Post/Author/DateTime	Post
yggdrasil 06-21-04, 06:23 PM	What if Shar wanted to end all magic on Abeir-Toril? Would that cause the destruction of shadow magic? Here's what I am getting at... If shadow magic is the areas between the weave... the negative space between the strands if you will, then if the weave was destroyed, would that not leave only the negative space... the shadow magic? And while we're asking hypotheticals? If the weave was destroyed, would this destroy the gods? As I understand it, Mystra and the weave are (for all intents and purposes) one. So it would make sense if she might be destroyed with the destruction of the weave... but what of the other gods with different portfolios? Surely Shar herself wouldn't be destroyed? -- The fantasy cliche of an end to all magic in world is where my campaign may be heading... but with a twist... not all magic is threatened.. only arcane magic that relies on the weave... and divine magic that relies on deities that are too connected to the weave to survive its destruction. Shadow magic will survive, perhaps grow stronger, without the weave to limit its potential. Shar is naturally the main god-protagonist... whilst all the other gods have something to lose if the weave is destroyed. The players have to complete an incredibly complicated ritual, that'll prevent this destruction and preserve magic as they know it. It sounds alot better than performing a ritual to close a gate to hell.... *been there, done that!* chuckle. What do all you realmslore buffs think?
WraithXIII 06-24-04, 09:50 PM	Hmmm, it's been so long since I have read TMoF, so I can't give a rules-based answer. I would think that the Weave and Shadow Weave are somewhat interrelated, so the destruction of one would be followed by the destruction of the other. Otherwise, realistically Mystra or Shar might have tried something like that. As for the Gods, nah, they'll be fine, mostly, but Mystra would be kaput, so arcane magic would cease to exist, leaving only divine magic. Perhaps that in itself would be enough to topple the realms into a destructive war as evil-inclined priests and such decide to take vengeance on those arcane mages who might have hindered them in the past. Gotta remember to take factors like that into consideration realisitically. If my worst enemy in Faerun suddenly became powerless, I would either seriously think about his demise if I was good, or carry through with it if I was evil.
yggdrasil 06-25-04, 05:37 AM	Some nice thoughts there wraith... I can understand the inter-dependency of the weave and the shadow weave (the negative spaces only exist when there is a positive space; ie. the strands of the weave). It would be nice if the shadow weave would not be corrupted... although you quite rightly point out that shar might have already tried something before now if this was the case. Unless perhaps it was extremely difficult to destroy or corrupt the weave - maybe it required the city of shade to return (a recent event), a number of magical nexuses to be swallowed into the plane of shadow (a la tilverton) - or perhaps pools of radiance to be swallowed into the plane of shadow... which might provide a reason for attacking evereska... myth drannor may be next. Just free associating at the mo'. I do like the other alternative you post... perhaps the priests would like to see the destruction of all arcane magic... another possibility. The ritual I have designed to prevent this catastrophe from happening is a full campaign's worth with many requirements. As soon as I have it completed I will post it.
warlockco 06-25-04, 06:27 AM	Don't forget that ALL magic items, enchantments and such go Kaput aslo, unless they are Shadow-Weave.
Cthulhu 06-25-04, 04:23 PM	Just some thoughts: Magic energy is independent of the Weaves. Destroy the Weaves and you destroy the capacity to cast spells, but not the energy source itself. The god's won't neccessarily be destroyed with the destrucion of the Weaves. Gods existed in Realmspace long before the creation of the Weave and could operate just fine. I would consider destroying the Weave(s) to be a cataclysmic event. Something that changes the very laws of the world (just like the Weaves creation did in the beginning). The Weaves may be gone but the nature of magic could change as well to adapt to its abscence. Maybe all Faerunian inhabitants suddenly manifest psionic abilities without the Weave to suppress innate talents for example. Maybe Faerun becomes a modern earth like world with no magic or gods. Maybe something else all together. Perhaps the destruction of the Weave spins Faerun off into a World of Darkness like earth where nobody believes it exists anymore, but it still lives on in dark corners and secret societies.
Barmoz 06-25-04, 08:03 PM	I would say that it wouldn't have much impact on the actual weave. My reasoning is that when Karsus did his Karsus Avatar casting and the weave was in the process of unraveling, Mystra was able to correct and repair it by herself, more complicated than that of course, but the important fact is that the shadow weave wasn't involved. I am unfamiliar with the origins of the shadow weave, and perhaps it did not exist then, but if that's the case, then it's clear that they can exist seperate of each other. Additionally, isn't divine magic also tied to the weave? Mystra has the ability to sever a diety's connection to the weave and thus their ability to grant divine spells to their followers, so my thinking is that without the weave, you can't have divine magic either. Again, I could be completely wrong on all of my theories, mostly they're based on half remembered snippets of books in 3e, 2e, and assorted novels, not well researched or thought out.
WraithXIII 06-25-04, 08:33 PM	Quick points... 1. Mystra is the Weave. When Karsus pulled his little stunt, he mortally wounded Mystryl, and she had to sacrifice herself to actually help keep the Weave together. The next goddess of magic, Mystra, prohibited magic above ninth level to prevent such an event from occuring again. During the ToT, Mystra's severing from her home caused the erratic behavior of the Weave, and if it hadn't been for Elminster and Midnight, the Weave might have just ceased to exist with Mystra's death at Helm's hands. So its extremely dangerous to mess with the Weave, because it seems if the Weave is destroyed, it could have very bad effects on Faerun itself. 2. Just as divine magic is seperate from arcane, so to is a god's ability to grant spells to their followers. The power they give is of their own power, and also based on the amount of worshippers a god has. Antimagic fields affect both, so there might be some involvement of the Weave, it shouldn't completely negate any god's powers, only weaken them. So while Mystra COULD cut anyone out of the Weave, to do so would be to once again put herself and the Weave in danger, which was stated in either Faiths and Pantheons or TMoF. 3. All magic energy comes from the Weave. Case in point is the dead zones in the Weave. No magic will work in these areas period. Cthulu does bring up an excellent point though. How would Faerun be changed by the absence of the Weave? If I remember correctly, the Weave also enables life on Toril, though I would have to check on that. Maybe the Weave is a cousin of our ozone layer! ;)
yggdrasil 06-26-04, 09:46 AM	Very interesting... thanks all for your comments. So... if you had to do something to make shadow magic the only arcane magic available... what would you do? How would you weaken/destroy the weave to have this happen? Would you even go that far? Think big... this is a campaign that has been playing for two years... and probably has one more year in it - so, I don't mind cataclysmic... it must be big - its big in the players' minds - even if they don't know what it is all about. what of the city of shade "stealing" magical nexuses into the realm of shadow? What happens when a pool of radiance is taken in to the plane of shadow? or when mythals are "stolen"... or fairy crossroads... how complicated do you think the shadow magic must be to take a whole town, or area into the realm of shadow? If Mystra stopped spells of 10th level, does this restriction also apply to shadow magic... and if so, does this mean that mystra also (somehow) has control over shadow magic? And if not... could it perhaps be a 10th level spell that is "stealing" these places (one so far) into the plane of shadow.
