Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Todesherr 10-14-06, 05:51 AM	My Character is having a tough time making a decision. He is a Lawful Good Paladin of Torm. Some members of my party have been charged and apprehended by questionable authorities in a minor city. They were tried and are being held away in a prison that seems to be located in some dank fortress. Now the whole reason why the party was in the city was the rumour of people dissapearing, some of which were quite important. Our intelligence led us to believe that this was some plot of the Church of Bane working with some other organisation (possibly a thieve's guild) and there maybe some bizzare and evil ritual going on in the fortress, however we didn't have hard evidence and still don't. Something very evil is happening and I could sense it (detect evil; I got a throbbing headache when I detected evil). The party member's trial seemed to have been conducted in accordance with the law; I examined and scrutinised the local law books and they were convicted of tresspassing on private property and theft (presumably the documents we needed for hard evidence and/or detailed information). So technically they did commit a crime. Apart from that you can see that we are all basically midlevel and then the three others were captured there must have been a powerful force of opposition. We were a party of 6 and 3 were taken into custody. For elucidation the party consists of: Not Capatured LG Male Aasimar Fighter 4/Paladin 4 of Torm (me) CG Male Half-Elf Fighter 1/Ranger 8 of Tymora CG Male Rock Gnome Rogue 4/Bard 5 Captured NG Male Human Cleric 9 of Lathander CG Male Half-orc Fighter 4/Barbarian 5 NG Male Human Wizard 9 So you see we are all good aligned but I am the only LG. They did commit a crime and were sentenced to prison under the law so you can see the dillema. My remaining non-captured companions (CG) don't care at all for the legalities of what is going on and in real life I wouldn't either. But as a Paladin I represent both Law and Good. We either need to break into the head magistrate's mansion or the fortress proper but that would be in clear violation of the law. I remember reading in Exalted Deeds that ultimately Good comes before the Law and I am inclined to think that way too but I know the DM is testing me. What to do, what to do? If we break and enter and find nothing then I am in even worse trouble as I have consciously broken the law to no avail. Still I know that the Head Magistrate stinks of evil and that the area around the fortress radiates very strong evil. Any advice?:confused:
Ripe 10-14-06, 07:30 AM	First of all, I don't agree with that Exalted nonsense about Good coming before the Law. They're both equally important and they both equally define who you are. That said, what is your Lawfull character doing with predominantly Chaotic party? After all, to a LG character there is really little difference between CG and LE one. Now, as for what would your character do... nothing. He wouldn't help rescuing convicted criminals from prison, but he would also not report to authorities that someone is trying to stage a prison break [which is what a LN would do.
Todesherr 10-14-06, 07:59 AM	Well I remember a 2nd ed. Guide to Paladins comment where it said that good, even if it is chaotic is better than evil. There is another statement from another book, I believe Exalted that says an Archon can far better countenance the Chaos of the Eladrins than the Evil of Devils. I think there is a huge difference between LE and CG to a LG character. Even if they are technically evenly removed, LE is still evil and by definition worse than any variety of good for a paladin. The others chose the alignments they wanted. There have been occasional disagreements as to how to go about things with the NG guys moderating the debates but all in all we work well as a team. I can't just do nothing. The authorities are corrupt and I know that is a fact and while attempted theft and tresspassing are crimes I am reasoning they did it for the greater good. I have to think about it. I will try to pray to Torm for guidance... First of all, I don't agree with that Exalted nonsense about Good coming before the Law. They're both equally important and they both equally define who you are. That said, what is your Lawfull character doing with predominantly Chaotic party? After all, to a LG character there is really little difference between CG and LE one. Now, as for what would your character do... nothing. He wouldn't help rescuing convicted criminals from prison, but he would also not report to authorities that someone is trying to stage a prison break [which is what a LN would do.
thorchilde 10-14-06, 12:08 PM	Is your paladin the leader of the group? What have your companions been sentenced to? Do you know that the magistrate is evil, and how do you know? You say that you suspect the church of Bane, why? Their are many mitigating factors involved in alignment conflicts, and as a DM I can tell you that each DM has a different perspective of how characters should act based on their alignment. Commiting an evil act for the greater good, is evil... So then commiting a chaotic act for justice to be done, is chatoic. The other question that I would ask is, who are you doing this for. Were you hired to inspect, or are you taking action based on rumors.
Todesherr 10-14-06, 12:42 PM	Well, 2 of the party members have Harper connections and they informed us about the situation so he went to the city to investigate. There we met another Harper who gave us a specific lead about a local priest of Lathander that maintained a shrine in the city. That sparked the interest of our party's cleric and we asked around. It seems he had disappeared because he may have been on to something. I went seperately to speak to the magistrate whilst some of the others gathered info. He had an odd demeanor and when he was distracted I detected evil and he was definitely a bady (probably some sly LE something). I am not the leader. There really isn't a leader in the party, we try to be democratic about the burden of leadership. The 3 who were caught were sentenced to an indefinite term of imprisonment. Whoever beat them and captured them could have just made them disappear but they obviously wanted to make it seem legal and legitimate. As for the Church of Bane's involvement we found an iron ring near to Lathander's shrine with the Black Hand's Unholy Symbol. There seems to be some unknown guild operating there as well because of some documents we found written in a magical script with an undetermined symbol. As I said, my companions were caught breaking and entering with attempted theft (by the way they did this on their own, because we had split up into 2 groups to better research the situation). Legally I am in a bind. They broke the law and punishment for theft is legitimate but the magistrate is evil and something is very fishy about what is going on. I know the proper thing to do would be to call an investigattion of the city's authorities but that would not be too subtle (there is a small temple to the Triad in a near by town where we lodged and is our base of operations and I could consult the cleric but our friends might be dying so I can't waste time) and would let them onto us right off the bat if they aren't already. My paladin needs hard evidence that the Law here is Evil, in which case I could disregard it but arresting someone for theft is a just law...my other two companions, being CG just want to sneak into the mansion of the magistrate and get to the truth but I am stuck in a real crunch. I have to respect legitimate legal authority...and at the moment it seems legitimate and just because the magistrate is evil doesn't mean he's involved...once again any advice...I don't want to sacrifice my paladinhood as I recently received a boon from Torm in the form of a holy symbol that gives my smite evil attack double damage.....advice, advice, advice...?:confused: Is your paladin the leader of the group? What have your companions been sentenced to? Do you know that the magistrate is evil, and how do you know? You say that you suspect the church of Bane, why? Their are many mitigating factors involved in alignment conflicts, and as a DM I can tell you that each DM has a different perspective of how characters should act based on their alignment. Commiting an evil act for the greater good, is evil... So then commiting a chaotic act for justice to be done, is chatoic. The other question that I would ask is, who are you doing this for. Were you hired to inspect, or are you taking action based on rumors.
