Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Butterface 12-21-07, 02:41 PM	They just posted an article explaining how these races were once the same but are now different. Fairly interesting, not much new info though. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20071221 They did confirm something about the FRCS though: "Drow As Player Characters With the release of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting in the summer of of '08, drow will be presented as a fully playable character race. Although drow as a race are a singularly wicked people, cruel and treacherous in their dealings with others, a smattering in every generation learn cooperation and the value of alliance. While some of these are merely cunning in their decision to gain the trust of others, a few truly come to value the positive aspects of camaraderie and friendship, sometimes even with those not of their own race. Play a drow if you * want to be good at skulking about, striking quick, and employing a variety of dirty tactics; * ?enjoy playing a hero in search of redemption and who struggles to rise above the wickedness of his people; * ?are considering a ranger, rogue, warlock."
Stigger 12-21-07, 03:39 PM	You can almost here the rumbling feet of all those future Drizzt clones... that's gonna make some folks ecstatic I'm sure... :D
Alediran 12-21-07, 03:51 PM	You can almost here the rumbling feet of all those future Drizzt clones... that's gonna make some folks ecstatic I'm sure... :D Yeah, I've already seen them. This only proves further what we've been telling the pro-4ed FR.
Stigger 12-21-07, 04:03 PM	Well, imitation is the highest form of praise and all... Feh, doesn't bother me either way. If someone really wants to play a Drizzt clone, it doesn't bother me in the slightest so long as they're enjoying themselves and not disrupting anyone elses enjoyment. Honestly, if someone brought one to a game of mine I wouldn't really be all that upset. Now if one of my other players started complaining about it being a Drizzt clone, etcetera and so forth, I'd be more upset at the guy who was complaining than the guy with the clone.
The Ubbergeek 12-21-07, 06:43 PM	I'm like him, for once - haters are more annoying to me than the Drizzt clone (or such...). Like Drow/elf/furry/etc hater is worse to me than the fan. Methink FR could use Eberron's approach for good result - cultures more than subraces, then. Only the Drow and Eladrin (for Moon/Star elves?) as distinct, the rest as cultures of the common elf.
johnkretzer 12-21-07, 07:03 PM	I don't know I would have done what they would have done differently... Elf= High elves(moon elf) Eldarin= Grey elves(sun elf) Drow=(dark elves or night elves) Grugach= Wild elves/ wood elves That would have atleast given a nod towards older versions of the game(high elf being a more cosompoltian race in regards to magic and nature and other races). Lets us hope the game is easy to fiddle with
The Ubbergeek 12-21-07, 07:16 PM	Thing is.... Elf is basicaly the wood/wild elf, rolled in one. The eladrin is the more feyish, city-like ones.
Stigger 12-21-07, 07:39 PM	Heh, I don't think I've ever thought to equate fey with the phrase city-like... quite the opposite really.
The Ubbergeek 12-21-07, 07:45 PM	Heh, I don't think I've ever thought to equate fey with the phrase city-like... quite the opposite really. Well, 'city' as in larger settings.... *shrugs* If you know Changeling; the Dreaming, I say the Eladrin are the noble Sidhe, the Titania and all kind of rl Elf myth.
Stigger 12-21-07, 07:59 PM	The Sidhe were generally pricks though... which could be perfect for Gold Elves really thinking about it...
The Ubbergeek 12-21-07, 08:26 PM	The Sidhe were generally pricks though... which could be perfect for Gold Elves really thinking about it... ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-21-07, 08:38 PM	I can definitely say that I love the art for this article, and the 4E art in general.
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 08:42 PM	Here's what I'd do with Elves in 4e: Sun Elves: Sun Elves Moon Elves: Moon Elves Wood Elves: Wood Elves Avariel: Avariel Aquatic Elves: Aquatic Elves Drow: Drow Star Elves: Star Elves Lythari:Lythari -While it might be a truth and given in our world, not all Elves were created equally.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-21-07, 08:51 PM	Here's what I'd do with Elves in 4e: Sun Elves: Sun Elves Moon Elves: Moon Elves Wood Elves: Wood Elves Avariel: Avariel Aquatic Elves: Aquatic Elves Drow: Drow Star Elves: Star Elves Lythari:Lythari HA!
