Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Skaboozh 07-09-04, 01:38 AM	So, as you know by now, I'm running my next campaign in the Realms. And I'd like some help. First, let me outline the goals of my campaign. - This campaign is going to last a while. I want to try and design something that can be an ongoing event, without the necessity of having to go from here to here to here to here. I want the main story arc to be large enough to last a while and take the players for a ride, but I don't want the main story to be made such a necessity that the players couldn't spare some time every now and then to go explore a rumored dungeon or a lost citadel. - I want to break some stereotypes. My players are very used to the standard ideas of certain concepts in D&D. I'm not trying to make devils good or anything, but maybe they encounter a Red Wizard who has shunned the evil ways of his homeland. This rolls right into my next goal. - I want to force my players to make choices. And not choices like "Do I go into Dungeon A or Dungeon B?" I mean real choices. Choices with consequences both good and bad no matter which option they take. For example, the aforementioned redeemed Red Wizard, I want to make the players have to choose whether or not they believe him, and whether or not to help him escape Thay even though they know such actions, no matter how well explained, would be considered acceptable in their homeland of Rasheman. Choices like that. I want to challenge their character moralities, and occasionally, I want them to have to re-examine why they believe what they do. - I want to create a story that's interesting. I'm not afraid of cliches, as long as I don't use them as such. I want plot twists, but I don't want them so often that the players discredit any plot developments as soon as they find them out. I also want the players to be wary of strangers, but to not spurn them so much that they become distrustful of strangers. If everyone who offers to help them ends up hurting them, then it cheapens the effect. But when one of their closer allies severely hurts them, I want them to feel absolutely betrayed. Let me give you the story so far. When the players awake to find themself in Thay, it will not be the Thay that we all know it to be right now. The Red Wizards are no longer in power. In their place is the Church of Kossuth. To some this might seem like blasphemy. The Red Wizards not in power in Thay?!?!? That should throw one of my players for a loop, when he finds out. The Unapproachable East explains this pretty well. The Red Wizards have never organized themselves. They're not a cohesive group, and they're not a group that has the people of Thay fighting passionately for. The people of Thay fight for the Red Wizards because they have to, not because they want to. The Church of Kossuth is going to step in and give the people of Thay a reason to believe, and they are going to overthrow the zulkirs and the rest of the Red Wizards. If this seems like an impossible task, that's because it probably is. Well, that is, it would be without the help of Szass Tam, the feared zulkir of necromancy, and Druxus Rhym, the zulkir of transmutation. Tam and Rhym have had an alliance for a while now, so them working together is not unreasonable. There will also be a third Red Wizard involved, decidedly not a zulkir, that will help convince these two that a secret alliance with the Church of Kossuth will gain them more power than they could imagine. More power than is possible with the Red Wizards in power. Most zulkirs and tharchions will be killed during this coup in Thay. One zulkir that will live is Yephyll, the zulkir of divination. She will have conventiently disappeared just before the coup took place. Maybe the more uninformed will assume she had something to do with it, considering the timing. I want to use her in some way later on, but I'm not sure how. When the campaign starts, most everyone in Faerun will know the Church of Kossuth now controls Thay. No one will know of Tam's or Rhym's involvement except Yephyll. What the players (and some other people in Faerun) are going to come to discover is that the Church of Kossuth plans to conquer the surrounding areas. The Red Wizards tried for years, but could never do it. The Church of Kossuth, though, has the spirited people of Thay behind them, as well as manipulation of certain people in the East thanks to their involvement with the enclaves. The Red Wizards had started to realize that militaristically they weren't going to overcome the forces in the east. They had tried and failed. So they started taking up economic means to seize power. Thanks to Druxus Rhym, Szass Tam has realized the opportunities the enclaves could present and started stockpiling magic items. What few know, though, is that most of his magic items are cursed to compel the wielder of the magic item to fight for him. But Tam and Rhym needed to figure out a way to get