Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ebrion 06-25-07, 07:16 AM	I am currently in the process of creating a somewhat modern Forgotten Realms setting. Think of a early 1900's U.S. or U.K. There is eletricity, but really only in the city. A few modern amenties, but there is still the same amount of magic. I am working up a history to cover the time from old Realms to modern. I am going to up date the map and and a few key major cities. (ie. Waterdeep) There will be a few modern arms, but they will still be unreliable. What I am looking for are suggestions from the you guys and maybe some notes from some who might have done something like it. TY
Azkorra 06-25-07, 07:48 AM	Personally, I'd love the idea of a steampunked Forgotten Realms setting and would even go a step further than you might have intended. (although I know that even the mere thought of it might attract the ire of some of the hardliners here on board ;) ) I'd think a known setting with drastic changes towards modernism, including airships, simple planes only for military purposes, simple kinds of tanks and other military vehicles, basic power stations and the like would be quite exciting. All kinds of "cyberstuff", every kind of electronics etc., however, would not yet be even thought of. Regarding politics, you could introduce "modern" kinds of ruling systems, such as democracy, communism or military dictatorship. Summed up, I can imagine quite an interesting setting with the technological and social level of the late 19th / early 20th century (perhaps 1870-1930). In this context, a race for colonies and the interaction with other continents would also make quite good sense.
XHereticX 06-25-07, 08:56 AM	I am currently in the process of creating a somewhat modern Forgotten Realms setting. Think of a early 1900's U.S. or U.K. There is eletricity, but really only in the city. A few modern amenties, but there is still the same amount of magic. I am working up a history to cover the time from old Realms to modern. I am going to up date the map and and a few key major cities. (ie. Waterdeep) There will be a few modern arms, but they will still be unreliable. What I am looking for are suggestions from the you guys and maybe some notes from some who might have done something like it. TY You can draw a lot of good reasources watching animes, which tend to be very magical 1900s/1800s centered. Plus check out Eberron, it has all that magic/steampunk flare with trains and airships and all if you are into that kind of stuff.
Zandilar 06-25-07, 08:59 AM	Heya, Don't want to upset your apple cart here, but I'm fairly sure physics don't work the same way on Faerun as they do on Earth... and one of the differences is - no electricity. It simply cannot be harnessed the same way. GothicDan would probably be able to give you more information about that. (I think! :D)
Ebrion 06-25-07, 01:48 PM	Thanks for the ideas and support. Like I said it is still in the development stage. And I will be posting Its progress. As for the Physics question, I have not yet decided how to work some of the "modern" things with a magic edge. For example, electricity, I could go with some kind of genorator( wind, hydro-electric, ect.) or a more magical approach (a captured wind elemental, a bunch of p***ed off shocker lizards in a jar). But please any suggestions are welcome.
Shiftkitty 06-25-07, 03:58 PM	Look for a copy of "Amazing Engine: For King and Faerie". It's a D&D take on the Victorian Age and could serve as a great sourcebook (or "swipe file" as we artist -types like to call them) for your campaign. "Castle Falkenstein" should also be useful, and you may want to pick up the accessory to it called "Comme Il Faut", which covers mannerisms and social customs of the day. Come to think of it, any of the accessory books will be helpful. I've made extensive use of "Sixguns and Sorcery". If you need further meat, go for the classics! Bram Stoker, Mary Shelley, and anything taking a good, creepy look at Jack the Ripper will do. Also get to know H.H. Holmes (just not too closely...) His murderous mansion would make a cool dungeon module. If only it hadn't been real...
Eladrinstar 06-25-07, 04:27 PM	The whole "no electricity" thing is stupid. I would ignore it.
Esnapand 06-25-07, 06:51 PM	There was a computer RPG called Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura developed by Troika Games that was set in a fantasy world consiting of magic and steampunk elements. Maybe that is some kind of reference to what you want to do. However, I do not know if you can lay your hands on it in a shop or somewhere like this. Maybe ebay...
Zandilar 06-25-07, 07:34 PM	Heya, Thanks for the ideas and support. Like I said it is still in the development stage. And I will be posting Its progress. As for the Physics question, I have not yet decided how to work some of the "modern" things with a magic edge. For example, electricity, I could go with some kind of genorator( wind, hydro-electric, ect.) or a more magical approach (a captured wind elemental, a bunch of p***ed off shocker lizards in a jar). But please any suggestions are welcome. Magictech is probably the best way to go, IMHO - use things like elementals and mass produced magic (how powerful would Mystra be in such a world?! :eek: ). You might want to look at places like Halruaa or Lantan for ideas, look back at Netheril and Imaskar - and maybe even some of the concepts included in Eberron might also serve as a launching point.
Old Sage 06-25-07, 08:00 PM	Zandilar is indeed correct. And it is not "stupid" either. It's simply the way the world has been built. So, if we're taking about modern tech (or any type of derivative for that matter) that would run on electronic components or use electricity for power... it simply doesn't work in the Realms. We know this from the 1e and 2e FRCS box sets. To put it simply, the physics of Toril/Realmspace won't allow such aspects to function.
Shiftkitty 06-25-07, 08:01 PM	Is that the "MagiTech" from the Amazing Engine series? I have it, but I thought it would be too modern for the OP.
Old Sage 06-25-07, 08:02 PM	If you're looking for an example of a tech-level allowed in the Realms... see the "DaRoni's Workshop" section in Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue, which provides a sampling of siege engines and other weapons of war. They're inspired by da Vinci's own work on military and siege engines while he was in Florence.
Ebrion 06-26-07, 01:22 AM	I am not going very advanced tech wise. Simple things like Light bulbs and maybe a telegraph system. I am still not sure about small combustion engines. Steam will be a factor though for thing like trains. But keeping things clear, magic and tech will be in total conjunction. It's not going to be a what can we do without magic, or a how can we bypass the weave. That is not going to be physically possible. Mystyra & the other gods will make sure that the people of Toril are dependant on the weave as hey have always been.