The Ubbergeek 12-21-07, 09:32 PM	Here's what I'd do with Elves in 4e: Sun Elves: Sun Elves Moon Elves: Moon Elves Wood Elves: Wood Elves Avariel: Avariel Aquatic Elves: Aquatic Elves Drow: Drow Star Elves: Star Elves Lythari:Lythari -While it might be a truth and given in our world, not all Elves were created equally. No offence, but you should read what Baker (?) said on why he took the 'subraces' as cultures path for Eberrron. He made good points that even GothicDan liked.
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 10:38 PM	No offence, but you should read what Baker (?) said on why he took the 'subraces' as cultures path for Eberrron. -Never read it, I don't think. But, regardless, I might be in the minority, but I like the concept of subraces. As I said before, Elves aren't created equally. It's as simple as that. Sun Elves are physiologically and anatomically different from Moon Elves, Wood Elves, Aquatic Elves, Avariel, and so on. Elf is the generic term, and Sun, Moon, Star are all prefixes that denote specificity. He made good points that even GothicDan liked. -Gothicwho? That punk doesn't know what he's talking about. I oughta beat him up...That'll show him.
The Ubbergeek 12-21-07, 11:01 PM	Thing is... even if you invocate the divine creation clause, somes of those subraces are really too close to have distinct stats, really. Avariels, by example, are mostly high elves with wings, if I remember well.
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 11:15 PM	Thing is... even if you invocate the divine creation clause, somes of those subraces are really too close to have distinct stats, really. Avariels, by example, are mostly high elves with wings, if I remember well. -Nope. They have hollow bones like birds, allowing them to fly, but making them more dexterous and fragile. Their ability of flight also comes with a hyperdeveloped sense of sight. -You could theoretically apply the 'Winged' Template to a Sun, Moon, or Wood Elf to create an Avariel, statwise, but at that point, you might as well just give them seperate stats. -If they came out and said something along the lines of, "Sun, Moon, Wood and Star Elves all have the same stats, but were all distinct Sun, Moon, Wood and Star Elves", I wouldn't be too miffed. But, they're not doing that.
MerrikCale 12-21-07, 11:30 PM	-If they came out and said something along the lines of, "Sun, Moon, Wood and Star Elves all have the same stats, but were all distinct Sun, Moon, Wood and Star Elves", I wouldn't be too miffed. But, they're not doing that. Well, how can they not do that in the Realms stuff. Are they going to wipe out races of elves?
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 11:32 PM	Well, how can they not do that in the Realms stuff. Are they going to wipe out races of elves? -I have no clue what they are doing. What I assume they are going to do is turn Wood Elves into 'Elves', Sun, Moon and Star Elves into 'Eldarin', and leave Aquatic, Winged and Lythari Elves hanging, for the time being. -Basically it's going to come down to this: Faerūnian Elves are called Wood Elves. Faerūnian Eladrin are called Sun Elves, Moon Elves and Star Elves. But, even though they are called Eladrin (though, not really, as per FR lore), they are actually Elves (though, not really, as per the 4e rules). :crazy: -Now, how is that not confusing for a new player?
MerrikCale 12-21-07, 11:33 PM	-I have no clue what they are doing. What I assume they are going to do is turn Wood Elves into 'Elves', Sun, Moon and Star Elves into 'Eldarin', and leave Aquatic, Winged and Lythari Elves hanging, for the time being. Fair enough. But there will still be both Sun and Moon elves in the Realms, I would assume
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 11:36 PM	Fair enough. But there will still be both Sun and Moon elves in the Realms, I would assume -According to lore, yes; according to rules, no.
MerrikCale 12-21-07, 11:44 PM	frankly, I'm more interested in lore at this point
The Ubbergeek 12-21-07, 11:57 PM	Eberron's baker, who for once I agree with, stated that the humans should not be the only ones who have 'cultures' and all, and so we should perhaps keep subraces for real divergent beings - like drow. Now, that means - we could separate in the stats and all what is 'nature' and 'culture'. All similar groups could habe the same 'nature' side of stats, but posisble varying 'culture' bits - like Baker gives a few weapons to the Valenar Elves, and some other skills to the Aereni. I think. It wouldn't destroy the Realms's special groups - just from one subrace for everything (which is, to be honest, often silly), they would be cultural groups and packages.
Lord Karsus 12-22-07, 01:22 AM	Eberron's baker, who for once I agree with, stated that the humans should not be the only ones who have 'cultures' and all, and so we should perhaps keep subraces for real divergent beings - like drow. -Truthfully, though it sounds awfully racist, I'd like to see Human subraces with different stats, like Tethryian, Chondathan, Rashemi, and so on.
