Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Butterface 09-17-07, 12:21 PM	Anyone know what levels this adventure is going to be set for? -Kevin
Fillow 09-17-07, 03:11 PM	I read elsewhere that it would take a group from level 1 to 20. Sorry but I cannot remember if it was a real piece of information or just a supposition.
Butterface 09-17-07, 11:46 PM	I'm expecting it to run from levels 15 to 18-20ish? It's the third part in the hardcover super-adventure. The other two have the level range on the front cover, but this one doesn't. Just trying to figure it out! :detect:
The Simbul 09-18-07, 02:59 AM	The preview states the intended starting level is 13th. That said, I am not sure how a party of four 13th level adventurers is going to manage to take on the city of Shade. Then again, I never thought that a generic 13th level sample-NPC cleric of Shar--with her INT score of 11 and 8 ranks in knowledge (arcana, religion)--could outwit a Chosen of Mystra. I am fairly interested in how the adventure is to be pulled off at those levels. Maybe we get to use the Nether Scrolls for an artificial level bump, or find one or two of them before the Shades (presumably) steal them from Windsong Tower. Or maybe the Shadow Weave implodes from some ritual/event just before the Shade Princes arrive to perform a TPK. (sarcasm) Or maybe we get to have Galareon Nimhedu join our party, and thus through him we can boss the Chosen of Mystra around like loot-mules/suicidal-cohorts who apparently have nothing better to do with their time then try (again) to bring down the flying city.
Butterface 09-18-07, 01:15 PM	Then again, I never thought that a generic 13th level sample-NPC cleric of Shar--with her INT score of 11 and 8 ranks in knowledge (arcana, religion)--could outwit a Chosen of Mystra. Apparently an item called the Ebon Diadem had something to do with it. Once they slipped past Elminster's wards (which is unexplained), the assassins activated the item, which strengthened them greatly, feeding off the very wards that Elminster had put in place. They used his own magic against him, basically. As far as how Esvele Graycastle thought this plan up? She didn't I'm fairly certain. She is clearly a chosen of Shar or in the least has the favor of her deity. Shar has been leading her every move since she started in Calimport. But yeah, I was very disappointed in her stats. They could have made her a little smarter, geeze! Also, can you link where you found that the adventure is for 13th level? I can't for the life of me find that. -Kevin
The Simbul 09-18-07, 06:39 PM	Apparently an item called the Ebon Diadem had something to do with it. Once they slipped past Elminster's wards (which is unexplained), the assassins activated the item, which strengthened them greatly, feeding off the very wards that Elminster had put in place. They used his own magic against him, basically.Hmm, I think I was a bit too vague in my off-handed comment there. Indeed I am well aware of the circumstances of Elminster's defeat and his departure from Shadowdale in the prologue. However, there were four known Chosen of Mystra (along with an unknown quantity of weavespinners, shadowstaves, and other guardians who conveniently were not mentioned in the module) in Shadowdale, and the one I was referring to in that statement was not the one who was once a prince of Athalantar. See page 14 of the adventure for what I am specifically referring to. I can already anticipate what you or others are going to say, and I do fully intend to discuss the issue of Syluné's fate under another topic if/when time permits. However, I do not want to lead the topic too far away from Anauroch, so for the moment, much of what I would say would lay in the the reply to the quoted text below.As far as how Esvele Graycastle thought this plan up? She didn't I'm fairly certain. She is clearly a chosen of Shar or in the least has the favor of her deity. Shar has been leading her every move since she started in Calimport.While Esvele--as any generic cleric--is capable of communing with and receiving insight or orders from her deity, the principle issue is that so are the Chosen of Mystra. More precisely, logic would dictate that a Chosen of a Deity X has greater access to the knowledge, insight, and resources of Deity X, than a common cleric of Deity Y receives from Deity Y about Chosen of Deity X. Mystra possesses superior intelligence, wisdom, and knowledge modifiers than Shar. In addition, there is not a single divination or information-gathering spell that Shar has access to that Mystra herself does not likewise possess, and unlike Shar the lady of mysteries is neither limited in her known spells nor does she suffer the slightest inconvenience in inventing new ones. Similarly there is hardly a single information gathering power in Shar's possession that Mystra likewise does not possess or exceed. The only exception is that Shar possesses Know Death in addition to Know Secrets, whereas Mystra only has the latter of the two. Even in that instance, Know Death is a rather redundant ability when you already have access to the former. The point is whatever information or foresight Shar may possess vis-ą-vis Mystra's Chosen, Mystra herself should by default be far more knowledgeable, prescient, and above all protective insofar as those individuals are concerned...and more willing to impart that kind of information or assistance