A Night Below...Possible?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Night Below...Possible?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Renvale999
06-12-07, 03:13 PM Okay, for those who haven't played or read the module(1st edition I believe) "A Night Below" it basically revolves around a really nasty aboleth taking all the schools of magic and combining them into one school to create a very nasty domination spell that would start at the aboleths city's core(deep in the Underdark) and spread up and onto the surface, bringing all those in contact with it under it's spell.

Now, I was wondering if you guys thought, with Mystra in charge or the Weave, would she even allow such a thing to happen, as it changes the fundemental rules of magic?

Or could it be an Epic Spell??

I was thinking about running a campaign aroud this premise but I wanted to get input first. As far as "how" the aboleth does it, to be honest I don't know(I haven't played the module in forever), but I just want you guy's opinions on whether or not Mystra would simply pimp slap said aboleth in the face for messing with the Weave.
allenchan
06-12-07, 03:26 PM Recent supplements have offered dual-school'd spells. Does Mystra have a problem with those? Sort of the same question on a much tinier scale.
Faraer
06-12-07, 03:32 PM Years since I read it, but are you sure changing the rules of magic is involved? I'm sure there are easier ways.Recent supplements have offered dual-school'd spells.And it's commonplace in 1E and 2E sources: the idea of spells needing to be of a single school is a 3E rules artefact. I'm not even sure schools mean much at deep levels of the Art.
MarkusTay63
06-12-07, 04:44 PM Since it's an NPC doing the casting, then I would just chalk it up to 'Epic Magic' and leave it at that. You really don't need to manufacture a complete set of rules for something an NPC is doing.
Paix
06-12-07, 09:14 PM One of the best adventures I ever played. It is second edition and the combination of more than one school of magic was not something uncommon in that edition.

I do not know the reasons of such a prohibition in this edition, if there are any, but in terms of lore, Mystra has no reason to intervene. The Aboleths do not attempt to warp or destroy the weave but extent their innate powers. Being one of the oldest races in Faerun, it is safe to assume that their spellcasting traditions are beyond the understanding of player characters and they can perhaps teach a thing or two to the current incarnation of Mystra.

I also believe that after the Time of Troubles and events following it, the new Mystra has learned to not interfere as actively.
Ramar Aulinvox
06-12-07, 10:30 PM The aboleths didn't use the magic to create one school. They used four schools of magic to augment their natural domination abilities. They used transmutation to increase the range (b/c metamagic was seen as transmutation), necromacy to lower the opponents resistance, enchantment for the effect, and conjuration (can't remember why off the top of my head). During the adventure, you use the 2nd ed opposing schools to negate the affect. As such, I don't think Mystra would bother with it considering this type of magical research is the exact thing that increases her power.
Renvale999
06-13-07, 09:47 AM The aboleths didn't use the magic to create one school. They used four schools of magic to augment their natural domination abilities. They used transmutation to increase the range (b/c metamagic was seen as transmutation), necromacy to lower the opponents resistance, enchantment for the effect, and conjuration (can't remember why off the top of my head). During the adventure, you use the 2nd ed opposing schools to negate the affect. As such, I don't think Mystra would bother with it considering this type of magical research is the exact thing that increases her power.

Ah see, I forgot about that part...I was too busy being upset with my DM cause that is one of the worst rail-roading games I've ever been in.

Anyway, I can see your point. I think I'm going to start working on this game, I think it's a good concept, anyone have any suggestions, gripes, ideas??
MarkusTay63
06-13-07, 02:39 PM This was ever-so-slightly discussed in the Elven Netbook (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=732165) thread.

If you look at the adventure map, you will see the High Moor. Technically, it is not the same as FR's High Moor, but there is no reason why it can't be. The intro to the module recommends using FR, and the name itself comes from FR! I get the feeling it was originally designed with the Realms in mind, but then they made it generic to appeal to a wider audience - kind of like what they are doing with Undermountain right now.