those magic items in the hands of the people of the east through the enclaves. So they sent out spies. Their spies were sent out under the ruse of being bandits, quickly joining some of the more powerful bandit groups that roam the east. Once they were in place, they started spreading rumors of magic items of great power that could be purchased at the Red Wizard enclaves. Sort of a black market within these enclaves. The only thing that kept them out of the wrong hands was the fact that the Red Wizards made sure that only the right hands knew they existed. So, like any bandit that wanted to try and get the upper hand on the people they were raiding would do, they started buying these cursed items. And soon thereafter, they started becoming subservient to Tam. So when the Church of Kossuth enlisted the help of Tam, Rhym, and the third wizard to overthrow Thay, the new alliance also had hundreds of trained bandits spread throughout the east disguised as unaffiliated bandits ready to strike when told. Not many people know just how good of a position this new Thay is in to take over the east. While some will know of the Church's plans, and some of them will realize just how dire of a situation they face knowing that all of Thay is ready for war, but few will know of the forces spread throughout the east in the enclaves, the bandits that Tam controls, or the various spies the two former zulkirs and the Church has about. The players role in this is going to start extremely small. They are going to be in Thay as the Thayan Civil War between the Church of Kossuth and the Red Wizards is happening assigned to free some undetermined slaves that are important to an undetermined person. Depending on how things go, they will start learning of various aspects of what is really going on in Thay. The backstabbing, the betrayal, the first *real* threat of eastern domination by what will result from this civil war. Being a civil war and all, it won't be over quickly. No matter how well Tam, Rhym, and the Church of Kossuth planned this, they're still going up against the Red Wizards. Sure, the Church will have the support of the people of Thay, but it's still the Red Wizards. They will win, but it will take a while. And in no way will the rulers of the new Thay be ready in any way to conquer the east after just fighting a civil war, so the story will have plenty of time to occur. The players won't be forced to spend their every waking moment with the threat of Thay, instead learning just how much of a threat it is as they complete some somewhat related tasks and some unrelated tasks. I want the areas around Thay to initially be overjoyed at the removal of the Red Wizards in power, not allowing themselves to realize that the Church with Tam, Rhym, and the people of Thay is a greater power than the Red Wizards ever were. In fact, I'm thinking of having Aglarond decimated at the hands of the Church sometime during the campaign. Aglarond would naturally be the first place to launch an attack, and the destruction of most of Aglarond would really send a message to the rest of Faerun. As the rest of Faerun does what it will to keep the Thay at bay, the players will be given time to level up, again in related and unrelated tasks. In the end, I want to the players to basically be a deciding factor in the destruction of Thay. And I mean destruction. At the end of my campaign, I want the Thay to no longer exist as the evil power it once was. Depending on the course the players take, that could mean helping certain Thayans regain power in Thay, Thayans they know they could regulate. They might want to help the Red Wizards regain power, knowing that what remains of the Red Wizards would likely never be enough to really threaten Faerun again. Or they might want to just remove all the potential power groups in Thay, helping lead certain allied forces in Faerun against Thay. I refuse to really get into specifics about that, because that's a ways off, and something that will mostly be out of my control. I want to know what you guys think about this, and what else I can add to the story to keep it fresh along the way. It doesn't necessarily have to do with the main story arc, maybe you have some good ideas for some good offshoots in places affected by what's happened with the main story arc. I'm open to anything that can help flesh out this story and really make it a memorable experience for the players.
Skaboozh 07-09-04, 01:43 AM	I'm also looking for ideas of ways the areas immediate surrounding Thay and even the rest of Faerun would do when this all takes place. Maybe someone has an interesting idea that would bring Alustriel or the Harpers into the mix. Throw it here and let's discuss it. Hopefully the stuff that we come up with together will not only help me make a more enjoyable game for my players, but will give some good ideas to other DMs for maybe some offshoots to run or even to base their own campaign around.
