Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Monch9 08-05-03, 09:46 PM	Here's my view of : Aegis Fang +3 Mithral modified dwarven thrower maul (FRCS): Caster Level: 10th, Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be a dwarf of at least 10th level, ; Market Price: 87015 gp; Cost to Create: 43515 gp + 3280 XP. This weapon appears to be a large, extra-heavy hammer (maul) and functions as a +3 maul. However, a character of sufficient size (at least 6'8") and strength (at least 19) finds that the maul gains an additional +1 enhancement bonus (for a total enhancement bonus of +4) and deals additional +1d4 points of bonus damage on any hit. The maul can be hurled with a 30-foot range increment. It returns to its thrower on the round after it was thrown and is then ready to be wielded or thrown again. Modified Dwarven Thrower, instead of the +1d8/+2d8 (against giants) additional damage when thrown, I just made it a flat +1d4 on any hit. Also I added the cost of Mithral which is 500gp X weight in lbs. Maul's are 20lbs. Mithral maul would be half the weight or 10lbs. Monch
Israfel666 08-06-03, 08:03 PM	A good job as well, Monch, just like Icingdeath. I had two points, though: 1) Why the size requirement? I can see DMs and players alike wondering whether their 6'75" characters can use AF. Remove it, the strength requirement is enough. 2) Add an alignment requirement. In Sea of Swords a mountain giant took hold of AF but couldn't use it as a throwing hammer, IIRC. Alignment issues are all I can think of.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-06-03, 09:05 PM	Originally posted by Israfel666 2) Add an alignment requirement. In Sea of Swords a mountain giant took hold of AF but couldn't use it as a throwing hammer, IIRC. Alignment issues are all I can think of. I thought that was because the weapon is attuned to Wulfgar so only he can throw it, but then, I could be wrong.
Monch9 08-06-03, 09:13 PM	Israfel666, Good point on the alignment, problem is I'm not sure how to price the alignment thing and where did this come from. Have any suggestion? What if I restricted the hammer to non-giants as well? So it's gotta be, non-giant, 19 str, 6'8", then you get the additional Dwarven thrower features. Rinonalyrna, Thanks for your comments, but how would you price the attuning part in 3.5? Also, I can't believe that after Wulfgar passes away, no one else can handle the hammer? How about we follow the race qualifier. Has to be human (no height requirement) and 19 str. Monch
Conan 08-07-03, 08:37 AM	Just use the Dwarven Thrower method of "In the hands of a Dwarf etc..." but change it to human. Keep the strength proviso though. Which means it ends up being a mini Maul of the Titans/Dwarven Thrower. Cool. As far as my recollection of the books go there has only been 2 people who have actually used Aegis-Fang, in a true combat sense that is. The first being Wulfgar, of course, and the second was the barbarian youth who ended up stealing it and brought it to the cave on the Ice Floes. (Dammit. Can't remember his name. Gonna get flamed for this one.) So that means that so far the "Human" angle stands up to inspection. Of course all that can change if RASalvatore decides to have someone else use it. Otherwise good work Monch.
Tyr_Geri 08-07-03, 09:13 AM	I believe his name was Kierstaad, Son of Revjak;)
Conan 08-07-03, 09:15 AM	Thanks dude. For that you can have 20XP at the next session. ;)
Maskanodel 08-07-03, 09:21 AM	Originally posted by Monch9 What if I restricted the hammer to non-giants as well? So it's gotta be, non-giant, 19 str, 6'8", then you get the additional Dwarven thrower features. Spoilers for Sea of Swords I'm not positive and please correct me if I'm wrong but when Aegis-Fang was stolen, didn't Sheila Kree give the hammer to Bloog, the male ogre in charge of the fighters in her hideout? I'm pretty sure I remember him using it in a battle and that would pretty much squash your "non-giant" rule.
Conan 08-07-03, 09:31 AM	Ummm... Yes. Bloog (If that's the right name, going completely from memory here as I don't have the books at hand) did get given Aegis-Fang but he never used it in the trhowing sense so that still holds up to scrutiny, if the throwing ability is just for humans as it was for dwarves from DMG.
Lawless 08-07-03, 10:00 AM	CMIIW I don't think Sheila Kree nor Bloog for that matter knew of the Throwing/Returning enchantments on AF. That's why Bloog didn't use it effectively, he didn't know.
