Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Simbul 02-06-07, 09:45 PM	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/fracc/978078694 I think it was a no-brainer that the adventure trilogy would end there. Its interesting how the cover differs from the listing, as in the original title is Anauroch: The Empire of Shade, and that Thomas M. Reid and Greg A. Vaughn are on the cover credits. By contrast, the listing has a much more ominous title, and only Sean K Reynolds credited on the cover. Also, the illustration (which is very good) does bear a very striking resemblance to the (theatrically deleted) scene from Return of the King where Gandalf the White is confronted by the Witch-King of the Nazgűl.
Myssa Rei 02-07-07, 12:28 PM	Interesting indeed. So in the end is it a throwdown between the PCs and the Shades? I really must run these adventures through my DM once all three are released... Though I'll probably have to suspend my disbelief a bit with the second part of the adventure series (Shadowdale).
MerrikCale 02-07-07, 01:12 PM	hopefully, all the shades will be gone when this is over
MarkusTay63 02-07-07, 01:46 PM	Hopefully, we'll have a new Realms when this is over. :P Not too much, but change Aunoroch into something... else. I've seen people do it as a 'Mournland' a'la Eberron, and as a great big new sea (I even found a map online of that one). Whatever goes there I don't care as long as it's not the inapropriate desert anymore. And send the Bedine back to Zakhara!
GothicDan 02-07-07, 03:03 PM	Hopefully Shade goes away.
MerrikCale 02-07-07, 09:13 PM	Hopefully Shade goes away. copycat
MarkusTay63 02-07-07, 10:35 PM	hopefully, all the shades will be gone when this is over Hopefully Shade goes away.I hope Shade goes away... Saaay... is there an echo in here? :rolleyes: I have seen many people on these boards like and dislike many various things, and often everyone disagrees about just about everything... except this. We have found COMMON GROUND at last. :D
BrianCritchley 02-08-07, 12:10 AM	I'll be the voice of dissent, Shade can stay, but hopefully the shadow weave goes away. I don't mind Shade (at the very least it gives a canon epic level challange to FR) but the shadow weave IMHO hurts the setting more then it adds to it
see 02-08-07, 02:36 AM	I don't mind the Shadow Weave, it just should be under the control of the Mistress of All Magic. And, as suggested by the F&P entry, such a takeover should move Mystra from good to neutral.
Stigger 02-08-07, 08:17 AM	You know, for me at least, it just feels like the Realms is approaching a point where Evil is just becoming this overwhelming thing that's looming behind every corner... starting to remind me of the malaise that came over the World of Darkness series just before they ended it. I understand that we need Evil Afoot to vanquish and all, but with a title like that, I can't help but wonder if Evil Afoot is going to become Evil Ascendent. Dark is all well and good at times, but it just feels like the lightheartedness that seemed to give some relief to the setting is just fading off, in favor of some sense of grim 'realism' that I'm just getting sick of... Hope I'm wrong about that.
Old Sparky 02-08-07, 10:12 AM	Not too much, but change Aunoroch into something... else. I've seen people do it as a 'Mournland' a'la Eberron, and as a great big new sea (I even found a map online of that one). Whatever goes there I don't care as long as it's not the inapropriate desert anymore. And send the Bedine back to Zakhara! Inappropriate? Feh. I like the desert where and why it is. I would like to see Shade move back to the plane of shadow... but not destroyed.
Red_Wizard 02-08-07, 10:55 AM	I don't want shade to go, and don't want the SW removed. I Want something Geographically changing, without being another damn RSE. Have Cormyr try to lash out at them, and maybe fall. Or have some battle that allows one country to extend it's borders to include anothers. I just don't see the point in bringing something in, of potentially great story plots, and source of immense historical value, and then just snuffing it for no reason. I'm really not sure what people hate about Shade, so i'll say no more until people point something out. But, I also see no reason in the answr to a problem being removing it entirely. Look at RL, how many things are there right now that are F'ed up, and while simply making them disapear would be nice, it doesn't work like that realistically.
Uinidal 02-08-07, 11:45 AM	First of all it's almost impossible to have a trilogy of 480 pages that will end with "evil" prevailing.But it's true that the recent history of the realms up to 73-74 was not the best period for the good guys.this though seems to start changing with major events susch as the reclaiming of Myth Dranor,this thing with the High Moor etc.Faerun is a big place,yes,with lot of dangers but there are not that many nations that pose a threat to the world so removing one of them will greatly change the balance.I believe that it will probably be a big strike against Shadows and Shar but not up to the point of removing the Shadows out of the game.we shall see anyway.
MerrikCale 02-08-07, 12:19 PM	I would like to add another two cents. I like the shadow weave but I still say dump shade.
Red_Wizard 02-08-07, 12:23 PM	Might I inquire as to why you wish Shade to be removed? Just to start getting an idea of what people feel is wrong with it?
MarkusTay63 02-08-07, 12:34 PM	Red_Wizard, why would you like a city that is basically just a culture of vile, evil wizards... oh :eek: Nevermind... I just don't see the point in bringing something in, of potentially great story plots, and source of immense historical value, and then just snuffing it for no reason. I'm really not sure what people hate about Shade,The first part of that answers the second part. People hate it BECAUSE they just brought it in to snuff it for no reason. If they would create RSE's like YOU suggest, no one would complain (that much). Use the things we already have in play to create mega-plots, don't just say 'Abra-Cadabra' and make a Horde or a city or whatever you need for a story just appear out of thin air. It is too fake, even for a fantasy setting. Look at RL, how many things are there right now that are F'ed up, and while simply making them disapear would be nice, it doesn't work like that realistically.But in the real world, they usually don't just 'appear', either. Tsunamis aside, we usually see something coming, cities don't just 'pop-up'. I haven't read the series, because from what I've heard I know I will hate it, but had Shade just showed up and played nice, even for just a little while, it would have been more believable. Basically the designers are using an entire city as a monster encounter, not for any 'historic value'. But it's true that the recent history of the realms up to 73-74 was not the best period for the good guys.this though seems to start changing with major events such as the reclaiming of Myth Dranor,And some of us would say that the Elves returning are just one more disaster. ;)
Red_Wizard 02-08-07, 12:41 PM	Red_Wizard, why would you like a city that is basically just a culture of vile, evil wizards... oh :eek: Nevermind... I like it because of it's Netherese origens. Same reason I like Hulruaa, just Shade has a flying city. ;) The first part of that answers the second part. People hate it BECAUSE they just brought it in to snuff it for no reason. If they would create RSE's like YOU suggest, no one would complain (that much). Use the things we already have in play to create mega-plots, don't just say 'Abra-Cadabra' and make a Horde or a city or whatever you need for a story just appear out of thin air. It is too fake, even for a fantasy setting. See my next responce. But in the real world, they usually don't just 'appear', either. Tsunamis aside, we usually see something coming, cities don't just 'pop-up'. I haven't read the series, because from what I've heard I know I will hate it, but had Shade just showed up and played nice, even for just a little while, it would have been more believable. Basically the designers are using an entire city as a monster encounter, not for any 'historic value'. That's where magic comes in. Had you read the novels, you would see that the city was drawn back through by a series of events put into play by Melegaunt, and was not actually something that popped in for no reason. Also, if you read, you will see that the city was indeed helping fight the phaerimm for the first part, and it wasn't until the chosen turned on them for melting the high ice, that Shade retliated, and became a secondary BBEG. Using my RL analogy, this is more like a small country, suddenly gaining Nuclear Weapons. You don't know it's coming, as they don't even have a Nuclear program. But suddenly someone gives them the weapons, and crap, now they're a threat And some of us would say that the Elves returning are just one more disaster. ;) That, I will agree with. Makes their leaving completely pointless.
MerrikCale 02-08-07, 12:42 PM	Might I inquire as to why you wish Shade to be removed? Just to start getting an idea of what people feel is wrong with it? I never liked them. I thought they were contrived and boring from the start. Part of it has to do with the novels that introduced them I suppose. Part of it is I don't like the feel of them as adversaries.
Uinidal 02-08-07, 02:19 PM	And some of us would say that the Elves returning are just one more disaster. ;)[/QUOTE] Well i see there is a point in that but for me it's a change from the Tolkien tradition where elves of any world after some time decline and leave their place to humans.since i'm an elf fun i was always left with a bitter taste of the good old days that will never come back so a come back is fine with me :)
MarkusTay63 02-08-07, 02:41 PM	That's where magic comes in. Had you read the novels, you would see that the city was drawn back through by a series of events put into play by Melegaunt, and was not actually something that popped in for no reason. Also, if you read, you will see that the city was indeed helping fight the phaerimm for the first part, and it wasn't until the chosen turned on them for melting the high ice, that Shade retliated, and became a secondary BBEG.Okay, didn't know they were good guys at first, that makes a little more sense. I got the idea from other threads that they just showed up and started shooting. Didn't they appear over Tilverton though, and anhialate that city? :confused: Well i see there is a point in that but for me it's a change from the Tolkien tradition where elves of any world after some time decline and leave their place to humans.since i'm an elf fun i was always left with a bitter taste of the good old days that will never come back so a come back is fine with me :) That, I will agree with. Makes their leaving completely pointless.Exactly. If I was an Elf and I been spending the last few years heading toward Evermeet, and all of a sudden I'm told "forget it, go back", I'd be pretty pist off. It made the entire retreat pointless, just like the new 'Elf realm' is making Evermeet pointless. Change for the sake of change isn't neccessarily good. Also, Ed had the Elves in retreat from the beginning, it was an integral part of the setting. Faerun is supposed to be covered with Forgotten Realms, not 'Realms that were vacated for whatever reason until said owners show back up'. Lost civilizations need to STAY LOST. Too many of them have been making a comeback, and it is in total disregard for the ORIGINAL flavor of the setting. :banghead: One last thing, isn't there at least one more Netherease city 'floating' around somewhere? And not the crashed one in Seros (although I think one landed in Halruua log ago, gonna have to check that).
Stigger 02-08-07, 03:36 PM	One oddly enough who's got Selune as a patron... Selunarra or something like that. Think they mentioned they were part celestial or some such... just makes me ill thinking about it. Almost as bad as the whole Blackstaff ending... bah! Starting to feel like a soap opera.
Red_Wizard 02-08-07, 03:39 PM	Okay, didn't know they were good guys at first, that makes a little more sense. I got the idea from other threads that they just showed up and started shooting. Didn't they appear over Tilverton though, and anhialate that city? :confused: No, they appeared back over the Dire Wood where Karsus's remains sit. They reappeared with the aid of the Karse Stone, It's heavy magic being the key for them being able to transit back from the Plane of Shadows. Tilverton was a separate issue later in the struggle, after Galaeron decided he was going to reveal the Shadovars plans of melting the high ice, to restore the anauroch to the lush land it once was. This melting was causing extreme weather fronts all through the Realms below (and perhaps above) the melting points. Cormyr and Shade were allies (with varrying trust issues on both fronts), until this event. After the melting was revealed, the chosen took it upon themselves to remove the shadow blankets causing the melting. The true evil nature of the Shades Melting is open for debate, but they did not make the first strike on any but the Phaerimm. One last thing, isn't there at least one more Netherease city 'floating' around somewhere? And not the crashed one in Seros (although I think one landed in Halruua log ago, gonna have to check that). Hmmm, not that I recall, unless you refer to the City of Undrentide from the first expansion to NWN, but that was raised only long enough to fall again. Also, there was no city that made it's way to Hulruaa. Mystra only managed to save three of the falling cities, and those she set down gently where they fell. The Netherese made it to what is now Hulruaa via Sky ship, thus the continued tradition. This however was difficult, as they had trouble navigating the mountain range around them (The same poor maneuverability that makes the Skyships poor for combat, made entering this region all the more difficult)
GothicDan 02-08-07, 03:40 PM	As perhaps the foremost Sun Elf fan on these boards, I have to say that I hate the entire 'new Myth Drannor' thing. The Sun Elves didn't LIKE Myth Drannor towards the end, and the many of the most important ones left long before the fall. And the fact that the way WotC's been portraying Sun Elves lately (old school, incredibly honorable Durothil Clan = sneaky, vile bigots?) makes me not much of a fan of those currently 'ruling' in Myth Drannor. As to the Shades.... Well, full of conflicts with canon, and the entire theme is a blatant copycat of the Weave. And the fact that Faerun already has MORE THAN ENOUGH Epic Evil spellcasters around, who have unique histories and backgrounds, and aren't just a bunch of contrivances made up to balance the supposed onslaught of Good Archmages (Chosen)... The entire theme of the Shadow Weave/Shades just seems like it's fixing some delusional problem that doesn't, and never has, existed.
Stigger 02-08-07, 03:59 PM	Page 109, LEoF mentions the Selunite enclave.
Red_Wizard 02-08-07, 04:04 PM	Indeed, I wasn't counting it though as it isn't on toril (or really in realmspace as the inhabitants are considered nonnative outsiders). But yes, counting outside the box, there are 2 surviving cities :).
createvmind 02-08-07, 04:13 PM	The shadovar were manipulating folks well before the return of shade as in the short story of the creation of the black swords. Shade had no intention of honoring any agreements if you truly read the novels nor any problem abducting and or destroying whoever stood in their way. It's only their ancient hatred for the Phaerimm that that whole scenario went down the way it did. And that was orchestrated by a Shadovar as well, a whammy sleight of hand if you ask me, cost Evereska almost all their high mages and then some. MY only issue with the whole scenario was the fact that they had to remove the Simbul and Elminster from the equation or the city would indeed be so much rubble right now. Not the the shadovar would be destroyed but they would definitely be minus a floating city. Ervis Cale and Co. are currently giving as good as they get in their first rounder with the shadovar. We'll see what happens with that.
