Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Suncapcd 12-14-06, 06:08 PM	I wanted to post and seriously ask the GMs and experienced players of this board as to what they thought and what they have done in their games when the character level exceeded 18th. It seems to me, that if a DM really plays his NPCs like reasonably intelligent and competent NPCs, that there would be constant loss by the PCs. To reasonably advance at anything more than a snails pace, you have to fight comparable or greater level/cr npcs. So you fight the wizard. He cast Mord. Disjunction. There goes your gear and any contingencys. When you fight equal level npc parties, you have a good chance of someone dying. In that case, you lose 25k per death rezzing them back. Each encounter wont make you 25k so you are in a negative gain. I personally love the 8th and 9th lv spells and such but how do you survive to actively get to use them. At some point you are going to lose initiative and a competent GM is going to get nasty. You WILL miss a save and you will die. I know there are high level games being played...how do you do it?
Ramenth 12-14-06, 09:39 PM	Well; for one thing I tend to make Mord's Dis not a permanent effect on items. Other than that, it really depends on the group. Generally, if a wizard was trying to dispell my group's protections, our groups wizard would be trying to counter the spell.
Rude 12-15-06, 01:37 AM	We don't use Mord's Disjunction first off. Second, I was DMing a game that went to 23rd level that still isn't done. The only noticable difference in the game itself was the time it took for combat to progress. At that level it look literally an hour of game time for 1 round to pass due to the massive amount of spells and options for these high level guys. Don't be afraid of high level play. It does rule when you and your players are throwing high level spells around
ClobberinTime 12-18-06, 03:26 PM	High level play might take a longer amount of time to move through a round, but there certainly are alot fewer of them. Personally I like it better, sometimes those endless low/mid level duels that drag on round after round can get pretty boring. 1, Round 1, mage moves casts spell, fighter charges mage. 2, Round 2, mage moves casts spell, fighter charges mage on and on. also If you play with the RAW, there are certain things one abosolutely needs to do: 1, A ring of counterspells can take out dispel magic and I believe Mords Disjunction as well. 2, The contingent spell feat 3, and something like Dispelling buffer for mages.
SlanderPanic 07-20-07, 05:25 PM	Mordenkainen's disjunction is one of those spells that should never have been, and here's why: *It's guaranteed to bruise player feelings as they lose their hard-earned gear and carefully-layered buffs. It's really the kind of tactic you only use against your players once, to let them know you're playing hardball. Afterwards, they're bound to be careful simply because they fear getting hit with it again. *PCs generally don't use it because they don't want to destroy valuable loot, especially if they're trying to gear back up after suffering a disjunction themselves. This makes it a very one-sided strategy unless you're dealing with greedy opponents. Remember, most NPCs care about treasure as much as PCs do. I prefer, personally, to houserule Modenkainen's disjunction to suppress items for several minutes or even hours, rather than destroying them utterly. It has the same effect on the combat, without angering your players, and it also makes it a more viable tactic for the PCs.
Faraer 07-20-07, 07:05 PM	To reasonably advance at anything more than a snails pace, you have to fight comparable or greater level/cr npcs.-- Advancement should be slow at those levels. Such characters have specific political and personal goals, and have better things to worry about than the level treadmill. -- In the Realms, high-level adventurous characters -- live ones -- don't carelessly risk themselves in even battles as they did when they were young and reckless. They intrigue and counter-intrigue, and try to anticipate and outplan their major foes. Those who survive and prosper do so through wit, knowledge, teamwork or minions, and allies. -- XP come from other things than fighting. See Power of Faerûn for inspiration. Mordenkainen's disjunction is a rare spell in the Realms (see Forgotten Realms Adventures p. 153), 'rare' meaning not in common usage, such that only 10% of spells encountered are rare. See also Volo's Guide to All Things Magical p. 109. Based on setting considerations, it should only be known by a minority of archmages with Art enough to cast it. Based on DMing considerations, it should only be known by archmages you as DM want to be able to disjoin the PCs' magic items. Everything is not freely available to everyone! If you wanted, you could easily rule that Mordenkainen's disjunction is known only to Mordenkainen himself and close associates such as Bigby. And there's no spell in the Realms that can't be countered by another magic cast in the right way at the right time.