The Rockseer Elves in that module work very well as a group of Illythir or Miyeritar Green Elves that fled Corellon's wrath after the Drow descended. For more on that tie-in, click on the 'mythical Rockseer Elves' link in the ToC in the above thread.
Renvale999
06-13-07, 03:08 PM This was ever-so-slightly discussed in the Elven Netbook (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=732165) thread.

If you look at the adventure map, you will see the High Moor. Technically, it is not the same as FR's High Moor, but there is no reason why it can't be. The intro to the module recommends using FR, and the name itself comes from FR! I get the feeling it was originally designed with the Realms in mind, but then they made it generic to appeal to a wider audience - kind of like what they are doing with Undermountain right now.

The Rockseer Elves in that module work very well as a group of Illythir or Miyeritar Green Elves that fled Corellon's wrath after the Drow descended. For more on that tie-in, click on the 'mythical Rockseer Elves' link in the ToC in the above thread.

Dang it Markus, you're reminding me of all the cool stuff in that game, I was just gonna use the concept, but now I'm probably gonna go and get the module....thanks for making me spend money..:P
MarkusTay63
06-13-07, 03:25 PM Anytime.

I try to expand on the FR lore as much as possible, without rumppling too many feathers.

A very fine line to tread, indeed. ;)
Crust
06-13-07, 03:31 PM I ran this back in the late 90s. Tons of fun. They made it as far as the underground lake and were all killed by a drow lich they had foolishly released from stasis. I never really got into the aboleths and their doings.

I would just assume the aboleths are tapping into the Weave for a brief time, long enough to unleash their domination across Faerun.
Faraer
06-13-07, 03:31 PM I get the feeling it was originally designed with the Realms in mind, but then they made it generic to appeal to a wider audience - kind of like what they are doing with Undermountain right now.Night Below was written for the World of Greyhawk, Carl Sargent being the main Greyhawk author of the time. The Sunless Sea geography expands on the maps in the D-series modules.
MarkusTay63
06-13-07, 03:41 PM I used to run Greyhawk, and was VERY passionate about it, but I do not remember the Underdark EVER being refered to as the 'Night Below' in that setting.

The first time I came across that phrase was in FR.

Thanks for the info on the D-series of modules, I was unaware of the connection (I very rarely ran pre-fab adventures back then).
Faraer
06-13-07, 03:56 PM I don't recall "Night Below" being used as a term for the subterranean lands in that adventure or in either setting!

(The word "Underdark" originated in Dungeoneer's Survival Guide and was quickly applied to the official Realms and Greyhawk settings. I prefer "Realms Below" in Faerūn, and Oerth also has its own perfectly good terms.)

If you look at the Night Below map and compare with those with D1-3, they match right up.
Renvale999
06-13-07, 05:12 PM I don't recall "Night Below" being used as a term for the subterranean lands in that adventure or in either setting!

(The word "Underdark" originated in Dungeoneer's Survival Guide and was quickly applied to the official Realms and Greyhawk settings. I prefer "Realms Below" in Faerūn, and Oerth also has its own perfectly good terms.)

If you look at the Night Below map and compare with those with D1-3, they match right up.

Sweetness, I have those modules...I planned on running the Queen of Demonweb Pits (From G1-G3, D1-3 and then Q1) but my players chickened out so I never ran it lol.

Anybody know what level you started and ended in Night Below?? I remember starting at first and ending at 19th lvl(3.0 conversion, done crappily but was fun none-the-less, just hated it sometimes cause there was some serious "DM Magic" in that module).
MarkusTay63
06-13-07, 05:39 PM I don't recall "Night Below" being used as a term for the subterranean lands in that adventure or in either setting!But "Night Below" was used as a name for FRs Underdark, in a novel I believe. Since that is the name of the Boxed Set, I think I am missing you point. :confused:

Since I remember hearing "Underdark" before getting into FR I would have to agree that it appeared late in GHs life.
Faraer
06-13-07, 06:04 PM 4–8 characters of 1st (or 2nd) level, rising to 9th–11th at the end of its 2nd of 3 books.