Eladrinstar 06-26-07, 01:47 AM	Zandilar is indeed correct. And it is not "stupid" either. It's simply the way the world has been built. So, if we're taking about modern tech (or any type of derivative for that matter) that would run on electronic components or use electricity for power... it simply doesn't work in the Realms. We know this from the 1e and 2e FRCS box sets. To put it simply, the physics of Toril/Realmspace won't allow such aspects to function. Why? Is there no lightning? Do lightning elementals dissapear when they enter Realmspace. Why did Ao put in such a strange law anyway. Technology poses no threat to magic as it is relient on the laws of reality, and magic users can break said laws on a daily basis. If it hampers his ability to change the future of the setting as he wants it, it should be ignored. Really, contrary to popular belief, the designers of the FR, while god-like, are indeed human. Thus, they can and rarely do conceive bad ideas and execute them. That my friend, is why it is stupid.
Ebrion 06-26-07, 03:55 AM	It is not like that at all. Mystra and her clergy, as well as a few other gods, have enlightend people to the fact that magic is a better fuel source. For example a wind elemental that is trapped in a turbine generator makes a better fuel source that burning wood or coal. Even a spell with Permenacy added to it would be a better alternitive. I hope this makes things clearer.
Drew1369r 06-26-07, 04:06 AM	Yes say using a captured air elemental to power a turbine engine to harness electricty so they can stop burning candles... put a few droplights and one million candle light power lamps in the underdark and you can get the drow use to the sun!
Mordakay of Thay 06-26-07, 09:26 AM	Zandilar is indeed correct. And it is not "stupid" either. It's simply the way the world has been built. So, if we're taking about modern tech (or any type of derivative for that matter) that would run on electronic components or use electricity for power... it simply doesn't work in the Realms. We know this from the 1e and 2e FRCS box sets. To put it simply, the physics of Toril/Realmspace won't allow such aspects to function. But we have lighting storms.There must be more to it,please explain more,Sage,if you got the time :).
Old Sage 06-26-07, 09:46 AM	From the Ol' Grey Box, pg. 9 - "The physics of the Realms are slightly out of sync with the rest of the planes, so that gunpowder and many technological devices which operate on electronics do not function. Equivalent devices may be developed by player-characters. DM’s judgment is advised as to what may be allowed into the world."
Eladrinstar 06-26-07, 11:51 AM	DM’s judgment is advised as to what may be allowed into the world." Then people should not have told him that in the first place. It forces him to come up with elaborate, interesting, but elaborate, explanations.
Ebrion 06-26-07, 12:12 PM	Sometimes thats half the fun of being a DM.
Shiftkitty 06-26-07, 03:27 PM	I allow technology into my game, but a community would have to have a reason for building a power generator at the edge of town that would be prone to orc attacks, etc., instead of having the local wizard set something up, relying on non-magical back-ups only in the event something happens to the magic field. Most of our technology, regardless of what time period it's emulating, has a distinct D&D flare. Magic is as omnipresent as electronics are in the RW, and the wizards who make the items are making a killing. They provide small, affordable gadgets that people never knew they couldn't live without. Most of these items are designed to cast low-level spells from a pre-purchased set of spells. A small box mounted on the wall of a cottage might activate an animation spell on a tired housewife's broom and start sweeping up, leaving her free to do other things. It might also contain a mending spell for the sewing, and other such domestic effects. Town lamplighters have almost vanished from larger cities because of light spells purchased (on a yearly basis, of course) from a very powerful wizard who is laughing all the way to the bank. And long before Ms. Rowling came up with it as a way to repair a broken wand in the Harry Potter series, we had Spellophane as a magical wrap that would preserve food indefinitely. To preserve the traditional flavor of D&D, these items are available only in larger cities and are not allowed outside of the city gates. It's easier for the wizards (who are almost exclusively urban) to keep tabs on the items and make sure nobody is producing or exporting knock-offs. They're not as prolific as the wizards would like them to be, but most sensible rulers don't want so much dependence on things to fall into the hands of the few. It would be bad for the economy. Some items do escape into the countryside thanks to crafty smugglers, but such incidents are rare. In my party, which has been around awhile, their only piece of high-tech delving equipment is a flashlight-type device. They have been unsuccessful at getting anything else past the city guards, and as DM, I get to decide just how much they would even have half a chance at getting out.
MarkusTay63 06-26-07, 03:57 PM	I've done this, but my players didn't like it so I went back to 'normal' FR. I only advanced the timeline 200 years, because I wanted an 'old west' style campaign, with fantasy elements (gunslinging hobbits!) I took the Maps from the Mystara campaign setting Red Steel, which already had a VERY 'old west' feel, and turned them sideways and used them as the coast of Anchorome. I pretty much used everything as written in the Red Steel sourcebooks, except for the substance Cinnabryl, which that campaign setting was meant to revolve around (it made the 'Red Steel'). I thought the idea was going to go over big, but it didn't - it only ran for a couple of sessions. The computer game Arcanum is an EXCELLENT source, and you can still find it in bargain bins for around 10 bucks. I particualarly liked that magic and tech interferred with one another, and caused critical failures at times when in proximity. The setting Iron Kingdoms isn't quite 'Steam-punk', but they do have things like gunmages. In fact, if you really examine that setting you will feel a certain 'familiarity' to another official setting... :rolleyes: except... Iron Kingdoms setting preceded it by several years. There are lots of goodies to be had there, especially the magi-tech (magical turbines, and animatrons built for war...) The Deadlands campain setting is also an excellent source, and is what I converted most of my gun-slinging rules from. Now that it is D20, its even easier! And The way of the New Science is a must-have for any magical/Victorian setting. Swashbuckling Adventures is also good for another fantasy source of Victorian-age cultures, and they have some decent rules about guns and other slightly more advanced items. Another good source is Fantasy Flight Games Sorcery and Steam. Last but not least, we have D&D's very own Masque of the Red Death, and the accompanying sourcebook, Gothic Earth, which places players in a fantastical version of our own Victorian era. Think of the movie/comic The League of Extraodinary gentleman, and throw in Van Helsing and The Brothers Grimm to boot. Maybe even Jonny Depp's Sleepy Hollow. ;)
Drew1369r 06-26-07, 05:37 PM	Especially now that... well what is called smokepowder is now in the realms I'm going to have to say the Ol'e grey box no longer applies to the rules of FR
XHereticX 06-26-07, 08:31 PM	Why? Is there no lightning? Do lightning elementals dissapear when they enter Realmspace. Why did Ao put in such a strange law anyway. Technology poses no threat to magic as it is relient on the laws of reality, and magic users can break said laws on a daily basis. If it hampers his ability to change the future of the setting as he wants it, it should be ignored. Really, contrary to popular belief, the designers of the FR, while god-like, are indeed human. Thus, they can and rarely do conceive bad ideas and execute them. That my friend, is why it is stupid. The reasons. The weave, Mystra, and millenia of magical brainwash.