BrennonGoldeye 02-08-07, 05:18 PM	I hope Shade goes away... Saaay... is there an echo in here? :rolleyes: I have seen many people on these boards like and dislike many various things, and often everyone disagrees about just about everything... except this. We have found COMMON GROUND at last. :D I wave my parts at COMMON GROUND. Shade is a sweet little twist, as is her only remaining sister. All the hubub about Shar vs Mystra forgets who the real fight is between. Some call it cliche, I call it planning. Exactly. If I was an Elf and I been spending the last few years heading toward Evermeet, and all of a sudden I'm told "forget it, go back", I'd be pretty pist off. It made the entire retreat pointless, just like the new 'Elf realm' is making Evermeet pointless. Change for the sake of change isn't neccessarily good. Also, Ed had the Elves in retreat from the beginning, it was an integral part of the setting. Faerun is supposed to be covered with Forgotten Realms, not 'Realms that were vacated for whatever reason until said owners show back up'. Lost civilizations need to STAY LOST. Too many of them have been making a comeback, and it is in total disregard for the ORIGINAL flavor of the setting. :banghead: I've never heard a demonic whine sound quite so human. I guess the elder empires had nothing to do with all that flavor..... One last thing, isn't there at least one more Netherease city 'floating' around somewhere? And not the crashed one in Seros (although I think one landed in Halruua log ago, gonna have to check that). Yes, as has been stated, her name is Selunarra, or Opus in the Loross tongue. As perhaps the foremost Sun Elf fan on these boards, I have to say that I hate the entire 'new Myth Drannor' thing. The Sun Elves didn't LIKE Myth Drannor towards the end, and the many of the most important ones left long before the fall. And the fact that the way WotC's been portraying Sun Elves lately (old school, incredibly honorable Durothil Clan = sneaky, vile bigots?) makes me not much of a fan of those currently 'ruling' in Myth Drannor. They didn't like Myth Drannor towards the end because they were bigots. After awhile of being ostracized one tends to become sneaky and vile.:P I do love the Gold Elves, but all that they reap is what they sowed. An honorable race(several RW examples pop to mind) is only as honorable as their government. Most of the elves have wised up and stay communal or allow the silver the regalia. As experience shows is wise.;)
Red_Wizard 02-08-07, 05:19 PM	The shadovar were manipulating folks well before the return of shade as in the short story of the creation of the black swords. That was a separate thing all together. Melevaunt was creating something for himself, that was outside of the politics of Shade. Shade had no intention of honoring any agreements if you truly read the novels nor any problem abducting and or destroying whoever stood in their way. Not something that was being argued against. The point was, that their story had more depth than simply appearing, and vanishing again. It's only their ancient hatred for the Phaerimm that that whole scenario went down the way it did. And that was orchestrated by a Shadovar as well, a whammy sleight of hand if you ask me, cost Evereska almost all their high mages and then some. Quite well exicuted if you ask me. They want what was theirs back, and are willing to do what it takes to make it so. MY only issue with the whole scenario was the fact that they had to remove the Simbul and Elminster from the equation or the city would indeed be so much rubble right now. Not the the shadovar would be destroyed but they would definitely be minus a floating city. I stongly doubt that with the edition of Elminster and the Simbul that the city would have been much worse off than it was. Besides, Elminster in Hell made for an interesting read, so I didn't mind him not leaping into the fray.
MarkusTay63 02-08-07, 05:53 PM	Indeed, I wasn't counting it though as it isn't on toril (or really in realmspace as the inhabitants are considered nonnative outsiders). But yes, counting outside the box, there are 2 surviving cities :).And then there are the surviving Archmages, such as Aumvor, Larloch, and Ioulaum (isn't there one also in Halruua?), dontcha think they would be VERY interested in Shade? And my favorite Archwizard, the Chronomancer, would be the EASIEST to pull out of a hat. Time travel... HELLO! How hard would it have been for him to send his entire enclave forward in time just before it hit the ground? Supposedly he died of a small wound that took eight years to kill him. I think, given that much time, he could have easily cheated death. After all, he is THE ONLY Netherease Archmage to have a supplement name after him (Chronomancer, TSR9506). Suppose he is really the mysterious figure known only as the Premier Temporus, who runs the Gaurdians from the Sronghold at the end of time? Perhaps the Maelstrom that the Stronghold itself resides in was caused by the hole the Chronomancer 'punched through time' to save his beloved city, and now he must forever act as its gaurdian to prevent others from duplicating his 'crime'? Who knows, maybe the Imaskarii will show back up from one of THEIR alternate dimensions and enslave everyone, including the Shades. :P Ya never know.
MarkusTay63 02-08-07, 06:08 PM	Sorry for the DP. I've never heard a demonic whine sound quite so human. I guess the elder empires had nothing to do with all that flavor..... Yes... FLAVOR, not in-your-face, here I am, come and get me. I loved reading about ancient Netheril and Imaskar, but that is how they should remain, not showing back up to 'muddy the waters'. There are enough cultures and plots in the current realms to keep everyone happy, we don't need throw-backs (except for the occassional Archlich or three). I don't consider myself a demon BTW, I don't even know exactly what my avatar is (someone mentioned it once, I forget). If you notice, I'm one of the few people who do not pretend to be something I'm not, I use my real name on EVERY forum I join. I just choose that Avatar because it looked the closest to my real self. Yes... including the horns. Trust me, you don't wanna know. ;) :P
ClobberinTime 02-08-07, 06:18 PM	Personally I like shade, doesn't the netheril box spell out that their enclave was transported to the plane of shadow. So the seeds were already there. Realistically though they would have come back after like 300 years and not 1600 years, that is my major beef. My second complaint was (before the new Cale books) that shade would make a grab at some currently existing country to be a client state sooner rather than later, which has come to pass. My third thing will be that Shade should prevail in Sembia, and keep control of the country there for the forseeable future. Also: Anauroch is absolutely central to the history of the FR and is perfect. However they should have explored how a western european type culture would adapt to a desert environment instead of foisting the bedine on us. Anauroch should be full of Uthgardt like barbarians who have adapted to a very harsh area of Toril.
createvmind 02-08-07, 09:32 PM	Red Wizard, the city almost fell in the battle with 2 of the weakest spell casting chosen involved, you doubt it would have fell with the two most powerful involved as well? Why? You doubt El who has been dealing with Shadow weave magic and casters since the others were little girls in his care doesn't have spells designed to combat them now 100's of years later? And my post was more to the point that they have no real diplomatic intentions that don't involve them dominating the situation. ClobberinTime Anauroch is absolutely central to the history of the FR and is perfect. However they should have explored how a western european type culture would adapt to a desert environment instead of foisting the bedine on us. Anauroch should be full of Uthgardt like barbarians who have adapted to a very harsh area of Toril. Scantily clad Barbarians running around in the North I can see, managing to flourish in a desert I have never heard of , not that we should be comparing our history with Faerun as Greenwood has stated there is no intentional similarities between the two. I just don't see Barbarians running across sandy dunes bellowing their lungs out and without collapsing from heat stroke soon after. They have no Hide, Move Silently, or Track which would be essential to catching prey to sustain them, I'm sure some Barbarians have tried probably and failed. In fact I'll post to Greenwood to see what he says.
BrennonGoldeye 02-09-07, 08:44 AM	I don't consider myself a demon BTW, I don't even know exactly what my avatar is (someone mentioned it once, I forget). If you notice, I'm one of the few people who do not pretend to be something I'm not, I use my real name on EVERY forum I join. I just choose that Avatar because it looked the closest to my real self. Yes... including the horns. Trust me, you don't wanna know. Your avatar is a Ghour Demon, 20 muscular feet of Baphomet's best bred stock. As to the horns, I have a belt sander you could borrow.;)
Fabius Maximus 02-09-07, 08:49 AM	I don't think it will be very hard to change the Bedine from a zhakaran to an uthgardtian background. The name could stay the same, the mistrust of magic too. The rest could be taken from Dark Sun or Sandstorm material. The only thing that must be removed is the language. It's actually an interesting idea.
Xavier_of_Cormyr 02-09-07, 09:36 AM	i suggest if anyone has not read it already, to take a look at the Realms of Shadow paperback. Some nice short stories involving the shadovar, shadow weave, and shade enclave. anyway, i don't see what all the fuss is about. yeah, yeah, you hate the shades, shadow weave, whatever... keeps plotlines fresh. for years everyone salivated for all things Netherese. now we got something HUGE, and everyone moans about it. :confused:
BrennonGoldeye 02-09-07, 10:14 AM	anyway, i don't see what all the fuss is about. yeah, yeah, you hate the shades, shadow weave, whatever... keeps plotlines fresh. for years everyone salivated for all things Netherese. now we got something HUGE, and everyone moans about it. :confused: Amen.:)
Dark Wizard 02-09-07, 10:21 AM	anyway, i don't see what all the fuss is about. yeah, yeah, you hate the shades, shadow weave, whatever... keeps plotlines fresh. This plot is merely ... okay. It plays out very much like the Light/Dark side of the force in Star Wars. It's good when Star Wars does it, since it's built into the setting mythology, but for FR it seems mundane. for years everyone salivated for all things Netherese. now we got something HUGE, and everyone moans about it. :confused: That's the point. Actual Netherese material/lore/people/places is best left as something to drool over. Once we have it, it starts to lose its charm.
MarkusTay63 02-09-07, 02:16 PM	That's the point. Actual Netherese material/lore/people/places is best left as something to drool over. Once we have it, it starts to lose its charm.Exactly so. Forgotten Realms should STAY forgotten, not re-appear a thousand or so years later.
Red_Wizard 02-09-07, 02:56 PM	Red Wizard, the city almost fell in the battle with 2 of the weakest spell casting chosen involved, you doubt it would have fell with the two most powerful involved as well? Why? Cause it is a novel, and it wasn't written by Ed Greenwood. Which makes those characters secondary, so the novel even with more aid, IMO would have finished the same. Also, had you gone purely by stats to figure this out, then again they would have lost, as the chosen don't even have comparable caster levels to the Princes, and Lord Telemont. Not saying it's right, just saying it's most likely how it would have worked. After all, supposedly the Simbul alone can destroy Thay, so a single floating city of Shadow casters, too whom her magicical energy responds negatively, should have no problem at all bringing it down without even lifting a finger. You doubt El who has been dealing with Shadow weave magic and casters since the others were little girls in his care doesn't have spells designed to combat them now 100's of years later? I don't think they were really taking El's experience into account, as he seemed thoroughly fooled in the Direwood, and was less than prepared when they met him at his tower. This being said, with the addition of the spell to create a dead shadow magic zone, a person of even insignificant level only needs to cast it upon their Mythallar, and down comes the city. And my post was more to the point that they have no real diplomatic intentions that don't involve them dominating the situation. Indeed. But they put on a good front for everyone involved, right up until Galaerons betrayal. So had he not, most likely they would have all gone on contentedly ignorant, and the Phaerimm fiasco would have been done sooner. Also, for the point of Markus not reading the novels, their intentions were not important. What was outwardly displayed at first, despite hidden agendas, makes their return more believable than them simply appearing, and attacking.
Xavier_of_Cormyr 02-09-07, 05:56 PM	I think the Shadovar make a nice contrast to the BBGG's (Big Bad Good Guys) that the Chosen of Mystra have become. Without complex antagonists (and people downplay the shadovar in that respect, they're not barbarians looking to rape & pillage, their goals are far more insidious, and we've only seen the tip of the iceberg) the Chosen & friends would turn FR into RPG Candyland. Think about it, a group of uber powerful "do-gooders" who in the popular opinion on all of these message boards, could & should walk around smiting anyone who doesn't fall into line. Face it, the cliche good vs. evil struggle in FR has been & always will be that although the forces for good may be more powerful, their is simply more of the bad guys. So whatever your opinion is on the Shades & their magic, just don't write them off as a bad temp plot hook, or a marketing strategy RSE (once again... Candyland the FR ain't & shouldn't be)
Dmetrios 02-09-07, 06:14 PM	I think that the return of the archwizards (and the Imaskaris too) are a Shar's plan. Remember that they avoid destruction thanks to Shar (idem for Imaskari which remained hidden from thousands years without problems). there seem be too many coincidences not to suspect a plot against mystra, after the return of Bane and the Cyric's affair that weakened her, a new threat take place and attack her directly : the shadow weave. Maybe some of you are too young to remember that Forgotten Realms was, is and will be forever an epic world. Everybody who say the opposite should read again the history. (sorry for my english, i'm french.....I know it's my only excuse)
Lord Karsus 02-11-07, 12:32 AM	Who knows, maybe the Imaskarii will show back up from one of THEIR alternate dimensions and enslave everyone, including the Shades. :P -Don't worry. As per Darkvision, the Deep Imaskari are planning on resettling the suraface world, as their city was ravaged by the pseudodivine entity known as Pandorym. -Yeah, I know...:rolleyes:
MarkusTay63 02-11-07, 04:23 AM	So all I want to know is - When are Narfell and Raumathar making a comeback? After all, if we're having a party we might as well invite everyone. :rolleye2: :pile: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
MerrikCale 02-11-07, 07:33 AM	-Yeah, I know...:rolleyes: I'm with you
Alediran 02-11-07, 12:02 PM	I think the Shadovar make a nice contrast to the BBGG's (Big Bad Good Guys) that the Chosen of Mystra have become. Without complex antagonists (and people downplay the shadovar in that respect, they're not barbarians looking to rape & pillage, their goals are far more insidious, and we've only seen the tip of the iceberg) the Chosen & friends would turn FR into RPG Candyland. Think about it, a group of uber powerful "do-gooders" who in the popular opinion on all of these message boards, could & should walk around smiting anyone who doesn't fall into line. Face it, the cliche good vs. evil struggle in FR has been & always will be that although the forces for good may be more powerful, their is simply more of the bad guys. So whatever your opinion is on the Shades & their magic, just don't write them off as a bad temp plot hook, or a marketing strategy RSE (once again... Candyland the FR ain't & shouldn't be) Read Elminster's quote in the begining of FRCS
Red_Wizard 02-11-07, 12:05 PM	Granted the name sported alittle more cheese than I like, and the book itself was only saved by it being on the Imaskari. That being said, of all returns that are planned this one seems the most likely, given their wish to do so when they were forced to retreat beneath the world. Personally I like the returns, so long as they are small, kept modern, and with perfect explanation. As for Narfells return, i'm thinking something is going to crop up via the citadel of conjurers in the next little while. Eltabb has been abit to quiet ;).