Zevox 10-14-06, 12:56 PM	Being Lawful Good does not mean you have to blindly follow every law everywhere. It means you have to respect legitimate authority, but if your evidence is that this is a Banite plot, just how legimate is the authority here? If those laws are being used for corrupt purposes, then they're no longer working for the good of the cummunity, which is the defining reason for laws to be in place and obeyed to a Paladin. If theres definitive evidence of such (which your detect evil certainly seems to have given you), then its a Paladin's duty to find a way to stop the corruption of the laws there, and if theres no reasonable way to do that from within the system, then doing things the way your chaotic friends suggest is best. Being Lawful Good means you are both, which means thinking with only the lawful half here and respecting an obviously corrupt authority is not what you should be doing. Of course, if that detect evil was not on the magistrate you refer to, it becomes muckier, since its possible that not all of the authorities are corrupt here. Then again the magistrate himself need not be evil to be used as a tool by those who are. Keep in mind these are only my opinions, and may vary from your DM's. Its hardly a common thing to find two people who agree 100% on how alignments should work, after all... Zevox
Todesherr 10-14-06, 01:04 PM	I think you are right...I will have to sacrifice the Law for the Good...and take a chance...may Torm forgive me if I should err... Being Lawful Good does not mean you have to blindly follow every law everywhere. It means you have to respect legitimate authority, but if your evidence is that this is a Banite plot, just how legimate is the authority here? If those laws are being used for corrupt purposes, then they're no longer working for the good of the cummunity, which is the defining reason for laws to be in place and obeyed to a Paladin. If theres definitive evidence of such (which your detect evil certainly seems to have given you), then its a Paladin's duty to find a way to stop the corruption of the laws there, and if theres no reasonable way to do that from within the system, then doing things the way your chaotic friends suggest is best. Being Lawful Good means you are both, which means thinking with only the lawful half here and respecting an obviously corrupt authority is not what you should be doing. Of course, if that detect evil was not on the magistrate you refer to, it becomes muckier, since its possible that not all of the authorities are corrupt here. Then again the magistrate himself need not be evil to be used as a tool by those who are. Keep in mind these are only my opinions, and may vary from your DM's. Its hardly a common thing to find two people who agree 100% on how alignments should work, after all... Zevox
Ripe 10-14-06, 02:08 PM	OK, here is where you must find your answers - Torm's dogma: Salvation may be found through service. Every failure of duty diminishes Torm and every success adds to his luster. Strive to maintain law and order. Obey your masters with alert judgement and anticipation. Stand ever alert against corruption. Strike quickly and forcefully against rot in the hearts of mortals. Question unjust laws by suggesting improvement or alternatives, not additional laws. Your fourfold duties are to faith, family, masters, and all good beings of Faerun. Now the problem you face is that even if the government is corrupt, the law itself is not unjust - if you commit an act of thievery and you're caught you'll be punished. You may take issue with sentence [since it's indefinite] but that's it. I think that there is no way you may activelly help in the prison break, but you should also not hinder your remaining party members in it.
Todesherr 10-14-06, 02:14 PM	You're right...I think I may go to the Temple of the Triad to ask for advice...my CG companions can try their luck...and if it proves that there is evil and corruption going on I will rescue the captured...LG really sucks sometimes...:( OK, here is where you must find your answers - Torm's dogma: Now the problem you face is that even if the government is corrupt, the law itself is not unjust - if you commit an act of thievery and you're caught you'll be punished. You may take issue with sentence [since it's indefinite] but that's it. I think that there is no way you may activelly help in the prison break, but you should also not hinder your remaining party members in it.
Ripe 10-14-06, 02:24 PM	You're right...I think I may go to the Temple of the Triad to ask for advice...my CG companions can try their luck...and if it proves that there is evil and corruption going on I will rescue the captured...LG really sucks sometimes...:( Being LG is not such a big problem, since any other LG character could, and most likely would help rescue his companions without much problem. The fact that you're a Paladin [and a Paladin of Torm at that] is what get you into this mess.
Dark Wizard 10-14-06, 03:57 PM	You're a paladin, you know there is evil about. While you have a loyalty to your friends, there is little you can do for them now. A good course of action is to rout the evil, hold to your duty. Then you can hopefully show that their activities were just. Show that they were following the spirit of the law, since Banites possibly manipulated the actual word of the law for their own evil means. If you're really frustrated, you could fall, it opens up options for you at the cost of your characters integrity.
BrianCritchley 10-14-06, 10:09 PM	if they've been imprisoned for an indefinate period of time for tresspassing this is NOT a just law and as such should be resisted.
Todesherr 10-15-06, 12:16 AM	if they've been imprisoned for an indefinate period of time for tresspassing this is NOT a just law and as such should be resisted. That's what I am thinking...and I think the court system is in league with or at the beck and call of the Banites...just no hard evidence...I will consult the High Priest at the temple of the Triad...though being a high ranking cleric of Tyr he probably won't help me out too much there....I still have a week to make the decision...
Zevox 10-15-06, 12:26 AM	I think you are right...I will have to sacrifice the Law for the Good...and take a chance...may Torm forgive me if I should err... Now now, I didn't say sacrifice the lawful half of your alignment for the good. You need to consider both - its simply a matter of the fact that if you are certain that these laws are being used for evil, then opposing those who are misusing is a Paladin's duty (would be more so if you were a Paladin of Tyr, but as you can see even Torm has that in his dogma). The question is whether you can do this while staying within the existing system of laws - if things have been manipulated so thoroughly by the Banites that this is impossible or so difficult as to beyond any reasonable chance of succeeding, it becomes necessary to work outside of it, and doing so should in no way make you less lawful good. It simply isn't always possible to work for law and order or good while constantly staying within an existing system, no matter what your alignment. Just choosing to work against a corrupt system by defying it when there is no other alternative does not make your actions or you chaotic, particularly when the end result of the actions is to restore truly just law to the area. Zevox
Todesherr 10-15-06, 01:40 AM	That is well argued...clearly something is amiss and my CG companions will need my swordarm... Now now, I didn't say sacrifice the lawful half of your alignment for the good. You need to consider both - its simply a matter of the fact that if you are certain that these laws are being used for evil, then opposing those who are misusing is a Paladin's duty (would be more so if you were a Paladin of Tyr, but as you can see even Torm has that in his dogma). The question is whether you can do this while staying within the existing system of laws - if things have been manipulated so thoroughly by the Banites that this is impossible or so difficult as to beyond any reasonable chance of succeeding, it becomes necessary to work outside of it, and doing so should in no way make you less lawful good. It simply isn't always possible to work for law and order or good while constantly staying within an existing system, no matter what your alignment. Just choosing to work against a corrupt system by defying it when there is no other alternative does not make your actions or you chaotic, particularly when the end result of the actions is to restore truly just law to the area. Zevox
Diffan 10-15-06, 07:57 AM	I've played a paladin for a long time now and I say use the excuse that their evil and perverting all that is holy and just as well as lawful. You cant hold true to laws that might have been enforced by unjust/evil people. You shouldn't be happy with their lawlessness, but neither should the penalty for breaking an entering with an attempt of theft be all that long. If the trial was done lawfully, then wait out the prison sentence and in the meantime look for additional clues to help you appeal the case. If you dont want to do that, just kick in the magistrate's door and smite him(if he's evil), lol, and say it was in the name of good and that the laws were unjust. Then if that would go against you DM, you could always atone for the sin at the temple of the triad. ________________________________________ _________________________ -Light laughter and sweet water.
