Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Miryana 12-12-07, 12:13 PM	Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/218287200). I'm amused. If the Realms need to be remade because powerful NPCs are a major reason so many people won't give the setting a chance, why put Drizzt on the cover? But this makes me think the time jump will be 100 years: The world has changed since the Spellplague, and from this arcane crucible have emerged shining kingdoms, tyrannical empires, mighty heroes, and monster-infested dungeons. I'm afraid 4E FR could end up feeling like a completely new setting - and that's not a good thing for me, since I've liked the old kingdoms, cities and organisations.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-12-07, 01:49 PM	I'm amused. If the Realms need to be remade because powerful NPCs are a major reason so many people won't give the setting a chance, why put Drizzt on the cover? I was wondering the exact same thing. Drizzt is 100% NPC, isn't he? And he has a reputation of being a super-unbeatable warrior, even if he really isn't.
Blibbering_Humdinger 12-12-07, 02:10 PM	I doubt that's the actual cover. Too soon. When they released The Orc King's cover they released it with an early/inferior title/author name design, when they released "The Annotated Elminster's" cover they used artwork from an older Elminster title and a clearly dashed-together title design. And then later they revealed the actual cover. I actually expect the art currently on that cover to be the art that's pasted next to Drizzt Do'Urden's 4E game stats somewhere around the Sword Coast North's geography description. Expect new artwork for Artemis, too--I'm betting the Shady Guy's still around, what with all that slimy shadowstuff in his system...
Stigger 12-12-07, 02:21 PM	Again, ugh...
Kenzuki 12-12-07, 02:39 PM	That actually looks pretty cool in it's own way. I might actually buy it just to have something to read and see what changes are in there. If I don't like the current setting I can set a campaign in an earlier timeline, simple as that. Who knows I might like some of the new stuff. I'm keeping an open mind about it.
Storm_Silverhand 12-12-07, 04:43 PM	Heya, Hmm... that's interesting. Even if that's not the final art work, I have a feeling the layout (the way the title is presented on the cover in particular) is probably what we'll see on the final cover. If that is the case, they've brought the Realms layout into line with the Core materials. Very interesting indeed... (No, the cover has not convinced me to buy it. Do better Wizards.)
selunatic2397 12-12-07, 04:48 PM	I vote for a full picture of Aumvor The Undying on the cover...in a nice pair of speedos!:D
Alrunic Silverfyre 12-12-07, 05:23 PM	I vote for a full picture of Aumvor The Undying on the cover...in a nice pair of speedos! Isn't that what they are trying to make the old Realms out to be and using the new edition as something of a "cover up" on, and I quote Mr. Perkins, "30 years of baggage"? "Ohhhh, Old Realms is undead. Let's throw some New Realms brand speedos on it! Yeah! That's awesome!"
Alrunic Silverfyre 12-12-07, 05:24 PM	And yes, a cover with Drizzt standing tall and bold, with drawn swords and an expression of "If you can't handle it, I will!" on his face really backs the "nuking NPCs so they don't steal the PCs' thunder" statement. /end sarcasm
(Psi)SeveredHead 12-12-07, 06:03 PM	Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/218287200). I'm amused. If the Realms need to be remade because powerful NPCs are a major reason so many people won't give the setting a chance, why put Drizzt on the cover? Because Drizzt isn't a big "bad" hero (other than creating Drizzt-clones). He's not nearly as much a Mary Sue as Elminster. He can't teleport or cast any other important spells. He has a villain who can almost match him, rather than villains who fall before him like wimps (contrast his rivalry with Artemis Entreri compared to the Simbul vs the Red Wizards of Thay). He doesn't have a plethora of new rules made for him (unlike some FR wizard spells, his combat maneuvers have generally not been turned into feats, he doesn't have a template, etc). He can't seal a castle in Silver Fire unlike Storm Silverhand. He doesn't sleep with a deity who protects him from mind control spells (Elminster in Myth Drannor) and demons (Elminster in Hell). Courtesy of ENWorld: Drizz't on COVER!!! NOOOO! DO NOT WANT!!!!!!!!!! You knew someone would react that way :) Source: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=214062
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-12-07, 06:52 PM	Because Drizzt isn't a big "bad" hero (other than creating Drizzt-clones). He's not nearly as much a Mary Sue as Elminster. Total matter of opinion (that's coming from somone who likes both characters), and besides it misses the point. You'd think a campaign setting that's supposed to put PCs first wouldn't have an NPC glamour shot on the cover. I don't hate this picture of Drizzt (it is nice) but I do find it rather silly and contrary to the stated design goals of the FR team. Although of course it's possible that this isn't the final cover anyway.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-12-07, 06:58 PM	You knew someone would react that way :) Source: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=214062 Seems like a lot of people, even ardent fans, still don't know how to spell Drizzt's name.:)
GreenKnight 12-12-07, 06:58 PM	I'm generally ok with the cover, but if they really wanted Drizzt on the cover, then it would've been nice if they had put him in with all the Companions of the Hall fighting some monster or monsters, with Drizzt in a prominent position. D&D is a team sport, after all (Well, except for that one time I ran a solo adventure for a friend of mine who was playing a Svirfneblin Bard. But then again, he got his ass kicked by a Germlaine in one fight, so soloing in D&D may not be the greatest of ideas). Seems like a lot of people, even ardent fans, still don't know how to spell Drizzt's name Yeah. A'll tho'se a'pos'trophes the'y st'ick i'n Driz'zt's n'ame c'an b'e real'ly an'noy'ing.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-12-07, 07:02 PM	I'm generally ok with the cover, but if they really wanted Drizzt on the cover, then it would've been nice if they had put him in with all the Companions of the Hall fighting some monster or monsters, with Drizzt in a prominent position. D&D is a team sport, after all... Very true! Although I'm really longing for more quiet landscapes like the cover of GHotR. Yeah. A'll tho'se a'pos'trophes the'y st'ick i'n Driz'zt's n'ame c'an b'e real'ly an'noy'ing. :rofl:
Kenzuki 12-12-07, 07:04 PM	The reason Drizzt looks so powerful is because Salvator keeps sending him after weaklings. I mean David the local guardsman who is a level 12 fighter is going to completely own a cave full of level 1 goblin warriors too. When Drizzt fights a truly powerful enemy he doesn't look that powerful. Errtu would have killed him if he didn't have Icingdeath on him. Edit: Case in point comparing him to Artemis or Jarlaxle and he doesn't impress me so much :P
GreenKnight 12-12-07, 07:12 PM	Edit: Case in point comparing him to Artemis or Jarlaxle and he doesn't impress me so much :P Want another comparison? I got the D&D Minis for both Drizzt and Warduke, and I played out a fight between them to see who would win (Using their D&D game stats, not D&D mini stats). To summarize how it turned out: If it were a bar fight, Warduke would've used Drizzt's face as a bar towel, punched all his teeth out, knocked him cold, stripped him naked, and thrown his naked ass through a plate glass window. Now THAT'S my kind of villain! :D
Kenzuki 12-12-07, 07:21 PM	Want another comparison? I got the D&D Minis for both Drizzt and Warduke, and I played out a fight between them to see who would win (Using their D&D game stats, not D&D mini stats). To summarize how it turned out: If it were a bar fight, Warduke would've used Drizzt's face as a bar towel, punched all his teeth out, knocked him cold, stripped him naked, and thrown his naked ass through a plate glass window. Now THAT'S my kind of villain! :D Warduke does rock. I also have the feeling that if you take away Drizzt's weapons he'd get his butt kicked by more people in a fist fight. I've only read up to the Halfling's Gem so far due to me just getting into the series and collecting the new covered novels, so I could be wrong about what he does in the future.
Mourn 12-12-07, 08:24 PM	Very true! Although I'm really longing for more quiet landscapes like the cover of GHotR. The Grand History cover would have been ideal for the Campaign Guide cover, as it gives you the idea of this idyllic-looking world, and has the most recognizable character from the setting.
Mourn 12-12-07, 08:26 PM	I'm afraid 4E FR could end up feeling like a completely new setting - and that's not a good thing for me, since I've liked the old kingdoms, cities and organisations. Maybe they'll do a historical supplement. Dragonlance had Age of Mortals and War of the Lance, so maybe we'll see one on the pre-plague world with 4th edition rules.
Green Elven Vampire 12-12-07, 08:40 PM	All I can do is laugh! 4ED is such a joke and the 4ED FR product sales will reflect that. I bet that 3ED and 3.5ED FR will still make more money than 4ED FR once it comes out. I know it'll be cheaper to buy online for sure.
Ranger REG 12-12-07, 08:45 PM	I bet that 3ED and 3.5ED FR will still make more money than 4ED FR once it comes out. Of course, it will. WotC is going to stop printing 3e products -- if they have not already done so (e.g., Races of Faerun) -- which makes them valuable to anyone who are desperate to own them and profitable to anyone wanting to sell them. Assuming no deviant hasn't put them up on those free-download sites.