Mialee, Elven Wizard 07-10-04, 10:06 PM	oops, lol wrong thread
The Simbul 07-10-04, 10:22 PM	So a group of Thayan Priests is going to A) overthrow and annhilate 90% of the Red Wizards in the country, B) maintain absolute rule in their society, C) keep their country from bein overrun by it's neighbors, and D) all the while still proving to be a viable threat to the rest of Faerun?? Thats like the 9 foot 300 pound armed-to-the-teeth Mercenary in the bar saying "Im'gonna slice you to ribbons....but first let me hack both my arms off with this rusty waraxe..." Normally I delight at the notion of killing Red Wizards, but there are numerous holes and gaps in the logic and viability of such a political uprising, and some important facts about Thay which dont seem to have been considered: 1) Thay is a Magocracy. Removal of the Red Wizards sends the entire infrastucture of the society into chaos. The power vaccum that would result from an overthrow of the Red Wizards would not instritically mean that random Clergy X would suddenly be capable of seizing or even maintaing power. 2) No single Clergy, or perhaps even the combined might of all Clergies in Thay, could ever hope to outnumber or outmatch the Red Wizards to such a degree that they could seize power from them. Neither Priests or Merchants are common in Thay, that statement alone from the FRCS, combined with the fact that thayw's fe actual divine spellcasters are divided up between of multiple evil faiths, would mean that the Clergy of Kossuth at best would barely be capable of annexing and controling a single Tharch, and at best only for a shirt period of time. Unless Kossuth himself is running around Thaymount slaying armies of Red Wizard and smashing their fortressed, while simultaneously protecting the nation from invasion, then i doubt the success of such an endeavor. 3) The Red Wizards defeated the God-Kings of Mulhorand in their war of their independence. Even if they resorted to summoning powerful and difficult to control demons, it doesnt change the fact that in the end they were resourceful enough to challenge Divine beings walking the face of Toril. Thus putting down a small cabal of power-hungry Kossuthian worshippers would be like swatting a fly, even if Thayan Wizards are prone to rivalries and feuds. 4) You mention Szass Tam and Druxus Rhymn have an alliance, this is only 1/5 true. Half of the Zulkirs are his allies and half the Tharcons are his puppets. Szass Tam is Thay's de-factor ruler already, by virtue of the fact that he spent the past century or so removing all of his rivals, and putting pawns in their place. Half the Zulkirs are already in his corner, and the rest cannot afford to openly act against him. Simply throwing all of that away to chance, in hopes of gaining favor with some upstart religious theocracy is neither wise, nor calculated, nor something the Zulkir of Necromancy would be likely to do. 5) Removal of the Red Wizards means the death of Thay's mercantile income. Unlike Wizards, Clerics and other divine spellcasters are not reknown for their propensity towards taking multiple Item Creation feats, which in turn means that the loss of most of Thay's Red Wizards would mean Thay cannot possibly hope to supply or sustain it's enclaves, which means the rest of Faerun's nations have no reason not to attack Thay should the Thayans return to their militaristic ambitions. 6) Even with the Red Wizards, the armies of thay had still been handily defeated time and again by its neighbors. Reducing Thay's magical might by in half by removing the majority of Red Wizards would mean Thay would barely be capable of defending it's own borders or keeping it's 60% population of Slaves from revolting during the overthrow in hopes of exploiting that window of oppurtunity. 7) The removal of the Zulkir's along with the majority of the Red Wizards, would mean that Mulhorand would invade...as in IMMEDIATELY. Mulhorand to this day still considers Thay to be one of it's provinces, and a war-mongering **** like Pharoah Horustep III would not hesitate to seize upon this oppurtunity to reunify his empire, and without half of Thay's magical power gone, there would be little to stop Mulhorands legions. 8) Invading and destroying Aglarond is hardly a viable plan at this point, given that even with the Red Wizards, Thay was hardly ever capable of getting past the Umber Marshes even before the Simbul ever came to Aglarond. Without the Red Wizards, Thay is simply not capable of launching such an attack without leaving themselves disgustingly vulnerable to attacks from other nations (see Mulhorand above). Furthermore, the "destruction" of Aglarond would mean the destruction of the Yuirwood. Given the fact that it is one of the oldest and primeval forests in all of Faerun, home to the ruins of a fallen mythal city, the refuge of a lost race of elves, and holds portals to evermeet, one can easily expect that aglarond could call upon aid from many allies, both Elves and nature based clergies and druidic circles alike; primarily the Great Dale and Evermeet. Furthermore, Aglarond's continued existance is and always has been the sole reason why the Red Wizards were never able to directly strike at the inner sea nations en masse. With the fallback in trade due to the removal of the Red Wizards, most inner sea nations would not be particularly motivated to keep peaceful relations with Thay, especially if they reverted back to their militaristic aims. Thus The Simbul could easily call upon aid from Aglaronds coastal neighbors as well. 9) Having suffered centuries of invasions and war at the hands of the Red Wizards, it is just as likely that in their absence many of Thay's Neighbors might instead take the Israeli "solution" to security, mainly invading and seizing small portions of Thay's territory to act as a buffer zone between Thay and their own borders. The Red Wizards are the sole linchpin that makes Thay the militarily and economically powerful nation that it is. Without the Red Wizards, the remaining population of Thay would not be capable of protecting it's borders, keeping order, or maintaing any degree of it's magic item trade to the point where it would actually be profitable. Conquering other nations would be the last of Thay's worries if the majority of Thay's arcane spellcasters were to bite the dust.