Todesherr 10-15-06, 08:32 AM	I never saw the trial, just examined the law books.... I've played a paladin for a long time now and I say use the excuse that their evil and perverting all that is holy and just as well as lawful. You cant hold true to laws that might have been enforced by unjust/evil people. You shouldn't be happy with their lawlessness, but neither should the penalty for breaking an entering with an attempt of theft be all that long. If the trial was done lawfully, then wait out the prison sentence and in the meantime look for additional clues to help you appeal the case. If you dont want to do that, just kick in the magistrate's door and smite him(if he's evil), lol, and say it was in the name of good and that the laws were unjust. Then if that would go against you DM, you could always atone for the sin at the temple of the triad. ________________________________________ _________________________ -Light laughter and sweet water.
Ripe 10-15-06, 02:02 PM	if they've been imprisoned for an indefinate period of time for tresspassing this is NOT a just law and as such should be resisted. That's what I am thinking...and I think the court system is in league with or at the beck and call of the Banites...just no hard evidence...I will consult the High Priest at the temple of the Triad...though being a high ranking cleric of Tyr he probably won't help me out too much there....I still have a week to make the decision... No, that law is CRUEL, but it's not necessarilly unjust. That law would be unjust if it was used only against PC's, but since you stated that PC's were tried by allready established law that is not the case here since all the thiefs in that community face indefinite imprisonment if they're cought. And their punisment could be much, much more severe than just imprisonment. Do I need to remind you that during Earth Middle Ages thiefs would get their hand [or hands] cut off? Or that in some cases they were hanged [or worse]? If you haven't allready, you should read Victor Hugo's Les Miserables [because it's good read, not just because of this discussion] to see how harsh and cruel laws could be. Main character got sentenced to 19 years in prison for stealing a loaf of bread to feed his starving family. And that happen in 19th century France, not in some Middle Age kingdom.
Another Gnome 10-15-06, 03:58 PM	Break your buddies out of the prison first, worry about atonement later. And when people in the way object to the treatment, tell them to take their complaints to your boss Torm.
Ripe 10-15-06, 04:49 PM	Break your buddies out of the prison first, worry about atonement later. And when people in the way object to the treatment, tell them to take their complaints to your boss Torm. As a DM I'd not allow atonement in he choose to free his buddies from prison. He's a Paladin of Torm ffs. And Torm require him to do his duty and maintain law and order. How is he maintaining law and order if he's breaking convicted criminals out of prison?????
Another Gnome 10-15-06, 05:51 PM	How is he maintaining law and order if he's breaking convicted criminals out of prison????? Oh, you know, by doing his job for starters: Every failure of duty diminishes Torm and every success adds to his luster. Strive to maintain law and order. Obey your masters with alert judgment and anticipation. Stand ever alert against corruption. Strike quickly and forcefully against rot in the hearts of mortals. Bring painful, quick death to traitors. Question unjust laws by suggesting improvement or alternatives, not additional laws. Your fourfold duties are to faith, family, masters, and all good beings of Faerūn. Considering how a Tormite is expected to strike against even his own superiors if there is evidence of corruption, I actually doubt the paladin would even need to atone in this particular case. Or, as a famous ranger once put it: "Evil, meet my sword! SWORD, MEET EVIL!" :fight!:
Auburn 10-15-06, 06:57 PM	The prison's got to have some gate guards or something who can talk to passersby or maybe even someone higher up who you can get an audience with. Detect Evil on every prison employee you can after all somethign evil is going on in there. When someone comes up evil talk to them after they leave the prison to get the information necessary to justify going into the prison with force. At no point are you actively trying to break your teammates out until you actually get information to legitimize it.
Cthulhu 10-15-06, 08:38 PM	Todesherr, I have to say that from everything I have read your doing a very admirable job of playing your paladin. You haven't just shrugged your shoulders at the moral problem, kicked down the cell door and freed your companions and damn the consequences like a lot of paladin players might do. Your taking the time to test the situation and find morally correct alternatives. Thats commendable and superb roleplaying. And if you truly understand what playing a paladin is all about its also half the fun!
Cthulhu 10-15-06, 08:40 PM	Break your buddies out of the prison first, worry about atonement later. And when people in the way object to the treatment, tell them to take their complaints to your boss Torm. And if your paladin does screw up on this he should be ready and willing to atone in whatever fashion his church and the law deem needed. Being a paladin is a tough life and is rarely forgiving of mistakes. But you have to be willing to be mistaken if your going to be a paladin. Catch-22.
Alac Luin 10-15-06, 09:33 PM	And if your paladin does screw up on this he should be ready and willing to atone in whatever fashion his church and the law deem needed. Being a paladin is a tough life and is rarely forgiving of mistakes. But you have to be willing to be mistaken if your going to be a paladin. Catch-22. Another Gnome does have a point. If the law and lawmakers are unjust, the paladin does have a responsibility to deity and friends first. A look at the situation, the paladin is freeing his friends from the clutches of evil they are fighting. If he is mistaken, needing atonement is always a chance any religious character risks. Now, I would suggest that the paladin goes about the rescue in a proper manner. Subduing the guards instead of slaying, possibly after trying diplomacy. "Good sir, I respect your honor in upholding your vow to protect the citizens of your city by keeping the criminals locked away. I implore to that spirit of that vow that those men we come to free are not the true criminals, but the church of Bane that we suspect have taken over elements of the city....."
