Alignment: Hereditary or Society's fault? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alignment: Hereditary or Society's fault? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nirvana24
05-14-05, 03:46 AM I was thinking, and reading some things on the net, and I wanted to get some of your opinions on what is most likely to shape someone's alignment, beliefs, and principals.

For starters, would you say people (of any race) are born good, neutral, or evil? Is it determined simply by who you are and what is in your heart? Do you know who you are, and follow that path - despite others around you and how they are?

Or in the opposite direction, would you say you are born.. just nothing, really. That you are innocent to the world around you, and that the society you live in has the most affect on your life and behavior. Your parents, city, friends, teachers, whoever- simply mold you into what THEY already are, and MAKE you what you will become?

Then I was thinking of the Drow. Like all races in the realms, there are evil, good, and neutral drow. Is there more evil drow than the others because of the evil drow society currently there, ruled by an evil deity such as Lolth? Or is the majority not even evil? Maybe they are all neutral and just don't say anything to oppose the authorities? Or maybe there are more good than we think.. people like Zak- who was simply changed into what he became due to the world around him?

Or is it a combination of both? That alignment can't simply be labelled as black and white? That there are people who are born something and know what they want out of life, but also there are followers, easily manipulated into what is around them and changed accordingly?

Thoughts?
Andyr
05-14-05, 07:49 AM I would say that in most cases for mortal creatures it is the society they live in that shapes their most likely alignment - though how tightly that society controls its individuals would determine the likely spectrum. I guess there'd be perhaps some magic influences too - for example humans of all alignments live in large cities, though elves in large cities are probably mostly CG because that's just their "nature".

For Fiends, Celestials, Slaadi, Inevitables and so on though I'd say that they are the essence of their alignment, they are created that way. Probably why they're almost entirely one specific alignment. :)
Alac Luin
05-14-05, 06:18 PM This one is easy for outsiders.
Since they are made from the essence of the plane they come from, it reasons that if the “home plane” has a alignment trait (mildly evil, etc), it would be nature for them to tend to the alignment of that plane.

This can get tricky for “outsiders(native)” such as tieflings, but as has been stated in the books, they tend to be evil due to the fiendish blood.
I do believe, this can be overcome by careful nurturing, by the human parents or guardians.

Personally, I feel the evil societies are more evil due to society.
Drow are evil, because they live in a society that everyone including the leaders chase “self serving interests”, that is what is considered the norm and personal power is chased more then the good of all.

I know not everyone may agree with this, and certain Dragon magazine articles will tell me I’m wrong, I choose not to listen to these.

Then when we come to races such as orcs, kobolds and the goblinkin, I’m not really sure how I feel, but I think it is still a social thing as opposed to nature.
Nirvana24
05-14-05, 11:26 PM Yea I would probably agree. There are some beings that are always born evil (like demons and devils), beings that are always born good (angels etc) and then for the rest of the races , it just depend on who the person (or beast?) is. I think that society does still have a big impact on changing your "original" alignment though. I like using Drizzt as an example. I'm sure he would have been more evilish if he ended up staying in the underdark, but that he managed to escape when he did, he got to .. save his soul, so to speak.

I also think that deities shape the alignment as well. This would explain why Orcs, for example, are evil. And as there are such a wide variety of deities for other races, it only seems right for some to be born evil and some good.
I think a big reason that not all Drow are evil is because of all elves being created with the very blood of Corellon Larethian, who is good. Therefore good can exist in drow, and the society they live in probably has more of an impact on their alignment than anything else.
The Captain
05-14-05, 11:50 PM If you go to your local university and ask a professor of Psychology, the answer will be about an hour and a half long (if you get the short version) and you'll come out still asking the same question. If you ask Drizzt, his answer would be to not capture you on the spot and sell you into slavery to the Illithids.

In general I think that your nature would give creatures a predisposition to an alignment but their social learning as they grow up would eventually shape their alignment. In most cases if a drow did have a natural predisposition to a good alignment, their society would eventually change them against that. As an adult the drow would do something evil, feel a lingering bit of guilt, swallow that bit of guilt, and then go about their daily life.
Arilou_skiff
05-15-05, 11:34 AM I think it can be divided into a few different categories:

"Intelligent humanoids" these doesen't have to be humanoid per se, but it generally covers intelligent creatures who are reasonably human-esque. Goblins, gnolls, orcs, drow, elves, etc. etc. It even covers some outsiders (Genies, for instance) Intelligent humanoids tends to be of a particular alignment because of their social environment, (possibly this social environment is directly designed by a deity for their own specific ends, of course). Depending on the society variance might be more or less.

"Intelligent Monsters" These are intelligent beings whose nature is so different from that of humans that they are "locked" in a certain alignment (undead, aberrations and some magical beasts are probably most typical). Beholders for example, are naturally paranoid, for a beholder (standard type) to be anything else than evil is actually the result of a mental disease. Similarily, illithids are naturally evil, because their only way of surviving is preying on other intelligent species. This doesen't mean there cannot be exceptions to the rule, but they are very rare.