Link182 07-20-07, 07:07 PM	We house ruled and banned that spell but I like the suppression thing. I agree that spell does nothing but impact the game negatively for players. Magic items aren't suppose to "be your character" but with the abillity to upgrade items, PCs will hang on to swords and whatnot they've gotten at the earliest levels. As a DM, I'd never take that away from my players. Of course, there are those times when the magic loot gets away from you as a DM and you wish you could trim the players down, but MD seems a bit rough. Even if they can make a bunch of saves
SlanderPanic 07-20-07, 08:22 PM	I'm of the mindset that magic items can add as much to the story as any other element of the game. Think of how much flavor Sting and its kin added to The Hobbit and to Lord of the Rings. Remember Wulfgar and Aegis-fang or Cattie-brie and Taulmaril. Remember Jayne and Vera. I'll grant that, most of the time, a +2 short sword isn't very flavorful and doesn't really deserve a name. What if it's part of a plot? What if it's the most prized possession of a delusional rogue who tried to kill your character in the night way back when he was just fifth level? What if that rogue spoke to it constantly and gave it a name? For sentimental value alone, a PC might choose to keep a weapon that would, otherwise, be just another generic sword. He'd be pretty upset when it got disjoined. In short, items don't make a character, but they certainly can add flavor. I'm glad you folks liked my suppression suggestion. I'd suggest sticking with hours, rather than minutes. It frustrates the PCs more, but it better reflects the mighty power of the spell. 1d4 of either should be plenty.
Paix 07-20-07, 09:30 PM	Since we use a very low pace of advancement (similar to 2e or perhaps slower), it takes a very long time to reach those levels. I agree with Faraer, that certain spells are rare or very rare for a reason. One would have to meet a very accomplished archmage to be able to cast that spell. My DM allows it and we would have been on the receiving end of it, had we not spend enough time devising strategies exactly for that eventuality. We had no knowledge of such spell but we had previously met in an adventure with something similar that had us very scared. Counterspells, Anti-magic field, quickened/silent teleportation magic (dimension door, teleport and so on), reserve actions were some of the standard strategies we always employ when we suspect that we face something or someone with considerable magical ability. On a side note, high level play is also a question of how you handle things in general, past a certain point. For example, my mage character has tried to research such effects (duplicate the spell) and also expand in what he has only found in rudimentary notes referred to as 'weaveshear' but has failed. Even though a player qualisfies in terms of levels it does not necesserily mean that he can research whatever magic he thinks of. For certain things, tutelage may be required, extremely rare components, access to information no longer available and so on. It depends on your style of play, the speed and whether you are still only interested in the linear aspect of 'adventuring' (battle, puzzle solving, dungeon delving, experience point accumulation) or whether you wish to become involved in exploring the lore of the published setting through different avenues. Those need not mean the exclusion of traditional adventuring. Power of Faerun codifies certain things relating to high level play and novels featuring strong personages can give plenty of ideas.
Alleran 07-20-07, 10:43 PM	The way I run with it is that Mords Disjunction has a lesser effect the more powerful the item. So a +1 short sword or quasi-magical item might be gone forever unless somebody can re-enchant it (and at those high levels, I wouldn't think it to be out of the question that it could be possible), while a Staff of the Magi, for example, would only be suppressed for an hour at the most, usually much less. For advancement, the Epic-level stuff I've got at the moment spends more of their time blocking plans made by their opponents than they do fighting. They still gain experience, yes, but they generally do so through planning and intrigues than they do in straight-up combat (after all, the few times they went into a straight fight at first, the collateral damage was a bit too much, so they even try to avoid it now).
