Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alediran 01-30-08, 03:40 PM	After reading the new Countdown to the Realms the only veredict I can give is that developers were replaced by a cult of mindless Sharists who don't have the slight idea about consistency.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-30-08, 04:04 PM	Is this about the new Realmslore article regarding magic, and the bit about Shar somehow "blocking" a new deity of magic from ascending? To be fair, Shar lost out too--she no longer has any kind of control over the Shadow Weave. So :P to the people who were rooting for her!
Alediran 01-30-08, 04:07 PM	Yes, exactly that part and the whole Spellplague debacle, that shouldn't be possible since raw magic isn't contained by the Weave.
Charles Phipps 01-30-08, 04:08 PM	I'm almost done with my review of the article for my thread, BTW.
Reneshat 01-30-08, 05:00 PM	...... I don't know what to say.
Kenzuki 01-30-08, 05:11 PM	I do. Would you like some cheese with your whine?
Charles Phipps 01-30-08, 05:13 PM	I do. Would you like some cheese with your whine? I'm sorry, but we're going to have to ask you to leave the restaurant. You're disturbing the other patrons. Okay, my review is up and I'm mostly just taking stock at this point before I make any serious comments. We know what's GONE but very little about what's replacing it.
Kenzuki 01-30-08, 05:14 PM	I'm sorry. It's just it's getting annoying peeking into just about every 4th edition Realms thread of new information and hearing this guy whine.
Charles Phipps 01-30-08, 05:16 PM	I'm sorry. It's just it's getting annoying peeking into just about every 4th edition Realms thread of new information and hearing this guy whine. Like I said, I'm reserving any :censored: until I actually have purchased 4E Realms and then I'll make my judgments then. Nevertheless, the internet is about getting overly emotional over stupid stuff. It's sort of it's purpose. That and porn.
Reneshat 01-30-08, 05:28 PM	That and porn. "The internet is really, really great...."
Red_Wizard 01-30-08, 06:05 PM	Even the long forgotten world of Abeir burned in the plague of spells, despite having been unreachable and cut off from Faerûn for tens of millennia. Portions of Abeir’s landscape were transposed with areas of Toril in the disaster. Such landscapes included their living populations, and thus places such as Akanûl and Tymanther lie as if new-birthed on Faerûn’s face. Across the Trackless Sea, and entire continent of the lost realm reappeared (called Returned Abeir) subsuming the continent of Maztica Are they implying Abeir and Toril, rather than being the full name for a single plant, were in fact two separate planets entirely? I won't lie. Such a notion angers me greatly. -RW
Charles Phipps 01-30-08, 06:13 PM	I'm sure there's a story there somewhere.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-30-08, 07:29 PM	Are they implying Abeir and Toril, rather than being the full name for a single plant, were in fact two separate planets entirely? Yes. And they've been dropping hints about it for a while now (I don't like the concept, myself).
Thinblade 01-30-08, 07:37 PM	Did they even *bother* to read Realmspace? No, of course not. That would fall under the category of "research," with the 4e design team is obviously too good to need.
Red_Wizard 01-30-08, 08:26 PM	Yes. And they've been dropping hints about it for a while now (I don't like the concept, myself). I read, and re-read the article, and then asked anyway in the hopes that I had somehow imbibed some intoxicating drink without realizing it. Sadly I suppose that isn't the case. -RW
BadCatMan 01-30-08, 08:50 PM	Abeir is an entirely separate world, wha? It was always Abeir-Toril, meaning "Cradle Of Life" - a single world. The Old Empires destroyed and overwritten with new nations. The entirety of Maztica vanished and replaced. Halruua spontaneously exploded. This is ridiculous. They're taking the ****. More jarringly transplanted nations and arbitrary destruction. More dragons and liches powerful enough to challenge gods. It's the same old mistakes of the past, and the same old criticisms and complaints will be levelled at the new FR. And why the hell are fighters and rogues powered by magic?
Thinblade 01-30-08, 09:42 PM	Maybe they just overdosed on the Earthdawn setting...
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 12:43 AM	-I, for one, make sure to always write out Abeir-Toril when referencing the planet, and will continue to do so, new lore be damned. -Anyway, Stardeep reveals that: -Long ago, much before the Creator Races, Abberations ruled the world of Abeir-Toril. Ancient deities, none of which have ever been named or anything, but I am hypothesizing that they were the unnamed 5 Yuir deities, fought the Abberations, and sent them packing to 'Abeir', and sent them away, thus making the planet only 'Toril'. Now, apparently, they are back. -Very bad lore, bad research. But, what were you expecting? Really?
Reneshat 01-31-08, 01:15 AM	-I, for one, make sure to always write out Abeir-Toril when referencing the planet, and will continue to do so, new lore be damned. -Anyway, Stardeep reveals that: Rich has disagreed with the assertion that Abeir has anything to do with the Abberations. So it could be a definite possibility of one hand not knowing what the other is doing. We will have to wait and see.
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 01:20 AM	Rich has disagreed with the assertion that Abeir has anything to do with the Abberations. -Rich doesn't know what he's talking about, then, as Bruce has expressly linked it with Abberations.
Reneshat 01-31-08, 01:28 AM	-Rich doesn't know what he's talking about, then, as Bruce has expressly linked it with Abberations. Ugg, does that mean that they replaced Maztica with Beholder Island? :behold: Or worse?:88E:
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 01:30 AM	Ugg, does that mean that they replaced Maztica with Beholder Island? :behold: Or worse?:88E: -The latter, quite possibly. That's going to be one hell of an island, though, as Maztica was a pretty big place.
Reneshat 01-31-08, 01:33 AM	-The latter, quite possibly. That's going to be one hell of an island, though, as Maztica was a pretty big place. Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'll skip adventuring in that place....
