Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shyntyrr The Cold 10-24-05, 07:24 AM	Ok, it goes without said that this dark elf trend can be getting way out of hand... currently I am campaigning with someone in the FR setting who is ALSO a dark elf... my problem? I enjoy playing the dark elf to the tee... none of this Drizzt Do'nothin' stuff. Currently my friend is basically a level 12 rip off of Drizzt Do'urden in every aspect and is also a good friend to the dungeon master (let alone a complete butt-kisser) and it just aggravates me to see that this kid isn't using his imagination at all... but... doing everything drizzt practically did from the books! Me, I like dark elves as a race because to ME they embody cunning, manipulation of those who possess lesser intelligence, guile, craftiness and betrayal... the things needed for anyone of any type to survive a hellish environment such as the underdark. And I'm sure this is a thorn in everyone's side if you campaign with people who DO play dark elves (especially if you play your dark elf character strictly along the guidelines of their evil nature, considering that there are TRULY VERY FEW dark elves who were considered GOOD in the first place until DRIZZT showed up, even then... their "good nature" was usually a ruse) My character "Shyntyrr" is a neutral evil character, who gives into his nagging greed and evil nature whenever the opportunity allows him to get away with it with very little reprocussions... My friend's character "Zarbryn" is a chaotic good character trying to BATTLE his evil nature and tries to take it out on my character... which, the DM condones.. (he's gone as so far as to qouting drizzt) My good people of wizards.com :P is there a way that I can counteract this in game favouritism and make it hard for his character IN GAME as drowishly possible for Zarbryn without having to incur that annoying "xp penalty" for actions in game involving out of game conduct? I want to do this by the BOOKS... especially for the people who play dark elves to their intentional evil roles! Anyway, I suppose that is my gripe concerning the dark elves as a playable race. I'm sure you guys will help me out.. and if ya'll have stories around this very same theme... I'd LOVE to hear them! Peace folks. P.s. Not all dark elf role players are goth/emo's :-P
Zandilar 10-24-05, 08:21 AM	Heya, In a word: Eilistraee. If not for Her, I'd agree with you. Not all drow are evil nasty people. Though I do agree with you, plagiarizing a character like Drizzt is tiresome (not to mention unimaginative), and picking on you is beyond the pale. Perhaps you should have a quiet word with the player and the DM (separately) and see if you can work something out? If not, I'd suggest leaving the game, and finding a group with a temperament better suited to you (ie: a group that doesn't mind playing evil characters). However, I'm only seeing things from your point of view*... Have you given any thought to the idea that you might not be contributing to a fun time either? (Evil and Good don't mix very well in a game, for a start...) (*A wise person once said... "Understanding is a three-edged sword, my side [you], your side [DM and other player], and the truth". Square brackets, are, of course, my additions.)
Shyntyrr The Cold 10-24-05, 09:21 AM	Yes, if truth be told... I just might be making a little more of this than what it really is... though I tend to keep my thoughts to myself in the game. Now, yeh I tried talking with them (that's where the xp loss came from). I understand at being new at something, but I also believe that new characters should also explore their own train of thought as opposed to... I don't know... Salva's? Now, his side... he said he wanted a good drow character (which, throughout the campaign he hasn't decided upon a diety... making him faithless I guess though he used to be with lolth) that spanned across faerun and made a name for himself aside from drizzt being the only one... this just might be a good idea considering that there already is another elf just like him... I would have encouraged him to started off as an evil character and worked his way to developing his character INTO a good one, aside from having the good status just handed to him without first getting a feel for what an evil subrace is... as for the game master? Well, let me put in this scenario... I play a level 12 ranger/assassin... with some pick pocket skill mind you... and while I was pickpocketing a npc, suddenly... out of NOWHERE, Zarbryn cries out to the woman she had better watch her purse, when he was facing the opposite way with a blind side to my pick pocketing attempts (being within view range and making a spot check against my pick pocket check)... that and being... oh, I don't know, some 20 feet away in a crowd of so many people yeh... I tend to get the idea that this "Goody two-shoes" bid just might get in the way...but the action was passed and I got caught and the city guard was called on me lol that and I have a feeling the dm might go easy on him because he's new... but still lol it's obnoxious. Besides, I acknowledge that evil characters are hard to get along with good characters but uh.. yeh, I suppose it's wrong for my nuetral evil characters to have npc good-aligned or nuetral aligned companions, eh? least according to my dm, though finding a new group might be sound advice :P Well, thanks for listening to me. I know the headaches we all must face when playing this game. Cheers!
