4th Edition [Archive] - Wizards Community

4th Edition [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ArnimThayer
07-23-07, 12:31 AM It seems inevitable that a 4th Edition is around the corner. With the release of Star Wars Saga Edition RPG, I think the prequel of things to come has been shown. Some of my fellow players and I have discussed this at length, and so here are our thoughts and wishes. Feel free to list your own thoughts and wishes, in hopes that any such version of our beloved game will take some input form such as us, the players.

We think the 4th Edition will likely consolidate the Core classes back to Warrior, Rogue, Wizard and Cleric (like 1st Edition), with talent trees to custom make classes such as Pladin, Ranger, and Druid. I embrace the 10 level Core class idea with Advanced Classes being also 10 levels and PRCs having a standard format of 5 levels. I am not opposed to the idea of the ability score-based Core classes (ala D20 Modern - imagine, Drizzt as a Quick elf Fighter!) with the afore-mentioned COre classes becoming Advanced classes.

A borrowing of the Starting Occupation mechanic in some form. This would allow the Warrior, for example, to have access to Search, Spot and Listen based on taking the Soldier occupation, skills that otherwise are not available without paying cross-class cost or multi-classing.

A system for the Core classes alternating Talent trees selections with bonus feats specific per class (such as the Ability Score-based classes from D20 Modern) would also be welcome. This would allow players to use more of the way too many feats in existence. We suggest Divine feats for Clerics, Ambush feats for Rogues, Meta-Magic feats for Wizards, and Combat feats for Warriors. The Scout class allows a similar mechanic right now every four levels.

A class-based Defense Bonus favoring those who DO NOT wear armor would be nice, the basic theory being that it would balance out how all classes advance their BAB, but AC is totally equipment based. Class-based Defense bonus has been used in every D20 game system created except D&D for some reason (Game of Thrones, Star Wars, and Wheel of Time to name a few).

Consolidation of some skills (as already seen in Star Wars Saga) would be welcome also (though I feel Sleight of Hand should be folded into the new skill Deception, not Stealth), but taking away the spending of skill points aspect of the game (alas again, ala SWS) would take away some of the fun of character advancment.

Eliminating redundant feat trees (Shot on the Run and Spring Attack, for example - both serve the same purpose... move and attack!) would also be welcome.

The addition of Skill Tricks as a mainstream mechanic would be nice (think of them as Feat light or micro-Feat!). It is the only new mechanic that has seen universal use and embrace in my games.

Any others?
Lord Karsus
07-23-07, 09:36 PM -This really belongs in the D&D General section, as it really isn't FR-specific.
MarkusTay63
07-23-07, 10:21 PM Four 10-level Core classes with substitution levels depending on race, region, specialization, etc would eliminate the need for so many core AND PrC's. How many 'devine fighter' types do we really need? Substitution levels are the easiest way to modify a class and specialize.

Bringing back kits, or occupations as you call it, might be fun. Many of the 2e kits were flavor-only, and they really don't hold up well against a power-house PrC. Who the hell really bothers with levels that help with divinations? Just make 'Seer' and other low-key flavor options kits once again.

Most Feats should be done along the lines of the tactical feats, with several different options depending on the situation, Some of the current are way to specialized to be useful in a variety of situations. Perhaps even a 'progression' within the feat, depending on how many levels you have it. It might be a little more bookeeping on the front-end, but it would be nice if Feats increased in function as you leveled. Maybe have them synergize with skills too - What you call 'skill tricks'.

I agree that the AC system from UA is superior to the normal one - it only makes sense that a person who can move quicker would avoid more blows. Heavy armor did not keep you from getting hit, it just softened the blows. I understand the system is an abstract, but I could use a little bit more realism, and a combination of the two systems presented in UA is pretty damn near perfect.

Just like you suggest with skill trees, I think something like that for magic would be nice. Powerful spells SHOULD require lower level spell pre-requisites - in other words, a mage who learns mostly fire spells should be able to produce better fire effects. If that sound too limiting, then attach a bonus instead - for each lower-level fire spell (or whatever) you already know, you get an extra +1 damage on one you are using. In this way, we make low-level spells count at higher levels. I believe an optional system called 'path magic' was presented in Dragon once.

Lastly, a system for aiming. There should be a 'paper-doll' with numbers denoting the various locations on the body that are randomly rolled. Then, for each +1 over the needed roll, the attacker can adjust the location over by one. Suppose you need a 12 to hit and you roll a 16 and you get an abdominal hit - you can then shift it over to the chest, then neck, face, and finally farhead (for that "right between the eyes" shot). Of course, something more specific could be worked out, but you get the idea. If you attach a certain amount of hit points to each location (a'la the old Runequest rules), you can take out a target easier by taking better aim.

More realism is key, and it makes combat far more interesting then just a bunch of dice rolls.
Renvale999
07-23-07, 11:10 PM Another 4th edition thread...yay from the peanut gallery.