OK, the term "Night Below" is used in a few Realms sources, including DDGttU and Demihuman Deities. It might be in a pre-1995 novel as well, but I doubt Carl would have read it or be making a deliberate connection to the Realms.
MarkusTay63
06-13-07, 06:14 PM If it was in a novel, it would most likely be in one by Salvatore, and he may have even created the term for all I know.

I hate not having a definate source to quote, but I do remember reading it fairly well because I remember thinking how cool that turn-of-phrase was. When Night Below came out, I bought it naturally assuming it was an FR product. When I found out it was core I put it aside and never really read through the entire thing.

You know, perhaps my logic is working backwards on this. Suppose the product was originally designed for GH, as you say. Because GH was in decline at that time and FR was up-and-coming the marketing guys threw that "nome' de plume" on the cover just to attract FR fans, which it did in my case.
Ramar Aulinvox
06-16-07, 05:53 PM In 2nd ed, you started at 1 or 2nd level and were suppose to end around 16-18th level [when I dm'ed it we started in 2nd ed. and finished in 3rd; we stopped in 2nd shortly into the 3rd book at level 10; finished in 3rd ed at 21st level with only 4 of 8 players surviving]. I think I figured out the experience of a four player team being higher level; ruffly 16th level by the end of book two. Considering the combat situations in the adventure, I would have six to eight characters. [As I said, we started with eight; had nine at one point. Only one of the original characters made it the whole way through the game. 10 characters total died during the making of that game]
CriminalTruth
06-17-07, 10:03 AM I had this and its suppose to be 4-6 lvl 1 char's ending APPROX to lvl 10

IN 2ND ED.

the funny thing is i remember the last monster was worth 300,000 EXP. in 2ND ED.

and a TARRASQUE was only worth 100,000

and in 2nd ed... i ran a mock fight ...

the RASQUE kicked its ass har har
Thinblade
06-17-07, 11:27 AM It was even worse if you ran it using 2e psionics, the way illithids and aboleths are supposed to have. I love 2e psionics. Broken? Oh, heck yes. But so much better than this feux-magic stuff we have in 3e. When I ran it, I mandated that half of the part be either single or multi-class psionicists, just to give them a fighting chance. Man, that was fun.
CriminalTruth
06-18-07, 06:33 AM It was even worse if you ran it using 2e psionics, the way illithids and aboleths are supposed to have. I love 2e psionics. Broken? Oh, heck yes. But so much better than this feux-magic stuff we have in 3e. When I ran it, I mandated that half of the part be either single or multi-class psionicists, just to give them a fighting chance. Man, that was fun.

Accually 2e psionics was probrobly the WEAKEST class available in 2nd if you played them as the rules were written. The problem was that most people embelished what certain powers could do, the most broken part about psionics in 2nd was "wild talents". and the 3.5 verstion i thought finnally brought psionics where they belong. right in the middle
Drew1369r
06-21-07, 02:40 PM What a neat idea... combine the schools into a super spell. Meh, to comment Mystra wouldn't stop it as its creating new magic, and would end up ******* off the other gods... she has to maintain nuetrality of the weave.
Ramar Aulinvox
06-22-07, 03:58 PM It was even worse if you ran it using 2e psionics, the way illithids and aboleths are supposed to have. I love 2e psionics. Broken? Oh, heck yes. But so much better than this feux-magic stuff we have in 3e. When I ran it, I mandated that half of the part be either single or multi-class psionicists, just to give them a fighting chance. Man, that was fun.

Yea, with everything going on in that adventure, I took the book's advice and ran it without psionics for the most part. The way I rationalized it in the realms is that the aboleth and illithids helping in Great Shaboath are the magic varients of both species while the illithid renegades were the psionic variety [this helped to get around the idea of a bunch of magic-using psionic creates doing an epic magic ritual and gave me less of a head-ache].

