Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SamyMerchi 03-26-08, 10:14 AM	I'm not going to upgrade to 4e, and since 3e is winding down (and I've got most of the 3e products I want) I'm starting to look back towards 1-2e. What would you guys say are the cream of the crop Forgotten Realms products for 1-2e? (including non-Faerūn: Kara-Tur, Zakhara, Maztica) Recommend something and tell me why you like that particular product? What does a DM get out of it? Since I run the mechanics with 3e, fluff material is probably more important to me than crunch material, though some crunch is easy to convert (maps!) and some crunch can be so good that it's worth the trouble of converting (neat monster/class ideas). Are Volo's guides better than the respective regional sourcebooks? For example, is "Volo's Guide to the North" better than "Waterdeep and the North"? Is "Volo's Guide to Whatever" better than "Whatever"? What's the difference between "Waterdeep and the North", "Savage Frontier", "City System" and "City of Splendors"? Are they redundant compared to each other and should a DM get just one, or do they supplement each other and a DM would find all to be useful? Cities of Mystery's description sounds a lot like a generic "Cityscape" book...in what ways is it FR-specific? What's the difference between "Pirates of the Fallen Stars" and "Sea of the Fallen Stars"? What's the difference between "Faiths and Avatars" and "Powers and Pantheons"? Are they just (vol.1) and (vol.2) of the same thing?
MarkusTay63 03-26-08, 02:06 PM	Anything by Steven Schend. Lands of Intrigue and Empires of the Shining Sea are two of the BEST RPG products ever produced - every page drips with adventure hooks.
SamyMerchi 03-26-08, 02:11 PM	Thanks! A great recommendation! I'll definitely check those two out!
Alediran 03-26-08, 03:02 PM	Evermeet: Island of Elves Cormanthor: Empire of Elves The best two sources of Faerūnian Elves.
MarkusTay63 03-26-08, 03:03 PM	If you like Elves... I guess. ;)
Thinblade 03-26-08, 03:04 PM	Ok, this is going to be fun. First, I second anything by Steven Schend. His name on a book is enough reason for me. Second, Pirates of the Fallen Stars is an older book, detailing the surface of Sea of Fallen Stars, pirate haunts, major pirate NPC's history of the pirates, etc. Some info on how Cormyr and Sembia fit into the picture, but it's primarily looking at the pirates (no surprise), and some ship combat. Sea of Fallen Stars (probably my favorite Steven Schend product) was published a number of years later and, while it has a quick update of the surface, and uses some of the NPC's introduced in PotFS, it's primarily concerned with everything under the surface. Sea elves, merfolk, locathah, sahuagin, and lots, lots more. GREAT book. Third, stay away from Maztica. It was a mediocre setting at best, and didn't get any support. There's a grand total of four things for it (which, I guess, is at least more than you can say for Chult). Zakhara, however, is much higher quality work and has more than double Maztica's products. If you want an Arabian setting, you won't go wrong with it. Kara-tur had, maybe, two books (well, three if you include The Horde), plus a couple of adventures. They were good books, but don't be surprised if you can't find a lot for it. Still, Kara-tur works much better on Toril than Rokugan does (not that I have anything against L5R... as long as it stays off Toril). Fourth, a number of 1e/2e books were cribbed from to create 3e books, and the 3e books were invariably of lower quality. The two most glaring are Underdark (copying from Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark - ignore the name if you're not a RAS fan, it's a GREAT guide), and Faiths and Pantheons (which tried to distill three 2e god books - Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons, and Demihuman Deities - into one book and failed. The orginal three are much better). IMO, The North is better than The Savage North (TN was 2e, and larger, TSN was 1e, and one of the first books published). Dwarves Deep has yet to be equalled for dwarven knowledge, but Elves of Evermeet is nowhere near its equal. The Arcane Age sourcebooks were an interesting experiment, and I wish more had been done. I like Cormanthyr and Fall of Myth Drannor more than Netheril and How the Mighty Are Fallen, but all four are worth reading (more Steven Schend in there). Finally, Volo's Guides have no crunch in them whatsoever. They're travelogues, going into extreme depth in various locations. You want to know all the inns of Cormyr? There are the books for you. Some people hate them, especially since Volo is a stereotypical unreliable narrator, but I really enjoy them. 3e has nothing even remotely like them. I'll stop here, but there's a lot more that's worth getting. 3e was really a pale shadow compared to 1e/2e, with only a couple of exceptions (Serpent Kingdoms comes to mind), and if 4e drives more people back to the old sources, well then at least it will have done one good thing.
