Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dark Wizard 09-22-07, 10:39 PM	Just wanted to cite Rich Baker's Blog post on September 21 for those who don't check it often (I try to, but often forget that we have this news resource available): http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13860206#post13860206 Speaking of sunshine, here's a nice little ray of it I can share with everybody today: We've managed to book Ed Greenwood for 50,000 words of the new 4th Edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide. You might wonder why that would be something that even be remotely in question, but the fact is that Ed's a very busy guy with a number of other writing commitments (most notably for our own Forgotten Realms novels!) so it took some scheduling gymnastics on our part to make sure we could have him for a couple of months of writing time. In light of that, our story team had a good meeting specifically about FR yesterday afternoon. We reviewed our original revision plans (they're almost two years old) and talked about where we are with the project, and we kicked around the question of how much "course correction" we want to make now that you fans have responded to some of the big reveals at the end of the Grand History. We're not pitching the plan and starting over (if that's what you were hoping for, sorry, ain't gonna happen), but we are definitely tweaking the plan to speak to some of the how-can-this-still-be-the-Realms! concerns that are out there. I like where we got to, and I think most of you will too. There is some good news here. That Ed is confirmed to contribute to the FRCS 4E gives us the most trusted source associable with the setting. The second part about some flexibility existing in the 4E transition plans offers some relief from the changes many feel negatively impact the Realms as we know them. While they will not (and probably cannot) undo the changes thus far, they still have room to maneuver to whatever direction they feel best. Personally I believe that this many turn out alright. Most of that faith is place in the power of the all mighty dollar. WotC is aware of fan opinion, so they will do what is best to ensure the 4E Realms are a success (including trying to get the "old guard" on board). Notice how all of the consequences of these changes are still unresolved as of the GHotR. Right now the changes are still very sketchy, with the proper details and care they can be spun into something interesting. Once again, change isn't the problem but rather the execution and quality of the change. (On the suggestion of GothicDan, I'm reposting this from another thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=924387&page=2), where a few responses already accumulated to this news.)
MarkusTay63 09-22-07, 11:03 PM	Thought people wouldn't see this in the "ask the designers" thread? ;) Glad to know our voices are being heard... <Please god... no century timeline jump>
Dark Wizard 09-22-07, 11:14 PM	In all the negativity found spread through the boards, sometimes every glimmer of positivity needs some space to grow. There are advantages to positive reinforcement. I think that while all the clamor against the changes presents one side of the story loudly (which maybe 'force' some re-examination), sometimes constructive criticism and politely stated requests go further because they are more reasonable to consider and easier for designers to think over rather than merely react to.
MarkusTay63 09-22-07, 11:35 PM	You call it negativity... I call it 'concern'. ;) Obssessive concern perhaps....
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-22-07, 11:37 PM	I agree that a "ray of sunshine" like this is good. But for my part, it's not going to make the other stuff I dislike go away. I doubt they are going to decide not to use the Spellplague, or bring back certain deities as arbitrarily as said deites were killed off, and all that "yucky" stuff outweighs the fact that Ed's working on the 4E. Ed ultimately has to work with these (poorly done) changes, he can't miraculously erase them. And since the 4E FRCS will detail a campaign setting so far removed from the FR version in my head, it's not very likely that I'm going to purchase it. There's no passionate hatred or maliciousness here, just acceptance of the fact that WotC and I will not be on the same page anymore.
msatran 09-23-07, 12:01 AM	Yeah. This is just a silly 9/11 rewrite, which is why I'm so offended by it. I live in the Tri state area, all of us are still angered by this whole WTC thing. And arcane magic is the WTC of the Realms. That's why I don't like it. It seems too much like someone is trying to make a political statement, and I'm genuinely offended.
The Ubbergeek 09-23-07, 12:30 AM	Why is it hard to get that it IS still the same realms, the same setting, really? You can't change the tropes there. Really, it is ridiculous to thing it's not the realms anymore. Sounds like a giant 'bawww'.
Moraser_the_Magnificent 09-23-07, 12:52 AM	Why is it hard to get that it IS still the same realms, the same setting, really? You can't change the tropes there. Really, it is ridiculous to think it's not the realms anymore. Sounds like a giant 'bawww'. Corrected your typo in the quote. I think what folks are saying is if the Realms take this turn, the GHotR book itself and the past 20 years of material give them MORE than ample material for a lifetime of campaigns without touching any $e books. Many of the deities are acting very counter-intuitively to their portfolios is the main beef. Tyr/Helm, Sune, Savras/Mystra is where my biggest beef lies. Tyr and Helm shouldn't throw down over a tart like Tymora, Sune shouldn't arrange a marriage where no love exists to begin with & Savras should have seen an assassination attempt from 5 years away. If you kill the flavor of the Realms, then you in parallel kill the most imaginative & well thought out fantasy world since Middle Earth. I've had a long standing campaign, and after the time of troubles, the group and myself hated the changes so bad, we set out to kill Cyric and resurrect Bhaal, Bane & Myrkul with success & we were a good aligned party.... Some wrongs can be set right with nothing more than an eraser, an apology and remembering that what "is" isn't the gospel to a DM. And it's more of a collective, "WTH?" than a "bawww".
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-23-07, 01:21 AM	Why is it hard to get that it IS still the same realms, the same setting, really? Why is it hard to get that NOT everyone is going to like what you like? I don't care if you think 4E Realms is going to be better than sex. If you pop a vein because I'm not going to compulsively buy anything with an FR label on it, that's your problem, not mine.
MerrikCale 09-23-07, 08:27 AM	<Please god... no century timeline jump> haven't they already stated officially the jump is 10 years
Andyr 09-23-07, 09:47 AM	As far as I know, the date for the jump has not been officially mentioned--guesses have been made at 1385 (based on GHotR) or 1485 (based on The Orc King) prologue, but in regards to reliable information I think we have very little.
Meldread 09-23-07, 10:11 AM	Many of the deities are acting very counter-intuitively to their portfolios is the main beef. Tyr/Helm, Sune, Savras/Mystra is where my biggest beef lies. Tyr and Helm shouldn't throw down over a tart like Tymora, Sune shouldn't arrange a marriage where no love exists to begin with & Savras should have seen an assassination attempt from 5 years away. Except it all seems to be Cyric's doing (with Shar pulling the strings). Cyric being the god of lies, deception, intrigue and murder it makes perfect sense. Remember that details were not given in the GHotR as to HOW it happened, only the results. Sure, Cyric in the past may have been an incompetent idiot but frankly I'd rather him be rewritten as having a brain and actually accomplishing something than remain that way for all time. As for Savras... well... let's not forget he was living in a stick up until the Time of Troubles when Azuth let him free. If Savras can be trapped in a scepter by a mortal, do you honestly think he stands a chance against two deities? One deity who embodies secrets and the other who embodies illusions, lies and deception? No, I don't think so. It might seem silly but at least it is consistent.
GothicDan 09-23-07, 10:35 AM	Why is it hard to get that NOT everyone is going to like what you like? I don't care if you think 4E Realms is going to be better than sex. If you pop a vein because I'm not going to compulsively buy anything with an FR label on it, that's your problem, not mine. Don't bother, Rino. Ubber has some mental processing issues, I think.
MarkusTay63 09-23-07, 11:33 AM	haven't they already stated officially the jump is 10 yearsNo As far as I know, the date for the jump has not been officially mentioned--guesses have been made at 1385 (based on GHotR) or 1485 (based on The Orc King) prologue, but in regards to reliable information I think we have very little.Correct A ten year jump will put a few people off, but there will be anough of the 'familiar' for it to still feel likeour Realms. A hundred years will wipe out all of the normal human NPCs, and nations will rise and fall - thats a bitter piulll to swallow whn coupled with the Spellplague. My personal reccomendation to designers - reset the year in 1390 DR, a mere five years after the Spellplague. New magic traditions are being developed, and the rebuilding and healing processes have begun. Don't give us something new... let us fix the old... together.
johnkretzer 09-23-07, 12:35 PM	Except it all seems to be Cyric's doing (with Shar pulling the strings). Cyric being the god of lies, deception, intrigue and murder it makes perfect sense. Remember that details were not given in the GHotR as to HOW it happened, only the results. Sure, Cyric in the past may have been an incompetent idiot but frankly I'd rather him be rewritten as having a brain and actually accomplishing something than remain that way for all time. As for Savras... well... let's not forget he was living in a stick up until the Time of Troubles when Azuth let him free. If Savras can be trapped in a scepter by a mortal, do you honestly think he stands a chance against two deities? One deity who embodies secrets and the other who embodies illusions, lies and deception? No, I don't think so. It might seem silly but at least it is consistent. Sure Cyric is what you said about him, but shouldn't the other gods be what they are too? I mean Tyr is the god of justice. Shouldn't he look into the facts before jumpimg to conclusion like asking Helm maybe before challenging him to a duel to the death? Also Helm is the god of guardians, shouldn't he be able to see though Cyrics tricks? Sune...I can see her trying this she was playing matchmaker and was trying to build a romanitc relationship between the two, but Tymora going for it? And Tyr going with it? Also there is the way Cyric got deception as a portfolio. He tricked the previous goddess of this stuff, sorry just don't see it happening Then there is the fact that Cyric killed Mystra and he gets locked up for 1000 years...why not just kill him. You want us to respect what Cyric is the god of...shouldn't you and the designers respect what the gods are too? Also I never like the concept of the gods being highlanders. It is silly that if God A kills God B the God A get God B stuff...just doesn't make sense.
Green Elven Vampire 09-23-07, 12:56 PM	And then Erevan Ilesere comes along and steals the GHOTR and spills a plethora of fey wine all over its pages and so WoTc has to release 5ED in another five years!!
Meldread 09-23-07, 03:13 PM	I mean Tyr is the god of justice. Shouldn't he look into the facts before jumpimg to conclusion like asking Helm maybe before challenging him to a duel to the death? I don't have GHotR in front of me but who said he didn't? I don't think Tyr just showed up and cut off Helm's head. He had to believe that he was correct - that he knew the truth and that Helm was guilty of a crime. Because he believed Helm was guilty of a crime, and because he is the god of justice, he was fated to carry out his actions. Also Helm is the god of guardians, shouldn't he be able to see though Cyrics tricks? No, there really is no reason Helm should have been able to see through Cyric's tricks. Besides who is to say that Cyric was even tricking Helm? Wouldn't Tymora or Sune be easier targets? Sune...I can see her trying this she was playing matchmaker and was trying to build a romanitc relationship between the two, but Tymora going for it? And Tyr going with it? From what I understand it was more of an arranged marriage type of deal. It was to be a political marriage that Sune was trying to orchestrate to avoid conflict. She most likely tried to throw a little romance and love in there, but over all it wasn't about that. It had to do with events taking place in the mortal world and the possible repercussions for the deities. Also there is the way Cyric got deception as a portfolio. He tricked the previous goddess of this stuff, sorry just don't see it happening It may seem silly, but there is something poetic about deceiving the goddess of deceit out of her power. Then there is the fact that Cyric killed Mystra and he gets locked up for 1000 years...why not just kill him. Cyric only killed Mystra with Shar's help and it is highly likely that Shar could have killed Mystra herself (using their game stats). There is also the possibility that Mystra could have been weakened at the time. However, Cyric was imprisoned by three other greater deities. The reason he was not killed is likely because they could not kill him. They probably wish they could have killed him, but simply wouldn't have been able to do it successfully. So they did the next best thing. They imprisoned him. You want us to respect what Cyric is the god of...shouldn't you and the designers respect what the gods are too? I don't see any signs of disrespect. Simply put we do not know the details of any of these events, only that they happened and the important players involved. Without the details we really don't know anything. Also I never like the concept of the gods being highlanders. It is silly that if God A kills God B the God A get God B stuff...just doesn't make sense. That does not always happen. In order for them to collect those portfolio’s Ao has to sanction it.
Moraser_the_Magnificent 09-24-07, 12:26 AM	Savras was the Seer & Patron of Diviners. Kinda dumb for him to miss being blown to hell along with Mystra in his crystal ball. And I just don't see Cyric being able to stand up to Sune, Lathander, & Tyr. A single of them, maybe. But any two or all 3? Cyric hasn't been a deity long enough to know the ins and outs of the fights that any of those 3 have seen. All in all, some of the points you made have some merit. With Helm out of the way/distracted he wouldn't be able to warn Mystra of the impending assassination. But it doesn't remove the fact that Savras wouldn't see it coming. Divination is the nemesis of illusion & deceit. But if Shar goes unpunished for deicide & Cyric only gets a miniscule punishment of a thousand years of imprisonment there really isn't anything saying that the evils of the world won't just walk over and punk someone else. Hopefully Selune will drop the hammer on Shar. The only rectifications I could see would be someone like the Simbul rising and taking Mystra's place, at which point I could certainly see myself buying the 4e Realms stuff. One semi-psychotic battle mage with all the magic of the world at her fingertips could certainly be entertaining.
johnkretzer 09-24-07, 12:36 AM	Cyric only killed Mystra with Shar's help and it is highly likely that Shar could have killed Mystra herself (using their game stats). There is also the possibility that Mystra could have been weakened at the time. However, Cyric was imprisoned by three other greater deities. The reason he was not killed is likely because they could not kill him. They probably wish they could have killed him, but simply wouldn't have been able to do it successfully. So they did the next best thing. They imprisoned him. Why couldn't they kill him? Tyr just killed Helm who is a greater god too. Also it would be in the province of Tyr to kill him since it would be justice...and well muder is generaly against the law. Also read the GHotR more...it entry gaved me enough details. To make those statements. You might disagree but it is matter of opinion. Also about Liera...it is dumb. Can you stop having the Greek soap opera pantheon and a pantheon that is semi-intelligent.
MarkusTay63 09-24-07, 01:05 AM	Savras was the Seer & Patron of Diviners. Kinda dumb for him to miss being blown to hell along with Mystra in his crystal ball.I have the most problem with that particular part myself. The only thing I can think of is that he was killed BECAUSE he knew what would happen. Either he was taken out first by Cyric/Shar for that reason, or he 'ported to Mytsra's side to help protect her, and was killed when he got in the way. Whose to say that HIS death didn't hold off the bad guys and allow Velsharoon and Azuth to escape? Perhaps he saw every possible out-come, and chose that particular path as the best one to follow? I have no answer for the silly "Divine Soap Opera" scenario. Thats just waaaay out there for me. :rolleyes:
Meldread 09-24-07, 03:23 AM	Savras was the Seer & Patron of Diviners. Kinda dumb for him to miss being blown to hell along with Mystra in his crystal ball. Yes, but you are forgetting that Savras was trapped within a stick by a mortal. He remained in that stick until the Time of Troubles and was only released after pledging an oath of fealty. Considering that happened to him it should not be hard to imagine two deities with the combined portfolios of secrets, illusions, intrigue, deception and lies managing to pull off what they did. Why couldn't they kill him? Tyr just killed Helm who is a greater god too. Also it would be in the province of Tyr to kill him since it would be justice...and well muder is generaly against the law. Because we do not know how powerful Cyric became after killing Mystra. We also do not know the circumstances surrounding the gods after her death. Their powers could have been seriously weakened. We do not know if Cyric switched to the Shadow Weave or not, and if the Shadow Weave survived at least a little while after the destruction of the Weave. There are an endless number of things that we do not know. We don't even know how it happened, only that it did. Can you stop having the Greek soap opera pantheon and a pantheon that is semi-intelligent. Welcome to the Forgotten Realm's. All of this is nothing new.
Dark Wizard 09-24-07, 03:37 AM	Welcome to the Forgotten Realm's. All of this is nothing new. That's the first thing the New Realms should change. The non-intelligent part mainly, probably should reduce the Greek soap opera elements. Even then, the Greek pantheon went through a lot less of these wishy-washy plot puddles. When things happened, they were badass.
MerrikCale 09-24-07, 09:45 PM	No i think you're wrong
MarkusTay63 09-25-07, 02:05 PM	Only the jump in the GHotR is 10 years - what will happen in the FRCS is still not definate.
sillaric_culdanin 09-26-07, 06:53 PM	Only the jump in the GHotR is 10 years - what will happen in the FRCS is still not definate. I have to say that now having read both the posted sample chapter from the site and reading the teaser bit in the Scenario Pack (the Drizzt/Wulgar/Icingdeath free-for-all minis set) I am having a very dark suspicion that Markus was correct about a century-long jump in the timeline. By the sound of the in-character bits in Orc King the Spellplague and the destruction it causes will take a long time to settle out. I also find it interesting that Drizzt would even have information regarding the fates of far-off nations like Thay and Mulhorand unless the wayward drow takes a tour of the disaster zone some time after Bruenor/Obould's treaty. Very unsettling... although not without merit in its way. We'll have to wait and see of course... and a long wait it will be from now until August 08.
MerrikCale 09-26-07, 10:24 PM	Only the jump in the GHotR is 10 years - what will happen in the FRCS is still not definate. I thought they announced at GenCon the leap will be 10 years
Diffan 09-27-07, 08:53 AM	...I also find it interesting that Drizzt would even have information regarding the fates of far-off nations like Thay and Mulhorand unless the wayward drow takes a tour of the disaster zone some time after Bruenor/Obould's treaty. He is a very close friend with High Lady Alustriel Silverhand who I'm sure gets all sorts of news/info from around the world, espically from her sisters and El I'd guess.
Suin Bahhar 09-27-07, 09:34 AM	I thought they announced at GenCon the leap will be 10 years Nothing official, from GENCON or WotC yet. The Diecides story introduced as of now does intrigue me, even though I dislike chucking away dieties as they are nice roleplaying tools. Thats the main beef I have with all these changes. Patron gods (especially their dogmas) give lots of roleplaying potential to characters aside from alignment and characterbuild. I still would love to see Tyr reevaluating himself after he learnes about the deciet and trickery. He could follow up with a resurrection of Helm. Helm must have crossed Tyr pretty bad, but over a one-nightstand with Tymorra? Nah!
MarkusTay63 09-27-07, 10:48 AM	I thought they announced at GenCon the leap will be 10 yearsAs Suin said above, they only said the GHotR would be 10 years. Now, here's the thing - 1385 DR marks the beginning of the Spellplague... Drizzt talks about 'a cantury of misery'... and the designers have hinted that the new FRCS will start when the Spellplague has ended. Ergo, one can conclude that the 4e FRCS WILL be set a hundred years from now. :( However, Many other major events take place in that century Drizzt is talking about, so the Spellplague itself may have ended sooner. We can only hope.
msatran 09-27-07, 12:33 PM	I mean, IF Cyric is responsible. They only sense the hand of Cyric and imprisoned him. If you want to write a Divine Murder Mystery...which would sure as hell be an interesting book, this has all the trappings of a great one. Heck, I'll even write it for them for whatever their standard rate is once I finish my current projects.
johnkretzer 09-27-07, 03:27 PM	He is a very close friend with High Lady Alustriel Silverhand who I'm sure gets all sorts of news/info from around the world, espically from her sisters and El I'd guess. Yeah except that the weaves went bye-bye...I am guessing only one of the sisters will be left...and it is not Alustriel.
MarkusTay63 09-27-07, 03:57 PM	Well, Sylūne is dead (really, REALLY dead this time), and I thought I read somewhere the Lariel might die as well (something about the kid becoming an orphan, but I don't really remember where that's from, so take it with a grain of salt). Without a leash, the Simbul's going to go balistic, and most likely die (wasn't she border-line insane to begin with?) Alustriel has to survive, at least for awhile, because of all the stuff with Obould right now. Qilue will probably die - Skullport IS in Undermountain, in the old Sargauth Enclave, wich DID collapse the last time Mystra died and the Weave fell. Dove - don't know much about her, but if the 'Black Star' incident referenced in the old Grey Box is tied to the Spellplague, and is therefore partly Dove's fault, then I think she deserves a death MOST HORRIBLE. :devil: Wasn't there another one running around somewhere? :confused: I guess she's so dull I can't even be bothered to remember her name. Ergo, she should die of boredom. :P
ikki 09-27-07, 06:41 PM	storm -the bard in lightning armor.. and lariel, something... aka mrs blackstaff Chances are they will all be deaders tho.
Steel Rabbit 09-28-07, 11:39 PM	Yeah. This is just a silly 9/11 rewrite, which is why I'm so offended by it. I live in the Tri state area, all of us are still angered by this whole WTC thing. And arcane magic is the WTC of the Realms. That's why I don't like it. It seems too much like someone is trying to make a political statement, and I'm genuinely offended. Um... I'm sorry I think I missed something, what do you mean by this? I haven't heard any allusion to 9/11 anywhere on these boards or press releases...
MerrikCale 09-29-07, 09:13 AM	They have said they will not force-feed the points of light idea on the existing campaigns, i.e FR and Eberron
MarkusTay63 09-29-07, 01:14 PM	They have already gone back on this with the Orc King Spoiler. If that isn't 'Points of Light', then I would truly hate to see what they think would be.
mortellan 09-29-07, 01:22 PM	I agree wholly about the novel. A thinly veiled reference if ever I saw one. If the Realms wasn't being directed towards all these new 4E design philosophies, none of these RSE's would be needed.
MerrikCale 09-29-07, 01:44 PM	They have already gone back on this with the Orc King Spoiler. If that isn't 'Points of Light', then I would truly hate to see what they think would be. But again, we don't know if that trult is the future. The jump will only be 10 years.
sillaric_culdanin 09-29-07, 04:45 PM	But again, we don't know if that trult is the future. The jump will only be 10 years. Merrik, While I'm not saying I disagree completely, they're giving away a lot of stuff about the far future. Having now read Orc King I'm rapidly moving into the opinion that the the Realms will be set in 1485. The Spellplague just seems like it will do too much long lasting damage to have groups playing in the year the blasted event takes place. I'm not by any means making a statement about whether I think that fact alone will make or break the 4e Realms... but I'm leaning more and more that way now. Another interesting point, Drizzt alludes to the fact that the predominantly moon elves of the Moonwood (or Glimmerwood as its now called) are flourishing in 1485... is anyone a touch worried that the other subraces may be vanishing or disappearing, leaving Faerun's equivalent of the PHB elf all alone?
GothicDan 09-29-07, 08:12 PM	No, my Sun Elves! :(
msatran 09-30-07, 12:49 AM	Yeah, this reboot is going to suck. Richard Baker Must Be Stopped!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-01-07, 02:59 PM	I'm starting to suspect that there will be a 100 year jump, myself.
sillaric_culdanin 10-01-07, 06:22 PM	In some ways, maybe a 100 year jump would be better than a 10 year one. As a DM you'd have a good century to play through with your 3.5 stuff (or ten years if you decide to impose the Spellplague and its mechanical changes on the world) and could use the 4e FRCS as a cool far-future world that might occur if the PCs fail utterly in their chosen tasks... or possibly an eventual goal for evil-aligned parties.
18DELTA 10-01-07, 06:35 PM	I'm starting to suspect that there will be a 100 year jump, myself. I would rather have a 100 year time jump myself. Where did all these new wizardly orders come from all of a sudden? A 100 year time jump, will let the apocolypse calm down If it was a 100 year jump, I might get behind it. Yeah I have to make new npc, but I do that anyways. I kinda link the point of light concept. Some places it really fits, in some it dont, & we all know it. I just dislike the fact that it looks as if, the points of light places are going to become civil.The civil places are going to become points of light. JMHO;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-01-07, 09:25 PM	I would rather have a 100 year time jump myself. Where did all these new wizardly orders come from all of a sudden? A 100 year time jump, will let the apocolypse calm down If it was a 100 year jump, I might get behind it. Yeah I have to make new npc, but I do that anyways. I kinda link the point of light concept. Some places it really fits, in some it dont, & we all know it. I just dislike the fact that it looks as if, the points of light places are going to become civil.The civil places are going to become points of light. JMHO;) I probably won't get behind the new setting (and that's truly what it's becoming) regardless of what the time jump turns out to be, but I agree that a 100 year jump seems to make more sense--as we learn bit by bit what's going to happen with the new edition--than a 10 year one.
MarkusTay63 10-02-07, 02:01 AM	I've pretty much decided to run a Homebrew with the new rules - considering how generic they are flavor-wise they appear to cater to that. The new game I just started up is taking place in a tiny section of the Realms, and I will just port that region whole onto my new world maps when the time comes. The players won't even notice, except for having to interpret their characters into 4e rules. http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/RealmsTombstone.jpg Goodbye, old friend..... We will miss you. :weep: :allalone:
msatran 10-02-07, 02:07 AM	I'm not sure that homebrewing things is going to be functional, Markus. We're screwed no matter what we do now, thanks to politically correct orcs and dwarves too afraid to kill them. Wait...this sounds awfully like the RPGA. NO ONE CAN REALLY BE EVIL! Richard Baker Must Be Stopped!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-02-07, 07:10 PM	http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/RealmsTombstone.jpg Goodbye, old friend..... We will miss you. :weep: :allalone: :surrender :raincloud :weep:
MerrikCale 10-02-07, 09:02 PM	I honestly don't believe they will jump 100 years into the future. That would purposefully alienate a lot of existing campaigns. They must realize that many campaigns will convert not start new. Thus, they will kill off those potential buyers. Many of whom can adjust to a 10 year jump. Plus, why create this chaos only to have it fixed. Why not jump the new FRCS as the Spellplague is taking effect as opposed to after its all over.
Suin Bahhar 10-02-07, 09:16 PM	I agree.
Dark Wizard 10-02-07, 09:45 PM	I honestly don't believe they will jump 100 years into the future. That would purposefully alienate a lot of existing campaigns. They must realize that many campaigns will convert not start new. Thus, they will kill off those potential buyers. Many of whom can adjust to a 10 year jump. Plus, why create this chaos only to have it fixed. Why not jump the new FRCS as the Spellplague is taking effect as opposed to after its all over. I think they won't let the Spellplague continue to rage on by the time their FRCS 4E campaign start. They'll probably have most of it over with infrequent flare ups or the occasional warped mage wrecking havoc. This seems to be the setup revealed in the Orc King prologue. The reason I think this will be the approach take is something I heard years ago around the death of TSR and the rise of WotC's 3e. Some people asked why Dark Sun never took off the way something like the Realms or Dragonlance did. One of the big reasons tossed around was that Dark Sun focused a lot on simply survival. Athas' environment presented an ever-present enemy to the PCs. They couldn't ever defeat it, only forestall its effects. A niche setting with a constantly hazardous environment is okay to visit but it makes for poor wide appeal. People for the most part want to kill monsters, loot their treasure, save kingdoms and get the girl/guy. They do not want every game they play in a setting to force them to spend half their time and resources dealing with a mutable world engulfed with magical blue flames or the threat of the party mage suddenly going nuts on them because of the Spellplague. So occasional Spellplague flare ups spices things up, constant Spellplague dangers gets repetitive without the rewards, it only ends up killing characters. There would be no points of light, just constant darkness. Of course when they changed Dark Sun with the revision into something closer to typical fantasy, the original fans balked at it. The original Dark Sun was what it was unabashed. If you played in it you knew you had to spend time surviving and not just adventuring, that was the flavor of the setting.
MarkusTay63 10-02-07, 10:35 PM	I concur. 10 years is when the Spellplague begins. Who knows how long the chaos will last? It certainly doesn't sound like it will be over in a day, or even five years. Then magic comes back and everything starts over where that is concerned. How can we have a campaign when no one knows how to do magic? Also, the maps are going to be changed (several BIG hints to that effect), which means political boundaries will be in flux. It might be an exciting time to adventure, but it would be nearly impossible to write rules or a CS for. So, we will be given a fresh NEW setting after the troubles are over, and all the rules changes (like magic traditions) will be exsplained away by the jump in time. The Orc King spoiler was just a hint, mind you. I have a feeling it's going to actually be a whole lot worse. :( How do we know that that Spoiler isn't 500 years in the new settings past? :eek:
MerrikCale 10-02-07, 10:46 PM	Perhaps I'm wrong but I still don't buy it. I can't believe they would be so stupid as to alienate everyone who has an existing campaign going in FR. They know a 10 year jump is risky, but a 100? They would tick off everyone.
Dark Wizard 10-02-07, 11:17 PM	They don't seem to have a problem with that. They possibly feel the Realms brand can survive it. A 10 year jump is not too risky, I believe there was a jump of similar magnitude not long after the ToT and the Horde Invasion. Granted there wasn't a new giant RSE at the end of it, but that's the point I think they want to move beyond the latest RSE, go past the Spellplague a bit so points of light can emerge from the darkness. So maybe at least a few years after the Spellplague depending on how long it lasts, maybe 10 more years so then a minimum of 20.
Meldread 10-03-07, 02:51 AM	MerrikCale- They already said that people should begin wrapping up their campaigns and prepare to start new ones. This was announced at the same time as 4E. If we take everything we know and expect into account, there is absolutely no way they can pull it off in a small period of time. We're looking at an event that lasts ten years, minimum - starting in 1385 DR.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-03-07, 02:21 PM	Perhaps I'm wrong but I still don't buy it. I can't believe they would be so stupid as to alienate everyone who has an existing campaign going in FR. They know a 10 year jump is risky, but a 100? They would tick off everyone. *chuckles* Well, they've ticked me off already, and they haven't even announced when the new campaign will be set. Also, they haven't exactly been accomodating to those who wish to convert. They've said stuff like "you should probably just start a new game".
SCMrks 10-03-07, 03:20 PM	I think the timeline jump is going to be the 100 years and not just 10. One of the designers has made a statement along the lines that -nobody said the timeline would be 1385- that is just when the Spellplague starts. The Spellplague is described as doing a lot of damage. Doesn't the Orc King mention Luskan experiencing thousands of deaths? That is one city, I'm imagining a time of bodies in the street and mass graves because there are too many to bury. And many gods are killed, planes are destroyed and rearranged and magic goes crazy. This does not sound like a good background for a campaign setting atleast for most playing groups. Who could play a wizard or cleric? Magic would drive you insane or kill you or your god could be dead and you have no spells. So I think a lot of time needs to go by for the Spellplague to have its effects, then the deaths stop, society starts to rebuild and consolidate into points of light/hope, the surviving gods get control of the new cosmology, new ways to use magic are discovered then mastered, then the world is ready for players to play in. Also, the world needs to get used to the new magic system, tieflings and eladrin walking around everywhere, good guy orcs, and anything else being added to or changed in the world. These things are new to us but they will be the norm for 4th edition characters so there needs to be time for them to become the norm in the world. I think 4th ed Forgotten Realms is going to be as close to the core rules as possible because the RPGA Living Campaign will be Forgotten Realms. One core to rule them all will be easier for all of the players. It will be a normal setting in which players can play a wizard without going insane and play a cleric without worrying your god will be killed. Everything will be settled down by time the campaigns begin.
Alediran 10-03-07, 04:04 PM	I think the timeline jump is going to be the 100 years and not just 10. One of the designers has made a statement along the lines that -nobody said the timeline would be 1385- that is just when the Spellplague starts. The Spellplague is described as doing a lot of damage. Doesn't the Orc King mention Luskan experiencing thousands of deaths? That is one city, I'm imagining a time of bodies in the street and mass graves because there are too many to bury. And many gods are killed, planes are destroyed and rearranged and magic goes crazy. This does not sound like a good background for a campaign setting atleast for most playing groups. Who could play a wizard or cleric? Magic would drive you insane or kill you or your god could be dead and you have no spells. So I think a lot of time needs to go by for the Spellplague to have its effects, then the deaths stop, society starts to rebuild and consolidate into points of light/hope, the surviving gods get control of the new cosmology, new ways to use magic are discovered then mastered, then the world is ready for players to play in. Also, the world needs to get used to the new magic system, tieflings and eladrin walking around everywhere, good guy orcs, and anything else being added to or changed in the world. These things are new to us but they will be the norm for 4th edition characters so there needs to be time for them to become the norm in the world. I think 4th ed Forgotten Realms is going to be as close to the core rules as possible because the RPGA Living Campaign will be Forgotten Realms. One core to rule them all will be easier for all of the players. It will be a normal setting in which players can play a wizard without going insane and play a cleric without worrying your god will be killed. Everything will be settled down by time the campaigns begin. *Vomits for the 10th time in the day*
Markustay 10-03-07, 05:09 PM	@MerrikCale - I hope to god you are right, but there are just too many things pointing otherwise. Notice how when someone mentions a 'ten year jump', the designers are quick to correct them with "we never said the new CS would be set in 1485", yet whenever we are discussing a century time jump they NEVER correct THAT? The new setting (and yes, even the designers keep calling it that) will be emerging from an FR 'Dark Ages' - feel lucky if the time jump is merely a century. :( "Ages of Dragonlance" here we come. :nonono: *Vomits for the 10th time in the day*No, no... We keep telling you it isn't going to be 10, it going to be a century (at least). Ergo, you need to vomit at least 100 times now. ;)
MerrikCale 10-03-07, 11:46 PM	MerrikCale- They already said that people should begin wrapping up their campaigns and prepare to start new ones. This was announced at the same time as 4E. If we take everything we know and expect into account, there is absolutely no way they can pull it off in a small period of time. We're looking at an event that lasts ten years, minimum - starting in 1385 DR. That was more of a general comment than one aimed at FR. They said that PCs will not be easily switched to the new rules. We shall see.
MerrikCale 10-03-07, 11:50 PM	@MerrikCale - I hope to god you are right, but there are just too many things pointing otherwise. Notice how when someone mentions a 'ten year jump', the designers are quick to correct them with "we never said the new CS would be set in 1485", yet whenever we are discussing a century time jump they NEVER correct THAT? The new setting (and yes, even the designers keep calling it that) will be emerging from an FR 'Dark Ages' - feel lucky if the time jump is merely a century. :( "Ages of Dragonlance" here we come. :nonono: How can they possibly be that stupid? Really. Lets imagine if you will there are currently 300 seperate FR campaigns out there now. Some of which going on for upwards of 20 years. A 10 year jump can be dealt with. A 100 cannot. So they sit around (meaning the FR designers) and say what? "hey lets single handledly ruin every one of those 300 campaigns and jump ahead 100 years" "Brillant!!!" I chose to at least hope the new designers are not the dumbest marketing team ever assembled. Perhaps I am naive, but its what I'm going with for the time being.
Dark Wizard 10-04-07, 12:18 AM	How can they possibly be that stupid? Really. Lets imagine if you will there are currently 300 seperate FR campaigns out there now. Some of which going on for upwards of 20 years. A 10 year jump can be dealt with. A 100 cannot. So they sit around (meaning the FR designers) and say what? "hey lets single handledly ruin every one of those 300 campaigns and jump ahead 100 years" "Brillant!!!" I chose to at least hope the new designers are not the dumbest marketing team ever assembled. Perhaps I am naive, but its what I'm going with for the time being. Simple, they had too much Guinness while writing this stuff up.
sillaric_culdanin 10-04-07, 01:54 PM	There is also the pressing argument that they're not ruining anything at all... the new setting is just that. With the vast array of 3.XE stuff already published and the new novel lines (Lisa's, Paul's and Thomas Reid's) added to the GHotR as story seeds and whatnot you could just keep going with the old edition rules or reimagine your current characters, play with the new rules but don't push any of your timelines forward a bit. Maybe WotC, or Hasbro or whoever came up with the timeline jump idea was thinking something along the lines of: "We've sold as many products as we can, set in the 1370s, to our current customer base... if we're going to draw in a new group let's jump the timeline and see if we can't drum some added base customers..." I'm not saying that I have that on any authority or that its correct even if its the prevailing philosophy whether it holds water (I personally have bought every Realms product and would have continued to do so... even the ones I didn't find as useful at the table were still fun to read through)... but maybe that's the logic behind it all. Who knows?