GreenKnight 12-12-07, 08:48 PM	Of course, it will. WotC is going to stop printing 3e products -- if they have not already done so (e.g., Races of Faerun) -- which makes them valuable to anyone who are desperate to own them and profitable to anyone wanting to sell them. That doesn't equal to a profit for WOTC. All those books will be bought and sold through a secondary market. I could sell my entire Forgotten Realms collection and it wouldn't matter, as WOTC wouldn't see a dime from that. So once the current printing is out it's either secondary market or bust.
Ranger REG 12-12-07, 08:55 PM	That doesn't equal to a profit for WOTC. All those books will be bought and sold through a secondary market. I could sell my entire Forgotten Realms collection and it wouldn't matter, as WOTC wouldn't see a dime from that. So once the current printing is out it's either secondary market or bust. Who says WotC will profit from them? All I know is that other people are going to make more money from those who don't have ALL of the 3e FR product -- I know I don't have all of them -- and doesn't want to make a 100-year-leap forward to the new campaign timeline.
Rauric 12-12-07, 09:00 PM	All I can do is laugh! 4ED is such a joke and the 4ED FR product sales will reflect that. I bet that 3ED and 3.5ED FR will still make more money than 4ED FR once it comes out. I know it'll be cheaper to buy online for sure. You are probably wrong though. Sorry, just had to respond to your inane anti4E nonsense. Again, sorry.
Mr_Miscellany 12-12-07, 09:05 PM	Not trying to be contrary.... I'm stoked. Straight up stoked; ready to play. Drizzt on the cover is all good. Though I wonder about the ready-to-use town....where will it be set, I wonder?
GreenKnight 12-12-07, 09:12 PM	Who says WotC will profit from them? I bet that 3ED and 3.5ED FR will still make more money than 4ED FR once it comes out. It sounded like you two were talking about WOTC earning more profits from the 3E Realms even after 4E comes out, which won't be the case. As for buying and selling on the secondary market, big deal. It's not as if the number of fans with Realms books will be increasing, as you'll have one Realms fan selling off his stuff to another. No increase, there.
Phelf_Der_Zemit 12-12-07, 09:23 PM	as said before, drizzt is hardly an overpowered NPC, and yes all hatered to 4E aside, the cover looks AWEchane to higher pitchSOME. for you "How I Met Your Mother" fans Legen.. wait for it.. and... dary!!
MarkusTay63 12-12-07, 09:30 PM	@Kenzuki - change your Avatar dude, you're confusing the hell out of me. Sorry it took me so long to respond to this - I wanted to submit the new FRCG cover to the Poison Control Center... it's great to induce vomiting. :yuck:
Dark Wizard 12-12-07, 09:45 PM	Whatever else it might be, the cover (even as a mockup cover) is boring and one dimensional. It might be great for a Drizzt novel or a miniature box (one of several different box covers) it just doesn't hold up as the cover to an entire setting. For Helm's sake at least throw Guenhwyvar in there.
Kenzuki 12-12-07, 10:16 PM	@Kenzuki - change your Avatar dude, you're confusing the hell out of me. Sorry it took me so long to respond to this - I wanted to submit the new FRCG cover to the Poison Control Center... it's great to induce vomiting. :yuck: Your wish is granted!
MarkusTay63 12-12-07, 11:02 PM	Now I feel bad... you didn't have to listen to me, ya' know. :( But I appreciate it... I kept thinking Stigger was suffering from Bipolar Disorder. You know, I really didn't mind the cover of the GHotR - after all, Drizzt was just a centerpiece to a vast Realmsian Panorama (with it wrapping-around to El on the back). But for some reason, this FRCG one really annoys the living hell out of me. I can't quite put my finger on it, but it gets under my skin more then I usually allow something to do so. It almost appears as if this really is a completely different setting, called "Drizzt World". It's as if the entire planet revolves around him now. Marketing is one thing, but turning everyone's favorite fanboy-Drow into a Wh_re is just plain disgusting. They are literally 'pimping' him for all he's worth. :nonono:
GreenKnight 12-12-07, 11:24 PM	They are literally 'pimping' him for all he's worse. :nonono: ...for all he's "worth". That's the phrase you're looking for. :P http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/282231/2257467grammar-nazi.jpg
Blibbering_Humdinger 12-13-07, 12:50 AM	Let's not turn this cover mock-up into a reason to hate the 4E Realms or anything. In the other thread discussing this, one of the posters linked to a previous product that uses this very piece of Drizzt art, so it's almost certainly a pre-release mock-up. Pre-release mock-ups are rarely cool-looking (that's why they're only pre-release mockups... someone threw them together in 15-16 minutes on Photoshop so they'd have something for their online adverts), so it's nothing to judge anything by. If the overall format of the cover is used, though, that's fine. I'm not in love with it, though. I like 3E's format. Much cooler, methinks. But oh well. Don't judge a book by its cover, and all that... Point is, we almost certainly won't be seeing that cover art on the end product, and they have a full half-year to cook up their final cover art. Let's not start burning the book before we've even seen what it'll look like...
Stigger 12-13-07, 01:15 AM	Well, it is kinda cold at the moment, so burning it might be necessary if the power goes out... :D
Storm_Silverhand 12-13-07, 03:27 AM	Heya, Maybe they'll do a historical supplement. Dragonlance had Age of Mortals and War of the Lance, so maybe we'll see one on the pre-plague world with 4th edition rules. If they did that they might get me to buy Realms materials. I'd definitely like to see something like that.
Hanali-in-Love 12-13-07, 03:37 AM	Not trying to be contrary.... I'm stoked. Straight up stoked; ready to play. Drizzt on the cover is all good. Though I wonder about the ready-to-use town....where will it be set, I wonder? It'll be set in Lameville on the border of Retcon forest!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-13-07, 11:12 AM	Heya, If they did that they might get me to buy Realms materials. I'd definitely like to see something like that. Agreed. The sample town will be Mithral Hall.:P Regarding the cover--even if the final cover is different, Rich Baker's recent comment (that WotC would be silly not to take advantage of Drizzt's popularity to sell these books) leads me to believe that it will still feature Drizzt on the cover. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, either, although I don't think a picture with Drizzt in it needs to turn into an all-out Drizzt glamour shot, either.
WotC_RichBaker 12-13-07, 03:57 PM	I've learned that the Drizzt image in the catalog is a placeholder. We've actually got a new piece of art planned. Sorry for the confusion--I should have checked before I started defending the decision!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-13-07, 03:59 PM	It's OK, now we know.:)
Stigger 12-13-07, 04:46 PM	Shocking... I'd complain about something, but I can't think of anything at the moment. :( :D
Alkasyn 12-13-07, 05:05 PM	...for all he's "worth". That's the phrase you're looking for. :P http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/282231/2257467grammar-nazi.jpg Collecting such images is like an internet hobby of mine, and I didn't have that one, thanks:) Remembering the days I played MTG, here's a different one I'll trade for Yours:) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v416/Alkasyn/Thread%20Answers/Spelling-DictionaryNazi.gif
GreenKnight 12-13-07, 05:15 PM	Thanks, I didn't have that one, either. Went ahead and saved it. By the way, here's a freebie, seeing as how we're on the subject of Nazis. :D http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/282231/2257734hammerzeit.jpg :rofl:
The ShapeLess One 12-13-07, 05:15 PM	I really do hope that is not the final cover. For sometime I have not liked Drizzt, now I am really starting to loath him.
GreenKnight 12-13-07, 05:16 PM	I really do hope that is not the final cover. For sometime I have not liked Drizzt, now I am really starting to loath him. It's not. Rich Baker has confirmed that it's just a placeholder.
The ShapeLess One 12-13-07, 05:17 PM	Alrighty.
Phelf_Der_Zemit 12-13-07, 05:41 PM	Still if it was a drizzt focused book, it would be, oh how do you say "Off the Hook!", or would you perfer "Pure and Simple Sweetness!", ya I like the later better.
MarkusTay63 12-13-07, 06:00 PM	But Drizzt happens to be a fairly insignificant fly-speck on Toril, so having him on a book representing the setting is very misleading. If a Drizzt fan were to buy the book simply because he was on the cover, they might be a little annoyed after finding out just how little said Tome had to do with him. I think thats why it irked me so - it would have been a bit duplitious on WotC's part using him in that manner. BTW, Thank You Rich Baker for clearing that up - I was ready to walk away from D&D for good last night; that's how disgusted I was. I know that sounds silly and tright, but every 'camel' has his final straw. ;)
Lord Karsus 12-14-07, 12:50 AM	Sorry for the confusion--I should have checked before I started defending the decision! -Just another reason to add to the list of why Rich Baker must be stopped...:mad: (;))
Ranger REG 12-14-07, 01:02 AM	BTW, Thank You Rich Baker for clearing that up - I was ready to walk away from D&D for good last night; that's how disgusted I was. I know that sounds silly and tright, but every 'camel' has his final straw. ;) Meh. I was about to walk away from 3e when I saw the girls' diary that turns out to be the Player's Handbook. :devil: :devil:
Mr_Miscellany 12-14-07, 02:50 AM	It'll be set in Lameville on the border of Retcon forest!Ooh, that was creative, and plenty helpful. Meh.