Daenaan 03-26-08, 03:37 PM	Are Volo's guides better than the respective regional sourcebooks? For example, is "Volo's Guide to the North" better than "Waterdeep and the North"? Is "Volo's Guide to Whatever" better than "Whatever"? I can speak to the Volo guides as well. I have all of them (some as downloads), and they are excellent sources of material. They are, in fact, a major source for many of the 3-3.5 "sourcebooks", but as mentioned have no "crunch" at all. They're Greenwood doing what he does best: offering details and color of the Realms, and show the various Inns, festhalls, and other important places in various regions. Plus, they are written such that they're supposed to be published in the Realms and "available" in various large cities for purchase. So I'll give a new player the chance to read through them so they get the "gist" of a region - allow them the chance to say, "this place sounds neat... I'll use it as my home town" (or base of operations, that kind of thing). Most are available for purchase as pdfs (paizo sells some this way), making them even more accessible from a financial standpoint. Check the WotC archives site for pdf material before you buy, though. There are quite a lot of things still available on their site from editions 1-2 that are completely free pdfs. And not just Realms things, although "the North" and a couple of the Volo guides are there for free. I'd also like to recommend a little book called "Aurora's Whole Realms Catalog", which is like a department store catalog written Realms-style, with items and equipment for PCs to buy. Lastly, I'd agree with others who've said Steven Schend is a good buy. Also things written/designed by Jeff Grubb are great.
SamyMerchi 03-26-08, 03:48 PM	Thanks, guys! LOVE the recommendations! Eating them up like crazy. :) My guilty pleasure really is Maztica. I admit it, the boxed set isn't very...well, how should I say...it's not very high quality. But still, the concept, the setting, the idea...just the whole big picture of Amnian conquistadors wreaking havoc on the peaceful Payit...god, it's SUCH a setting FULL of adventure and conflict potential. My dream is making a Maztica 3e conversion someday...especially needed precisely *because* of the low quality of the original set...I firmly believe there's nothing wrong with the concept of Maztica...just the execution of the boxed set...
SamyMerchi 03-26-08, 04:13 PM	How are Elminster's Ecologies? What products, if any, have been completely superseded and included entirely or almost entirely in later products? What products should I look to avoid in that sense, so I won't buy an inferior product of something that was expanded later on?
Alediran 03-26-08, 04:22 PM	My dream is making a Maztica 3e conversion someday...especially needed precisely *because* of the low quality of the original set...I firmly believe there's nothing wrong with the concept of Maztica...just the execution of the boxed set... Sounds like a good project for The Realms Vault.
Stigger 03-26-08, 05:04 PM	Elminster's Ecologies weren't that bad... not that great, and I found them slightly difficult to parse for some reason, but the lore was pretty solid I thought. And definitely go with the Volo's Guides, as well as Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue... I use that book more than almost anything else. Personally though, one of my all-time favorites was the City of Splendors boxed set... the anemic contrast with the 3.5e version was just sad though. Cloak and Dagger was pretty good as well for fluffy stuff. I found Pages from the Mages, Prayers from the Faithful, The Magister, and The Seven Sisters to be really outstanding products as well, at least as far as fluff went... a lot of plot hooks in there if you look at them as inspiration points.
Another Gnome 03-26-08, 05:09 PM	Volo's Guides are definitely good reading, as long as you don't mind that every innkeeper and their cousin seems to have a golem or two stashed away in the back room, and that communities frequently have armed forces ten times the size of their civilian population. (Not being sarcastic, I do like Volo's Guides for the most part despite the odd eye-rolling moment, and there are some real gems to be found in them. Figuratively speaking.)
Thinblade 03-26-08, 05:35 PM	On the other hand, Volo is known for, shall we say, enlarging on the results of his spyin... ah... research. He makes the National Enquirer look like 60 Minutes. Take everything within with a huge grain of salt. It might be totally accurate, totally bogus, or anywhere in between. Stigger, I think you mean The Secrets of the Magister. The Magister was a 1e product with magical items and spells (most of which were updated in Pages from the Mages or other 2e books). Secrets of the Magister details the history of that special office of Mystra. If you've got a wizard player who wants to go for the "world's greatest mage" title (and doesn't mind having a lifespan that can be measured in months), SotM is great. There's a lot in there you can use even if the magister never appears in your campaign. Cloak and Dagger is a great source for villians of all kinds, as well as the, well, cloak and dagger kind of intrigue that groups like the Harpers often engage in. Elminster's Ecologies are good. I don't use them often, but when I do I'm glad I have them, though I find myself consulting the two appendices more often than the main box. Also, I wish they extended further (isn't that always the case). Hey, if you like the Maztica concept, run with it. You're right that it's a great source of adventure, especially in the first few years after the conquest. It's not my cup of tea, so I don't mention it much in my games.
