Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Charles Phipps 01-26-08, 04:27 AM	Some posters know my opinions, so I'll just be repeating them. Some may call it silly to host a funeral for a fictional character, but I feel like doing it and I hope someone will sticky this no matter how oddball a request it may be. Tyr is an old, old, friend. When people complained about Bane/Bhaal/Myrkul being killed, a lot of newer fans didn't get why they were upset. That was because they didn't understand The Dark Triad wasn't a bunch of characters that appeared only in the Boxed Set, the Moonshae Trilogy, and in the occasional Zhentish prayer. No, they had spent hours...days...months even in the homes of every gamer that had ever enjoyed their presence in a game. Much like Superman isn't just the comic books but every imagined adventure a child might have in game. So, I'm going to tell you about Tyr. Tyr is an old buddy of mine. You know Tyr in other dimensions. Tyr is Optimus Prime. He's Obi Wan Kenobi, not the Ewan McGreggor version, but the Alec Guiness version. If it were a hundred years earlier then I'd probably say he was Abraham Van Helsing (hell even if it were just when Peter Cushing were playing him---you know, before he blew up Alderaan). In short, Tyr is the Old Guy Whose Still Cool. Tyr isn't really "with it" like the other gods. We all know that Tyr is from the Norse Pantheon just like the Mulhorandi are from Egypt and Sune is blatantly Aphrodite (just don't mention to her that name). He's survived Ragnarok, somehow, and come to the planet Toril to start talking to us about Lawful Goodness. Already, there's some people starting to nod off in the back because it takes a lot to be an anti-hero without the anti. Yet, the Clergy and the Paladins of Tyr get respect at my table. Why is that? Because unlike all the self-righteous hypocrites and lecturers I've met in my real life, Tyr's faithful are Old. Tyr and his kind have walked the talk and been affected by the thousand thousand conflicts with the Dark Triad plus every other encounter they've had. Tyr lost his :censored: arm in the mouth of the Wolf and he did willingly, Ao unjustly blinded Tyr because the Overgod apparently thought so highly of him that he believed that he could have stopped the Godsfall by himself, and Tyr is still a badass. If we had to do a D20 Modern picture of Tyr, this is what he'd look like. http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c1/ian_fisher/snake.jpg I like Torm, he's a great god. Torm is Luke Skywalker. When you're fresh, idealistic, and energetic about the world then you worship Torm. Torm is the Young King Arthur whose ready and vigorous to fight the evils of Cyric the New God. The vigorous evils of the world need Torm and he's a good kid. But, to be honest, he's kind of a Punk. http://www.ugo.com/a/worst-videogame-sequels/images/5.jpg Torms got no thousand yard stare, he's got both arms, he's got his eyes. Torm is the guy saying "We can build a better tomorrow." Tyr is the guy saying "They will not cross this line and if I have to die to defend civilization, so be it. Megatron must be stopped." You can't replace Tyr with Torm. Torm can't handle the moroseness of the darkness and struggle that is the day to day grind of the Neverending Struggle for Truth, Justice, and the Faerun Way. Oh, he'll try and he'll do a good job but he's not made the Sacrifice or suffered the Loss that Tyr has. Mythology, surprisingly, has plenty of these. There's Odin and Thor. There's Zeus and Hercules. There's Osiris and Horus. Tyr has been a part of the Realms from the Beginning and for me, no current plot can change the fact that the Grizzled Old Soldier is still standing there to fight the big fight. Like Hal Jordan murdering the Green Lantern Core, I don't want Tyr to go out like a hero or punish himself for killing Helm. By Elminster's Beard, I want vindication for the Old Man. Cyric had discovered a form of Godly Mind Control, Helm had been cursed out of his mind to become a rampaging monster, or Tyr is locked up in Cyric's basement somewhere and the Dark Sun killed Helm. Because it's tarnishing the image of a character that was there for my characters for many hours of fun. To call him an "interloper" god is ridiculous because he's been there from the beginning. He's an elder part of the pantheon and every bit as much of a part of Faerun as Lathander Morninglord, Selune, or Shar. I could tell you guys about how Shar's former Chosen came to reluctantly worship the Lawgiver. I could talk about in the Time of Troubles, my player characters met a crippled old man with no eyes that spent all of his time wandering from village to village protecting the weak like Zatoichi. I could also tell you that the Paladin Lord of Waterdeep once explained why he followed Tyr instead of Torm "It takes a bigger man to build good than fight evil." But instead, I'm going to celebrate Tyr's life in a proper fashion and raise a real life pint to the fictional character. No matter what they say. "If they strike you down, you shall become more powerful than they can possibly imagine."
msatran 01-26-08, 05:02 AM	I shall raise my glass with thee, sir. Very few characters in my game have ever worshipped Tyr. But you're right. Maybe a couple of the new ones should start.
Uzzy 01-26-08, 06:18 AM	I too shall raise a glass to the life and works of noble Tyr. My next Paladin will be a follower of the lawgiver, just because of this eulogy. It's a very good way to look at the Lawgiver, and one I fully enjoyed. (If only the WoTC designers could see this and see what Tyr has to offer)
Storm_Silverhand 01-26-08, 08:15 AM	Heya, This may come as a surprise to most posters on this board, but I've always had a soft spot in my heart for Tyr... I first encountered him as part of the Norse Pantheon in the 1st Edition book Deities and Demigods. I liked the pantheon as a whole so much I imported it as a whole to my home brewed world (the story went that when Earth became predominantly Christian the pantheon went in search for a place to begin again). I have since reluctantly removed the pantheon from that world, and replaced it with a completely original one (needed to do it so I could write novels that made sense and wouldn't stand on the toes of any genuine Asatru)... But one of the major characters of that world (a PC to begin with, and later an NPC) was a paladin of Tyr - and while he is no longer my favorite character, I have good memories of playing him. My very first Forgotten Realms PC was also a Paladin of Tyr... But by that time I had begun to grow away from my youthful idealism, and found Tyr less and less a figure in my thoughts (and less and less a choice of deity for my characters)... While I'm far more upset by the death of Mystra, the corruption and possible destruction of Eilistraee, and the badly out of character Tymora in TGHotR, I am also disgruntled by the imminent departure of Tyr from the setting, and also by his mis-characterization in TGHotR. So to Tyr, I raise a mug of mead! Rest well, old friend.
Charles Phipps 01-26-08, 04:02 PM	Honestly, there's an interesting theme in the Forgotten Realms about the various "generations" of the gods. When I was an early DM, I always struggled with how to differentiate the various types of Paladins in the setting. What WAS the difference between a Paladin of Torm, a Paladin of Helm, and a Paladin of the Lawbringer? Ultimately, I found myself ending up working on dissecting the Triad's religion a lot more than I ever did most of the other faiths. This is rather noteworthy because, despite the fact I gave a eulogy for the Old Man, Tyr wasn't my 'best friend' in the Realms. It was an early established part of my games that the majority faith in the Heartlands was the worship of Lathander and Chauntaea while the Triad was more a Great North/Sword Coast sort of thing. That meant my player characters mostly were encountering Churchs of the Morninglord whenever they were needing healing as Dalelanders. Furthermore, as with many, Mystra played a predominant role in the campaigns due to the fact that my players had familiarity with her from the Time of Troubles. The fact that she's Elminster's God and he always showed up as the Wise old Mentor character that's Barking InsaneTM meant her influence was ever felt. Hell, due to the elf-philia I once had, I think that Corellon tended to show up more. Even Selune and Finder made an appearance 'on camera' post-Deification while Tyr only made that one scene where we met the blind man (and the players never realized that he was actually the Lawbringer). However, I realized something very important during the Trial of Cyric the Mad that I don't know if the Developers realized. It's something that may be controversial around here but it makes the decision to toss Tyr on his ass all the more perplexing to me. Specifically, it's the fact that Tyr is King of the Gods. Arguably, Ao holds that particular title but he seems to function more as the God of Gods. Tyr is the one that's conducting the Trial of Cyric and the one who seems to wield unquestioned authority in the matters of the Law over the loss of Cyric. Through his words, it's even possible to have Mystra imprisoned. Clearly, very few people seem to respect the Lawgiver amongst the Evil Gods but he was given a difference that added a sense of structure to the Faerun pantheon that I felt would be lacking otherwise. I regret the loss of Helm and the Loss of Mystra more or less blows my mind (and is the focus of my entire campaign-to possibly recover her). In Helm's case, I'm having Red Knight step up to save his portfolios. However, Mystra will have to be back in my campaign. All of these events definitely will HAPPEN in my 4E realms even if I reverse them in my campaign like everyone who brought back Bane well before he appeared in 3rd edition. However, I have no idea how I could possibly remove Tyr. He's the benevolent old man and you can't have Kiri Jonilith replace Paladine.
sfdragon 01-26-08, 04:39 PM	Tyr blows chunks- unknown cleric of bane
Charles Phipps 01-26-08, 04:45 PM	There's always a crasher. Fzoul: HA HA HA AH AH HA HA HA HA HAHA HHHHAHHAha....
Gray Richardson 01-27-08, 12:13 AM	So long old friend, may the mead flow sweet for you in the halls of Valhalla. May you greet the dawn anew each morning with fresh eyes and strong hands. The mantle of Justice has weighed heavily on you. May death lift your burden and let your spirit soar. You will not be forgotten. The skalds will tell your sagas, and the bards will sing your name. Centuries hence, young children will lie in their beds listening to grand stories of Grimjaws, the Just God, the Law Bringer, the Maimed One. They will hear of the Procession of Justice and the Chaining of Kezef. And the children will weep at your passing from the earth. As we weep now. And so I raise a glass to thee, And shed a tear as well, For Tyr has passed beyond this world, May Cyric burn in Hell. :pint:
Kenzuki 01-27-08, 07:12 AM	Not much I can say here. I'm sorry you're losing your favorite god though. I will say this. I bet Hoar is laughing at the poetic justice involved in the unjust actions of the God of Justice :P
Charles Phipps 01-27-08, 07:31 AM	Not much I can say here. I'm sorry you're losing your favorite god though. I will say this. I bet Hoar is laughing at the poetic justice involved in the unjust actions of the God of Justice :P Helm murdered Mystra II and the Earthmother. :P Tyr was just dishing out some long delayed payback for Helm's hatred of the ladies. ;-)
Kenzuki 01-27-08, 07:34 AM	Helm murdered Mystra II and the Earthmother. :P Tyr was just dishing out some long delayed payback for Helm's hatred of the ladies. ;-) Helm was just obeying Lord Ao. Tyr was just being an *******.
Charles Phipps 01-27-08, 07:43 AM	Helm was just obeying Lord Ao. Tyr was just being an *******. Obeying Lord Ao doesn't excuse Helm from being a :censored: Let's face it, Helm should have turned down the challenge. The guy is a blind and one armed Swordmaster, there's no possible way to beat him if Samurai Epics have taught me anything!
Kenzuki 01-27-08, 07:49 AM	Obeying Lord Ao doesn't excuse Helm from being a :censored: Let's face it, Helm should have turned down the challenge. The guy is a blind and one armed Swordmaster, there's no possible way to beat him if Samurai Epics have taught me anything! He couldn't turn it down it was within his portfolio. Besides, he didn't even have a trial. Tyr just knew Helm couldn't say no and killed him. Oh and obeying Lord Ao DOES excuse him for doing his duty. Remember what happened to Tyr when he backtalked? That's right Ao *****slapped his eyes out.
Charles Phipps 01-27-08, 01:57 PM	Whatever. :p Tyr is the God of Justice but that doesn't mean he's necessarilly the god of nice either. All that's needed from a trial for the Justicars to perform is for them to take one look at the situation before saying. "Guilty." I can imagine Tyrites post the Cataclysm (as I jokingly refer to the Spell-Plague) in the most lawless areas. http://www.evolvedgames.com/images/cover-dreddA.jpg
MarkusTay63 01-27-08, 02:08 PM	Tyr isn't dead son, he just went home... http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/Nordic_Tyr.png The one, TRUE Tyr. ;)
Charles Phipps 01-27-08, 02:25 PM	Tyr isn't dead son, he just went home... http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/Nordic_Tyr.png The one, TRUE Tyr. ;) When we're dealing with the Real-World Deities aligned in a huge multi-layered pantheon with deities of every other real world cultural stripe plus Howard's Hyborea, I tend to be somewhat more forgiving of the differences from real world mythology. Any D&D thor is more likely this than anything from Norway. http://www.hijinxcomics.com/images/ultimate_thor.jpg (or as I call him, Tempus)
Kenzuki 01-27-08, 03:46 PM	Last time I checked a good person doesn't just look at a situation and go "Guilty" then kill that person. He brings them to trial. That's what Justice is. What Tyr did to Helm was in no way Justice. Helm killing Mystra wasn't anything so personal or wrong. Helm was protecting the Celestial Stairway as per Lord Ao's instruction. Helm gave Mystra ample warning to back off, she got herself killed by acting like the overconfident smartass that she was. Helm was only doing what Tyr told him to do in the first place, then he kills the guy on suspection (not proof) that Helm had stolen Tymora from him. Oh but he's the "Just God" though right? "It's Just because I say so! Might makes right!" - Tyr "I knew you'de come around one day buddy." - Bane
Charles Phipps 01-27-08, 03:55 PM	Last time I checked a good person doesn't just look at a situation and go "Guilty" then kill that person. This is D&D, dude. Clearly, you have not played in my sessions. *Tyrite surveys hordes of rampaging Orcs* "Guilty." *slash* "Guilty" *slash* He brings them to trial. You may have missed that the conflict between Helm and Tyr WAS a Trial. It was a Trial by Combat that both gods would have respected as the resolution of their conflict as to who is in the right. Clearly, both Helm and Tyr were restricted by their portfolios (though Helm might have been influenced by Cyric since he's only an Intermediate God verging on Lesser), ultimately they had to bow to who was the one who was in the Just Cause. Tyr won the conflict and that means in a Trial by Combat, The Right was with him. That's what Justice is. What Tyr did to Helm was in no way Justice. Helm killing Mystra wasn't anything so personal or wrong. Helm was protecting the Celestial Stairway as per Lord Ao's instruction. Helm gave Mystra ample warning to back off, she got herself killed by acting like the overconfident smartass that she was. Tyr can't be Unjust. It's like Helm failing in his duty. Cyric not being a barking mad :censored: Bane taking up Flower Gardening or Sune doing anything that inhibits love. These gods are the embodiments of their concepts and are defined by them. Midnight was the only one able to really resist it. As for Helm, he could have stopped Mystra a thousand different ways other than killing her. Helm was only doing what Tyr told him to do in the first place, then he kills the guy on suspection (not proof) that Helm had stolen Tymora from him. Oh but he's the "Just God" though right? Why the Hell is Helm getting everyone's backing? Helm repeatedly has shown himself to be capable of Cyric-stupidity levels of being fooled, tricked, or outright maliciousness. Tyr has never shown himself to be anything less than A perfect. If Tyr killed him, then Helm was guilty as Hell. Now, it might be proven otherwise, but I don't see any reason to believe Helm was in the right. You could argue that Helm's punishment was too severe for the crime but the fact was that he did a lot more deserving of death than this. "It's Just because I say so! Might makes right!" - Tyr Right makes Might. :)
MarkusTay63 01-27-08, 04:22 PM	Well, if we're using Marvel comics pics to for our gods, then this would be Blind Justice - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d2/Daredevil100.jpg/414px-Daredevil100.jpg and just for completeness, this is Marvel's Tyr - http://www.marvel.com/universe3zx/images/thumb/7/76/Tyr_%28New%29.jpg/440px-Tyr_%28New%29.jpg And DC's version is just plain weird - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fd/TyrDCComics.jpg :confused:
Charles Phipps 01-27-08, 04:41 PM	Tyr and his Mohawk days.... Plus, Saturn Girl's "Hussy" costume. Good for the two of them!
MarkusTay63 01-27-08, 04:45 PM	Hmmm... so Saturn met Tyr? Would that count as the first cross-pantheonic interaction, then? And I've never seen Saturn looking better. :P
Charles Phipps 01-27-08, 04:49 PM	Personally, I always felt that people sometimes take the Realms a little too seriously. One of the biggest complaints I've seen was the fact that people thought it inappropriate to have RL gods inside the Forgotten Realms while I was of the mind. "Guys, we've got a blatant analogue for monotheistic conceptions of God and the Devil in the Nine Hells. I think we should remember this is a comic book fantasy world. If Sandman can do it, then so can we." Of course, the Realms will always be DC to me rather than Devil's Due. http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f350/Willowhugger/Dungeons%20and%20Dragons/ADD27-PG04.jpg But yes, basically, I think it's important to keep the heroes of the Gods Unsullied while not making them perfect (the best way to handle this is give every clergy corrupt members like Eberron---foregoing the whole "and your deity strips you of your righteous power" that really limits the kinds of stories that can be told") I've always loved the immature, bickering, and head butting gods of the Realms rather than the glorious gods of the Dragonlance world that are as wise as they are powerful. However, I think its important not to dilute their concept either. The Realms gods are CHARACTERS as much as personifications and if you have Tyr act against his portfolio you're betraying both. It's like Spiderman making a deal with the Devil, giving up on Mary Jane, or revealing his secret identity. *pause* Huh. Wait a second...but yes, I still love Spiderman. I also still love Iron Man because I think the real Tony Stark is locked up in a basement somewhere. Probably with Tyr and the non-insane Cyric that was supposed to come after the Trial of Cyric the Mad.
Kenzuki 01-27-08, 06:50 PM	So you're saying that Tyr was Just because he won a duel against a WEAKER foe? Pardon me while I laugh my ass off.:rolleyes:
GreenKnight 01-27-08, 06:51 PM	I wasn't gonna post any arguments in this thread, but since it's become the "Let's **** on Helm" thread... (though Helm might have been influenced by Cyric since he's only an Intermediate God verging on Lesser), ultimately they had to bow to who was the one who was in the Just Cause. That makes no sense with what we know of the situation. It wasn't Helm who misread the situation. It was Tyr. If anyone was tricked, it was Tyr. Tyr won the conflict and that means in a Trial by Combat, The Right was with him. All the Trial By Combat proved was that Tyr is a Greater God, Helm's an Intermediate God, and Greater Gods are more powerful then Intermediate Gods. It doesn't make Tyr right. Here's another example. Let's say Siamorphe witnessed Bane stealing the Tablets of Fate. Tyr decides to settle things with Trial By Combat between Bane and Siamorphe. Bane easily slaughters Siamorphe, because he's a Greater God, and she's a Demigod. So would that mean that Bane is in the right? The only thing Trial By Combat ever proves is who's the stronger, not who's in the right. Tyr can't be Unjust. Yes he can. Just as Kelemvor, Mystra, and Cyric were failing in their duties for various reasons, so too can Tyr fail in his duties. In this case, he let jealousy get in the way of his duties as God of Justice. Why the Hell is Helm getting everyone's backing? Helm repeatedly has shown himself to be capable of Cyric-stupidity levels of being fooled, tricked, or outright maliciousness. Tyr has never shown himself to be anything less than A perfect. Ao would disagree with that, as he blinded the guy. And Mystra pulled the wool over him during Cyric's trial. And Tyr, along with pretty much every other god, was failing in their duties prior to the Time of Troubles. Every other god save for Helm, that is. If Tyr killed him, then Helm was guilty as Hell. There is zero evidence whatsoever to indicate that Helm was guilty in the slightest. And had Tyr given Helm an actual trial, rather then instigating that farcical Trial by Combat which doesn't prove anything, then he'd know that. Now, it might be proven otherwise, but I don't see any reason to believe Helm was in the right. 'A Grand History of the Realms' states that "strange and fateful misunderstandings lead to the accusation that Helm has stolen Tyrmora's heart". So clearly, he wasn't at all guilty, as the book states that the accusations arose from misunderstandings. You could argue that Helm's punishment was too severe for the crime but the fact was that he did a lot more deserving of death than this. Did Tyr put him on Trial for Mystra's death after the Time of Troubles? No. Then clearly Helm wasn't guilty of anything. He wasn't killed for killing Mystra, though. He was killed for allegedly stealing Tymora's heart. That's an offense punishable by death, now?
Kenzuki 01-27-08, 07:03 PM	Well spoken Greenknight!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-27-08, 07:50 PM	Indeed. Feeling sad for Tyr is one thing, but we can do without the ****ing on Helm side of it. I don't have too much to say at the moment, other than this: while Cyric was suspected of being involving in the Tyr/Helm debacle, that is not yet a proven fact.
Charles Phipps 01-27-08, 07:55 PM	FYI- I'm a fan of Helm. He's the Watcher and I've had at least a couple of Paladins of him in our games. Furthermore, we just finished a huge game where we had a funeral for Helm in it. If someone wants me to write a eulogy for Helm, I'd be happy to. However, I'm trying to make sense of a plot that's been widdled down to a single paragraph that doesn't deface the characters of one of my two favorite gods (the other being Mystra). Helm is a great deity but he has a history of being ambitious, ruthless, and easily tricked in the Realms (which really makes no sense). I wasn't gonna post any arguments in this thread, but since it's become the "Let's **** on Helm" thread... It's a simple statement that I'm not allowing Tyr's long and faithful service to the Realms be sullied because a bunch of guys want to say he's this evil and soiled character because he killed Helm. I would prefer if he's not the party responsible for killing Helm (and that Helm were alive) but the fact is that anyone who thinks Tyr is "ruined" because of killing the Realm's favorite Bad Boy is just silly. That makes no sense with what we know of the situation. It wasn't Helm who misread the situation. It was Tyr. If anyone was tricked, it was Tyr. Says who? The Guide to the Realms doesn't say anything about that. It's very ambiguous to what happened. Only that some mistakes were made and they lead to a duel. All the Trial By Combat proved was that Tyr is a Greater God, Helm's an Intermediate God, and Greater Gods are more powerful then Intermediate Gods. It doesn't make Tyr right. Here's another example. Let's say Siamorphe witnessed Bane stealing the Tablets of Fate. Tyr decides to settle things with Trial By Combat between Bane and Siamorphe. Bane easily slaughters Siamorphe, because he's a Greater God, and she's a Demigod. So would that mean that Bane is in the right? The only thing Trial By Combat ever proves is who's the stronger, not who's in the right. Trial by Combat in the Realms is another matter entirely. Especially, when it's between two gods who represent opposing portfolios. As we know, the strength of a god is almost irrelevant in battles between them as Gilgeam and Tiamat/Moander-Finder/Mystra-Cyric etc all prove. If it was settled by Trial by Combat then Tyr would have lost if he was unjust. Yes he can. Just as Kelemvor, Mystra, and Cyric were failing in their duties for various reasons, so too can Tyr fail in his duties. In this case, he let jealousy get in the way of his duties as God of Justice. :uh-huh: :bored: So, Tyr the ancient God of Justice in the Realms gets JEALOUS of Helm courting TYMORA that's a loveless and political marriage in a society where adultery is viewed as a minor activity (not the least which being that they weren't even married)? That makes no absolute sense. There's more to thise than the simple hurt feelings of the God of Justice. I have more faith in the writers than this. Ao would disagree with that, as he blinded the guy. And Mystra pulled the wool over him during Cyric's trial. And Tyr, along with pretty much every other god, was failing in their duties prior to the Time of Troubles. Every other god save for Helm, that is. Helm may have suceeded in his duties but that hardly means he's the better man. Cyric is widely successful in his duties but that doesn't mean he's not an abyssmal example of a human being/divinity. Ao is a arbiter of Balance across the Cosmos, not a moral figure. There is zero evidence whatsoever to indicate that Helm was guilty in the slightest. And had Tyr given Helm an actual trial, rather then instigating that farcical Trial by Combat which doesn't prove anything, then he'd know that. He's the God of Justice. The man is practically omniscient to begin with and his Portfolio powers allow him to know the truth anyway. Not to mention possessing his Godlike Clerical Powers that would allow the truth to be easily divined anyway. 'A Grand History of the Realms' states that "strange and fateful misunderstandings lead to the accusation that Helm has stolen Tyrmora's heart". So clearly, he wasn't at all guilty, as the book states that the accusations arose from misunderstandings. It implies that Helm might be innocent, that's possibly indeed and its certainly the acts of Cyric at work. Nevertheless, that doesn't necessarilly mean that he IS innocent or that Tyr was acting from unjust evidence. If there was a frame-up job by Cyric than it would have to be a damn good one to get past all the ridiculous levels of intellect and cross-examination Tyr has avaialble in an instant. Tyr is not exactly a hot-blooded god, not even in the Norse Pantheon. 'Did Tyr put him on Trial for Mystra's death after the Time of Troubles? No. Then clearly Helm wasn't guilty of anything. He wasn't killed for killing Mystra, though. He was killed for allegedly stealing Tymora's heart. That's an offense punishable by death, now? Oh, I see. So, Tyr can be faulty in his duties when it comes to persecuting Helm but if he eres on the side of forgiveness and mercy then he's clearly in the wrong. I'm sorry, but I don't really buy that. A perfect arbitrator of the Law would be Lawful Neutral, not Lawful Good. That's why Helm is perfect at his portfolio while Tyr is more inclined to Goodness over Law.
Kenzuki 01-27-08, 08:03 PM	I disagree with the notion that Tyr was in the right because he killed Helm. He was just stronger. I also disagree with the notion that Tyr is this shining figure who can never make mistakes. I also disagree that ANY of the gods are perfect and cannot make mistakes. These are gods akin to the Norse and Greek Gods who could make mistakes and be killed. They aren't gods like Allah and Jehovah who are supposed to be omnipotent, omniscient, and perfect in everyway possible. Just my two cents.
Alediran 01-27-08, 08:04 PM	A glass of Elverquist for you.
Charles Phipps 01-27-08, 08:08 PM	I disagree with the notion that Tyr was in the right because he killed Helm. He was just stronger. I also disagree with the notion that Tyr is this shining figure who can never make mistakes. I also disagree that ANY of the gods are perfect and cannot make mistakes. These are gods akin to the Norse and Greek Gods who could make mistakes and be killed. They aren't gods like Allah and Jehovah who are supposed to be omnipotent, omniscient, and perfect in everyway possible. Just my two cents. 1. I don't think that we should reduce Helm's last stand like that. I think Helm is a deity not to be underestimated and any battle that he perishes in will not be lost solely because he's a weaker foe. If Helm fought Cyric, I tend to think Helm would win because he wants it more. 2. No, I don't think Tyr can't make mistakes. Tyr was a god and a brilliant one but he can be deceived or beaten. However, Tyr will never make stupid mistakes. It's why I hate "Cyric the Monkey Boy" treatments because Cyric is still a Greater God and should be treated like one. Tyr is a wise, stoic, and noble figure. Any mistakes he'll make will be ones that incorporate these aspects of his character. Just like I won't make the mistake of ramming my head into a nail. I'm smarter than that and Tyr is as well. 3. No, but Tyr is the analogue for "The Just God who is the Bringer of Law and Peace to the world" along with Lathander. They represent the idealized values of Monotheistic enlightened goodness with a funny pagan bent but it's still their role to be THE Good Gods.