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 01:38 AM	Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'll skip adventuring in that place.... -But...But...It's 'cool'! 'Cool' enough to get you 'sick'! 'Sick' enough to give you 'some awe'!
Mr_Miscellany 01-31-08, 01:55 AM	Did they even *bother* to read Realmspace? No, of course not. That would fall under the category of "research," with the 4e design team is obviously too good to need. People should be very, very careful before making comments of this sort. Not only do you not know what you're talking about (i.e. what the design team is and is not doing), but you also don't know how many ideas WotC is using that have been on the back burner with regard to Greenwood's own design notes and ideas for the Realms. (That, and Realmspace is more crap, borrowed from a crappy pile of crap that was Spelljammer.) :P
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 01:57 AM	(That, and Realmspace is more crap, borrowed from a crappy pile of crap that was Spelljammer.) :P "[You] should be very, very careful before making comments of this sort."
Mr_Miscellany 01-31-08, 01:59 AM	Why? Were you around when it was released? Ever played it? Spelljammer was pure stupid. Some people liked it, but frankly it should have gone and died when 3E came out. It's crap-lore that makes the newer, more fit Realms look like a haggard old man dressed in used doggy bags.
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 02:06 AM	Were you around when it was released? Ever played it? -Yes. Yes. Spelljammer was pure stupid. -And some people liked the idea of a Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. Some people liked it, but frankly it should have gone and died when 3E came out. -It mostly did. Recieving no support is more or less a death sentence, as Maztica found out.
MarkusTay63 01-31-08, 02:40 AM	Rich has disagreed with the assertion that Abeir has anything to do with the Abberations. So it could be a definite possibility of one hand not knowing what the other is doing.Wouldn't be the first time. I wonder if the new FRCG will disagree with itself? :P
Charles Phipps 01-31-08, 02:44 AM	Spelljammer was pure stupid. Some people liked it, but frankly it should have gone and died when 3E came out. Spelljammer I think worked extremely well, provided you ignored the wonky physics. I think Spelljammer fans never liked me because I just made it a game about enchanted vessels traveling through space.
Reneshat 01-31-08, 02:50 AM	Spelljammer I think worked extremely well, provided you ignored the wonky physics. I think Spelljammer fans never liked me because I just made it a game about enchanted vessels traveling through space. That's pretty much what Spelljammer is. That and Giant Space Hamsters....
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 02:53 AM	I wonder if the new FRCG will disagree with itself? :P -I'm sure, at points, just like the 3e and 2e probably contadict themselves at point, and other campaign setting books, as well. I think Spelljammer fans never liked me because I just made it a game about enchanted vessels traveling through space. -What is Spelljammer, if not this?
Charles Phipps 01-31-08, 02:56 AM	-What is Spelljammer, if not this? YOU try and explain "I don't use Crystal Spheres or Victorian Gas Pockets between them" :-)
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 03:09 AM	-I don't use Crystal Spheres literally. I use the term as simply another word for 'Solar System', which, I mean, they are.
Charles Phipps 01-31-08, 03:58 AM	-I don't use Crystal Spheres literally. I use the term as simply another word for 'Solar System', which, I mean, they are. Yes, honestly, Spelljamming works well in my games. I toned it down a little with less "Gigantic Jesters tossing planetary balls" unless I truly wanted to freak out my players. But even on Faerun, I have visiting the Moon and even one hilariously funny adventures where the player characters unwittingly visited Cybertron (I called it "Mechanus" since my players were on the Great Tree and populated it with Modrones who suspiciously resembled Autobots) Yes, not all my games are serious.
Alediran 01-31-08, 06:14 AM	That last post was funny. I always wanted to play Spelljammer, since when I was only eight I wanted to go to space.
MarkusTay63 01-31-08, 12:12 PM	Spelljammer was Okay, if you stripped-out all the silliness. In another thread, Gray and I discussed the possibility of the Phlogiston being the 'Deep Shadow', whilst arcane space represented the 'Border Shadow' (very similar to the way the Ethereal worked). That way, we partially rectified Spelljaming within the 3e rules, and allowed that ships were actually sailing through the Shadow Void. Now, with what little we know of 4e, it appears the new 'Spelljammer' setting will be the Astral Sea, with things like the Ships of Chaos being capable of traveling between worlds. Funny that those were created in a fairly recent Fiend tome (post 4e summit), and then IMMEDIATELY used in the WotSQ series. ;) They took back the rights to Spelljammer in order to use some of it with the new Astral, and they took back the rights to Ravenloft in order to incorporate some of it into the Shadowfel. They were going to take back Dragonlance in order to give us Draconians, but instead extended Margaret Weiss's contract and changed the name of them. Everything they have done in the last 2-3 years has been to consolidate their Intellectual Properties and 'refurbish' them for 4e. The writing is on the wall. And to continue further down this train of thought, at least 90% of the Feywild is taken from the Birthright setting. They haven't really created anything new - they are like children with glue and scissors, pasting together 'past glories' and trying to take credit for what others have done before, when all they have really done is create a mess and a lot of 'spilled glue'. :(
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 12:17 PM	I always wanted to play Spelljammer, since when I was only eight I wanted to go to space. -The :censored:head that I game with often (doesn't every table have at least one?), his father is an astronaut who actually did do go into space.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-31-08, 01:24 PM	And to continue further down this train of thought, at least 90% of the Feywild is taken from the Birthright setting. Just out of curiosity, what makes you say that? I'm just asking because the Feywild as described for 4E seems pretty "generic" and non-specific to me, like any number of enchanted, fey-populated fantasy locales could be.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-31-08, 01:25 PM	-The :censored:head that I game with often (doesn't every table have at least one?), his father is an astronaut who actually did do go into space. Is that your, ah, player who shot your Jedi PC in the head?