The Ubbergeek 12-22-07, 01:54 AM	-Truthfully, though it sounds awfully racist, I'd like to see Human subraces with different stats, like Tethryian, Chondathan, Rashemi, and so on. This model could work with cultures. Regional feats 2,0, albeit more suggested common feats and all that, perhaps?
Lord Karsus 12-22-07, 02:14 AM	This model could work with cultures. Regional feats 2,0, albeit more suggested common feats and all that, perhaps? -Skills and feats, sure, but also stats. The Rashemi, for instance, have a long tradition of berserkers and survival and all of that. As a result, they have an inherent +1 to CON, or STR, something like that. The Halruaans have an inherent +1 bonus to INT. Like that.
The Ubbergeek 12-22-07, 02:21 AM	No. First, it's a dangerous can of worms. Second, iT's all Humans, as all elf 'subraces' should be just elves. The biological barely change in our real world 'phenotypes', so why distinct stats? No stats changes, except the 'cultural' bits.
Lord Karsus 12-22-07, 02:52 AM	No. -Yes. First, it's a dangerous can of worms. -Yes, which is why I said it's something that'd never get picked up. Second, iT's all Humans, as all elf 'subraces' should be just elves. The biological barely change in our real world 'phenotypes', so why distinct stats? No stats changes, except the 'cultural' bits. -Genetics is still a very "hazy" science. There is much that we don't know. All that aside, certain racial groups have certain racial characteristics. South Asians, for instance, are shorter than most Westerners, due to genetics. Native Africans, and their descendents are Black, due to genetics. Us Ashkenazi Jews got big noses. Point is, while perhaps ability modifiers might be too extreme in some cases, skills are something that vary from racial group to racial group, due to inherent biology and physiology. A "schmoo" raised among the "schmoe" is still going to exibit "schmoo" racial characteristics.
The Ubbergeek 12-22-07, 02:54 AM	Again, NO. This is stupid. like giving full, tangible things like -2 Str to girls. >> The stats things should be given if there was SERIOUS phenotype differences, like in dogs. Hence why I say the 'cultural' bits.
Lord Karsus 12-22-07, 03:06 AM	Again, NO. This is stupid. like giving full, tangible things like -2 Str to girls. >> -Again, yes. I don't mind the idea, so, frankly, I don't care what you have to say. It makes sense in my mind, and that's all it needs to. -And, yes, men and women are physiologically and anatomically different, if you didn't know. Might want to ask someone else about that, 'cause I really don't feel like explaining. That's a conversation I hope I'll never have.
GreenKnight 12-22-07, 03:13 AM	-And, yes, men and women are physiologically and anatomically different, if you didn't know. Might want to ask someone else about that, 'cause I really don't feel like explaining. That's a conversation I hope I'll never have. Unless you have kids. :P "Don't look at magazines with naked pictures of women, Karsus Jr., or you'll be turned to stone!"
DreamStalker 12-22-07, 03:15 AM	Actually I've always disliked the subrace system to some degree despite liking it in certain ways. As it was in in previous editions, I agree that there should have been more human subraces. So far we have only had a few really. Personanlly I would most have liked to see something like Elves in general as one race with the ethnicities pointed out (Sun elf, Moon elf, Sylvan elf, ect.) whereas blatant and far reaching changes are subraces (Avariel, Lythari, Drow post transformation). In addition to that, i wouldn't want to see "training" and more psychological tendencies statted out for the races either. instead i would rather see that in a cultural template that represents that sort of thing. Just my opinion I have had since second edition:)
The Ubbergeek 12-22-07, 03:15 AM	Not enough Karsus in both cases to warrant special stats (except for minor racial changes like Half-drow's darkvision and possible avarial changes - still....). Dream, it's what Eberron got, and what is in work, at least on the culling of reducdant subraces stats.
Lord Karsus 12-22-07, 03:21 AM	Unless you have kids. :P "Don't look at magazines with naked pictures of women, Karsus Jr., or you'll be turned to stone!" -That's got to be even more awkward. On one hand, you want them to be...manly(?), but on the other hand, you don't want them to do that. So paradoxical, parenthood. I hope I'll be able to avoid that bullet for many, many years, if not forever. Not enough Karsus in both cases to warrant special stats (except for minor racial changes like Half-drow's darkvision and possible avarial changes - still....). -In your opinion.
GreenKnight 12-22-07, 03:23 AM	-In your opinion. Eladrin, from all appearances, will be getting +2 Dex, +2 Int. And the only mechanical difference between Moon Elves and Sun Elves is that one has a +2 Dex, while the other has a +2 Int. With Eladrin encompassing both, is there any reason to differentiate them mechanically?