GreenKnight 01-27-08, 10:47 PM	Says who? The Guide to the Realms doesn't say anything about that. It's very ambiguous to what happened. Only that some mistakes were made and they lead to a duel. It makes no logical sense to assume that Cyric tricked Helm. How could that possibly work? Cyric tricks Helm into thinking that Tyr thinks that Helm stole Tymora's heart, so Helm tells Tyr that what he thinks about him stealing Tymora's heart isn't true, and when Tyr hears this, he starts to think that Helm stole Tymora's heart, thus tricking Tyr into thinking that Helm stole Tymora's heart, thus causing him to challenge Helm to a duel? The idea that Helm was the one that was tricked in order to produce this sequence of events doesn't make a shred of sense. Trial by Combat in the Realms is another matter entirely. Especially, when it's between two gods who represent opposing portfolios. As we know, the strength of a god is almost irrelevant in battles between them as Gilgeam and Tiamat/Moander-Finder/Mystra-Cyric etc all prove. Gilgeam and Tiamat fought during the Time of Troubles, when they were fairly equal as avatars. Mystra was killed by a concerted effort by Cyric and Shar. Either way, there is no shred of proof on your part that "the strength of a god is almost irrelevant in battles between them". You may as well take a fight between a Level 20 Fighter and a Level 5 Fighter and say that the difference in levels is almost irrelevant. That statement makes no sense, because the difference in power is very much relevant, and it absolutely has a bearing on determining who wins the fight. If it was settled by Trial by Combat then Tyr would have lost if he was unjust. Can you point to anything at all to back up that assertion? So, Tyr the ancient God of Justice in the Realms gets JEALOUS of Helm courting TYMORA that's a loveless and political marriage in a society where adultery is viewed as a minor activity (not the least which being that they weren't even married)? That makes no absolute sense. There's more to thise than the simple hurt feelings of the God of Justice. The one and only reason given for Tyr challenging Helm is the accusation that Helm has stolen Tymora's heart. If you don't like it, then that's your perogative, but that's the reason for the whole thing. There is no other explanation given as to why there was a fight. He's the God of Justice. The man is practically omniscient to begin with and his Portfolio powers allow him to know the truth anyway. Not to mention possessing his Godlike Clerical Powers that would allow the truth to be easily divined anyway. To bad he didn't use them. He let his emotions rule him in the situation, and he consulted none of that. He allowed Helm no defense other then whatever weapons he had handy. As it says in 'A Grand History of the Realms', "and Tyr slays Helm before the deities come to their senses". Tyr was in a rage, so whatever faculties he possessed, he probably didn't bother to check them. It implies that Helm might be innocent, that's possibly indeed and its certainly the acts of Cyric at work. Nevertheless, that doesn't necessarilly mean that he IS innocent or that Tyr was acting from unjust evidence. If there was a frame-up job by Cyric than it would have to be a damn good one to get past all the ridiculous levels of intellect and cross-examination Tyr has avaialble in an instant. But once again, Tyr did none of that. He didn't examine the evidence. He didn't question witnesses. He did nothing. He simply levelled his accusation at Helm that he had stolen Tymora's heart, challenged him to a duel, and killed him. Tyr is not exactly a hot-blooded god, not even in the Norse Pantheon. "and Tyr slays Helm before the gods come to their senses". Oh, I see. So, Tyr can be faulty in his duties when it comes to persecuting Helm but if he eres on the side of forgiveness and mercy then he's clearly in the wrong. I'm sorry, but I don't really buy that. Faultiness in your duties isn't a big deal until someone dies. Pretty hard to correct mistakes after that. Look, if you want to argue that Tyr got the shaft in a lousy storyline, then that's a valid argument, and I'm with you 100%. But to argue that according to the storyline, it's all Helms fault, and he got what he deserved? That just doesn't fly.
Kenzuki 01-27-08, 11:07 PM	I think Hoar should be proud of himself. The God of Justice killing Helm in a very unjust manner must be the ultimate irony.
Charles Phipps 01-27-08, 11:14 PM	It makes no logical sense to assume that Cyric tricked Helm. How could that possibly work? Cyric tricks Helm into thinking that Tyr thinks that Helm stole Tymora's heart, so Helm tells Tyr that what he thinks about him stealing Tymora's heart isn't true, and when Tyr hears this, he starts to think that Helm stole Tymora's heart, thus tricking Tyr into thinking that Helm stole Tymora's heart, thus causing him to challenge Helm to a duel? The idea that Helm was the one that was tricked in order to produce this sequence of events doesn't make a shred of sense. There's dozens of way for Cyric to trick Helm that would incite Tyr to do so. 1. Cyric could assume the form of Tyr in order to convince Helm to privately woo Tymora behind his back so he can get out of the marriage. 2. Cyric could convince Helm that Tymora would be a bane to the House of the Triad, so he will try and convince he not to go through the marriage. 3. Cyric could do the Tristan and Isolde thing by giving a love potion to Helm and Tymora. 4. Cyric could have appeared as Tymora and seduced Helm (which would be awkward but cool) 5. Cyric could play the part of Iago and convince Helm to let True Love PrevailTM with him and Tymora while making him think Tyr would be fine with it. 6. Cyric could convince Helm that Tyr is making a justification solely to steal his worshipers and encourage him to accept only a fight to the death while making him believe that he can defeat Tyr in single combat. 7. Cyric could convince Helm that he's fighting an avatar of Bane so that their otherwise friendly duel becomes a brutal contest of death by manipulating the god's senses. 8. Helm is incised by Cyric to a mad rage over the false accusations and insists it be a duel to the death. 9. Helm is blinded against his wounds by Cyric so that he doesn't realize that he's dying as he battles on while Tyr must continue to defend himself. 10. Cyric could poison Helm's wounds (Or Tyr's blade) by assuming the guise of Ilmater so that the God of Guardians dies from an otherwise innocuous wound by Tyr. 11. Cyric replaces Tyr's blade with his own avatar so that Helm is killed in a glancing blow. 12. Helm has his hearing altered so that the two gods who come to have a reasonable discussion only hear increasingly violent and brutal threats. I'm not saying that any of these happened but I think it's possible that any of these COULD have happened is all I'm saying. This story can still remain canon without Tyr being villified by the storyline. There's not a shred of evidence to any of the above other than "Cyric is the villain here" which I think should be remembered. Gilgeam and Tiamat fought during the Time of Troubles, when they were fairly equal as avatars. Mystra was killed by a concerted effort by Cyric and Shar. Either way, there is no shred of proof on your part that "the strength of a god is almost irrelevant in battles between them". You may as well take a fight between a Level 20 Fighter and a Level 5 Fighter and say that the difference in levels is almost irrelevant. That's a ridiculous statement, because the difference in power is very much relevant, as it determines who wins the fight. I concede, that was a silly thing of me to say. I just like the idea of Trial By Combat being more than merely contests of brute force. Can you point to anything at all to back up that assertion? No, just romanticizing Justice. The one and only reason given for Tyr challenging Helm is the accusation that Helm has stolen Tymora's heart. If you don't like it, then that's your perogative, but that's the reason for the whole thing. There is no other explanation given as to why there was a fight. We know Cyric influenced the events as well, so it's possible one or more of the subjects were not in their right mind as well. To bad he didn't use them. He let his emotions rule him in the situation, and he consulted none of that. He allowed Helm no defense other then whatever weapons he had handy. As it says in 'A Grand History of the Realms', "and Tyr slays Helm before the deities come to their senses". Tyr was in a rage, so whatever faculties he possessed, he probably didn't bother to check them. It says none of that. First, some of those powers are automatic. Two, there's no reason to think he DIDN'T use them and they weren't somehow fooled. But once again, Tyr did none of that. He didn't examine the evidence. He didn't question witnesses. He did nothing. He simply levelled his accusation at Helm that he had stolen Tymora's heart, challenged him to a duel, and killed him. You're assuming this happened automatically. If this is ever made into a book then it could be 200+ pages inbetween the accusation and duel. "and Tyr slays Helm before the gods come to their senses". Which could mean both were under a Spell or merely acting out their portfolios. Faultiness in your duties isn't a big deal until someone dies. Pretty hard to correct mistakes after that. Like Death is ever a concern in the Realms. I think Hoar should be proud of himself. The God of Justice killing Helm in a very unjust manner must be the ultimate irony. Uhhh, Hoar and Tyr are close friends.
GreenKnight 01-27-08, 11:51 PM	Don't really feel like turning this into a fisking debate, so I went ahead and deleted this post. Let me just say, though, that if I were you, I'd be PRAYING that someone had put the whammy on Tyr, as that absolves him of all responsibility. The absolute best thing for Tyr would be to find out he was possessed by the Parallax entity or something similar.
Charles Phipps 01-28-08, 12:10 AM	Out of respect to GreenKnight who PMed me and informed me he's not terribly enjoying this (while I was), I'll just wrap it up on my end. Overall, he's successfully pointed out that there's a lot of evidence against dear Tyr in this particular trial. Also, I'm being unreasonably harsh in the fact that I want Helm to be partially blamed for this particular issue. Ultimately, it was clear the Developers were going for something like Arthur and Sir Lancelot having the Knights of the Round Table broken or Tristan and Isolde's fouled marriage (or Othello as I'd already indicated). Personally, I do hope that I've indicated that there might have been quite a few mitigating circumstances. Green Knight pointed out that it might well have been Tyr enspelled by Cyric or otherwise out of his mind. I do hope, however, that answer that realistically fits Tyr's behavior and portfolio will make the issue more serious than merely a case of love letters, that the duel was not meant to be to the death, or that Cyric had really put the wool over both or one of their eyes. Frankly, I refuse to condemn Tyr the Justice Bringer until all the facts are within. Still, I hope I pointed out that the story could have happened a lot of ways. Also, my attempt to point out Helm's past deeds of killing goddesses was disingenous to the deity and his fans. Thanks for the discussion. Edit: Ultimately, I'm debating whether this might be more Tyr-like to expand this thread to include eulogies for all the gods that we know are going to die in the transition to 4E. So far, the body count includes... Tyr Mystra Savras Helm And because it's a lead-up, it's perfectly appropriate to also mourn Khelben the Blackstaff (Chosen kinda being like gods), Kiaransalee, Vhaeraun, and any other gods that you think might not make it towards 4E's release. The only requirement being a eulogy. Honestly, me eulogizing Helm would be the height of hypocrisy while I think there's others who mourn Mystra far more than me.
Storm_Silverhand 01-28-08, 06:21 AM	Heya, So, Tyr the ancient God of Justice in the Realms gets JEALOUS of Helm courting TYMORA that's a loveless and political marriage in a society where adultery is viewed as a minor activity (not the least which being that they weren't even married)? That makes no absolute sense. There's more to thise than the simple hurt feelings of the God of Justice. Yes, people keep forgetting a very important plot point... And that is, it was a LOVELESS POLITICAL MARRIAGE 1) Sune would never have arranged it in the first place. 2) Tyr had NOTHING to be jealous of. If the marriage was really to balance the scales between Brightwater and the House of the Triad, then Tymora going to the House of the Triad with any of the male deities there would have just as easily done it (and so would Tymora going of her own volition without marriage to any of the deities there). And that's before taking into account that the Realms aren't Earth, and ADULTERY IS NOT PUNISHABLE BY DEATH there!! If it were true that Helm stole Tymora's heart from Tyr, Tyr realistically would have walked away - especially since they weren't actually married at the time (he was still courting her!)... And as I just mentioned, the balance still would have been struck. 3) Tymora would never have agreed to it in the first place, and would not have stood for what happened afterwards. I hate and loathe that she was treated as less than a person by this entire story... I have more faith in the writers than this. If anything killed my faith in the writers - it was this plot.
Kenzuki 01-28-08, 09:45 AM	Heya, Yes, people keep forgetting a very important plot point... And that is, it was a LOVELESS POLITICAL MARRIAGE 1) Sune would never have arranged it in the first place. 2) Tyr had NOTHING to be jealous of. If the marriage was really to balance the scales between Brightwater and the House of the Triad, then Tymora going to the House of the Triad with any of the male deities there would have just as easily done it (and so would Tymora going of her own volition without marriage to any of the deities there). And that's before taking into account that the Realms aren't Earth, and ADULTERY IS NOT PUNISHABLE BY DEATH there!! If it were true that Helm stole Tymora's heart from Tyr, Tyr realistically would have walked away - especially since they weren't actually married at the time (he was still courting her!)... And as I just mentioned, the balance still would have been struck. 3) Tymora would never have agreed to it in the first place, and would not have stood for what happened afterwards. I hate and loathe that she was treated as less than a person by this entire story... If anything killed my faith in the writers - it was this plot. But it DID happen! Sune DID arrange it! Tyr DID get jealous or something! Tymora DID do it! Yeah it sucks, and you can disagree with it or ignor it all you want. But it won't erase the fact that it DID infact happen in the canon. So we can discuss it all we want.:)
Charles Phipps 01-28-08, 12:37 PM	But it DID happen! Sune DID arrange it! Tyr DID get jealous or something! Tymora DID do it! Yeah it sucks, and you can disagree with it or ignor it all you want. But it won't erase the fact that it DID infact happen in the canon. So we can discuss it all we want.:) Yes but there might be more to the story than just what the Guide to the Realms says.
Reneshat 01-29-08, 01:17 AM	Yes but there might be more to the story than just what the Guide to the Realms says. Or the authors might just be awful and stupid. I don't know about you, but the section I read left me with an undeniable conclusion. I'm not telling you which conclusion that was, but....
Charles Phipps 01-29-08, 01:39 AM	Heya, Yes, people keep forgetting a very important plot point... And that is, it was a 1. I think it needs to be questioned whether or not Sune actually believed that love would develop between these individuals. Sune doesn't really strike me as the "love can develop over time" type of person but stranger things have certainly happened. 2. I totally agree here. Frankly, its difficult to really imagine Tyr taking anything but stoically. The guy is, almost by definition, a cold fish about practically anything. He's the God of Good Judgement, the guy makes informed rational decisions about what he has for lunch. Also, the loss of Siamorphe doesn't really strike me as a strategic loss of inestimable value. Wouldn't be more interested in a political marriage with Torm and Red Knight? That seems to have much more advantage than alliance with Brightwater. (wait; since when do the gods get married anyway? Isn't Corellon the only married God in the whole of Faerun?!) 3. Tymora is certainly an odd choice for the matter. Tomboyish girls with Freckles isn't exactly the kind of military and noble asset you'd expect in the House of the Triad. Not to sound bizarre or anything but wouldn't Llirra be a much more likely candidate for this (unless her tastes are completely towards women instead of men)? If anything killed my faith in the writers - it was this plot. I'm just horrified at the blow that Mount Celestia took. Ilmater, Helm, and Siamorphe? Also, The House of the Triad doesn't really strike me as a great place for a Goddess of Luck. Edit: Personally, I think it's bizarre that I'm probably going to miss Tyr most because I did such off the wall and bizarre things with the guy. It's entirely not canon but one of the things Michael (My DM) did in order to make Wa and Shou-Lung was essentially have Japanese and Chinese versions of the Faerun Pantheon. They weren't always accurate (we got ourselves a Moon Goddess [Selune] and Sun God [Lathander] in Wa for example) but it was always fun. Where did Tyr fit into this? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/13/Raiden311.png/250px-Raiden311.png Yes, Tyr was the Christopher Lambert Raiden (no relation to the real life mythology one). He traveled around with a silver metal hand and often wore a blindfold (plus he was frequently accompanied by his bright, enthusiastic, and slightly ridiculous young samurai companion [Torm]) but he was a fun Easternization of the character. It lead to a hilarious moment where the two dueling Swordmasters in the party realized they were both paladins of the same God. What does this have to do with the canon Tyr? It was the fact that all of these fun little sidestories by players and their groups are going to be derailed due to the fact that he's going to be leaving. Mystra's loss and Helm's loss will result in similar major things. Seriously, the irony is the Cleric's Quintet would have NEVER happened in the new Realms because Caddely is the Chosen of Deneir. When I first read the books, I realized I'd completely forgotten who Deneir was. It's really going to play literal havac with my games as it's going to be practically impossible to alter my mental background. The Triad is pretty much the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit of the Games yet now two of them are gone. Lawful Goodness has taken a serious kick in the :censored: and it's practically impossible to imagine how it's ever going to recover. Whose going to form the new Triad? Will there be one? Hell, I had the Triad have a big hammer as their symbol for the mock Christian symbolism. An upside down sword (for Torm) just has nastier connotations in ways that I really can't quite articulate. Oh well. I'm through the Denial Stage of Grief into Panic.
Kenzuki 01-29-08, 08:28 AM	Personally I don't give a crap how "Tyr should have acted" or "the writters were stupid!" or "I won't use this in MY Realms." Or "Greenwood doesn't support that!" The Fact is that Tyr did this thing. It's canon, it's fact. It's out their folks! Nothing you will do will erase the horrible thing that Tyr did. It's forever etched in the Forgotten Realms unless it's retconned. Because bottum line is, Wizards owns the setting and they are in control. Sad but true.:weep:
MarkusTay63 01-29-08, 10:22 AM	People, when quoting somone, para-phrasing is not only allowed, it is also POLITE. I realize that Storm was making a point, so I forgive HER for her obnoxiously large latters, but seeing them two more times was completely unneccesary. :ahem: I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I've seen way too much of this 'entire post' quotation going on lately, especially pics. Just quote the part thats pertinent to your own post, like so - So far, the body count includes... Tyr Mystra Savas HelmSavras is one of my favorite gods, so a least respct him enough in death to get his name right. ;) Your Resident 'Jerk' --- Mark :P
Charles Phipps 01-29-08, 10:25 AM	Personally I don't give a crap how "Tyr should have acted" or "the writters were stupid!" or "I won't use this in MY Realms." Or "Greenwood doesn't support that!" The Fact is that Tyr did this thing. It's canon, it's fact. It's out their folks! Nothing you will do will erase the horrible thing that Tyr did. It's forever etched in the Forgotten Realms unless it's retconned. Because bottum line is, Wizards owns the setting and they are in control. Sad but true.:weep: Yeah? And? The Shadow Weave does/does not collapse when the Weave collapses. Canon can be changed at the stroke of the pen and is meaningless in and inherently of itself. Also, everyone is welcome to ignore it at their game tables as well. Savras is one of my favorite gods, so a least respct him enough in death to get his name right. Fixed.
Kenzuki 01-29-08, 02:04 PM	My point is we are talking about the canon Tyr. Not YOUR Tyr, Greenwood's Tyr, Greenwood's Momma's Tyr. The fact is Tyr did these things and so that is why we are discussing it.
Charles Phipps 01-29-08, 02:11 PM	My point is we are talking about the canon Tyr. Not YOUR Tyr, Greenwood's Tyr, Greenwood's Momma's Tyr. The fact is Tyr did these things and so that is why we are discussing it. Greenwood's Tyr is the canon Tyr. :confused: Did I miss something? And this is a funeral to say goodbye to EVERY Tyr in EVERY D&D game that's going to be affected by the removal of him from the Faerun pantheon/his place of prominence at the head of the pantheon. Honestly, Kenzuki, if this were the Time of Troubles and we were mourning Bane would you show up and say "Bane WAS killed by Mystra though and he died like a punk." Really, I don't see why you care about what canon said since a paragraph in a timeline book can be read in any number of ways. Also, they can retcon it in the past. Frankly, I see no reason not to read it in one of the "off ways" until Richard Baker demonstratedly points out it happened in a different way or (hopefully) shows some respect towards Tyr by having the duel happen under evil influences that absolve both Helm and him. (I hope it'll happen in the E. Odyssey Trilogy)
Kenzuki 01-29-08, 02:18 PM	Helm doesn't have to be absolved of anything, since he didn't DO anything.
MarkusTay63 01-29-08, 02:48 PM	Oh... you KNOW he was hittin' that... :P Greenwood's Momma's Tyr...Isn't he the Over-God of Grandmaspace? :confused:
Charles Phipps 01-29-08, 04:06 PM	Helm doesn't have to be absolved of anything, since he didn't DO anything. :rolleyes: Oh yes, cause a duel to the death is fought by just one person and the winner automatically is in the wrong while the loser is an innocent victim. Helm lost but he accepted the challenge. I'm not :censored: on Helm but Tyr isn't the bad guy here. Seeing the huge Lawful Good on his alignment and all.
Kenzuki 01-29-08, 05:27 PM	:rolleyes: Oh yes, cause a duel to the death is fought by just one person and the winner automatically is in the wrong while the loser is an innocent victim. Helm lost but he accepted the challenge. I'm not :censored: on Helm but Tyr isn't the bad guy here. Seeing the huge Lawful Good on his alignment and all. 1. Tyr is a Greater God. Helm was an Intermediate God. Big difference. 2. Helm couldn't refuse due to his portfolio responsibilities. Likewise, Tyr challenged him because his sense of Justice had been offended. This is like a level 16 barbarian challenges a level 1 paladin to duel and insults his honor. They are going to fight and the paladin WILL die. 3. He is Lawful God, but that doesn't mean he can't do something bad.
MaskedOne 01-29-08, 06:07 PM	My opinion on Tyr varies dependent on mood and what I'm reading but since I have no faith whatsoever in the current design team's abilities to form a half-decent plot (this is my polite opinion on them, impolite attracts mods) or to portray any of the benevolent divinities in a way that comes close to doing them justice, I'm inclined to think that most of the blame lies with Tyr being portrayed as an idiot and Cyric being granted power that he should not possess. This is not to say I'm particularly fond of Helm and I'm not really mourning his death, I value his office but every portrayal I've seen of Helm leaves me with an urgent desire to injure him. I just don't think he was guilty of anything more than being a little dense when confronted with a bad situation in this one case. If I had any lingering faith in the design team than yes I might consider Tyr's position defensible, as it is I think they deliberately portrayed him as a flaming idiot to suit ulterior agendas that I don't particularly appreciate. I have a similar opinion opinion of their treatment of Tymora and Sune. Farewell to decent or potentially decent Gods that WotC has seen fit to slaughter for personal amusement. May they find sanctuary in various home campaigns. Now then I have to restore Lady Magic and reduce Shar to a demi-power for her part in assaulting my Lady.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-29-08, 08:39 PM	Yeah it sucks, and you can disagree with it or ignor it all you want. But it won't erase the fact that it DID infact happen in the canon. Bleh, canon's not very important. The concept of "canon" is more important to WotC (which needs to have some kind of "base" for their products that use this setting) than to any of us.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-29-08, 08:45 PM	Canon can be changed at the stroke of the pen and is meaningless in and inherently of itself. Also, everyone is welcome to ignore it at their game tables as well. Quoted for truth--that's another good way of putting it.:)
Charles Phipps 01-29-08, 08:47 PM	1. Tyr is a Greater God. Helm was an Intermediate God. Big difference. True, though I don't think it's that big of a power difference. Eli managed to kill a whole bunch of gods in the Drow Pantheon. Plus, the Dark Elven MORTALS killed Kiranshalee and Sel the Demigod. 2. Helm couldn't refuse due to his portfolio responsibilities. Likewise, Tyr challenged him because his sense of Justice had been offended. Both very true, though oddly you'd think they were both violating their portfolios. This is like a level 16 barbarian challenges a level 1 paladin to duel and insults his honor. They are going to fight and the paladin WILL die. Which is why Paladins have only Evil acts rather than Chaotic removing their status now. ;-) 3. He is Lawful God, but that doesn't mean he can't do something bad. True, but I've stated that I'm going to be looking for more explanation in future supplements. I value his office but every portrayal I've seen of Helm leaves me with an urgent desire to injure him. I just don't think he was guilty of anything more than being a little dense when confronted with a bad situation in this one case. If I had any lingering faith in the design team than yes I might consider Tyr's position defensible, as it is I think they deliberately portrayed him as a flaming idiot to suit ulterior agendas that I don't particularly appreciate. I have a similar opinion opinion of their treatment of Tymora and Sune. Helm, for me, is like Cyric. His portfolio and write-up is far more awesome than any portrayal of him in canon has ever been. Ditto Bane, oddly enough. Bleh, canon's not very important. The concept of "canon" is more important to WotC (which needs to have some kind of "base" for their products that use this setting) than to any of us. This I agree with.
Storm_Silverhand 01-30-08, 01:29 AM	Heya, 1. I think it needs to be questioned whether or not Sune actually believed that love would develop between these individuals. Sune doesn't really strike me as the "love can develop over time" type of person but stranger things have certainly happened. Perhaps she did. Or perhaps she was lead to believe that it could by Cyric-the-Almighty... But I still don't think she'd go in for arranged marriages. I think she'd suggest it if she was completely convinced that Tyr and Tymora were in love already, but not if they weren't. I can't think of two more incompatible deities, to be honest. 2. I totally agree here. Frankly, its difficult to really imagine Tyr taking anything but stoically. The guy is, almost by definition, a cold fish about practically anything. He's the God of Good Judgement, the guy makes informed rational decisions about what he has for lunch. Also, the loss of Siamorphe doesn't really strike me as a strategic loss of inestimable value. That's exactly right. I just don't understand why Tyr would have got so upset. Wouldn't be more interested in a political marriage with Torm and Red Knight? That seems to have much more advantage than alliance with Brightwater. Meh. I've never been sold on them as a couple. But I am biased, I am not a big fan of Torm, and I like Red Knight quite a lot - so I wouldn't like to see her with someone I don't like that much... If that makes sense. :P (wait; since when do the gods get married anyway? Isn't Corellon the only married God in the whole of Faerun?!) Corellon has a consort - according to some it is Sehanine, and according to others it is Angharradh (who is actually Sehanine, Hanali, and Aerdrie united in one form). No deity is officially married. Lathander and Chauntea are lovers, Kelemvor and Mystra never really had a chance (I am uncertain if they were lovers as deities or not, but I know there was some love there until Cyric supposedly killed it (I think Mystra and Kelemvor just grew apart, and Cyric's actions only hastened the demise of their love, rather than being the actual cause), there are some suggestions that Lliira and Waukeen were involved at one point (but nothing blatant), Tymora and Brandobaris and Bast/Sharess and Anhur have on again off again romantic involvement, and I really can't think of any other deific couples (I'm sure I've missed some though)... None of them, except maybe Corellon depending on exactly how you interpret the use of the word consort, are married. 3. Tymora is certainly an odd choice for the matter. Tomboyish girls with Freckles isn't exactly the kind of military and noble asset you'd expect in the House of the Triad. Not to sound bizarre or anything but wouldn't Llirra be a much more likely candidate for this (unless her tastes are completely towards women instead of men)? Tymora's avatar is no longer the "boyish, crafty-faced, brunette, human tomboy" she was prior to the Time of Troubles. Since "her stay in the Lady's House in Arabel, however, she updated the look of her avatar to appeal to a greater number of worshipers. Thus her typical avatar now appears as a regal, lithe human woman wearing expensive robes. Her long, unbound platinum hair is marked by a modest crown of gold." Sounds like it would suit House of the Triad - but her appearance masks a purely Chaotic Good being, who is far more likely to be pulling pranks on Tyr than marrying him. It also makes no sense that Tymora would leave the Realm she helped to form... It was Tymora more than Sune who founded Brightwater. I don't think Lliira would be any more interested in the situation than I'd imagine Tymora would be. (We have proof that Lliira has had a female lover before (her High Revelmistress, who was killed), and her friendship with Waukeen was close enough that Waukeen trusted her with her portfolios while trying to escape Toril during the Time of Troubles), if Lliira were just a mortal, on that basis I would have to conclude that she is likely to be a lesbian (or bisexual, but we have no proof of her prior involvement with males of any variety) - but she's a deity, and they're pretty much all capable of being omnisexual.) I'm just horrified at the blow that Mount Celestia took. Ilmater, Helm, and Siamorphe? Also, The House of the Triad doesn't really strike me as a great place for a Goddess of Luck. Evil seems to have the upper hand right now, because someone, somewhere, has come to the conclusion that EVIL IS UBER COOL. :nonono:
MarkusTay63 01-30-08, 11:09 AM	Luck having NOTHING to do with war?! :uh-huh: Some of history's greatest turning points were all about being in the 'right place at the right time'. One example - the night before the Emperor of Japan was going to surrender, the military was planning a coupe in order to prolong the war. That night, mere moments before the assassins were about to grab the Emperor, American Planes on a bombing run knocked out the electricity, and sent everyone into high alert. The coupe was accidently foiled, and Japan surrendered. Had they not, the Japanese military was prepared to make US soldiers fight for every foot of ground on the islands, and the Allies would have been forced to commit genocide on an entire race of people in order to gain victory. Pretty lucky thing that one bomb happened to knock out the palace electricity, eh? ;) There's thousands of such examples, but you get my point. Sometimes, one tiny piece of luck changes the course of history.
