Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dargoth 05-22-04, 01:12 AM	Well the complete divine web enhancment is out http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a The Good new is the Night Cloak and Dweomerkeeper have been updated (they ORIGIONALLY appeared in Faithes and Patheon. The article has of cause sucked all the FR life sucked out it. But it gets worse there is not even a mention of the PRCs orgionally appearing in the FR first infact the forgotten Realms isnt even mentioned in the article despite the fact they are FR PrCs. The Authors of complete Warrior at least had the common decentcy to say that Thayan knight was origionally from the FR. To add insult to injury From the web page that the WE is hosted "Need some new prestige classes to perk up your divine PCs and NPCs? Designers David Noonan and Skip Williams bring you four new prestige classes for divine characters, each with full statistics for a sample NPC. So what are you waiting for? Download this web enhancement and see what new directions your clerics and other divine spellcasters can go." It should be pointed out that neither Skip Williams OR David Noonan appear in the Credits for Faithes and Pantheons, so if I was Eric Boyd, Erik Mona, Richard Baker , Lettitia Boyd, Eric Haddock , Gwen Kestrel or Julia Martin Id be feeling pretty offended that some one else had claim their work for thir own.
Tempus665 05-22-04, 01:26 AM	I'm completely with you, Dargoth :mad: It's pretty disappointing to see everything FR be moulded into core.
mortellan 05-22-04, 01:30 AM	I'm completely with you, Dargoth It's pretty disappointing to see everything FR be moulded into core. I disagree. After everything FR has taken from the 'Core' it's nice to see them give back for once.
Dargoth 05-22-04, 01:36 AM	Originally posted by Tempus665 I'm completely with you, Dargoth :mad: It's pretty disappointing to see everything FR be moulded into core. yes its, Id infact go further and say its offensive and I have infact decided to Boycott WOTC Complete X and Races of X series of books
Chronomage 05-22-04, 01:45 AM	And I as well. It's not like theres anything in them so ingenious or useful. I'd call only 15% of the CW worthwhile for purchase, and about the same for CD. I got CW and ended up returning, and one look at CD was enough to convince me to purchase something else. The quality of WotC has fallen sharply it would seem. In fact, just to be clear: Let's boycott these books not because they reuse information from FR, but because they reuse information from everywhere and do so much trimming and rehashing theres no real purpose to the class for enjoyment or RP. Heck the only Warrior PrC I liked was the Dervish that used scimitars. Let's boycott these materials because we expect new and creative/exciting prestige classes and feats. Because we expect quality from WotC.
Purple Dragon Knight 05-22-04, 06:25 AM	I completely agree with you all on this. Now I hope some of you will understand my reasons for - long ago - boycotting all non-FR WotC publications... You have the FR team splitting its behind in 4 to create cool regional books with new feats and PrCs, just to get the Core book vultures rip off their work and sell it as "new" ?!? Give me a break! :censored: Not only the Core books are expensive, but they are unoriginal and devoid of flavor.
Bocklin 05-22-04, 06:38 AM	Even though I do not like to call this "boycott", I might aggree here. I rather think in terms of "targeted buying". :-) I mean: if we want WotC to put more resources into developing original material for the Forgotten Realms, it is important that they see that FR material sell at least as well as core products like the "Complete..." source books (or Eberron material). The only way to achieve this is for FR fans to pick up wisely their buys: support the FR and ignore the rest... except if it is REALLY good and can add value to our FR campaigns. If the buying pattern of enough customers show that kind of acquisition behaviour, then we might convince WotC that it is still worth investing in the FR... ;) Bocklin
Chronomage 05-22-04, 07:00 AM	Hey, I have an idea! Tomorrow let's show up here and not work! Just sit down read the paper in our bathrobe, and BURP whenever some pesky mod demands to know what we're doing. That'll teach em! *currently smoking in an easy chair and scratching the unmentionables*
Chronomage 05-22-04, 07:18 AM	More seriously: One thing that sets PrCs in the FR from other sources and/or worlds, is their level of commitment to the world. Each of them has a history and is not merely powergaming but provides real roleplaying oppurtunity. I looked at the PrCs in the CW and the CD and it made me gag. Without the FR, those classes are weak. The FR made them strong and infused them with a real intrinsic RP pull. Some can be strong on their own, but they belong in the FR.