I agree that it could be vary broken at low levels [a 5-6th L. character could use disintegration or dominate] but would be a little worse off in other areas at higher levels [necessary continued psp expention and concentration for summoning creatures]. I have to say that I did love it but XHB and the other Malhovic press psionic stuff makes up for it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Renvale999 06-12-07, 03:13 PM	Okay, for those who haven't played or read the module(1st edition I believe) "A Night Below" it basically revolves around a really nasty aboleth taking all the schools of magic and combining them into one school to create a very nasty domination spell that would start at the aboleths city's core(deep in the Underdark) and spread up and onto the surface, bringing all those in contact with it under it's spell. Now, I was wondering if you guys thought, with Mystra in charge or the Weave, would she even allow such a thing to happen, as it changes the fundemental rules of magic? Or could it be an Epic Spell?? I was thinking about running a campaign aroud this premise but I wanted to get input first. As far as "how" the aboleth does it, to be honest I don't know(I haven't played the module in forever), but I just want you guy's opinions on whether or not Mystra would simply pimp slap said aboleth in the face for messing with the Weave.
allenchan 06-12-07, 03:26 PM	Recent supplements have offered dual-school'd spells. Does Mystra have a problem with those? Sort of the same question on a much tinier scale.
Faraer 06-12-07, 03:32 PM	Years since I read it, but are you sure changing the rules of magic is involved? I'm sure there are easier ways.Recent supplements have offered dual-school'd spells.And it's commonplace in 1E and 2E sources: the idea of spells needing to be of a single school is a 3E rules artefact. I'm not even sure schools mean much at deep levels of the Art.
MarkusTay63 06-12-07, 04:44 PM	Since it's an NPC doing the casting, then I would just chalk it up to 'Epic Magic' and leave it at that. You really don't need to manufacture a complete set of rules for something an NPC is doing.
Paix 06-12-07, 09:14 PM	One of the best adventures I ever played. It is second edition and the combination of more than one school of magic was not something uncommon in that edition. I do not know the reasons of such a prohibition in this edition, if there are any, but in terms of lore, Mystra has no reason to intervene. The Aboleths do not attempt to warp or destroy the weave but extent their innate powers. Being one of the oldest races in Faerun, it is safe to assume that their spellcasting traditions are beyond the understanding of player characters and they can perhaps teach a thing or two to the current incarnation of Mystra. I also believe that after the Time of Troubles and events following it, the new Mystra has learned to not interfere as actively.
Ramar Aulinvox 06-12-07, 10:30 PM	The aboleths didn't use the magic to create one school. They used four schools of magic to augment their natural domination abilities. They used transmutation to increase the range (b/c metamagic was seen as transmutation), necromacy to lower the opponents resistance, enchantment for the effect, and conjuration (can't remember why off the top of my head). During the adventure, you use the 2nd ed opposing schools to negate the affect. As such, I don't think Mystra would bother with it considering this type of magical research is the exact thing that increases her power.
Renvale999 06-13-07, 09:47 AM	The aboleths didn't use the magic to create one school. They used four schools of magic to augment their natural domination abilities. They used transmutation to increase the range (b/c metamagic was seen as transmutation), necromacy to lower the opponents resistance, enchantment for the effect, and conjuration (can't remember why off the top of my head). During the adventure, you use the 2nd ed opposing schools to negate the affect. As such, I don't think Mystra would bother with it considering this type of magical research is the exact thing that increases her power. Ah see, I forgot about that part...I was too busy being upset with my DM cause that is one of the worst rail-roading games I've ever been in. Anyway, I can see your point. I think I'm going to start working on this game, I think it's a good concept, anyone have any suggestions, gripes, ideas??