Kenzuki 01-30-08, 11:19 AM	I canon is not important, then why are you all ****** off about "how things are SUPPOSED to be" then?
MarkusTay63 01-30-08, 11:27 AM	Because no one wants to see the Realms perish as an Intellectual property, do to a lack of creativity. Just because I change everything in my games, dosn't mean I want to see the canon Realms die a slow and painful death.
Kenzuki 01-30-08, 11:30 AM	But I thought canon doesn't matter?
MarkusTay63 01-30-08, 11:38 AM	It doesn't - not to individual games, anyway. However, the Realms have become much more then just a PnP D&D setting - there are novels, Video Games, fansites, etc... No matter how much I disagree with some of the changes they are making, I do not wish to see FR become a novels-only setting. Personally, I don't think the novels are all that great, and I don't think that they alone will be able to sustain FR into the future. The designers seem to be forgetting that the GAME created the need for the novels, and without the game, the need for novels goes away. I read most of the books, as do others, because I like to keep up to date on the lore, but if there was no game, I, and I suspect many others, would no longer purchase the books. They simply aren't good enough fiction to stand on their own, IMHO. No one wants to see the setting go the way of Greyhawk, and that's why I've been keeping my mouth shut (for the most part) concerning my dislike for 4e Realms - I don't want to turn off any new players who won't realize what they lost, and will keep the setting alive for future generations of gamers.
Triton 01-30-08, 12:00 PM	I agree with The Maskedone. The 4th edition explainations are third grade. They seem to very quickly come up with an excuse and move on. We all want story lines that make complete sense with care for detail. Not Drizzt moves forward and kills Matron Baenre in battle (what the ****!!!). I also do not like how the powers that be portade the gods. Only Kelemvor seemed to pay complete homage to his portfolio and still have personality. Both Tyr and Helm were to often cast as automatons to their portfolio. Let Tyr set a thief free for stealing bread for the poor, or helm move aside so that a guarded treasure could be used for a just cause. They are suppose to be Good gods not neutral right! But please remember that just like this is my opinion, all the stories we have read are someone elses. Arguing about if Rich, Ed, or any other author has cast the character badly is allowing a group of editors to effect the love we all have for a realms that exists first and foremost in our hearts. And allowing this to happen releases a Spellplague in the realms that is most important. IMHO
Kenzuki 01-30-08, 01:22 PM	I agree with The Maskedone. The 4th edition explainations are third grade. They seem to very quickly come up with an excuse and move on. We all want story lines that make complete sense with care for detail. Not Drizzt moves forward and kills Matron Baenre in battle (what the ****!!!). I also do not like how the powers that be portade the gods. Only Kelemvor seemed to pay complete homage to his portfolio and still have personality. Both Tyr and Helm were to often cast as automatons to their portfolio. Let Tyr set a thief free for stealing bread for the poor, or helm move aside so that a guarded treasure could be used for a just cause. They are suppose to be Good gods not neutral right! But please remember that just like this is my opinion, all the stories we have read are someone elses. Arguing about if Rich, Ed, or any other author has cast the character badly is allowing a group of editors to effect the love we all have for a realms that exists first and foremost in our hearts. And allowing this to happen releases a Spellplague in the realms that is most important. IMHO Helm wasn't supposed to be a good god. He was Lawful Neutral. He's the God of Guardians, Protectors and Protection. This is why Ao chose him to make sure that none of the gods during the ToT would ascend the stairway. Because Helm does not move for anyone. This is why he didn't back down from Tyr because he can't, it's not in his nature. Tyr probably knew this and exploited it.
Charles Phipps 01-30-08, 02:11 PM	Tyr probably knew this and exploited it. :bored: The God of Justice exploited Helm's unflinching resolve?
Kenzuki 01-30-08, 02:38 PM	:bored: The God of Justice exploited Helm's unflinching resolve? The God of Justice accused Helm of a crime he did not commit and challenged him to a duel knowing he wouldn't refuse where upon He a Greater Deity slew a weaker Deity. The icing on the cake of this whole ordeal is that it is ultimately Tyr's own fault because he was the one who made Helm act a go between to Tymora. Thus the God of Justice was Unjust in this whole ordeal.
Charles Phipps 01-30-08, 02:59 PM	The God of Justice accused Helm of a crime he did not commit and challenged him to a duel knowing he wouldn't refuse where upon He a Greater Deity slew a weaker Deity. The icing on the cake of this whole ordeal is that it is ultimately Tyr's own fault because he was the one who made Helm act a go between to Tymora. Thus the God of Justice was Unjust in this whole ordeal. :rolleyes: So, not only is it a crime of passion, it's now apparently pre-meditated murder?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-30-08, 03:42 PM	I canon is not important, then why are you all ****** off about "how things are SUPPOSED to be" then? Because some of us would have liked to have seen more stories/adventures about people and places that are being deleted from the Realms. Now, we are much less likely to see such stories, since WotC tends to focus on what's new.
Kenzuki 01-30-08, 05:13 PM	You didn't get enough of the hedonistic adventures of Elminster and the Seven Sisters eh?
Charles Phipps 01-30-08, 05:15 PM	You didn't get enough of the hedonistic adventures of Elminster and the Seven Sisters eh? What's annoying is that I can say, in all seriousness, they're some of my favorite characters both to read about and use in my games.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-30-08, 05:32 PM	You didn't get enough of the hedonistic adventures of Elminster and the Seven Sisters eh? I'm going to echo Charles and say YES, I loved those characters and I hope to read more about them. But they aren't the only characters I was talking about (and of course, it's definite that Elminster is still around).
Kenzuki 01-30-08, 05:35 PM	There can still be stories about them. Just have Greenwood do what Salvator always seems to do and write in the past. It's still a few years til the Spellplague hits, plenty of story potential from 1372 to 1385. Plenty of time to go around saving the world or just having having a tryst with that busty barmaid or handsome young stableboy or whatever it is they do.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-30-08, 05:37 PM	I have some hope that some novels will still be set in the past. However, I have become increasingly worried that that will not be the case.
Charles Phipps 01-30-08, 05:46 PM	Well, mostly, in the Forgotten Realms I used the Seven Sisters and Khel/El as political motivators to be honest. 1. The purpose of Khelben the Blackstaff wasn't that he was a 20+ or so Wizard but the fact that he had his finger in every pie in the Forgotten Realms. I also had him as the Gruff but serious contrast to Elminster whom I played as just this side of being as insane as Halastar Blackcloak. 2. The Seven Sisters I had the Simbul and Alustriel as basically important political figures as their primary purpose. Qilue as well had her role as the Chosen of El, though I rarely used that sisterhood, she was there if I needed her. Larael, I confess, was mostly there as a side-kick to highlight Khelben in my games. Sort of like when a PC was petrified when Khel summoned him with a teleport spell after he'd been in bed with her. Khel: I'm sorry, I have ACTUALLY important matters to discuss. ;-) But Storm and Dove? Well, they were a Bard and a Ranger. They weren't exactly power unbalancing and had the ability to be messangers that were pretty much all over the whole of the Realms. Sylune was dead, so she just highlighted not even Chosen are invulnerable. 3. El....well El was just there to scare the players. Hehe. My concern for their absence isn't just about the fact we won't see any more novels about them. Honestly, Khelben deserved a lot more than "Blackstaff" and the Time Jump means we'll never see him again with Arilyn and Danillo either. It's also that such rich Realms personalities are gone from games set in a semi-canonically 4E (and players need that as a point of reference---you don't know how depressing it is to introduce King Azoun and have players ask who that is because they thought Alusair was Queen"). Canon is meaningless at tables and in of itself. But it does have an affect because players and new readers BUY the books as their introductions. When it's a choice that isn't best, it should be changed. Like with Tyr my Man.
Storm_Silverhand 01-30-08, 05:53 PM	Heya, Luck having NOTHING to do with war?! :uh-huh: Luck has lots to do with War, but very little to do with Justice. Tyr is the god of Justice, not the god of War.
Charles Phipps 01-30-08, 05:55 PM	Perhaps she did. Or perhaps she was lead to believe that it could by Cyric-the-Almighty... But I still don't think she'd go in for arranged marriages. I think she'd suggest it if she was completely convinced that Tyr and Tymora were in love already, but not if they weren't. I tend to think that its giving Cyric, even a awesome and brilliant Cyric, too much credit to be able to fool Sune/Tyr AND Helm. I like doing Cyric as Richard the Third but there's a difference between brilliant and a Xanatos Roulette. http://www.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosRoulette Meh. I've never been sold on them as a couple. But I am biased, I am not a big fan of Torm, and I like Red Knight quite a lot - so I wouldn't like to see her with someone I don't like that much... If that makes sense. It depends on how you play them. Frankly, you don't think they'd have that much in common (and Torm would go for....how do I say this gently....a more "girly" type such as Eldath). However, I do think the relationship is fun simply because of the idea that it's the woman whose the reasonable and practical one. Torm: We can't give up, there's always a way! Otherwise...the terrorists win! Red Knight: *face palm* None of them, except maybe Corellon depending on exactly how you interpret the use of the word consort, are married. Which is why it's bizarre. Almost every real life religion has married deities. This would be a first in the Realms (excepting the Mulhorandi/Unther) Tymora's avatar is no longer the "boyish, crafty-faced, brunette, human tomboy" she was prior to the Time of Troubles. Which is a damn shame. We need more women other than statuesque Waukeen types. if Lliira were just a mortal, on that basis I would have to conclude that she is likely to be a lesbian (or bisexual, but we have no proof of her prior involvement with males of any variety) - but she's a deity, and they're pretty much all capable of being omnisexual.) I've always held the gods to be Omni-sexual. Corellon and Lathander were both prone to loving men as well as women and there were impliances that Tyr and Helm had more than a simple relationship of friendship in my games. [What's bizarre, is, looking at that.....it actually probably would make MORE sense in canon that Helm was jealous of TYR or vice versa than the other way around] And thank you very much, now I'm thinking about Torm and Eldath dating. Doh! Evil seems to have the upper hand right now, because someone, somewhere, has come to the conclusion that EVIL IS UBER COOL. It's not like Evil has benefitted all that much. Cyric's :censored: bound at the bottom of a Pit! Luck having NOTHING to do with war?! Tyr would say, in all seriousness and an Alec Guiness voice. "In my experience, there's no such thing as Luck." Oh yes, he and Tymora will get along SOOOO well.
Storm_Silverhand 01-30-08, 06:28 PM	Heya, I tend to think that its giving Cyric, even a awesome and brilliant Cyric, too much credit to be able to fool Sune/Tyr AND Helm. I like doing Cyric as Richard the Third but there's a difference between brilliant and a Xanatos Roulette. http://www.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosRoulette :eek: Oh no! Not that site again! I only just managed to extricate myself from it yesterday... :ton: I agree. Cyric is not powerful enough to pull the wool over the eyes of two Greater Deities (Sune and Tyr), one Intermediate Deity who may as well be Greater (Tymora), and another Intermediate Deity (Helm). Let alone, the Demideity who started it all (Siamorhpe), and another Intermediate deity who left the House of the Triad in disgust (Ilmater). Evil Supremacists would say something different, I'm sure, but the fact of the matter remains - canon or not - the entire plot is ridiculous. It depends on how you play them. Frankly, you don't think they'd have that much in common (and Torm would go for....how do I say this gently....a more "girly" type such as Eldath). However, I do think the relationship is fun simply because of the idea that it's the woman whose the reasonable and practical one. What makes you think Torm would go in for a more femme type? Red has always struck me as kinda butch, but I wouldn't say she was overly so... I've always liked female war deities... Especially ones like Athena, and if any deity has a parallel to Athena it would be the Red Knight. Torm: We can't give up, there's always a way! Otherwise...the terrorists win! Red Knight: *face palm* *chortles* Which is why it's bizarre. Almost every real life religion has married deities. This would be a first in the Realms (excepting the Mulhorandi/Unther) It is kind of odd... And it would be (how could I forget Isis and Osiris, and Set and Nephthys in my list of Deific couples!?). Which is a damn shame. We need more women other than statuesque Waukeen types. Well it comes down to favoured appearance. Any deity can take on any form they please, it's not that hard to change. :) On a related note, I far preferred Tymora's 2nd Ed Holy Symbol (a plain silver disk) to her 3rd Edition one (a silver coin with Tymora's face surrounded by shamrocks)... The former was far more subtle, the latter is... bleh. :yuck: I've always held the gods to be Omni-sexual. Corellon and Lathander were both prone to loving men as well as women and there were impliances that Tyr and Helm had more than a simple relationship of friendship in my games. [What's bizarre, is, looking at that.....it actually probably would make MORE sense in canon that Helm was jealous of TYR or vice versa than the other way around] Interesting. :) Tyr and Helm... I suppose it could work! :D And it would explain a few things... Though I can't see Tyr killing his lover over a perceived infidelity. I think he'd want some solid proof first... But even then, while Tyr would be angry, it would be more along the lines of "why didn't you talk to me about this?" than "how dare you cheat on me!" And thank you very much, now I'm thinking about Torm and Eldath dating. Doh! Hmm... I think they wouldn't be very compatible. After all, Torm is a War god in all but name, while Eldath is a pacifist. It's not like Evil has benefitted all that much. Cyric's :censored: bound at the bottom of a Pit! They had a peak, then their plots came unraveled. Shar lost the Shadow Weave when she tried to grab a hold of the Weave, and Cyric got slapped over the wrist and confined to his home for 1000 years. However, since they've stated that one of the main reasons Cyric succeeded with his killing Mystra plot was so they could move on with him and tell new stories. They can't very well tell new stories with him in prison... So I don't think the house arrest is going to last that long - Cyric will find a way to escape. :rolleye2: So at best it's a temporary setback. Tyr would say, in all seriousness and an Alec Guiness voice. "In my experience, there's no such thing as Luck." Oh yes, he and Tymora will get along SOOOO well. :rofl:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-30-08, 07:25 PM	I'm quite fond of Tymora's tomboyish form, myself.
Kenzuki 01-30-08, 07:42 PM	I thought Tymora's and Mystra's art in F&P were ugly myself....
ywhtptgtfo 01-30-08, 08:04 PM	Why are you guys arguing about this? This topic about GHotR is over-cooked. Seriously, the WotC team screwed things up big time and it's that simple.
ikki 01-30-08, 08:27 PM	So you're saying that Tyr was Just because he won a duel against a WEAKER foe? Pardon me while I laugh my ass off.:rolleyes: You clearly dont understand trial by combat. If Helm had been in the right, justice (or god) would have had him win.
ikki 01-30-08, 08:32 PM	Oh yeah... bt wasnt he just locked away for a millennia or so? Why not seek to free him a bit early ;) A bit like those Tharizdum cultists...
Kenzuki 01-30-08, 08:34 PM	You clearly dont understand trial by combat. If Helm had been in the right, justice (or god) would have had him win. Funny, that's how Bane settles arguements too. He must be the most Just god out there!
GreenKnight 01-30-08, 08:37 PM	You clearly dont understand trial by combat. If Helm had been in the right, justice (or god) would have had him win. Do you have any source whatsoever to back this up? And if so, does this mean that a 3rd-level Fighter who's in the right will always win a Trial by Combat, even if it's against an 18th-level Fighter?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-30-08, 08:37 PM	I don't even want to ponder how impartial a trial-by-combat against the god of justice must be, if said god is supposed to be the one who would normally decide who wins. Makes my head hurt.
GreenKnight 01-30-08, 08:42 PM	I don't even want to ponder how impartial a trial-by-combat against the god of justice must be, if said god is supposed to be the one who would normally decide who wins. Makes my head hurt. No kidding. Even if it were the case that the God of Justice actually settled things in a Trial By Combat (Which I don't believe to be the case at all), he's not about to rule against himself. How would that work out? "HELM! I accuse you of stealing my girl, even though you deny it, and so I challenge you to a Trial By Combat to settle things! However, I am in the wrong, so I declare you the winner!" *STAB* "Urk! And now I'm dead. Wish I'd known I would rule against myself before I issued the challenge..." *DIES*
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-30-08, 08:44 PM	Do you have any source whatsoever to back this up? And if so, does this mean that a 3rd-level Fighter who's in the right will always win a Trial by Combat, even if it's against an 18th-level Fighter? Interestingly enough, I was prompted by a part of the Neverwinter Nights 2 campaign to ask Ed a question about how accepted trial-by-combat is in the Realms. His answer was that it was actually pretty rare in most urban areas (which generally use a regular court system), and more common in rural and frontier regions. He also said that if a god (or multiple gods) want a person proven innocent, they would more likely just cause some type of divine manifestation or vision. It it not presumed that the gods have anything to do with trial-by-combat other than not being against it, per se. I'm going to try to find that answer... EDIT: I can't even find where Ed's answers are stored on Candlekeep, sorry. :(
GreenKnight 01-30-08, 08:50 PM	Interestingly enough, I was prompted by a part of the Neverwinter Nights 2 campaign to ask Ed a question about how accepted trial-by-combat is in the Realms. Yeah, I remember that part. What a gip. After all the trouble I went through to annihilate them at trial, I still had to duke it out with Trial By Combat? No problem, though, as my character was so friggin' tough that Lorne Starling didn't stand a chance. His answer was that it was actually pretty rare in most urban areas (which generally use a regular court system), and more common in rural and frontier regions. He also said that if a god (or multiple gods) want a person proven innocent, they would more likely just cause some type of divine manifestation or vision. It it not presumed that the gods have anything to do with trial-by-combat other than not being against it, per se. So divine intervention isn't automatic, and even when it does occur, it's not in the form of a weaker opponent becoming vastly stronger or anything like that. Thanks! EDIT: I can't even find where Ed's answers are stored on Candlekeep, sorry. :( No worries. All that matters is "I WAS RIGHT!" :P
sfdragon 01-30-08, 08:51 PM	And So Passes Tyr, Kin to Thor Son of Odin (and stupid do do who puts hand in mouth of really big dog with vorpal teath)
Charles Phipps 01-30-08, 09:07 PM	What makes you think Torm would go in for a more femme type? Just dividing the Knight Stereotype down the middle. There's a 50% chance he could go for the Eowyn (fellow warrior and hardass Shield Maiden) or he could go for the sweet and lovable type that represents civilization (The book Arwen) Red has always struck me as kinda butch, but I wouldn't say she was overly so... I've always liked female war deities... Especially ones like Athena, and if any deity has a parallel to Athena it would be the Red Knight. If Red Knight got Siamorphe's portfolio, she could outright BE Athena. Well it comes down to favoured appearance. Any deity can take on any form they please, it's not that hard to change. On a related note, I far preferred Tymora's 2nd Ed Holy Symbol (a plain silver disk) to her 3rd Edition one (a silver coin with Tymora's face surrounded by shamrocks)... The former was far more subtle, the latter is... bleh. She's the god of Luck, not the god of Tacky. Interesting. Tyr and Helm... I suppose it could work! And it would explain a few things... Though I can't see Tyr killing his lover over a perceived infidelity. I think he'd want some solid proof first... But even then, while Tyr would be angry, it would be more along the lines of "why didn't you talk to me about this?" than "how dare you cheat on me!" Eh, two Norse Deities and bossom buddies at least have something in common. Hmm... I think they wouldn't be very compatible. After all, Torm is a War god in all but name, while Eldath is a pacifist. Eldath is the Goddess of Peace but she's not a pacifist in most senses of the word since her Clergy is fully empowered to kick ass in her name. She's very much the embodiment of minimizing bloodshed and resorting to violence as a last resort. Oddly, Torm is very much like that as well. Besides, she can be his Staff Chick. http://forums.gleemax.com/subscription.php http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/d/de/200px-Aerith_Gainsborough_art.jpg They can't very well tell new stories with him in prison... So I don't think the house arrest is going to last that long - Cyric will find a way to escape. So at best it's a temporary setback. I dunno, they've done a lot of good stories about the Elder Elemental Evil...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-30-08, 09:07 PM	Yeah, I remember that part. What a gip. After all the trouble I went through to annihilate them at trial, I still had to duke it out with Trial By Combat? No problem, though, as my character was so friggin' tough that Lorne Starling didn't stand a chance. Heh! I let Khelgar do it--it was fitting, and my character was a bard who was a pretty good warrior, but not nearly as great as Khelgar. Much as in your case, Lorne didn't stand a chance.:) And yes, it was kind of annoying to win the trial, but have to fight him anyway. So divine intervention isn't automatic, and even when it does occur, it's not in the form of a weaker opponent becoming vastly stronger or anything like that. Thanks! You're welcome. :) But I still wish I could get the actual answer for you. Maybe Sage could get it or something (he's good at that:) ).
Charles Phipps 01-30-08, 09:11 PM	Funny, that's how Bane settles arguements too. He must be the most Just god out there! Actually, Bane is a fairly lawful God. His version of Justice is much more based on "STAY DOWN AND BOW PEASANT!" However, it would be wrong to suggest he's the guy who is about daggers in the back and so on. I was always struck by the scene where Kelemvor "tricks" bane into curing his Lycanthropy. Bane lived up to his part of the deal and expected Kelemvor to do the same. Then again, I like having every god have qualities other than Pure Evil (though Bane is almost absolutely the embodiment of it) No kidding. Even if it were the case that the God of Justice actually settled things in a Trial By Combat (Which I don't believe to be the case at all), he's not about to rule against himself. How would that work out? Uhhh, by being JUST. :rolleyes:
Charles Phipps 01-30-08, 09:17 PM	Google is your friend, R_F. http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/sse/sse_010203-07.htm "Hello again Ed! My latest query comes as a result of browsing the forums related to the new Neverwinter Nights 2 CRPG. Basically, there is an argument going on that attracted my interest about whether or not Lord Nasher of Neverwinter (as depicted in the official campaign) is a bad person/ruler, and one subject that was brought up in that thread is the use of trial-by-combat as a last resort when the player character is accused in court of having burned a Luskan village and slaughtering its inhabitants. Apparently, even if the player character successfully "wins" the trial, the prosecutor from Luskan will make a last ditch effort to appeal the case, and calls for Trial by Combat, which turns out to be mandatory. Also brought up was the subject of whether or not a good person in the Realms could believe that people are "guilty until proven innocent". This scenario, and the various arguments brought up by people in that thread, had me wondering about three things: 1) How prevalent (if at all) would trial by combat be in an official criminal court of a major city (like Neverwinter) presided over by the likes of Lord Nasher? I am wondering if the game gets its Realmslore right, here. Do many cities really have "obsure old laws" that allow someone to fight to prove someone's guilty or lack thereof? 2) There were arguments about the morality of trial by combat as is relevant to the social mores of a setting. I've known for a long time that social mores in the Realms are not identical to those of medieval Europe, but some put forth the argument that in such a setting trial by combat would be a common and/or legitimate way of determining if a person is guilty of commiting a crime. Is this the case? As I understand it, the whole idea is that the gods make sure the innocent person wins...but this seems strange to me, because as I understand it most cities in the Realms run by moral governments seem to have court systems much like our own which make use of actual evidence and facts to determine the outcome of a case, not fighting. 3) Is it really a common belief amongst moral people in the Realms--who are educated about the law, and very concerned about justice--that only a bad person would be accused of a crime and it's up to them to prove their innocence, and not vice versa (the modern notion that someone is innocent until proven guilty)? Again, some people were positing this idea, even though personally I find that very hard to believe, based on what I know of the Realms setting. For example, do followers of Tyr prefer to assume that a person is innocent until they are proven guilty, rather than risk doing harm to an innocent person "just in case" they really DID commit the crime? My gut feeling says yes, they would, but I'll defer to your thoughts on this. I know this is a complex question and a bit of a tall order, but as someone who is both interested in the Realms and laws/justice in general (I work in the legal field), I am most interested in hearing your own thoughts and opinions. Thank you, Rinonalyrna Fathomlin Ed replies: Hi! Good queries; okay, here we go... 1. No; any such claim is a distortion of true Realmslore; "obscure old traditions," yes, but "obscure old laws," no. However, this is not necessarily a lore mistake by the game's creators; please note that the prosecutor character in the game may very well fudge "tradition" into "law" to try to press his claim (successfully, obviously; in Luskan, the truth has never been very highly valued; getting one's own way is always the goal in any situation). In other words, he lies and the authorities go along with him because it's much easier to trade with a Luskan that believes you respect its belligerence as opposed to a Luskan that believes you belittled and dismissed its claims. Many places in the Sword Coast North and in Calimshan have VERY old traditions of trial by combat, dating from times when (and locales where) there was no functioning temple system, policing, or legal system, and thus very little way of investigating crimes and "proving" guilt. In Neverwinter, today, only among the nobles would trial by combat be a custom (i.e. one noble settling a dispute with another). Even then, it is restricted to both combatants being adults, strict rules for the duel (seconds, witnesses drawn from all local walks of life [guilded merchant, unguilded shopkeeper, noble, city watch, a local herald, one envoy of a foreign city or realm, etc.], priests standing by to give aid and enforce rules as to how the duel shall end [to stop good fighters or cheaters using duels to murder foes], etc.). Outlanders MIGHT be allowed standing under this tradition IF they claimed noble status and no local could refute it, but Neverwinter itself barely has a surviving nobility, and there's certainly no widespread right-now-Realmstime acceptance of trial by combat, ESPECIALLY when either side can employ champions not directly concerned with the crime (i.e. accused fighting victim or victim's spouse might be thought "just" by the average citizen; accused fighting a trained, court-appointed warrior would NOT). 2. You are correct. The Realms is not medieval Europe, and most intelligent and civilized folk in the Realms would believe that "the gods determining guilt or innocence" would be a matter of the god DIRECTLY signalling guilt or innocence by manifesting (e.g. Lathander's rosy glow surrounds accused) or speaking (voice from altar or avatar, NOT from mortal priest), or sending dream-visions to any judge, jury, executioner, prosecutor, and all witnesses, defendants, etc. of what really happened or what the god wants done now - - and in the case of an imminent sentence (i.e. hanging, hand about to be chopped off), the visions would be immediate, waking ones, not visions sent later when every surviving concerned individual falls asleep. Certain secular governments in the Realms (such as olden-days Thay and some of the Chessentan cities) had trial by combat, but no one ever advanced the fiction that this had anything at all to do with the gods other than it being a practice they didn't frown on. 3. No, there's no such "common belief." Faiths embrace the presumption of guilt (and, occasionally, the notion of trial by combat) differently, and their positions change from time to time, but there's no general, overall belief at all. This is a case of some gamers projecting "their take" on the Realms (perfectly legitimate, of course; we all bring our own experience and therefore understanding to every game we try, and roleplaying games leave far more leeway in that than do, say, the rules of checkers) into "what the Realms should be and is, for all, because I say so." Even *I* don't get to do that, untrammeled, and I created the beast. :} So saith Ed. Who hopes that helps, Rinonalyrna (and who agrees with you, BTW, that in the race to trim down SWORDS OF EVENINGSTAR, the grieving over Martess, Agannor, and Bey got short shrift). love to all, THO
Kenzuki 01-30-08, 09:25 PM	Actually, Bane is a fairly lawful God. His version of Justice is much more based on "STAY DOWN AND BOW PEASANT!" However, it would be wrong to suggest he's the guy who is about daggers in the back and so on. I was always struck by the scene where Kelemvor "tricks" bane into curing his Lycanthropy. Bane lived up to his part of the deal and expected Kelemvor to do the same. Then again, I like having every god have qualities other than Pure Evil (though Bane is almost absolutely the embodiment of it) Uhhh, by being JUST. :rolleyes: So by that logic, Tyr would NEVER lose Trial By Combat. Because he's Just.