onto the otherwise doomed party in question. Also, on an aside, Esvele is clearly not a chosen of Shar.But yeah, I was very disappointed in her stats. They could have made her a little smarter, geeze!As of late, when it comes to conflict or destruction visited upon Mystra or her servants by Shar and her minions/allies, the actual game statistics, rules, and common sense seem only come into play when it works to the detriment of Mystra's side.Also, can you link where you found that the adventure is for 13th level? I can't for the life of me find that. -KevinIt is in the Previews for September and Beyond article, which--thanks to the post 4E announcement chaos on this site--was seemingly never given a link or heading in the usual place for such articles in archive. www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4pr/20070905a
Krash 09-18-07, 08:52 PM	The Realms works in mysterious ways, my good Simbul.:) There are all sorts of reasons as to how Elminster could have been ambushed in his tower by Shaaran assassins. The nature and powers of the Ebon Diadem were no doubt left vague on purpose. Suffice it to say that all of the various factors in combination were sufficient to unseat Elminster. Given that this was a story element/plot device, reference to the RAW and things like stats and game mechanics shouldn't enter into it - especially when, as with all story elements or plot devices, the reasons and justifications can be just about anything and more importantly don't need to have any reference to the rules of the D&D game. I have a feeling you'll likely disagree with that statement, but I've found over the years that all too often game mechanics get in the way of a good FR story. Stories will live forever. D&D game mechanics in the form you are currently using to indicate your dissatisfaction or incredulity with a situation have a distinct use-by date - last I heard it was April 2008.:) -- George Krashos
Butterface 09-18-07, 10:18 PM	Thanks for the link Simbul - yes I too find it hard to believe that 13th level characters will be able to face the challenges in the Anauroch book. As far as the discussion on the Chosen of Mystra, I think Richard Baker and the other writers of "Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land" were just simply doing something that countless DM's in the Realms have attempted to do: get Elminster out of the way so the PC's could have the limelight. As you've pointed out, that's really a pretty tough feat to accomplish believably. :) As far as whether or not a Chosen (or even a mere follower) of Shar could outsmart a Chosen of Mystra. . . I agree with you. But hey, if half of the rumors of 4E FR I'm hearing are true, the Gods have some EXPLAINING to do. In particular I'm thinking of Tyr supposedly killing Helm over a romantic misunderstanding involving Tymora's heart. . . :uh-huh: Be that as it may, my group is actually enjoying the storyline of the hardcover super-adventures, although they're not far in yet. It might take some suspension of belief in places, but like Krash said: "Stories will live forever." Let's just hope they're good stories! On a side note, are you going to be playing Living FR next year Simbul, Krash?
Meldread 09-19-07, 01:22 AM	Simbul- While I tend to agree with you Simbul, and I think Krash covered it rather well, I want to add my two cents. While Esvele--as any generic cleric--is capable of communing with and receiving insight or orders from her deity, the principle issue is that so are the Chosen of Mystra. More precisely, logic would dictate that a Chosen of a Deity X has greater access to the knowledge, insight, and resources of Deity X, than a common cleric of Deity Y receives from Deity Y about Chosen of Deity X. This is fundamentally the problem we all have when characters designed for novels meet the game rules. The whole situation was, yes, an obvious deus ex machina. However, should anyone expect anything less? Elminster and some of Mystra's Chosen (although not all) are nearly impossible to deal with without some level of deus ex machina. That is just the reality of the situation when it comes to dealing with them, and one of the primary reasons that he had to be removed. After all, how can you have an adventure in Shadowdale dealing with Zhents unless you remove Elminster and the others who would prevent that from happening? :P It would have been more believable if Elminster (and many other famous characters of the Realm's) not been Mary Sue / Larry Stu characters. While that doesn't necessarily make them bad or uninteresting characters it makes it intensely unbelievable to deal with them when placing them in a conflict that they SHOULD (for story purposes) lose.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-19-07, 05:45 PM	As far as the discussion on the Chosen of Mystra, I think Richard Baker and the other writers of "Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land" were just simply doing something that countless DM's in the Realms have attempted to do: get Elminster out of the way so the PC's could have the limelight. With all due respect, I still think this commonly cited problem is not actually a problem. And while I hesistate to speak for the Simbul, on her behalf I will say that I've read a lot of her posts, and it's obvious to me that her dissatisfaction with how certain adventures are handled is not based solely on facts and figures.