runestar 07-21-07, 12:29 AM	Replace disjunction with a chained greater dispelling or something. That is quickly becoming one of my favourite spells.:)
Mr_Miscellany 07-21-07, 06:28 AM	As an experienced Realms DM who has run a 3E campaign for his players from level 1 to (ECL) 23, I feel I've something to add. Thus: Use Mord's Disjunction as is, but smartly. Note that in this case I don’t necessarily mean 'like a munchkin'. NPC spellcasters are greedy, power hungry and always looking for an edge; they are not just DM opportunities to borrow min/maxed caster ideas from the Character Optimization boards and unleash them on unsuspecting players. So, those mages that know Mord's nastiest spell don't simply use it on a whim, because it deprives them of loot (for lack of a more elegant way of saying it) and very likely their external spell defenses. Why Disjoin the wards and spells of your innermost sanctum (the placed where you should be most powerful) when four or more self-righteous ‘heroes’ come crashing through your adamantium door? Save Mord's for Big Bad Evil Guy arcane spell-caster encounters as a last-ditch spell that is only to be used when said BBEG is about to be slain and/or the drama is so great that you create a scene in the players minds where the BBEG has been driven to win at any cost over his most hated foes (the players). I’m talking Kirk versus Khan kind of drama. Then fire it off. I've done this via an Aspect of Kiaransalee while running a heavily modified version of the City of the Spider Queen adventure...and it worked terribly well. I still hear it half-jokingly from the player who’s Headband of Intellect was destroyed in that battle, with this headband being the very first item his character crafted when he picked up the Wondrous Item creation feat some five real-life years ago. But that's OK, because my Epic and pre-Epic players still won the day, found much treasure and were quite frankly more than able to make up the loss via their own (item creation) Feats and by working their NPC contacts in Waterdeep, Silverymoon, Candlekeep, Evereska and Suzail. Incidentally, this is why the wealth by level guidelines are so important, as is player cooperation. If a DM follows these guidelines, players can suffer one or more Mord’s encounters because they have sufficient reserves of wealth to make up the losses. Provided PCs work together (high Will save classes are more likely to come away from Mord’s attacks unscathed than low Will save classes) to re-distribute party wealth, it’s even easier to rebound. Thus, at high levels, the DM can attack character wealth, because well developed PCs are robust enough to withstand and recover from such attacks. ::::::::::::::::::::: But let's not turn this into an, "Is Mord's Good or Bad For the Game?" debate. Suncapcd asked a reasonable set of questions and we ought to do our best as fellow Realms gamers and community members to share our experiences. I'll post more, later today (righ now J.K. Rowling owns my remaining attention...Go Harry!)
msatran 07-21-07, 12:19 PM	I rarely use it because the caster's allies are not immune to the disjunction either. Also, the real restriction is "If the PC's have an artifact, roll those percentile dice." I run a lot of games that reach this level, and let me tell you, battles go one of two ways. Either they last a long time, or they end in three rounds. Quite frankly, the way the treasure charts currently work, and with the amount of stuff PC's get, I would be totally unafraid to disjunction them repeatedly. There IS a will save for this stuff, you know.
Drew1369r 07-22-07, 12:32 AM	Also, the real restriction is "If the PC's have an artifact, roll those percentile dice." I have yet to use Mord's Dysjunction spell ever as a player or DM... I don't nerf it either... if a PC wants to use it then hooray for them... but is the BBEG carrying an artifact? can you risk the chance?
GothicDan 07-22-07, 02:40 AM	I'm kind of shocked at the thought of people not using such a spell because, it boils down to, it's "not fair to the PCs." Neither is the majority of their adventuring careers... I suppose my personal preferences on gaming technique differs because I never played in a higher level game where magic items were remotely available, to the point that their power actually regularly factored into my character's role or tactics.
Drew1369r 07-22-07, 03:09 AM	As stated... I don't use it because... does the NPC know they aren't carrying an artifact... cant metagame as a DM about the PC's either until, atleast, after the first encounter and would they really take the chance of being divorced from the weave?
GothicDan 07-22-07, 03:12 AM	When did Mord's Disjunction run the chance of permanently cutting off someone from the Weave? As to the Artifact bit, any archmage worth his weight in salt would have permanent Detect Magic running. And if the character had an anti-divination spell running that would block the divination from working, then if I was the archmage, I wouldn't attack them at all until I knew their persons better. Knowledge is power.