Lord Karsus 12-14-07, 03:09 AM	-Gotta admit, it'd be funny if "Retcon Forest" was added in somewhere.
The_Shaman 12-14-07, 07:25 AM	Retcon forest? Fitting, I suppose the elves in it will be big on worshipping Selune. Anyway, let's see what we're being promised: "Welcome to Faerūn, a land of amazing magic, terrifying monsters, ancient ruins, and hidden wonders." In other words: a high-magic setting, like none you've ever seen before. Ok, except for how it was before. Hey, it's good to know - I thought we'd be getting Rokugan in 4th edition with Drizzt being a part of the all-new Panther clan. "The world has changed since the Spellplague, and from this arcane crucible have emerged shining kingdoms, tyrannical empires, mighty heroes, and monster-infested dungeons." Ah-ha! The all-changing Spellplague has swept aside the old Realms, and from this arcane crucible (kinda sounds like the soul forges they have in Eberron, doesn't it?) have emerged... wait, shiny kingdoms, tyrannical empires, mighty heroes and monster-infested dungeons? You mean, like Cormyr and Silverymoon, Thay and Calimshan, all those high-level PCs and NPCs and the smorgasbord of dungeons we had? Why, that is so very novel! I'm so eager to have a NPC come from Goldmoon! In short: meet the new boss, same as the old boss. "The Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide presents a world of untold adventure, a land of a thousand stories shaped by the deeds of adventurers the likes of which Faerūn has never seen before." Wow. Adventurers the likes of which Faerun has never seen before? This beggars the question, what adventurers Faerun has seen before? Let's see... ... Oh, dear ... The more I rattle my brain-box, the more I'm convinced that this means one of 3 things: a) the people who wrote this don't have the least ******* clue what Faerun is and what has happened on it - unlikely b) PCs in Faerun will start at lvl 25 or so - unlikely c) this statement is complete and utter BS - most likely, by process of elimination All in all, this page is good for a few laughs, but there's something beyond the absurdities, and it's rather alarming. There's an basic marketing rule that you pitch a product at a particular audience, and if it applies here, and those statements imply that the people whom this book is marketed at are the kind of people who don't have much of a clue about the setting. Of course, it could be that I'm overreading or that the blurb is just some temporary BS to have there until the writers actually finish the book and know how to summarize it.
Lord Karsus 12-14-07, 11:58 AM	Retcon forest? Fitting, I suppose the elves in it will be big on worshipping Selune. -Indeed...:rolleyes:
Mr_Miscellany 12-15-07, 01:21 AM	Big shout-outs go to LK and Shaman for their positive attitude and total lack of cynicism. It's good to know that when it comes to playing games, folks around here are always looking on the bright side.
Lord Karsus 12-15-07, 01:47 AM	-I don't play no games. I'm just here for the story.
Kenzuki 12-15-07, 07:45 AM	Since starting 3rd shift I've not got a chance to actually play in like 6 months, but like Lord Karsus I like to keep up with the stories and such.
Karsus the Mad 12-15-07, 08:48 AM	-I don't play no games. I'm just here for the story. Ditto. It might just be the greatest game to ever exist. As for me, I don't buy the products for their gaming value. I buy them for the setting information (ie: the history and stories), thus that's what my viewpoint will be based on. I am glad that that's not going to be the cover, and I hope they don't have any comic-style picture as the cover either.
MarkusTay63 12-15-07, 09:15 AM	It's good to know that when it comes to playing games, folks around here are always looking on the bright side.If you have been following my posts, then you would know I haven't said a SINGLE bad thing about the 4e rules. In fact, I'm rather looking forward to them. ;)
Stigger 12-15-07, 12:10 PM	There's quite a few things I don't like about the fluff and apparently the rules... even if I can see the reason for them. 4e just doesn't look like its going to suit my preferred style of play really. But I suppose I won't really know that until its released.
Lord Karsus 12-15-07, 01:30 PM	As for me, I don't buy the products for their gaming value. I buy them for the setting information (ie: the history and stories), thus that's what my viewpoint will be based on. -Karsus knows himself. :) I am glad that that's not going to be the cover, and I hope they don't have any comic-style picture as the cover either. -What you don't want a cover with Drizzt fighting an Orc, drawn in anime style, with Drizzt having a word bubble saying, "Die, swine!", the Orc having a late* thought bubble going, "Uh oh!", and a caption saying, "Is this the end of the Forgotten Realms!? Stay tuned, true believers!" *Thought bubbles aren't used anymore. If you have been following my posts, then you would know I haven't said a SINGLE bad thing about the 4e rules. -There are a lot of people where the lines have been blurred, and 4e and 4e Forgotten Realms are the same.
Karsus the Mad 12-15-07, 02:22 PM	-What you don't want a cover with Drizzt fighting an Orc, drawn in anime style, with Drizzt having a word bubble saying, "Die, swine!", the Orc having a late* thought bubble going, "Uh oh!", and a caption saying, "Is this the end of the Forgotten Realms!? Stay tuned, true believers!" That's what I fear. It's merely an aesthetic taste of mine. I liked the 3.0 FRCS, 2e Pages from the Mages, etc. Even the coverart for say...Magic of Faerun was ok. It looked like a painting. What I don't like, for example, is the coverart for...ohhh...Lost Empires of Faerun. It's not that the coverart is bad. It's a rather nice piece to be honest. Most coverart is. I just don't like my coverart to look like it came from a Saturday morning cartoon.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-15-07, 06:48 PM	deleted
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-15-07, 06:50 PM	-What you don't want a cover with Drizzt fighting an Orc, drawn in anime style, with Drizzt having a word bubble saying, "Die, swine!", the Orc having a late* thought bubble going, "Uh oh!", and a caption saying, "Is this the end of the Forgotten Realms!? Stay tuned, true believers!" *Thought bubbles aren't used anymore. Well, at least that would be funny. :rofl: -There are a lot of people where the lines have been blurred, and 4e and 4e Forgotten Realms are the same. No kidding!
Karsus the Mad 12-15-07, 07:21 PM	Well, at least that would be funny. :rofl: No it wouldn't! That'd be utterly horrible. That would be an indication that it's all devolving into hack and slash, uber boring carbon copies running around attempting to outshine eachother:mad: Which is.....expected...ahem... -There are a lot of people where the lines have been blurred, and 4e and 4e Forgotten Realms are the same. Yeah...these types are just as bad for the community as those that automatically subscribe (or unsubscribe) to the new Realms (and rules) simply because it's new without first actually considering whether or not they might actually like it based on what little we know.