Dargoth 05-22-04, 08:12 AM	What Will really p!ss me off is what I thinks going to happan to the Fire Knife Assasin PrC. The Fire Knife Assassin PrC was suppose to be in The Players guide to Faerun and Rich Baker said it would be published early next year.....I have a horriable suspecion that the Fire Knife PrC will never be published in an FR source book, it will instead be published in "Complete Thief" and if thats the case I will be royally ticked off
Chronomage 05-22-04, 08:20 AM	Somebody whispered to me they thought the same thing might come to pass. Here hoping not. If it does, I'll just sneak a copy out, photocopy it, and put it back on the rack. Of course, if any official type people are looking at this post, understand I only mean it as...a joke. Yeah, a joke. :twitch:
Herr Doktor 05-22-04, 05:19 PM	I don't see what else they could be slipping it into... Unless there is a Cormyr source book or Dragon Coast source book coming out early next year, which would be fun. I really wonder what they will be calling that inevitable roguish source book... Complete Sneaky Bastard. ;)
Cunning Linguist 05-22-04, 06:10 PM	Originally posted by Herr Doktor I really wonder what they will be calling that inevitable roguish source book... Complete Sneaky Bastard. I think it will be Complete Scoundrel, but that's just me. However, I agree, they could have given credit, where credit is due. The fact that they are saying things like: "Adaptation: Because the dweomerkeeper prestige class intentionally blurs the border between divine and arcane magic, making it specific to clerics of a deity of magic (such as Boccob or Wee Jas) is a good idea. " but not saying Mystra in there, well, it's just plain wrong! Atleast MM3 says it will have FR referance in it.
Gez 05-22-04, 07:35 PM	Yeah!!! That's awful!!! FR is getting ripped off!! We should all boycott WotC, that'll teach them!!! Nah, seriously, why is that such a problem? D&D is D&D is D&D. WotC is WotC. Why would WotC be unable to update and reprint WotC-made D&D material in a D&D book? Are you getting the flavor of these classes stolen by their reprinting? Does downloading this web-enhancement magically erase the classes from F&P? Granted, there could have been a little textbox akin to those in the Fiend Folio saying "Dweomerkeepers in the Forgotten Realms..."; but keep in mind it's a web-enhancement. In other words, a freebie. A bonus. They're bound to have less editing and "features" than the same content in a printed book. (For example, they practically never have any illustration. A map sometime, at best, that's all.)
Dargoth 05-22-04, 11:56 PM	Originally posted by Cunning Linguist I think it will be Complete Scoundrel, but that's just me. I was thinking Complete Plagerist might be more apporiate
Sammael_the_Chosen 05-23-04, 08:23 AM	WotC cannot plagiarize itself. FR is D&D, whether someone likes it or not. Credit would have been nice, but it's not required to play the game. If you play in the FR, you know where those classes came from anyhow, so what's the big deal?
Sancus 05-23-04, 04:26 PM	The big deal is that copying material from a book you've already published and calling it 'new' while simultaneously not giving credit to the original authors is not only untruthful and wrong, it's just plain disgusting.
Monsoon28 05-23-04, 05:45 PM	Correct me if i'm wrong. Isn't the Moon Guardian also a FR PrC? Followers of Selûne that even appeared in Black Wolf? If not then they sound just like the class that works for Selûne.
Boz Shulun 05-23-04, 09:45 PM	I hate when stuff is stolen from one world and given credit in another. Look at Bullywugs… Gibberlings…. Drow… Oops, I forgot that those were stolen from Greyhawk and credited to FR. My mistake.
Capn Charlie 05-23-04, 11:58 PM	Originally posted by Boz Shulun I hate when stuff is stolen from one world and given credit in another. Look at Bullywugs… Gibberlings…. Drow… Oops, I forgot that those were stolen from Greyhawk and credited to FR. My mistake. Touché.