Charles Phipps 01-30-08, 09:28 PM	So by that logic, Tyr would NEVER lose Trial By Combat. Because he's Just. Tyr will never throw a Trial, Never Falsify Evidence, Never Falter in the Pursuit of Justice, or never make a Improper Verdict. It's part of his powers as being the GOD OF JUSTICE. If Tyr, willingly, entered a Trial by Combat when he's in the wrong (which would be bizarrely out of character to begin with) then he'd lose against a MORTAL because he's the embodiment of justice. Kenny the Kobold would kick his ass. There's no reason to assume Helm vs. Tyr was a Trial by Combat, however. It might have just been a flat out duel. It's like Sune working to destroy the love in two people's hearts or Shar deciding to help some people get over their angst.
Charles Phipps 01-30-08, 09:36 PM	http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14458644&postcount=1246 Is the post that indicated the end of Tyr in the Realms. Oh no! Not that site again! I only just managed to extricate myself from it yesterday... Give into the Dark Si...err Shadow Weave. It is the only way to save your friends.... I agree. Cyric is not powerful enough to pull the wool over the eyes of two Greater Deities (Sune and Tyr), one Intermediate Deity who may as well be Greater (Tymora), and another Intermediate Deity (Helm). Let alone, the Demideity who started it all (Siamorhpe), and another Intermediate deity who left the House of the Triad in disgust (Ilmater). Evil Supremacists would say something different, I'm sure, but the fact of the matter remains - canon or not - the entire plot is ridiculous. Here's how I'm going to try and introduce it in my games until I can get the official word from Richard Baker: Basically, Sune gets a flight of fancy to set up Tymora and Tyr just like she gets these moods for other deities. Talos and Mystra, Moradin and Sehaine, or Bane and Eldath. It's just an expected part of the goddess of love to follow whimsey. Sequence of Events 1. Tyr and Tymora take it semi-seriously, okay Tyr does. Tymora tends to just accept the gifts from Tyr as he reluctantly goes about courting in his traditionally old fashioned way. Maybe she finds it cute or maybe it's just something silly. 2. Helm, however, was a lover of Tymora way back when. It was a reasonably lengthy affair for the gods, though Helm's love of Law eventually brought back away from her. The feelings were once there, though, as he was the one kindly conducting the various offerings from the House of the Triad. 3. Cyric, out to cause trouble, sneaks away into Brightwater and steals away some of Sune's most powerful draughts meant to spark love in even the gods. He proceeds in true Tristan and Isolde fashion to "poison" Helm and make him once more fall in love for Tymora. The plan doesn't go QUITE as well as it should. Because Helm's honor and dignity prevent anything truly untoward from happening. (Much to Tymora's disappointment) 4. Tyr is enraged, not by the affair. That's unimportant. The fact that Helm would LIE to him and worse *COMPROMISE A MISSION*, however, is unforgivable. Tyr proceeds, egged on by Cyric impersonating one of Tyr's Seraphs (having imprisoned or murdered the real one), to go confront Helm about this matter. Tyr finds Helm passionately in love but angered at the bismirchments on his honor. 5. Tyr challenges Helm to a duel of honor. Helm accepts, knowing he's innocent and angered Tyr believes the accusations of the Seraph (Cyric's power as God of Lies nullifying Tyr's ability at good judgement). Cyric the Seraph then proceeds to give Tyr a doctored sword that is actually one of his avatars. The duel is to be to the first blood. 6. Tyr wins the duel but the demonic sword of Cyric bites deeply into Helm's flesh as the Dark Sun sacrifices much of his power to poison the Protector God with darkness. Helm dies forgiving Tyr even as the rest of the divine world turns against the Justicar, who cannot understand what has happened but is believed to have committed a shameless act of murder by the faithful pantheon. *Raises eyebrow at readers* The set up for a game where the players find Tyr's REAL Seraph and prove complicity is thus set. "For Duty or Deity TWO!" The only thing I can't justify is why Tymora would still marry Tyr or stay at the House of the Triad.
Kenzuki 01-30-08, 09:37 PM	You're the one that's been calling it trial by combat lol. Oh and according to the book it said that it was a MISUNDERSTANDING. That means that Tyr was W.R.O.N.G wrong. Not only was Tyr wrong, his MOMMA was wrong, his DOG was wrong and his HAND that is in the gullet of the Chaos Hound was wrong. He was WRONG to send Helm to act as a middle man to Tymora. I mean my GOD he's a Norseman for the love of god. He should know how to get a woman! Even if it ment going to Brightwater and throwing her over his should and said "Come on baby, let's make music together!" in a Barry White voice. If Helm was in the wrong it's STILL Tyr's fault because he didn't have the stones to do it himself. So no matter how you look at it Tyr is still wrong. Just my two cents.
Charles Phipps 01-30-08, 09:42 PM	You missed the part where Green Knight showed that I was wrong? Cause I wasn't arguing it was anymore. :P So no matter how you look at it Tyr is still wrong. Just my two cents. Helm dying was a tragic loss but that doesn't mean Tyr wasn't justified in some respect. Cyric is the villain here, not Tyr.
Kenzuki 01-30-08, 09:59 PM	You missed the part where Green Knight showed that I was wrong? Cause I wasn't arguing it was anymore. :P Helm dying was a tragic loss but that doesn't mean Tyr wasn't justified in some respect. Cyric is the villain here, not Tyr. Prove to me that Cyric is the villain here. Until then, Tyr is the villain.
Charles Phipps 01-30-08, 10:18 PM	Prove to me that Cyric is the villain here. Until then, Tyr is the villain. "They sense the hand of Cyric." I win. :embarrass
SolDragon 01-30-08, 10:46 PM	I think the idea behind the story of Tyr-Helm-Tymora-Cyric is a good one, however, the execution is thus far lacking. More concrete details are needed to fully explain the situation. As is, though, the idea of the God of Intrigue and Lies being able to create such a terrible situation is possible, and even likely. I would take the level of manipulation Cyric plied upon this situation far beyond the immediate conflict that resulted. Perhaps Cyric is the reason that Siamorphe left The House Of The Triad in the first place, unbeknownst to her, creating the destabilized political situation and intrigue that started it all. Then, a few more intrigues and manipulations to place the idea in Sunes head that Love could develop between Tymora and Tyr, while sating the political situation at the same time. Sune seems to be an idealist, and I doubt it would be incredibly difficult to convince her of the romantic appeal behind bringing Luck and Justice together in Love. Move from there to subtly suggest to Tyr that he use Helm as an intermediary, begin placing hints that Helm and Tymora were developing feelings for each other to Tyr, perhaps even manipulate Tymora into believing that Helm had feelings for her, and finish it all off with one big showy "proof" or "clear indication" that Helm was betraying Tyr, and voila, tragedy is borne of deception. Essentially, the whole idea of the story, from my viewpoint, is that murder, lies, intrigue, and strife destroyed the ideals of justice, love, honor, protection, and good luck. It's a tragedy, and is meant to be viewed as one. Perhaps this was part of Cyrics plan to pave the way for the dominance his portfolios enjoyed over the last century in the Realms, since the ideals cherished by the deities involved in this travesty were certainly damaged on the cosmic level, by their own actions, albeit unwittingly. It certainly does not seem as if Justice, Love, Honor, Protection or Good Luck have done well for themselves in the last century in the Realms, at any rate. Whilst Murder, Intrigue, Lies, and Strife reign triumphant and practically unchecked. A perfect situation for the PCs to step into and begin to change.
Storm_Silverhand 01-31-08, 12:09 AM	Heya, Just dividing the Knight Stereotype down the middle. There's a 50% chance he could go for the Eowyn (fellow warrior and hardass Shield Maiden) or he could go for the sweet and lovable type that represents civilization (The book Arwen) Gotta love stereotypes. ;) If Red Knight got Siamorphe's portfolio, she could outright BE Athena. Hmm... Not really. Siamorphe is the goddess of Divine Right, while Athena was really a goddess of civilization, wisdom, crafts, and war. The difference is pretty pronounced, IMHO. Siamorphe is, by the way, another example of "Christian" concepts making their way into the Realms via the back door. I enclose Christian in quote marks there because I am quite aware that there are other religions that have had the concept of Divine Right (such as the Emperor of Japan being a descendant of the gods, likewise the Egyptian Pharaohs, the Roman Emperors, and a variety of others), but Siamorphe herself is very specific it isn't funny (Her Holy Symbol is the Holy Grail fer the sake of the gods!). Also many concepts found within the Arthurian mythology have their origins in Celtic and other native religions of the United Kingdom - but when a person thinks of Arthur, they usually think of him in his modern interpretation - that of a Christian King. (I'm not making a judgment about whether or not this a good thing, mind you, just making an observation.) She's the god of Luck, not the god of Tacky. 2nd Edition Tymora >>>>>>>>>>>> 3rd Edition Tymora. :) :D Eldath is the Goddess of Peace but she's not a pacifist in most senses of the word since her Clergy is fully empowered to kick ass in her name. She's very much the embodiment of minimizing bloodshed and resorting to violence as a last resort. Well her favoured weapon is a Net, and while she doesn't proscribe violence completely, she teaches that one should only ever lift ones hand in defense. So they're not really empowered to kick ass at all. Oddly, Torm is very much like that as well. Torm's the god of Paladins. Paladins are inherently warriors, and they often times take the fight to Evil. Eldath teaches that you only raise your hand in defense, so you need to wait for Evil to actually threaten you before responding. I dunno, they've done a lot of good stories about the Elder Elemental Evil... They have? *blink*
Storm_Silverhand 01-31-08, 12:33 AM	Heya, Give into the Dark Si...err Shadow Weave. It is the only way to save your friends.... Aaaaahhhhhhhh.... *runs away* 1. Tyr and Tymora take it semi-seriously, okay Tyr does. Tymora tends to just accept the gifts from Tyr as he reluctantly goes about courting in his traditionally old fashioned way. Maybe she finds it cute or maybe it's just something silly. I think Tymora would be horrified by Sune's suggestion and wonder what was going on. She might be amused by the gifts and the courting, but I really don't think she'd take it seriously at all. 2. Helm, however, was a lover of Tymora way back when. It was a reasonably lengthy affair for the gods, though Helm's love of Law eventually brought back away from her. The feelings were once there, though, as he was the one kindly conducting the various offerings from the House of the Triad. What when how why who? You're not confusing Murdane with Tyche are you? (You wouldn't be the first - but how anyone can confuse the goddess of logic and reason with the goddess of luck, is really beyond me.) Helm and Tymora have never been lovers. You can retcon your own Realms to reflect that, but Tymora has never been Helm's lover, and she's not the sort to settle into any relationship long term (look at her on again/off again fling with Brandobaris). 3. Cyric, out to cause trouble, sneaks away into Brightwater and steals away some of Sune's most powerful draughts meant to spark love in even the gods. He proceeds in true Tristan and Isolde fashion to "poison" Helm and make him once more fall in love for Tymora. The plan doesn't go QUITE as well as it should. Because Helm's honor and dignity prevent anything truly untoward from happening. (Much to Tymora's disappointment) I don't think Sune would encourage love potions, because that causes a person to fall in love with someone else against their will. Anathema to a Chaotic Good deity. Also, who says Tymora would be enthusiastic about Helm's advances? Especially since previously he showed no interest at all. She'd have to sense something was up, and even if she didn't, Sune would. 4. Tyr is enraged, not by the affair. That's unimportant. The fact that Helm would LIE to him and worse *COMPROMISE A MISSION*, however, is unforgivable. Tyr proceeds, egged on by Cyric impersonating one of Tyr's Seraphs (having imprisoned or murdered the real one), to go confront Helm about this matter. Tyr finds Helm passionately in love but angered at the bismirchments on his honor. What did Helm lie about? 5. Tyr challenges Helm to a duel of honor. Helm accepts, knowing he's innocent and angered Tyr believes the accusations of the Seraph (Cyric's power as God of Lies nullifying Tyr's ability at good judgement). Cyric the Seraph then proceeds to give Tyr a doctored sword that is actually one of his avatars. The duel is to be to the first blood. Now we're talking Cyric-Almighty again. How could he do that without Tyr noticing something is amiss? How is it that Cyric has unrestricted access to every deity's Realm? Surely if that were really the case, we'd have a few more dead lesser gods on our hands by now. The only thing I can't justify is why Tymora would still marry Tyr or stay at the House of the Triad. I don't think that'll ever be justifiable. Move from there to subtly suggest to Tyr that he use Helm as an intermediary, begin placing hints that Helm and Tymora were developing feelings for each other to Tyr, perhaps even manipulate Tymora into believing that Helm had feelings for her, and finish it all off with one big showy "proof" or "clear indication" that Helm was betraying Tyr, and voila, tragedy is borne of deception. People keep missing the point I keep trying to make when sounding like a broken record repeating "Loveless Political Marriage"... :nonono: For this to work, SolDragon, Tyr would have to love Tymora. Tyr would not be driven to such an extreme by the suggestion that Helm had feelings for Tymora. In fact, being the relatively noble god that he is, wouldn't it have been more logical for him to back off and let whatever develops between her and Helm develop? It's not like he and Tymora are married (it's never said in TGHotR that they end up married, just that Tymora goes to the House of the Triad). And Helm lived in the House of the Triad, so the balance would have been just as well served by a marriage between Helm and Tymora. (It really irks me that Tymora herself is treated like an object in this matter, and not as a being with feelings of her own. I like Tymora, she's pretty much my favorite deity (though that's a close run thing), and I can't see why she would possibly agree to this debacle in the first place.) By the way, I said that you couldn't find a couple more incompatible than Tyr and Tymora. I exaggerating a bit, since I think Helm and Tymora is even less believable.
Charles Phipps 01-31-08, 12:47 AM	I think Tymora would be horrified by Sune's suggestion and wonder what was going on. She might be amused by the gifts and the courting, but I really don't think she'd take it seriously at all. Then I think Tymora would not know Sune at all despite the fact she's practically lived with her for a few thousand years. Seriously, Sune is a match maker and if you're not in a relationship or love affair at the time then she WILL fix that. And the matches will often be awful because Sune isn't a goddess whose about perfect matches as Romeo and Juliet will show. What when how why who? You're not confusing Murdane with Tyche are you? (You wouldn't be the first - but how anyone can confuse the goddess of logic and reason with the goddess of luck, is really beyond me.) Helm and Tymora have never been lovers. You can retcon your own Realms to reflect that, but Tymora has never been Helm's lover, and she's not the sort to settle into any relationship long term (look at her on again/off again fling with Brandobaris). There's no EVIDENCE that they were lovers but the Gods have been around a very long time. A former relationship with Helm seems like it could be perfectly rational. No, however, it would just be one of Tymora's many relationships from the past. I don't think Sune would encourage love potions, because that causes a person to fall in love with someone else against their will. Anathema to a Chaotic Good deity. She does, however, have the Charm domain. Fundamentally, Sune is about encouraging new love or re-awakening old and the Potions will awaken the long dormant feelings inside Helm. Which is why I had them have a past affair in the first place. Frankly, Sune's place as Goddess of Love is the one to create the attractions and situations that all mortals have. Everytime ANYONE falls in love, it's because of Sune. Also, who says Tymora would be enthusiastic about Helm's advances? Especially since previously he showed no interest at all. She'd have to sense something was up, and even if she didn't, Sune would. Well, they had a great affair in the past.... The story is building off itself, Storm. What did Helm lie about? The fact that he was not courting Tymora. Now we're talking Cyric-Almighty again. How could he do that without Tyr noticing something is amiss? How is it that Cyric has unrestricted access to every deity's Realm? Surely if that were really the case, we'd have a few more dead lesser gods on our hands by now. Cyric is the God of Illusions, Intrigue, and Lies. Mystra has absolute control over the magic of every deity. It is literally impossible for Mask to be unable to steal anything, no matter how well-guarded or what security you may have. Tyr is unable to make a bad judgement unless confronted with an equally irresitable force. By the way, I said that you couldn't find a couple more incompatible than Tyr and Tymora. I exaggerating a bit, since I think Helm and Tymora is even less believable. A god of Protection and Guardianship is less compatible with a Goddess of Luck and who she favors? :uh-huh:
Reneshat 01-31-08, 01:00 AM	Okay, can anyone come up with a single deity involved in this affair that specifically did not act AGAINST their own portfolio? Other than Cyric I mean. I think everyone broke their portfolio in this thing. Even if the Helm one is a bit of a stretch....
Storm_Silverhand 01-31-08, 03:15 AM	Heya, Then I think Tymora would not know Sune at all despite the fact she's practically lived with her for a few thousand years. Seriously, Sune is a match maker and if you're not in a relationship or love affair at the time then she WILL fix that. Yes, but logic dictates she'll find someone who is a good match, and she won't be motivated by politics as she is said to be in this debacle. (That's in canon, of course.) Tymora would also know that Sune wouldn't insist or force her into the marriage. A simple "no" would suffice, and Sune would start looking elsewhere (she's even flightier than Tymora, you know). She wouldn't force Tymora into anything, because she knows well the consequences. (Hmm... Luck and Love are a natural match themselves, now I think about it...) And the matches will often be awful because Sune isn't a goddess whose about perfect matches as Romeo and Juliet will show. :rolleyes: Uh huh. Right. So Sune engineers matches that result in double suicides all the time.... I don't think she's that cruel... (She is Good, after all.) I still don't think she'd use anything as mundane (excuse the term) as a love potion (leave that to her mortal followers, Sune needs no such things to spark love), and certainly wouldn't leave one lying around so Cyric could find it. There's no EVIDENCE that they were lovers but the Gods have been around a very long time. A former relationship with Helm seems like it could be perfectly rational. No, however, it would just be one of Tymora's many relationships from the past. Yeah yeah, I know... absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Tymora is known for her dalliances (though she's nowhere near as bad as say, Sharess), so any deity dallying with her knows that it will be short lived. The idea that she was involved for a long time (which is actually what you implied) is just... well, it doesn't work unless it was on again/off again like her relationship with Brandobaris. (Tymora has only been around since the Dawn Cataclysm, by the way.) She does, however, have the Charm domain. Fundamentally, Sune is about encouraging new love or re-awakening old and the Potions will awaken the long dormant feelings inside Helm. Which is why I had them have a past affair in the first place. Frankly, Sune's place as Goddess of Love is the one to create the attractions and situations that all mortals have. Everytime ANYONE falls in love, it's because of Sune. Well, yes. But Sune doesn't come up to them and say "Well Jo, here's Robin, you're going to fall in love with Robin whether you like it or not! And don't mind Robin's family, who are likely to come after you, and make both your lives miserable." Sorry, I really am not a fan of star crossed lovers (which is why the sarcasm), because those kinds of relationships seem to invariably lead to disaster and unhappy endings. Sune is not about unhappy endings, no matter how realistic everyone seems to think they are. Well, they had a great affair in the past.... The story is building off itself, Storm. I think my major problem is, I don't like the plot it's all based on. I would rather see the plot completely disappear. IMHO, there's nothing that could make that schlock work. The fact that he was not courting Tymora. Did Tyr ask him directly? If not, then how could Helm have been lying? I don't think Helm would have hidden his feelings, and if it were true that he had been in love with Tymora at some point in the past (and especially if those feelings had begun to resurface), don't you think Helm would have refused to act as a go between? Cyric is the God of Illusions, Intrigue, and Lies. Mystra has absolute control over the magic of every deity. It is literally impossible for Mask to be unable to steal anything, no matter how well-guarded or what security you may have. Tyr is unable to make a bad judgement unless confronted with an equally irresitable force. If it comes down to DvR - Tyr is DvR 18, Cyric is only DvR 17. Tyr should trump him. I know, it's only a difference of 1, but it's a difference. There has to be some method by which we can judge these things, otherwise what is the point? Cyric should be the most powerful deity around since no one could ever hope to not be deceived by him. A god of Protection and Guardianship is less compatible with a Goddess of Luck and who she favors? :uh-huh: The Portfolios are compatible, but the alignments are not, and the personalities are not - IMHO.
Uzzy 01-31-08, 03:23 AM	Okay, can anyone come up with a single deity involved in this affair that specifically did not act AGAINST their own portfolio? Other than Cyric I mean. I think everyone broke their portfolio in this thing. Cyric has the portfolio of incompetence though, which he clearly acted against in this whole mess.
Charles Phipps 01-31-08, 03:50 AM	Siamorphe is, by the way, another example of "Christian" concepts making their way into the Realms via the back door. I enclose Christian in quote marks there because I am quite aware that there are other religions that have had the concept of Divine Right (such as the Emperor of Japan being a descendant of the gods, likewise the Egyptian Pharaohs, the Roman Emperors, and a variety of others), but Siamorphe herself is very specific it isn't funny (Her Holy Symbol is the Holy Grail fer the sake of the gods!). Also many concepts found within the Arthurian mythology have their origins in Celtic and other native religions of the United Kingdom - but when a person thinks of Arthur, they usually think of him in his modern interpretation - that of a Christian King. (I'm not making a judgment about whether or not this a good thing, mind you, just making an observation.) Yeah, it goes both ways. Arthur is a story that goes way back to Celtic Myth then got reinvisioned as a Christian Chivalric epic. Beowulf was a explicitly Christian story that was based around Nordic ideas (ie. like a VERY old Lord of the Rings) yet I've dealt with dozens of people who insist it was created around a non-existent Norse poem. Re: Siamorphe Funny, it's strange because I have the Triad as explictly an idealized and elements of it in Lathander's Church (a bizarre fusion of Apollo's faith with the New Testament Good News) but I absolutely depise Siamoprhe and keep wanting to make her Lawful Evil. It's why I created my "Fallen Angel" version of Xvim. http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14923528&postcount=2 But yes, I always couldn't help myself by making Siamorphe cause Tyr, Ilmater, and Torm grind their teeth. Siamorphe pretty much representing noble obligation and a condescending classism that just caused severe headaches for the Triad because all of them are about "Justice for All" that transcends boundaries despite their chivalric paraphenalia. Part of what I liked about the story was just the image of Tyr sitting down on his throne as Siamorphe said "I'm going to play in Sune's realm now. SHE appreciates nobility." Tyr would wait until she's out of earshot, look at Torm by his throne and say "OH THANK *AO* she's finally GONE." Torm's the god of Paladins. Paladins are inherently warriors, and they often times take the fight to Evil. Eldath teaches that you only raise your hand in defense, so you need to wait for Evil to actually threaten you before responding. Yes, though maybe I idealize Torm and Tyr a bit too much. They're just THAT nice underneath their bloody swords. Or maybe I just like the image of Eldath as Staff Chick ;-) I wonder who'd make a good replacement. Yes, but logic dictates she'll find someone who is a good match, and she won't be motivated by politics as she is said to be in this debacle. (That's in canon, of course.) I agree on that end, though I think she's happy to use Love as the Solution to Political Problems. Uh huh. Right. So Sune engineers matches that result in double suicides all the time.... I don't think she's that cruel... (She is Good, after all.) Well, if we were to assume that variations on Shakespeare's plays were occurring in the Forgotten Realms at all times, I tend to think that Sune would be responsible for most of them. However, Romeo and Juliet would be conspicous by it's failure as opposed to its success. Sune would definitely be responsible for the weird matches of a shipwreck resulting in Prospero's daughter marrying a handsome young prince, the crossdressing weirdness of 12th Night, four dueling lovers ending up together in A Midsummer Night's Dream by being lead into the Feywild, Portia marrying a suitor who she just happens is capable of saving the life of the mentor thereof, and so on. In Sune's draft of the script, I imagine R&J would have ended up bringing peace between their feuding families without dying at their own hands. Which is what makes it a Sune plan. I still don't think she'd use anything as mundane (excuse the term) as a love potion (leave that to her mortal followers, Sune needs no such things to spark love), and certainly wouldn't leave one lying around so Cyric could find it. True, I was going for homage and probably should have had Cyric come up with his own thing or perhaps something distilled from the pure essence of love. Or I can figure out another way to do the plot. Yeah yeah, I know... absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Tymora is known for her dalliances (though she's nowhere near as bad as say, Sharess), so any deity dallying with her knows that it will be short lived. The idea that she was involved for a long time (which is actually what you implied) is just... well, it doesn't work unless it was on again/off again like her relationship with Brandobaris. (Tymora has only been around since the Dawn Cataclysm, by the way.) Well lengthy by mortal standards, maybe 75 years or so. Helm doesn't get much in the way of action and it was probably close after Murdane's loss that he still remembered it fondly. I guess I think I see that Helm isn't a hardass 24/7. When he's doing his duty, he'll kill his own lover (See Mystra II) which was canonical. However, normally he's quite a teddy bear. Well, yes. But Sune doesn't come up to them and say "Well Jo, here's Robin, you're going to fall in love with Robin whether you like it or not! And don't mind Robin's family, who are likely to come after you, and make both your lives miserable." I think Storm's favorite book would be Cinderella. I think she loves love stories that accomplish three things. 1. Show that love knows no race, nationality, gender, or finacial situation 2. Show that love conquers all. 3. Show that love makes the world a better place for those around it. If Sune were to set up a romance with Torm and Red Knight, it would be to have the two unite against evils of the world. Sune's clergy are, inbetween hedonistic binges, mostly made to try and resolve disputes and make sure love happens irregardless. Shar's the girl who sabotages romances and makes them impossible. Did Tyr ask him directly? If not, then how could Helm have been lying? I don't think Helm would have hidden his feelings, and if it were true that he had been in love with Tymora at some point in the past (and especially if those feelings had begun to resurface), don't you think Helm would have refused to act as a go between? Yes, basically it became Tyr's Seraph's (Cyric) Word against Helms. So it is tough to pass though. Still, I want to keep the story in some form primarily because I love chivalric romances and the tragedies thereof. I know, it's only a difference of 1, but it's a difference. There has to be some method by which we can judge these things, otherwise what is the point? Cyric should be the most powerful deity around since no one could ever hope to not be deceived by him. I confess, my method might be stupid but I always liked the fact that Torm would instantly see through anything Cyric has because he's the God of Truth and thus lies really can't fool him even though Cyric is a higher DR.