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 02:39 PM	This was ever-so-slightly discussed in the Elven Netbook (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=732165) thread. If you look at the adventure map, you will see the High Moor. Technically, it is not the same as FR's High Moor, but there is no reason why it can't be. The intro to the module recommends using FR, and the name itself comes from FR! I get the feeling it was originally designed with the Realms in mind, but then they made it generic to appeal to a wider audience - kind of like what they are doing with Undermountain right now. The Rockseer Elves in that module work very well as a group of Illythir or Miyeritar Green Elves that fled Corellon's wrath after the Drow descended. For more on that tie-in, click on the 'mythical Rockseer Elves' link in the ToC in the above thread.
Renvale999 06-13-07, 03:08 PM	This was ever-so-slightly discussed in the Elven Netbook (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=732165) thread. If you look at the adventure map, you will see the High Moor. Technically, it is not the same as FR's High Moor, but there is no reason why it can't be. The intro to the module recommends using FR, and the name itself comes from FR! I get the feeling it was originally designed with the Realms in mind, but then they made it generic to appeal to a wider audience - kind of like what they are doing with Undermountain right now. The Rockseer Elves in that module work very well as a group of Illythir or Miyeritar Green Elves that fled Corellon's wrath after the Drow descended. For more on that tie-in, click on the 'mythical Rockseer Elves' link in the ToC in the above thread. Dang it Markus, you're reminding me of all the cool stuff in that game, I was just gonna use the concept, but now I'm probably gonna go and get the module....thanks for making me spend money..:P
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 03:25 PM	Anytime. I try to expand on the FR lore as much as possible, without rumppling too many feathers. A very fine line to tread, indeed. ;)
Crust 06-13-07, 03:31 PM	I ran this back in the late 90s. Tons of fun. They made it as far as the underground lake and were all killed by a drow lich they had foolishly released from stasis. I never really got into the aboleths and their doings. I would just assume the aboleths are tapping into the Weave for a brief time, long enough to unleash their domination across Faerun.
Faraer 06-13-07, 03:31 PM	I get the feeling it was originally designed with the Realms in mind, but then they made it generic to appeal to a wider audience - kind of like what they are doing with Undermountain right now.Night Below was written for the World of Greyhawk, Carl Sargent being the main Greyhawk author of the time. The Sunless Sea geography expands on the maps in the D-series modules.
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 03:41 PM	I used to run Greyhawk, and was VERY passionate about it, but I do not remember the Underdark EVER being refered to as the 'Night Below' in that setting. The first time I came across that phrase was in FR. Thanks for the info on the D-series of modules, I was unaware of the connection (I very rarely ran pre-fab adventures back then).
Faraer 06-13-07, 03:56 PM	I don't recall "Night Below" being used as a term for the subterranean lands in that adventure or in either setting! (The word "Underdark" originated in Dungeoneer's Survival Guide and was quickly applied to the official Realms and Greyhawk settings. I prefer "Realms Below" in Faerūn, and Oerth also has its own perfectly good terms.) If you look at the Night Below map and compare with those with D1-3, they match right up.
Renvale999 06-13-07, 05:12 PM	I don't recall "Night Below" being used as a term for the subterranean lands in that adventure or in either setting! (The word "Underdark" originated in Dungeoneer's Survival Guide and was quickly applied to the official Realms and Greyhawk settings. I prefer "Realms Below" in Faerūn, and Oerth also has its own perfectly good terms.) If you look at the Night Below map and compare with those with D1-3, they match right up. Sweetness, I have those modules...I planned on running the Queen of Demonweb Pits (From G1-G3, D1-3 and then Q1) but my players chickened out so I never ran it lol. Anybody know what level you started and ended in Night Below?? I remember starting at first and ending at 19th lvl(3.0 conversion, done crappily but was fun none-the-less, just hated it sometimes cause there was some serious "DM Magic" in that module).
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 05:39 PM	I don't recall "Night Below" being used as a term for the subterranean lands in that adventure or in either setting!But "Night Below" was used as a name for FRs Underdark, in a novel I believe. Since that is the name of the Boxed Set, I think I am missing you point. :confused: Since I remember hearing "Underdark" before getting into FR I would have to agree that it appeared late in GHs life.