Faraer 09-19-07, 08:05 PM	There are all sorts of reasons as to how Elminster could have been ambushed in his tower by Shaaran assassins. The nature and powers of the Ebon Diadem were no doubt left vague on purpose.Indeed, we rarely know things in the Realms, especially about magic, with enough exactness to confidently say 'that couldn't happen', and so much the better. Getting the better of a mage of power involves, most of the time, a combination of great force, luck, and thinking a step ahead by first knowing something he doesn't, and then thinking far enough ahead to overcome his improvised counter. Eric knows that; he also knows that the details of this aren't the focus of the adventure. Some people who don't know that, though, are bound to think 'so it's that simple, is it?'As far as the discussion on the Chosen of Mystra, I think Richard Baker and the other writers of "Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land" were just simply doing something that countless DM's in the Realms have attempted to do: get Elminster out of the way so the PC's could have the limelight. As you've pointed out, that's really a pretty tough feat to accomplish believably. :)From day one it's been clear that the mighty of the Realms spend much of their time attending to diverse matters across Faerūn, secluded in study, or walking other planes and other worlds for months or years at a time. Descriptions of Elminster's tower state directly that, unless the DM decides otherwise, when people try to visit him he is out. So there's no difficulty in getting Elminster out of the way, it's built into the way high-level intrigue works. On the other hand, getting out of the way every character who the PCs could possibly work with as allies except a few written into the script, as Shadowdale seemingly tries, is indeed tricky to do believably -- and unnecessary and foolish (as I discuss here (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3803&whichpage=31)).It would have been more believable if Elminster (and many other famous characters of the Realm's) not been Mary Sue / Larry Stu characters.I've seen no description of a Mary Sue that applies to Elminster any better than it does to most protagonists in fiction.
msatran 09-19-07, 11:49 PM	Plus, Elminster in particular is... A SAGE. His purpose is to TELL THE PC'S STUFF AND SMOKE HIS PIPE WHILE HE DOES IT! And he's not just A SAGE. He's THE Sage. Who cares what spells he can cast? I have a rule with NPCs like this. They roleplay out more, but unless you're related to them, or they REALLY like you, standard rates apply. :) Is 30 GP an hour for Elminsters services unreasonable? Probably not if he's a researcher. Your goal as the DM is to take their money away. :) USE ELMINSTER FOR THE PURPOSE FOR WHICH HE WAS MEANT AND DO SO! My problem is that I have a million angry player characters who, once this event hits, will scour Shadowdale like angry 20+ level reapers. And since they're not chosen of anything, they'll just kill all these people and probably not take much damage. Scyulla Darkhope won't have time to respond, because there will be so many dead bodies of fleeing Zhents and Drow that poor Alokkair will be looking for ways to not be vaporized.
Meldread 09-20-07, 03:46 AM	Faraer- When I call Elminster a Mary Sue, I mean it in this way: He is a character that is designed to overcome all obstacles. He may face challenges, yes, and it may seem as if he will lose, but ultimately he will always overcome them. He finds a way to persevere. A perfect example of this is Elminster in Hell, and another good example is the Spellplague. The world is practically torn apart, thousands of wizards have died or gone insane, yet Elminster is already confirmed to have survived. Of course, that doesn't necessarily make for bad novels. That's completely subjective and comes down to personal tastes. It's not my cup of tea, but that doesn't necessarily make him a bad character or the stories bad. The problem arises when you try and translate him (and others like him - and there are many in the Forgotten Realms) into game terms. You can not. He's designed and intended to be used as a plot device and for novels. As a result of his very nature getting rid of him requires a deus ex machina - which was the point I was trying to make. You cannot "defeat" someone who was designed to be undefeatable. Shadowdale itself was designed to never fall, and "realistically" would not have fallen. Therefore it had to be conquered in a deus ex machina event. I just find it odd that people complain over the fact that it wasn't "realistic" for these things to happen. Instead, I would think the complaints would make more sense if they were directed at the fact that something was designed in such a way as to require deus ex machina to deal with it. After all whose fault is it really? The designer of Shadowdale or the designers of the module?