SolDragon 01-31-08, 04:13 AM	I will concur that the marriage was political. I will not concur that it was loveless. The fact that a marriage is convient and practical for political purposes does not negate that the possibility that true affection and love can develop between the two parties, particularly when the Goddess Of Love herself is involved with the matchmaking. The fact that Tyr and Tymora are so different from each other is all the more reason a wild romantic idealist would favor the relationship, partly because of its improbability. Love conquers all, as the expression goes, and that is no doubt what Sune was aiming for when she proposed the idea. The fact that Tymora does leave with Tyr after the duel suggests that more than simple duty and obligation bound her to him. She was clearly sad and hurt about Helms death, yet still followed Tyr. Really, I think the largest problem everyone is having with this, is a lack of exposition. We really need more details than a few sentences at the end of GHotR, but until then, I will assume the story has the depth and intricacy that I want it to. It makes far more sense to do this, as it can logically be explained and worked out, and adds to the story of the Realms instead of detracting from it. If done correctly, it makes for a moving and epic story of friendship betrayed, hearts broken, a god slain, and evil triumphant in the shadows.
msatran 01-31-08, 04:59 AM	The problem is, in the past, the Gods of the Realms have not been retards. Now, they're acting like morons.
The_Shaman 01-31-08, 07:07 AM	To the Even-Handed. May he rest in peace, and be remembered for ages for all the good he wrought upon the Realms.
Kenzuki 01-31-08, 07:09 AM	They sensed the hand of Cyric......and you didn't post the rest of the quote. It says that no one could prove it! Cyric could be *GASP* Innocent in this instance. Completely innocent even. Could it be that Tyr just was an a-hole?
Storm_Silverhand 01-31-08, 08:02 AM	Heya, Re: Siamorphe Funny, it's strange because I have the Triad as explictly an idealized and elements of it in Lathander's Church (a bizarre fusion of Apollo's faith with the New Testament Good News) but I absolutely depise Siamoprhe and keep wanting to make her Lawful Evil. Despite the strong Christian symbolism around her, I've always liked Siamorphe. Part of it is her background (that she is only the current in a long line of Siamorphes, with the previous Siamorphe being male - which shows a non-patriarchal line of succession, Cormyr should take heed!), but I couldn't explain the rest... But yes, I always couldn't help myself by making Siamorphe cause Tyr, Ilmater, and Torm grind their teeth. Siamorphe pretty much representing noble obligation and a condescending classism that just caused severe headaches for the Triad because all of them are about "Justice for All" that transcends boundaries despite their chivalric paraphenalia. Well that kind of impression is something you've read into it. Siamorphe would not hesitate to tear down a noble family that has become corrupt, or has forgotten it's obligation to those it rules. But she's not a very powerful deity, and not all nobles worship her... She has to work carefully. I wonder if Siamorphe is influencing Azoun V, by the way, especially with his first move when he assumed the throne in Cormyr. Part of what I liked about the story was just the image of Tyr sitting down on his throne as Siamorphe said "I'm going to play in Sune's realm now. SHE appreciates nobility." Tyr would wait until she's out of earshot, look at Torm by his throne and say "OH THANK *AO* she's finally GONE." *wince* Sorry, that just hit a raw spot... So I won't say any more. Yes, though maybe I idealize Torm and Tyr a bit too much. They're just THAT nice underneath their bloody swords. Or maybe I just like the image of Eldath as Staff Chick ;-) I wonder who'd make a good replacement. I think sometimes Tyr is mis-characterized. I always imagine him as being unfailingly fair and kind, though a fierce opponent of Evil, but he's never portrayed that way. As for Torm, I don't really know him that well. I agree on that end, though I think she's happy to use Love as the Solution to Political Problems. Perhaps. But we aren't talking about her using Love to that end. The way it seems from what was in TGHotR, it was "Political problem... Oh, I know, lets arrange a marriage... and Love? Well Love might come later..." Chaotic she might be, but surely she could see that Tyr and Tymora aren't all that compatible? Well, if we were to assume that variations on Shakespeare's plays were occurring in the Forgotten Realms at all times, I tend to think that Sune would be responsible for most of them. However, Romeo and Juliet would be conspicous by it's failure as opposed to its success. Sune would definitely be responsible for the weird matches of a shipwreck resulting in Prospero's daughter marrying a handsome young prince, the crossdressing weirdness of 12th Night, four dueling lovers ending up together in A Midsummer Night's Dream by being lead into the Feywild, Portia marrying a suitor who she just happens is capable of saving the life of the mentor thereof, and so on. In Sune's draft of the script, I imagine R&J would have ended up bringing peace between their feuding families without dying at their own hands. Which is what makes it a Sune plan. Of course it would. But the only example you offered, that I responded to, was Romeo and Juliet. And no, Tyr and Tymora aren't Romeo and Juliet. True, I was going for homage and probably should have had Cyric come up with his own thing or perhaps something distilled from the pure essence of love. Or I can figure out another way to do the plot. So now he has power over love too? I'd imagine if he tried that, Sune would know about it (he can't hide love from her, can he?). I also think that Cyric would corrupt it to the point where it wouldn't work, or... Would do something like Helm attacks Tyr in a rage, because it is Tyr who is to marry Tymora not Helm... If that makes sense? Well lengthy by mortal standards, maybe 75 years or so. Helm doesn't get much in the way of action and it was probably close after Murdane's loss that he still remembered it fondly. I guess I think I see that Helm isn't a hardass 24/7. Helm doesn't strike me as the sort to do anything on the Rebound. When he's doing his duty, he'll kill his own lover (See Mystra II) which was canonical. However, normally he's quite a teddy bear. As far as I can remember, I think the rumors of their (LN Mystra and Helm) relationship are canon, but not that it actually happened. ;) (However, having said that, I could see it happening - they're both guardians in their own way, and both LN. It would have been a match made in heaven... ahem.) What the heck is the fascination of paring up old hair guys with young nubile gals? :rolleyes: Don't gals have any sense of beauty/aesthetics in the Realms? I think Storm's favorite book would be Cinderella. I think she loves love stories that accomplish three things. 1. Show that love knows no race, nationality, gender, or finacial situation 2. Show that love conquers all. 3. Show that love makes the world a better place for those around it. You've pegged me spot on, except for one thing... I can't stand Cinderella (and I don't have a favorite book). One of the quotes I had in my Zandilar sig was "amor vincit omnia"... the other being "audaces fortuna iuvat" - so you can see why I'm quite as invested in this as I am. :P If Sune were to set up a romance with Torm and Red Knight, it would be to have the two unite against evils of the world. Sune's clergy are, inbetween hedonistic binges, mostly made to try and resolve disputes and make sure love happens irregardless. Shar's the girl who sabotages romances and makes them impossible. Pretty much agreed. Though I don't think Sune is as hedonistic as most people make her out to be - she appreciates beauty, art, love, and passion... I think people get too caught up on passion meaning sexual passion or romantic passion, when it really can encompass so many things - people feel passionate about many things... (Mind you, I'm not saying she's not hedonistic, for Toril is a world where hedonism is a virtue just about, I'm just saying that she's not as hedonistic as Sharess, for example, or even Lliira.) I think of all the deities in the Realms, the one who is mis-characterized the worst is Sune. And that's why I think we'll see Sharess, and maybe Lliira, folded into her come 4th Edition, people can't seem to distinguish between them. Honestly, the differences aren't that subtle are they? Yes, basically it became Tyr's Seraph's (Cyric) Word against Helms. So it is tough to pass though. Still, I want to keep the story in some form primarily because I love chivalric romances and the tragedies thereof. Best thing to do then, is to change the deity in the middle (Tymora) to... someone else. But then the story doesn't work, since I can't think of any deity in Brightwater I'd cast in that role. The plot, by the way, is a bad soap opera. I can't see it being terribly chivalric, especially with the way Tyr behaves... And I just can't see Tymora going off to the House of the Triad with Tyr in the light of what happened. (She's completely the wrong alignment. The plot might work with a deity of NG or LG alignment, but not any deity as fickle as Tymora.) I confess, my method might be stupid but I always liked the fact that Torm would instantly see through anything Cyric has because he's the God of Truth and thus lies really can't fool him even though Cyric is a higher DR. Torm's the god of Truth? :confused: Torm's portfolio as per Faiths and Pantheons: Duty, loyalty, obedience, paladins. If you're going to go down that slippery slope - then Tyr wouldn't have killed Helm, because Cyric couldn't obscure Tyr's sense of Justice because Tyr's the god of Justice. Nor could Cyric and Shar have surprised Mystra, because she knows all there is to know about the Weave, and magic, and spells...
ikki 01-31-08, 08:36 AM	Do you have any source whatsoever to back this up? And if so, does this mean that a 3rd-level Fighter who's in the right will always win a Trial by Combat, even if it's against an 18th-level Fighter? It is a real world subject you know.,., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_by_combat Research it further if you like and you will find that trial by combat was considered as fair as any other method of determining who was right.. Possibly the most just, as god was overseeing it. And chance is always fickle in combat ;)
ikki 01-31-08, 08:42 AM	Funny, that's how Bane settles arguements too. He must be the most Just god out there! Ofcourse, you dont stay a Greater God of Law without upkeeping LAW. Goodness or evil is a wholly separate matter.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-31-08, 12:06 PM	Hey Charles, thank you for posting that answer from Ed.:)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-31-08, 01:08 PM	What the heck is the fascination of paring up old hair guys with young nubile gals? :rolleyes: Don't gals have any sense of beauty/aesthetics in the Realms? If you're talking about Helm and Mystra, well, I've always figured Helm would be on the handsome side. And no more "old" than Mystra would be. *shrug* Also, I think their romantic relationship was confirmed as far as any godly relationships could be. The Helm's Tear artifact in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical apparently came from the tear Helm shed as he killed the old Mystra. I haven't looked at that entry in a while, though.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-31-08, 01:13 PM	It is a real world subject you know.,., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_by_combat Research it further if you like and you will find that trial by combat was considered as fair as any other method of determining who was right.. But that doesn't necessarily apply in the Realms. See Charles's post at the end of the previous page. Heck, according to the Wikipedia page you linked, trial-by-combat wasn't even that widespread in the real world.
Keryth 01-31-08, 02:49 PM	I will miss Tyr. For myself, my fellow gamers, and the memebers of the Brotherhood of Redemption/Fellowship of Storms, I raise my galss to Tyr! (For explaination, the Brotherhood/Fellowship was the name of the adventuring group in my 3yr long FR campaign, founded by a Paladin of Tyr, and his companions, which always had 1 Paladin of Tyr present as a PC in it. The name was changed to Fellowship of Storms by the players midcampaign, and is now the name of our guild on WoW and Hellgate in honor of those good times)
Charles Phipps 01-31-08, 03:39 PM	A fun Ed reply... Hello, all. I had a chance to chat briefly on the phone with Ed last night (horrible ice storm and windstorm pounding his neck of the woods), and he indicated his responses to this, from Charles Phipps: "Hey Ed, are the Triad worshiped more like their own separate pantheon and/or as a single religion or do people tend to worship the gods separately but allied? Also, just as a purely fun question, are Tyrites and the like more conservative regarding the bedroom than average Faeruners?" Here's my paraphrase of Ed's reply: Most people tend to worship the deities separately, but consider them (and their priests) as allies, and turn to such allies when in need. Some priests (of these deities) point to the common beliefs and tenets among the Triad as proof that these faiths are "right" or "more correct than others," but worship is always considered to be best done on a personal, specific basis; unless you are desperate and calling out to "whatever gods there be!" for aid, worship "counts" most when it's directed at a specific deity. As for your purely fun question: any answer will of course be a gross generalization. Ed believes a desire for privacy (as opposed to exhibitionism or public displays of affection) will be strong, as will a tendency towards discipline (though this may in individual cases manifest as self-control of one's body rather than necessarily binding, flogging, or physically dominating others). Ed wouldn't go farther than that, saying: Human nature responds to restrictions by flouting them, so what goes on in bedchambers of rule-followers may surprise others.
Storm_Silverhand 01-31-08, 05:02 PM	Heya, If you're talking about Helm and Mystra, well, I've always figured Helm would be on the handsome side. And no more "old" than Mystra would be. *shrug* Well, we don't know what he looks like. For all we know, he could just be an empty suit of full plate. :P There is a description of him in Prince of Lies, but he was looking at himself in a piece of Kelemvor's "Mirror of Truth" (as I like to call it) - I think he saw himself as a grizzled and sad old man, who looked like he carried the weight of the world around on his shoulders. Also, I think their romantic relationship was confirmed as far as any godly relationships could be. The Helm's Tear artifact in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical apparently came from the tear Helm shed as he killed the old Mystra. I haven't looked at that entry in a while, though. Well there you go. :) It's now official... LN Mystra had bad taste in men. ;) :P :D Can you tell I don't like Helm much?
Kenzuki 01-31-08, 06:15 PM	I always pictured Helm as being an empty suit of armor myself too hehe. As for LN Mystra having bad taste in men. She did take Elminster as a lover.....bleck. Let's talk about the hypocrisy of Tyr! He judges Helm to be unjust in regardes to Tymora when he has no evidence of it and kills him in combat. He THEN turns around and has the audacity of putting Cyric in prison for a thousand years for doing what his portfolio demands. Tyr is a Hypocrite!
GreenKnight 01-31-08, 06:40 PM	Okay, can anyone come up with a single deity involved in this affair that specifically did not act AGAINST their own portfolio? The only one I can think of is Helm. He did his job, kept an eye on things like Tyr asked him, too, and got killed for his troubles. Poor bastard. :( It is a real world subject you know.,., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_by_combat Research it further if you like and you will find that trial by combat was considered as fair as any other method of determining who was right.. Possibly the most just, as god was overseeing it. And chance is always fickle in combat ;) A couple things. First off, we're talking about Faerun, not Germany. Second of all, God didn't actually decide Trial By Combats. And if He did, that doesn't mean He's doing it in Faerun, and there certainly isn't any Realms book that says so. Third, no amount of fickleness on the part of fate can help a 3rd-level Fighter win a fight against an 18th-level Fighter, no matter how in the right he may be. Last but not least, this was the same time period in which the water test was used on accused witches. They got tied to a stone and chucked into a lake. If they floated to the top, they were a witch and burned to death. If they drowned they were innocent. So it's not as if people from the 17th Century had a lock on foolproof judicial proceedures. However fair people back then may have thought Trial By Combat was, the simple fact is it isn't. Not in the real world, and certainly not in the Realms.
Charles Phipps 01-31-08, 06:43 PM	Despite the strong Christian symbolism around her, I've always liked Siamorphe. Part of it is her background (that she is only the current in a long line of Siamorphes, with the previous Siamorphe being male - which shows a non-patriarchal line of succession, Cormyr should take heed!), but I couldn't explain the rest... For me, I never quite liked Siamorphe because she felt like a throw back to an Age that the Realms gods for the most part transcend. Tyr, Torm, and Ilmater are very likely to support a peasant overthrowing an evil noble while....well, Siamoprhe thinks abusing peasants is bad but he IS the Duke. Plus, the Christian symbolism for a deity of LN Divine Right offends me on a visceral religious level. Sort of like why I rolled my eyes at Zarus. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a (Scroll down and you'll see Zarus' entry) Oh yes, real :censored: original there guys. Oddly, I have used Zarus' in my game as an attempt by Xvim to subvert the faiths of Lathander. Well that kind of impression is something you've read into it. Siamorphe would not hesitate to tear down a noble family that has become corrupt, or has forgotten it's obligation to those it rules. But she's not a very powerful deity, and not all nobles worship her... She has to work carefully. I tend to think of Siamorphe as Queen Victoria actually. She's definitely against corruption, don't get me wrong. Corruption and Tyranny are not her bags at all, don't get me wrong. However, I think she represents a very outdated idea of Imperialism and Rulership by Birthright that rubs me the wrong way. Then again, I love Lliira as the Goddess of Freedom from oppressive nobility! ;-) *wince* Sorry, that just hit a raw spot... So I won't say any more. Errr, sorry if I brought up some painful memory there. I guess I'd prefer to see the House of the Triad filled with some more Lawful Good female deities and ones that aren't associated with such a painfully ugly period of human history. A part of me keeps thinking Siamorphe is the god of feudalism more than nobility. And that's wrong of me, I know. I think sometimes Tyr is mis-characterized. I always imagine him as being unfailingly fair and kind, though a fierce opponent of Evil, but he's never portrayed that way. As for Torm, I don't really know him that well. Eh, to be fair, we rarely see him in canon. In Neverwinter Nights, Tyr's faith is presented as THE force of good. But I do agree. And basically, I differentiate Torm and Tyr by analogue. Torm is Tyr's disciple and student. He's Luke Skywalker and Tyr is Obi Wan. I always figure that Torm is a bit more pro-active about hunting evil and more likely to screw up because he's seeking the PERFECT solution than the best. This is mostly just from my readings of him, however. So now he has power over love too? I'd imagine if he tried that, Sune would know about it (he can't hide love from her, can he?). I also think that Cyric would corrupt it to the point where it wouldn't work, or... Would do something like Helm attacks Tyr in a rage, because it is Tyr who is to marry Tymora not Helm... If that makes sense? Any Deity can make a magic spell, Storm. But yes, I basically want a symbolic myth where both Helm and Tyr are innocent. There's a certain amount of tragedy in the story where Tyr ends up killing his best friend but its accidental. Likewise, Helm is lead to betray Tyr in his heart because he's loyal to Tyr but in love. Something that preserves the dignity of both men. Also, Tymora, whom I see as only jesting and playing around with both men as she's want to do and would never consider herself a prize to be one. What the heck is the fascination of paring up old hair guys with young nubile gals? Don't gals have any sense of beauty/aesthetics in the Realms? I always put Helm in his mid-thirties. Tyr and Azuth are the "Old White Bearded Guys." But yes, I tend to think the 'Best Looking Male Deities' go like this. 1. Lathander (he IS the God of Male Beauty in my games)/Corellon (whose elvish perfection personified) 2. Torm (whose unaware he's that attractive) 3. Milil 4. Mask (though you'll never see his true face---which is Drow in my games, anyway) 5. Xvim (though that's my games) Kelemvor is up there but it seems disingenous to make Death one of the most handsome divinities in the Realms. You've pegged me spot on, except for one thing... I can't stand Cinderella (and I don't have a favorite book). One of the quotes I had in my Zandilar sig was "amor vincit omnia"... the other being "audaces fortuna iuvat" - so you can see why I'm quite as invested in this as I am. *clap clap clap* Very true, and wow, I forgot you were Zandilar. You're two of my favorite posters. Pretty much agreed. Though I don't think Sune is as hedonistic as most people make her out to be - she appreciates beauty, art, love, and passion... I think people get too caught up on passion meaning sexual passion or romantic passion, when it really can encompass so many things - people feel passionate about many things... (Mind you, I'm not saying she's not hedonistic, for Toril is a world where hedonism is a virtue just about, I'm just saying that she's not as hedonistic as Sharess, for example, or even Lliira.) Ugh, Sharess and Lliira as one would suck. And no, I actually place Sune as one of the wisest of the goddesses despite her odd moments of chaos and vapidity. She's also the god of agape as much as Eros, she just rarely gets the credit for that. Torm's portfolio as per Faiths and Pantheons: Duty, loyalty, obedience, paladins. Which shows my silliness for relying on the Realms Wikipedia. If you're going to go down that slippery slope - then Tyr wouldn't have killed Helm, because Cyric couldn't obscure Tyr's sense of Justice because Tyr's the god of Justice. Nor could Cyric and Shar have surprised Mystra, because she knows all there is to know about the Weave, and magic, and spells... True, which doesn't mean the story isn't possible, but it would be very difficult to handle my "Deities have absolute control over their portfolios" take in any reasonable fashion.
Kenzuki 01-31-08, 08:56 PM	I don't think that's true in regardes to a deity having absolute control over their portfolios. Or else explain to me how Cyric could have out intrigued the former God of Intrigue, and THEN take Intrigue for his own?
Charles Phipps 02-01-08, 01:33 PM	Oh, I came up with my solution to the Tyr bit for my games. http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14982682&postcount=45 It's at the bottom.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 02:27 PM	Can you tell I don't like Helm much? Yes. :-p As you can tell, I quite like him.
Storm_Silverhand 02-01-08, 06:56 PM	Heya, For me, I never quite liked Siamorphe because she felt like a throw back to an Age that the Realms gods for the most part transcend. Tyr, Torm, and Ilmater are very likely to support a peasant overthrowing an evil noble while....well, Siamoprhe thinks abusing peasants is bad but he IS the Duke. Plus, the Christian symbolism for a deity of LN Divine Right offends me on a visceral religious level. Sort of like why I rolled my eyes at Zarus. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a (Scroll down and you'll see Zarus' entry) Oh yes, real :censored: original there guys. Oddly, I have used Zarus' in my game as an attempt by Xvim to subvert the faiths of Lathander. Well, I think there's quite a difference between Zarus and Siamorphe. Siamorphe is the goddess of human royalty, plain and simple, while Zarus is Hitler (or any Racial Supremacist) given god form. I really don't like him for much the same reasons I don't like Sheverash (who embodies Racism against Drow). Siamorphe is the idealized noble - the one who cares for her people, and rules with a fair hand. I wouldn't be at all surprised if she is the one behind Azoun V's move towards a constitutional monarchy (except, of course, by 4th Ed who knows what will become of her)... Sometimes giving the commoners a voice is the best thing for everyone - nobles and commoners alike. Also, in supporting Zaranda Star in Tethyr, she shows her support for people who come into nobility through their actions. (Yes, I know she was already a noble, but I seem to remember that she came into that nobility due to her actions, not because of birth - someone'll correct me if I'm wrong, but this possibly wrong idea has coloured my perceptions of Siamorphe.) Siamorphe would probably advocate for the Tyrant Evil Duke's Just and Fair Youngest Son to succeed him when it came down to it. Her dogma would demand it, in fact - because Tyrant Evil Duke has obviously forgotten his moral obligations to his people. (First line of her dogma: Nobles are the rightful rulers of the bulk of humankind provided that they keep fit for the task and responsibilities of rule.) You seem to have her pegged as Bane lite, but that's really not the case. I agree with you on the annoyance factor of the Christian symbolism. I tend to think of Siamorphe as Queen Victoria actually. She's definitely against corruption, don't get me wrong. Corruption and Tyranny are not her bags at all, don't get me wrong. However, I think she represents a very outdated idea of Imperialism and Rulership by Birthright that rubs me the wrong way. Then again, I love Lliira as the Goddess of Freedom from oppressive nobility! "Nobles have the moral obligation to rule in the best manner possible for the people who serve under them even if their obligations conflict with their personal desires." Who's oppressed? The main theme behind Siamorphe is that "With great power comes great responsibility." The nobles don't get off lightly, and, in fact, they're the ones who are most constrained by their positions. Siamorphe would rather see every ruler an Azoun, a Piergieron, or a Nasher, rather than a Fzoul, or the Zulkiers of Thay. I like Lliira too. :) Errr, sorry if I brought up some painful memory there. Well I had to stop myself from going off on an angry rant because of the blatant stereotyping, basically. I guess I'd prefer to see the House of the Triad filled with some more Lawful Good female deities and ones that aren't associated with such a painfully ugly period of human history. A part of me keeps thinking Siamorphe is the god of feudalism more than nobility. And that's wrong of me, I know. Well I would too... but I don't think we have any LG female deities at all... (I'd have to go check... hmm... well I suppose I have time this morning... *goes off to check*) From the Faerunian pantheon (Subtracting Eilistraee and Lolth who both appear in the Major deities section, but are not really a part of the Faerunian pantheon) we get... LG = 0, NG = 5, CG = 6 LN = 2, TN = 2, CN = 0 LE = 2, NE = 2, CE = 3. (Total female deities: 22) 4 Lawful, 9 Neutral, 10 Chaotic 11 Good, 4 Neutral, 7 Evil There is an overwhelming tendency of female deities to be Good aligned, and a slight tendency towards Chaos. Overall, the tendency is towards Chaotic Good specifically. Outside of the Faerunian pantheon, the only LG female deities to be found are in the Halfling Pantheon (Avoreen, Cyrrollalee, and Yondalla), but the tendency towards CG is still carried as a good number of female deities are CG (For example, the female dwarven deity Haela, and all the female elven deities are CG.) Eh, to be fair, we rarely see him in canon. In Neverwinter Nights, Tyr's faith is presented as THE force of good. But I do agree. Tyr should have done more to save the citizens of Neverwinter - like letting the Tyrian priests know that the Helm priests weren't what they seemed. Simple things like that. (Yes, I'm still sore at what happened to Aribeth, and that no matter what you did you still couldn't save her (as she ends up in Hell in HotU, even if you managed to redeem her in the OC).) And basically, I differentiate Torm and Tyr by analogue. Torm is Tyr's disciple and student. He's Luke Skywalker and Tyr is Obi Wan. I always figure that Torm is a bit more pro-active about hunting evil and more likely to screw up because he's seeking the PERFECT solution than the best. This is mostly just from my readings of him, however. That makes sense. :) And it's better than looking at Tyr as the father, and Torm as the son... :P Any Deity can make a magic spell, Storm. But yes, I basically want a symbolic myth where both Helm and Tyr are innocent. There's a certain amount of tragedy in the story where Tyr ends up killing his best friend but its accidental. Likewise, Helm is lead to betray Tyr in his heart because he's loyal to Tyr but in love. Yes, they can... And Mystra knows it when they do. :P It would take a very powerful spell indeed to effect a divinity, and Cyric coming up with an enchantment spell - specifically a love spell (because it certianly wouldn't be illusion, which he might have a chance of getting past her) would set off all kinds of alarm bells for Mystra, knowing the intended target is a deity. As far as I'm concerned, both Tyr and Helm are innocent. Tyr acting out of character the way he did is proof positive that something else was up, IMHO (and I still don't think he actually intended to kill Helm in the duel either). I just don't like Cyric being able to get away with so much, when he clearly shouldn't. Cyric isn't as powerful as Tyr, so pulling the wool over the blind god's eyes wouldn't be easy. Something that preserves the dignity of both men. Also, Tymora, whom I see as only jesting and playing around with both men as she's want to do and would never consider herself a prize to be one. As soon as they started to fight, I'd see her walking away from the whole situation. Returning to Brightwater to give Sune a piece of her mind, probably. :) I always put Helm in his mid-thirties. Tyr and Azuth are the "Old White Bearded Guys." But yes, I tend to think the 'Best Looking Male Deities' go like this. 1. Lathander (he IS the God of Male Beauty in my games)/Corellon (whose elvish perfection personified) 2. Torm (whose unaware he's that attractive) 3. Milil 4. Mask (though you'll never see his true face---which is Drow in my games, anyway) 5. Xvim (though that's my games) Kelemvor is up there but it seems disingenous to make Death one of the most handsome divinities in the Realms. Meh. I don't have much of an opinion beyond agreeing that Lathander is probably the best looking male deity for his masculinity (he is the god of athletics, after all), and Corellon is best looking because he's androgynous and isn't necessarily always male (so that wins him points). As for Helm, there's a good description of him in Prince of Lies, and he's an old man... That could just be because of how he was seeing himself at the time - but Kelemvor's mirror reflects the true person, not the form they're wearing... So in truth, Helm is an old man. :) *clap clap clap* Very true, and wow, I forgot you were Zandilar. You're two of my favorite posters. :embarrass thanks. :blush: Ugh, Sharess and Lliira as one would suck. I agree... but I can see how someone might think they could be one and the same deity. And no, I actually place Sune as one of the wisest of the goddesses despite her odd moments of chaos and vapidity. She's also the god of agape as much as Eros, she just rarely gets the credit for that. I toyed with the idea of changing Sune a little, emphasizing the Love and Passion aspects of her portfolio over the Beauty aspect. Changing her alignment to NG, making her avatar beautiful, but not the burning beauty she is, and having her be less vain and flighty... A change that would have been happening over centuries, but only manifested in full after she saved Sharess during the Time of Troubles. I always disliked the part of her dogma that implies that people who are beautiful on the inside are necessarily beautiful on the outside. My experience of life has shown that the most beautiful people are quite often not the best looking - which is at odds with that. Which shows my silliness for relying on the Realms Wikipedia. Yes, in my experience, the standard Wikipedia is better for Realms information than the Realms Wikia. Which is rather strange, I think. Someone really needs to get in there and do a good check and edit. True, which doesn't mean the story isn't possible, but it would be very difficult to handle my "Deities have absolute control over their portfolios" take in any reasonable fashion. Yes. Some authors have a tendency to ignore anything that gets in the way of their plot, but IMHO that isn't a good policy.
