Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mad Mage 02-14-07, 03:41 PM	I was curious about this manual. Does it cover these subjects at all? 1) The history of the giants in the Forgotten Realms. 2) Faerunian mythology of Giants (ie: stories about the Giant Pantheon). 3) Info about the Giant Pantheon itself (in any way like either the 2nd Edition Realms deity manual trilogy or the 2nd Edition core D&D Monster Mythology).
The Heretic 02-14-07, 04:26 PM	I found it to be a rather bizarre supplement. It starts by tossing out the alignment system. Then proceeds to replace the alignment system with a cannibalized version of Egyptian morality: Ma'at. They didn't even name it something different. Sadly, this is somewhat typical of FR monster products in 2E. Check out the section on Tharran Ogres in Elminster's Ecologies.
MarkusTay63 02-14-07, 04:34 PM	It actually appears to be a generic supplement shoe-horned into FR, just like the novels seemed to be. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the novels VERY much, but they had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the Forgotten Realms. It's interesting, but unfortunately what few rules there are are choppy and not fleshed out (rune magic). There is some history that ties it to the Realms (the Great Glacier), so for fluff purposes it's okay. I used it to run a Firbolg character in 2e, and gave my DM more headaches then it was worth.
Mirtek 02-14-07, 05:26 PM	Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the novels VERY much, but they had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the Forgotten Realms. Why do you think that (talking about the Twillight Giants Trilogy, right?)? The areas touched by this novels are just as much part of the FR as the Moonshaes. Disclaimer: Not meant as a novel dicusion, but as a game world related discussion.
Mad Mage 02-14-07, 07:43 PM	Okay, what about the the subjects I mentioned? Are those mentioned at all?
MarkusTay63 02-15-07, 12:40 AM	Lots of history, thats pretty much all it's good for, but the history is self-contained. Except for the part about creating the Great Glacier, you could pretty much plunk the history of Ostoria down anywhere. Why do you think that (talking about the Twillight Giants Trilogy, right?)? The areas touched by this novels are just as much part of the FR as the Moonshaes.That was a PERFECT comparison. :D You do know that the Moonshaes were originally designed for a DIFFERENT game system? And TSR, being desperate to release ANYTHING with their new setting, purchased it whole and literally just drew the Moonshaes in on the map at the last minute! Thats why the original series doesn't even sound like its set in the Realms. The second series was almost like a 'fix' for the first series to make it fit better. You can take those Giant novels, as well written as they are, and set them on ANY world you like, you won't need to change a thing. Have you EVER heard of anyone mention Hartsvale anywhere in the Realms? They don't even know it exists, it says so in both the novels AND the sourcebook. The first time it appeared on ANY official Realms map (aside from the tiny un-detailed map in the book) was in Silver Marches, ten years AFTER Giantcraft came out.
MerrikCale 02-15-07, 07:01 PM	You do know that the Moonshaes were originally designed for a DIFFERENT game system? And TSR, being desperate to release ANYTHING with their new setting, which is also why the bloodstone land modules were jammed into the setting mid way thru their run
Mad Mage 02-15-07, 09:42 PM	Lots of history, thats pretty much all it's good for, but the history is self-contained. Except for the part about creating the Great Glacier, you could pretty much plunk the history of Ostoria down anywhere. Okay, anything about the Giant Pantheon itself? Avatar stats? Anything like that? :confused: Pardon if I seem like I'm pesky, but I couldn't find a straight answer in the quoted reply of yours.
MarkusTay63 02-15-07, 11:17 PM	By not mentioning it I meant NO, there was NOTHING about the giant Gods. Everything I said is pretty much everything in the books. You can find out how different giants relate with each other, how they dress, what they eat, fun games they play, giant dances (yes, I said dances) and all that other nifty knowledge, but almost nothing you can actually apply in an adventure. Only three 'gods' are mentioned, in their creation myth. Annam, the father of all giants and apparantly an interloper, Othea his wife who was also a mountain range (not sure why he found her attractive) native to Toril, and Ulutiu, who was hittin' Othea behind Annam's back. Ulutiu is described in that source as a 'minor sea god', but according to The Great Glacier he was just an uber-powerful mortal (who may have been a planar interloper himself). The icing on the cake is that they name each of their sons, who created the giant races, and none of the names match those in Monster Mythology. In that work Annam is named as the father of all giants, but the rest of the stories are completely different. MM uses the established Giant pantheon, whereas Giantcraft fabricates an entirely new one. In fact, the sons of Annam are not even considered gods in that book. The only other god briefly mentioned is Vaprak, whom Othea also hooked up with and gave birth to the Ogres by him. The stuff is mildly interesting, but after I read through the first time I never cracked the covers again. Also, all of that was covered in the creation myth, so their was very little details. I hope that was somewhat more helpful. I hate being 'pushed' into something, even when asked nicely. ;) Peace --- Mark
GothicDan 02-16-07, 08:12 AM	That sounds so bad...