Old Sage 06-26-07, 08:50 PM	Especially now that... well what is called smokepowder is now in the realms I'm going to have to say the Ol'e grey box no longer applies to the rules of FRIncorrect. Gunpowder doesn't work in the Realms, as noted in the 1e and 2e box sets. Thus, as I've already stated, since the physics of the Realms is different, this is why the world has magical smokepowder.
Eladrinstar 06-26-07, 09:36 PM	Incorrect. Gunpowder doesn't work in the Realms, as noted in the 1e and 2e box sets. Thus, as I've already stated, since the physics of the Realms is different, this is why the world has magical smokepowder. Why not just have gunpowder?
Dark Wizard 06-26-07, 09:39 PM	Because it doesn't work.
Eladrinstar 06-26-07, 09:43 PM	Because it doesn't work. Why did the designers make that rule, and go and make it's mentally ill cousin smokepowder?
XHereticX 06-26-07, 09:44 PM	Here is one word for all the properties of physics and reality in the Realms, The Weave. Some worlds function differently than others and what is physics in this world is unworkable nonsense in another. Gunpowder dosen't work because the physical and chemical catalysts that would normally cause such a reaction woud not even react on Faerun. Its just like in Fullmetal Alchemist, where Alchemy works in the parallel world but dosen't in the real world, yet physics works in the real world but dosen't function in the parallel. Elemental properties are different, heck, the elements themselves are different. That is the beauty of make-believe. Don't like how the world rolls? You can make something where logic is actually likably logical to you. That is exactly what Greenwood did.
Shiftkitty 06-26-07, 10:25 PM	MarkusTay Deadlands! Argh! I have that game! We've mixed in all kinds of systems for "spellslinging" in our game. We liken it to different Operating Systems. The bulk of your spellcasters are Windows guys, while these other guys come out of dusty taverns in the middle of nowhere and can make spells on the fly without having to read from a scroll or memorize it from a list. But they do have to draw the right hand of cards. These are the Linux guys. Then we borrowed the Spell Engine from Castle Falkenstein, and the first thing the government that developed it did was to lock it up tight. A mechanical way to chuck a spell? The good guys in the gov't are worried about the prospect of tipping the balance of power in the world, while the bad guys are delighted at the prospect of tipping the balance of power in the world. And many spellcasters don't relish the idea of being replaced by a machine. When we get a new player, there's a LOT of prep work to be done. We usually save time by setting them up at Level 1 and just having them come from a backwater town, but if they want to start at a higher level, then we have to bring them up to speed. Fortunately, after a few beers, they're usually willing to accept whatever we tell them. :D
MarkusTay63 06-26-07, 11:14 PM	Sounds like I would have had more fun gaming with you guys. :D My players just didn't 'get it'. Maybe it was the names - they started out in Headstone, and met Doc Hobbitday and Wyatt Elf. I thought my Elvish monorail would have hooked them, or perhaps the Waterdeep Zeppelin Company, but they never even got that far.
DrowBattlemind 06-26-07, 11:26 PM	Zandilar is indeed correct. And it is not "stupid" either. It's simply the way the world has been built. So, if we're taking about modern tech (or any type of derivative for that matter) that would run on electronic components or use electricity for power... it simply doesn't work in the Realms. We know this from the 1e and 2e FRCS box sets. To put it simply, the physics of Toril/Realmspace won't allow such aspects to function. I still have my 2nd Ed FR boxed set. Please state the page number and book this is printed on, Zandilar and Old Sage. Being far more familiar with Greyhawk (due to my advanced, doddering old age), I can state that Gunpowder does NOT work on Greyhawk (unless you're the Quasi-deity Murlynd or one of his Order of White Knights of Heironeous), although smoke powder does in the Realms.
boards 06-27-07, 04:36 AM	People are confusing moden technology not work in the realms for electricity. Obviously electricity exists when we have lightning, but this electricity cant be harnessed by mundane means. Perhaps it surges to much and blows any wires, or metals dont conduct electricity in the same manner as in the RW. It would be interesting to know if simple things like a galvanic cell couldn't be created and used to shock someone (ie voltas experiments), or whether it is just more advanced technologies.
Zsych 06-27-07, 04:49 AM	The awakening of a scientific research mentality, would also apply to further magic. When consumer items start being made cheap, some people will look for magic that either helps the creation of such, or for methods to make magical items cheap(refer mythallar... preferably a grounded one). .. And state sponsored research into magic, in large magical research facilities............................ (Netheril reborn)
XHereticX 06-27-07, 08:16 AM	The awakening of a scientific research mentality, would also apply to further magic. When consumer items start being made cheap, some people will look for magic that either helps the creation of such, or for methods to make magical items cheap(refer mythallar... preferably a grounded one). .. And state sponsored research into magic, in large magical research facilities............................ (Netheril reborn) And that is where Forgotten Realms turns into Eberron and we most definatly do not want to go there. Eberron can stay in Eberron, where it fits.