Charles Phipps 02-01-08, 07:56 PM	Well, I think there's quite a difference between Zarus and Siamorphe. Siamorphe is the goddess of human royalty, plain and simple, while Zarus is Hitler (or any Racial Supremacist) given god form. I really don't like him for much the same reasons I don't like Sheverash (who embodies Racism against Drow). Actually, my distaste for Zarus is the fact that he's very strongly a twisted version of Adam. The only difference would be that "God"'s place is pretty much taken by Gaia/Chauntaea in this version of the legend. I despise this trope (I'm teasing you with this site at this point) Humans are b****** (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreBastards) Siamorphe is the idealized noble - the one who cares for her people, and rules with a fair hand. I wouldn't be at all surprised if she is the one behind Azoun V's move towards a constitutional monarchy (except, of course, by 4th Ed who knows what will become of her)... Sometimes giving the commoners a voice is the best thing for everyone - nobles and commoners alike. Yep, absolutely. (expects Storm Silverhand's reaction to be :uh-huh:) I disagree with your depiction of Azoun V's role as a Constitutional Monarchy, however, because fundamentally that's only going to invite more corruption. But yes, Siamorphe's ideal is the perfect Chivalric state where nobles are clean and perfect with a grateful peasantry waving to their generous and wise masters. Like Helm or Kelemvor and Deneir (I debate including Oghma), Siamorphe is primarilly a force for good in the Forgotten Realms despite her neutrality. I do, however, think its important to remember why and where she's a Lawful Neutral deity rather than a Lawful Good one. Helm would be the perfect Lawful Good deity were he not a fanatic about it. So, it's important to always remember where the Good Ends and the Neutrality begins. You seem to have her pegged as Bane lite, but that's really not the case. Actually, I had a Paladin of Siamorphe once (I later adapted him for an Eberron game). The character was an interesting role to play because he daily struggled with the impossible standards set before him to BE noble. The character thus trained himself to ridiculous lengths and angsted uproariously about being better than the average person because it was his DUTY to be as their leader. One player described "Everyone wants a absolute dictator like him. Unfortunately, it's the next guy I'm worried about." [The conceit was---we so often have nobility who are arrogant about their superiority, what would it be like to have one who tried to work 300% as hard to show the world that nobility really WAS the best form of government by making up for everyone else's failings] So my experiences with the ironic undercurrent of the character may be clouding my personal judgement. Who's oppressed? The main theme behind Siamorphe is that "With great power comes great responsibility." The nobles don't get off lightly, and, in fact, they're the ones who are most constrained by their positions. Siamorphe would rather see every ruler an Azoun, a Piergieron, or a Nasher, rather than a Fzoul, or the Zulkiers of Thay. No disagreement there. I think my problem, Storm, is that I view Siamorphe's view as WRONG not malicious. I believe that Siamorphe is a great believer in Plato's Republic as the ideal model for society. One signature well-educated elite dictating down to an ignorant mass but happy mass for their own good. That doesn't undermine the sincerity of her works. However, Siamorphe is a prefer of Julius Caesar or more likely Augustus to a Consul System. Certainly, she would stand vigorously against Bane and his kind because they undermine the enlightened ruler. Bane's religion in my games is "Nobles do whatever they like and peasants say 'how high.'" with nobles being defined as Bane's appointed stooges. I think Siamorphe is pretty much very similiar to Faerun's Horus-Re in how she views things. There's a RIGHT way to handle things and if the populous is 90% slaves but they're well-fed, educated, and treated well then what's the problem? (Though Siamorphe is probably less radical because she comes from a tradition where slavery is explicitly bad where Horus seems to be using a different form of the word) Well I had to stop myself from going off on an angry rant because of the blatant stereotyping, basically. I can see how you missed it was a satirical joke because that's almost exactly how it happened in canon, except Tyr threw a hissy fit instead of accepting it was her decision and there was no "imbalance" created. There is an overwhelming tendency of female deities to be Good aligned, and a slight tendency towards Chaos. Overall, the tendency is towards Chaotic Good specifically. Huh, weird. Tyr should have done more to save the citizens of Neverwinter - like letting the Tyrian priests know that the Helm priests weren't what they seemed. Simple things like that. (Yes, I'm still sore at what happened to Aribeth, and that no matter what you did you still couldn't save her (as she ends up in Hell in HotU, even if you managed to redeem her in the OC).) It's the only problem of divination spells. No one should be able to get away with anything on Faerun if the gods warned their clergies about all the nasty nasty nasty evil being done covertly. Also, I feel the same way about Aribeth, though I bluntly had this reaction when playing Neverwinter Nights. "Uhhh, girl, they're not going to pardon you. Where's the 'Let's Run Away together' option"? I honestly Hand-Waved that the Deities in the Realms aren't omniscient but get all their info from angels researching. It doesn't really work but it helps. That makes sense. And it's better than looking at Tyr as the father, and Torm as the son... I intended to sig the blessing, but it seemed inappropriate for the forums who may dislike the religious issue behind it. "In the name of the Judge, the Knight, and the Holy Martyr." Tyr has a relationship with Torm but it's more Liege and Servant, Teacher to Student, and King to his Champion than Father to Son. As far as I'm concerned, both Tyr and Helm are innocent. Tyr acting out of character the way he did is proof positive that something else was up, IMHO (and I still don't think he actually intended to kill Helm in the duel either). I just don't like Cyric being able to get away with so much, when he clearly shouldn't. Cyric isn't as powerful as Tyr, so pulling the wool over the blind god's eyes wouldn't be easy. Agreed. I always disliked the part of her dogma that implies that people who are beautiful on the inside are necessarily beautiful on the outside. My experience of life has shown that the most beautiful people are quite often not the best looking - which is at odds with that. Oddly, I have every deity in the Realms have one fatal flaw while every Evil Deity has one redeeming aspect. The only exceptions were Ghaundaur and Moander. Sune is obsessed with beauty even when it's unrelated to the soul (though I always liked the idea Sune could find beauty in a Mongrelman or Goblin) Tyr is rigid and unbending Torm is ridiculously idealistic Lathander hates evil with a burning passion that borders on hubris that the world could get along without its darker urges. Mask is a lovable rogue like Jarlaxle. Cyric has his moments of whimsy, fun, and fun Bane....err....well....Bane doesn't want to *destroy* the world! :)
msatran 02-01-08, 09:00 PM	I don't think Sune could find beauty in a mongrelman. :) On the other hand, if you're a mongrelman, you might have enough musical talent that Oghma, or especially Milil might have good reason to take you in.
Kenzuki 02-01-08, 09:18 PM	Tyr deserves whatever happens to him for what he did to Helm. He's a hypocrite.
Charles Phipps 02-01-08, 09:24 PM	Tyr deserves whatever happens to him for what he did to Helm. He's a hypocrite. Going to keep piping up with that or going to add anything new? (Yes, I'm still sore at what happened to Aribeth, and that no matter what you did you still couldn't save her (as she ends up in Hell in HotU, even if you managed to redeem her in the OC).) But I was always very fond of Aribeth, she was one of my favorite characters from D&D as a whole as much as Neverwinter Nights. For me, the tragedy of the character and their pulling no punches with her was something that worked well for me. Plus, I like the idea that she needs to the love the player character to pull her back from being Faithless and False.
Storm_Silverhand 02-02-08, 01:16 AM	Heya, But I was always very fond of Aribeth, she was one of my favorite characters from D&D as a whole as much as Neverwinter Nights. For me, the tragedy of the character and their pulling no punches with her was something that worked well for me. Plus, I like the idea that she needs to the love the player character to pull her back from being Faithless and False. I'll respond to your longer post a bit later (been out and am pretty tired right now), but I just wanted to say... Yes, I loved the idea that love could save her - as you can probably guess. I doctored the OC so my female PC (Mara Aseph) could romance Aribeth (it worked well too, because despite the fact that her romance was only supposed to be playable by male characters, they still used gender tokens in her lovetalks for the most part... Only once or twice would you get referred to as a he) - because I liked the idea so much! Anyway, where was I? Yes, well in the OC, the romance made it easier to save her - but it didn't matter if you did. Come HotU, you (as a new character) find Aribeth in Hell, and have to save her all over again. There were points where I was shaking my head, because if you want a plot hole, Aribeth being in Hell is it. If she's faithless and false, as is strongly implied, why isn't she in the Wall of the Faithless? I also wasn't too impressed by the idea that my new PC could romance her - what happened to the PC from the OC (HotU was a continuation of SoU, not the NWN OC)? Where were they? Mara would have moved Faerun and Celestia to save Aribeth, even resorting to breaking her out of gaol, in order to help her find atonement and her faith again... If anything, the fact that Aribeth is in Hell means that Mara is dead - because that's the only way things would pan out that way as far as I'm concerned.
Charles Phipps 02-02-08, 04:18 AM	Actually, Storm Silverhand, she'd be "False" because Aribeth's crimes were that she was untrue to Tyr and her allegiance to him (though what god she worshiped while serving the Serpent God is anyone's guess). Aribeth the Paladin was certainly a believer in Tyr, she just chose to betray him. I know its popular for everyone to be Faithless rather than False because the Faithless get their cool wall but there are other options. [Though I'm still annoyed I couldn't cut Bishop out of the Wall or destroy the Wall of the Faithless in Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer. I fully intended to blow the :censored: out of that thing and in my games, the REAL Kelemvor would have done it long ago or let him.] I also wasn't too impressed by the idea that my new PC could romance her - what happened to the PC from the OC (HotU was a continuation of SoU, not the NWN OC)? Where were they? Mara would have moved Faerun and Celestia to save Aribeth, even resorting to breaking her out of gaol, in order to help her find atonement and her faith again... If anything, the fact that Aribeth is in Hell means that Mara is dead - because that's the only way things would pan out that way as far as I'm concerned. Honestly, I'm not a great big fan of games where you change player characters. If I could, I'd mod the Baldur's Gate Series to somehow allow my player character to be the one in Nerverwinter Nights 1, the expansions, AND Neverwinter Nights 2. I'd call him.....Awesominster. :-) But yes, it only really makes sense with the original hero.
Storm_Silverhand 02-03-08, 03:39 AM	Heya, Actually, my distaste for Zarus is the fact that he's very strongly a twisted version of Adam. The only difference would be that "God"'s place is pretty much taken by Gaia/Chauntaea in this version of the legend. Hmm, I suppose it could be looked at like that. I despise this trope (I'm teasing you with this site at this point) Humans are b****** (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreBastards) :P It really is an interesting site, especially if you're interested in that sort of thing (as I am). Yep, absolutely. (expects Storm Silverhand's reaction to be :uh-huh:) Hmm... No, not really. :) I disagree with your depiction of Azoun V's role as a Constitutional Monarchy, however, because fundamentally that's only going to invite more corruption. But yes, Siamorphe's ideal is the perfect Chivalric state where nobles are clean and perfect with a grateful peasantry waving to their generous and wise masters. I have this feeling we're going to be butting heads about this to no gain. Siamorphe doesn't teach that commoners are inferior, but she does teach that some people are born to rule... And that they're born to bear the responsibilities that power brings. She doesn't say that nobles are superior, just that they have a particular role in society. She isn't against a commoner ascending to rule, because pretty much every noble line started that way. Like Helm or Kelemvor and Deneir (I debate including Oghma), Siamorphe is primarilly a force for good in the Forgotten Realms despite her neutrality. I do, however, think its important to remember why and where she's a Lawful Neutral deity rather than a Lawful Good one. Helm would be the perfect Lawful Good deity were he not a fanatic about it. So, it's important to always remember where the Good Ends and the Neutrality begins. LN is one alignment I've never been able to get my head around... Most LN entities would be Good (since their motives almost always are), except that they're willing to achieve these good ends by any means necessary (which kind of defeats the purpose of working towards a good end, IMHO). Actually, I had a Paladin of Siamorphe once (I later adapted him for an Eberron game). The character was an interesting role to play because he daily struggled with the impossible standards set before him to BE noble. The character thus trained himself to ridiculous lengths and angsted uproariously about being better than the average person because it was his DUTY to be as their leader. One player described "Everyone wants a absolute dictator like him. Unfortunately, it's the next guy I'm worried about." [The conceit was---we so often have nobility who are arrogant about their superiority, what would it be like to have one who tried to work 300% as hard to show the world that nobility really WAS the best form of government by making up for everyone else's failings] There are probably quite a few nobles who are like that, and probably an equal amount who are ruthless and will do anything to keep their title. Most nobles probably fall somewhere in the middle. So my experiences with the ironic undercurrent of the character may be clouding my personal judgement. That's understandable. We're all influenced by our own experiences. I think my problem, Storm, is that I view Siamorphe's view as WRONG not malicious. I believe that Siamorphe is a great believer in Plato's Republic as the ideal model for society. One signature well-educated elite dictating down to an ignorant mass but happy mass for their own good. Do you think she's WRONG simply because you aren't accustomed to the concept? We have very few monarchies left, and the nobility is not what it used to be, at least in the West. We are all raised pretty much in democracies, and with the idea that democracy is the best form of government, which means that any other form of government just doesn't look right to us. The thing to keep in mind is that there are no true Feudal societies in the Realms, not even Cormyr and Tethyr. As far as I know, the commoners are free men and women who work their own land, even if they do pay taxes to those who rule them. Or is this not the main problem you have? Feudalism is roughly a form of slavery. I can see how you missed it was a satirical joke because that's almost exactly how it happened in canon, except Tyr threw a hissy fit instead of accepting it was her decision and there was no "imbalance" created. Humor isn't always the same for everyone. I did catch the humor, but there was an undercurrent of stereotyping (yes, of the genders) that rubbed me up the wrong way. Huh, weird. I thought so too. I think it will be interesting to go back and take a look at the general alignment tendencies of male deities... but I don't have time right now to do that. :) It's the only problem of divination spells. No one should be able to get away with anything on Faerun if the gods warned their clergies about all the nasty nasty nasty evil being done covertly. Also, I feel the same way about Aribeth, though I bluntly had this reaction when playing Neverwinter Nights. "Uhhh, girl, they're not going to pardon you. Where's the 'Let's Run Away together' option"? I honestly Hand-Waved that the Deities in the Realms aren't omniscient but get all their info from angels researching. It doesn't really work but it helps. Well it wasn't Tyr so much as Helm I thought should have some reaction. Poor Helm lost an entire monastery dedicated to him! Surely he'd notice the loss of that many priests and pretty much all at once? Being an ally of Tyr the logical step would have been to have Tyr alert his champions in Neverwinter. The gods of Faerun send everyone dream visions and the like, why would they suddenly go silent when something's really gone wrong? I intended to sig the blessing, but it seemed inappropriate for the forums who may dislike the religious issue behind it. "In the name of the Judge, the Knight, and the Holy Martyr." It sounds very similar to another blessing, indeed, and enough that I'd feel uneasy contemplating it as something a Realmsian native would say - especially since the three gods are worshiped separately and not as the Triad. Oddly, I have every deity in the Realms have one fatal flaw while every Evil Deity has one redeeming aspect. The only exceptions were Ghaundaur and Moander. Sune is obsessed with beauty even when it's unrelated to the soul (though I always liked the idea Sune could find beauty in a Mongrelman or Goblin) Tyr is rigid and unbending Torm is ridiculously idealistic Lathander hates evil with a burning passion that borders on hubris that the world could get along without its darker urges. Mask is a lovable rogue like Jarlaxle. Cyric has his moments of whimsy, fun, and fun Bane....err....well....Bane doesn't want to *destroy* the world! :) Well the gods are flawed entities, and definitely aren't two dimensional... And I pretty much agree with everything you pegged the gods with, but Lathander whom I would only accuse of having a large amount of hubris - he's too easy going for the burning hatred... :) Actually, Storm Silverhand, she'd be "False" because Aribeth's crimes were that she was untrue to Tyr and her allegiance to him (though what god she worshiped while serving the Serpent God is anyone's guess). Aribeth the Paladin was certainly a believer in Tyr, she just chose to betray him. I know its popular for everyone to be Faithless rather than False because the Faithless get their cool wall but there are other options. She actually renounced Tyr when she lost her faith, before she betrayed him with actions. That makes her Faithless, especially since I can't see what god she would have been worshiping (you can change gods and not be False to your original god, says so right in the FRCS). That is one of the biggest holes in the NWN OC. Another annoying hole was that Aribeth never really qualified for the Blackguard PrC - she never announced she was following a new god (because in order to be a Blackguard you need to worship a deity, which Morag wasn't), and she never had peaceful contact with an Evil Outsider (while Morag was Evil, she was a Sarrukh (or however it's spelled) - which means she wasn't an Outsider. You probably could argue that Shar or some other deity was granting her spells, but that is never explicitly explained in the game. [Though I'm still annoyed I couldn't cut Bishop out of the Wall or destroy the Wall of the Faithless in Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer. I fully intended to blow the :censored: out of that thing and in my games, the REAL Kelemvor would have done it long ago or let him.] Ugh, spoiler. I haven't played NWN2 to the end. :P Honestly, I'm not a great big fan of games where you change player characters. If I could, I'd mod the Baldur's Gate Series to somehow allow my player character to be the one in Nerverwinter Nights 1, the expansions, AND Neverwinter Nights 2. I'd call him.....Awesominster. :-) But yes, it only really makes sense with the original hero. :rofl: Well I don't mind that Baldur's Gate is a separate series to Neverwinter Nights, but I did object to Aribeth's story being continued in a game that wasn't related to the OC. P.S. It only took me all day to get to this point with this post, so if there are some inconsistencies, I blame our ISP who have had problems all day. :)
Charles Phipps 02-03-08, 06:51 AM	It really is an interesting site, especially if you're interested in that sort of thing (as I am). Yes, I don't agree with some but most are quite good. I miss the Gamer's Dictionary for similiar reasons (describing a collection of lingo from various gamer's tables). I have this feeling we're going to be butting heads about this to no gain. Siamorphe doesn't teach that commoners are inferior, but she does teach that some people are born to rule... And that they're born to bear the responsibilities that power brings. She doesn't say that nobles are superior, just that they have a particular role in society. She isn't against a commoner ascending to rule, because pretty much every noble line started that way. Eh, it's one of those things that are different at people's tables. It's mainly a question of "What keeps Siamorphe from being the Lawful GOOD deity of Nobility and Right to Rule." Your version seems like it would cross over this line and be the benevolent, humble, wise ruler that is the basis for LG. I once forget her alignment and in an argument (with R_F of all people) was corrected to the fact she's LN rather than LG. Then I had to find out what was the quality that divorced her from Torm and Tyr. In RK's case, it's easy because she's a brutally pragmatic girl who recognizes war is 90% about reasons other than good and evil, 9% mistake, and 1% a very lucky moral certainty. I often considered making Tempus CG actually because I portrayed him as a largely benevolent "Hero God" but had to remind myself that he's about Great Deeds, not Good Ones. LN is one alignment I've never been able to get my head around... Most LN entities would be Good (since their motives almost always are), except that they're willing to achieve these good ends by any means necessary (which kind of defeats the purpose of working towards a good end, IMHO). Well Alignment is short-hand for "Can you summarize your entire personality and world view in two words for our readers." I find it easiest for the gods that the Good Deities are defined by their Goal of Helping People. The Evil Deities are defined by their Goals of Hurting People (often for their own benefit) The Neutral Deities are defined by devotion to concepts indepdenent of helping or hurting people. I figured that it worked in real life because a great portion of the planet don't care about being morally good (plenty, of course, do). A lot of people are more concerned about the immediate concerns of their intimate friends, self, and family with the larger view never entering into the equation. As I explain, there's nothing wrong with the Neutral view. It's a lot harder to take the Good. Plus, there's people who are devoted to Neutral Concepts. Helm doesn't care whether you're a cruel person or a just person (though he prefers the later) so long as you fulfill your duty. Silvanus is about nature and really.....:censored: the humans when it comes down to it. Unfortunately, this effectively means that really Talos and Malar should be CN. There are probably quite a few nobles who are like that, and probably an equal amount who are ruthless and will do anything to keep their title. Most nobles probably fall somewhere in the middle. There was a great moment when the Paladin finally broke down and addressed the rest of the party about his self-torment. "Listen, jacka****, I actually know that the entire conceit of nobility is a social contract and they're no better or worse than anyone else in the world. I've wrapped my worldview in an impossible fantasy that is based on poetry and self-justifications. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean I don't BELIEVE it." Which also helped define paladins for me. They're not out to make the world perfect like them, they're out to just make it better. Do you think she's WRONG simply because you aren't accustomed to the concept? We have very few monarchies left, and the nobility is not what it used to be, at least in the West. We are all raised pretty much in democracies, and with the idea that democracy is the best form of government, which means that any other form of government just doesn't look right to us. I always though Ed Greenwood was a writer that had a great way of handling interesting themes but never really got around to explaining them. The best part of the Lords of Waterdeep is they're an oligarchy with absolute power and zero accountability but are the least corrupt government in the whole of Faerun. There's a fun commentary on the evils of business ruled government by Ed (Sembia and the Pre-Lords dominion in Waterdeep plus the Zhents being a Medieval equivalent of a Corporation). Sadly, Lucas handled it with a sledge hammer in the Star Wars Prequels. Plus, bluntly, it's always preferrable to have Piergerion to the attitude of the mob (The Masses killed Socrates, let's not forget). But ultimately, I suppose Siamorphe was just sacrificed for me to make a statement about The Triad. I.e. specifically, Torm and Tyr may look like a Chivalric Knight and his King but they are not nor do they think like them. Humor isn't always the same for everyone. I did catch the humor, but there was an undercurrent of stereotyping (yes, of the genders) that rubbed me up the wrong way. Understood. I actually am doing a Fantasy-Fiction novel thought experiment now. You'd be interested I think because the goal of the fiction is to see how many major characters I write that I can turn into women whom I wrote as men instinctively without disrupting the narrative flow. I've done two chapters at this point and the number is four. 1. The main character (I realized there was no reason she couldn't be a woman) 2. The High Priest (whom I originally wrote as a bearded Patriarch) 3. The ruler of the country (why not a Queen?) 4. The General of the Bad guys. It's kinda embarrassing as I realize how I tended to instinctively write. And none of this would make it an "all female society" either. It's amazing how ingrained this stuff is and I've done some experimenting at my table. In a Shadowrun game, I just causally described all the Board of Directors were women. That caused some minor investigation by the players and questions. No, actually, it turned out all the women were just the best person for the job. But yes, basically, what I mean is that I can see where you're coming from. The fact the House of the Triad is now a one girl house (and one whose at odds with the entire plane) doesn't help. Well it wasn't Tyr so much as Helm I thought should have some reaction. Poor Helm lost an entire monastery dedicated to him! Surely he'd notice the loss of that many priests and pretty much all at once? Being an ally of Tyr the logical step would have been to have Tyr alert his champions in Neverwinter. The gods of Faerun send everyone dream visions and the like, why would they suddenly go silent when something's really gone wrong? My all purpose answer is "The PCs are the unwitting tools of the gods of good. You can thank them for why you always show up at the worst possible time." It sounds very similar to another blessing, indeed, and enough that I'd feel uneasy contemplating it as something a Realmsian native would say - especially since the three gods are worshiped separately and not as the Triad. Yes, Ed completely destroyed my Triad view in Realms canon by pointing out that the gods were worshiped seperately rather than Together. Thus, another major divergence from Toril-616 to his home gameworld of Toril-2. It gives everyone a "shorthand" for knowing what to expect and see. But yes, I made the Triad's faith the Kinda-Catholic Church because I felt there was a lack of large organized religious organizations in the Realms. This is less my being a hack writer (though I was 16 when I made this artistic choice :)) than my Ravenloft upbringing. Ravenloft had everything feel more Earthy. In the end, there's almost no real similiarity except appearance. But yes, I'd never use it with anyone who had real-life problems they would be uncomfortable with. Ugh, spoiler. I haven't played NWN2 to the end. Whoops. She actually renounced Tyr when she lost her faith, before she betrayed him with actions. That makes her Faithless, especially since I can't see what god she would have been worshiping (you can change gods and not be False to your original god, says so right in the FRCS). Another quirk, I don't think I'd ever judge someone Faithless if they renounced their deity and didn't take a new one. You believed in a deity and have turned against him but unless you actively treat the gods as irrelevant to your lives or disdain the very concept (i.e. Artemis Entreri) then you're going to the Pits of Punishment. But of course, in my games, I'd probably ditch the Wall if my players didn't insist on it. At the very least, it's only for those souls who are the most profoundly selfish imaginable (post-Myrkul). Honestly, the irony would be if she was judged False to Tyr then whatever new God that she worshiped. That is one of the biggest holes in the NWN OC. Another annoying hole was that Aribeth never really qualified for the Blackguard PrC - she never announced she was following a new god (because in order to be a Blackguard you need to worship a deity, which Morag wasn't), and she never had peaceful contact with an Evil Outsider (while Morag was Evil, she was a Sarrukh (or however it's spelled) - which means she wasn't an Outsider. You probably could argue that Shar or some other deity was granting her spells, but that is never explicitly explained in the game Yes, the whole thing reaked to be honest and I thought the same the moment that I heard the story. In my adaptation of the Neverwinter Nights games (I steal liberally from video games for my games as some people know), I'm going to make Aribeth swear her allegiance to Shar because of the pain of her loss. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/va041Lrfr9bobkKIil9.gif