Asgetrion 09-20-07, 01:17 PM	Faraer- As a result of his very nature getting rid of him requires a deus ex machina - which was the point I was trying to make. You cannot "defeat" someone who was designed to be undefeatable. Shadowdale itself was designed to never fall, and "realistically" would not have fallen. Therefore it had to be conquered in a deus ex machina event. I just find it odd that people complain over the fact that it wasn't "realistic" for these things to happen. Instead, I would think the complaints would make more sense if they were directed at the fact that something was designed in such a way as to require deus ex machina to deal with it. After all whose fault is it really? The designer of Shadowdale or the designers of the module? As others (including Ed Greenwood himself, many times on the Candlekeep forum) have already replied to your 'We must get rid of Elminster or I can't run this adventure in Shadowdale" -dilemma, I have only this to say: Ed has apparently run most of the adventures in his 'Home Realms'-campaign in Shadowdale without Elminster 'spoiling' the fun for his players. Ed has (most likely) meant El to act in the role of a wise 'mentor' who steers the PCs but does not interfere overmuch in their (mis)adventures (unless the DM *really* wants to prevent a TPK, for example). You know, there are *always* some renegade Thayvian wizards who've been developing some Realms-shattering spells that demand Elminster's personal attention -- or some planar crisis which he must prevent. ;) What do you mean by 'undefeatable'? That he cannot be killed? Can you offer me a single reason why Elminster's continued existence bothers you, because you don't *HAVE* to use him as an NPC in your campaigns if you don't want to (I would never use Drizzt -- who, by the way, seems to be every bit as 'hard to kill' as Elminster ;)). Shadowdale has actually been threatened on many occasions in published Realmslore. It has never before been conquered or destroyed (until now), because it has always been one of the favourite (and 'DM-friendly') campaign starting places. It never had anything to do with "realism" (which is an odd concept anyway as we're talking about a fantasy RPG setting) or because no one came up (or dared to come up) with a suitable 'deux ex machina' to get rid of the Harpers or the Chosen in Shadowdale (until now, of course). However, I could think of a dozen ("realistic") ways to let the PCs take the spotlight, even in the case of a 'major' crisis in Shadowdale -- *without* ever resorting to using any not-so-clever deux ex machina. :)
Meldread 09-20-07, 02:12 PM	Ed has apparently run most of the adventures in his 'Home Realms'-campaign in Shadowdale without Elminster 'spoiling' the fun for his players. You can certainly run a campaign in the old Shadowdale without Elminster being a serious problem. However, if you want Zhent's to invade and take over the place - as they did - it requires some deux ex machina - as was done. Which was my point. What do you mean by 'undefeatable'? That he cannot be killed? That is somewhat of an over simplification. What I mean is that he is not meant to be killed. He may face challenges, threats, and come close to defeat, but ultimately he's designed (as a concept) to always win. It may even seem like he loses, and dies - only to be somehow magically resurrected later. Those are illusions to make Elminster appear more "realistic" but they are just that - illusions. Now, like I said, that doesn't necessarily make him a bad character. In fact, I am rather glad he has survived the Spellplague as he is somewhat of an icon of the Forgotten Realm's setting. It never had anything to do with "realism" (which is an odd concept anyway as we're talking about a fantasy RPG setting) or because no one came up (or dared to come up) with a suitable 'deux ex machina' to get rid of the Harpers or the Chosen in Shadowdale (until now, of course). That is my point, really. People complain that it isn't realistic to conquer Shadowdale and get rid of Elminster - and they are absolutely correct. It isn't realistic. However, rather than attacking the fact that it happened, I look at the situation and say, "The problem is not that it happened, but rather it was designed in a way as to make it unbelievable that it could happen." In other words, I am saying that Shadowdale as a design concept was flawed. Realistically, any town should be conquerable with enough power and resources and any character defeatable without it seeming unbelievable. When you reach a point that things become unbelievable it becomes jarring to the imagination and thus detracts from the setting. This is what happened here in this situation. Which is ultimately the reason I am pointing it out. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-20-07, 03:46 PM	You can certainly run a campaign in the old Shadowdale without Elminster being a serious problem. However, if you want Zhent's to invade and take over the place - as they did - it requires some deux ex machina - as was done. Which was my point. Where is that written? I still don't see why that must be the case. Elminster is already away from his tower most of the time. *shrug*
Butterface 09-20-07, 06:38 PM	Where is that written? I still don't see why that must be the case. Elminster is already away from his tower most of the time. *shrug* It just gets to the point where it seems silly to ignore Elminster if you don't have a solid reason for him being away. True, a temporary Zhent occupation of Shadowdale could go happen while he was on some other plane. Elminster's tower in ruins? Not so much. At some point things get bad enough (as is the case in Shadowdale: a Scouring) where if the BBGG's are able to step in, they will.