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 01:56 PM	Is that your, ah, player who shot your Jedi PC in the head? -Damn, come to think of it, I have two :censored:head members of the gaming party. -Nah, that was my Stepfather, this is someone else. Though, in my stepfathers defense, that was only one character and one incident, while with this other person, it's multiple characters and multiple incidents. He's one of those people that, besides for cheating in D&D, he can do everything better than you, knows someone who can do something better than someone you know, and so on. That kind of person. Oddly enough, of the 7 or 8 other people in the group, I am the only one he's never insulted, or gotten into a mild argument with, I kid you not. -Let's see...He's told my sister, who is an amateur opera singer, that he has perfect pitch, and can sing with vibrando (which is actually impossible), my Stepfather, who is a cop, that he can shoot better than him, my Stepfather's friend, who is a bigger Star Wars fanatic than me (only by virtue that he is about 15 years older than me, and has a well-paying full-time job) that George Lucas actually didn't write Star Wars, told said individual's wife, who likes to cook, that he could cook better than her. -The only reason he's around is because my Stepfather works with and is friends with his wife. Why, I don't know, as she is the most boring and bland person I've ever met, but whatever...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-31-08, 02:05 PM	Wow, that player sounds like a real gem of a guy.:rolleyes:
GothicDan 01-31-08, 03:18 PM	So, people keep telling others to "wait and see" before they complain. And as others state what they dislike, as new bits are released, we are told to "keep waiting." My question: when do people here find it is appropriate to form opinions on things?
Alediran 01-31-08, 03:21 PM	So, people keep telling others to "wait and see" before they complain. And as others state what they dislike, as new bits are released, we are told to "keep waiting." My question: when do people here find it is appropriate to form opinions on things? There are many people who are afraid of having an opinion. Cowards.
Charles Phipps 01-31-08, 03:31 PM	So, people keep telling others to "wait and see" before they complain. And as others state what they dislike, as new bits are released, we are told to "keep waiting." My question: when do people here find it is appropriate to form opinions on things? Alediran's opinion, suffice to say, doesn't reflect my thoughts. When the actual book is in hand, I will make a final judgment. I have a thread on my opinion.
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 03:32 PM	So, people keep telling others to "wait and see" before they complain. And as others state what they dislike, as new bits are released, we are told to "keep waiting." My question: when do people here find it is appropriate to form opinions on things? -When the final product (4e FRCS) is released? But, even then, the caveat can be that "We still don't know exactly what is planned with that. Let's wait and see what they do with it in the 4e Races of Faerûn, or 4e Magic of Faerûn, and so on."
Charles Phipps 01-31-08, 03:34 PM	The litmus test will be the Campaign Setting for me, Lord Karsus. However, I won't judge it until I have the actual book in hand.
MarkusTay63 01-31-08, 03:56 PM	Just out of curiosity, what makes you say that? I'm just asking because the Feywild as described for 4E seems pretty "generic" and non-specific to me, like any number of enchanted, fey-populated fantasy locales could be.Yes it is, but the only other D&D setting that touched on Faerie at all was Mystara (not counting Planescape's take, which was from a planar point of view, not prime), and Mystara treated the fey races as part of the world, not as something that lived in an ajoining parrallel plane. The Feywild just sounds like the closest official D&D setting's version (Birthright's), which you are correct is based heavily on known Faerie lore. The Shadowfel seems like an amalgam of Birthright's corrupted parts of Faerie, called the Shadow World, and the Shadowlands from 3e OA's Rokugan - Excerpt from the Birthright Fey material: The greatest terrors of the Shadow World lie not only in its creatures — things both seen and unseen—but in the unperceived. A trickster spirit rules the Shadow World and confounds all mortal senses. Even the most knowledgeable guides and learned loremasters do not fully understand the workings of this mysterious realm. On Aebrynis, where the laws of nature and magic both apply normally, one expects a rock to fall when it is dropped , fire to burn until it has nothing left to consume, and the mystical energy of a spell to discharge according to the rules of magic. In the Shadow World, these laws are suborned by an even greater force: the Seeming. An unpredictable force, the Seeming cannot be truly explained, as every rule set to quantify it appears full of exceptions and contradictions. Still, Dungeon Masters who wish to run adventures in the Shadow World — or in areas of Cerilia where the Shadow World has begun to encroach—may use the following guidelines to adjudicate the unexplainable . The Shadow World is steeped in the Seeming, a word which comes from an ancient elven term meaning both master spirit and true illusion. According to elven legends, the word first saw use before the Shadow World and Aebrynis were separated as they are now. Then, creatures of these two lands lived together, until a rift between the two drove them apart. The whys and hows of that ancient time are not clear (one legend is recounted on the next page), but it is said the elves still retain a racial fear of the Shadow World and its creatures—a fear they cannot explain. Only a few elves are known to have mastered their fear enough to walk in the Shadow World and return alive. None have related their experiences to others. It just appears to me that they will be using a lot of this premise for the Feywild and Shadowfell in 4e, and the fact that that part discusses the world of Aebrynis was split off from another, and that it sounds way too much like Abeir, scares the Bejeezus out of me! :eek:
msatran 01-31-08, 05:06 PM	Well, here's my sarcastic comment. Who created Birthright? Richard Baker? Coincidence? I think not.
MarkusTay63 01-31-08, 06:02 PM	Truthfully though, each of the FR design team had a hand in bringing us a little something of themselves - Bruce Cordell is handing us the Aberrations, for instance.
Fabius Maximus 01-31-08, 06:08 PM	Spelljammer was Okay, if you stripped-out all the silliness. Which is a whole lot of work. 'Skros'? Gith-pirates in garish clothing? Those hippo-men-things? They are worse than those two-legged elephants. They really run out of ideas in this setting, so they made it just to mock the rest of AD&D.