Cainan 10-24-05, 10:43 AM	Well, I would take your side, but you're basically one cliche complaining about another cliche. I understand the Drizzt clones can be obnoxious, but if the guy is new, you can't really blame him. There is a good chance Drizzt is what brought him into DnD in the first place. For us to judge someone new for copying things that a fictional char has done is a bit hypocritical cause I seriously doubt any of us have never used fictional chars as a base for our own. Now, his char does sound annoying, but your char is probably equally annoying to him. Whereas he is playing the cliche good renegade drow, you seem to be playing the cliche shifty greedy backstabber drow hehe. But then again, playing drow is cliche these days. If you want to truly be unique and do something different, you should tell him about followers of Eilistraee, or you yourself play one. Make a char that is the child of someone like Qilue or Karsel'lyn, so that they have never been born to the underdark and the evil of drow. They would essentially be born ilythiiri in a way hehe. That is something most people tend to ignore. My current drow char I have floating about is a child of my old old renegade drow fighter and Karsel'lyn. He lives to bring drow to the light and show them the glory of Eilistraee and he has no taint of drow evil within him. But as for what you can do. Nothing really. You seem to be the odd man out. You're playing the evil char in what I'm guessing is a good campaign. Something, as a DM, I hate when people do especially when they decide to just randomly do evil stuff that totally interferes with the flow of the group. You're free to RP how you can, but if your group is good, you're gonna be a bit of a pain to them and I'm sure they are as frustrated with you as you are them. Now, the Drizzt guy, if he's new, you're not really gonna be able to change him. He's new and he probably got into the game cause of Drizzt and its what he wants to do. You take that away and he probably won't want to play cause he hasn't experienced much else. Just like people who play Legolas clones and what not, that's just what they want to do. If the DM is friends with this guy, then there isn't much point in bringing it up cause he's not gonna listen to you. Also, if you are the only evil guy, the DM is probably already frustrated with you and not about to take any lip since you're already annoying him. Now, I'm not trying to attack or insult you, just giving you my thoughts as a DM as to what this other DM is probably thinking, just from personal experience I have. I'm sure you're a great player, but you're coming of a bit of an elitist and if your group is fairly inexperienced, this is gonna irk them as well. If you're playing with mostly new people and the new guy especially is friends with the DM, you either gotta put up with it, or walk away, cause it's not gonna change. You also need to look at where the DM is coming from. If your group is all good and you are the only evil, you are proving to be more of a hassle to his game development than the Drizzt clone. As a DM, people copying fictional characters is annoying, but it doesn't tend to disrupt my games. People playing opposite of what the norm is of the group do. If you play your char well and don't do evil stuff out in the open where you'll get caught, you'd be fine in one of my games. But if you insist on stealing, cheating, murdering where the other players will see it, and it will impact them in some way, or impact the game negatively, I would get quite annoyed. So, anyway, my advice to you, since you seem to probably be a good RPer. Either walk away from the game, or if you want to play a drow and fit in better, play a natural good drow of Eilistraee. One not tainted by evil so you don't have to feel like you are a cliche renegade and maybe be like neutral if you still wanna do some mischief. Otherwise, all I can say is stop playing damn drow. =P Two in one game that isn't an all drow game is a bit overboard, especially if the other people are good aligned chars hehe. Also, my apologies if I came off a bit rude and sounded like a bit of an ass, I was just being blunt from a DM's perspective and going by the tone of your intial post. Not trying to be an ass, just laying it out. I wish you luck with your game though and I hope you guys can work something out.