perfectcrime 06-27-04, 01:45 PM	yggdrasil: How to weaken/destroy the Weave so that Shadow Magic is threatening to be all that is left? Destroy and make Mystra remain destroyed. No more Weave, no more goddess to attend to it. The probability for absolute success on this is highly unlikely. Mystra is too interconnected with mortals and other deities for this to be allowed to happen. Next best thing: an item or artifact with the means to, and or, a group of folks interested in damaging the Weave create areas of Dead and Wild magic within the Weave at near epidemic levels. With Shar's aid to countermand Mystra's intereference it might be possible to convince quite a few wizards that the Weave is unstable and no longer suitable for use. Word gets out and the switch is on...like switching from Coke to Pepsi (or vice-versa), if you know what I mean. A little sabotage sprinkled with subterfuge blended together nicely with a political ad campaign bolstering your product while slinging mud at the competitions and voila! Shadow Magic is the next big thing. Shade stealing magical nexuses into the Plane of Shadow? So...tell me where you want to go with this? Pool of Radiance brought into the Plane of Shadow...have you ever seen a depth charge dropped in an ocean? Probably in the pictures, so think of it like that. A Pool of Radiance is merely a depth charge dropped in the vast, vast exapanse of the ocean. A mere blip, if that. How many ranks in Pick Pocket do you have to have to steal a mythal? And for Fairy Crossroads isn't it that if you kill the guardian you kill the crossroad? That the two are linked? Shadow Magic would not have to be complicared to take down a whole town, or into the Plane of Shadow. It's the spellcasters...how many spellcasters on Toril who draw from the Shadow Weave are of sufficient level to make this happen? This is not saying you simply could not make a few more. Check out any number of Shadow Weave related threads over in Magic, Deities, & Cosmos for answers to some of your questions. As for answering your question about spells above 9th level from SW I ask that you please, please, please not get this one started again. The long and short of it is there are 2 distinct camps on this issue. The first believe it is possible based on a lack of clear definition about what Shar can and cannot do with her Weave. The second believe it is impossible based on several different amendments made by different authors, designers, what have you when the question was put to them for answers.
GothicDan 06-27-04, 02:12 PM	As I've stated on a few threads already: Shar and Selune were created directly from Ao, and so I think they have an essence that transcends all of the other deities. They were also able to cast magic without the Weave/Mystryl, so I think that at least Shar always accessed the Shadow Weave. That said, I think that the Shadow Weave is an extension of the Plane of Shadow itself, wrapping around Abeir-Toril, with a matrix of Weave strands around it, sort of like a cage/channeling system, allowing spellcasters to channel the energy without being hurt. Thus said, the SW is the space 'between the Weave' only because the Weave is on top of it, but it's something more. The magic that existed before the Weave (the Shadow Weave, in this case) would exist even after you destroyed the Weave, because to me it's older, a part of Shar/Selune themselves. Maybe Shar won its power from Selune in their struggles, which is why Selune has to rely on the Weave. I may be taking some liberties, but hey, in RPing, you take liberties to make things more appropriate and interesting.
yggdrasil 06-27-04, 02:22 PM	hey perfect crime... thanks for your great post. I had no idea that my last question had two mightily opposed camps: I'll do some trolling through the threads to get the gist of what was said. thanks - no intention to bring it up (again). Your "coke to pepsi" idea is very interesting. I'll spend some time to see if this will fit in my campaign and my big ending. It looks like it could. Hmmmm. How many ranks to steal mythal? *grin*... lots. :) But semi-seriously, it's got to hurt the prime material plane to take mythals and other very magical areas/items to the plane of shadow. My thinking is that these nexuses are like knots in the weave, with many strands running to and through them. If they were moved to the plane of shadow (which inverts them) not only would the knot no longer exist in faerun (thus making the weave a little bit weaker there), but would form a knot of shadow magic (thereby making it stronger). The other idea (which doesn't preclude the former) is to make these magical nexuses "batteries" for the shadovars to draw additional magical energy from. So, how do you move these nexuses to the plane of shadow? That all-encompassing move city spell, "metropolodissapearo" . I'll check out the Shadow Weave related threads over in Magic, Deities, & Cosmos... thanks.
warlockco 06-27-04, 02:24 PM	I would say that Shar and Selune were more on the scale of divine rank 21ish powers when they were first born and the magic they used was raw divine power, which resulted in creation and their loss of power.
yggdrasil 06-27-04, 02:27 PM	yeah - I had forgotten that shar was created by Ao. Hmmm. I like where you are going with this GothicDan. It is interesting to think of shadow magic as "older" than the regular weave. Maybe not accessible to mortals... until recently, but "older". Which would also indicate that they are mutually exclusive.
GothicDan 06-27-04, 02:33 PM	In regards to Selune and Shar once being 21ist ranked powers, it makes sense, and their power was reduced slightly when Mystryl was made of them, and the Weave. So, in essence, they are the creators of the Weave itself, though they don't have actual jurisdiction over it. But they WOULD have some insight into it, I'd say. I am a bit biased to the Shadow Weave, because I loved Shadows Mages in 2E and I love the deity Shar. :)
WraithXIII 06-27-04, 06:46 PM	Actually one of the above suggestions gave me two ideas to make it more plausible. 1. As stated above, have some baddie possess an artifact capable of making dead zones in the Weave. They can be repaired later, so you don't have to worry about whether or not it will come back, though repairing the Weave takes time. 2. All the Faerunian pantheon relies on their worshippers for their power. So...you have a country wide purge of priests and worshippers, you weaken Mystra. This however is the more dangerous of the two, most likely starting a war of some type, but that in itself could be the veil for the above action.