Cthulhu 10-15-06, 10:08 PM	never mind.
Ripe 10-16-06, 03:36 AM	Oh, you know, by doing his job for starters: Considering how a Tormite is expected to strike against even his own superiors if there is evidence of corruption, I actually doubt the paladin would even need to atone in this particular case. Or, as a famous ranger once put it: "Evil, meet my sword! SWORD, MEET EVIL!" :fight!: Yes, he would be in violation of his oath because even if government is corrupt and evil, the law that put his friens in prison is not! And that law is also not unjust. So he's Paladin must maintain law and order. Or do you consider a law that put thiefs in prison evil and unjust?
Ripe 10-16-06, 03:43 AM	Another Gnome does have a point. If the law and lawmakers are unjust, the paladin does have a responsibility to deity and friends first. The problem is that law is not unjust. A look at the situation, the paladin is freeing his friends from the clutches of evil they are fighting. If he is mistaken, needing atonement is always a chance any religious character risks. His friends were captured while breaking & entering and commiting theft. They were tried by EXISTING laws and were foung guilty and received their (un)just sentence. Freeing them mean breaking the law, his oath as Paladin of Torm and is an evil act. And like I said, as a DM I'd never allow a paladin who knowingly violate his oath or commit evil act get away with it a simple atonement. Now, I would suggest that the paladin goes about the rescue in a proper manner. Subduing the guards instead of slaying, possibly after trying diplomacy. "Good sir, I respect your honor in upholding your vow to protect the citizens of your city by keeping the criminals locked away. I implore to that spirit of that vow that those men we come to free are not the true criminals, but the church of Bane that we suspect have taken over elements of the city....." That diplomacy aproach is as far as he could go.
Ripe 10-16-06, 03:51 AM	On another note... Are you sure that atempt to rescue your friends from prison is a good idea? Your DM might hate me because of this, but consider this: Those 3 PC's were captured while breaking and entering with attempted theft of local bad guy [who you suspect have ties with Bane]. Now why haven't those Banites simply killed your friends and get it over with? Why did they bother putting them to trial and sentencing them to prison? What if they did it in order to see who will take interest in their destiny and try to rescue them so they could easily capture their companions without wasting too many resources. In short, you may be walking into an elaborate trap. [Or in other words, your DM didn't wish to force those 3 players to roll new characters, he wished to force all of you to do that]
Cthulhu 10-16-06, 04:21 AM	Not simply killing the thieves is a brilliant move on the part of the Banites. By simply delivering the thieves to the courts to handle you don't confirm or deny any suspicians the PCs have. Since the PCs were looking for information its obvious they have none...at least nothing solid enough to expose the Banites. So why dirty your own hands when you don't have to? By giving the PCs up to the court system the Banites have neutralized the rest of the PCs (in particular the paladin) who are more concerned about laws than they are. I mean look at Todesher's predicament. If the PCs try anything desperate (like trying to rescue the thieves from prison) they end up looking like hte bad guys in all this. Afterall they just staged a prison break and freed convicted felons at sword point! The PCs will have washed themselves out of any chance of proving the Banites are dirty or that anyone will listen to them even if they do gain evidence. You obviously can't trust them. Ha! By simply letting justice take its course the Banites have defanged the PCs! They don't NEED to set up an overly elaborate trap!
Todesherr 10-16-06, 10:07 AM	Thanks for all the good tips and points of view. I believe strongly in being true to alignment...even though in reality I am very chaotic if I am a paladin I have to respect the law. Yes, it could be an eloborate set up. I think the Banites are using the local court system to legitamise their foul plots and at the end of the day I don't know what my other 3 companions are up too...(the DM split us up and we are playing in seperate groups for the time being). It really is a tough decision and there are a million ways to interprate it. Torm's dogma also states that I have a duty to my friends. I have asked to speak to my friends from behind bars but they would not let me. There is another thing to consider. Even if we were to break in or assault the prison who knows what type of man or monsterpower they have down there or how many. I have talked to my CG companion with the harper connection and he will try to make contact with the Harpers to get more info. By this up and coming weekend I will have had to have made a decision for better of worse...at the moment though I know I have a duty to my friends; for family, faithful, friends and all good beings in Faerun!:fight!:
ShadezofDis 10-16-06, 02:11 PM	You could also try finding the records of the trial (though they would be very recent) or talk to some of the court system people. Look for either of those to try and figure out if it was a sham of a trial (of course you'd have to look at the laws regarding trials) Basically, if the trial wasn't held correctly then the verdict is suspect. Since your paladin didn't see the break in, the apprehension or the trial then he doesn't even know that his buddies actually did break in. For all he knows they were jumped in an alley. Anyhow, the speed of the trial and the duration of the sentence (which could also stand some scrutiny, is that a typical sentence for theft?) lend weight to the presence of corruption in the gov't (a LE magistrate doesn't really count towards this, just because the magistrate is evil doesn't mean he isn't a lawful magistrate, just means he's a jerk *g*) Further, speak with the people at the Triad temple, they should have better knowledge of the standing of the law in town (ie. has it been changing a lot recently? Does this trial follow the precident of past trials in the town? Do they know the magistrates? Has there been a large turnover in the magistrates/lords/whatever? Do they have any contacts in the courts that could help you clear up the questions about the trial?) If your pressed for time you can send a message to the temple (find yourself a street rat and send a letter, they should respond since your a paladin of torm) Also, see if you can't visit them in the prison and if you cannot see if there is a law that states if you can visit, if there is a law that states you can but the guards don't let you then I'd say that's something to encourage a break in, but not nessicarily a rescue. Tough situation though, good luck
Alac Luin 10-16-06, 05:14 PM	The problem is that law is not unjust. His friends were captured while breaking & entering and commiting theft. They were tried by EXISTING laws and were foung guilty and received their (un)just sentence. Freeing them mean breaking the law, his oath as Paladin of Torm and is an evil act. And like I said, as a DM I'd never allow a paladin who knowingly violate his oath or commit evil act get away with it a simple atonement. That diplomacy aproach is as far as he could go. The law itself is not unjust, the thing is the punishment just may be. If the incarceration is way out of line from what is the typical punishment for such a crime (which sounds like the case) then he has a case. By not trying to free his friends he risks breaking his vows, specifically under the "Dept of Dereliction", as his companions are a resource to be used in the fight against Bane.