MarkusTay63 01-31-08, 06:29 PM	I liked the Scro, and their were other things that were kinda cool - like those flying Dwarven Mountain fortresses, the Arcane (3e Mercane), the Hadozee (which made it into 3e), most of the ship-types, the Neogi, and a few other neat things, like interesting locales (and Beholder bartenders!). It was cool, if you killed off the Tinker Gnomes, and made the various spheres more realistic. There was tons of potential there, but they blew it by going the 'zaney' route with the setting. A more serious version, using the Astral sea, would work well, and could even have a psuedo-gothic feel ala Ravenloft.
dav 01-31-08, 06:36 PM	Like I said, I'm reserving any :censored: until I actually have purchased 4E Realms and then I'll make my judgments then. You should probably consider looking over it in the store before you buy it. Thats why places like Borders and B&N have those chairs all over the store, so you can look at the stuff before you buy. If you buy it and dont like it youll have told Wizards that you DO like it by giving them money for it.
Charles Phipps 01-31-08, 06:46 PM	You should probably consider looking over it in the store before you buy it. Thats why places like Borders and B&N have those chairs all over the store, so you can look at the stuff before you buy. If you buy it and dont like it youll have told Wizards that you DO like it by giving them money for it. Well, Ed wrote some of it and he deserves any bit of the pocket money he gets.
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 07:53 PM	If you buy it and dont like it youll have told Wizards that you DO like it by giving them money for it. -What's what reciepts are for. ;)
MarkusTay63 01-31-08, 10:53 PM	If I like it, great... if I don't, then I consider it a 'farewell present' to WotC. ;)
Mad_Mickelson 01-31-08, 11:59 PM	-What's what reciepts are for. ;) -Or if you are of suspect morality that's what P2P programs are for :P
Lord Karsus 02-01-08, 12:07 AM	-Or if you are of suspect morality that's what P2P programs are for :P - :: GASP! ::
Mad_Mickelson 02-01-08, 12:26 AM	- :: GASP! :: -OMG LORD KARSUS IS SPEECHLESS :confused: ... that's a first :eek:
MarkusTay63 02-01-08, 12:44 AM	Meh - they're only good for resources I don't plan to use IG. If I'm going to actually use it at my table, I need a book in my hands. Besides, the art and Ed's parts alone might make the purchase worth it. ;)
Lord Karsus 02-01-08, 12:45 AM	-OMG LORD KARSUS IS SPEECHLESS :confused: ... that's a first :eek: -I've been speechless a few times. Most of them involved blatent or vague sexual innuendo, however.
Mad_Mickelson 02-01-08, 12:58 AM	-I've been speechless a few times. Most of them involved blatent or vague sexual innuendo, however. -LMAO sorry I don't mean to sound nasty or rude, but in saying that man, I now have images in my head of the 40 year old virgin riding his bike home contemplating bags of sand. :rofl:
Lord Karsus 02-01-08, 02:19 AM	-LMAO sorry I don't mean to sound nasty or rude, but in saying that man, I now have images in my head of the 40 year old virgin riding his bike home contemplating bags of sand. :rofl: -Damn it. Well, worry you not, that's not me. ;)
Alediran 02-01-08, 07:06 AM	If it's for the Art you'll have it online.
MarkusTay63 02-01-08, 12:48 PM	Are you sure about that? Some of 3e's books never had their art posted, and I notice the only two 4e books thus far released (the previews) have NOT had their art posted.
Lord Karsus 02-01-08, 12:51 PM	Are you sure about that? -95% of the 3e books had their art posted online. But, that was 3e, and this is 4e. You don't know.
XHereticX 02-01-08, 01:58 PM	-LMAO sorry I don't mean to sound nasty or rude, but in saying that man, I now have images in my head of the 40 year old virgin riding his bike home contemplating bags of sand. :rofl: I was going to watch that movie (40 year Old Virgin) on a marching band bus, but obviously the instructors never let us watch an unrated movie.:(
Lord Karsus 02-01-08, 02:17 PM	I was going to watch that movie (40 year Old Virgin) on a marching band bus, but obviously the instructors never let us watch an unrated movie.:( -Marching Band, FTW. -As for the movie, I didn't see it until recently, but it is hillariously funny. And, what makes it even better is that I am sure there are people on these boards who the main character of said movie is like. :rofl:
XHereticX 02-01-08, 02:30 PM	Shh, try not to offend anyone...
Lord Karsus 02-01-08, 02:42 PM	-I didn't name and names, and I am merely speculating. :incog:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 02:51 PM	So, people keep telling others to "wait and see" before they complain. And as others state what they dislike, as new bits are released, we are told to "keep waiting." My question: when do people here find it is appropriate to form opinions on things? Probably after the 4E FR setting's been out for 4, maybe 5 years. Until then, it's just too early to make a decision!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 02:54 PM	It just appears to me that they will be using a lot of this premise for the Feywild and Shadowfell in 4e, and the fact that that part discusses the world of Aebrynis was split off from another, and that it sounds way too much like Abeir, scares the Bejeezus out of me! :eek: Heh! There may be something to that.:) Thanks for the information.
XHereticX 02-01-08, 03:49 PM	Yeah, I don't like the sound of this two world thing either. I personally think it's just an excuse to introduce elements into the Realms which otherwise woudn't have fit.
Lord Karsus 02-02-08, 02:50 AM	Yeah, I don't like the sound of this two world thing either. I personally think it's just an excuse to introduce elements into the Realms which otherwise woudn't have fit. -Don't get me started on that. Seriously, I'm getting sick of hearing myself. :rolleyes:
Priamon 02-02-08, 08:27 AM	Like I said, I'm reserving any :censored: until I actually have purchased 4E Realms and then I'll make my judgments then. Nevertheless, the internet is about getting overly emotional over stupid stuff. It's sort of it's purpose. That and porn. Quote for Truth.