Crust 06-27-04, 07:00 PM	I think the destruction of the Weave would have to go hand-in-hand with the extinction of all "fantastic" creatures of the Realms, including all fey, magical beasts, abberations, dragons, oozes, elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, drow, orcs, and anything else that doesn't exist on planet Earth. The same way that Merlin's passing birthed the Age of Men... The same way the sailing of Gandalf and the elves to the Gray Havens birthed the Age of Men... So too would the destruction of the Weave start the Age of Men in the Realms. Ever notice how the continents in the FRCS look a lot like our continents? The Realms, Middle Earth... both are possible pasts of our own Earth, a mythology that, of course, didn't really happen, but might have, had cosmic (or divine) events occured differently. Of course, with the ending of the Weave, men would then find themselves relying heavily on technology, something that is obsolete in a magical world. Gunpowder, internal combustion, machinery, those things would take the place of magic, until newer things like computers and robots make miracles possible the same way magic did a milennia before. I've always wondered why thousands and thousand of years pass in the Realms, and the sword is still the most advanced weapon one could find in a weapon shop. Why is there this hamstringing of progress in the Realms? Why is it that after thousands and thousands of years the Realms is still trapped in a medieval-ish world? Perhaps it's because of the Weave's existence.
GothicDan 06-27-04, 07:25 PM	That is an... Interesting theory, but it's dead wrong, as far as I can tell. It's been stated, for example, that the elves, dwarves, etc., all migrated from other worlds, so obviously their existence is completely seperate from the Weave. If that was so, then when Netheril fell, for that single moment when the Weave was effectively dead, there would have been a world-wide genocide much beyond that of the Netherese Empire. Also, FR is inspired in some ways by our past, but it is not at all supposed to be a past version of Earth. After all, the Unther and Mulhorandi people were gated in from another world (presumably Earth, or another place where the cultures were similar).
Cthulhu 06-28-04, 12:00 AM	Originally posted by WraithXIII Quick points... 2. Just as divine magic is seperate from arcane, so to is a god's ability to grant spells to their followers. The power they give is of their own power, and also based on the amount of worshippers a god has. Antimagic fields affect both, so there might be some involvement of the Weave, it shouldn't completely negate any god's powers, only weaken them. So while Mystra COULD cut anyone out of the Weave, to do so would be to once again put herself and the Weave in danger, which was stated in either Faiths and Pantheons or TMoF. Divine magic definitely uses the Weave to create spells. While its true that cutting a god off from the Weave will only peripherally weaken him (his powers drawn from his portfolios are in some way independent of the Weave) this won't directly affect his ability to grant spells or clerics to cast them. But divine spells still use the spellcasting processes laid down by the Weave in order to operate. Theoretically Mystra could cut a cleric off from the Weave just like any other being. But this starts to cross the boundaries between divine portfolios (a cleric has his power to enact his patron gods portfolios, not because he is an arcane mage using the Weave to fulfill his own wishes [and which properly falls under Mystra's influence]). Cutting a cleric off from the Weave could be construed as an attack on that gods place in Faerun's universe. 3. All magic energy comes from the Weave. Case in point is the dead zones in the Weave. No magic will work in these areas period. Cthulu does bring up an excellent point though. How would Faerun be changed by the absence of the Weave? If I remember correctly, the Weave also enables life on Toril, though I would have to check on that. Maybe the Weave is a cousin of our ozone layer! ;) Technically the magic energy doesn't originate from the Weave, its only piped through it. Dead magic zones represents 'breaks' in the pipes (the Weave). No pipe...no magic.
Taelohn 06-28-04, 02:23 AM	That is an... Interesting theory, but it's dead wrong, as far as I can tell. I wouldn't go that far. I'd even say that he's probably very close to the mark. Not instantly, of course - it could take centuries, even thousands of years - but eventually, all those fantastic creatures would slowly become extinct. As the technology level skyrockets, they won't be able to compete without their magic. It's been stated that the deities of magic oppose the creation and introduction of too much technology - they want to hold it back. If they're gone, technology would fast become the driving force on that world. People will rely on it more and more... and you'll eventually end up with a world much more like this one.
Kuje31 06-28-04, 02:35 AM	Originally posted by GothicDan That said, I think that the Shadow Weave is an extension of the Plane of Shadow itself, wrapping around Abeir-Toril, with a matrix of Weave strands around it, sort of like a cage/channeling system, allowing spellcasters to channel the energy without being hurt.[/B] This is false. Both Rich Baker, who created the Shadow Weave, as well as Ed has said that neither Weaves extend to the planes and both Weaves only extend throughout Faerun or Toril, depending on which 3/3.5 sourcebook you want to read.
GothicDan 06-28-04, 03:40 AM	Kuje, in regards to your statement, I'd simply like to point out this statement that I made: "I may be taking some liberties, but hey, in RPing, you take liberties to make things more appropriate and interesting." That said, I said what I said, in regards to the Shadow Weave extending to the Plane of Shadow, because A) Shadow Weave magic is identical in many ways to the Shadow Mage/Shadow School in 2E, which is the basis and B) the Shades lived on the Plane of Shadow for years, so they developed their Shadow Adept class levels there. How could they have developed such magic while living in a place where Shadow Magic didn't work?
yggdrasil 06-28-04, 03:43 AM	This is false. Both Rich Baker, who created the Shadow Weave, as well as Ed has said that neither Weaves extend to the planes and both Weaves only extend throughout Faerun or Toril, depending on which 3/3.5 sourcebook you want to read. so, does this mean that the plane of shadow and shadow magic have little to nothing in common? Isn't shadow magic more powerful on the plane of shadow? Is it because of Shar's divine presence? One can cast spells on other planes, yes? Ethereal, astral... yadda yadda... so - there has to be some kind of weave... or weave influence... or something? Hasn't there? How does magic work on these planes otherwise?