Ripe 10-16-06, 05:25 PM	The law itself is not unjust, the thing is the punishment just may be. If the incarceration is way out of line from what is the typical punishment for such a crime (which sounds like the case) then he has a case. I'm not sure that sentence was unjust. From today's, 21st century point of wiev it most certainly is, but from 13-15th century point of wiev it might actually be rather mild. Remember, thieves back then could expect to have their hands cut off or were simply hanged [or killed in some even more gruesome way, such as boiling in oil]. But like you said, he must compare sentence given to PC's with sentence given to others in simmilar circumstances. By not trying to free his friends he risks breaking his vows, specifically under the "Dept of Dereliction", as his companions are a resource to be used in the fight against Bane. That part is questionable for reasons Cthulhu listed. They are assets in fight against Bane, but at the moment in that community they are considered criminals and thieves. Which could mean that people of that community might ignore any evidence provided by them [and especially if they're freed from prison with use of violance].
Alac Luin 10-16-06, 05:26 PM	never mind. I got what you posted through the e-mail notification. Honestly, I never said that story would or should work. I'm just saying that it should be attempted. EDIT: Before any violent action is taken agienst a guard, if they insidt on this course of action. I agree strongly with the sentiment I believe you had when you wrote that. (strongly, but not completely, coming from a paladin of Torm, it may mean something, or not).
Alac Luin 10-16-06, 05:50 PM	I'm not sure that sentence was unjust. From today's, 21st century point of wiev it most certainly is, but from 13-15th century point of wiev it might actually be rather mild. Remember, thieves back then could expect to have their hands cut off or were simply hanged [or killed in some even more gruesome way, such as boiling in oil]. But like you said, he must compare sentence given to PC's with sentence given to others in simmilar circumstances. Understood, but I was alluding to what is the typical punishment for that city. That can be reasonably easy to find out. That part is questionable for reasons Cthulhu listed. They are assets in fight against Bane, but at the moment in that community they are considered criminals and thieves. Which could mean that people of that community might ignore any evidence provided by them [and especially if they're freed from prison with use of violance]. Thats why I suggested that they use non lethal measures during the break out attempt, if they do go for it. And if they are able to free their friends and eliminate the Baneite presence, who cares if the population looks down on them? The people are better off, the PC's (especially the paladin), know they did the right thing. The undieing gratitude of the people should not be the expected reward (though can be nice if you have it. For the record- I have little experience playing paladins myself. I also have almost no experience DMing paladins (thankfully;) ). I want to be clear before someone goes solely by my suggestions, or puts to much weight in my arguments. And to further clarify, I'm not trying to be argumentative, just having a discussion on something I would like to get a better grasp of myself. I'm also not convinced a jail break is the "best" course of action.
Another Gnome 10-17-06, 03:27 AM	Just to give a couple of thing to consider when it comes to paladins and laws: Paladins are not expected to know the local laws inside out, and I daresay that most paladins don't actually have a clue about the letter of the law, especially in a foreign country. Matter of factly, paladins don't even have the relevant Knowledge skill (local) as a class skill. Paladins are not police officers bound by strict rules and regulations. If a lawyer were to present to the court that condemning evidence should be dismissed because a paladin obtained it through illegal search, the proper course of action is to use the smite lawyer ability.
Ripe 10-17-06, 04:24 AM	Just to give a couple of thing to consider when it comes to paladins and laws: Paladins are not expected to know the local laws inside out, and I daresay that most paladins don't actually have a clue about the letter of the law, especially in a foreign country. Matter of factly, paladins don't even have the relevant Knowledge skill (local) as a class skill. That is true, but Todesherr in one of his post said that he's paladin rewieved the law books so he did get familiar with local law. Or at least it's basics. And besides, breaking & entering and theft are crimes in every law. Paladins are not police officers bound by strict rules and regulations. If a lawyer were to present to the court that condemning evidence should be dismissed because a paladin obtained it through illegal search, the proper course of action is to use the smite lawyer ability. Actually, they are bound by strict rules. In fact, rules that bound paladins are even stricter than ones bounding police officers in real world. Or do you forget that paladin who willfully commit evil or chaotic act immediatelly loose all paladin ability?
Cthulhu 10-17-06, 05:22 AM	Actually, they are bound by strict rules. In fact, rules that bound paladins are even stricter than ones bounding police officers in real world. Or do you forget that paladin who willfully commit evil or chaotic act immediatelly loose all paladin ability? But than again a paladin can go much further in pursuing his missions than a police officer ever could (he is in fact expected too). So while the paladin's code is stricter in some ways in others they actually have a much freer hand. Torm's church would probably forgive actions that a legal authroity might frown upon if its in pursuit of things like a banite plot. Not that thismeans Torm's church will shield a paladin from the consequences of his actions if he is caught. The Law is still the Law.
Another Gnome 10-17-06, 05:27 AM	That is true, but Todesherr in one of his post said that he's paladin rewieved the law books so he did get familiar with local law. Or at least it's basics. And besides, breaking & entering and theft are crimes in every law. Well, since the original topic was more or less concluded, I'm just adding fuel for fire on a general level to keep the discussion going for my part. As for breaking and entering, a paladin has no reason to consider it as such if the purpose is to secure evidence against someone suspected of corruption or plain old evil. Or do you forget that paladin who willfully commit evil or chaotic act immediatelly loose all paladin ability? There's nothing inherently evil about breaking your friends out of prison, and chaotic acts do not affect a paladin unless and until they warrant an alignment shift.
Yakostovian 10-17-06, 08:05 AM	The problem is that law is not unjust. His friends were captured while breaking & entering and commiting theft. They were tried by EXISTING laws and were foung guilty and received their (un)just sentence. Freeing them mean breaking the law, his oath as Paladin of Torm and is an evil act. And like I said, as a DM I'd never allow a paladin who knowingly violate his oath or commit evil act get away with it a simple atonement. That diplomacy aproach is as far as he could go. Whereas the law may not be unjust, the punishment is. Especially if the PC's do enough research to determine what the punishments in the area are for similar crimes, how they are divided after conviction, and what the possibility of parole/reform/work details are. (I am applying a more modern mentality on the penal system) The fact of the matter is, what is acceptable in Torm's eyes? (In this case, the DM that is interpreting the Oath, and Torm's Dogma) I would interperet that the best course of action that the paladin to take is that the paladin demand a retrial by whatever method is neccesary. (And yes, retrials existed way back then, but they were extremely rare, and rarely afforded to anyone that did not hold a prestigous position.) So, this is what I would do in the same position as the player of the Paladin. Demand a retrial. If that fails, call into question the legitimacy of the court (by the most lawful method available.) If that fails, and an attempt is made to throw the paladin in prison, depending on the laws, he should have every right to attempt to evade capture due to the fact that being punished for speaking out against an established system IS in fact an unjust law. Problem with my plan is that there are too many assumptions made on my part. As player plan 2: Watch the evil individual like a bloody hawk. Use some kind of spying magic if you have to. (unless that is also against the law) Were I the DM, I would expect the Paladin to try to work within the system as much as possible, and attempt to catch one of these individuals in commiting an evil deed. In the above scenario, I would think that the best course of action for the DM is tie the paladin's hands as he has done. NOTE: If the DM in question hates paladins (as I know some do) he may be unjustly targeting your character, and then it doesn't matter what you do, he will punish your character through action or inaction. Though, from your statements it sounds more like the DM is just trying to trap you in a logic/ethics puzzle.