The Simbul 07-10-04, 10:24 PM	In addition, there is also this little tidbit from The Seven Sisters: One day, she [the Simbul] vows, Thay will be destroyed, and she will call together the witches of Rashemen, the druids of many faiths, and the elves from all over Toril, and work on founding a new forest east of Aglarond, centered on Lake Thaylambar. There elves can settle in a new realm, and Alassra can then forget all the cruelties of Thay and set to work smashing the decadent Old Empires of Unther and Mulhorand, and reforming them into farming realms rather than dust-blown slave empires ruled by the crazed and the cruel. When the human-held surface lands are patchwork places of local powers and small grasp, she can set about encouraging settlements of halflings nearby, and dwarf and gnome settlements below, until those races recover the numbers, pride, and culture they enjoyed before being crushed beneath the ruthless numbers and ambitions of orcs and humans. Not only does that help reinforce the logic behind the ability for Aglarond to call upon the Druids, Elves, and Witches of Rashemen for the defense of the Yuirwood, but the removal of the Red Wizards altogether would be enough of a power-vaccumm to give the Simbul more than enough of a head-start on this long-term plan.
Kain's avatar 07-11-04, 12:57 AM	Originally posted by The Simbul In addition, there is also this little tidbit from The Seven Sisters: Not only does that help reinforce the logic behind the ability for Aglarond to call upon the Druids, Elves, and Witches of Rashemen for the defense of the Yuirwood, but the removal of the Red Wizards altogether would be enough of a power-vaccumm to give the Simbul more than enough of a head-start on this long-term plan. The way she lives she will more than likely die before that ever happens... ;)
Skaboozh 07-11-04, 01:23 AM	Simbul, that's great information. My knowledge of the Realms is limited to what I've been able to read in the FRCS, Unapproachable East, Lords of Darkness, and The Silver Marches. Great to hear some detailed info about these places. What if the Red Wizards staged a civil war? What if they made it look like they were weakening, their years of oppressing their people finally backfiring into an rebellion led by this upstart and popular clergy? Like you said, most of the rest of the east would jump at the chance to attack a vulnerable Thay. Would it be conceivable that the Red Wizards have set all this up to make themselves look vulnerable in order to lure their enemies onto Thayan soil? The bandits that have come under Thayan control could then strike vital points on their enemies' lands while their enemies main forces are fighting a stronger force than expected in Thay. The reason that Thay has never been successful in conquering the areas around Thay is because they've never really been able to fully organize themselves, amongst other reasons, right? So surely some if not all of the zulkirs would realize this, and would assume that they'd have everyone's full forces if the enemy was trying to invade Thay itself, right? It'd be like leading the enemy right into a slaughter. Instead of the PCs trying to win a war, they could try and prevent one. Is this something worth fleshing out? Does it seem pretty feasible?
Cunning Linguist 07-11-04, 06:41 AM	I'd like to point out that despite Thay only being around for the last 451 years, they have been able to take over Alaor, the Priador, the Sur, and Umbar Vales and the cities on the Wizards' Reach. The rule goes: Thay cannot overtake large amout of land, becouse the zulkirs cannot work togheter, however, if there is problems inside Thay, they all band togheter and fix it. So, if there was a rebelion that got out of hand, the better have monster allies that can match things that would pour out of the gates of the Nine Layers of Hell, if they where ever opened. Remember that Thay has 10-100 times the resurches now that they had when they broke of from Mulhorand. If they got the Lord Eltab to work for them then, think what they can do now? And if the Red Wizards where about to fall, I would think that some Red Wizards would destroy Thay, rather then have divine casters control it, and would dispell there weather controlling magic, and after hundreds of years of weather controll in that area, who knows what kind of backlash damange that would do.