Stigger 03-26-08, 05:43 PM	Ah, you are correct there Thinblade, I was referring to the Secrets of the Magister there. What I get for not actually looking at the bookcase when writing... :D Though I can't say I recall any instances in the Volo's guides where the armed forces were impossibly large, or where the size wasn't mostly due to a militia that wasn't normally stood up.
MarkusTay63 03-26-08, 05:44 PM	Maztica was probably one of the worst offenders of 2e, so if you like that, you should LOVE everything else 2e. :D You are right, in that it had potential, but the people in charge of developing that sub-setting really dropped the ball. The modules that came out for it flesh-out the region even more, but the quality and RW-copying is about the same as the boxed set. I own the box, and I bought the modules as downloads from Paizo, (http://paizo.com/store/games/roleplayingGames/d/dungeonsDragons/roleplayingGames/wizardsOfTheCoast) which I highly recommend, because at $4 a shot those old sources are a bargain. Also, if your going to to be looking into Kara-Tur, then I highly reccomend Ronin Challenge to go with it, which is probably THE BEST Kara-Tur source produced. Its not only an excellent adventure arc, but it also updates kara-Tur to 2e and details an entire new region! (The Larang Valleys)
SamyMerchi 03-26-08, 05:52 PM	That's fascinating! Exactly the kind of recommendation I was hoping for! An adventure that *also* serves as a rule/sourcebook? That's exactly the kind of info I might not have gotten from a product description on a sales site. Thanks!
Thinblade 03-26-08, 07:10 PM	+1 for Ronin's Challenge, although the title is something of a misnomer. Your characters don't have to be ronin, and are actually in Shou Lung, not Wa or Kozakura, so you wouldn't have ronin unless you imported one from the island nations. Of especial interest is the massive martial arts tournament at the beginning of the module that serves to set the story, flesh out an entire province (and its capital city) introduce recurring villians, and, of course, let your players have some fun booting people to the head.
Thinblade 03-26-08, 08:40 PM	Also, while not FR, I also highly recommend the 2e mega-adventure Night Below: An Underdark Campaign. It's generic D&D, but can be fairly easily placed into FR. Your PC's start with just a simple search for a missing person, and end up saving the world in the depths of the Underdark. Be warned, though. It is one of the nastiest adventures I've seen (ranking up there with A Paladin in Hell and Labyrinth of Madness), especially if you use 2e psionics the way the monsters are written. This is the system where a 1st level psionicist can dominate a 20th level paladin, with no save. Not for very long, of course, but long enough to walk him off a cliff. I ran the module years ago. I had a party of nine, and I mandated that at least half of them be either single or multiclass psioncists. Even so, only two of the original PC's survived to the end. It was getting so bad at one point it was like Dark Sun character trees. Great time, but not for the faint of heart.
Lord Karsus 03-27-08, 12:41 AM	-Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons, and Demihuman Deities were all great. I'm surprised they haven't gotten more praise, here.
Stigger 03-27-08, 01:42 AM	They're kind of a given for me actually... but you're correct, given the nature of the question that should be presumed.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-27-08, 11:13 AM	Most of the sourcebooks I love that I can think of have already been mentioned, but I'd like to say I find the Volo's Guides especially memorable and fun to read.:)
Zanan 03-27-08, 12:14 PM	-Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons, and Demihuman Deities were all great. I'm surprised they haven't gotten more praise, here. They are top of the lot, no doubt about that! Tons of detailed information, not just gods and religion, but also history and ideas for adventures. BTW, returning to the initial request, Powers & Pantheons is the third book of the so-called Faiths & Avatars series, detailing human deities who did not make it into Faiths & Avatars (demigods, certain pantheons (e.g., Mulhorand)). If you have those, you need nothing else on FR mythology. (That said ... you may want to look in the even older Monster Mythology for goblinoid and giant and illithid deities.)
Salick 03-27-08, 01:16 PM	-Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons, and Demihuman Deities were all great. I'm surprised they haven't gotten more praise, here. Faiths and Avatars was my favorite book of that era of Forgotten Realms. Details about the priests down to what they wear, when they pray, and individual religious holidays.