Mr. Wilson 02-03-08, 01:07 AM	So, people keep telling others to "wait and see" before they complain. And as others state what they dislike, as new bits are released, we are told to "keep waiting." My question: when do people here find it is appropriate to form opinions on things? When I have the FRCG in my hands, I will then feel free to judge it. Honestly, though I am a tad skeptical of the changes and articles presented so far, prejudging the work from brief articles before actually seeing the whole work seems silly and is an urge I am trying to resist. I just hope I don't buy the first book and decide I won't buy anymore. Like I did with the NWoD. addendum: Admittedly, some of the information released IS making it rather hard to remain non-judgemental.
killraven 02-03-08, 08:04 AM	After reading the new Countdown to the Realms the only veredict I can give is that developers were replaced by a cult of mindless Sharists who don't have the slight idea about consistency. Well the premises are quite bad: they're resetting (!!) all of the FR background, like if it was a messy blackboard, just to make it less complicate for new kiddos that start playing in these times... It's a bit like if our history books at schools were dumped of some pages, just to make history more attractive for our students WEEEEEEEIIIIIRRRRDD :^P
canadianguy 02-03-08, 10:02 AM	What bothers me most about this huge gutting of the realms lore and remaking it is the whole sale rip off of mmmmmmmmmmm Love Craft, old Gygax story lines and mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm War Crack. Create your own damn world don't transfer them all into the realms!
MarkusTay63 02-03-08, 11:41 AM	I've said it before - lord knows there's enough threads about this cr@p, but - My problem isn't with the changes; in fact, now that I've had time to digest it, I think I can work with the Draconians, and the nation of Tymanther isn't that bad a replacement for Unther - after all, the country was already gone by the end of 3e. The more I think about it, the more I think some of the apocalyptic changes are workable, with some tweaking. That doesn't mean I like most of them, but I can find a way for them to make more sense. Which brings me to my point - it doesn't seem like a lot of thought went into 4e FR - certain designers wanted to see certain ideas of their's see fruition, and rather then wortk with established lore and figure out logical reasons for everything, they took the 'fast and easy' route and gave us the Spellplague and Abeir. The Spellplague, I feel, was a neccessary evil, because magic changed with the new edition. I don't for a second believe we needed 94 years to do it - that was just a nasty way of eliminationg most ofthe NPCs that were created by Ed and other great designers that have gone before. This 'Abeir' thing is just awful - it reads like a comic book... a BAD comic book. That had to be the cheesiest way for the current FR team to erase stuff that they personally didn't care for, and replace it with their own 'pet projects'. Don't get me wrong - I'm glad Maztica got replaced (although 'fixing' it would have been more considerate), but I just think something less cataclysmic then the "disasterous merging of two worlds" could have been done. In fact, even thats not so bad had it been handled right... When I really, REALLY think about it, it's the way in which these things were fed to us piecemeal, without the 'big story', that probably has everyone in an uproar. Who knows? All of these things, including the incredibly stupid god-stuff, might have really good stories behind them, but now that we already dislike them, its going to be VERY hard for WotC to bounce back from that, no matter how good the explanations in the FRCG are. Also, its the rather calous way the new designers are just throwing away everything we love, because THEY can't be bothered with learning the lore. Everytime they write a novel, the community attacks them for the brazen holes in continuity. They don't like that, so rather then actually studying the stuff they write about, they decided to get rid of it so that their own poor research skills aren't so blatant. Thats not called 'creativity' - thats called "lowering the standards". Now anyone can write in the Realms, because you don't need any knowledge of it. :( So thats it in a nutshell - horrendous presentation of the new material, and a total lack of respect for what has gone before. We are fans of FR BECAUSE of the old material, not IN SPITE OF IT!!! One last thing - I think if Elaine C. writes a novel about what happened between Torm and Helm, it might work. I hate to sound like a male chauvenist pig, but thats a story that DEFINATELY will require a female touch to get right. If a man does it, it will read like a WWF match. :nonono:
Lord Karsus 02-03-08, 12:19 PM	Well the premises are quite bad: they're resetting (!!) all of the FR background, like if it was a messy blackboard, just to make it less complicate for new kiddos that start playing in these times... It's a bit like if our history books at schools were dumped of some pages, just to make history more attractive for our students -Yeah, strangely enough, that does seem like what's happening.
XHereticX 02-03-08, 12:34 PM	When I have the FRCG in my hands, I will then feel free to judge it. Honestly, though I am a tad skeptical of the changes and articles presented so far, prejudging the work from brief articles before actually seeing the whole work seems silly and is an urge I am trying to resist. I just hope I don't buy the first book and decide I won't buy anymore. Like I did with the NWoD. addendum: Admittedly, some of the information released IS making it rather hard to remain non-judgemental. I am in total concordance with you and MK63 on this.:)
MarkusTay63 02-03-08, 01:23 PM	-Yeah, strangely enough, that does seem like what's happening.It happens with real history too, but I don't feel like getting heavily into here. One of the most blatant examples was Roman history of the world, which always portrays the Romans as "bringers of civilization to the barbaric hordes", and yet, many of those 'barbarians' had thriving cultures of their own before the Romans came along. History is only as accurate as those reporting it, which has always given us quite a bit of leeway in FR. The Kara-Tur material even specifically states that much of the official histories were re-written to cast Shou-Lung in a more favorable light. However, that sort of 'light revision' has always been acceptable to most folks - this new blatant disregard for all that has gone before is just completely disrespectful to the people who came up with most of it. The Forgotten Realms have always been a 'shared world', at least since Ed sold it to TSR. This wanton destruction of other peoples ideas goes completely against the concept that made FR great in the first place. :( Why bother creating anything for this world, when the Nimrod in charge can just eject it in five years when we get 5e? :bored:
Lord Karsus 02-03-08, 01:29 PM	The Forgotten Realms have alwways been a 'shared world', at least since Ed sold it to TSR. This wanton destruction of other peoples ideas goes completely against the concept that made FR great in the first place. :( -Elaine recently answered a question about Matron Mother Shakti Hun'ett, over at Candlekeep recently. To paraphrase, you know what her response was? 'I don't want to say anything, because another author might like the character, and want to do something with her.' Mind you, Shakti is her character and all. -If only these kinds of sentiments were more widespread.