Mr_Miscellany 07-22-07, 03:43 AM	Suncapcd asked: I wanted to post and seriously ask the GMs and experienced players of this board as to what they thought and what they have done in their games when the character level exceeded 18th. It seems to me, that if a DM really plays his NPCs like reasonably intelligent and competent NPCs, that there would be constant loss by the PCs. To reasonably advance at anything more than a snails pace, you have to fight comparable or greater level/cr npcs. Moving away from Mord’s for a moment, I think it best to first point out that even non-optimized players characters (PCs) are not going to simply roll over and die when facing an NPC caster of CR equal to or greater then the party’s average level, even if that NPC wins initiative. It’s an oversimplification to describe Very High Level (that is, 15th-20th level, but not Epic) as a game that boils down to whether DM or player wins initiative in order to determine who lives and who dies. That doesn’t means characters won’t die...of course they can, eventually. But neither Mord’s nor any other of the ever-growing list of available spells automatically (or even mostly) result in character death simply because they are used in play. There is in fact no threat of slippery slope where characters die all the time and end up draining wealth for resurrections at a rate faster than they can gain it back through treasure. At least, not in my experience. And I’m not all that nice to my players when it comes to designing encounters, either. I know there are high level games being played...how do you do it? Good question. Me? I don’t pull punches in my Realms Campaign. High Level games require DMs to keep players on their toes, with one foot in the campaign world and one foot in game mechanics. At this level DMs must, without breaking the rules or seeming to act in a overly-contrived way, keep their players thinking the next encounter might slay them (all). This doesn’t mean absolute fear of death all the time (that’s no fun and wears one out). Rather, it means being creative. It means attacking in different ways, whether it be going after PC cohorts and servants and allies to lure players into traps, or taking a different approach and designing creatures and encounters that do more than try for hit point damage (such as by creating encounter areas that drain spellcasting slots automatically, or by adding ability damage/drain to all melee attacks made by a monster.....Shadowfang’s Lair from the new Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land adventure is a great example of this). Having seemingly low level NPCs with an ability or item ‘not in line’ with their presumed level is OK to. It’s not against the rules to have a random, low-level manservant attempt to attack a PC at night, when their guard is down, their gear taken off and their defensive spells used up, via a +5 dagger dipped in Advanced Purple Worm Poison (with corresponding higher DC to save against) and enspelled to trigger a True Strike just before the next attack is made with that blade, so long as the servant was mindslaved and equipped for the task by some suitably powerful and devious enemy of the characters (any clone of Manshoon comes to mind). Players like to assume that because their characters are high level they can throw their weight around and not have to fear 98% of what’s out there. Disabuse them of that notion, and fast. Thus, keep the players on their toes in the game and the campaign world and you can rest assured they will respond by building smart, robust characters with each level they survive to gain. Just be sure to reward them fairly and don’t hold back a reward if they outsmart you. Fair’s fair, after all. Anyway, that’s how I (try) to do it. :)
Mr_Miscellany 07-22-07, 03:46 AM	When did Mord's Disjunction run the chance of permanently cutting off someone from the Weave? Dan, check the listing for Mord's: Additionally, if an artifact is destroyed, you must make a DC 25 Will save or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities. (These abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic, not even miracle or wish.) That's what Drew1369r means by being divorced from the Weave. A proper interpretation, if you ask me.
GothicDan 07-22-07, 04:23 AM	Alright, I'll admit complete ignorance to that. But that being said, my above assumptions still apply: no idiot would run around slinging high level spells at opponents without having an idea as to their capabilities.
Mr_Miscellany 07-23-07, 01:19 AM	I'm sure most NPC Archmages will consistently employ Arcane Sight for a quick rundown of a foe's magics, just like smart players will. That said, not all situations allow for this. Encounter scenarios sometimes call for surprise rounds and/or situations where either PCs or NPCs have no choice but to go in blind to turn a situation in their favor. PCs/NPCs can plan for a lot, but they can't plan for everything. :)
GothicDan 07-23-07, 07:06 PM	I dunno. With access to the sheer amount of divination spells in the D&D game, and the ability to make new ones, coupled with super-genius Intelligence scores we can't even imagine, it makes me hard-pressed to imagine any scenarios that one of us, as DMs or players, could create that such people wouldn't be able to plan for.