MarkusTay63 12-15-07, 08:54 PM	I use logic to make my decisions, in the end. Each edition of the rules, I feel, has been an improvement over the last. I think 3e was a milestone, and brought me back to D&D. THAT is why I feel good about a new rules edition - so far they have rarely dissapointed in that regard (the 2e Player's Option series being the notable exception). However, based on what little we've been told about 4e FR, it sounds a lot like the setting was changed because of a certain demographic's wrongful pre-conceptions. What this means is that they gambled away their core audience in hopes of gaining a new one. Although many FR fans will eventually 'break-down' and make the switch, I think about half will stay in their comfort zone and continue on in 3e... where WotC does not plan to make any money. As far as new players go, I think that people that didn't like the Realms before, for whatever contrived reason, will most likely STILL dislike the Realms, probably for some NEW contrived reason. That leaves the folks who are new to D&D, which I have to assume was their target audience all along. The fact that the rules are being simplified leads one to believe that they are shooting much lower then usual age-wise (not an un-sound business decision, in-and-of itself). Just like a drug dealer trying to hook kids early, WotC wants to get as many youngun's into their game as possible. There is nothing wrong with building a strong customer base at an early age, because it gaurantee's you a certain amount of residual income for years to come. So the bottom line is this - they alianated most FR players with this decision, and most likely won't bring in too many D&D players from other settings. They might get a few ex-FR fans to come back, but I doubt that will off-set the ones they are likely to lose. So this whole gamble is riding on the Gamers (computer/video), the novel readers, and the new blood (kids) to be successful. The vid-game audience is a tough one, and they are used to their eye-candy. They might grab a decent enough chunk of folks from the novels, but still doubtful that it would be enough. The Kids are a whole 'nother story, and if they mesh the miniatures line/game better with the core rules (making the cards work for both), then they may just have a winner. Kids like miniatures - take it from me. I have over 5000 metal ones and hundreds of plastic and my kids can't get enough of them. The problem is - the kids don't USE the rules, they just play with the pieces and make up their own rules. I have about 300 D&D plastics and we've NEVER played with the miniatures rules (but I have with the Star Wars ones). The only way I see this working is if the new core rules acts as the "expert rules" for the miniatures game. If they can pull that off, they may yet be able to garner the young audience they are hoping for. I KNOW I could make it work... I have four boys so I know how kids think (plus I'm very immature :D ), so I know they can as well. Hopefully, 4e D&D will be the next big thing - only time will tell. That does not mean that I have to like what they did to the Realms to get there. :(
Karsus the Mad 12-15-07, 09:00 PM	I use logic to make my decisions, in the end. Each edition of the rules, I feel, has been an improvement over the last. I think 3e was a milestone, and brought me back to D&D. THAT is why I feel good about a new rules edition - so far they have rarely dissapointed in that regard (the 2e Player's Option series being the notable exception). However, based on what little we've been told about 4e FR, it sounds a lot like the setting was changed because of a certain demographic's wrongful pre-conceptions. What this means is that they gambled away their core audience in hopes of gaining a new one. Although many FR fans will eventually 'break-down' and make the switch, I think about half will stay in their comfort zone and continue on in 3e... where WotC does not plan to make any money. As far as new players go, I think that people that didn't like the Realms before, for whatever contrived reason, will most likely STILL dislike the Realms, probably for some NEW contrived reason. That leaves the folks who are new to D&D, which I have to assume was their target audience all along. The fact that the rules are being simplified leads one to believe that they are shooting much lower then usual age-wise (not an un-sound business decision, in-and-of itself). Just like a drug dealer trying to hook kids early, WotC wants to get as many youngun's into their game as possible. There is nothing wrong with building a strong customer base at an early age, because it gaurantee's you a certain amount of residual income for years to come. So the bottom line is this - they alianated most FR players with this decision, and most likely won't bring in too many D&D players from other settings. They might get a few ex-FR fans to come back, but I doubt that will off-set the ones they are likely to lose. So this whole gamble is riding on the Gamers (computer/video), the novel readers, and the new blood (kids) to be successful. The vid-game audience is a tough one, and they are used to their eye-candy. They might grab a decent enough chunk of folks from the novels, but still doubtful that it would be enough. The Kids are a whole 'nother story, and if they mesh the miniatures line/game better with the core rules (making the cards work for both), then they may just have a winner. Kids like miniatures - take it from me. I have over 5000 metal ones and hundreds of plastic and my kids can't get enough of them. The problem is - the kids don't USE the rules, they just play with the pieces and make up their own rules. I have about 300 D&D plastics and we've NEVER played with the miniatures rules (but I have with the Star Wars ones). The only way I see this working is if the new core rules acts as the "expert rules" for the miniatures game. If they can pull that off, they may yet be able to garner the young audience they are hoping for. I KNOW I could make it work... I have four boys so I know how kids think (plus I'm very immature :D ), so I know they can as well. Hopefully, 4e D&D will be the next big thing - only time will tell. That does not mean that I have to like what they did to the Realms to get there. :( eeeek....could you summarize the novel that is your post (playing, of course)? Actually MT, I couldn't have said it better, and I've tried. I officially give you a big sqooshy Karsus Hug. You're now a Special Friend of Karsus. Hehehehe....that means doom!
Mr_Miscellany 12-15-07, 09:18 PM	If you have been following my posts, then you would know I haven't said a SINGLE bad thing about the 4e rules.Yeah, and I'm still freaking out about the little 180 you've pulled. :eek:
Karsus the Mad 12-15-07, 09:42 PM	Yeah, and I'm still freaking out about the little 180 you've pulled. :eek: He pulled a 180? That's impossible. Markus simply isn't flexible enough. He's my age, and I'm bloody ancient. People like MT and I simply can't bend over as well as we used to. It's the back...ehhhh...It happens...You bend over one day to pick something up and POP...it's a complete reversal of ideals. One day you think such and such, the next, it's the exact opposite because the pain overrides your preconcieved notions of how things should be.
Lord Karsus 12-15-07, 11:45 PM	It's not that the coverart is bad. It's a rather nice piece to be honest. Most coverart is. I just don't like my coverart to look like it came from a Saturday morning cartoon. -Agreed. I'd rather have my coverart be something abstract, like, say the FRCS cover, than a specific scene or whatnot, like, say, Champions of Valor. He pulled a 180? That's impossible. Markus simply isn't flexible enough. -It's true. The guy is like a friggin' muscle- one giant muscle! He could probably break all of us with one hand. :shifty: -MT's been juicing... :shifty:
Andferne 12-16-07, 12:09 AM	I could be wrong (lord knows I often am) but isnt he 'placeholder' picture of Drizzt the picture that was on the minature's box for the first set he was realesed in? I could swear it is, just blown up. I'm still holding off this 4E doom feeling everyone has until I have a copy of the product in my hand. If the 4E PHB doesnt 'float' my boat then I probably won't be buying the rest.
Lord_Madrigan 12-16-07, 12:20 AM	Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/218287200). I'm amused. If the Realms need to be remade because powerful NPCs are a major reason so many people won't give the setting a chance, why put Drizzt on the cover? Wizards Of the coast Presents: Drizzt Do'Urden and the Forgotten Realms In the Great words of Homer. DOH!
Karsus the Mad 12-16-07, 12:23 AM	-Agreed. I'd rather have my coverart be something abstract, like, say the FRCS cover, than a specific scene or whatnot, like, say, Champions of Valor. Incongriguably....which I just made up. It means I agree, but sounds more intellectual....or cooky...either way it's my new word. -It's true. The guy is like a friggin' muscle- one giant muscle! He could probably break all of us with one hand. :shifty: -MT's been juicing... :shifty: Heh...it's more than juicing. He's been eating my buritos...
Lord Karsus 12-16-07, 12:30 AM	I could be wrong (lord knows I often am) but isnt he 'placeholder' picture of Drizzt the picture that was on the minature's box for the first set he was realesed in? I could swear it is, just blown up. -Yes, don't worry, that's not going to be the actual cover. Heh...it's more than juicing. He's been eating my buritos... -Incongriguably.
Kenzuki 12-16-07, 05:09 PM	I can picture an even better cover personally.:cool: Drizzt: You'll never get away with this Artemis! HIIIIYYYYAAAAAH! *grunts alot followed by bluging of the muscles and his hair becoming spikey and golden while lightning dances across his body* Artemis: Jarlaxle, what's your eyepatch say about his CR? Jarlaxle:.....it's....OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAANDDD!!!!! Artemis: WHAT!? NINE THOUSAAAAAND???!!! To present some visual aid.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzPmPfcqTZ0
Lord Karsus 12-16-07, 09:27 PM	To present some visual aid.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzPmPfcqTZ0 -Not that again...:rolleyes: -It's not funny.
18DELTA 12-16-07, 10:44 PM	But I could really care less about a cover of shadowcrap. Because that is what the cover is going to be. Shadowcrap! Good Grief!:rolleyes: Oh lets put a Shade riding a wicked looking dragon type creature on the FRCG. Whatever its still more of the same old thing SHADOWCRAP!!!;) Now if Erevis Cale was on the cover, now thats Shadowcrap covered in AWESOME!:P
Kenzuki 12-16-07, 11:20 PM	-Not that again...:rolleyes: -It's not funny. I thought it was....*pouts*
MarkusTay63 12-18-07, 12:39 PM	Yeah, and I'm still freaking out about the little 180 you've pulled. :eek:Actually, I've always liked the rules - I've used 'spell-foci' IMG since the early 80's. :D I've also never been a big fan of the Vancian magic system, although the Jack Vance novels are EXCELLENT and a must-read for any D&Der. With each Rules edition, they moved closer to how I perceive magic and combat working, so for me, excepting the 4e rules is a no-brainer. The cosmology also sounds VERY interesting. I don't know if I will like the big picture when we see it, but I will probably mesh it into my own concepts, just as I have done with the Tree and the Wheel. I've also NEVER been against change - just against changes made for change's sake. They can change ANYTHING they like and I will be happy, as long as the storyline fits with FR lore and makes some sense. Storylines that are "soap-operish" or lifted from other settings/novels I don't think are very intuitive, and that is what has caused me the GREATEST concern about the 4e Realms. It appears that many of the changes are being made soley to change people's perception of the Realms, not to actually improve the Realms in any way. I'm really a big fan of change, when done correctly. I'm also a fairly intelligent person , believe it or not, and my opinions change with each new piece of information we get. I don't hate things just because they are different; without 'free-thinkers', we would never have had the Fantasy genre. What I am a HUGE fan of is COHESION, and if something doesn't sound right, then it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like some of this talk of the Far Realms in FR.... :(
MerrikCale 12-18-07, 12:51 PM	--MT's been juicing... :shifty: he's the Roger Clemens of the WOTC forums
Lord Karsus 12-18-07, 02:50 PM	he's the Roger Clemens of the WOTC forums -I was thinking he was more Jose Conseco, minus the part where no one likes him.
Blibbering_Humdinger 12-19-07, 05:03 AM	I've learned that the Drizzt image in the catalog is a placeholder. We've actually got a new piece of art planned. Sorry for the confusion--I should have checked before I started defending the decision! Just so all y'all latecomers know... ;)
MerrikCale 12-19-07, 09:22 AM	-I was thinking he was more Jose Conseco, minus the part where no one likes him. are you saying he's a rat?