bitter thorn 02-11-07, 12:37 PM	OK, the first one is for levels 4-8, but what about the next 2? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/fracc/978078694 I think it was a no-brainer that the adventure trilogy would end there. Its interesting how the cover differs from the listing, as in the original title is Anauroch: The Empire of Shade, and that Thomas M. Reid and Greg A. Vaughn are on the cover credits. By contrast, the listing has a much more ominous title, and only Sean K Reynolds credited on the cover. Also, the illustration (which is very good) does bear a very striking resemblance to the (theatrically deleted) scene from Return of the King where Gandalf the White is confronted by the Witch-King of the Nazgűl.
createvmind 02-11-07, 01:22 PM	Hey Red, I believe clearly that Elminster was not so much surprised but clearly aware of what would happen if the magics clashed which they did and thus his response. Stats mean nothing to me, they mess things up more than anything else, in Candlekeep ED explain how Dennings and Baker and all defer to him so as not to detract from the Realms when writing novels. So thats not a sound basis for stating what would or wouldn't have happened simply because Ed didn't write it. And lastly, the Simbul of them all I believe would be the most reckless had she been involved and gladly torn a rift right on top of the karsestone which would have resulted in the city falling regardless. Remember both sides were conscious of their clashing magic destroying their immediate surroundings and possibly each other, the Simbul IMHO probably would have trusted in one of her many contingencies to save her and done it anyway, especially if Chosen arms were hacked off and given a what for as in the novel which she would have been aware of. The other Chosen probably would have been trying to hold her back, to no avail, a story in the lastest realms novel with her and Larloch I think support my "What if" prediction.
createvmind 02-11-07, 01:30 PM	The Imaskarii return went off very low key which is good so far, the plagent thing was too "borg" for me but they picked an obscure location so I guess it's doable. Maybe will see some of these Imaskari super artifacts and weapons find their way into the wrong or the right hands in the next few years. I would assume word of these crystal grafts will eventually reach some curious Thayan or the ears of several known organizations alive and dead alike who will dedicate time to finding and piercing these dimensional spaces to plunder. Imaskari will have to do some GPS type magic to their own to prevent them from falling into wrong hands and being mind reamed to no end. Or the Imaskari leaders will have to make sure they mind ream their own first to prevent knowledge from being taken that way.
MarkusTay63 02-11-07, 01:56 PM	Okay, never even heard of Darkvision, these novels are coming out too fast, I can't even keep up to date anymore. :( Can someone tell me, in a spoiler, where the Imaskari made their reappearance? I always hated their location in the Underdark, I think whoever made that map must have skipped readin LEoF (or at least didn't care where things were on the surface). I won't even get into how the Drow were cursed way up in the North, and then went underground and appeared back in the south to found their first kingdom. Amazing how it's stated that it is VERY difficult to travel even to a nearby city, but Dark Elves cross half the planet underground ALL of the time. Rant Over. I like the Imaskari a lot, but now that they are making a comeback they're going to get stated, and probably poorly, with a handful of crappy PrCs. I've always wanted to see them again, but now I'm not so sure it's a good idea.
Red_Wizard 02-11-07, 03:18 PM	Hey Red, Stats mean nothing to me, they mess things up more than anything else, in Candlekeep ED explain how Dennings and Baker and all defer to him so as not to detract from the Realms when writing novels. So thats not a sound basis for stating what would or wouldn't have happened simply because Ed didn't write it. I agree, but in stories that are written things often happen that can't be explained, that are soley the will of the author. So even were the two others there, it was obvious the city wasn't meant to fall, so chances are it would have staid up regardless. Which is why I mentioned the stats, as to add them in via a similar scenario, you would have to be looking at it from a numbers POV, which then becomes silly and self defeating. And lastly, the Simbul of them all I believe would be the most reckless had she been involved and gladly torn a rift right on top of the karsestone which would have resulted in the city falling regardless. Remember both sides were conscious of their clashing magic destroying their immediate surroundings and possibly each other, the Simbul IMHO probably would have trusted in one of her many contingencies to save her and done it anyway, especially if Chosen arms were hacked off and given a what for as in the novel which she would have been aware of. The other Chosen probably would have been trying to hold her back, to no avail, a story in the lastest realms novel with her and Larloch I think support my "What if" prediction. Indeed, with the way the Simbul is written in novels, alone she could have ported into the city, crushed the Mythal with a word, and been gone again before Telemont could pass wind in surprise. Ultimatly though, when it comes to discussing books, saying what if becomes a difficult thing to implement when the author has a clearly set goal. Can someone tell me, in a spoiler, where the Imaskari made their reappearance? Technically only two returned for the novel. One had been traveling the surface for 5 years, and the other tailing her for the final few months. Ultimatly they wound up back in the Raurin, where they discoved the Purple Tower of the Emporer. After defeating Pandorym, the main character decided she would lead a group of like minded Imaskari to the surface, to re settle the Tower, and slowly reclaim what was theirs.
createvmind 02-11-07, 03:36 PM	I agree with you on all points, again my "what if" scenario.
MarkusTay63 02-11-07, 04:31 PM	Thanks Red, all I can do is shake my head in wonder. :nonono: I hope that if they do any source on this, they move Deep Imaskari under the raurin where it belongs. The area known as Deep Raurin doesn't even have anything in it, and is completely ignored in Underdark, so there was NO logical explanation for why the Imaskari had to flee so far. You know... through the UNDERDARK, that is supposedly so hard to travel through... :rolleye2: On topic (I think) - They way she is written, the Simbul could probably take over the world. The way she mesmerizes her opponents with her gorgeous billowing hair is truly epic! I think someone should slap the Crown of Thorns down on HER head and then we'd really be in for a party! :D
createvmind 02-11-07, 05:50 PM	The way the Simbul is written she can definitely not take over the world do to her inability to control her emotions. She has torn through many a plane more than once at the loss of a loved one and is always in danger of snuffing herself out by expending what she is in battle which she has also almost done several times. Of the chosen I would say she is probably the most reined in due to her emotional state by Mystra which is why many a red wizard live to this day. Leaving them be as a whole is a direct order from Mystra which the Simbul is not too happy with. She is also the one most likely to go the route of former fallen chosen should something happen to Elminster or her remaining sisters.
Red_Wizard 02-11-07, 05:51 PM	I agree with you on all points, again my "what if" scenario. Well, the Simbul has been brought down by her arrogance before, and when things look bad she generally resorts to her Silverfire. But, against Telemont who is older, higher caster level, and based on the novel immune to silver fire, I think that even with the two more added, the city could still potentially have survived. The chosen vs. the Princes of Shade, and Telemont in their home city, even near the Mythallar, would be an interesting fight (done unbiased), but I believe while close would ultimatly leave the Realms without Mystras chosen. Thats how I see how that fight should have gone. But instead both theoretically won. The chosen messed up Shades Mythallar, and badly damaged the city, but the city was saved, and the Mythallar i'm sure by now fully repaired.
createvmind 02-11-07, 05:53 PM	Some of whats under the Raurin may be NDA or not mentioned as of yet due to not being explored by anyone who was able to return with information. The great ice has ecology and creatures, surely something is going on in that once magically rich location.
MarkusTay63 02-11-07, 06:17 PM	Great Ice? :confused:
Red_Wizard 02-11-07, 06:33 PM	Great Glacier, or the High Ice
Lord Karsus 02-11-07, 06:49 PM	The chosen vs. the Princes of Shade, and Telemont in their home city, even near the Mythallar, would be an interesting fight (done unbiased), but I believe while close would ultimatly leave the Realms without Mystras chosen. -Eh...Remember, Mystra has quite a few Chosen. We always just think of the Seven Sisters, Elminster and Khelben, but she does have others.
Lord Karsus 02-11-07, 06:50 PM	Personally I like shade, doesn't the netheril box spell out that their enclave was transported to the plane of shadow. So the seeds were already there. Realistically though they would have come back after like 300 years and not 1600 years, that is my major beef. -They actually did return to the Prime shortly after the Fall. But, just as soon as they came back, they left again.
Red_Wizard 02-11-07, 06:51 PM	-Eh...Remember, Mystra has quite a few Chosen. We always just think of the Seven Sisters, Elminster and Khelben, but she does have others. Indeed, but for arguments sake, i'm only referring to the well known ones who were there, plus the two in question :)
MarkusTay63 02-11-07, 06:54 PM	Great Glacier, or the High IceThats what I thought, but then what the hell did that have to do with the Deep Raurin? :confused: -They actually did return to the Prime shortly after the Fall. But, just as soon as they came back, they left again.Didn't like who was living in the 'old neighbohood'? ;)
Lord Karsus 02-11-07, 06:58 PM	Didn't like who was living in the 'old neighbohood'? ;) -The Irish must've moved in...:shifty: -I just like making Irish jokes, that's all. No offense meant. Indeed, but for arguments sake, i'm only referring to the well know ones who were there, plus the two in question :) -There's more than just two, but I know what you mean.
Red_Wizard 02-11-07, 07:11 PM	-There's more than just two, but I know what you mean. Yeah, I meant El, and The Simbul as the two in question. The ones not in shade during the Mythalar battle I was omitting :)
MarkusTay63 02-11-07, 07:18 PM	-The Irish must've moved in...:shifty: -I just like making Irish jokes, that's all. No offense meant.Okay, that was UNCALLED for. :headexplo How can you make light of the single most maligned, conquered, and enslaved race on Earth? And if your a Braveheart fan, all the more reason to love 'em. ;) I'm Irish/German BTW, so I spend half my time making Beer, and the other half drinking it. :D
Lord Karsus 02-11-07, 07:18 PM	Yeah, I meant El, and The Simbul as the two in question. The ones not in shade during the Mythalar battle I was omitting :) -Oh, oh, oh...Gotcha. Well, if it were those two against all of the Princes of Shade, plus the High Prince, on Shade itself? Yeah, I'd have to agree with you. Or, they all might settle their differences without it all coming to blows, and would instead have High Tea and crumpets.
Red_Wizard 02-11-07, 07:43 PM	:ahem:Nothing wrong with Tea and Crumpets :waits:
MerrikCale 02-11-07, 08:55 PM	And if your a Braveheart fan, all the more reason to love 'em. ;) Braveheart was Scottish
Lord Karsus 02-11-07, 10:39 PM	Braveheart was Scottish :rofl: How can you make light of the single most maligned, conquered, and enslaved race on Earth? I'm Irish/German BTW, so I spend half my time making Beer, and the other half drinking it. :D -Not to get too off-topic, but did you ever see that Family Guy episode, that featured the ancient Irish? :)
MarkusTay63 02-12-07, 02:21 AM	Braveheart was ScottishActually, Mel Gibson is Australian. The character he portrayed was Scottish. I, on the other hand, was referring to neither. I was referring to the movie, and although the Scottsman were mildly interesting, I thought the one Mic stole the show. "My Ireland" Didn't you just love it when the Irish switched sides in the middle of the battle? The scotts were smart enough to bring better booze. ;) -Not to get too off-topic, but did you ever see that Family Guy episode, that featured the ancient Irish? :)If it was the one that was on tonight, then yes. (The one where he goes to find his 'real' father?) I love Family Guy - Peter: "Lets not deny our heritages. You're Jewish... you're good with money. I'm Irish... I drink, and ban Homosexuals from marching in my parade." Figure you'd appreciate the double-edged humor in that one. ;)
Stigger 02-12-07, 07:34 AM	Dunno... kinda doubt the Irish qualify as the single most maligned, conquered, and enslaved race on Earth to be honest.... they still have a Nation, they still are allowed to practice their culture, they still have a culture period... doubt that really stands up in comparison to more than a few African, American, or Asian peoples who ran afoul of European Colonialization... :P
Red_Wizard 02-12-07, 10:26 AM	If it was the one that was on tonight, then yes. (The one where he goes to find his 'real' father?) I love that show - Peter: "Lets not deny our heritages. You're Jewish... you're good with money. I'm Irish... I drink, and ban Homosexuals from marching in my parade." Figure you'd appreciate the double-edged humor in that one. ;) Stewie: "I havn't been this scared since mother teresa OD'd in the back of my car.." That sequence had me laughing till I cried. Seriously for the next 10 mins of TV I couldn't stop. I think it was a combination of MT OD'd with puke all over herself, and what Stewie said when they got to the hospital :P *Start's chuckling again* :P
Lord Karsus 02-12-07, 11:02 AM	If it was the one that was on tonight, then yes. (The one where he goes to find his 'real' father?) I love that show - Peter: "Lets not deny our heritages. You're Jewish... you're good with money. I'm Irish... I drink, and ban Homosexuals from marching in my parade." Figure you'd appreciate the double-edged humor in that one. ;) -That wasn't the episode I was thinking of, actually. I don't know what episode it was, but there was a scene that showed Ireland in ancient times. It was a utopian civilization, with flying cars, robots, the whole thing. Then, they show a scientist, and he says, "Look guys, I invented something new. I'll call it 'beer'". The civilization shortly crumbles after that. -Maybe it was Futurama, but I think it was Family Guy. It sounded more like Family Guy.
createvmind 02-12-07, 11:03 AM	I meant Great Glaciar, guess it never reached my finger tips, I still think El would have pulled out one of his bag of trick spells on the shade. And the Simbul would have simply blasted silver fire at any and everything if her spells didn't work. Not nerfing the power of the princes, simply remembering that they haven't fought weave magic the entire time they were in the shadow plane. The Phaerimm handed several of the princes and a score of shadovar their asses merely pretending to be a few of the chosen, I know EL could have pulled off a better ruse than that to get the group within range of Karsestone. Was never referring to an all out battle, following the story line and what was the intention of Storm and the others.