The Ubbergeek 12-22-07, 03:24 AM	Not in my opinion, in D&D's interpretation. You also forget that D&D's stats also are a medium.
The Ubbergeek 12-22-07, 03:25 AM	Eladrin, from all appearances, will be getting +2 Dex, +2 Int. And the only mechanical difference between Moon Elves and Sun Elves is that one has a +2 Dex, while the other has a +2 Int. With Eladrin encompassing both, is there any reason to differentiate them mechanically? As far I know, culturaly, they are even not very different. One is the traditionalist 'elite' branch and the other a more liberal and open branch of the same primordial stock.
GreenKnight 12-22-07, 03:27 AM	Yeah. Most of their differences really amounts to culture and physical appearance. That's it. Not like we're talking of a difference as drastic as that between a Sun Elf and an Avariel, or Aquatic Elf. Whatever the case, their differences are minute enough that it doesn't really justify getting classified as a separate subrace with different mechanics and everything.
johnkretzer 12-22-07, 04:10 AM	The thing is geneticaly there are three races of men.(I am not saying anyone of then is superior or anything like that but it is the truth). Caucasins are better adapted to live in colder regions then Africans who are better at living in hotter regions etc. Sure these are very minor differences but elves and the others are fantasy races. Heck even in nature animal different breeds of dogs can be called subraces...(should a big dog have the same racial traits as a small dog? Should any dog match a greyhound for speed? Sure it is possible but it is the exception). Now throw in the magical and just a different genetic background of a fantasy world and to me atleast subraces start to make alot more sense. Also alot of these racial traits are cultural in nature....weapon profiencies, skill bonuses, abilioties that help focus in certain classes, etc. And to me moon elves and gold elves don't have the same culture. They are as likely to become a ranger as a wizard. Making high elves just like gold elves completely changes them in my opinion. Also high elves were the best archers of the elves...now it isn't so....(unless Eldarin get really good archery bonuses). I don't mind what they are doing to a point...but they should have had just divided the race into 4 parts initialy...I can atleast be happy that I now don't have to go and create elves as a PC race.
johnkretzer 12-22-07, 04:12 AM	As far I know, culturaly, they are even not very different. One is the traditionalist 'elite' branch and the other a more liberal and open branch of the same primordial stock. um...sure gold elves don't have as much reverence for nature as moon elves...moon elves are better archers...moon elves are not at all share the attitude towards other races that gold elves(and eldarin share)...etc. I see a world of differences.
GreenKnight 12-22-07, 04:21 AM	Heck even in nature animal different breeds of dogs can be called subraces...(should a big dog have the same racial traits as a small dog? Should any dog match a greyhound for speed? Sure it is possible but it is the exception). That isn't comparable at all. How do differences between these two... http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/282231/2260377dogs.jpg ...justify differences between these two? http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/282231/2260378elves.jpg Also alot of these racial traits are cultural in nature....weapon profiencies, skill bonuses, abilioties that help focus in certain classes, etc. Some like Charisma can be cultural, but not Intelligence or Dexterity. Are we to believe that the most agile Sun Elf in existence isn't as good as the most agile Moon Elf, while the most intelligent Moon Elf isn't as smart as the most intelligent Sun Elf? That Sun Elves are no more agile then humans, despite having an elvish frame and physiology?