Personally, I don't care when/if/where or why they release it. Bottomline, if it's before 2010, I'm attacking the WOTC headquarters with wet noodles and corn dogs....
ArnimThayer
07-24-07, 11:47 PM My apologizes, Lord Karsus... you are correct that this isn't Realms specific.

I am, foremost, a FR DM and player, since my first venture into RPGs with the "old grey box." I have always posted the things that matter most to me on the FR boards, mainly because these are the people I feel closest to. Changes through various game versions always seem to impact this campaign setting the most (i.e. the Time of Troubles to explain away the conversion to 2nd Edition mechanics). The change to v3.0 created the Regional feat and then v3.5 changed it to make it worthwhile to sacrifice a feat at 1st level to have it. I can't imagine 4.0 being produced without effecting game mechanics again.

The FR board is overwhelmingly filled with people that care for the campaign setting and its rich history. While most gamers tend to be vocal about their likes and dislikes, FR players will argue about the most obscure point of continuity... all out of a true love for the Realms. My choice to post this here was deliberate; I wanted those passionate about the Realms to speak up. Hopefully, someone at WOTC will take notice of OUR desires for the game. It helped to get Grand History of the Realms published! And yes, I'm buying two of those!
fozzybear
07-26-07, 07:01 PM You forgot the 5th basic core class, Psion. :-)
MarkusTay63
07-27-07, 10:51 PM I suppose... if you're into that sort of thing... ;)
Voric
07-30-07, 10:03 AM D&D 4e will be Rolemaster.

Perhaps minus the charts.
captaincarot
07-30-07, 11:10 AM absolutely nothing at all wrong with rolemaster.
mageelminster
07-30-07, 11:16 AM I was wondering if you can use a template as long as it has a level adjustment of +1 for the new Undermountain adventure at Gen Con.
Thanks,
El.
Voric
07-30-07, 11:36 AM absolutely nothing at all wrong with rolemaster.

I never believed there was. As a matter of fact, it is my personal system of choice. Very open, but with a tonne of detail.

Every new edition of D&D takes on more and more of a Rolemaster feel, even to the point of blatantly "borrowing" some of the mechanics in 3.x.

I simply feel that 4e will be something of a "Rolemaster Reborn" system, especially since the original developer went under, and as far as I know, nobody else has picked up the rights.
Calmar
08-01-07, 12:27 PM Maybe there will be such a vast amount of new features that they have to make it 5th edition right away. :P