Faraer 03-27-08, 01:17 PM	Recommend something and tell me why you like that particular product? What does a DM get out of it?I would highlight Ed Greenwood's non-regional sourcebooks, including FR4 The Magister, FR11 Dwarves Deep, FOR2 The Drow of the Underdark, FOR4 The Code of the Harpers, The Seven Sisters, Volo’s Guide to All Things Magical, Prayers from the Faithful, Secrets of the Magister. You learn what the Realms is like, how it works, and direct and implied adventure hooks in great density and profusion. As well as the Steven Schend books, the religion trilogy, FRQ1 Haunted Halls of Eveningstar, Ruins of Undermountain and Myth Drannor.Are Volo's guides better than the respective regional sourcebooks? For example, is "Volo's Guide to the North" better than "Waterdeep and the North"? Is "Volo's Guide to Whatever" better than "Whatever"?It's not a matter of 'better', they're complementary. The Volo's Guides are detailed bottom-up location highlights, where the other sourcebooks are top-down social, historical and geographic overviews.What's the difference between "Waterdeep and the North", "Savage Frontier", "City System" and "City of Splendors"? Are they redundant compared to each other and should a DM get just one, or do they supplement each other and a DM would find all to be useful?City of Splendors incorporates FR1 Waterdeep and the North, minus its capsule adventures, and most of the information in the booklet that comes with City System (but not that box's multiple large-scale poster maps of the city). FR5 The Savage Frontier, Paul Jaquays's rendition of the Sword Coast North based on Ed's notes and his own creations, and much of Volo's Guide to the North are incorporated into The North.Cities of Mystery's description sounds a lot like a generic "Cityscape" book...in what ways is it FR-specific?In no ways.What's the difference between "Pirates of the Fallen Stars" and "Sea of the Fallen Stars"?One is about pirates, the other a much wider-ranging and more Realms-authentic book on the Inner Sea, its surrounding lands and especially its undersea realms.What's the difference between "Faiths and Avatars" and "Powers and Pantheons"?F&A covers the lesser and greater gods of the Faerūn pantheon, P&P its demigods and the other human pantheons.
Faraer 03-27-08, 01:31 PM	How are Elminster's Ecologies?I think they're negligible. Mostly written by unsuitable freelancers like Rick Swan who didn't know much about the Realms.What products, if any, have been completely superseded and included entirely or almost entirely in later products?You also don't need FR3 Empires of the Sands if you have Lands of Intrigue and Empires of the Shining Sea, or FR6 Dreams of the Red Wizards if you have Spellbound.Finally, Volo's Guides have no crunch in them whatsoever.They have appendices with all the additional rules (spells, magic items, selected NPC stats) you need to use their content in play. (And their information on wardmist is a crucial example to understanding the protective wards which are almost as important in Faerūnian magic as active spells.)They're travelogues, going into extreme depth in various locations. You want to know all the inns of Cormyr? There are the books for you.Careful, those aren't all the inns of Cormyr, but selected highlights (which bears on Another Gnome's oft-overstated point).Some people hate them, especially since Volo is a stereotypical unreliable narrator, but I really enjoy them.I've never read of anyone 'hating' the Volo's Guides.
Jiggawha 03-27-08, 01:44 PM	agreed on Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons, and Demihuman Deities, when you have that you can throw away the 3e version recommendations: Cloak and Dagger - details most important organizations Sea of Fallen Stars - for underwater play, top quality Empires of the Shining Sea City of Splendors boxed set Drizzit's Do'Urden's Guide to Underdark - essential for Underdark The North boxed set Spellbound boxed set - Unapproachable East is awful compared to it Dwarves Deep - old, but still essential for dwarves not that essential, personal favorites: Cormanthyr (arcane age) Elves of Evermeet Volo's Guide to all things Magical The Great Glacier The Wyrmskull Throne Code of the Harpers Giantcraft
Lord Karsus 03-27-08, 02:46 PM	agreed on Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons, and Demihuman Deities, when you have that you can throw away the 3e version -It's true. At this point, I only look at Faiths and Pantheons for the pictures. It does have a few things that the 2e deity books didn't have, though, like the Orcish Pantheon.
The_Shaman 03-28-08, 01:31 PM	I've seen a book called Player's Guide to the Forgotten Realms, is it any good?
MarkusTay63 03-28-08, 02:40 PM	Not so much - it was designed to update the campaign after the Time of Troubles, which caused a great many changes. Since the setting has evolved a great deal since tthen, most of that info is no longer neccessary. The only thing of any value I remember from it is some rules on Wild Magic Zones, and the rules for using firarms in the Realms (which became more common after the ToT). Edit: :doh: I was thinking of the Forgotten Realms Adventure hardcover from 2e... my bad. The one you are talking about is 3e, and it basically serves the same purpose, updating the setting from 3e to 3.5 (not really all that neccessary, IMHO).