johnkretzer 12-22-07, 04:47 AM	That isn't comparable at all. How do differences between these two... ...justify differences between these two? (Snip picture as to not make thread really long) Actualy the fact that there is just a extreme diffence can exist...minor ones can exist as well...and more likely too. Also I am talking about minor differences here. a +2 here or there not what would probably equate to me as the difference of +4 to a -4.... Some like Charisma can be cultural, but not Intelligence or Dexterity. Are we to believe that the most agile Sun Elf in existence isn't as good as the most agile Moon Elf, while the most intelligent Moon Elf isn't as smart as the most intelligent Sun Elf? That Sun Elves are no more agile then humans, despite having an elvish frame and physiology? Actualy I never mentioned stat adjustment as cultural differences...:confused: But I would say two thing in this regard. 1)Intelligence as defined by D&D(well atleast 3.x) can be effected by culture. A culture that encourages intelligence will be on the average smarter then ones that don't. 2) Well if you define intelligence atleast partialy based on genetics then yes it would. A +2 is a very minor bonus that it wouldn't effect brain size that much etc. Also alot of non visible thing physicaly can effect dexterity...so that picture above sure they can be more geneticaly suited for int. or dex and look pretty much the same... Who says that sun elves and moon elves share the exact same physiology? There stat bonuses would indicate differences. I would also like to add I have no problem with the stat bonus of elf(though I miss the penalties)
GreenKnight 12-22-07, 04:59 AM	Actualy I never mentioned stat adjustment as cultural differences...:confused: The one and only difference mechanically between Moon Elves and Sun Elves is their stat bonuses. So if you weren't talking about that, then what were you talking about? 1)Intelligence as defined by D&D(well atleast 3.x) can be effected by culture. A culture that encourages intelligence will be on the average smarter then ones that don't. There's a difference between a member of a society being smarter on average then a member of another society, and a member of a society being so different as to achieve levels of intelligence that are impossible for members of another society. The cultural difference between Sun Elves and Moon Elves, for instance, can be explained away by just shuffling around their base array (Which is 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13). So the average Sun Elf, for instance, can have the following statblock (this is taking into account the +2 Dex, +2 Int bonus that Eladrin will likely get): Str 12, Dex 11, Con 8, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 11 While a Moon Elf could have this statblock: Str 12, Dex 15, Con 8, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 11 And there you go. Culturally, Sun Elves favor Intelligence over Dexterity, while culturally, Moon Elves favor Dexterity over Intelligence. 2) Well if you define intelligence atleast partialy based on genetics then yes it would. A +2 is a very minor bonus that it wouldn't effect brain size that much etc. Two points is a big deal. The strongest human can lift 100 lbs. less then the strongest Half-Orc, all based on two points of difference. How much more noticeable is the difference between one Elf with Int 18 and another with Int 20? Also alot of non visible thing physicaly can effect dexterity...so that picture above sure they can be more geneticaly suited for int. or dex and look pretty much the same... How much sense does that make? They look identical to each other, yet Sun Elves are physically closer to humans then Moon Elves? Who says that sun elves and moon elves share the exact same physiology? There stat bonuses would indicate differences. In which case they should look different, but they don't.
johnkretzer 12-22-07, 05:59 AM	In which case they should look different, but they don't. Why? What scientifucal proof to have for this assertion? I mean if you look into science they are a dozen examples that show things can vary physiologicaly and look the similar.
johnkretzer 12-22-07, 06:09 AM	The one and only difference mechanically between Moon Elves and Sun Elves is their stat bonuses. So if you weren't talking about that, then what were you talking about? Sure in 3.x you are right...I didn't like it then and I don't like it now. (Now there is no difference culturaly or geneticaly) Two points is a big deal. The strongest human can lift 100 lbs. less then the strongest Half-Orc, all based on two points of difference. How much more noticeable is the difference between one Elf with Int 18 and another with Int 20? Ummm the strongest human (at str 18) can lift a total at 100lbs and be considered a light load. A half-orc can lift about 133lb and still have it be a light load. 33lbs is a minor difference(that is 16.5 lb per point.) So just as minor as different. Though as I said stats bonus for races I would do completely away with...and reflect this in another way with stat generation. If you are using the method I use(4d6 drop the lowerst one) for a stat your race favors you roll 5d6 drop the lowest two) For point buy: Races get a minor discount for their stats point cost for favor stats. That I think would be more reflective on cultural and genetic effects on stats...
GreenKnight 12-22-07, 06:26 AM	Why? What scientifucal proof to have for this assertion? I mean if you look into science they are a dozen examples that show things can vary physiologicaly and look the similar. It's not as if we're talking about Avariels or Aquatic Elves, here. The only physical difference between Moon Elves and Sun Elves is skin, hair, and eye color. That's not enough to say that their stats should be so different. Sure in 3.x you are right...I didn't like it then and I don't like it now. (Now there is no difference culturaly or geneticaly) You don't need different mechanics to have a different culture. Ummm the strongest human (at str 18) can lift a total at 100lbs and be considered a light load. A half-orc can lift about 133lb and still have it be a light load. 33lbs is a minor difference(that is 16.5 lb per point.) So just as minor as different. Look at the difference between heavy loads. The strongest human, lifting the absolute most he can, can lift 100 lbs. less then the strongest half-orc. That's a huge difference.