Shiftkitty 06-27-07, 03:15 PM	I still have to get "Eberron" just to see what ideas I can rip off from it. We have one "magical research" facility in our entire campaign. In a flight of whimsy, "Tabbitech" is a place staffed by masterless familiars whose expertise in magic has them on eth cutting edge of magical technologies. While they research and develop "big magic" for their patron, a very capitalistic wizard who rules the realm, for the common market they keep it simple. They're given artistic freedom to develop as they see fit, and in return they don't make anything for another land that could allow that land to wage war, especially against their own land.
MarkusTay63 06-27-07, 06:30 PM	After some thought, I have something to add. I used to think that the Weave somehow generated an EM pulse, which made electronic gizmos useless. Thats applying RW physics to an IG phenomena, but its imperfect. It doesn't explain WHY gunpowder doesn't work. Before we had Spelljammer, it was assumed that the minerals to make it were slightly different on Toril, so it wouldn't function. However, it specifically states in the SJ rules that gunpowder brought from outside of Realmspace no longer functions. This points to a fundamental difference in how physics works in FR. After much consideration, I have come up with this: On a magical world, many of the mundane physical and chemical inter-actions fall under the jurisdiction of various beings. The lightening on Toril is a living thing, unlike our world. The same can be said of Fire. When a technological device uses either either electricity, or fire, or whatever, you are basically 'enslaving' those forces to work for you. In a world without magic, this happens automatically. On FR, the various Elemental Lords and Gods do not allow it, so it simply doesn't function. On other worlds, like GH, perhaps certain 'deals' are required for devices to work properly. You want your steam engine to do it's thing, perhaps you have to bind a demon into it, or a fire Elemental. Every World has different levels of magic, and different rules about its use, and I believe this spills over into any 'science'. Magic is, after all, just technology we don't understand. Perhaps if you prayed to Gond, and worked something out with a Lightening Elemental, you could get your tricorder working. ;)
XHereticX 06-27-07, 06:35 PM	After some thought, I have something to add. I used to think that the Weave somehow generated an EM pulse, which made electronic gizmos useless. Thats applying RW physics to an IG phenomena, but its imperfect. It doesn't explain WHY gunpowder doesn't work. Before we had Spelljammer, it was assumed that the minerals to make it were slightly different on Toril, so it wouldn't function. However, it specifically states in the SJ rules that gunpowder brought from outside of Realmspace no longer functions. This points to a fundamental difference in how physics works in FR. After much consideration, I have come up with this: On a magical world, many of the mundane physical and chemical inter-actions fall under the jurisdiction of various beings. The lightening on Toril is a living thing, unlike our world. The same can be said of Fire. When a technological device uses either either electricity, or fire, or whatever, you are basically 'enslaving' those forces to work for you. In a world without magic, this happens automatically. On FR, the various Elemental Lords and Gods do not allow it, so it simply doesn't function. On other worlds, like GH, perhaps certain 'deals' are required for devices to work properly. You want your steam engine to do it's thing, perhaps you have to bind a demon into it, or a fire Elemental. Every World has different levels of magic, and different rules about its use, and I believe this spills over into any 'science'. Magic is, after all, just technology we don't understand. Perhaps if you prayed to Gond, and worked something out with a Lightening Elemental, you could get your tricorder working. ;) To put it simply, the natural and elemental forces of Faerun are under total control by a pantheon of power-hungry deities and their "regulations." Hey, that was easy.:P
Zsych 06-27-07, 06:54 PM	@XHereticX: Depends on how you play it. And a more advanced FR is still FR because the underlying places and people are still the same. Just the level of the game will change a little, if improved weapons and such can be bought more easily, or people can move around quicker. (how the realms are effected, is really your own choice, and you don't need to focus on tech where it doesn't suit you) When I say Netheril reborn... I mean, very early Netheril reborn(in 200 years)... although just the presence of the Shades may change the nature of the game some.
Ebrion 06-27-07, 07:03 PM	Note to everyone, I am not trying to make FR into Ebb. I am mearly trying something new with something familier. My group will not be able to metagame as much with a slightly different setting. But it will also not be completely alien to them. By the way I am stealing the Familiar magic reasearch center.
MarkusTay63 06-28-07, 01:49 AM	Being far more familiar with Greyhawk (due to my advanced, doddering old age), I can state that Gunpowder does NOT work on Greyhawk (unless you're the Quasi-deity Murlynd or one of his Order of White Knights of Heironeous), although smoke powder does in the Realms.Gunpowder DOES indeed work in GH, don't you have the Greyspace Supplement? In fact, in the SJ rules, it uses GH as an example - if you bring Gunpowder over from Greyspace into Realmspace it will not function, and the weapons will have to be converted over to Smokepowder at considerable cost. I know this in the Kara-Tur boxed set - pg.192 of vol. II (last page): "The physics of the Realms are slightly out of sync with the rest of the planes, so that gunpowder and many technological devices which operate on electronics do not function. Equivalent devices may be developed by player-characters. DM's judgemant is advised as to what may be allowed into the world" And besides, we KNOW tech works in GH, because one of the old adventure modules takes you aboard a spaceship! And some of the 'tech' still functioned... :rolleyes:
DrowBattlemind 06-28-07, 10:16 AM	Yes, I do, but even that supp. states that 'smokepowder' doesn't work on planet, and both previous and later supps re-iterate the 'no gunpowder on Greyhawk' rule. The one ship that tried to import in bulk spontaneously self-combusted moments before it touched down in port, remember? And I never said that technology doesn't work there, i said gunpowder/smokepowder. Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, and later, the boxed set, Tale of the Comet (I think, it had a group of Terminator/Borg rip-off wannabe's) explored the use of higher technology in the setting. Specifically, electronics and laser tech. World of Greyhawk boxed set, Glossography, p. 35, Murlynd: referring to his use of six-shooters and hog-legs (shotguns) "His special aura enables these devices to function even on Oerth, for instance." Spelljammer Boxed Set, Lorebook of the Void, p. 89, Primary: Oerth: "Smoke powder does not function on Oerth, although it does in wildspace and on other planets in the system." Dragon Magazine #306, Paladins of Greyhawk, included the feat Secret of the Firebrands, available only to the White Paladins of Heironeous (an order sponsored by Murlynd), which allows a White Paladin to make and utilize gunpowder and gunpowder-based weaponry.