Sculdar 08-07-03, 10:00 AM	Originally posted by Tyr_Geri I believe his name was Kierstaad, Son of Revjak;) Quite correct...and he only threw the Hammer...but it didn´t do much damage to Errtu (compared to when wulfgar wielded it...well this could be due to Wulfgars great strength and proficiency with the weapon)..and it did not return to Kierstaad´s hand....but this was quite possibly because Wulfgar was sitting behind a wall of Ice and he called for Aegis-Fang and it therfore materialized in his hands instead of Kierstaads. This does not rule out the possibility that the returning ability works for other persons as well...but Wulfgar´s call for the weapon is at least sronger than that of others. And if i remember correctly back in 2nd edition aegis fang was a +5 maul of returning (with some special damage ability i don´t recall right now) and only a +3 maul in the hands of others without returning abbilities and special powers. So why don´t change the prerequisites : "sufficient size (at least 6'8") and strength (at least 19)" to in Wulfgar´s hands only.... It would still be a potent magic weapon in the hand of others (like the giant [or was it just a very large ogre ?] who fought drizzt with it ...but some powers are reserved for Wulfgar only..which makes sense cause Bruenor created it especially for him. Apart from that the Aegis-Fang discription is very nice..although i would change the bonus in Wulfgars hand to the original +5....
Israfel666 08-07-03, 10:06 AM	I must say I never understood that "Bruenor crafted AF specifically for Wulfgar". If you remember, The Crystal Shard narrates Bruenor's conception and forging of the weapon, and he never thought or hinted that Wulfgar should wield it - he was only following the "divine inspiration", he didn't care what the hammer would be used for. Only later did Drizzt pick up the hammer and tell Bruenor "Too large for a dwarf, and too heavy for my slender arms. Perhaps that large boy...?"; the dwarf didn't answer, though later he gave the hammer to Wulfgar. But, let me repeat, the forging process didn't involve any knowledge that Wulfgar would wield the hammer.
Sculdar 08-07-03, 10:27 AM	And thats the problem with "divine inspiration"..you´ll never know what the gods (or moradin and clangeddin in that instance) had on their minds. And I still think that it was crafted especially for Wulfgar... but it´s not written down in that scene and only the gods (or R.A. Salvatore) if my reading between the lines is correct.
Tyr_Geri 08-07-03, 11:03 AM	Originally posted by Israfel666 I must say I never understood that "Bruenor crafted AF specifically for Wulfgar". If you remember, The Crystal Shard narrates Bruenor's conception and forging of the weapon, and he never thought or hinted that Wulfgar should wield it - he was only following the "divine inspiration", he didn't care what the hammer would be used for. Only later did Drizzt pick up the hammer and tell Bruenor "Too large for a dwarf, and too heavy for my slender arms. Perhaps that large boy...?"; the dwarf didn't answer, though later he gave the hammer to Wulfgar. But, let me repeat, the forging process didn't involve any knowledge that Wulfgar would wield the hammer. Spoiler Crystal Shard A discussion between Drizzt and Bruenor does hint that it was created for Wulfgar, Page117 of The Crystal Shard. "Just an old hammer, that's all," Bruenor mumbled. "The boy lost 'is club; I couldn't well turn 'im loose in this wild place without a weapon!" "And it's name?" "Aegis-fang," Bruenor replied ........ So I believe the weapon was created for Wulfgar, it just happened to be Aegis-fang.:)
Kilthius 08-07-03, 05:34 PM	From the Encyclopedia Magica: Aegis-Fang XP Value: 8,000 GP Value: 40,000 Hall of Heroes Aegis-fang is possibly the mightiest weapon to be forged in the modern day Realms, a throwback to the times when the greatest dwarven smiths crafted weapons for the gods themselves. An offspring of the hammer of thunderbolts, Bruenor crafted Aegis-fang especially for Wulfgar. So wonderful was the result, an effort of the dwarf's considerable skill and his deep love for the boy, that Bruenor knew he had reached the ultimate achievement of his trade, and would never again fire up a forge. The war hammer is fully +5 and scores double damage (2d4+2, 2d4) on a hit, gaining full attack and damage bonuses, including Wulfgar's Strength bonus, even when thrown. Furthermore, Aegis-fang unerringly reappears in Wulfgar's hand (and only in Wulfgar's hand) whenever he desires it, even if it has to disappear from someone else's hand to get there. The war hammer's magic and power are tuned perfectly to Wulfgar alone, designed especially to match his great size and strength. In the hands of another, Aegis-fang is only +3, loses its special throwing bonuses, and does not score double damage. ---------- So, whatever weapon type you make it (War Hammer or Maul), these are the 2nd ed magic abilities; - Adamantite head with Mithral handle (not mentioned above but is mentioned in The Crystal Shard). - +5 enhancement bonus - Does double base weapon damage (i.e. normal Hammer 1D8; A.F. - 2D8) - Throwing - Called (as per the Armor special ability in Defenders of the Faith) - Attuned to Wulfgar - in the hands of another, it does base damage, only has a +3 enhancement bonus, and does not possess the called ability.