Drew1369r 07-23-07, 07:54 PM	But lets not forget the amount of divination fooling spells out there... not alot but longer running... no PC or NPC worth there lot would not put up there wards to protect from such spells.
Alleran 07-24-07, 12:20 AM	When thinking of powerful "Block Divination" spells, I always tend to think of Mind Blank. Assuming you can cast it, it's a pretty high-end spell. Sure, there are probably ways around it, but not all of them would be available to the average party.
GothicDan 07-24-07, 06:03 AM	Mind Blank is a simple 8th level spell. A newly researched 9th level spell, or an Epic one, could pierce it. That and the fact that Foresight is a 9th level spell that focuses on the caster. Having one's entire ability to use magic stripped is a dangerous enough affect to qualify one's Foresight going off. And since the caster's basically the target, no anti-divination spells cast on those targeted by Mord's Disjunction would have any affect on it.
dragonheart 07-24-07, 11:16 AM	After 27 years of gaming and DMing high level play and low as well everything inbetween and epic one of the most important things is to keep up the challenge for the players. this means both motivation and risk. As a rule I try for a mortality rate around 10% with it rising to about 25% for stupid play. so death (and ressuraction) are regular parts of the game. THat said ressurection often is not a choice either from character motivation or game realities (getting eaten by a red dragon makes it difficult (not impossible I know but...)). Generally the higher the level the slower the progression in level and the more political and less combative the campaign so alternatives to combat based progressions may come into play - I often grant high/epic PCs experience based on how their minions did in a subplot campaign (generally about 10% of the experience gained by their minions for picking the right folks, supplying them properly and having your plans succeed and your foe's plans foiled.
Alleran 07-24-07, 11:43 AM	Mind Blank is a simple 8th level spell. A newly researched 9th level spell, or an Epic one, could pierce it. True, though you need Epic levels to get Epic Spellcasting and then Epic spells. A bit of a waste to just break through Mind Blank, one would think. As to 9th level spells, sure, but Mind Blank would work against anybody who doesn't have access to 9th level stuff or higher, which tends to be (IMO) the majority of spellcasters out there.
SlanderPanic 07-24-07, 03:15 PM	Let's not forget the Forgotten Realms character's best friend: An NPC Master Alchemist. A few potions of mind blank could be quite handy. A potion of antimagic field could also be very potent, if used intelligently.
GothicDan 07-24-07, 07:17 PM	True, though you need Epic levels to get Epic Spellcasting and then Epic spells. A bit of a waste to just break through Mind Blank, one would think. As to 9th level spells, sure, but Mind Blank would work against anybody who doesn't have access to 9th level stuff or higher, which tends to be (IMO) the majority of spellcasters out there. If we're talking about spellcasters with access to Mord's Disjunction in the first place, we don't have to worry about the availability of 9th level spells.