MarkusTay63 06-28-07, 12:22 PM	So gunpowder worked in Greyspace, but not on planet? That makes even less sense then FR's altered physics. :uh-huh: At least in Realmspace the same rules apply throughout. Also, don't you find it a little strange that a laser rifle will operate fine, but an old fashioned six-shooter is disallowed? And AFAIK, smokepowder ONLY works in Realmspace. It is unique to the Realms, and the magic that makes it function should NOT work in GH, thats just... weird. Thats why Mystara was the best, everything worked the same there as in the RW; no confusion.
XHereticX 06-28-07, 07:03 PM	So gunpowder worked in Greyspace, but not on planet? That makes even less sense then FR's altered physics. :uh-huh: At least in Realmspace the same rules apply throughout. Also, don't you find it a little strange that a laser rifle will operate fine, but an old fashioned six-shooter is disallowed? And AFAIK, smokepowder ONLY works in Realmspace. It is unique to the Realms, and the magic that makes it function should NOT work in GH, thats just... weird. Thats why Mystara was the best, everything worked the same there as in the RW; no confusion. The physics of the Realms is all controlled by...the gods...and the weave. Its like a Bible-loving creationist's dream, the laws of nature made so freaking simple!!!!:cool:
Drew1369r 06-29-07, 06:16 PM	Incorrect. Gunpowder doesn't work in the Realms, as noted in the 1e and 2e box sets. Thus, as I've already stated, since the physics of the Realms is different, this is why the world has magical smokepowder. Then why would they not print this in the 3.x editions for those of us that don't have 1st and 2nd. I don't see why they wouldn't include that if they wanted that rule to continue throught the years... Gond would be upset if where he was at was as far as he could go and talk to Ao to have Mystra stop not letting him produce more advanced technology since its apparently the weave and sync that is stopping what he is considering impedement of progress!
MarkusTay63 06-29-07, 06:39 PM	Because, #1, the rule is that if something hasn't been specifically changed in 3e, it still exists in 3e. Thats in the book, and has been quoted MANY times on these boards by the designers themselves. And #2, FR is now more 'distant' from the other worlds then before. With Planescape and SJ floating around, world-hopping was just too common-place, hence they needed rules to cover all the 'wierdness'. In FR, you cannot make gunpowder. The elements are just different enough to not allow it to work. That is why Realmsians developed Smokepowder. There is no need for a rule anymore for something you simply cannot get your hands on. That being said, the rules I quoted earlier specifically point out that 'substitutes' can be made for just about anything, if you apply a little magic. Take the RW weapon Metal Storm, which is capable of firing 1 million rounds a minute. There is NO gunpowder - the bullets are stacked together in the tubes and liquid propellent is ignited behind each one. Although the ignition system is electronic, the propellent part of it would still work in FR. Just use a trained lesser fire Elemental bound to the gun to fire it, and now you have something a hell of a lot more powerful then anything made with gunpowder.
Ebrion 06-29-07, 07:25 PM	Stealing yet another idea. TY Markus.
Drew1369r 06-29-07, 08:15 PM	Because, #1, the rule is that if something hasn't been specifically changed in 3e, it still exists in 3e. Thats in the book, and has been quoted MANY times on these boards by the designers themselves. So I reiterate... for those of us that DON'T HAVE 1st or 2nd ed and don't see these posts from dev's?
Drew1369r 06-29-07, 08:21 PM	Stealing yet another idea. TY Markus. It seems to happen quite abit here on these boards you ask for an idea and they say it can't happen... well being that its your world I'd stop listening to the naysayers and listening to those that actually give support and idea's. For the idea's and to stop this whole "physics" BS I'd say that Gond finally complained loud enough to Ao and he changed the "physics" of the realms to allow progress and Gonds portfolio to flourish abit more so you can make the changes for your players to understand. After that allow the changes... hydro-electric and wind powered would probably be the way to go as they are the simplist for the realms itself.
GothicDan 06-29-07, 11:14 PM	Speaking as a Physics student, I'd just point out that I absolutely love the idea that FR has a different "Physics" than the real world. Just because they have lightning doesn't mean that electricity functions the same way as it does in real life. In fact, we KNOW it doesn't, from a scientific point of view, because we don't run around casting Lightning Bolts.
Drew1369r 06-29-07, 11:17 PM	I absolutely love the idea that FR has a different "Physics" than the real world. Thats great... instead of shooting down someones idea you help them out abit! OMG what a nightmare!
GothicDan 06-29-07, 11:25 PM	I'm sorry, I couldn't get your point. Care to try rephreasing it with correct spelling and grammar? I couldn't tell if you were using sarcasm or something else. And Zandilar already DID try to help and was shot down for it. I figured I wouldn't be the second one to ask for a hole in my forehead.
Drew1369r 06-29-07, 11:31 PM	I'm sorry, I couldn't get your point. Care to try rephreasing it with correct spelling and grammar? If thats all you can say about it, you are a sad sad little man.