Otus 10-24-05, 02:50 PM	Yeah, reminds me of a game a ran some time ago... Almost all new players, as Í wanted to show them d&d. Two drow (one CG Drizzt type, and one female half drow Lloth cleric-wannabe), one evil tiefling bard (you just have to try that one out some time), an aasimar paladin, an elven druid, a chaotic enchantress-type sorceress, two halflings, and a couple more I've forgot about. The group quite quickly split into two, as they couldn't find enought in common to actually stick together. That was a good thing actually: made the group sizes somehow manageable (I dm'd each group separately from there on). The two drow sticked together, since they were related (half-brother and -sister), which turn out quite wild (not surprisingly, the good one tried to redeem his evil sister). Their half of the original group also included the halflings, and the tiefling, who quite soom departed the group. In the end, it became a battle between me and them, them trying to go into a million different directions, and me trying to keep them together. I even had to make one of the drow find a cursed hat of disguise that stuck in his head (and made him look a mood elf), and the other be polymorphed into an avariel. It was fun while it lasted, but it didn't last too long :weep:
Shyntyrr The Cold 10-24-05, 04:20 PM	Sounded like fun, actually. Oh, and I've appreciated the honesty so far... and perhaps you guys do have a point. I've almost always have played as assassin or rogue chars because those are the characters I've excelled at... now for the race... I couldn't find a better subrace of elf to be! I wouldn't exactly call my drow character "cliche" seeing as most evil characters are out and ambitious in their evil... I kinda find fault in trying to do evil as soon as possible... makes your character more predictable if ya ask me. That's why I chose nuetral as a primary alignment over the secondary evil alignment... Such as, if his wallet ever gets thin, he'd rather steal from a noble who might not take much notice or bring too much attention from a few missing coins as opposed to someone who makes alot less. He'd also would much rather stay out of sight and listen to what's going around as to collect the information he needs to get what he feels he needs... that, and when it comes to betrayal 101, he would prefer to take a job (no matter how dirty it is) and collect information from both sides of the spectrum before deciding if he would betray or stick with the task at hand... whichever brings more to him in terms of rewards... not many other elf races I know that can really come from a backround that would encourage and help enhance his ability to be a shrewd character. So if I were to campaign with you guys, let's say, If I'm in a good aligned group of people, I recognize that being drow would be something that keeps them over my shoulder more than anything else... so if he were to do anything evil, it would be against people who would bring less attention to him... like lower middle-class... people that other people gernally don't care about... my team members would have to be asleep and I would have to be a good distance away to pull it off. That doesn't mean my character would be at ALL hostile or COMPLETELY distrustful of the characters I campaign with... because, sheesh... even villains have their own morals lol Such as Shyntyrr had chaotic good half-orc he enjoyed travelling with... even though they had their differences in terms of justice, evil and good... they met on the grounds that they enjoyed each others company and made a great team... so my character does have a respect for people being able to be individualistic enough to make their own decisions... be it good deeds or evil ones. Besides, my patron isn't typical for a dark elf, my character favors Shar... he tends to walk on Shar's shadowy path as best as he can, but also despises some of the cleric's selfish behavior enough to be a minor thorn on thier side. To make my point (finally, some of you might be thinking)... I've grown attached to Shyntyrr, but I'm willing to change Subraces... as long as that subrace can somewhatly go along these guidelines. Again, I welcome and enjoy your criticism and hope to hear from all of you soon... I've really enjoyed the posts, fellas! Keep them up!! :D
Jonathan Strange 10-25-05, 06:16 PM	I'd say if your DM was more fair and this player more experienced, you could start to act "good". Perhaps talk up Eilestree and her faithful, tell the DM you're going in a different direction. If your other players are evil, start trying to get them on your side. Nothing like acting as an evil drow really would. Once you have him at a disadvantage you and your allies should murder him. Even in our campaign of 30somethings that have been playing for eons, there would still probably be hard feelings over a move like that but it makes for great evil characters. I've DMed quite a few evil campaigns, they've all tried to kill and loot each other at some point. By your posts it seems this PC is a DM favorite. Is that true? If so, you may want to talk to your DM outside the game, preferrably with some of your other players. Nothing is worse than having your game goals stifled by some power tripping moron with a god complex. Evil campaigns can be so great but only if the DM stays nuetral and fair. I don't think a group of evil drow would suffer a goody two shoes for very long.
BrianCritchley 10-27-05, 10:28 PM	good drow can be intresting, if they aren't drizzt clones. one of the most intresting chars I ever played was a good drow. she was a cleric of elistraee, and had a a dark dark past. the DM loved her, he desribed her as a "biological plot hook" especially as she gave him a chance to toss us against good aligned foes. like an elven ranger who was CONVINCED our group must be up to no good.