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ArnimThayer 07-23-07, 12:31 AM	It seems inevitable that a 4th Edition is around the corner. With the release of Star Wars Saga Edition RPG, I think the prequel of things to come has been shown. Some of my fellow players and I have discussed this at length, and so here are our thoughts and wishes. Feel free to list your own thoughts and wishes, in hopes that any such version of our beloved game will take some input form such as us, the players. We think the 4th Edition will likely consolidate the Core classes back to Warrior, Rogue, Wizard and Cleric (like 1st Edition), with talent trees to custom make classes such as Pladin, Ranger, and Druid. I embrace the 10 level Core class idea with Advanced Classes being also 10 levels and PRCs having a standard format of 5 levels. I am not opposed to the idea of the ability score-based Core classes (ala D20 Modern - imagine, Drizzt as a Quick elf Fighter!) with the afore-mentioned COre classes becoming Advanced classes. A borrowing of the Starting Occupation mechanic in some form. This would allow the Warrior, for example, to have access to Search, Spot and Listen based on taking the Soldier occupation, skills that otherwise are not available without paying cross-class cost or multi-classing. A system for the Core classes alternating Talent trees selections with bonus feats specific per class (such as the Ability Score-based classes from D20 Modern) would also be welcome. This would allow players to use more of the way too many feats in existence. We suggest Divine feats for Clerics, Ambush feats for Rogues, Meta-Magic feats for Wizards, and Combat feats for Warriors. The Scout class allows a similar mechanic right now every four levels. A class-based Defense Bonus favoring those who DO NOT wear armor would be nice, the basic theory being that it would balance out how all classes advance their BAB, but AC is totally equipment based. Class-based Defense bonus has been used in every D20 game system created except D&D for some reason (Game of Thrones, Star Wars, and Wheel of Time to name a few). Consolidation of some skills (as already seen in Star Wars Saga) would be welcome also (though I feel Sleight of Hand should be folded into the new skill Deception, not Stealth), but taking away the spending of skill points aspect of the game (alas again, ala SWS) would take away some of the fun of character advancment. Eliminating redundant feat trees (Shot on the Run and Spring Attack, for example - both serve the same purpose... move and attack!) would also be welcome. The addition of Skill Tricks as a mainstream mechanic would be nice (think of them as Feat light or micro-Feat!). It is the only new mechanic that has seen universal use and embrace in my games. Any others?
Lord Karsus 07-23-07, 09:36 PM	-This really belongs in the D&D General section, as it really isn't FR-specific.
MarkusTay63 07-23-07, 10:21 PM	Four 10-level Core classes with substitution levels depending on race, region, specialization, etc would eliminate the need for so many core AND PrC's. How many 'devine fighter' types do we really need? Substitution levels are the easiest way to modify a class and specialize. Bringing back kits, or occupations as you call it, might be fun. Many of the 2e kits were flavor-only, and they really don't hold up well against a power-house PrC. Who the hell really bothers with levels that help with divinations? Just make 'Seer' and other low-key flavor options kits once again. Most Feats should be done along the lines of the tactical feats, with several different options depending on the situation, Some of the current are way to specialized to be useful in a variety of situations. Perhaps even a 'progression' within the feat, depending on how many levels you have it. It might be a little more bookeeping on the front-end, but it would be nice if Feats increased in function as you leveled. Maybe have them synergize with skills too - What you call 'skill tricks'. I agree that the AC system from UA is superior to the normal one - it only makes sense that a person who can move quicker would avoid more blows. Heavy armor did not keep you from getting hit, it just softened the blows. I understand the system is an abstract, but I could use a little bit more realism, and a combination of the two systems presented in UA is pretty damn near perfect. Just like you suggest with skill trees, I think something like that for magic would be nice. Powerful spells SHOULD require lower level spell pre-requisites - in other words, a mage who learns mostly fire spells should be able to produce better fire effects. If that sound too limiting, then attach a bonus instead - for each lower-level fire spell (or whatever) you already know, you get an extra +1 damage on one you are using. In this way, we make low-level spells count at higher levels. I believe an optional system called 'path magic' was presented in Dragon once. Lastly, a system for aiming. There should be a 'paper-doll' with numbers denoting the various locations on the body that are randomly rolled. Then, for each +1 over the needed roll, the attacker can adjust the location over by one. Suppose you need a 12 to hit and you roll a 16 and you get an abdominal hit - you can then shift it over to the chest, then neck, face, and finally farhead (for that "right between the eyes" shot). Of course, something more specific could be worked out, but you get the idea. If you attach a certain amount of hit points to each location (a'la the old Runequest rules), you can take out a target easier by taking better aim. More realism is key, and it makes combat far more interesting then just a bunch of dice rolls.
Renvale999 07-23-07, 11:10 PM	Another 4th edition thread...yay from the peanut gallery. Personally, I don't care when/if/where or why they release it. Bottomline, if it's before 2010, I'm attacking the WOTC headquarters with wet noodles and corn dogs....
ArnimThayer 07-24-07, 11:47 PM	My apologizes, Lord Karsus... you are correct that this isn't Realms specific. I am, foremost, a FR DM and player, since my first venture into RPGs with the "old grey box." I have always posted the things that matter most to me on the FR boards, mainly because these are the people I feel closest to. Changes through various game versions always seem to impact this campaign setting the most (i.e. the Time of Troubles to explain away the conversion to 2nd Edition mechanics). The change to v3.0 created the Regional feat and then v3.5 changed it to make it worthwhile to sacrifice a feat at 1st level to have it. I can't imagine 4.0 being produced without effecting game mechanics again. The FR board is overwhelmingly filled with people that care for the campaign setting and its rich history. While most gamers tend to be vocal about their likes and dislikes, FR players will argue about the most obscure point of continuity... all out of a true love for the Realms. My choice to post this here was deliberate; I wanted those passionate about the Realms to speak up. Hopefully, someone at WOTC will take notice of OUR desires for the game. It helped to get Grand History of the Realms published! And yes, I'm buying two of those!
fozzybear 07-26-07, 07:01 PM	You forgot the 5th basic core class, Psion. :-)
MarkusTay63 07-27-07, 10:51 PM	I suppose... if you're into that sort of thing... ;)
Voric 07-30-07, 10:03 AM	D&D 4e will be Rolemaster. Perhaps minus the charts.
captaincarot 07-30-07, 11:10 AM	absolutely nothing at all wrong with rolemaster.
mageelminster 07-30-07, 11:16 AM	I was wondering if you can use a template as long as it has a level adjustment of +1 for the new Undermountain adventure at Gen Con. Thanks, El.
Voric 07-30-07, 11:36 AM	absolutely nothing at all wrong with rolemaster. I never believed there was. As a matter of fact, it is my personal system of choice. Very open, but with a tonne of detail. Every new edition of D&D takes on more and more of a Rolemaster feel, even to the point of blatantly "borrowing" some of the mechanics in 3.x. I simply feel that 4e will be something of a "Rolemaster Reborn" system, especially since the original developer went under, and as far as I know, nobody else has picked up the rights.
Calmar 08-01-07, 12:27 PM	Maybe there will be such a vast amount of new features that they have to make it 5th edition right away. :P