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-07-03, 08:14 PM	Originally posted by Monch9 Rinonalyrna, Thanks for your comments, but how would you price the attuning part in 3.5? I'm sorry, but I couldn't say, because I don't have those 3.5 books yet. And by the way, you're welcome. Also, I can't believe that after Wulfgar passes away, no one else can handle the hammer? One thing: Wulfgar never actually passes away, he was just dragged down to the Abyss. :) Other people *can* handle the hammer, as well. I don't recall there being any alignment restrictions for this either (it falls into the hands of Sheila Kree, who could not have been good).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-07-03, 08:20 PM	Originally posted by Lawless CMIIW I don't think Sheila Kree nor Bloog for that matter knew of the Throwing/Returning enchantments on AF. That's why Bloog didn't use it effectively, he didn't know. This is probably it--it's possible that if the hammer is thrown, it won't return to anyone except Wulfgar, but I don't want to debate about it because it has been a while since I read these books and I don't remember any exact quotes. Also, the fact that Bloog (who as I recall was evil) was using the hammer basically knocks down the argument that the hammer can only be used by people of certain (good) alignments.
Monch9 08-07-03, 09:11 PM	When I started working on these revisions, I wanted to make the weapons powerful, but not overly. My basis would be the pricing rules, novels, and the most recent supplements. If I tried to make a straight 2e conversion, the price might be too prohibitive. So I based it on the most recent Dnd product (Silver Marches). It lists Aegis Fang as a +4 Throwing/Returning Maul (no restrictions). This makes it a +6 weapon. That's when the idea of the Dwarven Thrower property would fit. This property has a price tag of +3 with 10000 additional. So with at +3 maul add the dwarven property. We have a +6 weapon with 10000gp added. I just needed something for the Dwarf only use. The way the Dwarven Thrower is described in Dnd is the way I envision how Aegis Fang is based on. It has a standard enchantment that everybody can use. In the Dwarven Thrower, it's a standard +2 warhammer. In Aegis Fang, it's a +3 Maul. The (alignment/race/strenght) pre-requisite only applies to the weapons other abilities (+1, additional damage, throwing/distance/returning). So in all the instances where it's being used by someone other than Wulfgar, it's just a plain +3 maul. Kierstaad probably doesn't have the strength requirement, so he threw it as a normal thrown weapon and probably didn't go far (DnD has rules for this). Bloog has something that Aegis Fang doesn't like (maybe race or alignment) so it just functions as a normal +3 maul. Looking back at the novel, the alignment angle sounds pretty plausible since the 3 Dwarven dieties involved in the creation were Moradin (LG), Clangeddin (LG), and Dumathoin (TN). 3.5e has provisions for alignment restrictions and we can put that as well as strength as the requirements for the special weapons. However, a character of good alignment and with sufficient strength (at least 19) finds that the maul gains an additional +1 enhancement bonus (for a total enhancement bonus of +4) and deals additional +1d4 points of bonus damage on any hit. It also gains the ability to be hurled with a 30-foot range increment. It returns to its thrower on the round after it was thrown or when called and is then ready to be wielded or thrown again. Monch PS. Kilthus, Aegis Fang has a Mithril head with an adamantine handle. FYI. And I like that called ability.
azildurn 08-09-03, 07:31 AM	why would you want to price it down to a reasonable level? shouldn't a masterwork like Aegis Fang be outside the rules of the game. If your going to allow a player to create the greatest weapon in the realms since the time of the dwarven empires I would thing that a prohibative cost is perfect. Make them work for it and the result be due to divine inspiration and good role-playing rather than just getting some money and xp together and going through a couple of steps. This should be an epic event not just the application of a few rules I would thing.