Dargoth 05-24-04, 12:03 AM	Originally posted by Boz Shulun I hate when stuff is stolen from one world and given credit in another. Look at Bullywugs… Gibberlings…. Drow… Oops, I forgot that those were stolen from Greyhawk and credited to FR. My mistake. Gee I wonder how the people of the Faroes/Shetland ISlands feel about Gygax stealing their mythology and claiming he invented it.... Considering the Monster Manual is full of monsters ripped from real world mythology I find your claim that they all belong to Greyhawk, Highly amusing
Boz Shulun 05-24-04, 01:08 AM	Originally posted by Dargoth Gee I wonder how the people of the Faroes/Shetland ISlands feel about Gygax stealing their mythology and claiming he invented it.... *Holds up right hand* This is an apple. *Holds up left hand* This is an orange. ;) I was discussing the use of ideas being used within the same game, although I admit that my original post was a bit vague in that regard (my hypocrisy knows very little in the way of boundaries). Originally posted by Dargoth Considering the Monster Manual is full of monsters ripped from real world mythology I find your claim that they all belong to Greyhawk, Highly amusing Are you telling me that D&D isn't 100% original. I don't believe it. I wasn't saying that all the creatures in D&D (or myth) belongs to Greyhawk. I was just pointing out that it’s funny that people get so worked up about something that has been going on for a long time. Why is it so shocking now? Is it because that now things are beings taken from FR? Hey, get used to it. You think that Ebberon will not be using elements of FR or other established game worlds?
WizO_BigSister 05-24-04, 01:32 AM	This is getting a bit too heated ... lets all calm down a bit. *sprinkles flame retardent fairy dust, and sprays the thread with troll repellent* Can I also remind you that encouraging boycotts isn't allowed on this site. You are allod to say you don't like something ,and oyu are allowed to criticise what the WotC is doing ... just don't ask people to boycott anything, and don't set the place on fire with your complaints :) Thanks.
Boz Shulun 05-24-04, 02:09 AM	*Hisssssssssss* Oww mommy! That dust burns. Make it stop. :)
Dargoth 05-24-04, 02:21 AM	Originally posted by Boz Shulun I wasn't saying that all the creatures in D&D (or myth) belongs to Greyhawk. I was just pointing out that it’s funny that people get so worked up about something that has been going on for a long time. Why is it so shocking now? Is it because that now things are beings taken from FR? Hey, get used to it. You think that Ebberon will not be using elements of FR or other established game worlds? Now its a general attack on the uniqueness of the setting basiucly what there doing is stripping away the uniqueness of the setting making them the same and that goes not just for the FR but Greyhawk and Krynn as well. Greyhawk is to Gully Dwarves as Forgotten Realms is to Dracoliches as Krynn is to Draconions Back in the days of 2ed there was the Generic monster compendium which had monsters shared by all the worlds these where the Goblins, Drow, Bugbears which all the setting had. Then there where extra setting compendiums there was an FR setting compendium that had creatures like the Dracolich and Darkenbeast etc, Dragonlance had its own compendium with Draconions etc The Greyhawk Compendium had the Greyhawk Dragon etc. Each setting had monsters unique to it which made it special. Now getting to the orgional topic of knocked off FR PrCs rebadged as generic (and hence Greyhawk) PrCs Ask yourself this as a Greyhawk fan (Im assuming you play in that setting as you brought it up earlier) would you rather have a Greyhawk specfic "Knight of Furondy" PrC which reflects that nation history and flavour or would you rather be told by WOTC "You want a Knight PrC for Furondy?, Here this is a stripped down version of the Purple Dragon Knight from the Forgotten Realms setting weve removed all the FR content its incredable bland but you can use" I dont know about you but if I was a Greyhawk fan Id take option 1 The Knight of Furondy built from the ground up for the Greyhawk setting , but they may just be me. My big beef with WOTC at the moment is there making all the settings the same by recycling content, How long will it be until GReyhawk and the FR have armys of Draconion roaming the country side, how long will it be until Greyhawk and Dragonlance have Dracolichs or Good Drow or how long will it be until Dragonlance and the Forgotten realms have an evil warmongering nation led by the Demi god son of a Demon Lord?