The Simbul 07-11-04, 06:53 PM	Originally posted by Cunning Linguist And if the Red Wizards where about to fall, I would think that some Red Wizards would destroy Thay, rather then have divine casters control it, and would dispell there weather controlling magic, and after hundreds of years of weather controll in that area, who knows what kind of backlash damange that would do. Expanding upon that, depending upon how powerful the "Mythal-like" wards that cover Thaymount are, I can imagine suicidal pacts of Red Wizards deliberatly trying to destroy or sunder it; not only to deprive Thay's new masters of it's protection, but also perhaps in hopes of creating a giant Dead Magic zone through the destruction of such potent and overlapping magic. Which needless to say would make quashing any slave revolts quie difficult for the majority of any spellcasters who remain.
The Simbul 07-12-04, 01:22 AM	Originally posted by Skaboozh What if the Red Wizards staged a civil war? What if they made it look like they were weakening, their years of oppressing their people finally backfiring into an rebellion led by this upstart and popular clergy? Like you said, most of the rest of the east would jump at the chance to attack a vulnerable Thay. Would it be conceivable that the Red Wizards have set all this up to make themselves look vulnerable in order to lure their enemies onto Thayan soil? The bandits that have come under Thayan control could then strike vital points on their enemies' lands while their enemies main forces are fighting a stronger force than expected in Thay.Actually my comments regarding other nations seizing the opportunity were under the assumption that the overthrow had already occured, i.e. most of the Red Wizards had somehow perished and Thay was in turmoil. If in fact a civil war was currently going on, then I imagine most of Thay's neighbors would wait to get involved until it was over and the victorious side had been weakened by the insurgency. If certain neighboring nations had an affinity to one side or the other, then perhaps they might secretly aid them with with weapons, supplies, or information, but I doubt they would get directly involved until the civil war had subsided. It would likewise be extremely difficult for the prominent Red Wizards and poltical figures to all simultaneously stage their own demise in hopes of luring in foreign invaders, primarily because the second a Zulkir perishes (or at least is believed to have done so) virtually every prominent Red Wizard of his or her school will be vying for that school's Zulkirship. Likewise any surviving Zulkirs or prominent poltical figures will also attempt to place pawns or puppets in the new Zulkirate or Tharcion vacancy. Which needless to say would only cause a real civil war when the former and possibly hiding Zulkirs decide to reclaim their post. In addition, a massive deception of this nature would be quite difficult to conceal. Thay's neighbors survive by their ability to gather information from within thay itself, whether that be through spies, informants, or other methods. In addition, if the novels are to be taken at face value, then the Simbul possesses some un-named scrying artifact which can partially piece the potent wards against divination that surround much of Thay and it's political elites, and she is described as rountinely and subtley spying upon the Zulkirs and their plans. Likewise the Mulhorandi are of the same ethinicty and naturally speak the same language, thus one could imagine their spymasters would have an easier time infiltrating Thayan society. In addition, given that Thay is much more open to the outside world, both by virtue of the slave trade, the massive mercantile enclave enterprise, it would be difficult to conceal so grand a scheme for long.