Ebrion 06-30-07, 03:09 AM	As I have already stated, tech and the weave will be completely intergraded. Not for the rules sake, but for better story fluff. A bucnch of p****d off shocker lizards in a jar sounds cooler than an everyday generator. I am pushing the time line about 500 years into the future. Now this means some things are different. Namely some epic folks are DED dead. Drizzt, dead. Blackstaff, gonner. Elminster, lesser diety? I have a request for some filler lore that can be used for fluff and story development. Nothing involving mechanics, just story. Be creative and try not to flame others ideas. Maybe we could start a Modern FR timeline thread here for others with this same concept in mind.:plotting:
GothicDan 06-30-07, 06:48 PM	It's been started before, I believe. I'm not sure the quality of the responses you'll get, since the majority of people who seem to promote such a massive world change are also those who tend to be a bit lacking in terms of actual lore knowledge regarding the world. For what it's worth, a look through some Arcane Age supplements might give you some ideas for how to implement a Magi-Tech feel. I'm currently working on an incredibly empirical, science-like magic style for my own world (manipulating quantum Argot patterns utilizing Temporal Perturbation Matrices [crystals]), but that wouldn't fit very well with FR's Weave.
XHereticX 06-30-07, 06:49 PM	It's been started before, I believe. I'm not sure the quality of the responses you'll get, since the majority of people who seem to promote such a massive world change are also those who tend to be a bit lacking in terms of actual lore knowledge regarding the world. For what it's worth, a look through some Arcane Age supplements might give you some ideas for how to implement a Magi-Tech feel. I'm currently working on an incredibly empirical, science-like magic style for my own world (manipulating quantum Argot patterns utilizing Temporal Perturbation Matrices [crystals]), but that wouldn't fit very well with FR's Weave. Or just play Final Fantasy:D There is more magi-tech in there than you can shake a stick at. I am sure you could find some way to fit it into the Realms.
MarkusTay63 06-30-07, 08:44 PM	Theres no reason to ret-con the physics of the Realms, Drew1369r, because as I've already stated you can develop alternates. Don't you think that figuring out different ways for things to work is much more creative then making it "just like the Real World"? Personally, I'd take Ebrion's 'shocker lizards' over an ugly old boring generator anyday. Unless the generator had a VERY angry elemental bound to it. In my FR meets the Old West campaign, I had a group of Elves from the Holly forest (the ones with the Monorail, and the ONLY Elves to embrace tech) build a type of gun that never needed to reload. Basically, the weapon had a permanent spell that summoned a small piece of metalic ore from the Elemental plane of Earth every time the trigger was depressed. It also contained a bound Air elemental that created a huge chunk of 'air' behind the round when it appeared. So basically, I wound up with a VERY powerful pellet gun that didn't need ammo. And of course, the pun was "Holly Wood guns never run out of bullets". :D The elves never sold them, because they were very costly to make and were designed with esthetics in mind. They had the more straight look to them, like early firearms, rather then the 90º pistol-grip we see today, and they were heavily engraved and were true works of art and family heirlooms in most cases. Dwarves, on the other hand, prefer the "more is better" approach, and built gunnes along the lines of the RW weapons featuring as many as 5, 8, and 12 barrels! The gnomes preferred the 'Duck-Bill' model, although a crazy Dwarf named Kaitlin was trying to perfect his field 'machine gun', nicknamed the 'Kaitlin Gun'. Halflings didn't care what they used, they were the most feared gun-slingers in the New West. If only my players had given it a chance. :(
Zsych 07-01-07, 04:05 PM	I would say that if any tech were developed in Toril, it would be developed using Toril's rules, and it would work fine(although you might not be able to take it to another world and still expect it to work) Smokepowder is a replacement for gunpowder. Other chemicals might still be made according to Toril-ean physics... and most machines should still be much the same, so plane hoppers could at least bring in the ideas on which basic science is based(if you didn't just import them from the Netherese) -- As for greyhawk... if gunpowder was even more unstable there, then you would need to reduce the quantity you use, or reinforce your weapons(maybe put in shock-absorbers inside your guns, lest the gun powder be destablized)... point being that you should still be able to get it to work under those circumstances if you need to(although such may be beyond a greedy trader who imports it and guns from elsewhere, without knowing anything about tech)
MarkusTay63 07-01-07, 04:10 PM	Create Air inside a small enclosed cantainer = explosion. Its actually easier with magic instead of tech, and it would work just as well. I just don't see 'Wizard Sweat-shops' pumping these kinds of items out, though, so they would be more costly then their Earth counterparts.
Zsych 07-01-07, 04:38 PM	Somebody like the Red Wizards, needs to breed slave sorcerors for jobs like these.
Karsus the Mad 07-01-07, 07:28 PM	A bucnch of p****d off shocker lizards in a jar sounds cooler than an everyday generator. That's pretty cool. For my Lantan campaign, one of the NPC's utilized a steam powered device that rapidly passed metalmaster pieces through a large copper coil to produce a shocking grasp effect on anyone getting too near.
KarsusAspectOfZsych 07-02-07, 10:49 PM	What needs to be developed, for any advanced society, is some basis for mass-production. If wizards can create items that can aid in the process of creating more items, or perhaps make new copies of a standard item themselves, then you are well along on the way to progress and riches
Ebrion 07-02-07, 11:46 PM	Good Idea, but lets add some fluff to it. I am looking for great ideas like that but with the filler to go with it. Even if it is off the wall. ( I like to laugh too.)
XHereticX 07-03-07, 07:45 PM	Hmm, how about a flamethrower that shoots spellfire???;)
sages 07-04-07, 08:49 AM	Try playing Arcanum, I believe it will help you a lot.