Kuje31 06-28-04, 03:46 AM	Originally posted by yggdrasil so, does this mean that the plane of shadow and shadow magic have little to nothing in common? Isn't shadow magic more powerful on the plane of shadow? Is it because of Shar's divine presence? One can cast spells on other planes, yes? Ethereal, astral... yadda yadda... so - there has to be some kind of weave... or weave influence... or something? Hasn't there? How does magic work on these planes otherwise? First of all Shadow magic and Shadow Weave magic are two different things. Shadow magic still uses the Weave. Shadow Weave magic does not. Yes you can cast spells on the planes, BUT none of the Weaves extend to the planes and they have NEVER done so. The planes themselves change how magic is cast, unless you are in the deities realms then the deities change how magic is cast, except in the plane of Dweomerheart since Mystra controls the whole plane. Casting magic on the planes HAS NOTHING to do with the Weaves because the Weaves DO NOT extend to the planes.
Kuje31 06-28-04, 03:50 AM	Originally posted by GothicDan That said, I said what I said, in regards to the Shadow Weave extending to the Plane of Shadow, because A) Shadow Weave magic is identical in many ways to the Shadow Mage/Shadow School in 2E, which is the basis and B) the Shades lived on the Plane of Shadow for years, so they developed their Shadow Adept class levels there. How could they have developed such magic while living in a place where Shadow Magic didn't work? [/B] Shadow Weave magic still works on the planes, but it comes from the plane itself it does NOT come from Shar's Shadow Weave, since there are two game designers and sourcebooks that back this up. One of those game designers is the one who created the Shadow Weave. This isn't any different then how normal magic works on the planes but magic does not come from the Weaves when on the planes. And no the Shadow Mage and Shadow Magic is not the basis of the Shadow Weave since Shadow magic is still drawn from the normal Weave, not the Shadow Weave.
GothicDan 06-28-04, 03:51 AM	First of all, Shadow Magic a la 2E only accesses the Weave because there was no Shadow Weave in 2E. I think that the Shadow Weave IS the modern manifestation of Shadow Magic. Second of all, the question is in the air regarding the Shades having Shadow Adept levels while never being on Abeir-Toril long enough to actually gain them while being there. So, this discontinuity truly leaves the discussion in the air. I'm merely trying to suggest something that ties together information appropriately and thematically, something that 3E apparently chose to ignore when they were updating the campaign setting.
GothicDan 06-28-04, 03:53 AM	I'm washing my hands of this discussion because I'm favoring logic and thematic situation over rules made by two people who don't even seem to share the same take on the mechanics of the game (Ed living 2E, Baker liking 3E). Sorry for causing any trouble.
Kuje31 06-28-04, 03:57 AM	Originally posted by GothicDan First of all, Shadow Magic a la 2E only accesses the Weave because there was no Shadow Weave in 2E. I think that the Shadow Weave IS the modern manifestation of Shadow Magic. Second of all, the question is in the air regarding the Shades having Shadow Adept levels while never being on Abeir-Toril long enough to actually gain them while being there. So, this discontinuity truly leaves the discussion in the air. I'm merely trying to suggest something that ties together information appropriately and thematically, something that 3E apparently chose to ignore when they were updating the campaign setting. Ah but there was a Shadow Weave in 2e since it was first written about in a 2e novel. :) 3e did not ignore it cause the Shadow Weave only exists in the spaces between the Weave and it says plainly in Magic of Faerun that the Weave does not extend to the planes and it has never done so. And if you read the 3e Manual of the Planes as well as the Player's Guide both plainly say that the Plane's themselves change how magic is cast, it has zero, zip, notta to do with the Weaves. And sorry but Ed's words are canon, unless WOTC decides to change them, because that's in his contract with TSR/WOTC, and there is nothing to date that conflicts with what he said about the Shadow Weave and it backs up with Rich said. From my FAQ: Can or should a Weave Caster, be able to cast spells when away from Toril? Yes they can but they use the magic of the planes or the restrictions of the worlds they are on. Elminster has visited Greyhawk and he could cast spells just fine. Khelben the Younger lived on Greyhawk or still does and he can cast spells just fine. Primes from Faerun have gone to the planes and they can cast spells just fine. The magic of the planes give them the ability to do so. Only on Faerun/Toril are they restricted to Mystra's Weave or Shar's Shadow Weave. If a person from Realmspace went to Krynn they would be restricted by the three lunar deities. Page 54 of the FRCS, “Mystra has dominion over magic worked throughout Toril…” Page 55 of the FRCS, "Human's refer to the entity or awareness that is bound to the Weave of Toril as Mystra..." Page 9 of Magic of Faerun, “The Weave is present in everything in Faerun….” Page 11 of Magic of Faerun, “Mystra can also bar a deity from accessing the Weave, which would prevent the deity from using magic in Faerun but not while the deity was on another plane where the Weave does not exist, such as any of the planar homes of the deities.” Richard Baker posted on 04-06-04 at 01:13 PM: "I'd presume that the Shadow Weave had the same geographical extent has the Weave itself (excepting things like dead magic areas, where the Shadow Weave works just fine). Ed Greenwood wrote: “As for the Shadow Weave question, Ed had this to say: Rich Baker is THE expert on the Shadow Weave, but I certainly agree with him that it extends only as far as the Weave itself does: that is, throughout the Prime Material Plane of Toril (or the crystal sphere of Realmspace, if you prefer), NOT onto other planes. The best way to think of the Shadow Weave is this: it’s the echo, or literally the shadow, of the Weave itself, and therefore can’t exist where the Weave doesn’t – and the Weave, in turn, is our mortal name for the flows of natural energy we call “magic” because we can harness it (spells, spell-like powers, psionics, et al being the ways in which we accomplish that harnessing), that permeate Toril and are an integral part of all life in, on, and in the atmosphere of Toril. Such natural flows, and magic, exist on other planes, and permit travel and energy flows from plane to plane, but only on Toril are the flows known as the Weave, administered by Mystra, and possess a ‘Shadow Weave.’ Elsewhere, there may or may not be similar ‘dark counterparts’ to the forces spellcasters can harness as magic, but those counterparts, if they exist, aren’t linked to the Shadow Weave, part of the Shadow Weave, or governable in precisely the same way as the Shadow Weave (i.e. a character who can harness the Shadow Weave on Toril can’t necessarily reliably use any similar ‘dark weave’ on another plane. For that matter, spellcasters using the Weave on Toril often get a few surprises when they try to use (or regain) spells while on other planes. Not everything works the same – and results can also vary over time and location, and from individual to individual. Travel away from home, as they say, is always an adventure. :}”