Lord Karsus 12-19-07, 01:28 PM	are you saying he's a rat? -No, that's the "minus the part where no one likes him". Clemens is a juicer, but he doesn't look it. He just takes it to keep on playing. Conseco took the 'roids to increase his power numbers. As such, as we all know, the guy got huge, muscle wise.
Karsus the Mad 12-19-07, 02:42 PM	Those names sound surgically painfull..... They're specific causes of the brass ball plague aren't they? Brass ball plague bearers are all rats. Well, bacteria really. The more well known species are a virus. They have this odd quirk to spread their mindless habit to run in circles for no purpose. Be wary. The plague isn't lethal, but it does bear an intelligence reducing side effect. If you start jumping up and down screaming, or spend lots of money to see the plague in action, or argue with friends about specific cellular activity of the plague, or have a favorite bacterium or virus within the plague, you might be suffering from brass ball. If you believe you are suffering from brass ball plague or show signs of the above symptoms, please see your nearest doctor, psychiatrist, and most importantly, neutering services.
Lord Karsus 12-19-07, 03:26 PM	-Uhhummm...Right. :thumbsup:
Stigger 12-19-07, 07:10 PM	I'm not sure whether to be worried or not... that almost made sense to me...
Karsus the Mad 12-19-07, 07:29 PM	-Uhhummm...Right. :thumbsup: Duh. I posted it. Therefore it's a universal truth. It is both right and correct. I'm not sure whether to be worried or not... that almost made sense to me... Of course it almost made sense to you. You haven't yet been completely infected. For your own safety, and all that you hold dear, please follow my advice. You have children? It's not too late. By keeping them away from the Brass Ball plague altogether, or counseling them about the horrible side effects of Brass Ball before they're exposed, you can increase their chances of living a healthy, Brass Ball free life. For those under the legal age of 18, I have Brass Ball Prevention Pamphlets detailing the horrid results of Brass Ball Exposure and step by step methods of reducing YOUR chance of contacting the Brass Ball Plague. They're 100% FREE at www.Brass Ball Education Before Stupidity Sets In.Edu. Edit: I didn't know it'd think it was a real site.....
MerrikCale 12-19-07, 08:37 PM	- Clemens is a juicer, but he doesn't look it. I'm not so sure about that. But back to the original topic, didn't they say thats not the real cover anyway?
Lord Karsus 12-20-07, 12:15 AM	Duh. I posted it. Therefore it's a universal truth. It is both right and correct. Incongriguably. I'm not so sure about that. -I've gone to a couple of Yankee games while Clemens was on the team, and I had the (dubious) honor of actually sitting close to the dugout on one of those occasions when Clemens was pitching. From what I can recall, from him walking back to the dugout, the guy wasn't muscle upon muscle upon muscle. Sure, he was looking pretty good for a 40 year old, but he wasn't no... http://it.geocities.com/comesifauna619/lesnar2_800.jpg -I remember seeing him on TV when a friend was watching wrestling, and I was like, "Holy crap, look at the size of that guy!" But back to the original topic, didn't they say thats not the real cover anyway? -Correct. It's going to be something like a Shade riding on a Dragon that is apparently "wicked looking".
Blibbering_Humdinger 12-20-07, 12:16 AM	-Correct. It's going to be something like a Shade riding on a Dragon that is apparently "wicked looking". Y'mean a Nazgul? *whisles innocently*
Lord Karsus 12-20-07, 12:40 AM	Y'mean a Nazgul? *whisles innocently* -Hmmm...Now that you mention it, that does sound quite Nazgūl-y.
Blibbering_Humdinger 12-20-07, 12:47 AM	Hey, what better enemy to confront Gand--I mean, Elminster! :P
Lord Karsus 12-20-07, 12:52 AM	Hey, what better enemy to confront Gand--I mean, Elminster! :P -Good point. -Hey, you're not Cheese Man anymore? What gives? Oddly enough, Strap-knight, who normally has that avatar, replaced it in favor of a Drow one.
Blibbering_Humdinger 12-20-07, 12:58 AM	-Good point. Of course it is, it was yours. Don't tell anyone, but I'm a Karsus in disguise. -Hey, you're not Cheese Man anymore? What gives? Oddly enough, Strap-knight, who normally has that avatar, replaced it in favor of a Drow one. I selected The Cheese Stands Alone for about twenty-two seconds before opting for Infernal Spawn of Evil, another tiny titanic extra-terrestrial rodent--this time with a cup of coffee and a pot-belly, to reflect the real me! (Well, no, I don't have a pot-belly, but I feel like I have one, and I could really use some coffee in the morning... it's a pity I can't stomach the stuff...)
18DELTA 12-20-07, 01:16 AM	Y'mean a Nazgul? *whisles innocently* Do you mean Shadowcrap Nazgul?:banghead: :banghead: :rant: :rant: :censored: :headexplo :headexplo :censored: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: *******it what the **** is up with Wotc and their shadowcrap!!!!!!!!:headexplo :headexplo :banghead: :banghead: :rant: :rant: :rant:
18DELTA 12-20-07, 01:17 AM	:heehee :rofl: :rofl:
18DELTA 12-20-07, 01:22 AM	Of course it is, it was yours. Don't tell anyone, but I'm a Karsus in disguise. I thought you are his/their Familiar?;)
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-20-07, 09:14 AM	You know 18D is sad when you "LOL" at your own joke....
MarkusTay63 12-20-07, 09:31 AM	And just for the record, I've never "juiced". ;) When I was body-building back in '95. I took a lot of NATURAL supplements (like dessicated liver), but I don't believe in chemicals (except for recreational purposes). :P Nowadays, I juts eat a lot of donuts to give me my girlish 280 lb figure. :rolleyes:
Stigger 12-20-07, 09:47 AM	So fixing is okay, just not juicing... gotcha. :P :D
MerrikCale 12-20-07, 10:43 AM	-I've gone to a couple of Yankee games while Clemens was on the team, and I had the (dubious) honor of actually sitting close to the dugout on one of those occasions when Clemens was pitching. From what I can recall, from him walking back to the dugout, the guy wasn't muscle upon muscle upon muscle. Sure, he was looking pretty good for a 40 year old, but he wasn't no... I suppose the most damning evidence is he seemed to be a pitcher on the downside then all of a sudden 3 more Cy Young awards.... I like Nazguls by the way. And why do I always get in trouble when I say El is a Gandalf ripoff but nobody else does?
18DELTA 12-20-07, 11:06 AM	You know 18D is sad when you "LOL" at your own joke.... :P ;) :D It was a long day at work last night...so I got to unwind with some posts.:)
Lord Karsus 12-20-07, 03:21 PM	And just for the record, I've never "juiced". ;) When I was body-building back in '95. I took a lot of NATURAL supplements (like dessicated liver), but I don't believe in chemicals (except for recreational purposes). :P Nowadays, I juts eat a lot of donuts to give me my girlish 280 lb figure. :rolleyes: -Ah, I see. I suppose the most damning evidence is he seemed to be a pitcher on the downside then all of a sudden 3 more Cy Young awards.... -Yep. That and the fact that his trained admitted to injecting him and Pettite, the fact that Pettite admitted doing HGH, and the fact that, for all of the huffing and puffing he is doing about "being slandered", he hasn't filed any legal papers to sue. I like Nazguls by the way. And why do I always get in trouble when I say El is a Gandalf ripoff but nobody else does? -It's your avatar. You don't look trustworthy. That, and certain people get (strangely enough, I can't use the word that means 'dealing with the scientific name for butt') pissy when that is said, and I guess you have bad luck running into them at inopportune times.
MerrikCale 12-20-07, 06:29 PM	-It's your avatar. You don't look trustworthy. That, and certain people get (strangely enough, I can't use the word that means 'dealing with the scientific name for butt') pissy when that is said, and I guess you have bad luck running into them at inopportune times. I suppose. And he is a ripoff ya know:D
Stigger 12-20-07, 06:34 PM	And the guy he's ripping off was a rip off of Merlin himself...
Lord Karsus 12-20-07, 06:40 PM	And the guy he's ripping off was a rip off of Merlin himself... -Where does the trail of lies end!?
Stigger 12-20-07, 06:42 PM	At the end of the fireball exploding at your feet when one of the old coots gets miffed at all the discussion of them behind their backs...
Lord Karsus 12-20-07, 09:05 PM	At the end of the fireball exploding at your feet when one of the old coots gets miffed at all the discussion of them behind their backs... -Good thing I'm immune to Fireballs. :mage: -I think a nice cover would have been a parchment map. Nice and simple.
Blibbering_Humdinger 12-20-07, 11:35 PM	(strangely enough, I can't use the word that means 'dealing with the scientific name for butt') Probably because it has X-rated implications.
Stigger 12-21-07, 12:51 AM	Well, the kids have to learn about it sometime... now's as good a time as any in my book! (doubt WotC will agree, but that's neither here nor there) And I'm voting for LKs suggestion. A parchment map would be an awesome cover.