MarkusTay63 02-03-08, 03:40 PM	She's probably afraid that if she shows any sort of 'like' for the character, some other spiteful author will come along and 'kill it'. I think some of the RW people in charge wouldn't mind doing a little of this "Kill them and take their stuff" to others with more talent. :(
XHereticX 02-03-08, 05:02 PM	She's probably afraid that if she shows any sort of 'like' for the character, some other spiteful author will come along and 'kill it'. I think some of the RW people in charge wouldn't mind doing a little of this "Kill them and take their stuff" to others with more talent. :( Yeah, just look at Lisa "godslayer" Smedman:rolleyes: . The novels wern't bad, but killing off gods so casually is just...wrong...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-03-08, 07:04 PM	To be fair, the god-killing was mandated by WotC, not decided by the author.
XHereticX 02-03-08, 07:21 PM	To be fair, the god-killing was mandated by WotC, not decided by the author. I know, but that dosen't ease the uneasiness I get from those actions (even though I was never a fan of the drow pantheon and the only drow god I like is Lolth).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-03-08, 07:24 PM	I know, but that dosen't ease the uneasiness I get from those actions (even though I was never a fan of the drow pantheon and the only drow god I like is Lolth). Agreed...
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 12:01 AM	She's probably afraid that if she shows any sort of 'like' for the character, some other spiteful author will come along and 'kill it'. -I don't think it's that. I think that she's keenly aware, and still believes, that the Forgotten Realms is a shared world, a sandbox where everyone has their toys, and can share freely. See the common thread? ;)
MarkusTay63 02-04-08, 01:50 AM	But some of the 'kids' don't play so nice.. :rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 01:58 AM	-They take other kids' toys, and smash the sand castles they they built.
MarkusTay63 02-04-08, 02:06 AM	Yup, there's always at least one mean kid in everyone's sandbox, who gets jealous over the other kids toys and tries to break 'em. :( Remember when FR was a happy sandbox?
JohnnieBurgess 02-04-08, 02:14 AM	That is why it is good to have a sandbox that only the good kids can play in. Yup, there's always at least one mean kid in everyone's sandbox, who gets jealous over the other kids toys and tries to break 'em. :( Remember when FR was a happy sandbox?
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 02:59 AM	Remember when FR was a happy sandbox? -A less chaotic sandbox, anyway.
MarkusTay63 02-04-08, 03:08 AM	Yup... every since that kid Cyric showed up, with his rotten older sister Shar... Her, and all her Emo-Goth shadowcr@p... :(
Charles Phipps 02-04-08, 05:50 AM	Yup... every since that kid Cyric showed up, with his rotten older sister Shar... Her, and all her Emo-Goth shadowcr@p... :( I like the Shadow Weave, when it's mysterious and outright EVIL. Everyone remember the Shadow King?
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 11:43 AM	Everyone remember the Shadow King? -Who had nothing to do with the Shadow Weave, until it was retconned in that he did. But, I digress. I found the Shadow Weave intriguing when I picked up the FRCS. Sibsequent lore/continuity problems caused by it turned me off from it.
Charles Phipps 02-04-08, 01:14 PM	-Who had nothing to do with the Shadow Weave, until it was retconned in that he did. But, I digress. I found the Shadow Weave intriguing when I picked up the FRCS. Sibsequent lore/continuity problems caused by it turned me off from it. Sorry, wrong Shadow King. I liked him too. I meant the NW2 version.
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 01:26 PM	I meant the NW2 version. -Another Shadow King? I haven't played that game yet, so... -So, that's 2 Shadow Kings, 1 Witch King, 1 Lich King...
Charles Phipps 02-04-08, 01:27 PM	-Another Shadow King? I haven't played that game yet, so... -So, that's 2 Shadow Kings, 1 Witch King, 1 Lich King... I confess, the Classic names are mostly used up.
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 01:30 PM	I confess, the Classic names are mostly used up. -Hmm...There's plenty of other cool names out there...The Dark King. The Umbral King- that one is good. The Master of Shadows. The Shadowmaster....
Priamon 02-04-08, 02:54 PM	-Hmm...There's plenty of other cool names out there...The Dark King. The Umbral King- that one is good. The Master of Shadows. The Shadowmaster.... Darklord Ravenloft owned them all in the face. That was a great place to campaign.....
Charles Phipps 02-04-08, 06:35 PM	How many times has the Shadowmaster been used?
MarkusTay63 02-06-08, 12:21 AM	The Night King? Darklords reminds me too much of LotR. I used to like Lord Foul, but I got sick of it when Donaldson wrote more after the first trilogy was over. How about Lord Twilight, or Blackheart? Too comic-booky? :confused:
Fabius Maximus 02-06-08, 08:09 AM	Isn't the vampire "ruler" of Westgate called The Night King?
Flicker 02-06-08, 08:20 AM	Probably after the 4E FR setting's been out for 4, maybe 5 years. Until then, it's just too early to make a decision! Nope cos we'll all be discussing 5th ed :confused: :confused:
Lord Karsus 02-06-08, 12:18 PM	Isn't the vampire "ruler" of Westgate called The Night King? -Yes, Orbach (sp?) the Night King, the Vampire clone of Manshoon.