Reneshat 12-22-07, 07:51 AM	Sure in 3.x you are right...I didn't like it then and I don't like it now. (Now there is no difference culturaly or geneticaly) Okay, I'm lost here, but what says there will be no cultural difference? I read the blurb, and sure it grouped them all together, however Rich said that you would most likely use Eladrin stats for Moon and Sun elves, and Elven stats for the others. He never said they would eliminate cultural differences, but simply that you would use the same stat block. My guess is it will still talk about the difference between the two culturally in the FR books. It's too prominent in the Realms to not be there because of a Spellplague, really this is simply a mechanics thing, not a fluff thing. We don't even know yet whether or not there will be options or suggestions for certain Realm sub-races to make your moon elf more like a moon elf, or your sun elf more like a sun elf. I think this is a case of jumping a bit to much to the conclusion.
johnkretzer 12-22-07, 12:28 PM	It's not as if we're talking about Avariels or Aquatic Elves, here. The only physical difference between Moon Elves and Sun Elves is skin, hair, and eye color. That's not enough to say that their stats should be so different. And I am saying that there doesn't have to be visiable differences physicay that is easy to see, as far as I know there hasn't been a autopsey performed on the sub races of elves. For instance I have cordination problems due to brain damage. I am handicapped because of this. There is nothing phyiscaly that would show that I wouldn't be as dextreous as a average person(and I am probably also capped in what I can do). The differences between moon elves and sun elves could be how there brains function, didn't just developed in different ways. So why would that be physicaly effect their appearence?
johnkretzer 12-22-07, 12:29 PM	Okay, I'm lost here, but what says there will be no cultural difference? I read the blurb, and sure it grouped them all together, however Rich said that you would most likely use Eladrin stats for Moon and Sun elves, and Elven stats for the others. He never said they would eliminate cultural differences, but simply that you would use the same stat block. My guess is it will still talk about the difference between the two culturally in the FR books. It's too prominent in the Realms to not be there because of a Spellplague, really this is simply a mechanics thing, not a fluff thing. We don't even know yet whether or not there will be options or suggestions for certain Realm sub-races to make your moon elf more like a moon elf, or your sun elf more like a sun elf. I think this is a case of jumping a bit to much to the conclusion. That is true...but to me the differences between grey elves and high elves have always existed at core as well.
Redrake 12-22-07, 12:36 PM	Drizzt clones galore.:rofl: AFAIK, even RAS resents that and makes fun of it.
msatran 12-22-07, 02:03 PM	Well, for once, I agree with Ubergeek. Cultural anthropology is tricky, but this can only end in tragedy if you start creating gender divisions.
johnkretzer 12-22-07, 04:34 PM	I would like to add something...I really don't think they did that bad of a job with elves so far(their take on the creation myth is uninspiring to me, I'll stick to the old one). I just think it would have been better if they broke the elven races like so... Drow: Drow (duh ;) ) Eldarin: Grey elves(or gold elves) Elf: High Elves( or moon elves) Grugach: Wild and wood elves. Pretty much all they really did was just not call the sub-races x elves. I just think it is a mistake to lump together high elves and gold elves(for one thing I think it makes more sense for high elves to get a Cha bonus then a Int bonus being more open and accepting of other races). I am actualy been the best news I have about 4th edition as of yet(though not very good) It means I only have to create and balance a new race in a brand new system...
The Ubbergeek 12-22-07, 06:59 PM	Elf should regroup wild, wood Eladrin sun and moon and drow affar. (the others as npc things with slight difference like featrs, perhaps.)
GothicDan 12-22-07, 08:01 PM	Remember, guys: real world genetics do not apply to Faerunian Elves. Case in point is the lack of true hybrids. So let's not try to apply biological 'sense' in analyzing statistic differences between subraces. Simply put, there ARE and always have been statistical differences, for whatever reasons - do NOT apply biology to it. At least, not our real world understandings of biology. That would be like me trying to use real world physics to explain why casting Fireballs "Doesn't make sense."
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 12:52 AM	So let's not try to apply biological 'sense' in analyzing statistic differences between subraces. Simply put, there ARE and always have been statistical differences, for whatever reasons - do NOT apply biology to it. At least, not our real world understandings of biology. -In many cases, you have to, since differences are biological/physiological.
The Ubbergeek 12-23-07, 01:39 AM	A fantasy world may not obey our very laws of nature, there must be verssimilitude and logic. And elves are still very much corporal beings, with a body - a biology. And strangely enough, they can breed with humans...