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 01:35 AM	Probably because it has X-rated implications. -True, but it is a scientific term...Meh, whatever...
Karsus the Mad 12-21-07, 03:50 AM	And I'm voting for LKs suggestion. A parchment map would be an awesome cover. That'd be a nice cover. Far better than some npc yet again slicing orcs or incinerating them with fireballs.
MarkusTay63 12-21-07, 10:48 PM	Dumbledore=Belgariad=Elminster=Gandalf=M erlin=Math Mathonwy, etc, etc... There all really the same guy; just known by different names on different worlds and in different time periods. ;)
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 11:00 PM	There all really the same guy; just known by different names on different worlds and in different time periods. ;) -Like Selūne and Sehanine Moonbow. :rolleyes:
Old Sage 12-22-07, 03:41 AM	From Ed:- "He [Elminster] owes a little bit to the Old Storyteller of Thornton W. Burgess, a little bit to Merlin, a little bit to Gandalf, a trifle to Fagin, a trifle to the literary character Glencannon, a little bit more to the real-life (and long since sadly deceased) English comedian Michael Flanders, and so on. He's more Merlin than he is Gandalf or Belgarath—in fact, if you look at Nicol Williamson 's portrayal of Merlin in the movie Excalibur, remove the skullcap, and change the red hair to dark brown, the result will be pretty close to Elminster's whimsical behaviour and general looks; Old El of course predates the movie, too." And why do I always get in trouble when I say El is a Gandalf ripoff but nobody else does?Because I would expect you to know better. ;)
The Ubbergeek 12-22-07, 03:42 AM	You can't reinvent the wheels, and there is few new ideas there anymore... *shrugs* About Sehanine - elves have the mortal sins of pride.... They think they are special and different, but one may wonder how true it is....
Lord Karsus 12-22-07, 04:08 AM	About Sehanine - elves have the mortal sins of pride.... They think they are special and different, but one may wonder how true it is.... -All races/subraces/nationalities have ethnocentric pride. Heh, it wouldn't be much fun if you can't be proud of yourself and your people. Gnome Miner: "Great...I'm a Gnome. We're nothing special. Feh, what's the point of living, toiling here all day, getting dirt and rock particles in my nose...?" Nodwick: "Yeah, I hear you, brother..."
Karsus the Mad 12-22-07, 09:34 PM	And why do I always get in trouble when I say El is a Gandalf ripoff but nobody else does? Because you say truth, despite those that argue the truth, even, and more horribly, knowingly defy the simple truth.....all so it suits their perspective.....sad people actually. I pitty them... El is iconic. Is he a rippoff? Yes. Certainly doesn't make him any less special tho'....
GothicDan 12-22-07, 09:37 PM	I dunno. I think Old Sage's reply from Ed sums the truth up pretty well. I LOVE that movie depiction of Merlin in Excalibur, and that's always how I've envisioned El, more than Gandalf.
Karsus the Mad 12-22-07, 09:42 PM	I LOVE that movie depiction of Merlin in Excalibur, and that's always how I've envisioned El, more than Gandalf Then El is someone that doesn't interfere until somone else screws ups....then later comes alongs, after ignoring plees for help, to take a child away from the rightful father and mother? I loved Excalibur, but I hardly think Merlin is Elminster.
Karsus the Mad 12-22-07, 09:43 PM	I LOVE that movie depiction of Merlin in Excalibur, and that's always how I've envisioned El, more than Gandalf Then El is someone that doesn't interfere until somone else screws ups....then later comes alongs, after ignoring plees for help, to take a child away from the rightful father and mother? I loved Excalibur, but I hardly think Merlin is Elminster Oh wait...Elminster IS that horrid I suppose:P El isn't anyone else but El.....
GothicDan 12-22-07, 09:46 PM	Yep, that is how I definitely see an aspect of El. :)
MerrikCale 12-22-07, 09:49 PM	From Ed:- "He [Elminster] owes a little bit to the Old Storyteller of Thornton W. Burgess, a little bit to Merlin, a little bit to Gandalf, a trifle to Fagin, a trifle to the literary character Glencannon, a little bit more to the real-life (and long since sadly deceased) English comedian Michael Flanders, and so on. He's more Merlin than he is Gandalf or Belgarath—in fact, if you look at Nicol Williamson 's portrayal of Merlin in the movie Excalibur, remove the skullcap, and change the red hair to dark brown, the result will be pretty close to Elminster's whimsical behaviour and general looks; Old El of course predates the movie, too." Because I would expect you to know better. ;) See. I always get in trouble from these Greenwood fan club guys. Probably becuase they know I'm right. :rolleyes:
GothicDan 12-22-07, 09:51 PM	You're a lawyer. Why would we expect you to know any sort of actual knowledge? ;)
Karsus the Mad 12-22-07, 09:55 PM	Yep, that is how I definitely see an aspect of El. Precisely.
Old Sage 12-22-07, 10:17 PM	Here's a little more from the Lady Hooded One about Elminster and fantasy archetypes:- "Or to put it more bluntly, it follows that Gandalf's power and near god-like abilities are plainly Merlin ripoffs. Just as Merlin's are plainly ripoffs of . . . and so on. That's what archetypes ARE. For the record, Ed was once asked to sit on a board examining a doctoral thesis dissertation on this very archetype, questioning a candidate on the differences between Fizban/Fistandantilus (probable spelling mistake there, I'm afraid), Elminster, Belgarath, Merlin, Gandalf, and (if I remember rightly) three wizards from operas. The candidate got his PhD because Ed concluded (and wrote in his judgement) that the candidate clearly understood the differences between all of them as characters - - while still demonstrating how all of them "worked" as versions of the archetype. As for the "look" of Elminster (Early Version): that was entirely TSR's doing, because they WANTED TO MAKE HIM LOOK LIKE GANDALF to "cash in" on the then-current LORD OF THE RINGS popularity."
GothicDan 12-22-07, 10:24 PM	In my mind, El will be Merlin from Excalibur. :)
Old Sage 12-22-07, 10:24 PM	Probably becuase they know I'm right. :rolleyes:I would've thought you'd have known me better than that by now Merrik. ;)
MerrikCale 12-22-07, 11:56 PM	I would've thought you'd have known me better than that by now Merrik. ;) like GD says, I'm a lawyer, what do I know?
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 12:13 AM	like GD says, I'm a lawyer, what do I know? -I'm a law student, so I got your back. :)
GothicDan 12-23-07, 12:20 PM	LK, look at the sort of things that your fellow lawyer supports. Do you want to be with THAT crowd, or us eccentric, nice scientists?
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 12:23 PM	-I can't leave poor Merrik all alone, though. Just like when I supported the underdog notion that Tymora was a bimbo, so too will I support Merrik. :D
GothicDan 12-23-07, 12:25 PM	Oh. Well, that's acceptable.
Rauric 12-23-07, 12:27 PM	As for the "look" of Elminster (Early Version): that was entirely TSR's doing, because they WANTED TO MAKE HIM LOOK LIKE GANDALF to "cash in" on the then-current LORD OF THE RINGS popularity." See, blame TSR!
GothicDan 12-23-07, 12:30 PM	We blame TSR, too. :)
MerrikCale 12-23-07, 12:32 PM	-I'm a law student, so I got your back. :) where?
Fingoldfin 12-23-07, 12:33 PM	Lawyers and Law students. :yuck: The message boards seem to attract a lot of unwanted types. ;)
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 12:41 PM	where? -Lumbar region. Lawyers and Law students. :yuck: The message boards seem to attract a lot of unwanted types. ;) :rimshot: -Just remember that I am Karsus, a Sun Elven Selu'Taar, and have an army of robots with whips at my disposal. I'm just sayin', that's all...:incog:
GothicDan 12-23-07, 12:43 PM	I have an epic Dispelling High Magic Ritual in case LK gets out of hand, folks.
Fingoldfin 12-23-07, 12:43 PM	See, blame TSR! I blame the liberal media. Take that liberal media! ;) :P
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 12:47 PM	I have an epic Dispelling High Magic Ritual in case LK gets out of hand, folks. -You wouldn't dare. That would upset the unity we have, and would cause our Killing Storm to falter. I blame the liberal media. Take that liberal media! ;) :P -Liberal media? What liberal media!? (I always find it funny when people say that. As if it wasn't obviously and blatently left-leaning...) :)
Fingoldfin 12-23-07, 12:51 PM	I have an epic Dispelling High Magic Ritual in case LK gets out of hand, folks. Ok. Here's the plan. I'll do 20 different combat maneuvers in a row and that should distract him long enough for you to finish the ritual.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 12:51 PM	Oh, right. We need that unity.
Kenzuki 12-23-07, 04:42 PM	My favorite portrayle of the legendary wizard was by Sam Neil in Merlin. That movie rocked.