Boz Shulun 05-24-04, 02:50 AM	First off, I applaud your passion. As for the use of a world specific classes, PrC or creatures… sure I think that an army of draconians marching across Sembia or Nyrond would be a joke. But the use of a PrC in a core book, like Thayan Knight, to be used in any campaign is not a bad thing. Sure, the name would have to be changed. But I’d rather have that than two separate sourcebooks with the same PrC but packaged for different worlds (i.e. in the FR book having the Purple Dragon Knight and in the GH book the same PrC be called the Knight of the Hart). For those who buy only FR or GH stuff, it wouldn’t be a big deal. But those of us who collect both, it would be a rip off. Also, I know a lot of GH fans that would be tickled pink if there were more GH things made available for use in other campaigns.
Shemeska the Marauder 05-25-04, 10:02 PM	I'll be nice and not get into the Planescape stuff 'used' in FR. ;) Play nice now mortals. :D
Mr. VanderMeer 05-26-04, 05:51 AM	I can still remember how proud many FR players were when FR PrC's, like the red wizard, appeared in the 3.5e. And now all of a sudden it is bad form. So, people who do not play in an FR campaign should not be given the opportunity to experience certain PrC's? I agree that trying to seel them as new stinks. But then again, we all know that the 'complete..' books are anything but original. But does the fact that these PrC's are re-published detract anything from the fun you have in your campaign?
Dargoth 05-26-04, 06:45 AM	Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder I'll be nice and not get into the Planescape stuff 'used' in FR. ;) Play nice now mortals. :D Given that Planescape was abolished its logical that the FR should inherit some its stuff like Planetouched given that the FR has places like Hellsgate Keep and Dragonspear Castle and events like the Time of Troubles and Dawn Catclysm.
Master of Mysteries 05-26-04, 07:17 AM	Its not bad form that FR stuff is appearing in Core Products. It's bad form that the authors who are rehashing the original work are'nt giving credit to the original authors. Web enhancement or not, it's not too much of a chore to add a sentence saying 'these PRC's first appeared in 'X', and are the result of original work of 'A, B & C' :behold:
Monsoon28 05-26-04, 08:51 AM	To add to what MoM said, the general angst is in that none of the forgotten realms history or flavor is added to the Prestige class. The characters are just written up, without a proper background and FR fans feel this is causing the PrC's to become bland. The above mentioned example of Red Wizard when it appeared in DMG 3.5, put some effort to crediting it origins. So while people could fit it into their own campaigns, they would be able to appreciate where the class came from. Now Moon Guardian is a PrC without any history or background, yet the class stems from the followers of Selûne. Where's the flavour of this class, where's the credit to it's FR? my 2 coppers...
Valgard 05-26-04, 12:26 PM	Originally posted by Master of Mysteries ...it's not too much of a chore to add a sentence saying 'these PRC's first appeared in 'X'... I agree with you. I'm relatively new to the FR World and I understand the importance of the uniqueness of some FR aspects. I don't see any problem in introducing these elements in core sourcebooks, but, as shown in the DMG v3.5 with the Red Wizard PrC, I think that there's no prolem in saying where it came from.
eclipticavatar 05-26-04, 01:07 PM	I think people whine too much.
Tempus665 05-26-04, 02:34 PM	Originally posted by eclipticavatar I think people whine too much. True, yet at some point the core-ification has to stop. Otherwise, it has no use labeling certain products Forgotten Realms. I'm not one for "whining", but I don't think stating your displeasure with a certain course of action can be considered whining. :)
Mystic Lemur 05-26-04, 06:04 PM	If you think about it, 'core' is just the PHB, MM, and DMG. When they came out (in 3rd edition) the default (core) setting was Greyhawk. Does that mean everything that was not labeled as FR was greyhawk?... sometimes. The original splatbooks had PrC's with flavor and background self contained.
saethar 05-26-04, 08:12 PM	What's really funny about this is how everyone (WotC, authors, etc...) always complain that crunch books sell better than flavor books... and then they take all the crunch from FR and release it in 'generic' books - so does anyone else get the feeling that the FR flavor books are gonna die a painful death of "not enough sales"? Last time I checked we've got 3 more books scheduled, 1 for this year and 2 for next... *Shrug* My 2 cp Saethar :b:
eclipticavatar 05-27-04, 12:13 AM	True, yet at some point the core-ification has to stop. Otherwise, it has no use labeling certain products Forgotten Realms. The 'core' is only 3 books.
Tempus665 05-27-04, 02:18 PM	Originally posted by eclipticavatar The 'core' is only 3 books. You know what I mean.