Stigger 03-28-08, 04:15 PM	There was a fair amount of useful stuff in the Players Guide... nothing you can't live without though, Markus is right there. And FR Adventures was pretty cool for the city thumbnails it gave.
Faraer 03-28-08, 05:31 PM	-It's true. At this point, I only look at Faiths and Pantheons for the pictures. It does have a few things that the 2e deity books didn't have, though, like the Orcish Pantheon.The places of worship section is worthwhile, and to be fair to the authors, there's a fair amount of new information in the longer write-ups, but you have to dig for it and it's not enough to make F&P a first reference if you have the 2E trio.I've seen a book called Player's Guide to the Forgotten Realms, is it any good?PG2 Player's Guide to the Forgotten Realms is a decent novella interspersed with sidebars repeated from previous works. It's not a priority.Not so much - it was designed to update the campaign after the Time of Troubles, which caused a great many changes. Since the setting has evolved a great deal since tthen, most of that info is no longer neccessary.The edition-update material is a small part of the page count. Forgotten Realms Adventures is a fine work, and contains much information on cities (especially Sembian ones) and spells (including frequency tables) not duplicated elsewhere.
Lord Karsus 03-29-08, 12:28 AM	...but you have to dig for it and it's not enough to make F&P a first reference if you have the 2E trio. -The fact that three 200-300 page books were condensed into 1 300 page book, complete with more stats, and a little "adventure", says wonders.
Rauric 03-29-08, 08:38 AM	There was a fair amount of useful stuff in the Players Guide... nothing you can't live without though, Markus is right there. And FR Adventures was pretty cool for the city thumbnails it gave. This was my first FR rpg product I bought so I thought it was pretty decent at the time. I reread it a while back and still like it. There are several cities inside that are given some quick but useful details about who runs them and who really runs them. I always liked that part.
Stigger 03-29-08, 09:48 AM	Indeed... I do miss those write-ups, and it was a fairly big disappointment to me to see that 3.x ignored that basic format. The Local Lore section at the end of the entry was really helpful for me too I found. Tons of hooks in a lot of them.
MarkusTay63 03-30-08, 05:09 PM	Okay, I read it when I got it, and the two big things that stuck in my mind were the gun rules and wild magic stuff (both of which I had an interest in), so my 'memories' of said product could be a bit skewed. --- Sorry. I'll have to go back through that book if its as good as you guys are saying it is. :) The cover, of course, was PHENOMENAL, and reminds me (indirectly) of the cover of the 1e and 1st printing 2e Canpaign Setting boxes - the ever-vigilant hero astride his/her horse. It just evoked such a powerful feeling for the setting. Now, all the covers look like some washed-out, dark 'shadow-thing' taking place in a murky cave. :uh-huh: Not all of them - a few were really good, like Waterdeep (the cover - the book not so much). I think the covers of the sourcebooks are the single most important facet when trying to tell a potential reader what the setting is all about, and thats why I take umbrage to the over-abundance of 'dark' material on the covers. Thats not the Realms I know. :( I want to see the heroes back on the covers, not Szass Tam blowing away a group of Rashemi (even though the art was excellent). Art can be good, and still be inapproproate.
Stigger 03-30-08, 06:25 PM	Gun rules and Wild Magic... in there, but fairly insignificant in terms of pages devoted to them. It was the first place the idea of specialty priests were brought up as far as I know, and covered a fairly wide array of Faerunian cities in relatively good detail, generally over two facing pages with a decent map included. From what I recall, those two things took up about 2/3 of the book combined.
dave_the_DM 04-03-08, 01:44 PM	Volo's Guide to Waterdeep is my favorite, though the "guide to all things magical" tops a close second. Ruins of Undermountain, next. Between Volo, ROUM, city of splendors, ROUMII, etc. I've had enough material to run a game for a decade (and have).
The_Shaman 04-03-08, 06:34 PM	Edit: :doh: I was thinking of the Forgotten Realms Adventure hardcover from 2e... my bad. The one you are talking about is 3e, and it basically serves the same purpose, updating the setting from 3e to 3.5 (not really all that neccessary, IMHO). No, I'm very clear on this. It's a previous-edition book, might be that adventure you're speaking of - it starts with the description of the party from the view of one of its members - a HE cleric/mage. Come on, Markus, the 3.5 PGtF is one of the books I try to read up on a regular basis, I'm not getting the name wrong :P