MarkusTay63 02-06-08, 01:47 PM	Ugh... I'll try again... The Nightarch? The Umbralord? The Shadowczar? The Emperor of Darkness? I give up... all the good ones HAVE been taken. :(
Priamon 02-07-08, 01:01 AM	Shadowgrunt .... Hit the reverse. Peasnt of darkness. Umbralfodder.
MarkusTay63 02-07-08, 01:19 PM	Cormyrian Shadow-Farmer #2 w/pitchfork? ;) You know, the more I think about the title of this thread, the more I don't feel like doing anything more with 3e FR - maps, lore, articles, etc... Its all just a huge waste of time really; the designers have pretty much told us that whatever we come up with, it will all be gone in August. I just think my time is too valuable to waste on a setting that is now defunct. :bored: And if anyone is wondering about my latest change of mind, its because I found out a piece of information that is probably going to destroy my current project when the FRCG comes out. Sometimes I wish ignored areas would have just stayed 'ignored'. :(
Lord Karsus 02-07-08, 01:35 PM	Cornyrian Shadow-Farmer #2 w/pitchfork? ;) -Damn him...damn him.... You know, the more I think about the title of this thread, the more I don't feel like doing anything more with 3e FR - maps, lore, articles, etc... Its all just a huge waste of time really; the designers have pretty much told us that whatever we come up with, it will all be gone in August. I just think my time is too valuable to waste on a setting that is now defunct. :bored: -Are you going to be playing 4e? If not, then it's not a waste of time. And if anyone is wondering about my latest change of mind, its because I found out a piece of information that is probably going to destroy my current project when the FRCG comes out. -And, that is?
MarkusTay63 02-07-08, 02:06 PM	-Are you going to be playing 4e? If not, then it's not a waste of time.Thats what I was planning, ergo anything 3e would be a waste of time for me. However, I realize now that I don't really play, so much as follow the setting, so that would be ridiculous. Ergo, since no new canon lore will be produced for the FR I know and love, both 3e and 4e FR are clearly wastes of my time. If I start producing homebrew lore for Eberron, I know it will NEVER become obsolete - not that I'm planning to do that, but it does illustrate my point. -And, that is?Aside from the stuff that folks know I'm working on (all 27 projects :P ), I also have a sort-of 'secret' pet project that I've slowly been putting together. Awhile ago, I realized that the Taan (Hordelands) was really far too vaste and interesting to just lump into the K-T thread, but rather then start a whole 'nother project, I've just been updating all the entries from the original box on my own. I was hoping to have something cohesive in a few months, and use IT as a springboard into the updated K-T project some of us have been 'dabbling' with. A lot of the Ue thread fed into this, since so much of THAT research was pertinent to events in that happen in the Hordelands (especially regarding Imaskar and it's survivor states). Then I read this at CK - For what it's worth Murghôm enjoys a two page spread in the new FRCG. Beyond that I cannot say more. What this tells me is that Murghôm, a place that was largely ignored by EVERY previous addition, is now getting attention, which probably means that the whole of the Horde region is getting more attention, which will invalidate 90% of what I've been working on the last FOUR MONTHS. I give up. :( I choose an area I thought for sure would never get official attention, and I was wrong. sixty some-odd pages of research and notes I can just flush down the toilet. I wouldn't mind so much if I thought it was going to be done right, but I just know that no one is going to do the same amount of research I did - and I don't care who it is, because I can pick holes in official recent lore to the end of time if I wanted. So its going to get written up, with only a cursory glance at previous canon, and once again fall into that category of 4e non-consistency. I've spent the last year trying to knit Abeir-Toril's history into a cohesive whole, as many of you well know, including such far-flung places as Maztica and Zakhara, and even Osse! Now its all getting re-written, and even if its good, I'll have still just wasted my time. There's really no point in producing ANYTHING until after 4e comes out, and then for what? The main selling point of 4e is a complete LACK of lore, so basically, us loremasters have gone the way of the dinosaur. Its NOT about history, its about killing stuff and Phat Lewtz. :(
Alediran 02-07-08, 02:13 PM	Well, Mark, that's why I created the Realms Vault, so we can have a space that worked for the things we like. I would love to create more project boards for any project you hav,e since it give us much unique lore (it's very important for publicity). My idea is to have a big comunity to show WotC how wrong they are about the changes to the Realms.
Lord Karsus 02-07-08, 02:42 PM	Aside from the stuff that folks know I'm working on (all 27 projects :P ), I also have a sort-of 'secret' pet project that I've slowly been putting together. Awhile ago, I realized that the Taan (Hordelands) was really far too vaste and interesting to just lump into the K-T thread, but rather then start a whole 'nother project, I've just been updating all the entries from the original box on my own. I was hoping to have something cohesive in a few months, and use IT as a springboard into the updated K-T project some of us have been 'dabbling' with. A lot of the Ue thread fed into this, since so much of THAT research was pertinent to events in that happen in the Hordelands (especially regarding Imaskar and it's survivor states). Then I read this at CK - What this tells me is that Murghôm, a place that was largely ignored by EVERY previous addition, is now getting attention, which probably means that the whole of the Horde region is getting more attention, which will invalidate 90% of what I've been working on the last FOUR MONTHS. I give up. :( -I understand. However, as you know, I am heavily invested in Elves of Faerûn. As you know, I don't play D&D in the Forgotten Realms, either. Do you know how 4e is effecting me? In true New York fashion, :censored: 'em. I am not accepting 4e lore, and as such, it has absolutely no hold over me. Like an illusion, I am disbelieving it, and thus, it does not effect me. While, in the end, only you can make your final decision, just keep in mind that anything you do is likely to be: A) more detailed than the 'official stuff' B) better quality than the 'official stuff' C) better well-recieved by FR fans than the 'official stuff'
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-07-08, 03:00 PM	And if anyone is wondering about my latest change of mind, its because I found out a piece of information that is probably going to destroy my current project when the FRCG comes out. What would that be? EDIT: Nevermind!