Red_Wizard 02-12-07, 11:12 AM	I know :), but they hit telemont with silver fire, and he was fine. The Mythallar itself started to fail only because of the pounding it was taking from the giant. Had they killed the giant, then dealt with the chosen...well, anything changed could have rendered the timeline different. My opinion stills remains though that had the other two joined in, more than likely, things would hvae remained the same. That whole fight was poorly done on both sides, especially given the years of fighting things far eviler, and more cunning than the chosen.
Lord Karsus 02-12-07, 11:23 AM	The Mythallar itself started to fail only because of the pounding it was taking from the giant. -Remember the good ol' days, when touching a mythallar got you disintegrated? Yeah, who needs pre-established lore, especially in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy...
Red_Wizard 02-12-07, 11:50 AM	Indeed :raincloud
MarkusTay63 02-12-07, 02:24 PM	Dunno... kinda doubt the Irish qualify as the single most maligned, conquered, and enslaved race on Earth to be honest.... they still have a Nation, they still are allowed to practice their culture, they still have a culture period... doubt that really stands up in comparison to more than a few African, American, or Asian peoples who ran afoul of European Colonialization... :PBut the Irish have NEVER ruled themselves; as far back as their history goes they have been conquered by one group or another. They have never been able to oust conquerors, usually the next conqueror in line does it for them. I figure it goes something like this for last 2-3000 years - "Hey O'Mally, we're gonna start the revolution soon and throw down the tyrants." "I'm with you McDougal, just need to make a quick stop first at the pub" "Sounds like a fine idea, laddie, what say boys?" "Aye" "Aye" "Aye" etc... etc... I figure that probably happened at least once a week for the last few millenium. ;) Now I know which episode your referring to LK; it was just a quick blurb but I recall it. @Red_Wizard - Stewie really makes that whole show. :D To steer this meaningless meandering back on topic, I think Stewie could kick all the Shades butts. Going to have to write-up a precocious evil genius toddler to take care of all the riff-raff in my campaign.
Lord Karsus 02-12-07, 03:10 PM	I figure it goes something like this for last 2-3000 years - "Hey O'Mally, we're gonna start the revolution soon and throw down the tyrants." "I'm with you McDougal, just need to make a quick stop first at the pub" "Sounds like a fine idea, laddie, what say boys?" "Aye" "Aye" "Aye" etc... etc... I figure that probably happened at least once a week for the last few millenium. ;) -Yeah, sounds about right. ;)
Stigger 02-12-07, 03:59 PM	So... yeah... who in Europe hasn't been conquered and pillaged at some point? Ah, wait, there probably isn't a single culture out there that hasn't had that happen to them at least once. The Irish story isn't all that much different for the natives of Britain really... except the native brit's culture got pretty much wiped out in favor of Anglosaxon culture, while the Irish culture for the most part survived. And I do wonder where the Picts are these days... unless you're talking about pre-celtic, the Irish have fared fairly well on the face of things, considering just how much accommodation they were given by a church that couldn't break them of those nasty Irish habits, and the impact they've managed to have historically. Almost as bad as those bloody Hungarians really...
MarkusTay63 02-13-07, 03:58 AM	Funny thing is, they were the only ones the Romans didn't conquer. They were afraid - historic fact. Historians believe it was because they thought Ireland was the end of the world (as portrayed on their maps), but I think it was the smell of all those dirty drunken bastiches that kept them away. Hey, the Irish built the Titanic... ummm.... nevermind :incog:
maelstrom58 02-13-07, 06:59 PM	Funny thing is, they were the only ones the Romans didn't conquer. Rome didn't conquer the Germans either...at least not in any significant quantity. In actuality, there were quite a few people that weren't taken under the Republic / Empire's sword-arm; Persia and the Scythians come to mind. All this aside, boy, do I love Rome. As for the topic at hand, I have no beef with the Shades, but as some of the other posters have established, I hope that they stay put instead of getting wiped off the map by some overzealous writer trying to get shock-and-awe to make their book sell (Not to mention the canon change sourcebooks! Oh my!).
MarkusTay63 02-13-07, 08:40 PM	I think Selunarra should come back, and then the two of them could a have huge battle! Sel could launch mages on flying carpets, with Shade sending out squadrons of broom-riders! Of course, Shade would have made a deal with Halruua, and have Skyships gate-in and start bombing runs. then the Elven Starwings from Evermeet would show up, to help the rebel allaince.... Oh wait... Nevermind. How about if a city just hovers over waterdeep, and unleashes some sort of super-weapon straight down and obliterates the city? Then the only ones that could stop it could be an immature pilot and a cable repairman... :P
Lord Karsus 02-13-07, 10:54 PM	I think Selunarra should come back, and then the two of them could have huge battle! Sel could launch mages on flying carpets, with Shade sending out squadrons of broom-riders! Of course, Shade would have made a deal with Halruua, and have Skyships gate-in and start bombing runs. then the Elven Starwings from Evermeet would show up, to help the rebel allaince... -Have you ever glimpsed the legendary Shade vs. Evermeet thread? :)
MarkusTay63 02-13-07, 10:59 PM	No, pray tell, I haven't. Please, enlighten me. :D (In otherwords - got link?)
Lord Karsus 02-13-07, 11:09 PM	-You haven't understood the word 'windbags' until you read all of this thread. Good luck...;) ::Casts Detect Thread:: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=605219
Red_Wizard 02-14-07, 12:40 AM	Well, if that doesn't make a person on his way to bed regret ever clicking the link :P Not really sure I have the drive for that many pages of catch up. Ah well, probably for the best anyway, I waste enough time as it is :P
Lord Karsus 02-14-07, 01:00 AM	Well, if that doesn't make a person on his way to bed regret ever clicking the link :P Not really sure I have the drive for that many pages of catch up. Ah well, probably for the best anyway, I waste enough time as it is :P -Eh, you'll have fun reading it all. :cool:
The Simbul 02-14-07, 01:10 AM	Also, had you gone purely by stats to figure this out, then again they would have lost, as the chosen don't even have comparable caster levels to the Princes, and Lord Telemont.For what it is worth (and in this instance I don't assign a very high value to CL), a significant number of the Shade princes actually are not 'pure' spellcasters, specifically those who were actually involved in the battle itself. The ten surviving Shade princes rushed directly into the defensive barrier the Chosen raised over themselves and the mythallar, and five of them were ultimately either slain or wounded severely enough by it to have retreated from the battle. Despite the presence of Telemont, Galaeron, Vala, and Aris, the actual battle in the mythallar chamber consisted of the following NPCs The Chosen of Mystra Khelben Blackstaff (LN male human [Chosen of Mystra] Wiz24/Acm3) CR 31 Laeral Silverhand (CG female human [Chosen of Mystra] Rgr7/Sor4/Wiz19) CR 34 Storm Silverhand (CG female human [Chosen of Mystra] Ftr4/Rog1/Sor12/Brd8/Hrp3) CR 32 Dove Falconhand (CG female human [Chosen of Mystra] Rgr14/Sor9/Rog4/Hrp1) CR 32 Alustriel Silverhand (CG female human [Chosen of Mystra] Wiz20/Sor2/Acm2) CR 28 Average CR: 31.4 The Shade Princes Clariburnus Tanthul (LE male Netherese human shade Sor14/Sha4/Ftr8/Rog3) CR 31 Mattick Tanthul (LE male Netherese human shade Ill16/Sha9) CR 27 Vattick Tanthul (LE male Netherese human shade Ill16/Sha9) CR 27 Yder Tanthul (NE male Netherese human shade Ftr11/Sor12/Sha4/Chm4) CR 33 Aglarel Tanthul (NE male Netherese human shade Sor10/Ftr10/Clr6/Sha2 of Shar) CR 30 Average CR: 29.6 Meanwhile Galaeron served to "distract" Telemont, while the occassionaly actions of Vala, Aris, or Telemont intervented to mildly tip the balance of the main battle at key intervals. Of the five who actually engaged the Chosen in combat, only two of them are "pure" spellcasters in the sense of CL, and a pair of illusionists are a poor choice to send against the Chosen of Mystra. With their exceptionally higher base will saves, exceptionally higher wisdom scores, and any pre-cast spells they may have had operating before the battle commenced, the Chosen would be more than fortified against illusions. Meanwhile the average CR of those five princes is below the average CR of those five Chosen, and doesn't consider other factors, such as the Chosen initiated and thus were prepared for the encounter. Meanwhile, ss I will note later in the discussion of Elminster, comparative caster level is by no means a proper way to determine the outcome of an epic level encounter, specifically involving the characters discussed here. But most of these statistical compare/contrast sessions are moot, since if you went on pure 3E game statistics, and re-created the scene at the game table, then the mythallar would have been destroyed with only the five Chosen present, and the enclave would have likely been plunged into a dead shadow weave magic zone from the resulting backlash, long before the Shade princes would even have a chance to arrive on the scene. How? Mordenkainen’s disjunction spells, Mordenkainen’s disjunction scrolls, the exceptionally high will saves of the chosen (multiclassing does have some its perks, namely in a stacked BSB), their ability to re-roll a 1 on their saves with luckblades or an ally’s wish spell, and the actual rules for what happens to the shadow weave when a shadow weave artifact is destroyed (hint: it certainly doesn’t smother the spells of weave spellcasters). If the Chosen had enough time to raise an unseen magical barrier capable of severely wounding/slaying 5 of the 10 princes (invisible prismatic sphere?), while simultaneously being able to create some massive mythallar-sized floating portal with a ritual spell, then they just as easily could have used those rounds to disjoin the mythallar instead...and probably would have done so if they weren’t contrived to act like idiots for the sake of the storyline. Moreover the Chosen were prepared for this battle, whereas the Shade princes were caught by surprise. The Chosen could have augmented their prepared spell lists, magic items, and other options precisely to deal with the shades, whereas the princes would have to deal with whatever equipment or spells they typically carry. You can expect Dove to be dual-wielding a pair of outsider bane/shattermantle swords from her days in fighting the devils and demons in Myth Drannor, which not only would physically tear apart the princes, but would also cut their SR down significantly. You expect Khelben, Alustriel and Laeral to be outfitted with spell penetration items (robes of the archmagi, caster level bonus items, etc), spells which create light or banish darkness, and to prepare and provide scrolls of the aforementioned disjunction spell. Meanwhile, many of the Shade princes are either specialist wizards or sorcerers. A disproportionate number of their typical spells prepared will be those associated with their specialization, and in the case of the sorcerers an equally disproportionate number of their spells known will be those which would benefit from the shadow weave or the magic traits of the plane of shadow (where they spent much of their existance). Such spells are going to be poor choices against the Chosen, since their pre-epic multiclassing and their ability scores will give them exceptionally potent fortitude and will saves, and the majority of enchantment/illusion/necromancy spells are outright negated by a saving throw. As for the absence of Elminster and the Simbul, and how it would play in the game: If you took the events of the battle largely as written, but added Elminster and the Simbul to the mix, then the day would have gone to the Chosen under the rules. Elminster is more than capable of handling Telemont on his own, despite any initial reaction that a higher caster level somehow would equate to an automatic victory. Almost 99% of all the spells out there will cap their level-dependent variables at CL 25 or sooner and Telemont’s SR of 46 can be negated by a daylight spell, or otherwise overcome by an assortment of other spells or magic items. Meanwhile Elminster’s multiclassing gives him evasion and with his ability scores those bolstered base save bonuses yield saving throws far higher than any equal level pure spellcaster, which on top of his 300+ hitpoints serve to ensure that he will last longer in the battle than any of the pure caster princes, and in turn be able to slay more of them before they bring him to the brink of defeat. Meanwhile the Simbul could have single handedly taken out the mythallar with an epic spell, or could have slain several of the Shade princes, using the same strategies as Elminster (daylight spells followed by slaying magic, if need be through multiple spell triggers or multiple timestop spells), and by possessing the same defenses, i.e. much better saves against spells, and 300+ hp. Then again, if you involved the actual game 3.0 game rules, which was the ruleset in place during the trilogy, then the Shades would never have been brought back from the shadow plane in the first place. If you went on pure game statistics, then Melegaunt should never have reached the Karsestone in the first place, because Elminster can almost effortlessly beat the CL check needed to see through Melegaunt’s invisibility spells and would have effortlessly halted the advance of the party (by force or by reason). Likewise, Elminster would not have been hampered in the dire wood, as he can just as easily make the CL check needed to cast spells in a wild magic zone, as well as the spell penetration checks needed to bypass the obscenely low SR of the Phaerimm in the 3.0 Monster’s of Faerun. As such, he would not have been as depleted in his spells per day after those encounters, nor would he have been virtually powerless at the ambush in Shadowdale. If you went on pure game statistics, then the elven high mages and Mystra’s chosen could have been able to contain the phaerimm threat on their own, since in 3.0 the phaerimm have a base spell resistance of 15, which improves by one point for every three sorcerer class levels they gained. A 3.0 phaerimm with 60 sorcerer levels (an unprecedented exaggeration meant to drive home the point) would have a 0% chance resisting the spells of 3.0 Elminster...therefore any reasonable level phaerimm would have no reprieve against any competently built elven sorcerer or wizard who met the prerequisites of the Elven High Mage prestige class. If you went on pure game statistics, then every other elven female warrior in Evereska wouldn’t have to be impregnated with the child of some Vaasan caveman just to be able to wield a weapon capable of breaching the Phaerrim’s damage reduction against magic/magic and silver. Moreover, if we accept the absurd premise in that mythallar-battle scene that large concentrations of raw energy of one weave can somehow smother the magic of another (such as the still undefined “shadowstuff” that leaked from the mythallar canceling the spells of the Chosen), then along that premise all of the princes should have been rendered magically powerless the instant they came into presence of multiple Chosen, since all of the chosen carry a portion of the raw power of the weave itself raging inside of them. P.S. Despite the quotation, this post was not specifically directed at Red_Wizard, but rather is a long-standing list of frustrations with the events of the trilogy that I have been contemplating for a while, and occasionally digressed on. It is also meant as a general counterargument against the prevailing opinion on these and other message boards that the Chosen would have been outright slaughtered in the mythallar chamber battle if replicated in-game, despite numerous factors that would suggest otherwise.