Todesherr 10-17-06, 09:45 AM	Na, he doesn't hate Paladins...I have been true to my code and Torm (the DM) has rewarded me...I have that cool holy symbol that gives my smite attack double damage...which I received in a dream from Torm and upon waking up it was around my neck... Whereas the law may not be unjust, the punishment is. Especially if the PC's do enough research to determine what the punishments in the area are for similar crimes, how they are divided after conviction, and what the possibility of parole/reform/work details are. (I am applying a more modern mentality on the penal system) The fact of the matter is, what is acceptable in Torm's eyes? (In this case, the DM that is interpreting the Oath, and Torm's Dogma) I would interperet that the best course of action that the paladin to take is that the paladin demand a retrial by whatever method is neccesary. (And yes, retrials existed way back then, but they were extremely rare, and rarely afforded to anyone that did not hold a prestigous position.) So, this is what I would do in the same position as the player of the Paladin. Demand a retrial. If that fails, call into question the legitimacy of the court (by the most lawful method available.) If that fails, and an attempt is made to throw the paladin in prison, depending on the laws, he should have every right to attempt to evade capture due to the fact that being punished for speaking out against an established system IS in fact an unjust law. Problem with my plan is that there are too many assumptions made on my part. As player plan 2: Watch the evil individual like a bloody hawk. Use some kind of spying magic if you have to. (unless that is also against the law) Were I the DM, I would expect the Paladin to try to work within the system as much as possible, and attempt to catch one of these individuals in commiting an evil deed. In the above scenario, I would think that the best course of action for the DM is tie the paladin's hands as he has done. NOTE: If the DM in question hates paladins (as I know some do) he may be unjustly targeting your character, and then it doesn't matter what you do, he will punish your character through action or inaction. Though, from your statements it sounds more like the DM is just trying to trap you in a logic/ethics puzzle.
Alac Luin 10-17-06, 04:42 PM	Since some people are "metagame" thinking, I'm going to to the same thing. Some speculate that the DM has set this up to be a trap for the paladin and/or the rest of the party. The exact opposite may be true. The DM may expect the three to do a jail break. The two "sneaky" PCs are free (rogue/bard and ranger), and it just happens that the paladin is stuck in this moral dilemma in the process. So this should only be looked at from an in game perspective. Personally, I would like to see how this plays out.
Zevox 10-17-06, 10:06 PM	Or do you forget that paladin who willfully commit evil or chaotic act immediatelly loose all paladin ability? Correction - a Paladin immediately loses all class abilities if they ever willingly commit an evil act. Chaotic acts are not covered in that clause at all - only becoming chaotic enough to warrant an alignment shift will cause a good aligned Paladin to lose thier powers and status. Zevox
Ripe 10-18-06, 04:49 AM	Correction - a Paladin immediately loses all class abilities if they ever willingly commit an evil act. Chaotic acts are not covered in that clause at all - only becoming chaotic enough to warrant an alignment shift will cause a good aligned Paladin to lose thier powers and status. Zevox Which is very, very wierd. I mean, Paladins should be epitomes of BOTH law and good. So if willingly commiting an Evil act causes paladin to lose his class abilities why doesn't willingly commiting Chaotic act effect him in the same way?
Alediran 10-18-06, 09:50 AM	Which is very, very wierd. I mean, Paladins should be epitomes of BOTH law and good. So if willingly commiting an Evil act causes paladin to lose his class abilities why doesn't willingly commiting Chaotic act effect him in the same way? I think it's because law and chaos are even more subjective and have greater grey areas that good and evil.
ShadezofDis 10-18-06, 12:08 PM	Which is very, very wierd. I mean, Paladins should be epitomes of BOTH law and good. So if willingly commiting an Evil act causes paladin to lose his class abilities why doesn't willingly commiting Chaotic act effect him in the same way? Paladins are holy warriors bound by holy law (ie. dogma), not by secular authority. Defying a magistrate or breaking a (secular) law doesn't really matter to a paladin (in so far as they hold to the dogma). Willingly breaking the law of dogma, IMO, would cause a paladin to lose his class abilities. Torm's dogma doesn't make a distinction about following ANY specific law of an area, it says "Strive to maintain law and order" but it does not say "Strive to maintain every law mindlessly" Locking people away for good, with a trial that can be completed before the paladin even gets word his friends have been captured, is not good for maintaining order. Basically, the way I read it, Torm's paladins are allowed to break any specific secular law in the pursuit of greater law and order (ie. Torm would not mind if you freed you friends, whom you have a duty to protect by the by, so long as you were sure the laws have been corrupted by the influence of Banites <or anyone else for that matter>. Torm actually has quite a hate on for Bane and is focused on destroying him and his church.) What do I mean by "greater law and order"? What every paladin of Torm would say; The greater law and order is the law and order of Torm. In order to have greater law and order one must first have an uncorrupted leader, then one must follow the dictates of this leader as long as this leader remains uncorrupt and works for the greater good. Arg, I don't think I'm being particularly clear with my writing. I'm gonna take a break and come back to this with a fresher head :) Ps. First character I played was a paladin, he died real quick. The second character I played was also a paladin, he didn't die and I played him for several years. He was a paladin of Tyr though and much more versed in law and law theory than your typical Tormite so he'd have had an easier time finding discrepencies in the laws and such.