BrennonGoldeye 02-16-07, 10:29 AM	It's very very bad.:)
Mirtek 02-16-07, 10:50 AM	Have you EVER heard of anyone mention Hartsvale anywhere in the Realms? Thisn thief guy (forgot his name) played a part in Prince of Lies and Crucible and became Mask's seraph of thieves (after a brief career as Kelemvor's seraph of death) :D
Galad 02-16-07, 02:53 PM	Thisn thief guy (forgot his name) played a part in Prince of Lies and Crucible and became Mask's seraph of thieves (after a brief career as Kelemvor's seraph of death) :D Avner of Hartsvale.
Galad 02-16-07, 03:00 PM	Only three 'gods' are mentioned, in their creation myth. Annam, the father of all giants and apparantly an interloper, Othea his wife who was also a mountain range (not sure why he found her attractive) native to Toril, and Ulutiu, who was hittin' Othea behind Annam's back. Ulutiu is described in that source as a 'minor sea god', but according to The Great Glacier he was just an uber-powerful mortal (who may have been a planar interloper himself). The icing on the cake is that they name each of their sons, who created the giant races, and none of the names match those in Monster Mythology. In that work Annam is named as the father of all giants, but the rest of the stories are completely different. MM uses the established Giant pantheon, whereas Giantcraft fabricates an entirely new one. In fact, the sons of Annam are not even considered gods in that book. Peace --- Mark I believe the children of Annam and Othea were not gods but the first giants of each race on Faerun, the paragon of each race. Annam's godly children must have come from another, more powerful goddess. Don't quote me on this but it was the way I always thought it worked.
MarkusTay63 02-16-07, 04:18 PM	Okay, I found one line in Monster Mythology thats supports what you say - "Anam is a polymorphous, libidinous god and he flees the prime material to escape the wrath and nagging of his many wives and concubines" So, in a way, he sleeps with a DIFFERENT local goddess on each world, fathering a DIFFERENT set of giants. Talk about making the SAME mistakes over and over again. :rolleye2: The 'fathers' of his mortal children are then really non-devine immortals themselves, as it says in Giantcraft, and the various Giant gods are his children by planar powers, rather then local. makes a twisted kind of sense, if you have need of making both the tree and the wheel work together. So Ruk was the patriarch of the Hill giants, Obadai the Stone Giants, Ottar the Frost Giants, Masud the Fire Giants, Nicias the Cloud Giants, Vilmos the Storm Giants, Dunmore the Voadkyn, Lanaxis the Titans, and Arno/Julian the Ettins. Hmmm... going through the book as I type and they do name some other giant deities, mostly Toril-specific. Strangely, the author names Skoreus and a few others as the gods of respective tribes, even though it was stated earlier that his OTHER sons were immortal. These Giant Gods were the progeny of Annam and some "Unknown Sky Goddess". Also, Vaprak and Baphomet are listed amongst the giant gods, and the name Obadai sounds a lot like Obad-Hai, the Greyhawk god of Nature! Another thing is that the book states that the giants and dragons warred for thousands of years and nearly wiped each other out, but this 'war' has been down-played in Realms history, with the Elves given prominence fighting the dragons. This could just be because the book is written from a giganto-centric viewpoint. This author seemed VERY confused. The myth concerning the death of Ulutiu causing the Great Glacier is similar to the one in that product, but the one presented in Giantcraft is the one that became canon. So I guess some little good came out of it.
TomCosta 02-16-07, 04:41 PM	I would say contrary to some that the book has information on all three topics you mention. It has the general history of giants in the Realms, mostly told through fragments and myth. It discusses the first of the various giant races (though there are some problems with the exclusion of Surtr and Thrym of the Norse pantheon who were similarly cut from Monster Mythology). It discusses the gods to some extent in shortened 2E F&A style write ups. And it discusses Hartsvale in some detail. That said much of the criticism is probably apt. There is a rushed feel to the presentation of many bits.
MarkusTay63 02-16-07, 05:46 PM	Basically what I said boils down to "Its an interesting read, but don't expect to find anything useful for a game". I stand by that; until this thread I never cracked the covers on that book since I first read through it. I never said it was bad, but unless you are running a Giant Campaign your not going to get a lot of mileage out of it. Also, some of the myths do not mesh well with Realmslore, while others like the one regarding Ulutiu actually BECAME the canon. Put it this way - If you can get your hands on it somehow, it's definatley 'fun' to go through. But if you have to spend money, then you have to ask yourself "How much do I REALLY need to know about giants?" I bought it because I enjoyed the Twilight Giants very much, and wanted to look a little deeper into their culture. For me it was worth it.
Faraer 02-16-07, 06:46 PM	I don't own a copy of this book.
GothicDan 02-16-07, 06:51 PM	And that speaks for itself. ;)
Old Sage 02-16-07, 06:53 PM	Tom's echoed my own thoughts on Giantcraft, so I'll just leave it at that.
Mad Mage 02-16-07, 09:33 PM	Once again I must explain myself: I am an enthusiast of the Realms AND a person who likes to possibly stat some things, particularly 3.5 Edition versions of deities, especially those who weren't statted in Faiths & Pantheons, AND I AM NOT A P&P GAMER. In particular, I've been hoping to focus on the Giant Pantheon in Faerun, alongside the Orc Pantheon, and at least Maglubiyet & Hruggek. In this case, I'm hoping to glean enough light on the Giant Pantheon to get the clearest picture possible. While I do have Monster Mythology, I'm still hoping to get as much of a Realmsian perspective of Annam & company as possible, hence this thread.
MarkusTay63 02-17-07, 03:19 PM	IN THAT light, then the book would prove useful to you. Now that you brought it to my attention I will probably read it through again. Since you are not a gamer, and this book is all fluff, it would suit your needs perfectly. You may even wish to stat out Annam's children, the patriarches of the giant races, as demi-gods, or at least DvR 0. They were all immortal, like the old style Elves, but could be killed by accident or violence. I'm not sure if it says so in the book, but I believe they all died during the 'War of the Hart'. It specifically states that with each successive generation, the Giants lose more of their immortality, so that is where their current age limitations come from. Also, you can write-up the 'Twilight Spirit'; I believe the novels got into who that really was, but the sourcebook leaves it vague.
Gray Richardson 02-17-07, 06:12 PM	I don't know why people are knocking Giantcraft so much. I own the book and I love the book. There's a ton of fun material in there. A lot of cool history. A lot about the giant gods. So many little bits of lore have caught my imagination that I have found useful. I would say just get the book (you can download it from Paizo for about 4 bucks I think) and decide for yourself. I think it might just be exactly what you are looking for Mad Mage. It will certainly give you some new perspectives on giants in the Realms.
Galad 02-17-07, 06:14 PM	IN THAT light, then the book would prove useful to you. Now that you brought it to my attention I will probably read it through again. Since you are not a gamer, and this book is all fluff, it would suit your needs perfectly. You may even wish to stat out Annam's children, the patriarches of the giant races, as demi-gods, or at least DvR 0. They were all immortal, like the old style Elves, but could be killed by accident or violence. I'm not sure if it says so in the book, but I believe they all died during the 'War of the Hart'. It specifically states that we each successive generation, the Giants lose more of their immortality, so that is where their current age limitations come from. Also, you can write-up the 'Twilight Spirit'; I believe the novels got into who that really was, but the sourcebook leaves it vague. Actually if I remember correctly all the children of Annam were poisoned in The Twilight Spirit's attempt to kill Othea. All of them were killed except Arno/Julien, the ettin. Then Arno/Julien and the Twilight Spirit were cursed, they could only retain their immortality in the shadow of Othea's body (a mountain). The War of the Hart came after that.
MarkusTay63 02-17-07, 06:32 PM	Actually if I remember correctly all the children of Annam were poisoned in The Twilight Spirit's attempt to kill Othea. All of them were killed except Arno/Julien, the ettin. Then Arno/Julien and the Twilight Spirit were cursed, they could only retain their immortality in the shadow of Othea's body (a mountain). The War of the Hart came after that.Yes, I believe you are right, except the Titan (lanaxis) also survived. Twilight Giants Spoiler alert - Was he the twilight Spirit in the novel? The sourcebook doesn't say that, and its been a long time since I read the series. @Gray - Originally, I thought he was asking if there was anything in the product useful to running an adventure, which there really is not. However, since he clearly wants it just for fluff I have since changed my decision as to its worth. For someone like YOU, who is all about lore, the product is perfect. For someone like me who wants a mix of crunch and fluff it was somewhat lacking. We must remember, different people buy these products for different reasons, and I certainly would not recomend this to a 16 yr old who wants to send his players against a bunch of giants. The Monster manual is more then adequate for that. Different strokes for different folks
Galad 02-19-07, 06:24 PM	Yes, I believe you are right, except the Titan (lanaxis) also survived. Twilight Giants Spoiler alert - Was he the twilight Spirit in the novel? The sourcebook doesn't say that, and its been a long time since I read the series. Yes, they are one and the same.
Mad Mage 02-20-07, 01:21 AM	I don't know why people are knocking Giantcraft so much. I own the book and I love the book. There's a ton of fun material in there. A lot of cool history. A lot about the giant gods. So many little bits of lore have caught my imagination that I have found useful. I would say just get the book (you can download it from Paizo for about 4 bucks I think) and decide for yourself. I think it might just be exactly what you are looking for Mad Mage. It will certainly give you some new perspectives on giants in the Realms. Okay, Gray, I guess I will still get the book. Thanks. :)
Paix 02-20-07, 07:45 PM	I can reinforce the positive comments the book has attracted. I found it interesting and it covers all three areas you are interested in. The maat system I found fitting to that race irrespective of its egyptian mythos origins. It also has plenty of details on the Ice Spires and their environs.