Lord Karsus 02-14-07, 01:16 AM	:clap: -Well said.
The Simbul 02-14-07, 01:28 AM	[edit] placed P.S. in original, previous post.
MarkusTay63 02-14-07, 02:12 AM	-Eh, you'll have fun reading it all. :cool:I had to stop reading, I get mad when people just 'make up stuff' 'cause thats the way THEY think it ought to be. :headexplo
Stigger 02-14-07, 04:08 AM	That thread just made my head hurt... hard to believe the crap some can spew forth. Ugh...
Lord Karsus 02-14-07, 09:34 AM	I had to stop reading, I get mad when people just 'make up stuff' 'cause thats the way THEY think it ought to be. :headexplo -What do you mean?
BrennonGoldeye 02-14-07, 10:02 AM	-Have you ever glimpsed the legendary Shade vs. Evermeet thread? Reply With Quote Noooooooooo! Markus don't gaze upon the thread! Dear Stigger, look away!;) Fine, look into the depths of the yadayada abyss. I would just like to make one interjection. :pile: :bounce: :tie: :bounce: :pile: ...........................Elves Rule!.............................
Red_Wizard 02-14-07, 10:17 AM	Thank's simbul, that is a good example of why playing the "what if" game get's a little silly :). I'm not gonna go through your post and try to argue anything, but I will point out that despite the probability the chosen alone could have taken the Mythallar out, they only arrived at it via great novel silliness. They couldn't find/ get to it on their own, so playing the "what if" with the story certainly makes it difficult, when alot of sketchy things happened soley for the futhering of the series. To your CR vs CL remarks, I may not entirely agree with you, but I do see where your coming from. My Take though, is Using Shadow magic, and Being powered by their Mythallar, would definatly give this fight the upper hand. (assuming we also go by the silverfire rules I know you hate;)) The Chosen of Mystra Khelben Blackstaff (LN male human [Chosen of Mystra] Wiz24/Acm3) CL 27 Laeral Silverhand (CG female human [Chosen of Mystra] Rgr7/Sor4/Wiz19) CL 19 or 4 Storm Silverhand (CG female human [Chosen of Mystra] Ftr4/Rog1/Sor12/Brd8/Hrp3) CL 12 or 8 Dove Falconhand (CG female human [Chosen of Mystra] Rgr14/Sor9/Rog4/Hrp1) CL 9 Alustriel Silverhand (CG female human [Chosen of Mystra] Wiz20/Sor2/Acm2) CL 22 or 4 Average CL: 17.8 V.S. The Shade Princes Clariburnus Tanthul (LE male Netherese human shade Sor14/Sha4/Ftr8/Rog3) CL 18 Mattick Tanthul (LE male Netherese human shade Ill16/Sha9) CL 27 Vattick Tanthul (LE male Netherese human shade Ill16/Sha9) CL 27 Yder Tanthul (NE male Netherese human shade Ftr11/Sor12/Sha4/Chm4) CL 16 Aglarel Tanthul (NE male Netherese human shade Sor10/Ftr10/Clr6/Sha2 of Shar) CL12 Lamorak Tanthul (NE male Shade Wiz19/ Sha7) CL 26 Telamont Tanthul (NE male Shade Wiz20/ Acm5/ Sha10) CL 35 Average CL: 23 Pitted one for one, the Shades out cast the chosen every time. And they use Shadow magic, to which DC's are raised (if they use DC spells at all), and more difficult to counter. Assuming that a group of Netherese mages stemming from the founding of the city, were somehow at a dissadvantage in their own city, by their own Mythallar seems kind of goofy. But again, novel magic ;).
GothicDan 02-14-07, 11:09 AM	I don't think the Simbul ever contested the point that the Chosen of Mystra (those represented in the battle) had a higher average CL than the Princes of Shade. That's pretty obvious, isn't it? As to Shadow Magic somehow being superior? The DCs aren't raised that much at all, the Chosen have exceptional Will saves (making Illusion/Enchantment all but useless - and aren't they immune to certain spells from the Enchantment school?), so that pretty much leaves Necromancy as the heavy-hitter... And two of the highest level spellcasters among the Shades are Illusionists, not particularly well-known for their use of Necromancy. Telamont, if I'm not mistaken, was almost wholly caught up in keeping the city of Shade afloat, meaning that after the first bit of combat, he could effectively be taken out of the equation altogether. And for the actual combat, for some reason, if I recall correctly, the Shades were using almost entirely directly combative spells - evocation, maybe some conjuration and transmutation. None of those are their strong suits.
Red_Wizard 02-14-07, 01:49 PM	I don't think the Simbul ever contested the point that the Chosen of Mystra (those represented in the battle) had a higher average CL than the Princes of Shade. That's pretty obvious, isn't it? I know :) As to Shadow Magic somehow being superior? The DCs aren't raised that much at all, the Chosen have exceptional Will saves (making Illusion/Enchantment all but useless - and aren't they immune to certain spells from the Enchantment school?), so that pretty much leaves Necromancy as the heavy-hitter... And two of the highest level spellcasters among the Shades are Illusionists, not particularly well-known for their use of Necromancy. Seem's unlikly they would have prepared spells that were of a dominating, or trickery nature, during a time of war. Necromancy being a very effective destructive school at higher levels (or using spells from expanded materials), combined with slightly raised DC's, and the fact the novels were written before the spell power was changed to increase CL instead, chances are indeed good that they would have no need to worry about potency in combat. Telamont, if I'm not mistaken, was almost wholly caught up in keeping the city of Shade afloat, meaning that after the first bit of combat, he could effectively be taken out of the equation altogether. Correct. But, what is being discussed was purely hypothetical, as what happened is set in cannon. So, the inclusion of him was solely to point out the magical superiority VS the chosen, should a one to one fight begin. And for the actual combat, for some reason, if I recall correctly, the Shades were using almost entirely directly combative spells - evocation, maybe some conjuration and transmutation. None of those are their strong suits. Something i'll agree didn't make sence, but again something not really in question.
MarkusTay63 02-14-07, 03:24 PM	Okay, this thread is getting as bad as the one Karsus pointed out, and I didn't even get past the first page. This is how I SAY it would play out - The battle causes so much trans-planar interference, that the Over-god Fromage from the sphere of cheese shows up. Being very angry at being interrupted during his enjoyment of a large plate of cheese fries, he forms a 10-mile chunk of Swiss (looking all the world like a creme-colored asteroid due to the holes) and hurls it at the city, destroying it instantly. Unfortunately, the Chosen were standing too close and were hit by molten cheese, killing them as well. Now there is a delicious lake of cheese sauce in the center of the Anauroch desert. --- The End See, I can make up ANYTHING I want and still have it fall within the rules. These arguments are pointless.
Red_Wizard 02-14-07, 04:03 PM	Hmmmm...what can I make with cheese in it, i'm hungry now
MarkusTay63 02-14-07, 04:18 PM	Cheese really is the all-purpose food. It can turn an ordinary meal into a delicacy! :D
Lord Karsus 02-14-07, 11:09 PM	Okay, this thread is getting as bad as the one Karsus pointed out, and I didn't even get past the first page. -The best stuff came after the first page!!
Stigger 02-15-07, 04:15 AM	Don't have the patience or the inclination to get that far... too obvious where that arguement is going, and I have enough frustration in my life as it is. :P
Lord Karsus 02-15-07, 11:13 PM	Don't have the patience or the inclination to get that far... too obvious where that arguement is going, and I have enough frustration in my life as it is. :P -Your loss. The posts get pretty good at later points...
BrennonGoldeye 02-16-07, 08:13 AM	-Your loss. The posts get pretty good at later points... Some of my greatest smarta**itude in those posts. Ah, good times:whatsthis
Xavier_of_Cormyr 02-16-07, 09:19 AM	I don't know if this is on or off topic anymore in this thread- but why do all dwarves in novels come across as scottish? Especially R.A. Salvatores?
BrennonGoldeye 02-16-07, 10:18 AM	I think it's all etymology. They don't have Barons or Dukes, they have Thanes. They live in clans, not families. The question is way off topic, but a good one none the less.;)
Fabius Maximus 02-16-07, 12:11 PM	I don't know if this is on or off topic anymore in this thread- but why do all dwarves in novels come across as scottish? Especially R.A. Salvatores? Because Salvatore won the right to portray dwarves as scots by right of the number of sold books.
GothicDan 02-16-07, 12:21 PM	Thane is Anglo-Saxon in origin... Not Scottish.
Lord Karsus 02-16-07, 12:27 PM	I don't know if this is on or off topic anymore in this thread- but why do all dwarves in novels come across as scottish? Especially R.A. Salvatores? -Tolkien's influence in fantasy.
GothicDan 02-16-07, 12:33 PM	.... Tolkien's dwarves were so Norse it hurt, even if their language was partially inspired by mingling Old Germanic and Hebrew. Look at the movies: they used the Futhark (Norse) rune language for Dwarven. This Scottish thing is fairly new.
MarkusTay63 02-16-07, 02:26 PM	The FR Dwarves are sort of a combination Anglo (the scotts accent and Irish love of suds), Norse (Rune magic and the whole 'creator of fine weapons' thing, not to mention where they live) and Germanic (Austere life-style, work-ethic, craftsmanship and eye for perfection, bearded woman) ;) So, in other words, they are a fairly 'original' concept (or as original as one can get). Wow... just learned something. I had always assumed that Salvatore stole his concept from the Warcraft series of games, but the Crystal Shard came out in 1988, Warcraft: Orcs and Humans came out in 1994! That means Blizzard STOLE their concept from Salvatore! :eek: I think somebody owes someone something regarding 'Intellectual Properties' or some such. :$$:
Lord Karsus 02-16-07, 06:39 PM	.... Tolkien's dwarves were so Norse it hurt, even if their language was partially inspired by mingling Old Germanic and Hebrew. Look at the movies: they used the Futhark (Norse) rune language for Dwarven. This Scottish thing is fairly new. -I didn't mean that Tolkien's Dwarves are Scots. I meant that, if you trace "the lines" back, you'll find that Tolkien is the source of many of the cultural/racial identities of so many of us are familiar with today. Of course, Tolkien borrowed from already established histories and legends and stuff, but he is the one who consolidated it all, and "put it out there".
BrennonGoldeye 02-17-07, 01:17 PM	Thane is Anglo-Saxon in origin... Not Scottish. Thane O.E. đegn "military follower," also "servant, attendant," from P.Gmc. *thegnas (cf. O.S. thegan "follower, warrior, boy," O.N. ţegn "thane, freeman," O.H.G. thegan, Ger. Degen "thane, warrior, hero"), from PIE *tek-no- (cf. Skt. takman "descendant, child," Gk. teknon "child"), from base *tek- "to beget, give birth to" (cf. Gk. tekos "child, the young of animals," tokos "childbirth, offspring, produce of money, interest"). Also used in O.E. for "disciple of Christ." Specific sense of "man who ranks between an earl and a freeman" is c.1470. The modern spelling is from Scottish, where c.1220 it came to mean "chief of a clan, king's baron," and probably predominated in Eng. due to influence of "Macbeth;" normal orthographic changes from O.E. đegn would have produced Mod.Eng. *thain. Some historians now use thegn to distinguish Anglo-Saxon thanes from Scottish thanes. Thegn "military tenant of an Anglo-Saxon king," a modern revival first attested 1848; see thane. I apologize, I'll rephrase. Dwarves and Shakespeare have Thanes.:cip:
Aegis_Chiron 02-26-07, 04:00 AM	My vote is to eliminate the Shadow weave and Shade. In fact, in my campaigns I do. While the seperating of the True Weave into the Weave and the Shadow Weave explains how 10th+ level spells are no longer possible, since Mystra herself made the change she would have known about the seperation. To me it does nothing to promote the main aspects of Shar's portfolio "Dark, night, loss forgetfulness..." I also agree with the statement that the charm of Netheril is that it's an dead civilization with its few remaining secrets hidden so only the most trepid and daring of adventurers can find them. I also feel that it was the beginning of the end of the Realms novels. Archwizards, Raging Dragons, Fey'ri etc.. All within a few years of each other. Those poor Faerunians are probably taking bets on just how soon Dendar the Night Serpent is going to arrive and whether Ubtao will be up to the challenge of stopping him/her/it.
Lord Karsus 02-26-07, 12:23 PM	My vote is to eliminate the Shadow weave and Shade. In fact, in my campaigns I do. While the seperating of the True Weave into the Weave and the Shadow Weave explains how 10th+ level spells are no longer possible, since Mystra herself made the change she would have known about the seperation. -The Shadow Weave existed before I cast Karsus' Avatar, and before Mystra was born. If it didn't, how was Lord Shadow a practicioner of the Shadow Weave? ;) I also agree with the statement that the charm of Netheril is that it's an dead civilization with its few remaining secrets hidden so only the most trepid and daring of adventurers can find them. -A lot of us believe that (myself included). But, on the other hand, there seems to be a prevailing wind that is saying, "In with the old, out with the new". I also feel that it was the beginning of the end of the Realms novels. Archwizards, Raging Dragons, Fey'ri etc.. All within a few years of each other. Those poor Faerunians are probably taking bets on just how soon Dendar the Night Serpent is going to arrive and whether Ubtao will be up to the challenge of stopping him/her/it. -Heh, not the people in Chult. They're just sitting there, waiting for something interesting to happen in their neck of the woods. The majority of all these RSEs are talking place in the same generalized area. Those are the people who, by now, are going to be the insane, cynical, nihilistic ones. ;)
Stigger 02-26-07, 09:24 PM	Insane, cynical, and nihlistic... sounds like a perfect breeding ground for Shar. Just what we need...
msatran 02-26-07, 09:43 PM	Well, really, the problem is that they're still all casters and Yder Tanthul has a good bab, 20 with Tenser's Transformation and whatever epic weapons and bonuses he can generate. (Probably Ridiculous.) So why don't they just HASTE him and counter everything else while they melee mow the chosen down?