"Exemplars": These are outsiders inherently connected to an alignment, Archons, Eladrin, Guardinals, Modrons, Rilmani, Slaadi, Yugoloths, Baatezu, Tanar'ri. These creatures are not just born with their alignment, they *are* their alignment. In a very real sense a fallen archon ceases to be an archon at all. Exceptions to this rule are usually extremely rare, and often surrounded by very exceptional circumstances. A "Kill first, ask questions later" can be justified against this type of beings.

"Tainted": This refers to races (Planetouched mostly, but some of the other outsider races too I'd guess...) who are not exemplary in nature but still heavily connected to an alignment. These have a natural predisposition towards a certain alignment but it can be overcome by social factors.

"Beasts" These are creatures who, for one reason or another, are not capable of reasoning. Their alignment is almost always neutral, simply because they do not have the capacity for being anything else.
crystaldragon
05-15-05, 11:39 PM I would agree entirely with The Captain on this. :ayyyy!:

If you're really interested in the topic of nature vs. nurture, you might like to read "The Blank Slate" by Steven Pinker (Viking Penguin, 2002). Your local public library would probably have a copy.

-Crystaldragon
Shemeska the Marauder
05-16-05, 10:47 AM If you're really interested in the topic of nature vs. nurture, you might like to read "The Blank Slate" by Steven Pinker (Viking Penguin, 2002). Your local public library would probably have a copy.

-Crystaldragon

Psychology, anthropology and sociology have been battered in recent years by the mounting evidence of genetics (or at least biological influence) upon complex human behavioral traits. Self conception of gender, sexual orientation, predispositions to depression, etc. Some elements of human behavior are almost wholly biological and innate while others are a mix of 'nature' and 'nuture'. Almost nothing is entirely social in origin.

But this doesn't matter for DnD. :)

Arilou_skiff said it best in his post, so I'll second his statements.
GothicDan
05-16-05, 10:57 AM One utterly fantastic idea that I've heard about is the idea that genetics also provide a certain disposition (or lack thereof) towards following certain religions (or types of religions), according to one's ethnicity.

That, I think, is very cool.
ClobberinTime
05-16-05, 03:53 PM Yes, there is a talk in DC on this very subject at the AAAS, look up Richard Dawkins also for the second view......