Mr_Miscellany 07-24-07, 09:02 PM	Mind Blank is a simple 8th level spell. A newly researched 9th level spell, or an Epic one, could pierce it. Within the context of the game and its rules, it's not always wise to assume that a higher level spell can be made to trump the effect of a lower level spell, simply because the new spell is of higher level. For example, Superior Invisibility is an 8th level spell that functions as Invisibility, except it renders one immune See Invisibility and about four other spells, plus masks one's sound and scent. Yet True Seeing (a 5th level spell) can still defeat it. Similarly, Freedom of Movement is a 4th level Cleric spell that can nullify any spell effect -regardless of level- that imposes a Grapple Check. Thus it can defeat the 9th level spell Bigby's Crushing Hand if that spell is used to grapple the caster. If we move outside the rules and just talk lore/story, then it becomes pointless, as over the millenia in the Realms there are very likely countless spells that counter other spells that counter other spells, etc/forever, due to mage A crafting a spell to defeat mage B's divination defense, so mage B responds by tweaking his spell, resulting in B tweaking his, then C comes along and tries to take out both A and B, requiring them to adjust.....see what I mean? It's like the, "Who is the most powerful mage in Faerûn?" question, because without a precise accounting of the circumstances each mage might face in a given scenario, there's no good way to tell what will or won't happen. We approach the same thing here. That and the fact that Foresight is a 9th level spell that focuses on the caster. Having one's entire ability to use magic stripped is a dangerous enough affect to qualify one's Foresight going off. And since the caster's basically the target, no anti-divination spells cast on those targeted by Mord's Disjunction would have any affect on it. I dunno, seems like a gross generalization to me. If we talk game mechanics, the spell does nothing to protect you from a surprise round Disjunction. Beyond that, it only gives a general idea of what to do to protect one's self. In most scenarios I can't see this spell doing more than alerting the mage who cast it that he's about to get screwed and there's nothing he can do about it. :)
Leukrythus 07-25-07, 10:15 AM	Even with Meta/Extend, the range on Disjunction is only 150 feet. No intelligent high level group with spellcasters should let an enemy spellcaster get that close to them. There are plenty of ways to avoid Disjunction, like Counterspelling (as an Arch-Mage), Contingency/Teleport, Foresight (you know it's coming), and Moment of Prescience (make the save). And by now all arcane casters should have at least one quickened escape spell and/or a method to disable enemy casters. Our group has a 9th level spell called Greater True Seeing, the range is long (400+40/level). Only 120 feet for the 5th/6th level spell is inadequate for epic encounters. Then there's the greed factor. NPCs should be at least as greedy as PCs, or greedier. None of my PCs as a player or DM had ever cast that spell at an enemy with magic items because they wanted to horde the loot and sell it. That enemy spellcaster (25th level) who is about to ambush your epic party is a greedy SOB who wants to kill you and take your stuff as much as you want his stuff. But there are worse spells out there than Disjunction. As a DM my epic players fear Mass Harm much, much more! It had Meta/Widen on it to cover more area. It didn't kill any of six characters, but did kill all their henchmen. All except for the undead, they loved it! The party was getting way too cocky, and this taught them a lesson in humility. It slowed them down quite a bit, and I think it made them smarter and more fearful players.
jarazix 07-25-07, 12:07 PM	I came to a simple conclusion. If a 9th level spell can destroy so too can a spell create. I named the spell Jarazix's Rejoin not at home so don't remember specifics but basically it reverses the work of disjunction. It however takes nearly a day to cast and can only be done within a certain time limit after the dysjunction ( we do not allow it to affect artifacts )
Leukrythus 07-25-07, 04:43 PM	I came to a simple conclusion. If a 9th level spell can destroy so too can a spell create. I named the spell Jarazix's Rejoin. Nice idea, but doesn't that violate the Second Law of Abjurdynamics?
Leukrythus 07-27-07, 04:42 PM	Another spell to fear is Implosion (fort save). The range is short, only 25+5/2L, but the caster can get up to four chances to irrevocably destroy you. Meta Enlarge and Extend would make this spell even more deadly.
GothicDan 07-27-07, 09:28 PM	If we move outside the rules and just talk lore/story, then it becomes pointless, as over the millenia in the Realms there are very likely countless spells that counter other spells that counter other spells, etc/forever, due to mage A crafting a spell to defeat mage B's divination defense, so mage B responds by tweaking his spell, resulting in B tweaking his, then C comes along and tries to take out both A and B, requiring them to adjust.....see what I mean? It's like the, "Who is the most powerful mage in Faerûn?" question, because without a precise accounting of the circumstances each mage might face in a given scenario, there's no good way to tell what will or won't happen. We approach the same thing here. That sounds about right as to how I envision the most experienced and intelligent archmagi in Faerun working. Hence super secrecy (harder to make counters) and why we see so many archmages actually being fairly civil with each other at times despite drastic alignment differences. In the end, they know it'd be almost more of a hassle to actually try to out-magic each other than a reward. Hence grand chess-like scheming among such luminaries. A thousand years in direct service to Mystra, for instance, and a natural penchent for being snoopy and prepared, means that a character like Elminster is more likely to just remove himself from possibly hostile situations than try to spell-battle them, with the two most likely scenarios being incessant, monotonous, unsatisfying counters and contingencies on both sides, orone of them finally slipping up/getting lucky. Neither option is very preferable to most archmages in the Realms. After all, people ask why there are so many high level Wizards. Even with 3E having minutely narrowed the power gap between classes, there is still the fact that Epic level Wizards have virtually endless time, resources, spellbook pages, and contingencies with which to remove oneself from most possible threats upon one's life. To me, when an ancient archmage decides it IS time to throw some spells, all Hell has already broken lose.