Njord 10-18-06, 12:53 PM	I agree with Dis. It becomes a matter of the letter verses the spirit of the law. Greater law and order will prevail if your friends are out of jail and Bane will succeed if you do not find a way to get them out. You could think of it like the damsel in distress. She is locked up because she opposes the bad guy. The bad guy has every right to lock her up in his tower because it is his tower. What self respecting paladin would not oppose the "right and lawful" ruler of said tower. I know this is over simplifying but it might make a precident for this situation. An additional option might be: Finding a magistrate that will be sympathetic to your cause or is known to oppose the magistrate who is evil and push for a retrial. You get some local backing that might make it easier to lead a coup on the Banites
The Heretic 10-18-06, 05:09 PM	I'm an FR DM and I think that Paladins of Torm getting tripped up on legal intricacies is a little silly. Of the three deities in the Triad, I would consider Torm the most likely to eschew bad laws in the pursuit of good. Moreso than Tyr, he is a warrior's god, a champion. Note that Ed has commented that Torm is Alusair Obarskyr's patron, and that she is on good standing with him (even though she is CG). Were I in your shoes, here's how I would look at it: 1) The authorities are very obviously doing something evil (your headache), and may or may not be preparing a vile ritual. 2) During the course of their investigation of this evil, your less lawfully inclined companions violated a law, and are now imprisoned by the evil authorities. I could easilly make the leap from here that the (seemingly) evil authorities are perverting the law to hide their deeds. (Has no one asked why a trespassing and robbery case got tried and sentenced in under 24 hours?) It is essential that you at least communicate with your companions to learn what they have discovered, as the information that they have may enable you to better pursue your duty. If they discovered evidence of the evil nature of the authorities, then they may have the opportunity to redeem themselves by quelling said evil.
Yakostovian 10-18-06, 10:52 PM	Ended up double posting, and I do not know how to delete a post. Help would be appreciated.
Yakostovian 10-18-06, 10:53 PM	You could think of it like the damsel in distress. She is locked up because she opposes the bad guy. The bad guy has every right to lock her up in his tower because it is his tower. In order for the "bad guy" to have every right to lock this damsel up, she had to have done something wrong. Opposing was a little vague here. Unless you count dissention as unlawful, he has no right to lock her up in that circumstance. Also, he has no right to lock someone up in a society that people are not permitted to be vigilantes. The law is enforced by the guards, police, etc. By your vague example above, if someone opposes me, I have every right to lock them in my basement. The current law of the area I am in would charge me with kidnapping and holding someone against their will. Probably unlawful confinement/imprisonment (they are seperate charges)
Njord 10-18-06, 11:23 PM	Ok so that was pretty vague. To sum it up...Your friends are wrongfully imprisoned and the bad guys are getting away with it. What would a paladin do...rescue them and save the day reguardless of how they got there. I have never played a Paladin so it is easy for me to say that though. By oppose I meant get in the way of the "evil" goal they had in mind...but yeah it was a bad example...go with what the Heretic and Dis said
Amakudari 10-19-06, 05:10 AM	Have you thought about using the paladin as a distraction? Get him loudly questioning the descisions of the magistrate, questioning the town guards as to their views of the trial/punishment, etc. Hopefully this will draw the attention of the bad guys, and he can call the magistrate to court (or the middle of the town square with lots of witnesses) to argue for a retrial. Of course while the magistrate is out, his friends will (*cough*unknown to the paladin*cough* ) be searching the magistrates house for incriminating evidence which can then be used to get to the real problems.
Yakostovian 10-19-06, 08:21 AM	Have you thought about using the paladin as a distraction? Get him loudly questioning the descisions of the magistrate, questioning the town guards as to their views of the trial/punishment, etc. Hopefully this will draw the attention of the bad guys, and he can call the magistrate to court (or the middle of the town square with lots of witnesses) to argue for a retrial. Of course while the magistrate is out, his friends will (*cough*unknown to the paladin*cough* ) be searching the magistrates house for incriminating evidence which can then be used to get to the real problems. With as little information we have on the whole situation, this sounds like the best course of action. Oh, don't forget hirelings.
ShadezofDis 10-19-06, 10:02 AM	Well, since no one has thought of this angle quite yet. You're paladin seems to fear for his companions lives. This is a situation that calls for erring on the side of preserving their lives (because, while you can bring them back to life it's a pain in the rear) It seems to me that your paladin can take this course with a relatively clear concious; Break into prison and make sure your friends lives are in danger. (note: when breaking into prison use nonlethal methods, as was said earlier, hopefully you can even avoid the guards) Free your friends and continue your investigations. When you've concluded your investigations you can then have a retrial for your friends breaking and entering and have a trial for your prison break (perhaps presided over by one of the priests from the temple of the triad down the road). While you were working towards the greater good it is still the best course to have the trials when things are no longer a life and death matter. Now, as for this: In order for the "bad guy" to have every right to lock this damsel up, she had to have done something wrong. Opposing was a little vague here. Unless you count dissention as unlawful, he has no right to lock her up in that circumstance. Also, he has no right to lock someone up in a society that people are not permitted to be vigilantes. The law is enforced by the guards, police, etc. Think Sheriff of Nottingham here. Think Zhentil Keep. Think Thay. In all of these the persons in power had the law on their side and they would definitely be opposed by a paladin and I find it very likely that a paladin would release a freedom fighter from these areas even though it is explicitly against the law. I think a large part of the problem is figuring out exactly what "legitimate authority" is. If legitimate authority can come from a monarchy (Cormyr ftw!) then what happens when the monarch is LE? What if the monarch is LE and runs the country so efficiently that the people want the monarch to stay? What if the monarch is LG but so feeble in his rule that he ends up hurting his nation? I mean really, this is a pretty complex question and we haven't even gotten beyond some simple questions on monarchy. What happens when we apply this to a republic (two LE senators, a NG senator and a LN senator have a meeting. . .) I'm gonna think on this, perhaps even make a new thread, either way, I'll be back :)