GothicDan 06-28-04, 04:15 AM	Okay, I lied. I'm bored and there's been new evidence brought up. Okay, so since new information was brought to the discussion, I'm not washing my hands of it. The Shadow Stone novel was originally supposed to be a Birthright setting, first of all, and Birthright had a Plane of Shadow entirely different from the primary plane of Cerilia. So, if anything, that means that the Shadow Weave as presented in that novel was planned to be linked to another plane. Second of all, I never saw a mention of the Shadow Weave in a true FR sourcebook, so I discount that novel altogether. So, thus, it's still left up in the air as to how the Shades use Shadow Weave Magic on the Plane of Shadow. No where does it say that any other plane has 'shadow weave energy' that can create Shadow Weave magic. Also, Shadow Mages were presented in the 2E Player's Options books, which came out before the Shadowstone book did, so even if you cite that as the '2E Shadow Weave' (which it isn't), then there's still a gap of time that there are Shadow Mages on Faerun (taken from Player's Options) before there is any mention of a Shadow Weave, and these Shadow Mages are said to draw energy directly from the Plane of Shadow - no matter where they are. If anything, it seems like the Shadow Weave is dark energy left over from the creation of the cosmos (the original energy that Shar and Selune might have used to cast magic), which was actually energy from the Plane of Shadow - which would make sense, considering the ORIGINAL Plane of Shadow was part Positive Energy and part Negative Energy (which would apply to each sister). So even if the Shadow Weave isn't connected to any other planes (which I think it should be, because it ties in sources better and is more thematic), then it is probably at the very least still residue from the Plane of Shadow that existed before the Weave was created. So when the Weave WAS decreased, it displaced the areas of shadow energy and 'pushed' it away from where the web of Weave energy was laid down. But, once more, this is creative license. Plus a little bit of research, intelligence, and creativity. :)
Kuje31 06-28-04, 04:20 AM	Originally posted by GothicDan Okay, I lied. I'm bored and there's been new evidence brought up. Okay, so since new information was brought to the discussion, I'm not washing my hands of it. The Shadow Stone novel was originally supposed to be a Birthright setting, first of all, and Birthright had a Plane of Shadow entirely different from the primary plane of Cerilia. So, if anything, that means that the Shadow Weave as presented in that novel was planned to be linked to another plane. Second of all, I never saw a mention of the Shadow Weave in a true FR sourcebook, so I discount that novel altogether. So, thus, it's still left up in the air as to how the Shades use Shadow Weave Magic on the Plane of Shadow. No where does it say that any other plane has 'shadow weave energy' that can create Shadow Weave magic. Also, Shadow Mages were presented in the 2E Player's Options books, which came out before the Shadowstone book did, so even if you cite that as the '2E Shadow Weave' (which it isn't), then there's still a gap of time that there are Shadow Mages on Faerun (taken from Player's Options) before there is any mention of a Shadow Weave, and these Shadow Mages are said to draw energy directly from the Plane of Shadow - no matter where they are. If anything, it seems like the Shadow Weave is dark energy left over from the creation of the cosmos (the original energy that Shar and Selune might have used to cast magic), which was actually energy from the Plane of Shadow - which would make sense, considering the ORIGINAL Plane of Shadow was part Positive Energy and part Negative Energy (which would apply to each sister). So even if the Shadow Weave isn't connected to any other planes (which I think it should be, because it ties in sources better and is more thematic), then it is probably at the very least still residue from the Plane of Shadow that existed before the Weave was created. So when the Weave WAS decreased, it displaced the areas of shadow energy and 'pushed' it away from where the web of Weave energy was laid down. But, once more, this is creative license. Plus a little bit of research, intelligence, and creativity. :) But you also forgetting the Curse of the Shadow King novels which prove that Shadow Magic is Weave only. And no duh the Shadow Stone was originally written for Birthright, but it was rewritten for FR. However, Birthright was still a part of the multiverse so no it didn't have a seperate Plane of Shadow it had the same Plane of Shadow that was part of the Ethereal that connected to every Prime World. Doesn't matter now though since FR's Plane of Shadow is not the same Plane of Shadow that is part of the Wheel/Ring, etc. And sorry but again the Player's Guide to Faerun says that the PLANE IT SELF changes how magic is cast, so again neither Weaves extend to the darn planes! The Shadow Weave can't be older then the Weave, page 11 of Magic of Faerun, "Shar modeled her creation on Mystra's." Mystra didn't exist until after Netheril fell! However you are right a later novel changed that.
GothicDan 06-28-04, 04:31 AM	It's almost 4:30 am in the morning. Disregard my horrible spelling and grammar. I never said that the Shadow Weave or the Weave 'extended to the planes.' Certainly not the Weave. I said that I believed the Shadow Weave to be an extension, or a seperated part of, the Plane of Shadow. Just as your hand is an extension of your body, but your body is not usually considered an extension of your hand. And any further discussion about the Planes I feel is irrelevant, because I'm talking about the Planes from a 2E mechanics point of view, and thus the Great Wheel cosmology. I'm sorry if I don't want to be forcefed things down my throat when I find a more interesting way of looking at things. Ah well, I guess that's why I don't play 3E. :) Oh, and it was pointed out SPECIFICALLY that the Cerilian Plane of Shadows WAS different than the Great Wheel's Plane. It was more like the Border Ethereal.
Kuje31 06-28-04, 04:38 AM	Originally posted by GothicDan It's almost 4:30 am in the morning. Disregard my horrible spelling and grammar. I never said that the Shadow Weave or the Weave 'extended to the planes.' Certainly not the Weave. I said that I believed the Shadow Weave to be an extension, or a seperated part of, the Plane of Shadow. And this would be wrong unless you are using house rules. :) Since it doesn't extend to the Planes and it never did, no matter which cosmology you are using. Hence Ed's words of "Realmspace". Extend/Extension, same difference. You didnt? "That said, I think that the Shadow Weave is an extension of the Plane of Shadow itself, wrapping around Abeir-Toril, with a matrix of Weave strands around it, sort of like a cage/channeling system, allowing spellcasters to channel the energy without being hurt." Sure looks like I see the word extension there, which is wrong because again NEITHER Weaves exist outside of Realmspace if you are using the multiverse.