Ivarrius 08-09-03, 12:37 PM	I believe the 3E stats for Aegis Fang are in the Silver Marches book. Should be under Wulfgars Description.
Shylo Slick 08-10-03, 12:13 AM	when drizzt was fighting errtu in the ice cave the young barbarian boy threw the hammer at errtu, it hurt him a little but nothing compared to what it does in wulgars hands moments later. the boy was disappointed that the hammer didn't return to him when he threw it at errtu, and was shocked when it disappeared "luckily it disappeared into wulfgars hands, who was trapped in an icy prison cell box nearby" nobody but wulfgar can make the hammer return to them, or get the added damage and to hit bonuses, or the giant killing effect, let's not forget the ageis fang's other name is giant slayer
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-10-03, 01:06 AM	Originally posted by Monch9 Looking back at the novel, the alignment angle sounds pretty plausible since the 3 Dwarven dieties involved in the creation were Moradin (LG), Clangeddin (LG), and Dumathoin (TN). 3.5e has provisions for alignment restrictions and we can put that as well as strength as the requirements for the special weapons. I can see why it would be plausible...but still, more than one evil person has handled this weapon, and if I recall correctly Bloog was actually using it. Alignment restrictions makes sense, but it might clash with the novels.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-10-03, 01:11 AM	Originally posted by azildurn why would you want to price it down to a reasonable level? shouldn't a masterwork like Aegis Fang be outside the rules of the game. Why should it be? This should be an epic event not just the application of a few rules I would thing. Don't get me wrong--I'm a firm believer that rules do not and should not matter much in novels and stories. But if you are making actual game stats for this weapon, shouldn't it follow the rules. Maybe I missed something, but other than the description quoted before (about this being the greatest weapon in the Realms), I've never gotten the impression that this warhammer is the mightest, ultimate weapon in all the Realms, and that it's creation was an epic (I dare say, world-shaking?) event. I doubt RAS would ever describe it that way, either. I'm not saying it's not a powerful uber-weapon, I just don't see why it should be considered the mightest in all the Realms. That seems to be a bit of an overstatement, to say the least.
Kilthius 08-10-03, 12:32 PM	It doesn't say it's the mightiest weapon in the realms - just that it's the mightiest weapon forged in the MODERN-DAY realms. Many of the powerful weapons and artifacts on Toril were created thousands of years ago during the age of high magics (Netheril, Cormanthor and such). Just look at your "common" magic weapons created today (as under the "specific weapons" section of any sourcebook); most are +1 or +2 with maybe an extra ability. Aegis Fang, if it were a vehicle, is a unique deluxe model sportscar fully loaded, while most weapons produced today are 2-door Fords.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-10-03, 06:22 PM	Originally posted by Kilthius It doesn't say it's the mightiest weapon in the realms - just that it's the mightiest weapon forged in the MODERN-DAY realms. *shrugs* That may be true. But, in truth, other than that little bit of information, I never got the impression that it was the mightiest weapon forged in the modern day Realms, either. :) I tend to take extreme statements like that with a grain of salt (in all cases) but that's just me.
azildurn 08-11-03, 08:52 AM	The reason it should be price ridiculously high is so that every character in the world isn't carrying one. Also I believe the first post stated that by actually applying the rules he received the ridiculous price. I guess my main point is that players should have to do more than spend a bit of cash to create something of this level. It should be a part of an epic quest. Otherwise it won't be properly appreciated by the owner. It's more fun to role play through all this stuff then just to have it happen in between game sessions because someone had the right XP and gold. Save that for common potions and scrolls. Just my opinion but I think this is why so many people think the forgotten realms is just for Suthar the super paladin type characters and that the Realms are dominated by NPCs. I think that's a pile of crap and that it's the gaming style of so many realms players that turns them off. If it's going to be that powerful then it should be a truly epic item and it should be horibly powerful just as it was in the novels and it should not be easy to make. It just makes the game less fun if there's no tribulations for the PCs. Just my opinion but I'm a big believer in role-playing so beware of my prejudices. =)
ElGrecoETAC 08-11-03, 09:12 AM	I think much of this conversation would be simpler if one removed meta-gaming from it. Bruenor made a hammer for Wulfgar and called it Aegis-Fang. For those who don't like how certain magic items were converted into 3E, there are plenty of 1E and 2E sources that tell you exactly what sort of weapon it was. None of those descriptions refer to alignment. The official 1E and 2E notes state that it was made for Wulgar, and that only he can use its more special powers. So what if Bloog the Ogre wielded in the book? He probably didn't even know of its hidden powers--he just knew he had been gifted a remarkable weapon. Kierstaadt hurled the weapon, but it did not return. Again, it returns only to Wulfgar. Beyond the argument of racial and size restrictions (in fact, if you remove all metagaming), the weapon was also masterfully balanced for Wulfgar's body and style of fighting. From there, it becomes easy for a DM to say what size person uses it. I don't have the Hall of Heroes or the Heroes' Lorebook in front of me, but I think both used the same text and referred to a specific Strength. Now, for the pricing. I think this is a moot point, because the weapon was created unconventionally. Bruenor was no priest or wizard, and certainly did not have the Craft Magical Weapon feat. Unless you want to have a couple of other Dwarves in your FR who are granted the literary device RAS used, then you are barking up the wrong tree, because a spellcaster would arrive at the same point with different methods and abilities... hence the pricing system in the DMG.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-11-03, 08:03 PM	Originally posted by ElGrecoETAC So what if Bloog the Ogre wielded in the book? He probably didn't even know of its hidden powers--he just knew he had been gifted a remarkable weapon. I believe this was brought up to refute the argument that only good characters should be able to use the weapon. :) But I happen to agree with most of your post.