Most biologists believe that as far as social issues (as opposed to hey I got two thumbs kind of issues) that humans are a set of genetic switches if you will that get turned on or off by experience. There is a genetic bias, but you are determined by a combination of the two nature and nurture. Kind of like Chomsky's view of language.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nirvana24 05-14-05, 03:46 AM	I was thinking, and reading some things on the net, and I wanted to get some of your opinions on what is most likely to shape someone's alignment, beliefs, and principals. For starters, would you say people (of any race) are born good, neutral, or evil? Is it determined simply by who you are and what is in your heart? Do you know who you are, and follow that path - despite others around you and how they are? Or in the opposite direction, would you say you are born.. just nothing, really. That you are innocent to the world around you, and that the society you live in has the most affect on your life and behavior. Your parents, city, friends, teachers, whoever- simply mold you into what THEY already are, and MAKE you what you will become? Then I was thinking of the Drow. Like all races in the realms, there are evil, good, and neutral drow. Is there more evil drow than the others because of the evil drow society currently there, ruled by an evil deity such as Lolth? Or is the majority not even evil? Maybe they are all neutral and just don't say anything to oppose the authorities? Or maybe there are more good than we think.. people like Zak- who was simply changed into what he became due to the world around him? Or is it a combination of both? That alignment can't simply be labelled as black and white? That there are people who are born something and know what they want out of life, but also there are followers, easily manipulated into what is around them and changed accordingly? Thoughts?
Andyr 05-14-05, 07:49 AM	I would say that in most cases for mortal creatures it is the society they live in that shapes their most likely alignment - though how tightly that society controls its individuals would determine the likely spectrum. I guess there'd be perhaps some magic influences too - for example humans of all alignments live in large cities, though elves in large cities are probably mostly CG because that's just their "nature". For Fiends, Celestials, Slaadi, Inevitables and so on though I'd say that they are the essence of their alignment, they are created that way. Probably why they're almost entirely one specific alignment. :)
Alac Luin 05-14-05, 06:18 PM	This one is easy for outsiders. Since they are made from the essence of the plane they come from, it reasons that if the “home plane” has a alignment trait (mildly evil, etc), it would be nature for them to tend to the alignment of that plane. This can get tricky for “outsiders(native)” such as tieflings, but as has been stated in the books, they tend to be evil due to the fiendish blood. I do believe, this can be overcome by careful nurturing, by the human parents or guardians. Personally, I feel the evil societies are more evil due to society. Drow are evil, because they live in a society that everyone including the leaders chase “self serving interests”, that is what is considered the norm and personal power is chased more then the good of all. I know not everyone may agree with this, and certain Dragon magazine articles will tell me I’m wrong, I choose not to listen to these. Then when we come to races such as orcs, kobolds and the goblinkin, I’m not really sure how I feel, but I think it is still a social thing as opposed to nature.
Nirvana24 05-14-05, 11:26 PM	Yea I would probably agree. There are some beings that are always born evil (like demons and devils), beings that are always born good (angels etc) and then for the rest of the races , it just depend on who the person (or beast?) is. I think that society does still have a big impact on changing your "original" alignment though. I like using Drizzt as an example. I'm sure he would have been more evilish if he ended up staying in the underdark, but that he managed to escape when he did, he got to .. save his soul, so to speak. I also think that deities shape the alignment as well. This would explain why Orcs, for example, are evil. And as there are such a wide variety of deities for other races, it only seems right for some to be born evil and some good. I think a big reason that not all Drow are evil is because of all elves being created with the very blood of Corellon Larethian, who is good. Therefore good can exist in drow, and the society they live in probably has more of an impact on their alignment than anything else.
The Captain 05-14-05, 11:50 PM	If you go to your local university and ask a professor of Psychology, the answer will be about an hour and a half long (if you get the short version) and you'll come out still asking the same question. If you ask Drizzt, his answer would be to not capture you on the spot and sell you into slavery to the Illithids. In general I think that your nature would give creatures a predisposition to an alignment but their social learning as they grow up would eventually shape their alignment. In most cases if a drow did have a natural predisposition to a good alignment, their society would eventually change them against that. As an adult the drow would do something evil, feel a lingering bit of guilt, swallow that bit of guilt, and then go about their daily life.
Arilou_skiff 05-15-05, 11:34 AM	I think it can be divided into a few different categories: "Intelligent humanoids" these doesen't have to be humanoid per se, but it generally covers intelligent creatures who are reasonably human-esque. Goblins, gnolls, orcs, drow, elves, etc. etc. It even covers some outsiders (Genies, for instance) Intelligent humanoids tends to be of a particular alignment because of their social environment, (possibly this social environment is directly designed by a deity for their own specific ends, of course). Depending on the society variance might be more or less. "Intelligent Monsters" These are intelligent beings whose nature is so different from that of humans that they are "locked" in a certain alignment (undead, aberrations and some magical beasts are probably most typical). Beholders for example, are naturally paranoid, for a beholder (standard type) to be anything else than evil is actually the result of a mental disease. Similarily, illithids are naturally evil, because their only way of surviving is preying on other intelligent species. This doesen't mean there cannot be exceptions to the rule, but they are very rare. "Exemplars": These are outsiders inherently connected to an alignment, Archons, Eladrin, Guardinals, Modrons, Rilmani, Slaadi, Yugoloths, Baatezu, Tanar'ri. These creatures are not just born with their alignment, they are their alignment. In a very real sense a fallen archon ceases to be an archon at all. Exceptions to this rule are usually extremely rare, and often surrounded by very exceptional circumstances. A "Kill first, ask questions later" can be justified against this type of beings. "Tainted": This refers to races (Planetouched mostly, but some of the other outsider races too I'd guess...) who are not exemplary in nature but still heavily connected to an alignment. These have a natural predisposition towards a certain alignment but it can be overcome by social factors. "Beasts" These are creatures who, for one reason or another, are not capable of reasoning. Their alignment is almost always neutral, simply because they do not have the capacity for being anything else.
crystaldragon 05-15-05, 11:39 PM	I would agree entirely with The Captain on this. :ayyyy!: If you're really interested in the topic of nature vs. nurture, you might like to read "The Blank Slate" by Steven Pinker (Viking Penguin, 2002). Your local public library would probably have a copy. -Crystaldragon
Shemeska the Marauder 05-16-05, 10:47 AM	If you're really interested in the topic of nature vs. nurture, you might like to read "The Blank Slate" by Steven Pinker (Viking Penguin, 2002). Your local public library would probably have a copy. -Crystaldragon Psychology, anthropology and sociology have been battered in recent years by the mounting evidence of genetics (or at least biological influence) upon complex human behavioral traits. Self conception of gender, sexual orientation, predispositions to depression, etc. Some elements of human behavior are almost wholly biological and innate while others are a mix of 'nature' and 'nuture'. Almost nothing is entirely social in origin. But this doesn't matter for DnD. :) Arilou_skiff said it best in his post, so I'll second his statements.
GothicDan 05-16-05, 10:57 AM	One utterly fantastic idea that I've heard about is the idea that genetics also provide a certain disposition (or lack thereof) towards following certain religions (or types of religions), according to one's ethnicity. That, I think, is very cool.
ClobberinTime 05-16-05, 03:53 PM	Yes, there is a talk in DC on this very subject at the AAAS, look up Richard Dawkins also for the second view...... Most biologists believe that as far as social issues (as opposed to hey I got two thumbs kind of issues) that humans are a set of genetic switches if you will that get turned on or off by experience. There is a genetic bias, but you are determined by a combination of the two nature and nurture. Kind of like Chomsky's view of language.