Mirtek 10-20-06, 05:35 PM	You might want to read Thornhold. It had a paladin chasing a boy through Waterdeep, who was very important for his order. The paladin simply wanted to bring the boy to their headquarter without harm (where the boy would be much better off than living on the streets anyway). But the boy didin't trust him and ran away. Unfortunately for the paladin the city watch saw the paladin running after the fleeing boy and immediately stopped and arested him. The paladin didn't resist them and went to prison because thinking about the situation he came to the conclusion that he had indeed broken the laws of Waterdeep and the watch was right to arrest him. And he did it despite being close to reach an important goal of his order, which was currently in a struggle with a sect of Cyrcists. On the other hand you might not want to take Thornhold as a role model, because the paladins also committed some grossly evil acts that should have caused them to lose their status faster than they could scream "SMITE". The author wanted to show were too much fanatism could lead to, but unfortunately forgot that FR paladins are indeed controlled and stripped of their status by their deity, unlike RL crusaders that could committ as many such a atrocities and get away with it. About your current dilema: The problem is that while the law in this case worked in favor of the Banites, that doesn't have to mean that the judges and lawyers were Banites. They could be LG/LN/N people just doing their jobs. Fair laws apply to all. A law "you are not allowed to steal, unless the people you steal from are evil" would be an unjust law and a paladin would actually be forced to try to change such a law (by lawful means). A paladin going through an average city with detect evil would find evil left and right, but he couldn't do anything to 99% of these evil people. The creedy merchant who sells bad tasting food to the poor starving people for usury prices might have a NE heart black as midnight, but a paladin couldn't just smite him because he's evil. As sad as paladin might be, these people have every right to be evil, as long as they don't committ evil acts that "cross the line", it's all "OK". So your friends were condemned through a just and lawful trial, and currently they're simply out of your reach. You might try to get a revision of their case, but you shouldn't break them out. The greater law and order is the law and order of Torm. With this stance the church of Torm could expect to be thrown out of most countries and realms. The local authorities usually don't like some church openly stating that their law is the only law that truly counts and the local authorities have no authority at all. It's not unheard of for even even lawful and good authorities to be at odds with LG churches. In Cormyr the evil church of Malar is officially allowed and has a representative counceling the king along with representatives of the churches of Torm and Tyr. In some other area a church of Tyr is build on the opposite street from a church of Mask (crawling with evil priests and worshippers) yet can't do anything to them since Mask's faith is officially allowed there and they're not breaking laws (of course they do and if caught in the act or with evidence things can be done against certain members, but the church as a whole is yet legal). Think Sheriff of Nottingham here. Think Zhentil Keep. Think Thay. In all of these the persons in power had the law on their side and they would definitely be opposed by a paladin and I find it very likely that a paladin would release a freedom fighter from these areas even though it is explicitly against the law. Well, these all are evil authorities. But the authorities who judged his friends might be neutral or even good and unrelated to the banites. Laws protect evil people just as much as good people. If the evil banites captured the thieves in their realty and then simply delivered them to the unassociated local authorities to judge them, it was a fair and just trial and the authorities are not evil and not involved in the evil plot of the banites.
BrennonGoldeye 10-27-06, 07:41 AM	Freeing them mean breaking the law, his oath as Paladin of Torm and is an evil act. This is a great thread guys. Well thought out points and counterpoints. Todesherr, your PC's angst about the current situation has Torm smiling upon you. Now you get what it is like to try and be Him. My only entry so far is that while breaking the law is greatly detrimental to the paladin, it is in no way an evil act. It's an unethical one. Paladins can permanently lose their powers by willingly commiting any evil act. They have to grossly violate their code of conduct to recieve the same punishment. They can freely associate with Chaotic folk, but not with Evil, even Lawful Evil. I say help with the legal defense and look for a reason to overturn their conviction. Be ready to come out swinging when the Evil is exposed. And thank Lord Torm for allowing you to be closer to Him by these trials.:cip:
Todesherr 10-27-06, 11:01 AM	This is a great thread guys. Well thought out points and counterpoints. Alac, your PC's angst about the current situation has Torm smiling upon you. Now you get what it is like to try and be Him. My only entry so far is that while breaking the law is greatly detrimental to the paladin, it is in no way an evil act. It's an unethical one. Paladins can permanently lose their powers by willingly commiting any evil act. They have to grossly violate their code of conduct to recieve the same punishment. They can freely associate with Chaotic folk, but not with Evil, even Lawful Evil. I say help with the legal defense and look for a reason to overturn their conviction. Be ready to come out swinging when the Evil is exposed. And thank Lord Torm for allowing you to be closer to Him by these trials.:cip: The update thread tells the tell of what happened...
ShadezofDis 10-27-06, 12:01 PM	A paladin going through an average city with detect evil would find evil left and right, but he couldn't do anything to 99% of these evil people. The creedy merchant who sells bad tasting food to the poor starving people for usury prices might have a NE heart black as midnight, but a paladin couldn't just smite him because he's evil. As sad as paladin might be, these people have every right to be evil, as long as they don't committ evil acts that "cross the line", it's all "OK". I'll have to disagree with you on this, I don't think an average city is full of evil. The greedy merchant who sells bad food to the poor may indeed be evil, but he doesn't have to be, he could very well be LN, N or CN (it's tough to make a case for him being good, but just because he's maximizing profit doesn't mean he's evil) So your friends were condemned through a just and lawful trial, and currently they're simply out of your reach. You might try to get a revision of their case, but you shouldn't break them out. There is no justification to assume that the trial was just and lawful. Just and lawful trials don't happen overnight and condem the "guilty" for life with no means to defend their case. The greater law and order is the law and order of Torm. With this stance the church of Torm could expect to be thrown out of most countries and realms. The local authorities usually don't like some church openly stating that their law is the only law that truly counts and the local authorities have no authority at all. It's not unheard of for even even lawful and good authorities to be at odds with LG churches. Of course that's the church of Torm's stance, they actively work towards making Torm's law the secular law wherever they are (much like worshipers of Tyr try to do, much like worshipers of Bane try to do, much like worshipers of every god do) These actions aren't a crusade, they are the most reasonable way the worshipers feel they can accomplish these goals. I'm not sure I'm making this clear really, basically look at most real world churches, they believe that their god's laws are just and right and they try to get the secular laws to reflect thier laws. They don't do this by force (mostly, sometimes they do and I'm sure that Torm's followers would where they can get away with it, within reason), they do this by trying to change the social norms, the secular laws through legal means, etc. In Cormyr the evil church of Malar is officially allowed and has a representative counceling the king along with representatives of the churches of Torm and Tyr. In some other area a church of Tyr is build on the opposite street from a church of Mask (crawling with evil priests and worshippers) yet can't do anything to them since Mask's faith is officially allowed there and they're not breaking laws (of course they do and if caught in the act or with evidence things can be done against certain members, but the church as a whole is yet legal). Yep, that's called reality (well, fantasy in this case *g*). While Tyr's church would LOVE to convert (and if not convert, destroy) Mask's church they cannot because Mask's church is protected by powers that can destroy Tyr's church (at least in the area). It's a balancing act, trying to promote the greater good (which is the church's particular god's greater good) vs the church's survival. Well, these all are evil authorities. But the authorities who judged his friends might be neutral or even good and unrelated to the banites. Laws protect evil people just as much as good people. Again, at the time of my writing I suspected they weren't legitimate authorities following the law. There was an update on the situation just yesterday and I was correct (which, given the "trial" the characters had wasn't a difficult suspicion)