Lord Karsus 02-26-07, 11:02 PM	Insane, cynical, and nihlistic... sounds like a perfect breeding ground for Shar. Just what we need... -Ironically enough, the current RSE is that Shar is shaking things up, with the Shadow War.
Stigger 02-27-07, 12:29 AM	Yeah, I know, but it just makes that particular storyline all the more likely to really turn me off the canon Realms for a while.
BrennonGoldeye 02-28-07, 10:24 AM	-A lot of us believe that (myself included). But, on the other hand, there seems to be a prevailing wind that is saying, "In with the old, out with the new". Brings an interesting point. Just what makes things "new". They have all been done already. Most likely multiple times. How about.."In with the experienced, out with the newb?" Like that we do....
Lord Karsus 02-28-07, 02:50 PM	Brings an interesting point. Just what makes things "new". They have all been done already. Most likely multiple times. How about.."In with the experienced, out with the newb?" Like that we do.... -I meant that in the way that all of the old empires seem to be making returns.
JaiaDrottsingr 02-28-07, 06:19 PM	And if your a Braveheart fan, all the more reason to love 'em. ;) You do know that one of the royal people portrayed in that movie was homosexual, right (Seriously, the real character, not the actor [I hope])? Yeah, the prince. I'm Irish/German BTW, so I spend half my time making Beer, and the other half drinking it. :D Please tell me part of that time is spent listening to Celtic Punk? There's just not enough Welshmen, Scots, or Irishers who do.
Lord Karsus 02-28-07, 06:37 PM	You do know that one of the royal people portrayed in that movie was homosexual, right (Seriously, the real character, not the actor [I hope])? Yeah, the prince. -What!? A...a...a...gay person!? Scandalous! -Supposedly, Alexander the Great was homosexual, and he took over a large portion of the known world. And, look at the Catholic Church. A whole lot of them are homosexual was well, and they still are the preeminent Christian religion. Anyway, yes, there have been gay people in positions of power over the centuries. -Don't know why I launched into that tirade...Eh, why not? :)
Stigger 02-28-07, 06:47 PM	Wouldn't exactly be the first time a homosexual sat on the throne of England... there's plenty of hints that at the least 3 monarchs were strongly inclined in that direction. Not even going to go into the Italian city-states...
BrennonGoldeye 02-28-07, 09:17 PM	Wow, let me paint the rainbow across Anauroch and lead a Fey parade...:cheer:
BrennonGoldeye 02-28-07, 09:26 PM	-Supposedly, Alexander the Great was homosexual, and he took over a large portion of the known world. He was Greek. Thats a whole nother thing. Let's see how they deal with it in 300. And, look at the Catholic Church. A whole lot of them are homosexual was well, and they still are the preeminent Christian religion. Hey, put "Must not Marry" in any job description and see what kind of turn out you get. Anyway, yes, there have been gay people in positions of power over the centuries. Yes, many many positions...:rofl: ... sorry just couldn't resist that one. P.S. To any and all who might be offended, don't be. I am a member of all three groups slighted and we all enjoy a good joke. :dancin: Opa!:dancin:
MarkusTay63 02-28-07, 10:41 PM	You do know that one of the royal people portrayed in that movie was homosexual, right (Seriously, the real character, not the actor )? Yeah, the prince.Ummmmm... your point? :uh-huh: He was Greek. Thats a whole nother thing. Let's see how they deal with it in [I]300.Actually, he was Macedonian. He conquered the Greeks first, hence the misunderstanding. One could say that the Greeks were large and in charge, until they met Alexander. Then they were f__ked. ;)
BrennonGoldeye 02-28-07, 10:51 PM	Actually, he was macedonian. He conquered the Greeks first, hence the misunderstanding. Actually, his dad did that. Alex was raised Greek by his Greek mom. That's why we claim him. ;)
Stigger 02-28-07, 11:41 PM	Aye, tis true...
MarkusTay63 02-28-07, 11:47 PM	But mother's don't count, so he was Macedonian. It always went by the father back then, and HIS dad was a king. :king: And yer right about his father conquering the Greeks, it was Al who did everything else. (and everyone ;) )
Green Elven Vampire 02-28-07, 11:49 PM	I can't believe I took the time to read this thread!! :rolleyes:
Stigger 03-01-07, 12:09 AM	Always thought patriarchal lineage was one of the stupider ideas we ever came up with as a species... you don't always know who the father was, but you can generally speaking be pretty damned sure who mom was. Besides, who do you think really shaped his earliest education, dad or mom? Even if you say tutors, most of them were imported Greeks, so... yeah.
msatran 03-01-07, 01:12 AM	Really, the thing that bothers me about the whole business with the Shades is this: There's this magical, and simple thing called the Law of the Economy of Characters. Randomly introducing interstitial dimensional geography and dropping floating cities into the middle of Faerun does NOT obey the Law of the Economy of Characters. They could have just said "A new man calling himself the Shadowking raises a chunk of mountain in Anauroch" and you have the SAME effect WITHOUT THE BS!
Green Elven Vampire 03-01-07, 01:56 AM	Really, the thing that bothers me about the whole business with the Shades is this: There's this magical, and simple thing called the Law of the Economy of Characters. Randomly introducing interstitial dimensional geography and dropping floating cities into the middle of Faerun does NOT obey the Law of the Economy of Characters. They could have just said "A new man calling himself the Shadowking raises a chunk of mountain in Anauroch" and you have the SAME effect WITHOUT THE BS! Not everyone plays D&D like robots following every exact rule, and every exact description. Just because someone is NE, doesn't mean he/she will act NE ALL the time in every game. And randomly throwing stuff in that is not the LAW, is exactly what D&D is about by all means.
Dark Wizard 03-01-07, 02:03 AM	I have a feeling you two are speaking different languages.
Green Elven Vampire 03-01-07, 02:15 AM	I have a feeling you two are speaking different languages. My point is this... He doesn't like the idea of Shade enclave just re-appearing out of the blue because it doesn't follow his law of economy of characters. D&D as a whole is all about upsetting this silly law. Even all the core books encourage you to change the rules as you see fit. Says it in the opening pages of all books. This law was meant to be broken.
Krash 03-01-07, 02:22 AM	Really, the thing that bothers me about the whole business with the Shades is this: There's this magical, and simple thing called the Law of the Economy of Characters. Randomly introducing interstitial dimensional geography and dropping floating cities into the middle of Faerun does NOT obey the Law of the Economy of Characters. They could have just said "A new man calling himself the Shadowking raises a chunk of mountain in Anauroch" and you have the SAME effect WITHOUT THE BS! Shade has been gone from the realms since the Netheril boxed set. They just decided to bring it back. If anything they followed your "Law of the Economy of Characters" to the letter by not introducing a new character to create this event, but rather drawing on old characters. -- George Krashos
Agudo Archmage 03-01-07, 02:37 AM	BrennonGoldeye I am a member of all three groups slighted and we all enjoy a good joke. O’ so you’re a priest coming out of the closet? Or one going back into the confessional? :rimshot: Thank you ill be here all week in Slapstick city Markustay63 And if your a Braveheart fan, all the more reason to love 'em. JaiaDrottsingr You do know that one of the royal people portrayed in that movie was homosexual, right (Seriously, the real character, not the actor [I hope])? Yeah, the prince. Markustay63 Ummmmm... your point? A classic TV joke is that straight people say… O’ im not gay Not that there is anything wrong with that Of course what made that joke funny was… You can be gay…I just don’t want people to think I am Perhaps that was his point…or not lol Ahh… to be back in the days before the Braveheart movie and before Political Correctness .:cloud9: Such as the movie Zorro The Gay Blade :duel: Back then you laughed at peoples stereotype and yaaa with them Now if that was an FR book, they would finally have a gay main hero and you could laugh at them and still like them umm as a friend :ayyyy!: Not that there is anything wrong with that! ;) Now to think Krash for putting us back on track with his post The City of Shades isnt so bad, as long as they balance it out with FR NPC For its a bunch of Archmages flying about! Kind of throws off things On the other hand the Mega Power they have, is only good in the city or near it I would also vote to have more Elves, Gnomes, Dwarves and so on back I just find it boring that humans rule the Realm Now how they bring them back can be fun I would start by lowering the numbers of humans in the Realm Perhaps by doing to Waterdeep what they did to the Elvin lands I would enjoy playing a mix-race group of Gnomes'Halflings/Dwarves adventures, searching the mysterious human city of Waterdeep Finding out why they were destroyed and how Thats my take
JWSIII 03-01-07, 02:48 AM	Randomly voting for Shade to go-away, but for Anarouchto become new non-desert "frontier" land of quality for Cormyr, Silver MArchers, Zhentarim, ect. ect. to fight over. Also, I hate the fact that a city of 25,000 is supposedly a threat to countries of millions. I am aware that a sufficently high difference in tech.(magic) level could make 25,000 threaten millions, yet nothing I have seen indicates that there is even remotely that kind of difference in magic levels between shade and others. It irritates me that even base notions of reality are discarded by the "Shade threatens the world" club. I am aware that this is a mgic setting, but a: In a system designed around known/accepted mechanics, we can compare, and b: if its just magic, and anything goes. no logic whatsoever, why argue anyways?
Stigger 03-01-07, 07:17 AM	I'd be all for Anauroch to get 'repaired' and watch it turn into the the new 'land of adventure, profit, and war'... though I'd be a little worried about the state of things when all those blue dragons suddenly found themselves semi-homeless...
MarkusTay63 03-01-07, 09:11 AM	Hmmmm, they could bring back the primordial forest of Aunorch, like I did in Thay with my campaign. I wonder if they somehow manage to 'turn back the clock', will there will be dinosaurs there, or even Sarrukh or Batrachi or Aearee? I mean, after all, they're on a roll with bringing back the past.
Stigger 03-01-07, 09:35 AM	Could be, but I hope the Sarrukh are headed for a quick end... that felt very tacked on to reconcile some of the wilder deviations from canon that NWN1 took to me.
Lord Karsus 03-01-07, 09:35 AM	...will there will be dinosaurs there? -The recent Son of Thunder novel removed some dinosaurs from the High Forest. Maybe the trend isn't getting that bad. Yet...
MarkusTay63 03-01-07, 09:45 AM	There were still dinosaurs in the High forest after all this time? You know, the civilized history of Faerun is much older then our own, you'd a thought they would have gotten rid of all them thar critters by now. :D
Stigger 03-01-07, 09:46 AM	Blame the orcs, they're the dinos primary foodsource... or so the gnomes tell me. :D
MarkusTay63 03-01-07, 09:54 AM	Now that I think about it, after 25 Thousand years of history you'd think they would have at least come up with the Steam engine, thats low tech enough to work. Something tells me I need to re-do that IQ to Int chart I posted on another thread, 'cause a D&D 18 Int is probably still only an IQ of 90. :D
createvmind 03-01-07, 01:03 PM	The Dino's in the High Forest are not your typical dino's and returned to their "refuge" within the High Forest, non-carnivorous dino's at that. It seems the consensus is that the many have a problem with events taking a turn for the worse in Faerun finally after how many years? Times of Trouble saw destruction of Zhentil keep, assassins slain to a man/woman and a handful of evil gods destroyed no "good" organization took losses like that and the relevant "good" deity slain was returned to life. Evil gains no advantages Drow war with Mithral Hall results in major losses for the drow. Blidgenstone not a representative of the good guys so it's destruction doesn't really count. War from the sea also results in bad guys taking an L Horde of Tuigans take an L Events in Halruaa, bad guys take an L, good guys restored to life once again. previous flight of dragons, Chosen kinda sorta slain by good guys saved. Orcs deciding to organize and not do the lemming-rush falls into a gray area in regards to my point since they just want to be recognized as a kingdom it seems, Manifest Destiny if you will. Gareth Dragonbane puts kaboosh down across various planes and bad guys take an L Azoun dies but dragon and her army take an L Lloth's silence results in destruction of drow cities, forces of evil do batte as always. L's taken all around. Fey'ri take an L Sojuorner while not a bad guy per se goes out like a wet noodle with his god-like power. Shade also kind of a manifest destiny upon returning by Phaerimm take an L and now bad guys start to make some ground with bashing of Evereska. Rage, the dragons take massive L, Sammaster kaput, damage is across the board although Calimshan and pirates seem to suffer far more than good guys. Calimshan suffers year-long lightning attacks right after dragon attack. Zhents snatch up Hillsfar I believe, again bad guys fighting semi bad guys. Sembia in turmoil, again not a "good" place and again due to bad guys battling, Mask vs Shar. Chosen dies possibly permanantly but a ancient elven magic city returns, pretty good trade off if you ask me. So exactly when is it going to be ok or acceptable for the good team to actually lose? We are now having events play out in 1375, I mean I would think the bad guys in need of counseling by now for constantly losing and now having self-esteem issues.