theartistformerlyknownas 10-31-05, 03:58 AM	A very dear friend of mine played a drow that was found as a babe in the Cormanthor forest and adopted by a sun elf psion. And although he was Nuetral Good, he had to struggle with the whole good/evil dilemma due to the inherent nature of drow. He knew the reputation of his people, and vowed to never take up a sword. He character began his adventuring career by having his home-town, (including his adopted father, wife, and unborn child) slaughtered by a group of mind flayers when they discovered the secret enclave. He took his father's sword (a very unique psionic moonblade), and tracked the mind flayers on a quest for justice, or vengence, or for a myriad other self-justifications. He struggled all the while with his anger, his bloodlust, and his grief. His quest took him into the bowels of the underdark (where he visited the dark cities of his people) and across the planes, (picking up a few levels of Illithid Slayer) and eventually to the Realms, where my character, an elven Harper, met him for the first time. By the time he had been introduced into my campaign he was a 15th lvl Psychic Warrior/5th level Planar Champion/10th level Illithid Slayer. He died defending our party from an infernal abomination, and never fufilled his quest, never found the illithids that ripped the peaceful reality that his kind could never know, away from him. He was the most memorable character I have ever seen roleplayed in any game or novel, a character that had broken the bounds of the cliche "renegade drow", as well as the standards of his own people. He was a character apart, his story not so different but for the color of his skin and the environment in which he was raised. If you want to break the mold, don't start with making the character drow. Find the history of the character first, then apply that history, that drive and reason for adventure, to the race. You make it seem as if the dark elves are a restriction, black and white, either an backstabbing murderer, or a self-righteous renegade and in truth, they have all the reasons for going to the surface as anyone else. If they seek to escape from the "wickedness of their people". You just made a Drizzt clone. Unacceptable. If one of my players came to me with that character concept, I'd tell them to give me something to work with. Some history, some quirks. As a DM, I make playing exotic races a challenge for my characters, if they can't make me tell a good story with that character, they will be tragically killed off shortly into the campaign. It may seem unfair, but the game is a story, and the cast is vital to that. A renegade drow warrior is all fine and dandy in my book, (provided they stay away from scimitars and black cats), and they can give me some reason as to why they decided to leave the decadant, wealthy and beautiful cities of their people and live life as an outcast other than "it rubbed me the wrong way". I commend Bob Salvatore for the Drizzt series, I love every last book, and Drizzt is the primary reason for that. And THAT is why I'm so insulted by munchkin players ripping off and attempting to take some pathetic credit for the idea.
Rauric 11-01-05, 03:26 PM	Sounded like fun, actually. Oh, and I've appreciated the honesty so far... and perhaps you guys do have a point. I've almost always have played as assassin or rogue chars because those are the characters I've excelled at... now for the race... I couldn't find a better subrace of elf to be! I wouldn't exactly call my drow character "cliche" seeing as most evil characters are out and ambitious in their evil... I kinda find fault in trying to do evil as soon as possible... makes your character more predictable if ya ask me. That's why I chose nuetral as a primary alignment over the secondary evil alignment... Such as, if his wallet ever gets thin, he'd rather steal from a noble who might not take much notice or bring too much attention from a few missing coins as opposed to someone who makes alot less. He'd also would much rather stay out of sight and listen to what's going around as to collect the information he needs to get what he feels he needs... that, and when it comes to betrayal 101, he would prefer to take a job (no matter how dirty it is) and collect information from both sides of the spectrum before deciding if he would betray or stick with the task at hand... whichever brings more to him in terms of rewards... not many other elf races I know that can really come from a backround that would encourage and help enhance his ability to be a shrewd character. So if I were to campaign with you guys, let's say, If I'm in a good aligned group of people, I recognize that being drow would be something that keeps them over my shoulder more than anything else... so if he were to do anything evil, it would be against people who would bring less attention to him... like lower middle-class... people that other people gernally don't care about... my team members would have to be asleep and I would have to be a good distance away to pull it off. That doesn't mean my character would be at ALL hostile or COMPLETELY distrustful of the characters I campaign with... because, sheesh... even villains have their own morals lol Such as Shyntyrr had chaotic good half-orc he enjoyed travelling with... even though they had their differences in terms of justice, evil and good... they met on the grounds that they enjoyed each others company and made a great team... so my character does have a respect for people being able to be individualistic enough to make their own decisions... be it good deeds or evil ones. Besides, my patron isn't typical for a dark elf, my character favors Shar... he tends to walk on Shar's shadowy path as best as he can, but also despises some of the cleric's selfish behavior enough to be a minor thorn on thier side. To make my point (finally, some of you might be thinking)... I've grown attached to Shyntyrr, but I'm willing to change Subraces... as long as that subrace can somewhatly go along these guidelines. Again, I welcome and enjoy your criticism and hope to hear from all of you soon... I've really enjoyed the posts, fellas! Keep them up!! :D Things to think about. If your a high level assasin why do ya need to pickpocket anyone? The only real time you should do that is to assist your group or to pilfer an item off someone that may be a potential kill. Even high level rogs might not just pickpocket random folks, even rich people. Why draw attention to yourself? Especially if your travling companions are of a goodly sort. If ya pick pockest, do it at night and AWAY from your associates. Less hassle that way. I like evil in a group or evil groups when they are played like anti-heros. If a group of heros are traveling with one individual who is only out for himself, well that really doesn't make much sense. The group will usually say "See ya buddy". There is only so much evil a good group will put up with. Does the group know you worship Shar? She is just as bad as Loth when it comes to surface dwellers. Maybe moreso with her teachings of HATE and destroying the MULTIVERSE.