Old Sage 12-23-07, 08:19 PM	The message boards seem to attract a lot of unwanted types. ;)Indeed. After all, I'm STILL here! :P
XHereticX 01-01-08, 07:34 PM	LK, look at the sort of things that your fellow lawyer supports. Do you want to be with THAT crowd, or us eccentric, nice scientists? Glad to see that this place is still as random and eccentric as ever. And yes, I am consitering law as a possible career.:P As for the new cover, its just an attempt by WoTC to make FR look "cool" and "in style" to new fans (what better way than to put the posterboy himself on it in his full glory).
Karsus the Mad 01-01-08, 07:40 PM	Indeed. After all, I'm STILL here! :P Sooooo.......the Hands of Karsus arrived in time to prevent those damned Thayan assassins. Good good good.
Stigger 01-01-08, 07:42 PM	They weren't Thayan, they were from Candlekeep... that evil little snark Ulraunt is moving to get rid of the competition... :D
Karsus the Mad 01-01-08, 07:48 PM	Nay! Old Sage is paramount to Candlekeep. Ulraunt wouldn't dare to get rid of him, especially with Alaundo as Admin. The Hands are prepared to counter any attempts against Old Sage. If they, Mystra forbid, should fail, the Karsi are ready to invoke our incomprehensible arcane might.
XHereticX 01-01-08, 07:51 PM	Sooooo.......the Hands of Karsus arrived in time to prevent those damned Thayan assassins. Good good good. Hey, I know I've been absent for a while, but am I still a member?:)
Lord Karsus 01-01-08, 08:25 PM	Hey, I know I've been absent for a while, but am I still a member?:) -Of course. We have that portion of your soul, don't we? And, being as that Asmodeus isn't going to exist in 4e...
XHereticX 01-01-08, 08:29 PM	? And, being as that Asmodeus isn't going to exist in 4e... ........................................ ..NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOO Are they still using the great tree???
companion_cube 01-01-08, 08:30 PM	Odds are unfortunately high 4E will be a totally new world, except it has Drizzt and is called Faerun. If thats the case 4E doesnt interest me at all.
XHereticX 01-01-08, 08:33 PM	I have been pondering an idea where in my 4th edition campaign Toril is shattered into pieces by the spellplague and becomes a place similar to Outland in WoW and I will integrate it into my multiplanatar homebrew. The more I learn about 4th edition, the better this idea is sounding. Nobody in my area plays FR anyway.
Lord Karsus 01-01-08, 09:08 PM	........................................ ..NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOO Are they still using the great tree??? -No, no they are not. Well, "Core", anyway, isn't. Literally, it's being called 'The Astral Soup'. I haven't been following those details, but...they sure sound funny.
XHereticX 01-01-08, 09:11 PM	-No, no they are not. Well, "Core", anyway, isn't. Literally, it's being called 'The Astral Soup'. I haven't been following those details, but...they sure sound funny. So Karsus, any place you know where I can find info on the current state of the planes in Faerun?
Lord Karsus 01-01-08, 09:15 PM	So Karsus, any place you know where I can find info on the current state of the planes in Faerun? -Right now, the stuff from 3e still applies. In 4e, however, everything is (possibly) changing. -There is a novel series (The Empyrian Oddesy) that has to do with the Planes of Faerūn, and mentions that they will be "radically changed", so it's likely that this trilogy will explain the hows/whys of the changes to the cosmology.
18DELTA 01-01-08, 10:26 PM	And, being as that Asmodeus isn't going to exist in 4e... Now, now play nice. Asmodeus is now a CORE GOD in 4E. :)
XHereticX 01-01-08, 10:27 PM	-Right now, the stuff from 3e still applies. In 4e, however, everything is (possibly) changing. -There is a novel series (The Empyrian Oddesy) that has to do with the Planes of Faerūn, and mentions that they will be "radically changed", so it's likely that this trilogy will explain the hows/whys of the changes to the cosmology. Yeah, I read the first book of that trilogy a while ago, dunno if any new ones are out though. I am willing to forgive WoTC for all of their transgressions if they reinstate the wheel as the FR cosmology.:cool:
Lord Karsus 01-01-08, 10:52 PM	Now, now play nice. Asmodeus is now a CORE GOD in 4E. :) -Shh, you! Why I oughtta...:shifty: I am willing to forgive WoTC for all of their transgressions if they reinstate the wheel as the FR cosmology.:cool: -Well, that's definitley not happening.
XHereticX 01-01-08, 10:57 PM	Core god? Thank the Lor- I mean, thank Karsus, yes...:D So he is not just an archdevil anymore, an actual god?
The_Shaman 01-02-08, 06:59 AM	Well, if Gargauth could do it...
MarkusTay63 01-02-08, 04:53 PM	Core god? Thank the Lor- I mean, thank Karsus, yes...:D So he is not just an archdevil anymore, an actual god?Why can't he be both? :confused: In 1e, the Babylonian mythos contained an interesting god known as Druaga, ruler of the 'Devil World'. He could call as many devils as he wanted to aid him from his domain, and he was definately of fiendish origins. So, even in 1e, the concept of demons/devils as gods was possible.
XHereticX 01-02-08, 05:10 PM	Why can't he be both? :confused: In 1e, the Babylonian mythos contained an interesting god known as Druaga, ruler of the 'Devil World'. He could call as many devils as he wanted to aid him from his domain, and he was definately of fiendish origins. So, even in 1e, the concept of demons/devils as gods was possible. Um, I did state that he was not just an archdevil anymore, I never said he wasn't an archdevil at all.
MarkusTay63 01-02-08, 05:12 PM	Ah, gotcha. We just got to keep all of this 4e "worshipping demons" kinda hush-hush, before some bible-toting group of old bitties comes a'callin'. :P
XHereticX 01-02-08, 05:28 PM	Ah, gotcha. We just got to keep all of this 4e "worshipping demons" kinda hush-hush, before some bible-toting group of old bitties comes a'callin'. :P You low-life!!!!! Its DEVILS, not demons. D-E-V-I-L, Baatezu. Get it right!!:P
MarkusTay63 01-02-08, 06:48 PM	So, you're saying worshipping the Devil would go over much better with the Moral Majority? :uh-huh: Either way, I think we need to keep their attention focused on Harry Potter ATM...
XHereticX 01-02-08, 07:39 PM	So, you're saying worshipping the Devil would go over much better with the Moral Majority? :uh-huh: Either way, I think we need to keep their attention focused on Harry Potter ATM... Actually, the last time D&D was accused of being occult material the revisions that TSR ended up making turned out to be actually beneficial. Just look at Dark Sun, just look at Planescape and Ravenloft. They took the focus off of boring cliche' fantasy concepts and went on a limb of new ideas that were actually cool. Maybe a similar miracle could happen for 4th edition;) By the way, I am Christian (well, sort of:embarrass ) and I pretend to worship Asmodeus (as well as a supposedly dead, split-personality Nethernese Arcanist) on these forums just for fun. Its all just role-playing fun, don't let the brain-dead religious right get in the way of that. Stand up for your rights!!!
18DELTA 01-03-08, 01:35 AM	Well, if Gargauth could do it... -He will be retconed in to an aspect of Asmodeus.:rolleyes:
MarkusTay63 01-03-08, 01:41 AM	Well, if HP doesn't hold their attention long enough, we could always blame the whole thing on Marilyn Manson again. :P
Stigger 01-03-08, 01:43 AM	I'm all for blaming the evils of the world on that guy...
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 01:47 AM	-Isn't 'he' a 'she' now?
Stigger 01-03-08, 05:00 AM	Not to my knowledge... but I can't say I pay much attention to its existance, and would happily forget it if I could.
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 12:10 PM	-Yeah, I hear you...
18DELTA 01-03-08, 12:57 PM	-Just blame "Marilyn Potter Manson"!!!;) -Or is it "Harry Manson"?:P :rofl:
Karsus the Mad 01-03-08, 02:45 PM	Who:confused:
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 02:59 PM	Who:confused: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_manson
Karsus the Mad 01-03-08, 03:09 PM	Uhh...I was hoping my pretense would be so mind boggling that knowledge of it's existence would cease, thus freeing humanity from such a drudge.
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 03:24 PM	-Sorry.
Stigger 01-03-08, 04:23 PM	So much for a coordinated tripartite... :P :D
MarkusTay63 01-03-08, 05:04 PM	I heard he married Dennis Rodman - MJ performed the ceremony. :P <deleted socio-political commentary> I'm in a really good mood today - as much as I detest the preview book, I like the things that I am hearing. I really need to get down to Borders to read it. :dancin:
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 05:55 PM	I'm in a really good mood today - as much as I detest the preview book, I like the things that I am hearing. I really need to get down to Borders to read it. :dancin: -You really are bipolar. One day you hate it, the next day, apparently not. :P -Though, I understand it is a little more complicated than that, with giving an opinion, defending said opinion, others distorting said opinions, etc.