GothicDan 06-28-04, 04:45 AM	"Since it doesn't extend to the Planes and it never did, no matter which cosmology you are using." First of all, you're once more referring to the fact that there might have been a 2E version of the Shadow Weave, which there was NOT unless you count the Shadowstone book, which no 2E game product that I saw ever did, so it should -not- be counted as canon for 2E. So that means, by default, that any discussion I have of the Shadow Weave in reference to 2E is house rules. :) And a damn better explanation than anyone at WOTC has made, IMO. Otherwise - what happened to all of the Shadow Mages in Faerun? Also, as you can see, I say that the Shadow Weave extended FROM the Shadow Plane in my 2E cockney multiverse view of things, not that the Shadow Weave extended TO other planes. It has to do with place of origin in relative terms.
Kuje31 06-28-04, 04:53 AM	Originally posted by GothicDan "Since it doesn't extend to the Planes and it never did, no matter which cosmology you are using." First of all, you're once more referring to the fact that there might have been a 2E version of the Shadow Weave, which there was NOT unless you count the Shadowstone book, which no 2E game product that I saw ever did, so it should -not- be counted as canon for 2E. Wrong again because novels have always been canon in FR going back to 1987 and it doesn't matter if they are written up in a sourcebook or not, because they are still canon if it is only in a novel. So sorry but there was a Shadow Weave in 2e and it did not extend to the planes, nor was it a extension of the Shadow Plane. Oh btw you did say it extended to the planes, "That said, I said what I said, in regards to the Shadow Weave extending to the Plane of Shadow, because A) Shadow Weave magic is identical in many ways to the Shadow Mage/Shadow School in 2E, which is the basis and B) the Shades lived on the Plane of Shadow for years, so they developed their Shadow Adept class levels there." Furthermore it makes less sense to claim that the Shadow Weave extended or was a extension of the Shadow Plane since Shar doesn't even reside in the Shadow Plane in the multiverse. But now you and I are just debating your house rules instead of the canon rules of 2e's multiverse or 3e's cosmology, so I'm going to bed since it's 5 AM and this is getting annoying.
GothicDan 06-28-04, 04:59 AM	I find debating fun. I love it. In any event, there's one nugget of information that I just remembered that basically makes both of us right. Using 2E information: all shadows terminate in the Plane of Shadow. Using 3E information: the Shadow Weave is a 'shadow' of the Weave (exact words). Thus, it terminates in the Plane of Shadow. ;) Good night for me too.
Kuje31 06-28-04, 01:00 PM	Originally posted by GothicDan I find debating fun. I love it. In any event, there's one nugget of information that I just remembered that basically makes both of us right. Using 2E information: all shadows terminate in the Plane of Shadow. Using 3E information: the Shadow Weave is a 'shadow' of the Weave (exact words). Thus, it terminates in the Plane of Shadow. ;) Good night for me too. No it doesn't because the game designer who created the darn thing says it does not. If, as we know, the Shadow Weave is the spaces between the Weave, then why in the Nine Hells would the Shadow Weave extend or be an extension of the Shadow Plane, even though the plane itself in both 1/2/3/3.5 changes how magic is cast, when the Weave doesn't not extend or is not an extension of the Planes, then how can the Shadow Weave do that when it only exists in the same area that Weave exists? Sorry but again, you are using house rules, not the canon material. And if you are NOT using 3e material then the Shade Enclave wouldn't even worship or venerate Shar because that enclave worshipped Tyche, and until 3e we didn't know what happened to it only that it left Faerun and entered the Shadow Plane. And you mixing words. Your shadow might extend to the Plane of Shadows, but a shadow of some thing, I.E, I am a shadow of my former self or the Shadow Weave is a shadow of the Weave, means a whole different thing, and thus it does not extend or is not an extension of the Shadow Plane. You are also forgetting that both Weaves are only filters for magic found on Realmspace/Toril/Faerun, depending on which book you want to read. There are no Weaves found on the Planes, Greyhawk, Krynn, Athas, Birthright, and the countless Prime Worlds. It's pretty arrogant, if you are using the multiverse, to believe that one single sphere deity from a backwater Prime world has power enough to effect the whole Plane of Shadow, even though she doesn't even reside on the Plane of Shadow in the multiverse.
yggdrasil 06-28-04, 01:53 PM	okay... I have been following the discussion with avid interest, and I am sorry to say that I haven't had anything worthwhile to add to the discussion: my knowledge of the planes, deities, et al (or rather lack thereof) is what precipitated my post to this forum to begin ith. That said, I can (heretically) say that I am not too concerned with keeping it within "canon" FR: if it fits I'll use it otherwise I'll tweak what is necessary; as my players only experience FR through the game I am running; don't read the novels and aren't "experts" on the rules of cosmology et al. So I can get away with stuff that's "just plain wrong". :) I do have a question however (probably dumb - sorry): How is shadow magic different from shadow weave magic? And whilst in the plain of shadow, where did the shadovars get their magical energy from? Kuje: How would you go about threatening/destroying the weave, empowering the shadow weave? If you believe that they are independent of each other?
Kuje31 06-28-04, 02:25 PM	Originally posted by yggdrasil I do have a question however (probably dumb - sorry): How is shadow magic different from shadow weave magic? And whilst in the plain of shadow, where did the shadovars get their magical energy from? Kuje: How would you go about threatening/destroying the weave, empowering the shadow weave? If you believe that they are independent of each other? [/B] Shadow magic is still channeled through the Weave, while Shadow Weave Magic is channeled through the Shadow Weave, unless the person using shadow magic is a Shadow Weave Caster, then its channeled through the Shadow Weave. So basically Shadow Magic is just another form of magic, like rune magic, or divine magic, or arcane magic, or high magic, or song magic, or circle magic, etc. How would I go about it? I have no idea because I don't use the Shadow Weave. However, if the Weave is destroyed then the Shadow Weave would still exist, or vice versa, so says the sourcebooks and the game designers. However if you wanted to destroy the Weave, then you would have to kill Mystra. Mystra is the Weave and the Weave is Mystra. So in effect you would basically be removing all nonShadow Weave Magic from the world. While in the Plane of Shadow the Shadovers got thier magic from the plane itself, just like any one else living on any of the planes, since the planes themselves supply magic, not the Weaves, because neither Weaves extend or are extension of any of the planes, since the Weaves are Realmspace/Toril/Faerun ONLY.