Faraer 06-13-07, 06:04 PM	4–8 characters of 1st (or 2nd) level, rising to 9th–11th at the end of its 2nd of 3 books. OK, the term "Night Below" is used in a few Realms sources, including DDGttU and Demihuman Deities. It might be in a pre-1995 novel as well, but I doubt Carl would have read it or be making a deliberate connection to the Realms.
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 06:14 PM	If it was in a novel, it would most likely be in one by Salvatore, and he may have even created the term for all I know. I hate not having a definate source to quote, but I do remember reading it fairly well because I remember thinking how cool that turn-of-phrase was. When Night Below came out, I bought it naturally assuming it was an FR product. When I found out it was core I put it aside and never really read through the entire thing. You know, perhaps my logic is working backwards on this. Suppose the product was originally designed for GH, as you say. Because GH was in decline at that time and FR was up-and-coming the marketing guys threw that "nome' de plume" on the cover just to attract FR fans, which it did in my case.
Ramar Aulinvox 06-16-07, 05:53 PM	In 2nd ed, you started at 1 or 2nd level and were suppose to end around 16-18th level [when I dm'ed it we started in 2nd ed. and finished in 3rd; we stopped in 2nd shortly into the 3rd book at level 10; finished in 3rd ed at 21st level with only 4 of 8 players surviving]. I think I figured out the experience of a four player team being higher level; ruffly 16th level by the end of book two. Considering the combat situations in the adventure, I would have six to eight characters. [As I said, we started with eight; had nine at one point. Only one of the original characters made it the whole way through the game. 10 characters total died during the making of that game]
CriminalTruth 06-17-07, 10:03 AM	I had this and its suppose to be 4-6 lvl 1 char's ending APPROX to lvl 10 IN 2ND ED. the funny thing is i remember the last monster was worth 300,000 EXP. in 2ND ED. and a TARRASQUE was only worth 100,000 and in 2nd ed... i ran a mock fight ... the RASQUE kicked its ass har har
Thinblade 06-17-07, 11:27 AM	It was even worse if you ran it using 2e psionics, the way illithids and aboleths are supposed to have. I love 2e psionics. Broken? Oh, heck yes. But so much better than this feux-magic stuff we have in 3e. When I ran it, I mandated that half of the part be either single or multi-class psionicists, just to give them a fighting chance. Man, that was fun.
CriminalTruth 06-18-07, 06:33 AM	It was even worse if you ran it using 2e psionics, the way illithids and aboleths are supposed to have. I love 2e psionics. Broken? Oh, heck yes. But so much better than this feux-magic stuff we have in 3e. When I ran it, I mandated that half of the part be either single or multi-class psionicists, just to give them a fighting chance. Man, that was fun. Accually 2e psionics was probrobly the WEAKEST class available in 2nd if you played them as the rules were written. The problem was that most people embelished what certain powers could do, the most broken part about psionics in 2nd was "wild talents". and the 3.5 verstion i thought finnally brought psionics where they belong. right in the middle
Drew1369r 06-21-07, 02:40 PM	What a neat idea... combine the schools into a super spell. Meh, to comment Mystra wouldn't stop it as its creating new magic, and would end up ******* off the other gods... she has to maintain nuetrality of the weave.
Ramar Aulinvox 06-22-07, 03:58 PM	It was even worse if you ran it using 2e psionics, the way illithids and aboleths are supposed to have. I love 2e psionics. Broken? Oh, heck yes. But so much better than this feux-magic stuff we have in 3e. When I ran it, I mandated that half of the part be either single or multi-class psionicists, just to give them a fighting chance. Man, that was fun. Yea, with everything going on in that adventure, I took the book's advice and ran it without psionics for the most part. The way I rationalized it in the realms is that the aboleth and illithids helping in Great Shaboath are the magic varients of both species while the illithid renegades were the psionic variety [this helped to get around the idea of a bunch of magic-using psionic creates doing an epic magic ritual and gave me less of a head-ache]. I agree that it could be vary broken at low levels [a 5-6th L. character could use disintegration or dominate] but would be a little worse off in other areas at higher levels [necessary continued psp expention and concentration for summoning creatures]. I have to say that I did love it but XHB and the other Malhovic press psionic stuff makes up for it.