GothicDan 07-27-07, 09:32 PM	If we talk game mechanics, the spell does nothing to protect you from a surprise round Disjunction. Beyond that, it only gives a general idea of what to do to protect one's self. In most scenarios I can't see this spell doing more than alerting the mage who cast it that he's about to get screwed and there's nothing he can do about it. The wording of the spell you pointed out (using 'you,' the casterr) means that you only run a risk of this fate if you destroy an artifact with it. A surprise-round MD that YOU cast isn't very surprising to you, and since as far as I know the warning the Foresight offers is instantaneous, I imagine you'd be warned against casting that spell just as you're opening your lips to say the first word.
Mr_Miscellany 07-28-07, 01:25 PM	To me, when an ancient archmage decides it IS time to throw some spells, all Hell has already broken lose.Well said, Dan, well said. So if a mage of the type you describe wants to throw down, then beforehand he's spent an inordinate amount of time making sure he's already aware of and prepared for every last detail and possible counter move by his foe, so he can't be caught off guard and is about as sure of winning as he can be. It's kind of like when a Peace Summit is called, in that by the time the 'official' Summit takes place between two great world leaders, all the real leg work, negotiating and detail confirming efforts have already been done to make sure of what's going to happen ahead of time.
Leukrythus 07-30-07, 12:49 PM	A peace summit that takes characters ages to prepare for doesn't sound that interesting to me as a player. Arcane spellcasters are the nuclear missiles of D&D. They need to have their locations hidden and be kept in hardened bunkers. When activated they can be used to take out cities or enemy Wizards in their bunkers. But when they're used, war will follow unless the other side surrenders.
GothicDan 07-30-07, 06:34 PM	What is interesting to us as players really has no influence on what is represented among the NPCs of the canon setting. And I, personally, would LOVE to organize, spy on, engage in, etc. such summits. So much more interesting than tossing Fireballs.
Eli_the_Tanner 07-30-07, 10:40 PM	I wanted to post and seriously ask the GMs and experienced players of this board as to what they thought and what they have done in their games when the character level exceeded 18th. It seems to me, that if a DM really plays his NPCs like reasonably intelligent and competent NPCs, that there would be constant loss by the PCs. To reasonably advance at anything more than a snails pace, you have to fight comparable or greater level/cr npcs. When my players have attained the heights of power that you describe, they are often capable of dealing with such events. A group that has played with each other for many years (in-game and real-life) develop a natural capability for their characters to deal with these challenges. They are painfully aware of their individual weaknesses and strengths and react accordingly. When they go up against a wizard they have fought many such foes before, the tactics that worked before continue to work still. Arguebly the weaknesses of the wizard are heightened even more so by now(due to Bab/Sav/Hp difference etc.), also by knowing what has worked for and against their own wizard before and catering for it. A high-level group is far more than the sum of it's parts, experience is not just a number but a true representaion of the groups ability to work with each other. I know there are high level games being played...how do you do it? This is a very good question. It takes far more creativity, understanding and ingenuity on my part than it has ever before. If anything, finding new ways to challenge my players is the real task. I tend to use high-level play as a way of the players showing me how to overcome challenges in new ways, you can throw most things at them and they will come up with some way of getting past it. This is not to say that these players are not challenged or even thwarted at times but rather that the outcomes of such encounters can no longer be scripted. Creating a highly organic and flexible campaign style.