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 01:44 AM	And elves are still very much corporal beings, with a body - a biology. And strangely enough, they can breed with humans... -Donkeys can breed with horses, and Tigers can breed with lions, so it's not like crossbreeding is something entirely foreign. The results- Mules and Ligers- are much different than Half-Elves, as they are not viables, self-sustaining races themselves, but the basic point remains. -I'd like it if Half-Elves were sterile. That, I think, would add immensely to the air of "lonliness" the race has.
Dark Wizard 12-23-07, 01:56 AM	Poor Half-elves, they never get anything.
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 02:08 AM	Poor Half-elves, they never get anything. -Well, in my scenario, they'd get the ability to engage in sexual activity without any of the possible side effects (such as pregnancy). Doesn't seem that bad, when you look at it from that point of view. ;)
Redrake 12-23-07, 02:32 AM	Poor Half-elves, they never get anything. Indeed. It is why I tend to like 2E a lot more. :) Perhaps they should at the very least gain a +2 Charisma, instead of +2 Diplomacy. It is not like Half-elves are not considered attractive.
Kenzuki 12-23-07, 07:43 AM	-Well, in my scenario, they'd get the ability to engage in sexual activity without any of the possible side effects (such as pregnancy). Doesn't seem that bad, when you look at it from that point of view. ;) They'de still could get a bad case of the krabs though.
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 10:41 AM	They'de still could get a bad case of the krabs though. -Meh, that's what Remove Disease is for. Everyone complains that everyone in Faerūn is a high level NPC, so it shouldn't be any problem to find a Cleric strong enough to cast that spell. ;)
GothicDan 12-23-07, 10:55 AM	And note that Ligers ARE physiologically different than either Tigers or Lions - they're larger than both due to the interaction of genes that shouldn't naturally go together. So they'd have stat modifiers that neither of the parents did. So let's remember that us laymen don't even know how real biology works, let alone FR biology. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-23-07, 05:40 PM	-I'd like it if Half-Elves were sterile. I wouldn't.:(
Rauric 12-23-07, 07:16 PM	I love the fact that everyone is having a conversation and not sanpping at each other. Tis a Christmas Miracle!!!!;) I would offer my two cents but this discussion is waaay over my head. Carry on, I'm loving it.
Stigger 12-23-07, 07:37 PM	Why should half-elves be sterile? That makes almost no sense to me...
The Ubbergeek 12-23-07, 07:59 PM	Why should half-elves be sterile? That makes almost no sense to me... In biology, to have hybrids, the two parents's races must be close enough - but a slight difference may make the hybrids sterile - like mules. The exact details and rules on how and why, I can't exactly remember them. half-elves and half-orcs (ogres, dragons, etc...) could be in theory sterile individuals, by science.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-23-07, 09:42 PM	Good thing science doesn't apply in the world of D&D. I'm very happy creating fecund half-elves.
MarkusTay63 12-24-07, 12:04 AM	Half-Elven mules? Arrrgh! :( Anyone read Asimov's Foundation Trilogy? You don't want to make them mules!
msatran 12-24-07, 10:47 AM	Hey, I once saw someone get polymorphed into a Liger. It was one of the meanest things I've ever done. They got turned into a liger while falling, and hit the ground (As a liger) to encounter the Black Pudding at the bottom of the pit. The only response was "Mother told me there'd be days like this."
GothicDan 12-25-07, 12:13 AM	Awesome quote.
Lord Karsus 12-25-07, 01:53 AM	I wouldn't.:( -Well, everyone has different tastes. Why should half-elves be sterile? That makes almost no sense to me... -Well, firstly, I don't have a problem with a 'Half-Elf' as a race. I don't like the idea of 'Half'Elven' culture, or society, or anything. If it were up to me, Half-Elves would either be sterile (as any of these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liard_%28animal%29) are), or produce either Elven or Human children, depending on whatever the other mother/father is.
Stigger 12-26-07, 03:18 AM	I tend to see it as magic and biology producing something completely new when the two are combined... kinda hard to expect hard biological rules for a race that only exists in fiction as far as we know.
Lord Karsus 12-26-07, 03:38 AM	I tend to see it as magic and biology producing something completely new when the two are combined... kinda hard to expect hard biological rules for a race that only exists in fiction as far as we know. -I'm just using precidence to argue that my beliefs aren't wacky and off the wall, that's all.
Stigger 12-26-07, 04:05 AM	No, hardly wacky or off the wall, just not something I'd like to see introduced. Otherwise it would seem like a cruel joke on a happy couple from both Sune and Hanali....