MarkusTay63 03-01-07, 01:29 PM	You haven't named a bunch of stuff that went against the good guys, like the destruction of Tilverton, and the deaths of Khelben and Sylune' (given, she was dead before the setting started). The little you have said just kinda blows it all off. A little one-sided don't you think? I personally have nothing against bad stuff happening, I like the idea of the setting getting darker. Its the 'ridiculous' stuff that everyone has a problem with I think; how many more cities/races/kingdoms are we gonna see returning? Also, as bad as the death of Azoun was, the mass destruction that Cormyr has been hit with by several events recently makes matters MUCH worse, and also there is no ruler ATM, only a regent. The destruction in Evereska? The Phaerim got out and the return of Shade? The sea War caused much destruction as well, above AND below the waves. Blingdinstone was a GOOD city, and it was wiped out. The few gnomes left had to flee to Silverymoon. Oh, and the Elven retreat has ended so they're coming back... oh wait... some people think thats a good thing... :rolleyes:
createvmind 03-01-07, 02:27 PM	I did mention both chosen, see above. I did mention Evereska and didn't mention Tilverton becuase it was subsumed by Corymr only recently and not by choice so that doesn't make it a good city simply being under Cormyr's control and therefore benefits whom exactly? Blingdinstone was a city seeking to stay hidden and self-contained, doesn't make them good for that reason and only joined in combat because they knew if drow were victorious they were next, and would be caught between Menz and a now drow-controlled Mithral Hall, therefore that's a matter of strategic survival and look what they got for it. I'm not talking about loss of forces, that goes without saying in battles. I'm talking about losing period, being routed, destroyed, beaten, defeated, bad guys are CLEARLY defeated time and time again, outright destroyed. Often superior and intelligent forces are beaten, with exception of Corymr trilogy where the good guys took continious L's from the very beginning all other events ultimately turn in favor of the good guys. Corymr stands strong, you would think immediately following Azouns death and with the wizard and cleric at their lowest the bad guys would seek to dsrupt things from as many different fronts as possible and be victorious to some extent, that was not the case. Tactical genius tuigan Khan with almost 3 times the army of Azoun and having already battled mages before takes one of the worst L's ever depicted in Faerun to date. Lopsided in what manner? Flight of dragons less than 20 years ago, cities/dalelands damaged but not destroyed. Current rage- No bastions of good are destroyed, damaged yes, but none destroyed at least as far as I remember. Again Calimshan is the only city to suffer continued damage during rage and continued damage for an entire year after, but then again Calimshan is not a city of those who fight the good fight either. Samaster alone could have caused untold destruction yet of all things wreaked, a temple to Cyric????????????? Thayans seem to be unable to do anything right other than unleashing destruction upon themselves from time to time. Haven't touched on Pools of trilogy debacles, Shadowking debacles in the past, Akhlaur debacle, Moonshae debacle, both of them, the Maluagyrm debacle, Cadderly saving Soaring Spires, then assiting on artifact destruction. The list goes on and on, the bad guys who may have plotted and planned for 1000's of years always seem to overplay their hand and go down in flames time and time again. Even when the bad guys gain some advantage they suddenly sit on their laurels and allow the good guys to make preparations. Shade alone could have pulled off a multitude of assassinations across the dalelands and heartlands simply to weaken the region, why wait till 1375 unless given divine insight. I personally assume they did just that, infiltrating at ground level and working way up to better grasp the ways to ensure they aren't squandering resources and time which bad guys seem to do with zeal. I dislike many bad groups in Faerun but that doesn't mean they shouldn't eventually prevail at some point across various areas in Faerun and maintain their holdings.
Stigger 03-01-07, 04:09 PM	Well, thinking on it... most of the stuff that's 'pro-evil' for D&D is generally intended for a 'mature' audience... something not a lot of the novels are necessarily geared towards, much less general audience sourcebooks and adventures. It's pretty much presumed that the PC's are going to be at least neutral, if not good aligned in most supplements, adventures, etcetera, so it would follow that the majority of those said supplements, adventures, etcetera would have 'happy/good' endings. Considering the rather nasty polarization going on in US society today, with hard core christian conservatives on one side and rabid 'save the children' mommy-state liberals on the other, I can see where WotC would have a certain amount of trepidation moving towards anything that could get them in hot water and result in any more bad press than they have to. I have been heartened by the seeming ignoring of those people in favor of catering more towards what their actual fan base wants, but at some point I think that's eventually going to come to a grinding halt when the parent company is hit with threats of boycotts and the like. Hopefully I'm wrong about that, but those overzealous D&D bashers have hardly breathed their last breath.
Agudo Archmage 03-01-07, 07:53 PM	Markustay63 Oh, and the Elven retreat has ended so they're coming back... oh wait... some people think thats a good thing... :rolleyes: :clap: :w00t: :clap: Who Me? -->Self Proclaimed Elf Lover :thumbsup: :cheer: :thumbsup:
Lord Karsus 03-02-07, 12:01 AM	Markustay63 :clap: :w00t: :clap: Who Me? -->Self Proclaimed Elf Lover :thumbsup: :cheer: :thumbsup: -I'm Sha'Quessir as well, but I don't like how the Retreat ended. It's not really the fact that it did end, but the way that it did that gets me.
msatran 03-02-07, 01:00 PM	Well, George, not that I'm inclined to argue with someone I really A) Like, and B) respect, but everything that came out of the City of Shade bit was negative for the realms on a Marketing level. 1) It popularized the Shadow Weave, which is still the bastard child of Richard Baker's birthright setting and never should have made it into the realms in the first place. Now we have useless things on this board like "Is the Shadow Weave Evil? Of COURSE it's evil, it's controlled by an evil god, therefore using it gives the evil god power." 2) It produced some BAD novels. And I mean REALLY bad novels. The kinds of novels that made my teeth itch. Even the Rage, The Rite, and The Ruin paled in comparison to this. 3) The Shadow Weave was never in theme for the Realms in the first place, and sticking it in there was just an excuse for cute feats and marketing tricks. It was a mechanic that created undue amounts of confusion. "Does all shadow magic come from the shadow weave? Yes or no?" The debate still rages. 4) Yes, I understand that you can look at it as "using existing characters." The point is that when they created these NPC's, they literally created a group of NPC's who could take over the world from their bedroom. When people create NPC's, they have to take care to think about "What would my PC's do if they were X, Y, or Z?" and examine all the possibilities. This is why I love your Impiltur stuff. Because you took the time to do this! :) I don't look at that as "using existing characters," and I'm sure you added a few, but the point is that the Law of Economy of Characters is a writing technique used to create dramatic tension and make people feel that the characters have meaning and interact with each other. Another cosmic, crushing epic level enemy doesn't do that, George. And I'm hoping you understand that as well as I do. 5) The truth is, people don't all run D+D the same. I run a very character driven, living world style realms where there are a lot of heroes in different parts of the world who can encounter, run into, or otherwise meet each other. Are there bad guys? Sure! They fight evil people and kill them all the time. You already know what my Impiltur game looks like, even if it doesn't perfectly mirror what you wrote, because I put it up on Candlekeep before they kicked me off, but I'd like to think that I did some justice to your material, even if I failed in your mind. :) 6) I enjoy hard choices, moral dilemmas, and other things that many DMs just don't care to deal with. That's a conscious choice as a DM, but all of my players and I are in the 30 and up range. However, I realize that not everyone runs the game this way. 7) The simple truth is, the Shadow Weave and it's spawn of feats and selection promoted the idea in the mindset of gamers that "Evil is cool" or "It's okay to be somewhat evil." While I don't mind people playing neutral characters, or DMing a character who slides into evil over time, I don't think that the game should ACTIVELY encourage that sort of moral greyness in the alignment setup from a mechanical perspective. How you roleplay your character is your business. But Wizards should be in the business of promoting the clarity of it's own rules system.
createvmind 03-02-07, 01:08 PM	The Shadow weave is not evil simply becuase it's controlled by an evil deity, Mystra controls the weave and the weave has been used in far worse ways and for far longer than the shadow weave, doesn't make it evil. Talos is the god of storms, his followers use them to wreak havoc and destruction, doesn't make the storms evil. Mystra promotes the use of magic by Red wizards, doesn't make her or her weave evil if majority of Red wizards choose to use her weave for evil purposes.
MarkusTay63 03-02-07, 03:42 PM	-I'm Sha'Quessir as well, but I don't like how the Retreat ended. It's not really the fact that it did end, but the way that it did that gets me.Maybe thats why I hated it as well, it was just so "changed my mind guys, everyone go back". Plus you guys are a bunch of dirty stinkin' Elf Kissers if you ask me. :yuck: ;) 1) It popularized the Shadow Weave, which is still the bastard child of Richard Baker's birthright setting and never should have made it into the realms in the first place.I didn't know it was there, BR and CoW were the two settings I never bought a single producct for. Whats the point in using stuff from a failed setting? :confused: 5) The truth is, people don't all run D+D the same.Never heard of it, I play D&D. :P 6) I enjoy hard choices, moral dilemmas, and other things that many DMs just don't care to deal with. That's a conscious choice as a DM, but all of my players and I are in the 30 and up range. However, I realize that not everyone runs the game this way... <snip> While I don't mind people playing neutral characters, or DMing a character who slides into evil over time, I don't think that the game should ACTIVELY encourage that sort of moral greyness in the alignment setup from a mechanical perspective. How you roleplay your character is your business. But Wizards should be in the business of promoting the clarity of it's own rules system.Sounds like my kind of game, when I can I come over and play? :D
Xavier_of_Cormyr 03-02-07, 04:57 PM	Well, George, not that I'm inclined to argue with someone I really A) Like, and B) respect, but everything that came out of the City of Shade bit was negative for the realms on a Marketing level. 1) It popularized the Shadow Weave, which is still the bastard child of Richard Baker's birthright setting and never should have made it into the realms in the first place. Now we have useless things on this board like "Is the Shadow Weave Evil? Of COURSE it's evil, it's controlled by an evil god, therefore using it gives the evil god power." 2) It produced some BAD novels. And I mean REALLY bad novels. The kinds of novels that made my teeth itch. Even the Rage, The Rite, and The Ruin paled in comparison to this. 3) The Shadow Weave was never in theme for the Realms in the first place, and sticking it in there was just an excuse for cute feats and marketing tricks. It was a mechanic that created undue amounts of confusion. "Does all shadow magic come from the shadow weave? Yes or no?" The debate still rages. 4) Yes, I understand that you can look at it as "using existing characters." The point is that when they created these NPC's, they literally created a group of NPC's who could take over the world from their bedroom. When people create NPC's, they have to take care to think about "What would my PC's do if they were X, Y, or Z?" and examine all the possibilities. This is why I love your Impiltur stuff. Because you took the time to do this! :) I don't look at that as "using existing characters," and I'm sure you added a few, but the point is that the Law of Economy of Characters is a writing technique used to create dramatic tension and make people feel that the characters have meaning and interact with each other. Another cosmic, crushing epic level enemy doesn't do that, George. And I'm hoping you understand that as well as I do. 5) The truth is, people don't all run D+D the same. I run a very character driven, living world style realms where there are a lot of heroes in different parts of the world who can encounter, run into, or otherwise meet each other. Are there bad guys? Sure! They fight evil people and kill them all the time. You already know what my Impiltur game looks like, even if it doesn't perfectly mirror what you wrote, because I put it up on Candlekeep before they kicked me off, but I'd like to think that I did some justice to your material, even if I failed in your mind. :) 6) I enjoy hard choices, moral dilemmas, and other things that many DMs just don't care to deal with. That's a conscious choice as a DM, but all of my players and I are in the 30 and up range. However, I realize that not everyone runs the game this way. 7) The simple truth is, the Shadow Weave and it's spawn of feats and selection promoted the idea in the mindset of gamers that "Evil is cool" or "It's okay to be somewhat evil." While I don't mind people playing neutral characters, or DMing a character who slides into evil over time, I don't think that the game should ACTIVELY encourage that sort of moral greyness in the alignment setup from a mechanical perspective. How you roleplay your character is your business. But Wizards should be in the business of promoting the clarity of it's own rules system. first off- CREATIVEMIND: about time someone decided to champion the counterpoint of this debate... cheers :thumbsup: 1: mystra is good aligned now, so the weave is good then? news to me by that reasoning... (and for the shadow weave being popularized.. how is that BAD for marketing????) 2: if you're reffering to the Return of the Archwizards trilogy,there was nothing wrong with those books other than to break the long standing taboo- good mages & their ilk (the chosen, elven high mages, etc) wielded power absolute and ain't nobody gonna bully them... 3: so new editions to the currentgame format can never be introduced & fine tuned. ok, we'll just keep rehashing old crap. :rolleyes: 4: a nice balance to the Chosen IMO 5 & 6:ok, no arguement here... 7: getting back to what you talked about- the moral dilema of using the shadow weave is a great role playing hook. I can't help but play out a very "Star Wars like" dialogue between one of my players low level mage who is leaning towards the shadow weave, and a high level shadovar- its like teh emperor trying to turn luke to the dark side. fun gaming! (and we get to make all the Star Wars quotes we like) Bottom line is that I agree with you on the fact that everyone plays their game differently. The Shades & shadow weave are not for you, or a bunch of other people on this thread. But there are people, belive it or not, who are devote FR fans & long time D&D'ers, who like it. Bash it all you like, but don't call for it being phased out of the game.
MarkusTay63 03-02-07, 05:19 PM	Okay, so since Psionics are treated as magic in FR, then would an evil psionocist tap into the Shadoweave rather then the 'regular' one? Now that would definately bring the whole 'Jedi thing' into the Realms. Its about time Shar got some Sith Lords* on her side... ;) * You know, a similar group would make a GREAT anti-Chosen to oppose Mystra's. :eek:
Red_Wizard 03-02-07, 06:01 PM	Okay, so since Psionics are treated as magic in FR, then would an evil psionocist tap into the Shadoweave rather then the 'regular' one? Now that would definately bring the whole 'Jedi thing' into the Realms. Its about time Shar got some Sith Lords* on her side... ;) * You know, a similar group would make a GREAT anti-Chosen to oppose Mystra's. :eek: As much as Dark Jedi running around in the Realms is amusing, considering psionics don't tap the weave at all, it wouldn't suddenly tap the Shadow Weave, simply because the person was evil. ;)
MarkusTay63 03-02-07, 06:34 PM	As much as Dark Jedi running around in the Realms is amusing, considering psionics don't tap the weave at all, it wouldn't suddenly tap the Shadow Weave, simply because the person was evil. ;)I thought that in the Realms "psionics IS magic"? If thats the case, then where do they get the power? From the 'Mind Weave'? :confused:
Red_Wizard 03-02-07, 06:40 PM	I thought that in the Realms "psionics IS magic"? If thats the case, then where do they get the power? From the 'Mind Weave'? :confused: No psionics is treated as magic, soley for the purpose of the two interacting with one another. It still draws power from the Psions mind, which is why in something like dead magic, it still functions. This is set like this for the purpose of Dispelling, and nullifying one another (For example with Antimagic field), and factoring in spell resistance on the psionic power in question.