Monch9 08-11-03, 09:36 PM	El Greco, What do you think? :) MORADIN’S BLESSING [ITEM CREATION] Prerequisite: Must be a Dwarf of any Good alignment, Character level 12, Craft Weaponsmithing 15 Benefit : Having this feat enables the character to gain the Craft Magic Arms and Armor Feat for one magic weapon of +5 or more enchantment. This feat also enables the character to bypass the Caster level requirements to create the weapon. The character still has to have the means to cast the spells for any additional effect to be bestowed on the weapon. from The Crystal Shard : "If yer talent for the craft is keen," his father had said, "and ye're lucky enough to live long and feel the strength of the earth, ye'll find a special day. A special blessin' - some would say a curse - has been placed upon our people, for once, and only once, the very best of our smiths may craft a weapon of their choosing that outdoes any work they'd ever done. Be wary of that day, son, for ye'll put a great deal of yerself into that weapon. Ye'll never match its perfection in yer life again and, knowing this, ye'll lose a lot of the craftsman's desire that drives the swing of yer hammer. Ye may find an empty life after yer day, but if yer good as yer line says ye'll be, ye'll have crafted a weapon of legend that will live on long after yer bones are dust. "
ElGrecoETAC 08-11-03, 10:14 PM	In and of itself, it's a good idea, though my not having any of my books with me kind of limits my ability to give you a "judgement"--if you will. I won't lie to you, though; IMHO, Aegis Fang and its crafting is one of those "special somethings" to me... stuff that I'd probably keep unique. But that's just me--and I know a lot of folks who like to come up with rules to quantify things for their own campaign or just out of curiosity on how it would work. Keep with it, it looks good from here. :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-12-03, 12:08 AM	Originally posted by ElGrecoETAC I won't lie to you, though; IMHO, Aegis Fang and its crafting is one of those "special somethings" to me... stuff that I'd probably keep unique. I agree. I always just thought of it as a "literary device", myself.
keldor 08-13-03, 09:39 AM	How can it make sense that the weilder must be X feet _tall_ in order to get the benefits of a _Dwarven_ Thrower? Surely it stands to reason that a giant wouldn't get the benefit of AF since giants are the diametric opposite of dwarfs! As for Wulfgar being able to use the hammer: a) It was made specifically for him by his 'father'; b) he also isn't a giant per se (except by human standards!).
Kantor Brightblade 08-13-03, 05:34 PM	To be honest, my knowledge of the crafting, pricing and all of that really escapes me. However, what I do know is that the paragraph from The Crystal Shard above, to me, is the best section I've ever read from an FR book. I think if you really wanted to base what and how you should price a weapon of AF calliber...read that passage closely. The fact that a Dwarf basically puts his or her entire being into ONE item far surpasses any standardized price or rule... I know that you are making it game specific and I'm sure you have the sentimentality (sp?) in mind...but that one passage is all you need to make the weapon IMO.
Toj 08-14-03, 02:21 PM	Would you say Wulfgar generally wields Aegis fang with one hand, or two. Because if he wields it with 2 hands, he will gain a higher damage bonus (isn't it 1.5 times?)