Muradin 02-07-08, 03:13 PM	Please tell me where i can find this "Realms Vault". MT I think you should continue your work concerning the Realms because as LK said we the "old" fans of the FR will like it more than the new official stuff. One person is SURE to read that if you let him do:D
Alediran 02-07-08, 03:15 PM	The link is in my signature. www.forgottenrealmsvault.com The web's design is still being designed by a friend. Until I finish it I'm not going to promote the site that much.
Muradin 02-07-08, 03:17 PM	Thanks
Priamon 02-07-08, 10:44 PM	Cormyrian Shadow-Farmer #2 w/pitchfork? ;) You know, the more I think about the title of this thread, the more I don't feel like doing anything more with 3e FR - maps, lore, articles, etc... Its all just a huge waste of time really; the designers have pretty much told us that whatever we come up with, it will all be gone in August. I just think my time is too valuable to waste on a setting that is now defunct. :bored: :noway: I always thought the point of D&D was to waste time. :bigeyes: Really the point comes to a view of perspective. Are you bored with your current projects? If you are then I would stop and find something else to ammuse yourself. You shouldn't be doing work without some kind of gratification, either through monetary or self. But if you enjoy following the realms then you might as well keep doing it. You might even consider polishing it all up and then when they release the info on the area, compare it all and see how close you got, and who's is better. Then if yours owns theirs in the face, bundle it all up in a nice little package and send it to em with a dozen roses. Have the card say simply "LOL." If nothing else there is no telling wether the FR community will prefer yours or theirs. I wouldn't get mad that they're going to be paying attention to an area that you've been working on, because in the grand scheme of things... your resources are free, or close to it, and will probably be way better just due to the sheer amount of time and effort put into it by comparison. Your work is going to be appreciated. At the same time, thier work is going to be appreciated as well simply due to the fact that a lot of people don't know who or what you are and all they have access to is what WoTC produces. D&D is all about the individuals. If your enjoying it, don't let the fact that they are trying to produce a product that they can spread to more individuals daunt you from doing what you do best and enjoy. WoTC and their source books are like the Pirates code from Pirates of the Caribbean. *pirate accent* "Asides, they're more of guidelines than rules."
MarkusTay63 02-08-08, 02:38 AM	Well, I've 'calmed down' a bit from yesterday, so I suppose I'll just finish up what I've already started and then think twce before starting anything new within the Realms. And LK, I suppose I finally know how you feel with the Elven Netbook. ;)
Ryltar Swordsong 02-08-08, 04:35 AM	I am not accepting 4e lore, and as such, it has absolutely no hold over me. Like an illusion, I am disbelieving it, and thus, it does not effect me. While, in the end, only you can make your final decision, just keep in mind that anything you do is likely to be: A) more detailed than the 'official stuff' B) better quality than the 'official stuff' C) better well-recieved by FR fans than the 'official stuff' I agree.
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 12:40 AM	And LK, I suppose I finally know how you feel with the Elven Netbook. ;) -Ayup.
XHereticX 02-09-08, 10:59 AM	There's really no point in producing ANYTHING until after 4e comes out, and then for what? The main selling point of 4e is a complete LACK of lore, so basically, us loremasters have gone the way of the dinosaur. Its NOT about history, its about killing stuff and Phat Lewtz. :( That's not completly true, if you have read what the designers have been saying recently, 4e is going to have a far heavier focus upon lore and less so on the heavy statistic-packed styles of 3e. Now, whether the "lore" will meet our standards or not is up to question. It may signal a shift to the precision and detail we saw in 2e, or it may just end up as a strategy guide to help people get "phat lewt."
MarkusTay63 02-09-08, 12:03 PM	I do hope it will be lore-heavy, since I personally feel the game is more about the setting then the mechanics. I'm really looking forward to the FRCG, believe it or not, just because I have enough faith in Ed to 'save our world' from looking like somethimg else entirely. I'm still torn about the NPCs and Monsters getting simpler stats - it makes a lot of sense, and will get rid of all those humongous stat blocks that were eating away at our page counts. I suppose, as long as we have a way of customizing the 'bosses' still, I can see that as a positive. The down-side is that the MMs will be rather boring, with several pages of the same monster wearing different gear, using different weapons, or just being superior then the average version. However, if it means getting those terrible stat-blocks out of the fluff books, I can live with that.
XHereticX 02-09-08, 12:11 PM	I agree, it is all about the story. We're role-players here, not mathematicians (though some here are both), I just want to play through a good story without having to worry about an overabundance of calculations, and simplicity of stats is excellent and give you more time to worry about the story and not punching in numbers on a calculator and rolling dice. Hmm, I hope the MM's aren't just variations of the same monster, that would be awfully dull, though if we get good fluff it might be worth it.
MarkusTay63 02-09-08, 02:46 PM	If you've noticed, the last few MMs have had 'featured monsters', that were given several pages of development with variations. The designers have mentioned in non-4e columns before that this has been one of their design goals, to have one heavily featured race per book, with a 2-3 others featured similarly, but with lesser page counts. Then the rest of the book gets filled with 'one shots'. Since they have been doing this since they have secretly been planning 4e, I would assume that was one of those 4e things that have been creeping into the 3e rules (like the ToB: Book of Nine Swords). At first I hated this, because it means LESS monsters per book, but in the long run, it means nearly all of the stat blocks will be in the core books, and NOT in the setting books, which is an incredibly great thing, if they can pull that off. Thats why I'm willing to make sacrifices, if the overall product is better, and we get more of the lore we love so.
XHereticX 02-09-08, 03:53 PM	I totally agree, more Realmslore. If 4e can pull off the kind of 2e lore focus that the old products have, despite the shorter lengths of the books, it will all be worth it.