Karsus the Mad 07-04-07, 08:54 AM	Try playing Arcanum, I believe it will help you a lot. Hmmm....Vendigroth:drool: Excellent game for ideas. Some concepts tho', such as the "two sides of the same coin" prolly wouldn't fit.
hawkinsthedm 07-04-07, 09:07 PM	When I say Netheril reborn... I mean, very early Netheril reborn(in 200 years)... although just the presence of the Shades may change the nature of the game some. There are a couple of organizations to make sure that Netheril is NOT reborn (i.e. the Magehounds of Halruaa and the Cultists of the Shattered Peak). If there was a Netheril Reborn, one or both of these organizations would have to play a part in the campaign.
hawkinsthedm 07-04-07, 09:11 PM	Especially now that... well what is called smokepowder is now in the realms I'm going to have to say the Ol'e grey box no longer applies to the rules of FR Smokepowder is an alchemical substance, not chemical. Believe it or not, but in the Realms there is a difference. Also, according to Realmspace, the halflings of the planet Anadia produce it from a plant.
hawkinsthedm 07-04-07, 09:16 PM	And my for my final :twocents: ! I believe that both the VG Arcanum and the Eberron CS would be good tools to develop this idea. Have fun with it. I do not know if it is a version of the FR that I would want to play in, but it is a good concept. A note on Eberron: Why all the hate from FR fans? The Realms are here to stay man, even if they kill Kara-Tur, Zhakara, and Maztica. It is a cool campaign setting. Burn me at the stake, but it is. And if you look, there are more current edition sourcebooks out for FR than Eberron.
Crazygx34 07-04-07, 11:16 PM	Hello! I think it a good idea to make Faerun in the future. I have thinking me too to bring some Eberron thing in FR. For playing Final Fantasy when I was young and watch movies Star-Wars a lot influence your view of fantasy. Play in a world only rule by magic can be hard for the imagination. I got some idea for you. First you have the take in mind the colonization of other worlds on Toril like Mazitca and Kara-Tur and maybe other planes. The evolution of the Gods it very important because in Faerun the God control all. Elminster lesser god it a really good idea.You have to make the history with big events maybe a tragedy in the weaves that make the people of Faerun to relay on alchemy. Gond can have make is way to be workshipped in all Faerun. A read somewhere that in the Moonsea on some island peolple workship Gond a lot and use smokepowder and alchemy. The only reason of the smokepowder is not every where else in the realms it because of magic users that fear it. Just thinking of every commoner whit guns make they fight against the trade of smokepowder. Some history of the realms read in a book said that in the really beginning of the time the Weave was real strong with Mystara first godess of magic. Reals powerfuls races of magic users was living in the world and 10 flying city covered in the surface world among them was Sigil. But a big event occur and break the Weave in two creating the Shadowplane and destroying almost all the floating city. Finally events can appears like this one in your world and make the weaves and magic users loosing power again and relay more on alchemy or other technology.You can modify Faerun like you want if you love FR for the basic just go on and don't give up because people said that it not good. I think it a good idea and I work me too on something like this.
MarkusTay63 07-04-07, 11:46 PM	Arcanum rocked!!! And it proved, once and for all, that gnomes are behind all of the evil in the universe. :eek: Those poor, poor women..... :nonono:
Karsus the Mad 07-04-07, 11:49 PM	Arcanum rocked!!! And it proved, once and for all, that gnomes are behind all of the evil in the universe. :eek: Those poor, poor women..... :nonono: That really :censored: :banghead: :headexplo me off to no end. I eventually gave up and cracked the game open just to see if there was additional scripting to continue that particular quest after you came back from ogre island. Nope. Nada. A bloody quest designed specifically for you to fail.
Ebrion 07-05-07, 03:52 AM	Thank you Crazygx34. You are the first person to send a truely helpful post. :cookie: for you. But a :weep: for the spelling and grammar.
Crazygx34 07-05-07, 09:26 PM	Your welcome ;) and sorry for my english I am french canadian and I'm not good for writing and talking english :confused: but I understood it well.:rolleyes:
hawkinsthedm 07-06-07, 01:39 AM	Your welcome ;) and sorry for my english I am french canadian and I'm not good for writing and talking english :confused: but I understood it well.:rolleyes: Hey, you are forgiven by me :)!
Zsych 07-11-07, 03:19 AM	It'll take more than a bunch of maggots to stop Netheril from being reborn. But that's not my point. I mean that the magic/tech level of Faerun as a whole, in a more advanced Faerun might be similar to an early Netheril like situation. Faerun could even advance as a reaction to the greater magic of the returned Netherese.
hawkinsthedm 07-11-07, 12:04 PM	It'll take more than a bunch of maggots to stop Netheril from being reborn. But that's not my point. Lol. That is not my point either. I was just stating that they would need to be considered and dealt with because they would attempt everything to stop Netheril from being reborn.
Zsych 07-12-07, 07:04 AM	Are they important enough a force to be considered a threat to Shade enclave, with its more than a thousand wizards, and who knows how many defences, that are additionally supported by the mythallar? (defences that did not seem to be around in RotA, but should be active by now, if there is any decency at all). Destroying something well fortified, with good defences isn't easy, and their soldiers aren't lacking in experience either. Also, personally, if I were Halruuan, I'd want to join the Shades, both for the past and for the knowledge of magic.... until I learned their actually evil intentions(though just wanting to conquer the world and spread a superior culture isn't evil :))
Crazygx34 08-10-07, 04:53 AM	Hi! The island I was talking about, it Lantan in the sea near the Jungle of Chult. I found the name in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, but little explanation of the island. KARUS THE MAD, use it in one of is post, but I really don't know if they talk about Lantan anywhere else. Ok it all I know of the Gnome island, but I'm sure in a "futur FR" the Gnome will have some word to say. Thank you!:)
Karsus the Mad 08-10-07, 09:22 AM	Hi! The island I was talking about, it Lantan in the sea near the Jungle of Chult. I found the name in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, but little explanation of the island. KARUS THE MAD, use it in one of is post, but I really don't know if they talk about Lantan anywhere else. Ok it all I know of the Gnome island, but I'm sure in a "futur FR" the Gnome will have some word to say. Thank you!:) There's not much info on Lantan in publications, but there is a wonderful fan based compilation at http://www.geocities.com/timessquare/castle/2566/lantan.htm Note that while Lantan has a large gnome population, it is still predominantly a human realm governed by humans, with a human religion being the state religion (Gond) :)
Crazygx34 08-11-07, 02:19 AM	Thank you Karsus, graet link.:) I was refering to Lantan in wikipedia description. It call Lantan the Land of the Gnome and Gond gave them the secret of smoke powder in the time of trouble.