GothicDan 06-28-04, 04:00 PM	(Stupid double posts)
GothicDan 06-28-04, 04:06 PM	The funniest thing is that I was only being half-serious through most of this argument, and I stated, several times, that I was taking creative license. ;) And I re-read part of the Shadow Stone novel last night, and if anything, it only confirms my BELIEF (not the CANON FACT) that the Shadow Weave SHOULD be tied to the Plane of Shadow. Yup. But obviously it's not, but I think it would be very appropriate if it WAS. Also: the Shadovars were able to gain Shadow Adept levels by drawing on the natural magic of the Plane of Shadow, where the Shadow Weave was not. Okay. Yet, that means that the Shadow Plane's natural magic HAS to be inherently very similar to (I wouldn't go as far as saying 'the same') as the type of energy filtered through the Shadow Weave, since Shadow Adepts draw from the Shadow Weave. So thus, there is definitely some sort of connection, even if it isn't planar/physical. Last, we haven't seen any proof of direct Shadow Magic (as in, the School of Shadow and the Shadow Mage class) existing in 3E yet, as far as I can tell. In 2E, Shadow Magic was basically the theory that all shadows terminated/were connected to the Plane of Shadow, and that the Plane of Shadow was an admixture of Positive and Negative energy, from which one could mold 'shadowstuff' into various semi-corporeal forms. Hence the Shadow Evocation, Shadow Monsters, etc. spells. In 2E Shadow Mages were strong in the School of Shadow, which as a light rule included certain spells from the schools of Necromancy, Illusion/Phantasm, and Enchantment/Charm. They were unable to cast spells from the schools of Evocation and Abjuration. The closest we've seen to a 3E model of the 2E Shadow Mage is the Shadow Adept, which is what spawned my entire original idea of the Shadow Weave being connected to the Plane of Shadow. If Shar created the Shadow Weave, it would also make sense if she took its energy from her own realm's material on the Plane of Shadow, and wove it out of that shadowstuff. But, before I start getting yelled at for being so pretentious as to actually make assertations from the ways canon strays, I'll say that this is only an RPing possibility.
Kuje31 06-28-04, 04:34 PM	Originally posted by GothicDan Yet, that means that the Shadow Plane's natural magic HAS to be inherently very similar to (I wouldn't go as far as saying 'the same') as the type of energy filtered through the Shadow Weave, since Shadow Adepts draw from the Shadow Weave. So thus, there is definitely some sort of connection, even if it isn't planar/physical. Last, we haven't seen any proof of direct Shadow Magic (as in, the School of Shadow and the Shadow Mage class) existing in 3E yet, as far as I can tell. In 2E, Shadow Magic was basically the theory that all shadows terminated/were connected to the Plane of Shadow, and that the Plane of Shadow was an admixture of Positive and Negative energy, from which one could mold 'shadowstuff' into various semi-corporeal forms. The closest we've seen to a 3E model of the 2E Shadow Mage is the Shadow Adept, which is what spawned my entire original idea of the Shadow Weave being connected to the Plane of Shadow. If Shar created the Shadow Weave, it would also make sense if she took its energy from her own realm's material on the Plane of Shadow, and wove it out of that shadowstuff. [/B] No actually the closest thing to the old shadow casters are the shadow spells that are in the 3/3.5 PHB and since those are arcane magic they either draw on the Weave or the Shadow Weave, depending if the caster is a Weave user or a Shadow Weave user, since those two Weaves filter all magic in Realmspace/Toril/Fearun. Now if you leave Realmspace/Toril/Faerun and head to the planes then it is filtered through the plane itself. Or if you go to Greyhawk, then those spells work how ever magic in Greyhawk works, or if you went to Krynn then you would be restricted by the three lunar deities. I never claimed that the Shadow Plane doesn't have similiar effects that the Shadow Weave has as well. And actually this is backed up by the sourcebooks since FR's Shadow Plane increases and decreases certain types of magic when you are on the Shadow Plane. Page 162 of the Player's Guide, "The Shadow Plane has the following traits. Enhanced magic. Spells with the shadow descriptor (see here we see again that there are shadow spells as I said, since they are in the PHB) are maximized, as though the Maximized Spell feat has been applied, they they do not require higher-level spell slots or longer than normal casting times. Furthermore, specific spells are more powerful on the Plane of Shadow then they are elsewhere. (See here again we see the PLANE itself changes magic, no Weaves does it). I cut the rest cause that is a long paragraph to type. :) Furthermore, we don't know what part of the Plane of Shadow the Shade Enclave resided in. They could have resided in Shar's Realm, thus being able to use her enhancement's that she as a deity decided to impliment, which give them an increase in thier magic. However, this does not mean that the Shadow Weave extended to the Shadow Plane nor was it an extension to her realm in the Shadow Plane. The Weaves ONLY exist within Realmspace/Toril/Faerun, again depending on which 2e/3e/3.5 book you want to use.