MarkusTay63 01-03-08, 07:26 PM	No, I never said I hated the preview - what I said was I hated PAYING for it. :P I'm sure I'll enjoy it, but I don't believe in shelling out money for 1/2 of anything. When the full rules comes around, I'll be sure to buy them. Also, I have to consider the re-useablity of the product - this isn't like something I'll ever pick-up again once I have the rules in hand. So whats the point of shelling out $20, for something that only has a shelf-life of a couple of months? :confused: I guess I can wait until we all get together and we can pour over a copy of it together. I suppose that means I will have to shower.... :rolleyes: EDIT: and I've taken to 'fence sitting' as far as the setting goes. I don't like what I am hearing, but I'll try to keep an open mind.
Stigger 01-04-08, 12:23 AM	I'm not keeping an open mind... I've already pretty much decided to blend 4e and 3.5 and Storyteller into one big confusing whole that only I can understand, just to give my players heart-attacks. I'm generous that way.
18DELTA 01-04-08, 01:03 AM	I'm not keeping an open mind... I've already pretty much decided to blend 4e and 3.5 and Storyteller into one big confusing whole that only I can understand, just to give my players heart-attacks. I'm EVIL that way. ;) :P :D -Fixed it for you. Didn't really look right.:)
Karsus the Mad 01-04-08, 01:08 AM	He's not evil. He's merely cruel, avarice, and inhumanely malign. In other words, the best guy anyone could know.
Ranger REG 01-04-08, 02:22 AM	No, I never said I hated the preview - what I said was I hated PAYING for it. :P QFT. I don't know who in WotC's HQ Building think we gamers will pay for previews. Last I checked, I don't crap golden eggs out of my behind. NOW, if paying $20 for a preview book would include a $20 discount (or rebate) coupon toward the purchase of 4e in June, that I would consider.
Lord Karsus 01-04-08, 03:02 AM	NOW, if paying $20 for a preview book would include a $20 discount (or rebate) coupon toward the purchase of 4e in June, that I would consider. -Or something. That's a good idea, though. Personally, I was thinking that this sort of thing should have been included in the last issue of DRAGON/DUNGEON.
Stigger 01-04-08, 04:16 AM	Generous and Evil would have looked even better really... though KtM is right, I'm not really evil so much as cruel and malignant. Its a subtle difference, but a vast one nonetheless. :evillaugh
selunatic2397 01-04-08, 01:43 PM	I am still holding out for cover art of Aumvor The Undying in a SPEEDO! :D
MarkusTay63 01-04-08, 07:20 PM	Are you SURE you want to see THAT?! :eek: I can make it happen, ya know.... :plotting: I'm not keeping an open mind... I've already pretty much decided to blend 4e and 3.5 and Storyteller into one big confusing whole that only I can understand, just to give my players heart-attacks. I'm generous that way.Well... if you read my thread (which changed names already) about what we would like to see in a setting, I'm already putting the 'bare bones' of a homebrew/FR campaign together. This way, I'll be prepared if I decide to just abandon canon FR altogether. Although, as of now, I'm pretty sure I will use the new rules in the 3e setting. I will use what I like best, on both fronts - we needn't have to take one WITH the other. The game has always been about choices, after all. I just hope the new rules don't let me down - so far they sound like something I can get behind (and modify heavily, which I always do anyway).
XHereticX 01-04-08, 07:52 PM	Hey, stop it with the Manson bashing now. I actually am a Manson fan, no matter how dubious his personal habits may be, he still is a musical genius.
MarkusTay63 01-04-08, 09:14 PM	You aren't going to go and shoot-up any schools, are you? :eek: You know, I mis-read your post for sec, and it actually gave me a wonderful idea for a new 'creature' for 4e - Marilyn Manshoon. :D Now... thats... just... SCAREY.
18DELTA 01-05-08, 12:12 AM	He's not evil. He's merely cruel, avarice, and inhumanely malign. In other words, the best guy anyone could know. :D
XHereticX 01-05-08, 10:29 AM	Nah, the Coumbine Killers were far more influenced by Rammstein (another band I like by the way) than Manson, since they were known to be Nazi symphasizers and did it on Hitler's B-day and all. Marilyn Manshoon....heck, they probably are the same person anyway:devil:
MarkusTay63 01-05-08, 11:30 AM	In my day, Ozzy Ozborne only made kids kill THEMSELVES. Marilyn Manson must be stopped!!! :(
Lord Karsus 01-05-08, 01:42 PM	Marilyn Manshoon -Arilyn Manshoon? -Another thing that would be a nice cover would be the 'map of Abeir-Toril', from the FRCs.
MarkusTay63 01-05-08, 04:43 PM	-Arilyn Manshoon?Manshoon's 'love-child' - an evil Deathbard NPC for 4e!!! :dancin: --Another thing that would be a nice cover would be the 'map of Abeir-Toril', from the FRCs.That map wasn't all that great - you are talking about the world map toward the back, right? I don't know if I'd like to see that as a cover; perhaps something along the lines of the one BJ did for the last CK Compendium - that one was WAY pretty.
Lord Karsus 01-05-08, 04:46 PM	That map wasn't all that great - you are talking about the world map toward the back, right? -Yeah, that one. I liked it- it had a 'Renaissance catrographer' feel to it.
MarkusTay63 01-05-08, 04:55 PM	I still like Brian James' better - http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/Brians_World.jpg Although seeing the WHOLE world would be better.
Lord Karsus 01-05-08, 04:57 PM	-Yeah, that I don't like.
XHereticX 01-05-08, 08:06 PM	In my day, Ozzy Ozborne only made kids kill THEMSELVES. Don't worry, MCR, AFI, and Hawthone Heights still got that covered:P I liked the 3rd editon CS cover, gave off a powerful feeling of antique simplicity with the cryptic symbol and the "worn" background.:)
MarkusTay63 01-06-08, 01:23 AM	Not to mention they saved a ton of money on REAL artwork. :P
XHereticX 01-06-08, 01:25 AM	Not to mention they saved a ton of money on REAL artwork. :P Which partly answers the paradox of why the 2nd edition artwork looked like Children's stencils while the 3rd edition was like Picasso in comparison.
MarkusTay63 01-06-08, 01:42 AM	I think 2e was more hit-and-miss. If you look through the 2e Monstrous manual, some of those illustrations look like masterpieces, and others looked like my six year old drew them. Thats still one of my all-time favorite sourcebooks, though. It was pretty much the most comprehensive monster Tome ever published - not like those cheesy little filler-packed 'booklets' we get now.
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 01:44 AM	I liked the 3rd editon CS cover, gave off a powerful feeling of antique simplicity with the cryptic symbol and the "worn" background.:) -Agreed. I'd rather see a symbol than a scene.
MarkusTay63 01-06-08, 12:37 PM	Considering who'd probably end up on the cover, I have to agree with you guys.
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 12:55 PM	Considering who'd probably end up on the cover, I have to agree with you guys. -Even if the cover featured Elminster in all his glory, the Knights of Myth Drannor, and whatever other Ed Greenwood iconic characters there are, I'd rather see a symbol.
18DELTA 01-06-08, 02:00 PM	-Even if the cover featured Elminster in all his glory, the Knights of Myth Drannor, and whatever other Ed Greenwood iconic characters there are, I'd rather see a symbol. -Maybe Mystra's Holy Symbol? They(WotC) would probably put Shar's symbol on it instead.:rolleyes:
Ranger REG 01-06-08, 02:01 PM	-Even if the cover featured Elminster in all his glory, the Knights of Myth Drannor, and whatever other Ed Greenwood iconic characters there are, I'd rather see a symbol. Maybe setting books should have symbols instead of following the new 4e trade dress. But should it be just a doodle or something more significant?
18DELTA 01-06-08, 02:03 PM	-BTW LK what is up with this? Never Forget Karsus the Mad Dec 2004 - Jan 2008 :confused:
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 02:11 PM	-PM sent.
MarkusTay63 01-06-08, 02:16 PM	Me too! :confused:
XHereticX 01-06-08, 05:38 PM	Is KTM really gone??
Lord Karsus 01-06-08, 06:23 PM	-Jeeze...PMs sent.
18DELTA 01-07-08, 03:59 PM	Is KTM really gone?? MAY HE RISE AGAIN!!!
MarkusTay63 01-07-08, 04:04 PM	Like a Phoenix, may he arise again from his own Ashes! Hallelujah!!! Now, can I have an "AMEN"? :ayyyy!:
Lord Karsus 01-07-08, 04:04 PM	-On the 4e FRCS cover.
XHereticX 01-07-08, 08:34 PM	MAY HE RISE AGAIN!!! I await the day the Messiah will return to destroy the false and sinful 4e world and deliver us to 5e paradise:angelhide
18DELTA 01-08-08, 01:23 AM	I await the day the Messiah will return to destroy the false and sinful 4e world and deliver us to 5e paradise:angelhide -Preach it bro...er XHereticX!!!;)
The_Shaman 01-09-08, 12:42 PM	Like a Phoenix, may he arise again from his own Ashes! Hallelujah!!! Now, can I have an "AMEN"? :ayyyy!: Yippie-kay-yay-men, Brother!
XHereticX 01-09-08, 09:29 PM	-Preach it bro...er XHereticX!!!;) hint hint: "look at my screename" :devil: :devil: :devil: