Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Reneshat 10-14-07, 03:37 AM	For those of you who have any idea who I am, and have not figured it out yet, I am not nearly as knowledgeable about FR Lore as the vast majority of you. Part of this comes from the fact that aside from video games, I've never actually been lucky enough to be able to play in the Forgotten Realms. Most of my friends don't seem to like the idea of playing in the Realms, and despite how I might read various books like Volo's Guides and the like (my backpack currently holds GHotR, Grand Tour of the Realms, and Running the Realms) I've never really felt comfortable running a Realms game for Realms fans I didn't know who probably were more familiar with the world from actually playing in it for years and reading most of the novels. The reason I am explaining this, is I'm certain my my question is going to sound stupid to someone at least, so I'm trying to explain why my knowledge of the Realms is spotty, and lacks the depth normally associated with these boards. Not too long ago, there was a comment (I think it was by Ed) that there was a reason that Abeir-Toril started being called simply Toril and that this would be explained further. Grand History of the Realms came out, and I noticed that the Tearfall is where the book moves from referring to Abeir-Toril, to simply Toril. Later on there is a place where Kisonraathiisar is talking about what I can only assume is the Tearfall. In there he refers to "The Hills of the Seven Lost Gods" and the "Drifting Stars." I cannot place either of these, so I was hoping that someone might be able to help me with what these are references to, and what this might mean. It also mentions reversing what the elves caused, but since that would have been pre-Evermeet, I don't think it would be referring to the Sundering. Any insight would be beneficial.
Fabius Maximus 10-14-07, 08:12 PM	You're right. That means it wasn't the Sundering that divided the two worlds, it was the Tearfall. Interesting. That explains that obscure Sarrukh lore about the "changing of the stars". But that cannot be what the dragon relates to in the sidebar. He (or she) essentially says the the Hlls of the Seven Lost Gods are a weapon to shoot down the King-Killer Star that triggers the Dracorage mythal. But at the time of the Tearfall, the mythal wasn't installed yet, because the dragons came into the world through the Tearfall in the first place, and the first elves arrived several thousand years later. It's the most confusing sidebar in the whole book (and the completely unrelated artwork doesn't help either). EDIT: I have another idea. What if we don't try to make sense out of the sidebar as such, but take it as granted and "wrap history around it". ;) When the elder wyrms Kisonraathiisar mentions hit Selūne with said weapon, they might indeed caused the Tearfall... if the weapon was strong enough to reach through time. Whe know that elven High Magic often had unwanted effects. Maybe draconic epic magic has the same problem. That would make the dragons responsible for altering the timeline from about -31.000 DR. The Tears of Selūne reportedly just "pop into existence" at about -3.500 DR, according to Spelljammer sources. So, the dragons take a shot at the King-Killer Star, miss, and hit the moon. Since they use magic, something goes awry (since Mystryl is part of Selūne). The beam, bolt, or whatever strikes Selūne in the past. The biggest chunk falls on Abeir-Toril, creating the Inner Sea. The rest of the debris is somehow scattered into the dragon's future. The whole temporal effect creates to different timelines, one called Toril, one called Abeir. That would explain why no one had heard about that draconic stunt before. And why Mystryl had such strict rules about time travelling, too. This somehow reminds me of Star Trek. And not in a good way.
Reneshat 10-15-07, 01:47 AM	You're right. That means it wasn't the Sundering that divided the two worlds, it was the Tearfall. Interesting. That explains that obscure Sarrukh lore about the "changing of the stars". But that cannot be what the dragon relates to in the sidebar. He (or she) essentially says the the Hlls of the Seven Lost Gods are a weapon to shoot down the King-Killer Star that triggers the Dracorage mythal. But at the time of the Tearfall, the mythal wasn't installed yet, because the dragons came into the world through the Tearfall in the first place, and the first elves arrived several thousand years later. It's the most confusing sidebar in the whole book (and the completely unrelated artwork doesn't help either). EDIT: I have another idea. What if we don't try to make sense out of the sidebar as such, but take it as granted and "wrap history around it". ;) When the elder wyrms Kisonraathiisar mentions hit Selūne with said weapon, they might indeed caused the Tearfall... if the weapon was strong enough to reach through time. Whe know that elven High Magic often had unwanted effects. Maybe draconic epic magic has the same problem. That would make the dragons responsible for altering the timeline from about -31.000 DR. The Tears of Selūne reportedly just "pop into existence" at about -3.500 DR, according to Spelljammer sources. So, the dragons take a shot at the King-Killer Star, miss, and hit the moon. Since they use magic, something goes awry (since Mystryl is part of Selūne). The beam, bolt, or whatever strikes Selūne in the past. The biggest chunk falls on Abeir-Toril, creating the Inner Sea. The rest of the debris is somehow scattered into the dragon's future. The whole temporal effect creates to different timelines, one called Toril, one called Abeir. That would explain why no one had heard about that draconic stunt before. And why Mystryl had such strict rules about time travelling, too. This somehow reminds me of Star Trek. And not in a good way. So it could not have had the effect of "leaving a string of tears and an inland sea," because it obviously could not have been used before the Dragons existed, unless this did of course cause the temporal distortion that you talked about. I still can't help but think that that side-bar (warforged aside) is the key to understanding the two worlds, seeing how the things contained within it do not work chronologically, and it makes reference to what theoretically caused the Tearfall, the introduction of the dragons to Faerun, and the changing of the name. Rich Baker listens to Barbara Streisand.
Fingoldfin 10-15-07, 02:21 AM	It all has something to do with the Sundering. The GHotR says that the magic of the Sundering extends forward and backward in time. It also says that Evermeet is a piece of Arvandor and is a bridge between both worlds. If the weave unravels then the magic that holds that bridge in place is lost. The magic backlash will extend forward and backward in time again. Evermeet will never have existed. Could the magic of the Sundering be the cause of the tearfall? Did the tearfall cause the split between Abier and Toril? If this is true then the Un-sundering could also undo the tearfall. The loss of the weave is the spark, the sundering is the powder, and the tearfall is the bullet? What do you think?
Reneshat 10-15-07, 02:35 AM	It all has something to do with the Sundering. The GHotR says that the magic of the Sundering extends forward and backward in time. It also says that Evermeet is a piece of Arvandor and is a bridge between both worlds. If the weave unravels then the magic that holds that bridge in place is lost. The magic backlash will extend forward and backward in time again. Evermeet will never have existed. Could the magic of the Sundering be the cause of the tearfall? Did the tearfall cause the split between Abier and Toril? If this is true then the Un-sundering could also undo the tearfall. The loss of the weave is the spark, the sundering is the powder, and the tearfall is the bullet? What do you think? Well we know that the Dragons caused Tearfall, or at the very leas their failure did. If the Sundering caused the Tearfall to occur when it did, then that would explain that. It would also make sense under that situation for the Sundering to cause the split, and the Tearfall being the earliest effect of the Sundering to be the signal, not the cause. All of this is pure conjuncture though. I think it's important to note that the GHotR says that it is "thought to be a piece of Arvandor (GHotR)," not that it "is a piece of Arvandor (you)." That is a very important distinction, because that says that they could be wrong and it's just a piece of the main land cut off when the continents split. Still, if the Sundering is the cause of this and it is undone, then Tearfall still would not have occurred when it did, and who knows what would happen to the dragons. The hinting at the merging of two worlds seems to be a lot bigger deal the more I seem to find. Rich Baker supports global warming.
MarkusTay63 10-15-07, 08:48 AM	What if, instead of a piece of Arvandor, the Sundering Ritual reached back through time and cause the tearfall, blasting away a chunk of the Moon which then breaks into several pieces... And one of those becomes Evermeet. :eek: Then Evermeet wouldn't be magical because it is part of Arvandor, but rather part of Sylune. Even if Evermeet itself isn't part of the moon, just distrurbing the Moon's orbit in a such a catastrophic fashion would wreak untold havoc on the planet - earthquakes, floods, tectonic activity... In fact, it would change the world as we know it. ;)
Fabius Maximus 10-15-07, 10:40 AM	It's not the Sundering. It's the dragon's weapon that causes the Tearfall, if one is to believe a certain topaz dragon. The Sundering may or may not had temporal effects. It could be that the elves created it in a way that the island existed in both worlds or in the one world before Tearfall, to ensure that Evermeet will be there if Abeir and Toril are ever joined again.
MarkusTay63 10-15-07, 10:51 AM	Did you ever read the X-Man comic where Kulan Gath reforms the world in his own image, and kills Spiderman? It was pretty cool (one of my all-time favorites). Anyhow, Kulan Gath somehow affected time, so that the Hyborian Age never fell, and everyone on Earth became 'conanized' (Thor still looked the same ;) ). Anyhow, It ends with Dr.Strange casting a spell that will alter reality so that the events leading up to Kulan Gath's release never happen. A hole opens up in the space-time continuum, and Nimrod steps through, killing the man who found the 'phylactory' before he ever found it. Thats how Nimrod enter X-Men comics - he was from another reality. Now, my point is, the Elves needed a crib to chill in, so they cast their spell, same as Dr. Strange. It randomly reaches back through time and seizing on an event and alters it. It causes the Draconic doomsday weapon to mis-fire, creating the Tearfall and all the resulting history since. Plain and simple, see? When in doubt, one should always fall back on comic books for eternal wisdom. :P
Lord Karsus 10-15-07, 01:03 PM	-Messing with the time-space continuum is never a good equation for any setting, except the 616 Universe.
meto30 10-15-07, 01:28 PM	I'm feeling like I'm in Quantum Physics 101 instead of an FR forum. Ah, my head aches. But, if the Sundering is assumed to be the cause of the tearfall via temporal effects, then un-Sundering will require another temporal change, undoing the tearfall and undoing everything that happend thereafter. Would this mean that Toril is going to get 'formatted' and turn out completely different from now? No dragons, no certain nations, no certain spells, etc? I guess it will be safe for me to avoid this entire storyline if I am to ever run my campaign normally. Thank god I'm the only one who knows the setting on the table :) all my players are newbies
18DELTA 10-15-07, 01:50 PM	Did you ever read the X-Man comic where Kulan Gath reforms the world in his own image, and kills Spiderman? I was pretty cool (one of my all-time favorites). Anyhow, Kulan Gath somehow affected time, so that the Hyborian Age never fell, and everyone on Earth became 'conanized' (Thor still looked the same ;) ). Anyhow, It ends with Dr.Strange casting a spell that will alter reality so that the events leading up to Kulan Gath's release never happen. A hole opens up in the space-time continuum, and Nimrod steps through, killing the man who found the 'phylactory' before he ever found it. Thats how Nimrod enter X-Men comics - he was from another reality. Now, my point is, the Elves needed a crib to chill in, so they cast their spell, same as Dr. Strange. It randomly reaches back throught time and seizing on an event and alters it. It causes the Draconic doomsday weapon to mis-fire, creating the Tearfall and all the resulting history since. Plain and simple, see? When in doubt, one should always fall back on comic books for eternal wisdom. :P That was one of my all time favs too! Uncanny X-men 189 to 192 right?:D Evermeet exists in the past , present, and future right. So the Tear fall is the past event, the sundering is the present eveny, and the merging of two worlds the future event. Elves cant do anything right!:rofl: :dancin: :clap: :P Bruce Cordell must be stopped!!!:rant: :banghead: :uh-huh: :bored:
MarkusTay63 10-15-07, 02:24 PM	The sad part is, in the process they changed their own own names as well. :rolleyes: Without Evermeet, Elven history becomes vastly different, and only the Elves that were on Toril from the beginning survived pretty much unscathed (Green and Dark, and perhaps Avariel and maybe Lythari). The other thing I'm thinking is that 'Abeir' may have been a sister world, and thats what the Dracolaser blew up. The biggest piece becomes Evermeet, another chunk creates the sea of Fallen Stars, and the rest just fall into Sylune's Orbit. That means if their was a second MOON, that one probably represents Shar, who was the second combatant hangin' over Chauntea (Abeir-Toril). So with Mystra's energy dispersed, perhaps it undoes the War of LIght and Darkness as well? With all the arcane energy going back to Selune, and the Shadow energy going back into Shar, the Cosmos would then be restored to it's original balance. Hmmm... didn't Shar destroy the first sun during that war as well? I'm going to have to go and look that up now. :cool:
18DELTA 10-15-07, 04:17 PM	So who turn the planet in to the FR version of the "Death star"?:D :rofl: :dancin: :cheer: WotC must be stopped!!!:rant: :banghead: :nonono: :uh-huh: :bored: :rofl:
Fabius Maximus 10-15-07, 05:34 PM	Markus, that scenario makes even less sense. How would the elves know of an event (the "dracolaser") that happens in the future? Unless some elf build a time machine to travel back in time... Oh boy. As I said: Star Trek. Not good.
Lord Karsus 10-15-07, 07:28 PM	The sad part is, in the process they changed their own own names as well. :rolleyes: Without Evermeet, Elven history becomes vastly different, and only the Elves that were on Toril from the beginning survived pretty much unscathed (Green and Dark, and perhaps Avariel and maybe Lythari). -All of the current Elven subraces existed on Toril before the creation of Evermeet, except maybe the Star Elves. They have little in racial history, as we all know.
18DELTA 10-15-07, 07:33 PM	-All of the current Elven subraces existed on Toril before the creation of Evermeet, except maybe the Star Elves. They have little in racial history, as we all know. So Lord Karsus are you saying that the Star Elves may be from space???
Lord Karsus 10-15-07, 11:19 PM	So Lord Karsus are you saying that the Star Elves may be from space??? -Officially, they could be. WotC has said nothing on their origins, other than what is in Unapproachable East, which is vague at best. In Elves of Faerūn, me and other Realmslore Scholars who are helping me have tossed around some other 'possible' origins.
18DELTA 10-15-07, 11:28 PM	-Officially, they could be. WotC has said nothing on their origins, other than what is in Unapproachable East, which is vague at best. In Elves of Faerūn, me and other Realmslore Scholars who are helping me have tossed around some other 'possible' origins. Thanks I will check out Elves of Faerun. I have the east book, pretty good IMHO. Had never heard of Star Elves before that book. Were they ever mentioned before that book?
Lord Karsus 10-15-07, 11:33 PM	Thanks I will check out Elves of Faerun. I have the east book, pretty good IMHO. Had never heard of Star Elves before that book. Were they ever mentioned before that book? -In name, yes, in actuality, no. A Star Elf appeared in the novel Windwalker, but wasn't ever actually called a Star Elf, since Unapproachable East hadn't been released yet. But, they were created specifically for that book (UE). Since then, a little more lore has been published on them, but, for the most part, everything about Star Elves can be found in UE.
18DELTA 10-15-07, 11:46 PM	-In name, yes, in actuality, no. A Star Elf appeared in the novel Windwalker, but wasn't ever actually called a Star Elf, since Unapproachable East hadn't been released yet. But, they were created specifically for that book (UE). Since then, a little more lore has been published on them, but, for the most part, everything about Star Elves can be found in UE. Cool! I started looking at the Elven Netbook WOW! I gots some reading to do.:D
Iakhovas 10-15-07, 11:54 PM	Also, a star elf appears in the novel Darkvision and is the main character in the novel Stardeep.
Iakhovas 10-15-07, 11:59 PM	I hate to spoil some fantastically creative hypothesis but the use of Abeir-Toril or Toril in the Grand History was random and should not be taken to indicate a greater meaning one way or another. I'm one of them old-school designers that simply uses the terms interchangeably.
Lord Karsus 10-16-07, 12:01 AM	Also, a star elf appears in the novel Darkvision and is the main character in the novel Stardeep. -Stardeep, Darkvision, Windwalker, The Last Mythal Trilogy, and the adventure 'Twilight Tomb' are the other sources, asides for UE. I'm one of them old-school designers that simply uses the terms interchangeably. -As am I. I try to always fully write out Abeir-Toril in Elves of Faerūn.Truthfully, I never fully understood all of the commotion people were making about this.
Lord Karsus 10-16-07, 12:03 AM	Cool! I started looking at the Elven Netbook WOW! I gots some reading to do.:D -Well, have fun. :)
Reneshat 10-16-07, 12:56 AM	I hate to spoil some fantastically creative hypothesis but the use of Abeir-Toril or Toril in the Grand History was random and should not be taken to indicate a greater meaning one way or another. I'm one of them old-school designers that simply uses the terms interchangeably. Well darn. Here I was hoping I had found something. Now I just feel more stupid than I normally do when talking about the Realms.:(
MarkusTay63 10-16-07, 03:46 AM	Markus, that scenario makes even less sense. How would the elves know of an event (the "dracolaser") that happens in the future?They would not need to know of the event - the spell takes care of that part. (just like Dr. Strange had no idea what happened after he cast his spell; he just knew something had 'changed'). And it specifically says that the Spell reached backwards and forwards in time... -All of the current Elven subraces existed on Toril before the creation of Evermeet, except maybe the Star Elves. They have little in racial history, as we all know.Past tense - it's a brave new world. ;) They need a canon reason for changing the canon names, and that could only mean messing with the past somehow. Gold and Moon Elves WILL become Eladrin in 4e, so the RSE that is caused by the Spellplague must have it's roots in the ancient past and involve the Elves... heavily. I hate to spoil some fantastically creative hypothesis but the use of Abeir-Toril or Toril in the Grand History was random and should not be taken to indicate a greater meaning one way or another. I'm one of them old-school designers that simply uses the terms interchangeably.Spoil sport. :P It does seem a bit odd that only the entries before a certain date contain the full name. Happenstance, or Freudian slip? Also the stories concerning the Tearfall and the Sunderinmg are only one page apart in the GHotR. Since I just read the vingettes the first time through, they almost appear to be a story unto themselves, about all the 'What-ifs' in FR's history - all those crucial turning points that affected so much of the world. Its like the butterfly effect - just change one teensy tiny thing in the past, and suddenly it's a whole new world. Oh, and the 'Abeir' stuff is because at least three times in the past year or so people 'in the know' have mentioned that we will be finding out why folks stopped using the prefix 'Abier' in front of Toril. So Brian, does this mean there's nothing to that, or does it mean that you yourself are not privy to all the details of 4e FR?
Ebrion 10-16-07, 04:32 AM	Wow, this thread is like the X Files being mixed with Quantum Leap and FR. Just awesome.
Reneshat 10-16-07, 04:52 AM	Wow, this thread is like the X Files being mixed with Quantum Leap and FR. Just awesome. At this point I'm just hoping that whatever the answers actually wind up being, they are anywhere close to as interesting as some of the theories being thrown around.
Stigger 10-16-07, 07:23 AM	Hmmm... the whole temporal thing does sound very much on the far fetched side of things. Kinda that whole "you can't kill your grandfather because you didn't" side of things, despite the conventions of Sci-Fi... at best it seems it would cause a temporal 'loop' or divergence, one that the general populace would remain largely ignorant of, since it would probably seem to be something that always was to them. So, that's the logic I'm going to be using to completely ignore 4e more than likely... ;)
Fabius Maximus 10-16-07, 08:57 AM	I hate to spoil some fantastically creative hypothesis but the use of Abeir-Toril or Toril in the Grand History was random and should not be taken to indicate a greater meaning one way or another. I'm one of them old-school designers that simply uses the terms interchangeably. That doesn't remedy the fact that the sidebar about the dracolaser is quite confusing.
Iakhovas 10-16-07, 09:32 AM	So Brian, does this mean there's nothing to that, or does it mean that you yourself are not privy to all the details of 4e FR?I am soooo out of the loop on this one, and glad my name is not attached to this Abeir vs Toril business. Many of you already know I'm not happy about the current dating of the Sundering and frankly I've never been a fan of temporal anomalies in the Forgotten Realms. I prefer a simple easy to understand timeline thank you very much.
18DELTA 10-16-07, 10:57 AM	What a buzz kill!!!;) :P :D I was thinking of that movie "The Butterfly Effect" meets the Realms = 4E!:D
MarkusTay63 10-16-07, 12:04 PM	What a buzz kill!!!;) :P :D I was thinking of that movie "The Butterfly Effect" meets the Realms = 4E!:DIn the Realms, scholars refer to it as the 'Faerie Dragon Effect'. ;) @Brian - you must of hated my piece in the CK Compendium then. I'm not much of a fan of that sort of thing myself, but I could think of no other reason why two people that hated each other for centuries had at some point gotten together and formed a huge expedition to colonize a region that they should have had no idea existed. Two caveats - Umberleee's Fist (the time portal) is already established in canon, and I worked VERY hard making sure if you piece together the clues the armada set sail during a certain year. :D Anyhow, we both put a lot of effort into getting people more interested in sailing west, and it appears that there is a good chance that Maztica won't even be there in 4e. :( Another interesting (to me, anyway) note is that there is a tiny island of Lurath in the Sea of Fallen Stars - the island is nothing more then a huge crater, and inside is trapped a small 'piece of time'. The entire interior of the crater is actually located some 30,000 years in the past, right around the time of the Tearfall. If the designers use this somehow, it would be interesting to note that this is the precise spot where the 'Tear fell', and that the inside of the crater always remains at the exact point of time of the divergence. It could be use as an anchor of sorts, linking the past of the two divergent realities.
Stigger 10-16-07, 02:52 PM	Still seems a far fetched idea that you could merge two seperate histories via a temporal anamoly... planar anamoly I could see, but not time.
Lord Karsus 10-16-07, 03:32 PM	Past tense - it's a brave new world. ;) They need a canon reason for changing the canon names, and that could only mean messing with the past somehow. Gold and Moon Elves WILL become Eladrin in 4e, so the RSE that is caused by the Spellplague must have it's roots in the ancient past and involve the Elves... heavily. -Sorry, MT, but I'm not sold on that, nor am I going to be convinced by one of your crazy conspiracy theories (:P). Until I physically see it in the 4e FRCS... Many of you already know I'm not happy about the current dating of the Sundering and frankly I've never been a fan of temporal anomalies in the Forgotten Realms. -Don't worry, Brian. I've got your back. The establishment will never convince us, and in turn, we'll influence our disciples...We'll win yet.
Alediran 10-16-07, 04:03 PM	-Don't worry, Brian. I've got your back. The establishment will never convince us, and in turn, we'll influence our disciples...We'll win yet. To Victory!!!! (and her big bosom :D )
18DELTA 10-16-07, 05:08 PM	To Victory!!!! (and her big bosom :D ) Her big bosom!!! Where do I sign up?:D
Stigger 10-16-07, 06:31 PM	That was kinda the thought that passed through my mind as well... :D
Lord Karsus 10-16-07, 07:55 PM	-Give me your souls, and there will be bosoms aplenty.
18DELTA 10-16-07, 08:16 PM	-Give me your souls, and there will be bosoms aplenty. Do I sign in blood or in ink, My Lord!!!:D
MarkusTay63 10-16-07, 08:30 PM	Don't listen to him, you will lose your souls for no reason. :coolcthul He is powerless before the unstoppable juggernaught that is 4e. :eek: And besides, Chris Baker (he who must be stopped :P ) has already said they have NO intention of back-peddling, which means everything they have revealed so far WILL BE in the new edition... including the new Eladrin Elves. Nothing you can say or do will make them change their minds about that - the most we can hope for at this point is to influence their decisions regarding details that haven't been revealed, which is quite a bit, really. If anything can be gained by all these threads, is that it will help them come up with some good stuff for the Spellplague. So far it appears to be nothing more then a self-serving uncreative plot device to act as the delivery vehicle for a new edition. Nothing like a little impetus to get the creative juices flowing. ;)
18DELTA 10-16-07, 08:37 PM	Chris Cordell Wyatt Baker must br stopped!!!!!!!!:D :rofl: You MarkusTay63 Make my day when I read your crazy:censored: posts!;) :P
Lord Karsus 10-16-07, 10:44 PM	Don't listen to him, you will lose your souls for no reason. :coolcthul He is powerless before the unstoppable juggernaught that is 4e. :eek: -Don't listen to him. He's crazy...:looloo:
MarkusTay63 10-16-07, 11:39 PM	Crazy yes, but relatively harmless... Unlike a certain egotistical archmage that dropped a hundred cities and millions of people out of the skies. :P
18DELTA 10-16-07, 11:48 PM	Crazy yes, but relatively harmless... Unlike a certain egotistical archmage that dropped a hundred cities and millions of people out of the skies. :P Well if millions of bosoms were to fall from the sky, well that would be worth my little old soul right?:D :rofl: :bounce: :bow: That made no sense what so ever huh!;) Kinda like the changes that WotC is making to the Realms right?:P
Lord Karsus 10-17-07, 12:33 AM	Well if millions of bosoms were to fall from the sky, well that would be worth my little old soul right?:D -Yes...Yes...Remember, I made it rain boobs once, and I can do it again...:plotting:
18DELTA 10-17-07, 12:40 AM	-Yes...Yes...Remember, I made it rain boobs once, and I can do it again...:plotting: The boobies are falling like rain, the boobies are falling like rain!:D Lord Karsus you o mighty Archwizard are awesome!:cool: I am laughing so hard my tummy hurts!!! You guys rock!:)
Stigger 10-17-07, 01:03 AM	*snickers* Seriously though, I fear Markus is correct about the changes being irreversible at this point, and I for one am going to be bidding official products farewell in the near future if this proves to be the case...
Lord Karsus 10-17-07, 10:33 AM	*snickers* Seriously though, I fear Markus is correct about the changes being irreversible at this point, and I for one am going to be bidding official products farewell in the near future if this proves to be the case... -I am more optamistic. It is my belief that, although there will only be 'Wood Elves' 'Dark Elves' and 'Eladrin' in official D&D as races, the Realms will retain the menagerie of subraces that we already have. Sure, a Sun Elf may use the stats of one of the other three, but they will still be Sun Elves. Stats change, but lore doesn't.
Bluenose 10-17-07, 11:10 AM	-I am more optamistic. It is my belief that, although there will only be 'Wood Elves' 'Dark Elves' and 'Eladrin' in official D&D as races, the Realms will retain the menagerie of subraces that we already have. Sure, a Sun Elf may use the stats of one of the other three, but they will still be Sun Elves. Stats change, but lore doesn't. Personally I'm delighted, I always despised the mechanical differences between subraces - it encouraged people to pick a subrace to suit the class they were playing rather than select a character then work out the mechanics. It's perhaps also worth pointing out that what appears in the PHB is only the basics, all the previous versions only had one elf and there were still gold/silver/green/dark elves in FR, and other types depending on your setting. I would not be surprised to see "sun elf" and "moon elf" talent trees appearing in the 4E FRCG, and probably Aerenal/Valenar ones for Eberron. I'd hope those would reflect cultural differences better than giving +2 Int or +2 Dex.
Lord Karsus 10-17-07, 11:16 AM	Personally I'm delighted, I always despised the mechanical differences between subraces - it encouraged people to pick a subrace to suit the class they were playing rather than select a character then work out the mechanics. -That's an indication of a poor player, and has nothing to do with the subrace itself. -Personally, I don't like what they are proposing for two reasons. Firstly, Sun Elves, Moon Elves, and so on, already exist. You just can't retcon everything. Secondly, just like all Human ethnicities/races are slightly different, all Elves are slightly different too.
MarkusTay63 10-17-07, 03:24 PM	Personally I'm delighted, I always despised the mechanical differences between subraces - it encouraged people to pick a subrace to suit the class they were playing rather than select a character then work out the mechanics.I for one agree with you. If Human races and gender were given modifiers, there would be an outcry from the gaming community and others about racial descrimination. Why is it Okay for ALL fantasy creatures? Sure, there's bound to be a difference in some, like Giants, but most are just cosmetic differences or cultural outlook. They plan on giving us racial modifiers as we level, along with the normal class ones. Think about how much fun that might be - it could work just like the levels they did with monster classes started back in Savage Species. All Elves start out the same (with the -2 to Con), but then at level 2 Gold Elves get a +1 to Int, and another point at lev 3. Moon Elves would get the same adjustments to Dex. Wild Elves would get bonuses over tiime to both Con and Dex, etc. Thats really basic, but with a system of evolving abilities, we do away with the need for 'sub-races'. Sure, Flavor-wise nothing would change, but I love the idea that a player will continue to reap benefits from his racial choices all throughout his progression. Even regional feats could be rolled into this system. If done correctly (big 'if' there), it could be an amazing innovation. Like I keep saying, I'm a big fan of the new rules - they sound much like things I have considered with my own games, but never had the time or inclination to fully work out. You can see that, right LK? They're not changing the different groups, just the way the mechanics are applied to them.
Stigger 10-17-07, 04:26 PM	I dunno... depends on whether the gold elves are suddenly eladrin or not... personally, I adore the eladrin race from the planes, and if that's an indication that they're planning on eliminating them in favor of some... well, that's a rant coming on about some of the planar stuff I've read about for 4e, but suffice to say, that the planar developments alone are almost enough to make me discout 4e out of hand. If they can do that for core, and leave the old elven subraces intact "lorewise", then I don't really have a problem on that point. But as much as I'd like to ascribe to LK's view that it couldn't be retconned, I'm more of the mind that the lore will suddenly be invalidated and much of the previous lore almost useless for anything other than historical reference. And they even have an RSE where pretty much any change they make is justifiable with the whole 'merging of two worlds' storyline possibilities. Kinda like saying the Realms you know and love isn't the actual Realms, and it was just a dream that we're waking you up from, but we'll humor you and keep a few details just to ease the shock of it... I would hope that they don't, but I wouldn't put it past them at this point.
Lord Karsus 10-17-07, 11:52 PM	If Human races and gender were given modifiers, there would be an outcry from the gaming community and others about racial descrimination. Why is it Okay for ALL fantasy creatures? -Me and a friend did that once. It wasn't politically correct, but it sure was funny. You can see that, right LK? -Uh, I guess, but I still don't agree with it.
Stigger 10-18-07, 06:12 AM	Not sure how mechanical changes don't equate to lore changes... form following function, vice versa and all that...
MarkusTay63 10-18-07, 12:03 PM	No, they would have to change the Lore (for the Eladrin, at least) I won't - I see no need to. They need to give us an IG reason for the changes; I don't need any such crutch where my players are concerned. Why do you have to explain why Gold Elves behave and act different at higher levels then Wood Elves? Shouldn't they do that anyway? Mechanics shouldn't have to effect that. A story is a story, and FR was a story first. I can wrap any rules system around a good story. I'm still waiting to see how they handle the name/lore changes to the Elves, but as far as the new mechanics go, I think they are a better fit then the old system (you start out slightly different, and then everyone is pretty much the same after that). The way the rules stand, a human Ranger is just as good at wood lore as a Wood Elf - that just shouldn't be. A Wood Elf should be a nigh-unstoppable force within his own forest. Just as humans should excel at being Knights - look at all the discussion we have here about Elven Paladins. Sure, and Elf can try to be a Paladin, but a human should excel at it. The fact that race does not matter after level 1 has been a big problem for me since 1e. Fantasy Races give the game flavor, so why not let them retain that flavor throughout their progression? If anything, it strengthens the whole 'subrace' phenomena, without actually calling them seperate races. Regional Feats and Racial levels is an excellent way of individualizing the various Elven Cultures, along with most others. 4e seems to want to move away from the overly 'humanized' non-human races, and thats something I can get onboard for.
Stigger 10-19-07, 01:03 AM	Interesting take. Never really felt that way about most of the races, but then again, I tend to houserule a lot of stuff without thinking about it (lowered DCs or automatic crap for certain races in certain situations), so I can actually see your point thinking about it.
18DELTA 11-02-07, 04:21 AM	Read Star Deep and you will find out that it will truly be Abeir vs. Toril! The aboleths are coming!!!:coolcthul :coolcthul :88E: :88E: :coolcthul :coolcthul
MarkusTay63 11-02-07, 11:14 AM	To tell you the truth, the Aboleths have always been my least favorite critter. Even with other races I don't care for I still assume a place for them somewhere in my world. But no world I ever ran had Aboleths living on it. The Illithids are scarey - but Giant Catfish with too many eyes and delusions of grandeur are just silly to me. In fact, the Aboleth encounter in WotSQ (notice, another novel set after they knew about 4e) is where I lost interest in the series. You just cast a permanent polymorph on someone to 'fix' them? What the hell? And the name of their minions - Skum?! How juvenile can you get. When does Shredder and his Foot Soldiers show up? :rolleyes: You know, I liked the Far Realms. I liked how they were handled (just a few unsure references), and I liked how they were placed ('outside' of everything else). Now we are getting that dumped directly into the setting? The designers need to study the word 'cool' - things only remain 'cool' when very few people have or encounter them. When they become 'mundane', then they become 'uncool'. Like what the 80's did to male earings. :yuck: They're are turning Cthulhu into the "monster under the bed". :nonono:
Gelcur 11-02-07, 12:27 PM	So crazy idea. Maybe this is how/where/when Ed split his home campaign from the rest of canon. ;) If I were a DM and I knew my campaign would go out and be transformed from what my players knew it as I'd create a logical in game reasoning for it. Maybe it is still Abeir-Toril for his players? Or just Abeir? Just a thought all these theories are very cool. I'm with Brian though I nice straight timeline is much less of a headache to manage and causes storyline nightmares all to often.
18DELTA 11-02-07, 12:48 PM	It has been called the terrible beginning of the new! They are coming!!!:rolleyes: The aboleths must be stopped!!!:P :rofl: Now if only I could get a rofl :coolcthul