Storm_Silverhand 02-03-08, 05:46 PM	Heya, Yes, I don't agree with some but most are quite good. I miss the Gamer's Dictionary for similiar reasons (describing a collection of lingo from various gamer's tables). Yeah, some of it is incredibly biased too, but fortunately it still makes entertaining reading. :) Eh, it's one of those things that are different at people's tables. It's mainly a question of "What keeps Siamorphe from being the Lawful GOOD deity of Nobility and Right to Rule." Your version seems like it would cross over this line and be the benevolent, humble, wise ruler that is the basis for LG. You have a very good point there. I guess in my Realms she probably is LG. I wonder what effect living in Brightwater will ultimately have on her? Would it push her over towards LG, or maybe temper the Lawful part of her alignment? Waukeen seems to fit nicely in Brightwater (because money and decadence go hand in hand most times), but Siamorphe would have to have some kind of metamorphosis to fit in... Otherwise, I can't see her lasting there terribly long. (Nobles can be extremely decadent and kinky, because they have the money and the free time to indulge in such things - but in her current state, Siamorphe doesn't seem like that, mostly because of her LN alignment and noblesse oblige dogma.) Well Alignment is short-hand for "Can you summarize your entire personality and world view in two words for our readers." I find it easiest for the gods that the Good Deities are defined by their Goal of Helping People. The Evil Deities are defined by their Goals of Hurting People (often for their own benefit) The Neutral Deities are defined by devotion to concepts indepdenent of helping or hurting people. Hmm... Yes, but there are a number of non-deity LN NPCs that do bad deeds for Good - like Khelben, for example. That definitely seems to be the pattern. Nearly every LN deity would be good but for their methods. The only exception seems to be Hoar, who really does seem LN. There are no LN deities who would be Evil but for their methods, that I can think of anyway. I figured that it worked in real life because a great portion of the planet don't care about being morally good (plenty, of course, do). A lot of people are more concerned about the immediate concerns of their intimate friends, self, and family with the larger view never entering into the equation. As I explain, there's nothing wrong with the Neutral view. It's a lot harder to take the Good. Plus, there's people who are devoted to Neutral Concepts. Helm doesn't care whether you're a cruel person or a just person (though he prefers the later) so long as you fulfill your duty. Silvanus is about nature and really.....:censored: the humans when it comes down to it. As soon as a person takes into consideration other people (and not just themselves or their immediate family, so that means friends), they're taking the Good path. I really think that purely Neutral (with regard to Good and Evil) entities are very rare. Unfortunately, this effectively means that really Talos and Malar should be CN. Talos's destruction seems to be motivated by pure malice, while Malar isn't just "nature red in tooth and claw" he's down right cruel about it and revels in that cruelty. That's what makes them evil. There was a great moment when the Paladin finally broke down and addressed the rest of the party about his self-torment. "Listen, jacka****, I actually know that the entire conceit of nobility is a social contract and they're no better or worse than anyone else in the world. I've wrapped my worldview in an impossible fantasy that is based on poetry and self-justifications. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean I don't BELIEVE it." Which also helped define paladins for me. They're not out to make the world perfect like them, they're out to just make it better. That would have been an interesting moment, I'm sure. :) Definitely pivotal in the development of the character. I always though Ed Greenwood was a writer that had a great way of handling interesting themes but never really got around to explaining them. The best part of the Lords of Waterdeep is they're an oligarchy with absolute power and zero accountability but are the least corrupt government in the whole of Faerun. If they weren't, they are now. One of the Hidden Lords has been replaced by a Doppelganger. I think that was described in the Waterdeep: City of Splendors sourcebook. Plus, bluntly, it's always preferrable to have Piergerion to the attitude of the mob (The Masses killed Socrates, let's not forget). But ultimately, I suppose Siamorphe was just sacrificed for me to make a statement about The Triad. I.e. specifically, Torm and Tyr may look like a Chivalric Knight and his King but they are not nor do they think like them. You mean the soap opera plot, or something you did in your own game? Understood. I actually am doing a Fantasy-Fiction novel thought experiment now. You'd be interested I think because the goal of the fiction is to see how many major characters I write that I can turn into women whom I wrote as men instinctively without disrupting the narrative flow. I've spoken about writer tunnel vision before, and this is exactly what I mean. Most writers (even me) will write what they're comfortable with, and for most men, that means their main characters will almost invariably be male. In my case, it's the reverse (my main characters are nearly always female)... But female (sci-fi/fantasy) writers seem to have less of a tendency to do this, and because they're trying to make it in a largely male dominated field, actually tend to be more balanced or they're also biased towards having male main characters. Having said that, there are plenty of writers who don't fit into the above generalization - David Webber, for example, especially his Honor Harrington series, and the Path of the Fury. I could do a similar experiment the current novel I'm working on, and it probably would work placing males in the main female roles... but it wouldn't have quite the same impact since one of the themes is sexism against women. It's kinda embarrassing as I realize how I tended to instinctively write. It is disconcerting to realize such a thing. I'm always aware of it, I even do it in my DnD games (most of the good NPCs the PCs have met have been female, and a good portion of the evil ones too). I do try to do better, though, but it's not always easy when coming up with NPCs on the fly. :) But yes, basically, what I mean is that I can see where you're coming from. The fact the House of the Triad is now a one girl house (and one whose at odds with the entire plane) doesn't help. It was a one girl house to begin with. Oh, and speaking of this, I got around to doing my calculations on alignment tendencies of male deities of the Faerunian pantheon. For a start, there are 35 male deities vs 22 female deities. LG = 4, NG = 4, CG = 1 LN = 6, TN = 8, CN = 5 LE = 2, NE = 2, CE = 3 Lawful = 12, Neutral = 14, Chaotic = 9 Good = 9, Neutral = 19, Evil = 7 So for male deities, there is a slight tendency towards Neutral with regard to Law and Chaos, and an overwhelming tendency towards Neutral with regard to Good and Evil. There is an over all tendency towards True Neutral. My all purpose answer is "The PCs are the unwitting tools of the gods of good. You can thank them for why you always show up at the worst possible time." Yes, that's a reasonable band aid, but it doesn't work for every combination of character you could possibly have played. But yes, I made the Triad's faith the Kinda-Catholic Church because I felt there was a lack of large organized religious organizations in the Realms. This is less my being a hack writer (though I was 16 when I made this artistic choice :)) than my Ravenloft upbringing. Ravenloft had everything feel more Earthy. In the end, there's almost no real similiarity except appearance. But yes, I'd never use it with anyone who had real-life problems they would be uncomfortable with. It would have to be an idealized version of the Catholic Church. (And that's all I'll say about it, because I fear I may give offense.) Another quirk, I don't think I'd ever judge someone Faithless if they renounced their deity and didn't take a new one. You believed in a deity and have turned against him but unless you actively treat the gods as irrelevant to your lives or disdain the very concept (i.e. Artemis Entreri) then you're going to the Pits of Punishment. That really is how it should work. It should be almost impossible to end up in the Wall of the Faithless, except by being an atheist... However, unless Aribeth declared a new deity, and she had no faith in Tyr, then she would be faithless because she'd have been effectively atheistic. Aribeth in Hell is almost impossible, since she would have had to sign a contract with a devil to get there on the Fugue Plane, and given her attitude in HotU (extreme apathy), that doesn't seem likely. Since she apparently didn't have a patron when she died, she should have been Faithless, and if I'm wrong and she did, then she would have been False. In both cases, she'd have ended up in Kelemvor's Realm. Honestly, the irony would be if she was judged False to Tyr then whatever new God that she worshiped. If you change gods, you can't be False to your last one, except if you hadn't properly accepted a new patron by atonement or doing some great deed for your new deity. Yes, the whole thing reaked to be honest and I thought the same the moment that I heard the story. In my adaptation of the Neverwinter Nights games (I steal liberally from video games for my games as some people know), I'm going to make Aribeth swear her allegiance to Shar because of the pain of her loss. Well, only the Wailing Plague from NWN is canon. ;) In my Realms, Aribeth was never a Blackguard, and never swore herself to any other deity, though I think Shar was trying to win her over. Also, she was not executed for her crimes, because Tyr himself manifested and sentenced her to serve Justice until she atoned properly (an open ended sentence that only he could say was complete, and he also gave Nasher a good talking to about Justice, and ordered Fenthick resurrected because his execution was unjust). Though she had to get out of Neverwinter because there were too many people baying for her blood. There is more to it than that, but I won't go into it. :)
Kenzuki 02-03-08, 07:59 PM	That version of the story sounds very boring and too "happily ever afterish" for my tastes personally. Plus Tyr is a hypocrite.:P
XHereticX 02-03-08, 08:48 PM	That version of the story sounds very boring and too "happily ever afterish" for my tastes personally. Plus Tyr is a hypocrite.:P I personally loved the original tragic story of NWN. Though Aribeth swearing alligence to Shar would make a lot of sense. As for her ending up in hell...who knows and who cares? Maybe she did sign a contract with a devil during her time with Maugrim. But I don't bother with such technicalities when I'm trying to enjoy a nice, angsty story.
Charles Phipps 02-03-08, 09:11 PM	That version of the story sounds very boring and too "happily ever afterish" for my tastes personally. Plus Tyr is a hypocrite.:P Do you work for the Church of Cyric or something? I personally loved the original tragic story of NWN. Though Aribeth swearing alligence to Shar would make a lot of sense. As for her ending up in hell...who knows and who cares? Maybe she did sign a contract with a devil during her time with Maugrim. But I don't bother with such technicalities when I'm trying to enjoy a nice, angsty story. Yes, I'm probably inclined to do something to make my campaign seem more "realistic" (and by realistic-I mean unfair and remind the good guys that the people of Faerun aren't nice or forgiving). That doesn't mean my players won't rescue Aribeth from the Headman's Ax but redemption would be accomplished in Tyr's hands rather than in a Civic Court of Law. Plus, I love the idea that the Aasimar Paladin of Tyr I intend to have romance her will be the one working with the Chosen of Mask to bust her out of Prison (It's an interesting story how those two became friends.)
Kenzuki 02-03-08, 10:26 PM	I'm an Agent of Hoar who is determined to avenge the unjust death of Helm by Tyr the Unjust. Cyric has nothing to do with this. FOR HELM!
Charles Phipps 02-04-08, 03:25 AM	You have a very good point there. I guess in my Realms she probably is LG. Yes, I try and focus on the negative as well as positive elements of portfolios in this respect. For me, the Siamorphe that holds nobility above and beyond the peasantry even if they're good people at heart works for a nuanced character. But you don't need nuance with gods. I wonder what effect living in Brightwater will ultimately have on her? Would it push her over towards LG, or maybe temper the Lawful part of her alignment? Waukeen seems to fit nicely in Brightwater (because money and decadence go hand in hand most times), but Siamorphe would have to have some kind of metamorphosis to fit in... Otherwise, I can't see her lasting there terribly long. (Nobles can be extremely decadent and kinky, because they have the money and the free time to indulge in such things - but in her current state, Siamorphe doesn't seem like that, mostly because of her LN alignment and noblesse oblige dogma.) In my home campaign, I was going to make her Goddess of Pagentry and Chivalry in addition to her role as Nobility and Divine Right. Frankly, it's still an awful fit. The only reason I don't think that it works as the worst switch in the GHotR is Tymora in House of the Triad along with Ilmater in Brightwater. Hmm... Yes, but there are a number of non-deity LN NPCs that do bad deeds for Good - like Khelben, for example. That definitely seems to be the pattern. Nearly every LN deity would be good but for their methods. The only exception seems to be Hoar, who really does seem LN. There are no LN deities who would be Evil but for their methods, that I can think of anyway. In general, I tend to think that "bad methods, good ends" goes to LE as much as LN. In Khelben's case, I thought long and hard before coming up with the idea that he's mostly interested in Order and prosperity as opposed to good. It's a subtle difference but works for me. He's a cynical old man who just can't work up the righteous indignation of Elminster or the other Seven Sisters for people like Fzoul. As soon as a person takes into consideration other people (and not just themselves or their immediate family, so that means friends), they're taking the Good path. I really think that purely Neutral (with regard to Good and Evil) entities are very rare. Friendship can certainly selfish as well. Chaotic Evil people can be friends with another because they adore what they get out of their relationship (or have some good qualities besides their overwhelmingly negative ones). Though I differentiate between Idealogical Neutral and Neutral by Proxy. Oddly, it's one of the Richard Baker changes I approve of. The majority of people are "Unaligned" as in they make no firm commitment to changing the world for the better but are otherwise decent folk. Neutral idealogy would be something like Dragonlance. Everyone needs a certain amount of badness in them as well as good to keep the gears of the world functioning. Steven Schned and I had a conversation about Khelben. I was like "Khel would totally smother the dictator as a baby if he had a Time Machine." Steven disagreed but I make my LN's more starkly contrasted. Which does go along with the view you have. The thing to keep in mind is that there are no true Feudal societies in the Realms, not even Cormyr and Tethyr. As far as I know, the commoners are free men and women who work their own land, even if they do pay taxes to those who rule them. Or is this not the main problem you have? Feudalism is roughly a form of slavery. That depends very strongly where you happen to be, Storm. Someone might want to ask Ed about this, though I would agree (Serfdom was a despised institution even in many parts of Cormyr). Certainly, in Zhentil Keep and other locations you have the Lords ruling with an iron fist. Talos's destruction seems to be motivated by pure malice, while Malar isn't just "nature red in tooth and claw" he's down right cruel about it and revels in that cruelty. That's what makes them evil. Talos' destruction seems motivated by a desire for a destruction. I tend to consider him anthromorphized destruction more than I really do as a person with feelings and ideas. Talos destroys....because. Malar, though, is a good example that an intelligent animal might well be Evil. If they weren't, they are now. One of the Hidden Lords has been replaced by a Doppelganger. I think that was described in the Waterdeep: City of Splendors sourcebook. Still 90% better than everything else. You mean the soap opera plot, or something you did in your own game? In general, I highlight what makes Tyr and Torm good by contrast. I do the same thing for Helm. Instead of having Helm trying to kill the Earthmother, I prefer the display from his killing Mystra. Helm is LN because he never compromises ever. He's Law Incarnate. In the case of Siamorphe, I sacrificed her better nature to illustrate the humility of the Triad. In the case of Toril-616 (my Toril), Siamorphe is an benevolent autocrat who believes in fundamental differences between nobility and the peasantry. They shouldn't be enslaved, abused, or used for your pleasure. But they exist to be ruled and you should neither take advice from them or ever acknowledge them as equals because you are born better. Likewise, Siamorphe finds the idea of Barons having the right to question their King to be a perversion. Helm and Siamorphe get along because it's an issue of "Jump" "How high" as the best society. They probably like the military because that's how its supposed to work. I should either change her to flat out LG or find something else to make her LN. I've spoken about writer tunnel vision before, and this is exactly what I mean. I'd like to put a pin in this and PM you about this instead. Having said that, there are plenty of writers who don't fit into the above generalization - David Webber, for example, especially his Honor Harrington series, and the Path of the Fury. Holy :censored:! Cause all I thought was "Okay, I need a model for a heroine in a society with gender equality and how to write female leadership without emasculating men." *pause* *think* *think* "Oh, Honor Harrington." I'll skip over the "Number of Men gods vs. Number of Women" and just say I agree. It would have to be an idealized version of the Catholic Church. (And that's all I'll say about it, because I fear I may give offense.) Well, speaking as a Catholic by conversation I doubt you'd give any offense since almost everyone has something to say they'd like to change. But yes, my version of the Triad is J.R.R. Tolkien's version of the Catholic Church. A heavilly Norseified version that has all of the objectional elements (I think we all know what's meant by that) cleaned out. I use Xvim as a heresy within it for those. I suppose one could say it's the Catholic Church as how I'd wish it to be and how it would exist in the Realms if it was lead by Beowulf (Tyr) and Galahad (Torm) with a dash of the Ragman (Ilmater). http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15002146&postcount=56 That really is how it should work. It should be almost impossible to end up in the Wall of the Faithless, except by being an atheist... However, unless Aribeth declared a new deity, and she had no faith in Tyr, then she would be faithless because she'd have been effectively atheistic. Okay, you got me. It's dumb. ;-) *bows* I'm going to play my version more or less straight at my tabletop, though I'm going to have to internally debate whether the player characters will be able to argue with her that she should be free and atoning than submitting herself to the judgement of the Courts. Cause, she strikes me as having a massive guilt complex if you convince her to redeem.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-04-08, 12:57 PM	I personally loved the original tragic story of NWN. Though Aribeth swearing alligence to Shar would make a lot of sense. Not a fan, myself. HotU, on the other hand, was awesome.:) Unlike some other posters (from what I can tell), I am more or less neutral towards Aribeth. In HotU I freed her and helped her, but did not take her into my party.
Kenzuki 02-04-08, 04:28 PM	I think Aribeth got what she deserved. I think it shows that your actions have consequences and that you should never sell your soul for power or vengeance. Aribeth forgot what it means to be a true paladin and thus fell to the darkside. She had much fear inside of her, which turned to anger which turned to hatred! Hatred leads to suffering and thus she fell. The wages of sin is death....but the hours are good.:P
Storm_Silverhand 02-04-08, 04:49 PM	Heya, I'm going to play my version more or less straight at my tabletop, though I'm going to have to internally debate whether the player characters will be able to argue with her that she should be free and atoning than submitting herself to the judgement of the Courts. Cause, she strikes me as having a massive guilt complex if you convince her to redeem. I don't have the time to do a full reply this morning (to this or your PM), so I'll get to it later... Anyway, I wanted to address this - or at least mention something I remembered. Effectively, Morag slapped a Helm of Opposite Alignment on Aribeth. Fortunately it wasn't a curse to be removed, but it was powerful magic that had been used on her over a long(ish) period of time. Aribeth was pretty much driven mad with grief by Morag, and understandably she could only endure the torment for so long before she gave in. I don't think she was completely responsible for her actions. This is why I don't think she'd embrace another god, but rather had no faith at all. (Remember, right at the end Aribeth is afraid to come with the PC to confront Morag, because as she essentially says, Morag might try to influence her and she doesn't know if she can fight it.) However, knowing Aribeth pre-Morag, she would suffer incredible guilt about what she did while under Morag's influence - and may even want to die... but the theme of love redeems would be kind of pointless in the face of that. Not a fan, myself. HotU, on the other hand, was awesome.:) Unlike some other posters (from what I can tell), I am more or less neutral towards Aribeth. In HotU I freed her and helped her, but did not take her into my party. Aribeth had quite the following on the Bioware boards. :) She also had more than a few detractors... She seems to be the sort of character you either love or hate.
Kenzuki 02-04-08, 05:15 PM	I killed Aribeth in my campaign. My fighter/assassin didn't like her attitude.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-04-08, 07:40 PM	Aribeth had quite the following on the Bioware boards. :) She also had more than a few detractors... She seems to be the sort of character you either love or hate. Oh geez, you don't need to tell me that--trust me, I've seen it. In fact, the part of me that is inclined to dislike her is fueled more by the way some ardent fans defended her actions than the character herself. I can understand being a super-fan of certain characters (I am, myself), but I can at least acknowledge the flaws of characters that I love.
Charles Phipps 02-04-08, 08:22 PM	Oh geez, you don't need to tell me that--trust me, I've seen it. In fact, the part of me that is inclined to dislike her is fueled more by the way some ardent fans defended her actions than the character herself. I can understand being a super-fan of certain characters (I am, myself), but I can at least acknowledge the flaws of characters that I love. Damn, I hate when I miss fandom memes. I just played the games a couple of months ago, so I had no idea how popular that certain characters were or their actions. But this is hardly new. I actually am still infamous at my gaming group. Charles: So, I finally got around to buying Final Fantasy VII for PC. Chris: You to the part where Aeris dies yet? Charles: She what?! Oh :censored: you man! Chris: .....HOW THE :censored: did you not know this!? It's like Jar Jar sucking! EVERY GEEK KNOWS THIS!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-04-08, 08:39 PM	Damn, I hate when I miss fandom memes. I just played the games a couple of months ago, so I had no idea how popular that certain characters were or their actions. Heh. Yeah, Aribeth is a character that people seem to love or hate, as Storm noted. Although, that's happened with other characters too, like Carth Onassi from Knights of the Old Republic.
windoze9x 02-05-08, 03:16 AM	Okay I'm confused. Skimming through The Grand History of the Realms I see that Tyr killed helm and that he helped imprison Cyric. I don't see anything about Tyr's death. Where does it state that Tyr dies? This really bums me out btw since I just made a 3.5e character that is a cleric of Tyr heh. I put the important part in bold ;)
Reneshat 02-05-08, 03:34 AM	Okay I'm confused. Skimming through The Grand History of the Realms I see that Tyr killed helm and that he helped imprison Cyric. I don't see anything about Tyr's death. Where does it state that Tyr dies? This really bums me out btw since I just made a 3.5e character that is a cleric of Tyr heh. I put the important part in bold ;) It doesn't state that he dies. In fact we don't know if he does. We do know however, that at the very least he won't be a greater god in 4ed, he might not even be in 4ed, but we don't know if he simply loses power, if he simply leaves, or if he, as you seem to have taken from the thread name, dies. More or less, Torm is taking his position. P.S. You won't find the information on this in GHotR, since it was from Rich in the "Ask a Designer" thread.
Kenzuki 02-05-08, 07:59 AM	Okay I'm confused. Skimming through The Grand History of the Realms I see that Tyr killed helm and that he helped imprison Cyric. I don't see anything about Tyr's death. Where does it state that Tyr dies? This really bums me out btw since I just made a 3.5e character that is a cleric of Tyr heh. I put the important part in bold ;) Your Cleric will be dead most likely by the time the 4th Edition Realms takes place. So you have all the time in the world to worship your unjust hypocrite of a deity. Ware, for the followers of Hoar seek to avenge the death of Helm....
Charles Phipps 02-05-08, 11:40 AM	Kenzuki, frankly, I'd appreciate if you stop cluttering up the thread with the Tyrsults, okay. We get it, really.
sfdragon 02-05-08, 01:16 PM	the maimed one commited murder the maimed one must fall Hoar will gut his followers chaos and bloodshed will sow in their passing so sayeth the wise aluando
Charles Phipps 02-05-08, 02:29 PM	:rolleyes: 1. Tyr and Hoar are allies 2. Don't you have any other threads you can bother, unless you have something to contribute?