Old Sage 08-11-07, 03:57 AM	Lantan has virtually nothing written about it in the Realms canon. However, if you take a look through some of the older material, you can find a few tidbits in several sourcebooks. For example, the entries for Gond in most of the FR deity books mention some details about the Wonderbringer's faith in the island realm. The 1e and 2e FR boxed sets, as well as the 3e FRCS, also contain lore about Lantan -- these are the most detailed sources. That being said... Faiths & Avatars for Gond, the 1e and 2e FRCS, 3e FRCS and the Perilous Gateway articles featuring Lantan. Prayers from the Faithful also -- which also contains some Lantan tidbits -- particularly in the section on "The Argyr". And Races of Faerûn. And despite all the gnomish-ness... Lantan still has a notable human presence. The tinker-like aspect of the gnomes were the result of TSR bringing the concept of the tinker gnomes into the Realms, and also largely because Gond appeared (in the form of a gnome) on the island during the Time of Troubles.
Faraer 08-11-07, 11:48 AM	I was refering to Lantan in wikipedia description. It call Lantan the Land of the GnomeAs often, Wikipedia is wrong.
Crazygx34 08-11-07, 03:49 PM	Thank you! for the tip. But I think the guy that discovered Lantan was wrong saying that was The land of Gnome. Like Christobal Colombus said have discovered the India and he was wrong that was America.:cool:
Yaeri 09-24-07, 04:20 PM	lol, I'm probably way too late, but I'll give this a try. I was thinking that one breakthrough, one particular field developping would be most sensible to lead to the faerun you're trying to create. And inspired by all the portals in the realms, I though of conduits. One of faerun's nations, (the Imaskari after their comeback?) made a major breakthrough in creating cheap, fast, easy 'portals', by making them very small, too small for humanoids to pass through. Magically created conduits to all sorts of elemental, paraelemental and quasi elemental planes can be the source of energy that quickly spread throughout the world. Heat energy from the plane of fire, cold from the para elemental plane of ice can power someones refrigerator (though I wouldn't call it thus ;)). There's even a whole quasi elemental plane of lightning for your regular technical gadgets. Was there a particular reason why you chose 500 years in the future? Many empires will have fallen and risen. Most NPC's from now are long gone and many others have taken their place. Geography, pantheons, monsters can have been altered, several times. That's all a lot of work. If you don't want everything to drastically change, you may want to introduce the reasons thereof to your history. For example: some event that brought great political stability to the realms. If you do stick to 500 years, for believability, I would avoid having all new events reshape the realms into yours. Let one empire take over another, then lose their conquered ground again and be taken over by another empire, that then gets absorbed by yet another. Then this big empire fragments into smaller pieces, etc etc... (I hope that made sense. I'm bad at explaining this. But let me know if you need clarification :D)
The Ubbergeek 09-24-07, 11:41 PM	And despite all the gnomish-ness... Lantan still has a notable human presence. The tinker-like aspect of the gnomes were the result of TSR bringing the concept of the tinker gnomes into the Realms, and also largely because Gond appeared (in the form of a gnome) on the island during the Time of Troubles. Two things... Unless the Gnomoi, the gondians are serious... And their stuff actually WORK well. Usually.
Ebrion 09-25-07, 02:03 AM	Wow, my surprise that someone actually looked this up off the scale. But thank you, The 500 yr thing was just an Idea thrown out there, mt purpose for this was to see what others would do with a slightly modern realms, or at least what they think should change with with the passing of a somewhat great amount of time. My personal Ideas, involve some dieing on the part of just a few major players( without bias I don't dislike any characters realms wise, just Jarlaxel's hat. :D ) But One Idea was to have Elminster ascend to being a lesser diety, Taking Azuths place since his worshippers were waning. That of course is just an example of what I was trying to get out of this thread. I was hoping to see what other people would come up withunder this concept.
The Ubbergeek 09-25-07, 02:30 AM	Elminster could make a very fine second Azuth. I think many would agree (and peoples disliking him as a character would see at least that then, he would have a reason to be meddling so much around AND yet stay much more distant and remote).
Ebrion 09-25-07, 02:32 AM	Yay, :dancin: .... Thank you for the extra fluff to go with that idea.
The Ubbergeek 09-25-07, 11:19 AM	Elminster do not, never did wish for power in the political sense. Or uther praises and adoration. But few are as dedicated to the cause of his goddess as a Chosen like him, and magic in general. I could see it happens as if he was visited like in the religious books of our world (or in dreams, by example), shown the future, shown what is needed. And seeing that the world need him, that a terrible duty need help for the betterment of the world, he'd accept and sacrifice his humanity. And perhaps he litteraly disapears from the world, ascending... Eh, his home would become a most holy site for his future cult. It could be very nice if well-done.
Yaeri 09-25-07, 05:34 PM	I was thinking about this conduit thing a bit more, completely by accident. :D (Continuing with the imaskari example.) Among the many magnificent 'machines' they make powered through their conduits, they also make weapons, and they quickly grow to a power to be reckonned with. They start a bit of conquest, first retaking their old homes mulhorrand and unther, until they reach chondalwood. When they invade the elf realm there, their army is defeated. Through some special ritual, the elves, in preparation for the attack, had strengthened one of their mithals with several new spells (or made a new one). From the moment the first imaskari soldier used a weapon on an elf, inside the mithal's area, it triggered, activating the new spell throughout the whole elf realm: dimensional anchor (which prevents planar travel?) effectively closing all the mini-portals powering the imaskari weapons, or at least preventing the energies from passing through the conduits. The imaskari soldiers having become completely dependent on their gadgets, were routed by the elves. After this terrible loss, the surrounding nations and/or the conquered nations, taking advantage of their weakened state, tore the imaskari empire appart. So they all got their hands on the conduit magic and the imaskari 'technology' quickly spread through the rest of the realms.