MerrikCale 10-04-07, 08:02 PM	There is also the pressing argument that they're not ruining anything at all... the new setting is just that. With the vast array of 3.XE stuff already published and the new novel lines (Lisa's, Paul's and Thomas Reid's) added to the GHotR as story seeds and whatnot you could just keep going with the old edition rules or reimagine your current characters, play with the new rules but don't push any of your timelines forward a bit. OK then why buy any materials of FR in the 4e. They want us to follow the story so we can keep buying sourcebooks and the like
sillaric_culdanin 10-05-07, 06:00 PM	In everything I've read Markus' idea about having the 100 year gap to write as many novels as they like seems like it could be the case. The new FRCS and whatever supplements they release for it will expand upon the new 'recommended time period' for 4e Realms gaming... that's one way to look at it I guess.
johnkretzer 10-05-07, 09:31 PM	There is also the pressing argument that they're not ruining anything at all... the new setting is just that. With the vast array of 3.XE stuff already published and the new novel lines (Lisa's, Paul's and Thomas Reid's) added to the GHotR as story seeds and whatnot you could just keep going with the old edition rules or reimagine your current characters, play with the new rules but don't push any of your timelines forward a bit. Maybe WotC, or Hasbro or whoever came up with the timeline jump idea was thinking something along the lines of: "We've sold as many products as we can, set in the 1370s, to our current customer base... if we're going to draw in a new group let's jump the timeline and see if we can't drum some added base customers..." I'm not saying that I have that on any authority or that its correct even if its the prevailing philosophy whether it holds water (I personally have bought every Realms product and would have continued to do so... even the ones I didn't find as useful at the table were still fun to read through)... but maybe that's the logic behind it all. Who knows? You there is you are wrong there about a dozen places they haven't covered in 3.5 in the FR in soucebooks. The problem here there are done writing the novels for that time period. After reading Mr. Baker's response to question I asked all these changes are not for the FR as a RPG setting, but for the novel department. Heck reading it I almost got to say they are bringing 4th edition so that they can write better novel with in a D&D universe. Sigh personaly I think they should just find better writers...the only one currently that I still like a little bit is Mr. Salvatore...though usualy that is when he is not writing the Drizzt stuff.
sillaric_culdanin 10-06-07, 03:14 AM	You there is you are wrong there about a dozen places they haven't covered in 3.5 in the FR in soucebooks. The problem here there are done writing the novels for that time period. After reading Mr. Baker's response to question I asked all these changes are not for the FR as a RPG setting, but for the novel department. Heck reading it I almost got to say they are bringing 4th edition so that they can write better novel with in a D&D universe. Sigh personaly I think they should just find better writers...the only one currently that I still like a little bit is Mr. Salvatore...though usualy that is when he is not writing the Drizzt stuff. Hehe, I'm sorry for the confusion but I don't think that they've written/sold all the 3.X/1370s supplements they could have (I can think of a dozen more that I'd gladly trade my hard-earned cash for: Cormyr, the Old Empires, the Utter East, Chult, Lands of Intrigue, the Western Heartlands, etc.), rather I was just postulating a possible reason for what seems a strange choice on the surface. I hadn't read that particular post from Rich regarding the novel being the reason for the time leap... but it makes sense. As others have already posted, its the novels that fund this monster, not the gaming lines... they are more of a sometimes lucrative side-business... as sad as that is. I agree on Salvatore but I think that there is a lot to like about some of the other author's work as well (Lisa's a great writer whether you like the direction of the storyline and Paul is the first writer to make me really feel for a paladin in I can't tell you how long). That said, you and msatran seem like you have a pretty damn cool group going, good gaming!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-06-07, 11:13 PM	OK then why buy any materials of FR in the 4e. They want us to follow the story so we can keep buying sourcebooks and the like I don't plan on buying them--I'll be voting with my dollar. I'm even undecided as to whether or not I'll be buying the novels, although there are authors who write books I enjoy and I would like to support them, even if I don't support the direction of the setting.
Markustay 10-06-07, 11:41 PM	A little poem written by Welsh poet Dylan Thomas in 1951 - "Do not go gentle into that good night, Old age should burn and rave at close of day; Rage, rage against the dying of the light. Though wise men at their end know dark is right, Because their words had forked no lightning they Do not go gentle into that good night. Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay, Rage, rage against the dying of the light. Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight, And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way, Do not go gentle into that good night. Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay, Rage, rage against the dying of the light. And you, my father, there on the sad height, Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray. Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light." If you truly love the Realms, do not go blindly into the darkness, but Rage against the night. We fans will keep the Realms we love alight in the years ahead - they can't take that from us. :cool:
Keahi19 10-11-07, 01:32 AM	Well I hope its handled correctly and it does make me feel better to know they are at least considering it. I don't expect them to change everything, but that they trod more carefully and are sensitive to the fans makes me feel better. Thank you for bringing us some good news.