Lord Karsus 12-26-07, 04:27 AM	No, hardly wacky or off the wall, just not something I'd like to see introduced. Otherwise it would seem like a cruel joke on a happy couple from both Sune and Hanali.... -Don't worry. In 4e, there won't be Sune and Hanali. :thumbsup: :rolleyes:
Stigger 12-26-07, 04:29 AM	Ah, right... silly of me to forget that one.
Lord Karsus 12-26-07, 04:58 AM	Ah, right... silly of me to forget that one. -Ah, that's because you haven't been reconditioned yet...:mymy:
Stigger 12-26-07, 12:36 PM	Sure I have, its just that my wife's conditioning overrides other forms of it... :blink:
GothicDan 12-26-07, 12:59 PM	Poor, poor straights.
Stigger 12-26-07, 02:15 PM	Hah! Its hardly an affliction of just the straights... suppose you don't have enough life experience to know that just yet though youngling. :P ;) :D
Alediran 12-26-07, 03:12 PM	Hah! Its hardly an affliction of just the straights... suppose you don't have enough life experience to know that just yet though youngling. :P ;) :D I agree.
Lord Karsus 12-26-07, 03:22 PM	-I'll take it no one wants to be reconditioned right now...? :mymy:
sn0wcrash 12-27-07, 03:13 PM	-Genetics is still a very "hazy" science. There is much that we don't know. All that aside, certain racial groups have certain racial characteristics. Well its not as hazy as people think- but that said it is not really that obvious what a "racial trait" is other than some very obvious physical characters- and those usually segregate within the racial populus.. I just wanted to say it is not really realistic to assume that all individuals from a certain "race" will have the same attributes.
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 03:35 PM	I just wanted to say it is not really realistic to assume that all individuals from a certain "race" will have the same attributes. -Sure it is. Barring random mutations, all Tweeds will breed to have characteristics like other Tweeds, while all Thneeds will breed to have characteristics of other Thneeds. The Pudnit Square (or whatever it is called) allows for only so much variation from one's parents, and them from their parents, and so on.
sn0wcrash 12-27-07, 03:55 PM	-Sure it is. Barring random mutations, all Tweeds will breed to have characteristics like other Tweeds, while all Thneeds will breed to have characteristics of other Thneeds. The Pudnit Square (or whatever it is called) allows for only so much variation from one's parents, and them from their parents, and so on. Punnet square that is ;) And only if "pure-breeding" parents are "crossed" As far as the D&D worlds go- goodly races are out-breeding with each other, right? How far and wide this out breeding goes- is unknown. I have never heard any elf boasting about being pure-blood so far? When I used to play regular table-top campaigns we used to use these long attribute tables of random attributes for our characters- I don't remember where it came from but it was not cannon. For each character you first rolled from a list of attributes and then a percent chance which had racial modifiers (the percentage that is). I think this is a very reasonable common ground for those who wants to use racial attributes versus those who don't.
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 04:00 PM	Punnet square that is ;) -Yeah, that one! I thought there was a 'D' in there, which is why I couldn't find the proper spelling. And only if "pure-breeding" parents are "crossed" -Not necessarily. Plug in the possible traits of both parents. In a fantasy setting, you might get something more akin to a Pennet Rectangle, though. But, the basic premise of it remains the same. I have never heard any elf boasting about being pure-blood so far? -Open your eyes, then, 'cause that's basically what Elves do. Complain that everyone else is isn't an Elf! :P
DreamStalker 12-27-07, 04:14 PM	This thread is now reminding me of Piers Anthony's Xanth series. In Xanth, periodic influxes of Mundanes (regular humans from Earth) keep the population of humans going exict because being bred out of existence. The magic of various effects such as love pools and just the general magic in the air make everything more crossbreedable. The hybrid nature of most things does not create sterility either. There is definitely a level of silliness, has at one point there his a character who is quarter brass-man, quarter ogre, quarter human and quarter nymph. Talk about having difficulties with racial identity. I prefer a strong consistent world, however I like that consistency to disagree with the real world mechnaics. Definitely so in biology. I prefer the statitics on races to represent potential as much as averages. I think the 4ED changes sound in parts to be a step in the right direction for what I like, yet in others a step back into things I dislike.
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 11:02 PM	There is definitely a level of silliness, has at one point there his a character who is quarter brass-man, quarter ogre, quarter human and quarter nymph. Talk about having difficulties with racial identity. -I'm sure that leads to odd family reunions.
sn0wcrash 12-28-07, 12:41 AM	-I'm sure that leads to odd family reunions. :D Hybrid vigor