Storm_Silverhand 02-05-08, 07:00 PM	Heya, Yes, I try and focus on the negative as well as positive elements of portfolios in this respect. For me, the Siamorphe that holds nobility above and beyond the peasantry even if they're good people at heart works for a nuanced character. But you don't need nuance with gods. Gods tend to be fairly one tracked... The things they're usually concerned with are their portfolios and their worshipers, which has a tendency to make them blind to anything outside of those two things. (If something big happens outside their portfolio, but has a significant impact on their worshipers, they do pay attention... but it has to be on the order of something like, oh, the Dawn Cataclysm, or the Spellplage...) That's where they're flawed, IMHO. In my home campaign, I was going to make her Goddess of Pagentry and Chivalry in addition to her role as Nobility and Divine Right. Frankly, it's still an awful fit. The only reason I don't think that it works as the worst switch in the GHotR is Tymora in House of the Triad along with Ilmater in Brightwater. Chivalry is a fairly Good concept, and is something I think would push Siamorphe to LG. Siamorphe fits better than Ilmater, but Tymora is completely out of place in the House of the Triad.. Hmm, a silly thought just occurred to me... Ilmater could become the Good god of BDSM! Then he might fit in Brightwater. :rolleye2: In general, I tend to think that "bad methods, good ends" goes to LE as much as LN. In Khelben's case, I thought long and hard before coming up with the idea that he's mostly interested in Order and prosperity as opposed to good. It's a subtle difference but works for me. He's a cynical old man who just can't work up the righteous indignation of Elminster or the other Seven Sisters for people like Fzoul. Hmm... I don't think I can agree with you on Khelben. Especially since his wife is definitely Good, and he would be influenced by her. Also, if there wasn't a kernel of goodness in Khelben, I don't think Laeral would have stayed with him. Cynical, on the other hand, he's definitely that. Oddly, it's one of the Richard Baker changes I approve of. The majority of people are "Unaligned" as in they make no firm commitment to changing the world for the better but are otherwise decent folk. Neutral idealogy would be something like Dragonlance. Everyone needs a certain amount of badness in them as well as good to keep the gears of the world functioning. Yes, I think that's probably going to be an interesting change to the game. That depends very strongly where you happen to be, Storm. Someone might want to ask Ed about this, though I would agree (Serfdom was a despised institution even in many parts of Cormyr). Certainly, in Zhentil Keep and other locations you have the Lords ruling with an iron fist. They rule with an iron fist, yes, but in order to have a serfdom, those lords need to own all the land, and the peasants need to farm that land for them, as virtually slaves. I am not sure Zhentil Keep falls into this category, given it's really a city state that has several subordinate cities under its rule - and doesn't appear to have a true nobility... But I am not really an expert on the region, so I probably don't know what the heck I'm talking about. ;) Talos' destruction seems motivated by a desire for a destruction. I tend to consider him anthromorphized destruction more than I really do as a person with feelings and ideas. Talos destroys....because. Malar, though, is a good example that an intelligent animal might well be Evil. 1) Talos destroys things for destruction's sake, yes. But without creation in its wake, it's pretty darned evil. There is no purpose in his destruction but destruction... I'm not sure I'm really explaining what I mean here. *sigh* 2) Animals are neutral, and intelligent animals would be neutral too. Malar is cruel and revels in it, while animals are cruel to survive. Again, I'm not sure how well I'm getting my point across here - For example, Malar has his worshipers in Cormyr abduct a young woman (a virgin, I think) from time to time for his so called High Hunt, where the woman is turned out into the forest and the Malarite faithful then hunt her down... And this sort of thing is par for the course for his faith... If that's not evil, then I think we have two different definitions of the term. An animal doesn't go out of its way to be cruel like that. In the case of Siamorphe, I sacrificed her better nature to illustrate the humility of the Triad. In the case of Toril-616 (my Toril), Siamorphe is an benevolent autocrat who believes in fundamental differences between nobility and the peasantry. They shouldn't be enslaved, abused, or used for your pleasure. But they exist to be ruled and you should neither take advice from them or ever acknowledge them as equals because you are born better. Likewise, Siamorphe finds the idea of Barons having the right to question their King to be a perversion. That's definitely not the Siamorphe I know. :) She's not so stupid as to think that nobles need no advice from non-nobles. Sometimes the best person to tell a Baron or a King what they need to do to ensure good crops, is a farmer (a poor example, I know). If a King/Queen or a Baron(ess) didn't know how to take advice of those who are not themselves nobles, then they'd be failing their noblesse oblige. Holy :censored:! Cause all I thought was "Okay, I need a model for a heroine in a society with gender equality and how to write female leadership without emasculating men." *pause* *think* *think* "Oh, Honor Harrington." Not sure what you're saying there... Care to clarify? A heavilly Norseified version that has all of the objectional elements (I think we all know what's meant by that) cleaned out. I use Xvim as a heresy within it for those. I suppose one could say it's the Catholic Church as how I'd wish it to be and how it would exist in the Realms if it was lead by Beowulf (Tyr) and Galahad (Torm) with a dash of the Ragman (Ilmater). http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15002146&postcount=56 Sounds interesting... You say Xvin is a heresy? How does that work? I'm going to play my version more or less straight at my tabletop, though I'm going to have to internally debate whether the player characters will be able to argue with her that she should be free and atoning than submitting herself to the judgement of the Courts. Cause, she strikes me as having a massive guilt complex if you convince her to redeem. Let me know how that pans out. Sounds like fun. ;) (I agree on the guilt complex, as you've probably already seen in the thread dedicated to Aribeth. :))
Kenzuki 02-05-08, 07:10 PM	:rolleyes: 1. Tyr and Hoar are allies 2. Don't you have any other threads you can bother, unless you have something to contribute? 1. Tyr and Helm were allies too but that didn't stop Tyr from killing him. I'm just trying to provide the other side of the coin to this whole ordeal. You seem to be blinded by the fact that the whole debacle (no matter how badly written) about Tyr/Tymora/Helm is horribly unjust. Even IF Helm WERE interested in Tymora (which is wasn't), it would have been Tyr's own fault for not having the stones to court Tymora himself. You are also using Cyric as a scapegoat when there is no evidence that he had a hand in it. For all we know the Prince of Lies could be innocent in this whole thing. If he IS responsible it still paints Tyr in a bad light because he was stupid enough to follow along with it. Either way, Tyr is a hypocrite and I wouldn't trust him to Judge over me.
Charles Phipps 02-05-08, 07:35 PM	That's where they're flawed, IMHO. I can't see that. They're dominated by their portfolios but the gods seem to meddle in everything. Chivalry is a fairly Good concept, and is something I think would push Siamorphe to LG. Siamorphe fits better than Ilmater, but Tymora is completely out of place in the House of the Triad.. Yes, though it also reinforces her "get down on your knees, peasant." aspect. Hmm, a silly thought just occurred to me... Ilmater could become the Good god of BDSM! Then he might fit in Brightwater. Actually, if he changed from Suffering to Good Will, Mercy, and Outcasts. He'd fit in with the nicer aspects of Sune. Hmm... I don't think I can agree with you on Khelben. Especially since his wife is definitely Good, and he would be influenced by her. Also, if there wasn't a kernel of goodness in Khelben, I don't think Laeral would have stayed with him. I think Khelben loves his wife fine but I also think that she and he stay out of each other's private affairs too. Larael I doubt would ever feel like she could lecture Khelben on morality after her rather unpleasant past history. Khelben COULD turn good but he never could because he's too weighed down by his past. They rule with an iron fist, yes, but in order to have a serfdom, those lords need to own all the land, and the peasants need to farm that land for them, as virtually slaves. I am not sure Zhentil Keep falls into this category, given it's really a city state that has several subordinate cities under its rule - and doesn't appear to have a true nobility... But I am not really an expert on the region, so I probably don't know what the heck I'm talking about. True, I think farms in Zhentil Keep just have outright slaves rather than serfs. 1) Talos destroys things for destruction's sake, yes. But without creation in its wake, it's pretty darned evil. There is no purpose in his destruction but destruction... I'm not sure I'm really explaining what I mean here. *sigh* No, I get what you're saying, I'm just saying that I always debate whether an amoral force of pure destruction and anarchy can really be called evil. It's like blaming Kossuth for burning. 2) Animals are neutral, and intelligent animals would be neutral too. Malar is cruel and revels in it, while animals are cruel to survive. Again, I'm not sure how well I'm getting my point across here - For example, Malar has his worshipers in Cormyr abduct a young woman (a virgin, I think) from time to time for his so called High Hunt, where the woman is turned out into the forest and the Malarite faithful then hunt her down... And this sort of thing is par for the course for his faith... If that's not evil, then I think we have two different definitions of the term. An animal doesn't go out of its way to be cruel like that. No, that's unquestionably evil, and I always felt it seemed a trifle out of character for Malar from what we saw from in Evermeet: The Isle of Elves. I guess I should remember he's a monster who THINKS he's just nature rather than a living predator. That's definitely not the Siamorphe I know. She's not so stupid as to think that nobles need no advice from non-nobles. Sometimes the best person to tell a Baron or a King what they need to do to ensure good crops, is a farmer (a poor example, I know). If a King/Queen or a Baron(ess) didn't know how to take advice of those who are not themselves nobles, then they'd be failing their noblesse oblige. Yes, your Siamorphe is drastically different. I'd say seeking the advice of the peasantry and courting them as your equals or betters in areas would be actually outright blasphemous to the faith and cause for the priests to lose their spells. If a Noble doesn't know his peasantry well enough then it's HIS fault, not something a peasant should correct him on. Two things for a functioning society. 1. Nobles must be perfect in all things. Benevolent, Wise, and Decent. 2. Peasants must never, ever, ever, ever forget their place. They should not intermarry nobility, be elevated (unless someone can prove noble heritage of some sort), or treated as equals. 3. They should be cared for as the inferiors they are. Not because they are bad, but because you are better. I think makes a good LN goddess. Not sure what you're saying there... Care to clarify? Allow me to rephrase. I'm thinking about how to write a heroine and her personality that will not be just a guy whose a woman and a society where I address gender but don't pretend it doesn't exist either. I wanted to create a strong female character and similiarly strong female supporting characters. Then I thought, okay, what book series suceeded in this. *thinks for a few seconds* And then Honor Harrington was the first that came to mind. Sounds interesting... You say Xvin is a heresy? How does that work? Effectively, I didn't want to just do the "Sauron" thing. I have Bane for that. Evil should also come beautifully wrapped and in the context of moral majorities, fanaticism, and zealotry in the name of passionate righteous good. Since Xvim has always been Bane with the numbers filed off, I liked the idea that he could assume the role of Patron of "Evil that thinks its Good." "The heresy of Saint Xvim" basically teaches that Xvim is the Child of Tyr rather than Bane and an important member of the Triad. It's heretics gain the ability to cast clerical spells as normal Tyrites while their alignment shows up as LG despite their Evil nature. Saint Xvim warps the Triad's teachings to basically call for the extermination of Orcs and other Humanoids, Human Chauvanism, conversion of enemy faiths by the sword, and everything else ugly we know about faith. Bigotry is alive and well in the Realms and Xvim speaks to it very strongly. Tyr is zealous in trying to root out the evils of Xvim's teachings but heavy handed methods don't work out very well and just play into his hands. Basically, whenever I need a TV trope of a Knight Templar or other crazed Zealot for my games, I like to use Xvim's hidden faithful. Bizarrely, Xvim is doing the same thing with Lathander's faithful and the Dawn Cataclysm (he's Zarus in the Realms)
Charles Phipps 02-05-08, 07:37 PM	1. Tyr and Helm were allies too but that didn't stop Tyr from killing him. And Helm would have obviously spared his life. :rolleyes: I'm just trying to provide the other side of the coin to this whole ordeal. You seem to be blinded by the fact that the whole debacle (no matter how badly written) about Tyr/Tymora/Helm is horribly unjust. Even IF Helm WERE interested in Tymora (which is wasn't), it would have been Tyr's own fault for not having the stones to court Tymora himself. You are also using Cyric as a scapegoat when there is no evidence that he had a hand in it. For all we know the Prince of Lies could be innocent in this whole thing. If he IS responsible it still paints Tyr in a bad light because he was stupid enough to follow along with it. Either way, Tyr is a hypocrite and I wouldn't trust him to Judge over me. This isn't about Tyr vs. Helm. It's a funeral thread for Tyr that's gotten off track. There's plenty of other places to say "hey, I hate Tyr and am glad he's dead." Now, you're certainly welcome to say that and I'm glad that you did. I even responded a few bits back. But you said your piece and it's really not adding much I think now. And I prefer Cyric as the "Scapegoat" because it's better and makes more sense. Just because it's canon, doesn't mean its remotely true in our games or should be true in the Realms. Or that it happened exactly in the worst way possible. If it said "Helm died on his knees, begging" I'd say that was woefully out of character as well. Hell, in my homebrew, I had ASMODEUS responsible for the duel and replaced Tyr secretly!
Kenzuki 02-05-08, 07:53 PM	So you're just going to ignor what really happened and go on blissfully worshipping your hypocrite god. That's cool. But to address one point. Helm wouldn't have had to make that choice because Helm was innocent and didn't start the fight.;)
Charles Phipps 02-05-08, 07:54 PM	So you're just going to ignor what really happened and go on blissfully worshipping your hypocrite god. That's cool. But to address one point. Helm wouldn't have had to make that choice because Helm was innocent and didn't start the fight.;) Talk about it all you like. You can't change Tyr is a Just, Noble, and Good Deity who represents everything cool in the Realms. The Grand History of the Realms can't defeat the awesomeness of the Triad. :cool:
Kenzuki 02-05-08, 08:36 PM	Talk about it all you like. You can't change Tyr is a Just, Noble, and Good Deity who represents everything cool in the Realms. The Grand History of the Realms can't defeat the awesomeness of the Triad. :cool: The Triad doesn't exist anymore.:rolleyes:
Charles Phipps 02-05-08, 08:40 PM	The Triad doesn't exist anymore.:rolleyes: The Old One, perhaps. But I'm looking forward to the next one. Besides, I'm sure Ilmater will come to his senses by 5th Edition. Helm will probably be back too.
Kenzuki 02-05-08, 11:24 PM	To throw some more salt in your wounds. It's Tyr's fault the Triad fell apart.:D *laughs evily*
Charles Phipps 02-05-08, 11:43 PM	Bah. Now I'll mock Ilmater for being a coward and abandoning his position! Siamorphe is next on the list!
Kenzuki 02-06-08, 12:22 AM	Bah. Now I'll mock Ilmater for being a coward and abandoning his position! Siamorphe is next on the list! Actually, they left because of Tyr. It's all Tyr's fault. The evil gods must be rolling on the floor with laughter now. To think, the Bastion of Good that they could never defeat has crumbled due to the actions of it's leader. Oh the irony of it all. I'm sure Hoar is pleased.
Charles Phipps 02-06-08, 12:36 AM	Hoar....whose allies with Tyr? :confused:
Kenzuki 02-06-08, 12:38 AM	Hoar....whose allies with Tyr? :confused: Hoar is the God of Poetic Justice. And what can be more poetic than Tyr breaking the Triad up with his unjust acts?
Charles Phipps 02-06-08, 12:39 AM	Hoar is the God of Poetic Justice. And what can be more poetic than Tyr breaking the Triad up with his unjust acts? How is that justice?
Storm_Silverhand 02-06-08, 12:46 AM	Heya, I can't see that. They're dominated by their portfolios but the gods seem to meddle in everything. Hmm... They do, but their meddling is still coloured by their portfolios. Actually, if he changed from Suffering to Good Will, Mercy, and Outcasts. He'd fit in with the nicer aspects of Sune. Ilmater's portfolio as per Faiths and Pantheons: Endurance, suffering, martyrdom, perseverance. He'd have to completely change his portfolio to the point where he wouldn't be the same god. I think Khelben loves his wife fine but I also think that she and he stay out of each other's private affairs too. Larael I doubt would ever feel like she could lecture Khelben on morality after her rather unpleasant past history. Khelben COULD turn good but he never could because he's too weighed down by his past. I was under the impression that they were a team - he supports her, and she supports him. That's why Laeral split with the Harpers as well. They have a lot that binds them together, but I think if you were to ask Laeral, she'd say Khelben was a good man... He has questionable methods, but his heart is undeniably in the right place. No, I get what you're saying, I'm just saying that I always debate whether an amoral force of pure destruction and anarchy can really be called evil. It's like blaming Kossuth for burning. I get your point, but I still think there's a level of malice in Talos that isn't in Kossuth. No, that's unquestionably evil, and I always felt it seemed a trifle out of character for Malar from what we saw from in Evermeet: The Isle of Elves. I guess I should remember he's a monster who THINKS he's just nature rather than a living predator. It's been a while since I've read that book, but I got the impression of malice from Malar in that book. I think there's something quite spiteful and angry about him that takes him beyond the casual cruelty of nature. Yes, your Siamorphe is drastically different. I'd say seeking the advice of the peasantry and courting them as your equals or betters in areas would be actually outright blasphemous to the faith and cause for the priests to lose their spells. If a Noble doesn't know his peasantry well enough then it's HIS fault, not something a peasant should correct him on. Except that a farmer will still know more about farming than a noble. It's not a case of the peasant being better than the noble, just a case of a different focus of knowledge. Just listening to someone's advice doesn't make them your equal. Two things for a functioning society. 1. Nobles must be perfect in all things. Benevolent, Wise, and Decent. 2. Peasants must never, ever, ever, ever forget their place. They should not intermarry nobility, be elevated (unless someone can prove noble heritage of some sort), or treated as equals. 3. They should be cared for as the inferiors they are. Not because they are bad, but because you are better. That's three things. :P But I have the most problem with 2. Somewhere back in every noble's line is a commoner. Siamorphe's dogma is pretty clear - nobles are there to rule over commoners, that is their role in life, but they must take care of those commoners and not abuse them. To quote her dogma: "A strong noble class that cares for the commoners of Faerun and looks out for their best interests is the most stable, fair form of government" At no point in her dogma does it say that commoners are inherently inferior, nor that they should be disregarded. In the end, I think Siamorphe represents the respectful noble, one who appreciates their duty and understands that arrogance wins no friends. Allow me to rephrase. I'm thinking about how to write a heroine and her personality that will not be just a guy whose a woman and a society where I address gender but don't pretend it doesn't exist either. I wanted to create a strong female character and similiarly strong female supporting characters. Then I thought, okay, what book series suceeded in this. *thinks for a few seconds* And then Honor Harrington was the first that came to mind. Ah, fair enough. :) Was kind of wondering if you were being sarcastic or not. :) Effectively, I didn't want to just do the "Sauron" thing. I have Bane for that. Evil should also come beautifully wrapped and in the context of moral majorities, fanaticism, and zealotry in the name of passionate righteous good. Since Xvim has always been Bane with the numbers filed off, I liked the idea that he could assume the role of Patron of "Evil that thinks its Good." "The heresy of Saint Xvim" basically teaches that Xvim is the Child of Tyr rather than Bane and an important member of the Triad. It's heretics gain the ability to cast clerical spells as normal Tyrites while their alignment shows up as LG despite their Evil nature. Saint Xvim warps the Triad's teachings to basically call for the extermination of Orcs and other Humanoids, Human Chauvanism, conversion of enemy faiths by the sword, and everything else ugly we know about faith. Bigotry is alive and well in the Realms and Xvim speaks to it very strongly. Tyr is zealous in trying to root out the evils of Xvim's teachings but heavy handed methods don't work out very well and just play into his hands. Basically, whenever I need a TV trope of a Knight Templar or other crazed Zealot for my games, I like to use Xvim's hidden faithful. Bizarrely, Xvim is doing the same thing with Lathander's faithful and the Dawn Cataclysm (he's Zarus in the Realms) Hmm... Very interesting. Maybe Xvim is becoming the god of Heretics in your Realms? ;)
sfdragon 02-06-08, 04:12 AM	:rolleyes: 1. Tyr and Hoar are allies 2. Don't you have any other threads you can bother, unless you have something to contribute? contribute??? okay there is a differense between friends and allies. a friend will be there, but an ally will cost you. Hoars followers are vigilantes, which in the eyes of tyr are criminals, and i dont see them as allies either. so where does it say that they were?
Charles Phipps 02-06-08, 06:24 AM	Ah, fair enough. Was kind of wondering if you were being sarcastic or not. Nope, I'm a huge David Weber fan. Not much else to say and at last we resolved the main issues of our conversation. I'd say more about Siamorphe but the simple fact is you prefer a benevolent one and I prefer one that is about the ups and downs about nobility. Good show.
Storm_Silverhand 02-06-08, 05:35 PM	Heya, Nope, I'm a huge David Weber fan. Strangely enough, I'm not. :) I loved Path of the Fury (Greek Mythology meets Science Fiction FTW!), but the Honor Harrington novels aren't really my cup of tea. (My other half loves them, though, but said that later books get samey.) I also liked what I read of the War God's Own series. :) Not much else to say and at last we resolved the main issues of our conversation. I'd say more about Siamorphe but the simple fact is you prefer a benevolent one and I prefer one that is about the ups and downs about nobility. Good show. Yes, a good conversation. :) Thank you. :)
Charles Phipps 02-07-08, 08:32 AM	Thanks, I've made my story for the version of Tyr vs. Helm in my own campaigns that I'm going to share with everyone. The DM's Dark Basically, Asmodeus manages to successfully capture Tyr after luring him to the Nine Hells. Asmodeus, being the King of Evil, burns up massive amounts of power from the souls he's been storing since the dawn of creation to assume the appearance of Tyr. Likewise, Tymora is captured and imprisoned to be replaced by Glaysia. Asmodeus manages to kill Helm in single combat and divide the Triad while pinning the blame on the Dark Sun. Tyr and Tymora, in the meantime, remain imprisoned in the bowels of the Ninth Level until Tyr successfully manages to breach his bonds with the help of the Mistress of Luck. Asmodeus, now having ascended to full deity status, proceeds to depart Mount Celestia and leave a ruined reputation of the god along with many dead allies. Here's the new version of Tyr for my Post-Spell Plague campaign. Tyr (The Even Handed, The Lawgiver, The Justicar, The Lord of Judgment) Intermediate Power of Mount Celestia Portfolio: Balance, Investigation, Judgment, Justice, Law, Ordeals, Trials Aliases: Lugh, Pholtus Superior: None (ostensibly Torm) Allies: Bahamut, Helm, Ilmater, Hoar, Kelemvor, Lliira, Oghma, Red Knight, Torm, Tymora Foes: Asmodeus, Bane, Cyric, Garagos, Ilmater (more precisely hostile), Mask, Velsharoon Symbol: Scales Domains: Good, Law, Protection, Retribution Worshipper's Alignment: LG, NG, LN, N, LE Favored Weapon: "Glorious Justice" (War hammer with resemblance to Gavel) Tyr (TEER) is currently still imprisoned in the Nine Hells but it is unlikely that said prison will hold him for long. Tyr has suffered a terrible blackening to his reputation thanks to the events of Asmodeus' impersonation of him and the loss of a dear dear friend. Furthermore, the imprisonment in the Nine Hells has changed the Lawgiver to the point that he's no longer the deity that he once was. Tyr, when he chooses to manifest, almost is entirely different from the god he once was. The most visible sign of his action is the fact that Tyr's eyes have apparently healed, though he still tends to wear a blindfold and he has taken to wearing a steel prosthetic over his maimed hand. Tyr also tends to be younger in appearance with a renewed vigor to his state, closer to middle age than old age. History and Relationships: The destruction of Helm at the hands of Asmodeus and the fact that his clergy amongst allies believed himself capable of such a terrible deed is something that struck Tyr far more horribly than any murder could have. His imprisonment at the lowest level of the Nine Hells had a different effect than the one Asmodeus intended, however, as it reminded Tyr that evil was something that one could never rest one's laurels on nor could one ever become less than perfect in fighting. When Tyr returns, a large portion of his faithful is going to be instructed to permanently move towards Torm has Tyr divorces himself from the trappings of what came before. The entire Realms will know countless sightings of the God of Justice as he hunts down the wicked but, more surprisingly, are devoted more to finding the innocent and protecting them from unfair retribution. Tyr will attract a new faithful that makes up a large portion of his resulting faith that are invigorated by a belief that the Law should be there to protect individuals, to be merciful when warranted, and to only bring down retribution when absolutely necessary. This results in a bizarre number of what, in other lands, would be called Crusading Defense Attorneys as much as the traditional Tyrean prosecutors. Tyr's new faithful will alienate much of his existing faithful, quite a few moved towards LN or even LE in the wake of Asmdoeus' possession, but the God of Judgement's new role will be a welcome one by the majority of Faerunites. Bizarrely, many Tyrites find themselves allying with individuals like the Lliirites or Tymora's faithful to protect the genuinely innocent. Many of the faithful even find themselves sent on missions via portents to protect those unjustly persecuted. Ilmater's friendship with Tyr has deeply suffered thanks to recent events and will be unsure if the God of Justice is genuinely true or another of Asmodeus' lies. Bizarrely, the deep rivalry that develops within his faith will be partially motivated by the fact that Tyr's faithful are slowly coming to be viewed as the god of mercy over the Suffering One. If Tyr acquires the portfolio of Mercy, he will likely return to the status of Greater God. Another option would be the deities come to terms and Tyr aquires the portfolio of Redemption. It will take much to reconcile the two gods. A "special project" of the new faithful will also be to gather up the holy artifacts of Helm, many held by Red Knight's Church or Asmodeus and Cyric's faithful. Tyr fully intends to somehow restore Helm to life to undo the injustice that was performed against his former friend. The problem is that so few people believe in the sincerity of the one that they attribute to killing him. Helm is unlikely to return to God status, having passed his portfolio off to Red Knight, but his restoration to some kind of Archangel like figure would do wonders for reconciling the Triad's former members. Many of Tyr's faithful will begin working vigorously with Oghma in the pursuit of better methods of acquiring knowledge of local law, customs, precedent in their passionate pursuit of truth. Eventually, this might apply to Gond as well while they learn to master methods of investigation (The Inquisitive class from Eberron is available at no-penalty to Multi-class in by Tyr's Clerics). Quite a few of the Watch in Faerun are utterly confused by the insistence on the importance of protecting the poor or despised in regions where such abuses are common. Indeed, more than one of Tyr's new faithful will be martyred in the pursuit of true justice. Tyr, unerringly, loathes Asmodeus and his corruption of the principles of Law. Asmodeus is likely to become a dire enemy of Tyr upon his resumption of Greater Godhood (The Devil God making the assumption that the Justicar's faithful is finished in the wake of his corruption). Likewise, Mask and Cyric are taken off guard with the over the top passion that the Tyrites pursue them. The zeal of the Tyrites being something that was usually reserved for Tormites. Bane will feel genuine pain at the hands of Tyr's presence with his version of the Law now utterly at odds with his own version. Dogma: Justice is not the Law. The law is a tool to facilitate Justice. Justice is a combination of discovering the truth, protecting the innocent, punishing the guilty, and showing mercy to those whom have violated the law but can be brought back into the folds of goodness. A person who is innocent should be protected from wrongful persecution and prosecution at any costs and the truth must NEVER be sacrificed for the sake of convenience or the benefit of those in power. It is better than ten murderers go free than one innocent man be hanged but a better solution is ten murderers be hanged with the innocent man going free with ten murderers redeemed being even better. Torm, Asmodeus, and other figures involved in this plot will be detailed here with this entry. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=15032252#post15032252
Kenzuki 02-07-08, 08:37 AM	You're determined to make Tyr innocent of this aren't you? Props on the story though. You'de make a Yugoloth proud with that propaganda.:P
Charles Phipps 02-07-08, 09:01 AM	You're determined to make Tyr innocent of this aren't you? Props on the story though. You'de make a Yugoloth proud with that propaganda.:P It's canon in my games and if Greenknight can get Torm made into a Greater god, maybe I can make Tyr innocent. :P Whose the Man? TYR!
XHereticX 02-09-08, 10:45 AM	Hoar....whose allies with Tyr? :confused: Nah, as far as I know Tyr and Shar are fighting for his disposition, I don't know if he has chosen a side yet, though I would think he would go with Tyr, especially now that Tyr has shown he has a more capracious side. The New Triad could be Torm, Tyr, and Hoar. With Torm as the leadman.
Charles Phipps 02-15-08, 12:13 PM	Well, we don't know how the Triad is currently going to be operating or whether there's going to be a New One Post-Spell Plague. What's your take? Think the Triad will be reborn or not? Maybe with Bahamut or another God replacing Ilmater?