Skaboozh 07-12-04, 02:47 AM	1.) I apologize for not making myself clearer. The surrounding nations would no doubt wait until the "civil war" in Thay was over. 2.) That could be a problem, but one that I think could be dealt with. Suppose it becomes a necessity to keep up the ruse that a zulkir needs to have appeared to be killed, let someone else step in as zulkir of that school. No political vying, etc., just the remaining zulkirs would say so and so is the new zulkir of whatever, and move on. 3.) Actually making people buy into this would no doubt be the most difficult thing. One thing Thay would have on its side is the fact that I think some of the surrounding areas would love to believe that they have a real chance to topple Thay, so they might subconsciously divert themselves from fully investigating whether or not this is for real. Spies would be another issue, but I think it could be dealt with by having certain Thayans actually spying for Aglarond and the surrounding nations. You know, having actual Thayans becoming spies for the Simbul. Obviously this would have been in development for much time. You could bring up how the Simbul would probably have proper magic to identify these counter-spies, but you could as easily believe that the Red Wizards have magic to make these counter-spies' alliances undetectable. A few of these counter-spies reporting to those in power that there is indeed a war in Thay, even cooking up some good tales as to how the war started, who's looking to gain power, how weak Thay will be as the war ends, etc. Assuming other spies don't report the opposite, it would be pretty believable. Of course, there's the fact of trying to keep other spies from reporting back with conflicting information, but that can be written off by saying that these counter-spies were able to make themselves privy through any number of ways who most of these other spies were, and they were dealt with accordingly (imprisonment, mind control, death, etc.) I'm not saying it's perfect, but no fictional tale ever is. There is always a way to poke a hole through some sort of plot element in the story. The trick is making the whole believable enough so that any potential hole could be glanced over, especially by those that probably wouldn't even recognize the hole anyway. Would something like this ever happen in Thay as I've described? No, probably not. But is it believable enough? Could it be explained away enough that the players buy into, players who are nowhere near as knowledgable about the area as you are, could they buy into it and enjoy the story? I think they could, but I'm interested in your opinion. With the amount of magic available, I know it would be hard to truly cover this up to the surrounding nations, and I know it would be difficult to organize such a plot within Thay itself, but is it conceivable enough that with some somewhat logical reasoning attached to the various sticking points the players could buy into it and enjoy themselves?
Enslaved DM 07-12-04, 06:34 PM	1) The Red Wizards kill 1/2 of their trainees. Red Wizards are SOBs not because they are born evil, but because they are put through harsh conditions. That's why they are non-good. Those that don't learn to step on people don't make it through training. That doesn't make every single one of them a drooling sociopath. The conditions they live under reward ruthlessness, so they are pretty nasty. Read the Simbul's Gift. The Zulkir of Enchantment is pretty sympathetic, although he's still a Zulkir. 2) The Red Wizard's are why Thay is so dangerous. It has a lot of ruthless, well trained, Social Darwinest wizards who dream about enslaving demon lords and employing armies of elementals. It's agriculture is dependent on magically altered weather and slave labour. It can't even feed itself if the Red Wizards are out of the picture. And removing the Wizards would necessitate a civil war that would ravage the country. Thay isn't a threat without them. It would be too busy trying to rebuild itself.
EHFreitag 07-14-04, 02:08 PM	If you want the 3rd wizard to br someone important that stays around, make it Samas Kul, who i believe is the leader of the trade guild, this could lead to many of the wizards who produce the items to be spared the flames of kossuth (pun intended) and keep thay in an economically powerful position.
Sarta 07-15-04, 08:09 AM	To just add a few more wrinkles to this scenario: 1. The reason that the religion of Kossuth has such a high standing (which still isn't all that high compared to churches in other nations) is that it is largely supported by many of the red wizards themselves as worshippers. As a result of the paranoia wizards in Thay have of both organized religion and other red wizards, any actions that the church of Kossuth would attempt to seize power would be squashed before they got out of the planning stage. 2. Thay's slave population is largely kept in check by spells to keep them charmed or mindless drones working to aid their masters. Very few would attempt to seek freedom or even know what they would do once they had it. The vast majority would be terrified of even the prospect of a slave revolt. Personally, if I wanted to focus on a way for a campaign to help overcome Thay, I'd suggest instead that the party work toward helping Mulhorand wipe out Unther as quickly as possible. If the party worked quickly and hard with diplomacy in the right ears, they could possibly convince the nation of Mullhorand to continue their push into Thay. Further diplomacy could possibly convince the various city-states of Chessenta to aid -- especially if a binding non-agression treaty from Mulhorand were to be established. Further aid could possibly be found from many of Thay's other neighbors. Mulhorand is going to wind up with a lot of looted resources -- Unther was very rich in gold and iron. They will also have obtained many new slaves which could be forced to fight. These commodities would definitely aid in taking on Thay. Sarta