GothicDan 06-28-04, 04:52 PM	Broken record much? "No actually the closest thing to the old shadow casters are the shadow spells that are in the 3/3.5 PHB and since those are arcane magic they either draw on the Weave or the Shadow Weave, depending if the caster is a Weave user or a Shadow Weave user, since those two Weaves filter all magic in Realmspace/Toril/Fearun. " First of all, I think that Shadow Adepts are the closest that 3/3.5 has come to Shadow Mages. There's absolutely nothing that you can say against that, because it's pure opinion. That's like saying that just because there's fire-based spells in the PHB that it somehow means that there's an equivalent to the Elementalist in 3E. I think not. Since there are no rules stating explicitely: 'Shadow Adepts are not based on the ideas of the Shadow Mage class,' then I can think whatever I want of possible inspiration without being wrong by canon standards. "Now if you leave Realmspace/Toril/Faerun and head to the planes then it is filtered through the plane itself. Or if you go to Greyhawk, then those spells work how ever magic in Greyhawk works, or if you went to Krynn then you would be restricted by the three lunar deities." I have played D&D for half my life. Even if that may not be as long as you, or some others, I think that means I have a pretty good idea of how magic relates to the various planes. And, by the way, if you say that Shadow Adepts' powers can exist on other planes of existence, that's like saying that a Red-Robed High Sorcerer can gain the benefits of Luinitari on another plane of existence. I think not. "I never claimed that the Shadow Plane doesn't have similiar effects that the Shadow Weave has as well. And actually this is backed up by the sourcebooks since FR's Shadow Plane increases certain types of magic when you are on the Shadow Plane." Thus, the Plane of Shadow and the Shadow Weave are manifestations of similar energy. What's wrong with tying them together for ROLEPLAYING purposes? If we only went by everything that canon said, we would NEVER roleplay. We'd just be reading sourcebooks and novels. "But for the last time, neither of the Weaves extend or are extension of the planes. They ONLY exist within Realmspace/Toril/Faerun, again depending on which 2e/3e/3.5 book you want to use." I already stated MANY times now, that my views were based off of relating themes and concepts that I put together through creative license. Yggdrassil has already stated that he doesn't care about canon if there are more interesting alternatives that he would like to incorporate into his setting, and that's exactly what I'm trying to reccommend. This is not a discussion between me and you, it's a discussion in regards to the various possibilities of the Shadow Weave and the Weave interacting, and the opinions of people regarding this. I'm giving my opinion. There's nothing new that you've brought to my knowledge about the Shadow Weave or the Weave that changes my opinion on how things should/would interact, based off of my own opinion. That's all he's asking for. That said, I'm really leaving this discussion now. It's making me regret ever having come to these boards. I'm sorry if my suggestions weren't up to par, Yggdrassil. If they were, you're welcome to take any of my ideas as you like.
Kuje31 06-28-04, 05:30 PM	Originally posted by GothicDan Broken record much? I have played D&D for half my life. Even if that may not be as long as you, or some others, I think that means I have a pretty good idea of how magic relates to the various planes. And, by the way, if you say that Shadow Adepts' powers can exist on other planes of existence, that's like saying that a Red-Robed High Sorcerer can gain the benefits of Luinitari on another plane of existence. I think not. Thus, the Plane of Shadow and the Shadow Weave are manifestations of similar energy. What's wrong with tying them together for ROLEPLAYING purposes? If we only went by everything that canon said, we would NEVER roleplay. We'd just be reading sourcebooks and novels. Yeah I can say the same, broken record much? It's kind of funny that you corrected Crust for giving his opinion and you shot him down for it. However, when I corrected you on your opinion you got all defensive. Um then how did Dalamar continue to use his MAGIC, that came from the dark lunar god, when he was on Faerun or when he visited Earth? I also wonder how all those casters from Dragonlance managed to cast on the Planes when there was no lunar deities either. Yes Shadow Adepts can exist on other planes of existance since there are Shadow Adepts in Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Faerun, and other vast Prime Worlds that have nothing to do with the Weaves, and the Shadow Adapts only have every thing to do with the Plane of Shadow or Planes of Shadow since each cosmology now has a seperate and different Plane of Shadow. There's nothing wrong with tying them together except that all the game designers and sourcebooks say otherwise. I said that before over and over again and if you wanted to debate your house rules that's fine, but you did not state that was so when I first corrected you. However, no the Plane of Shadow and the Shadow Weave are not manifestations of the similiar energy. One is a plane where souls go, where gods live, where creatures live, etc. The other is a filter of magic on one backwater prime world that is watched over by a deity, there is a major difference there. But if I was playing in some ones campaign and they tried to tell me that the Shadow Weave extended or was an extension of the Plane of Shadow and they didn't have a very good reason why this was so, it would shatter my suspension of belief. Since the Shadow Weave and the Weave are Realmspace/Toril/Faerun specific and only filter magic on that world or that crystal sphere.
WraithXIII 06-28-04, 06:23 PM	yggdrasil Well, there you have it. The exact reason you need to play it your way and not allow the KIA's to dictate how you play. Find The Magic of Faerun sourcebook and make your adventure from there. It's your game, most likely your house rules invovled, and so long as you don't get too outlandish, I am sure that it will be a great game. Let me know how it turns out, my man, even if it takes a month or two.
Kuje31 06-28-04, 06:38 PM	Originally posted by WraithXIII yggdrasil Well, there you have it. The exact reason you need to play it your way and not allow the KIA's to dictate how you play. Find The Magic of Faerun sourcebook and make your adventure from there. It's your game, most likely your house rules invovled, and so long as you don't get too outlandish, I am sure that it will be a great game. Let me know how it turns out, my man, even if it takes a month or two. What's KIA stand for? I'm curious. :) And yes, I never said he couldn't change his world, but as a PC and even as a DM I'd like to know the hows and whys and whens and whats that prompted such a change to the setting other wise it would shatter my belief. :) Like for my version of Faerun, every change that I have made to the world has a in game explaination and if it didn't it would bother me.
yggdrasil 06-29-04, 03:56 AM	thanks to everyone who participated in this post - I learnt a lot... both great canon and cool opinion. What I have come to realize, reading these posts, is that whatever I do, it has got to be solid. It has to have history and be a complicated many threaded process. It isn't a simple bad guy/good guy thing: Shar wakes up, and bored decides to take out Mystra, tells her priests, and now the PCs are rushing to complete a ritual to protect the entire fate of the Weave. Admittedly, I was never going to do something so hackneyed, but now think I must make something even more complicated and profound than I was originally thinking. Hmmm... all of you have definitely helped. Seriously - thanks. It's got me thinking... :D
Kuje31 06-29-04, 09:17 PM	Well after starting the 2nd Cale novel, maybe you could devise an artifact or some thing like that, that uses both Weaves together and would slowly absorb Mystra's Weave into Shar or Shar's Weave..... Does it work? That's up to you to decide, or for the PC's to find out or stop. :)
mortellan 06-29-04, 10:49 PM	Forgive me for digging this topic up again. What then IS the advantage of Shadow Adepts in FR vs. say an Adept in DL?