Stigger 03-02-07, 07:20 PM	Just because two things can interact with one another doesn't mean they're stemming from the same thing. Psionics come from within by definition, not some external power source, otherwise they'd just be another type of mage and not psionics.
MarkusTay63 03-02-07, 07:22 PM	Then an anti-magic field is a bit of a misnomer, it's more like an anti-erg shield. Would Disjunction effect psionic devices as well? That seems a little weird to me.
Stigger 03-02-07, 07:26 PM	Presumably, with the transparency rules being what they are. Not the best thought out ruleset to be certain, but functionally logical. Not like psionics haven't always been something of a bastard child in D&D though.
MarkusTay63 03-02-07, 07:31 PM	Another of Azoun's children, perhaps? ;)
Stigger 03-02-07, 07:33 PM	Could be... never know with that guy. :D
Krash 03-02-07, 08:04 PM	To touch on some of the points Msatran raises. I personally don't think that the introduction of Shade/the Shadow Weave has been a marketing disaster at all. From a pure business viewpoint I'm guessing that it has attracted more fans than it has repelled. Msatran, you still game in the Realms, shadow weave or no shadow weave. You may dislike the concept; you may have removed it from YOUR Realms; but you're still here. And no-one with an interest in Impiltur can "fail me" by deciding to go in a different direction to what I've chosen. The blank holes of the Realms (and the East has more than its fair share) are open to a myriad of interpretations. I'm sure that there are a bunch of people who could have come up with Impiltur stuff that other observers would consider superior to mine. Very sure. As with all creative endeavours, another's writings either "work" for someone or they don't. That applies just as much to the Shadow Weave as it does to Impiltur. Would I have brought Shade back to the Realms in 3E? Probably not. If I had brought them back, would I have done it differently? Likely yes. Does that make the writers/designers who did it the way they did "wrong"? No way. The Realms is a shared, creative environment. Not every creative decision is going to work for everyone. On balance though, I think it is a fascinating, glorious place. I spend a lot of time there - and it keeps on getting better and better.:) -- George Krashos
MarkusTay63 03-02-07, 08:24 PM	You take what they give you (meaning everyone: WotC, authors, fellow forum enthusiasts, and even CK writers, etc), look it over, decide what to keep and what to throw away... And Wallah! You have YOUR campaign. :D It's all good. I even found a few gems in the crazier scenarios found in the "How have you changed the Realms" thread.
Red_Wizard 03-02-07, 08:27 PM	As with all creative endeavours, another's writings either "work" for someone or they don't. That applies just as much to the Shadow Weave as it does to Impiltur. Would I have brought Shade back to the Realms in 3E? Probably not. If I had brought them back, would I have done it differently? Likely yes. Does that make the writers/designers who did it the way they did "wrong"? No way. The Realms is a shared, creative environment. Not every creative decision is going to work for everyone. On balance though, I think it is a fascinating, glorious place. I spend a lot of time there - and it keeps on getting better and better.:) -- George Krashos Well said.
Stigger 03-02-07, 08:31 PM	Very. Some good food for thought there.
msatran 03-02-07, 11:17 PM	First. To Markus. Contact me personally, I'll see if I have room. Second, George, I understand your feelings and the way you choose to believe. It just bothers me that people choose to contradict the text of things and ignore this magical thing called consistency. When Ao said "Gods, you have to do things for your worshippers" that means "You will do things, and your worshippers will do things for you. Those things will give you power." If a god gains power from his worshippers, then by logical definition, anything a god does/controls/uses gains them power. So why aren't Mystrans slaughtering Sharrans like ripe wheat? By that justification, they SHOULD be. They shouldn't suffer a shadow weave user to live, and they are the most numerous magic worshipping church in the world, because... EVIL people worship Mystra too. Manshoon's not changing his allegiance just because Shar has some evil magic ideas. Meleghost Starseer isn't either. He's the HIGH PRIEST OF MYSTRA IN WATERDEEP! And he's as EVIL as they come! :) The problem is that because you have dozens of evil wizards who worship Mystra, and believe that they rely on HER for power, the Sharrans should be quaking in their boots. Here are dozens of vile archmages with hundreds of personally researched spells, Zass Tam among them, who will gleefully turn you into a corpse, animate you, and use your innards to create furniture. :) Should the Sharrans be trying to convert them? Absolutely. Will they succeed? Probably not. And the consequences of those interactions will be decidedly not printable on a public board. My point, I guess, is not that I am eliminating the shadow weave from my Realms, because I didn't. I am, however saying that it never should have been there in the first place.
GothicDan 03-02-07, 11:43 PM	As Msatran said, there's many evil wizards that worship (or at least respect) Mystra. Like some other things in 3E, the Shadow Weave seems to have been made as a counter to some 'flaw' in the Realms that was never there in the first place ('rehabilitate' the Elves? Wtf? Were they sick?), but only perpetuated by numerous people on the boards complaining about it: namely, that Mystra is "good." With the introduction of a source of magic which, in the end, has the sole purpose of bringing about Shar's ultimate, nihilistic (EVIL) goals, to lure EVIL mages to her fold, this automatically cements Mystra in the 'Good' role. Which is funny, because that's the sort of thing that I thought people that consider themselves knowledgable about the Realms should be helping people understand better - the fact that currently Mystra in no way favors or hinders one alignment of spellcasters over the other in regards to accessing the Weave. Shar's entire plan is based on the assumption that she DOES in some way show disfavor towards the Evil ones, otherwise she'd never gain any power (and Mystra would never lose any). The same goes with the Princes of Shade. Holy crap, a bunch of epic level spellcasters who are, in some way, the champions of (a) Weave! Nevermind the fact that Ed spent decades exploring the intricate relations Mystra has with her Chosen, and how they've developed personality wise and historically. What the Realms needs is obviously more epic level anti-Chosen of Mystra, "since good is way too powerful in the Realms." I guess people are ignoring the Cult of the Dragon, the Zhentarim, the Rhundeen, Qysar Shoon IV, Larloch, Halaster, Thay, the Cowled Wizards of Amn, Watchtower Arcane of Luskan, Aumvor, and let's never forget the Twisted Rune! Are they not cool enough epic level spellcasters, so new ones had to be dropped in via a dimensional rift, with little to no characterization or reasoning? EVERYTHING about Shade and the Shadow Weave seems targeted to remedy conditions in the Realms that don't actually exist, and it only promotes newer players thinking that they do.
Dark Wizard 03-03-07, 12:03 AM	My point is this... He doesn't like the idea of Shade enclave just re-appearing out of the blue because it doesn't follow his law of economy of characters. D&D as a whole is all about upsetting this silly law. Even all the core books encourage you to change the rules as you see fit. Says it in the opening pages of all books. This law was meant to be broken. Man, I'm jumping back into this late, I probably shouldn't. It's one thing to change things as you see fit, it's another to change things for the sake of change. You said the books encourage changing the rules by the way, not changing the setting. Settings work a bit differently, they have more in terms of atmosphere. Even D&D is far from all about defying such a guideline. If it was, then we would not see the novels keep so much to the status quo, leading to the previous posts on powerful bad guys taking a beating most of the times they try to change things to their liking. If for instance, a designer felt the Chosen were an unbalancing force on the Realms, weighing events towards the side of good and thus making the setting less interesting for gaming and novels, they could add epic level evil mages like the ones from Shade, which was done. However, what if they looked at another reason for this sentiment, the high level and potent abilities of the Chosen. Maybe they could have lowered the level of the Chosen to help alleviate this perception. This was done with books like Champions of Ruin and Champions of Valor. CoV only stat'ed mid-level NPCs to act as allies and informants, which was helpful. CoR made many of the elder evils early epic, which was a change in the opposite direction. At this point it's too little too late. The Chosen, the Shades, and a number of other pre-existing epic NPCs could present serious challenges to these supposedly dreaded beings of Realms myth. Escalation does nothing for the setting, nor does a quick half-hearted fix; however, a more comprehensive examination of this supposed problem could get to the root of things. Taking a reference to Shade in the old Netheril sources might be in line with this so called economy of characters, but going about it more subtly would be more economical. This reminds me of a critic's review of the recent box office flop the Epic Movie. The critic said the Epic Movie made inane references to existing movies thinking it was clever and funny while making no statement on the context of the original or providing any meaningful material for thought in general. While I'm not aiming such a harsh shot at Shade's return, I'm saying that just because you make a reference to older material does not make something automatically good. I'm personally neutral to this whole Shade thing. I just felt a few points became messier than they had to be. It's all in how you see things I guess.
theartistformerlyknownas 03-03-07, 04:55 AM	For the sake of casting raise dead on some long-gone issues... Okay, that was UNCALLED for. :headexplo How can you make light of the single most maligned, conquered, and enslaved race on Earth? And if your a Braveheart fan, all the more reason to love 'em. ;) I'm Irish/German BTW, so I spend half my time making Beer, and the other half drinking it. :D You mean the Jews, right? ;) (And if you were wondering, I'm a half-irish, german-born jew who happens to be 100% alcoholic, so don't take me too seriously). .... Tolkien's dwarves were so Norse it hurt, even if their language was partially inspired by mingling Old Germanic and Hebrew. Look at the movies: they used the Futhark (Norse) rune language for Dwarven. This Scottish thing is fairly new. In my Realms, Dwarves are far more Norse inspired than scottish. I typically portray them with slavic and/or russian accents, elves with welsch and/or german accents (Sun elves sound like Nightcrawler), and gnomes have canadian accents. And they say that the Realms isn't similar to the real world... Always thought patriarchal lineage was one of the stupider ideas we ever came up with as a species... you don't always know who the father was, but you can generally speaking be pretty damned sure who mom was. Besides, who do you think really shaped his earliest education, dad or mom? Even if you say tutors, most of them were imported Greeks, so... yeah. Jewish lineage is passed down on the mother's side. But we're pretty much the only ones to do such... My point is this... He doesn't like the idea of Shade enclave just re-appearing out of the blue because it doesn't follow his law of economy of characters. D&D as a whole is all about upsetting this silly law. Even all the core books encourage you to change the rules as you see fit. Says it in the opening pages of all books. This law was meant to be broken. GEV, according to you, all laws are silly laws... :rolleyes: -I'm Sha'Quessir as well, but I don't like how the Retreat ended. It's not really the fact that it did end, but the way that it did that gets me. The ending of the Retreat made the elves seem far too human for my tastes. And yes, I can't stand the way it ended. I imagine it would come about centuries later, if ever, leaving the Realms for the wood elves and the occasional moon elf. I liked the idea of elves hiding themselves away, to the point where most other races had never met one. Anyway, that's all I got.
msatran 03-03-07, 01:18 PM	Thanks for the backup, Dan. I don't count Halaster on the list myself, but mainly because he's mostly looney and lives in his dungeon, inviting adventurers in for entertainment. So far, one of the favorite things I've done with him was put a coin slot at the base of a statue in undermountain. The PC's found a trap on the statue and failed to disarm it. They dropped a coin into the slot. The trap activated. Activate Trap. Insert Coin. There's something you don't see every day.
MarkusTay63 03-03-07, 03:01 PM	Like some other things in 3E, the Shadow Weave seems to have been made as a counter to some 'flaw' in the Realms that was never there in the first place, but only perpetuated by numerous people on the boards complaining about it: namely, that Mystra is "good." With the introduction of a source of magic which, in the end, has the sole purpose of bringing about Shar's ultimate, nihilistic (EVIL) goals, to lure EVIL mages to her fold, this automatically cements Mystra in the 'Good' role.Excellent point Dan! :D Somehow, you've taken the 'core' of 90% of the arguments on these boards and distilled it down to a single post. There's an old saying around these parts - "Don't 'fix' what ain't broken" You've so hit the nail on the head. In another thread we were talking about different energy types (regarding undead) and were trying to make some sense of things in the rules. Obviously, Negative energy is the opposite of positive energy, and neither is essentially 'good' or 'evil'. Then we have the Weave and arcane energy, and it's opposite the Shadow weave... but wait! Shadow energy isn't the opposite of Arcane energy, it's the opposite of radiant energy! Uh-oh... major league rule breakage there. If the two weaves represent opposites, then how can the energies derived from them NOT be opposites? So, then logically the Weave and Shadow Weave are not opposites. Mystra's the God of all magic and the weave, and since the Shadow weave is not it's opposite then Mystra MUST have jurisdiction over it. Uh-oh! Wrong again... so what the hell is it? Just an alternate way of casting? Then once again Mystra MUST have control over it, because otherwise, logically Mystra then ONLY controls Arcane magic. But she doesn't, in RAW she controls ALL magic, so it has to actually be a different form of energy Mystra has NO control over... yet Weave casters CAN use Shadow magic! WTF?! Uh-oh again! :eek: Let's move away from the Weave, shall we? One of the biggest arguments I see lately is that Mystra is too 'good' and so are her chosen. But as Dan has already so eloquently pointed out, they are technically supposed to be neutral, at least thats what Mystra's defenders keep saying. So if she's neutral (at her job, not her alignment), then why has Shar become her 'opposite'? That makes NO sense WHAT-SO-EVER! The opposite of evil is good, so therefore Mystra IS good... but wait, she has EVIl worshippers. In fact, 99% of all the evil casters in Faerun use her Weave! Uh-OH!!! Broken, broken, broken... So the people who use her weave do 'evil', and Shar's Weave is defianetly 'evil', so where are the good guys? Where's the pretty rainbow weave with the bunnies and magical unicorns? All this setting gets now is neutral and evil, not good vs evil? thats pretty dark, like Ravenloft, and doesn't sound like FR to me anymore... Sorry, but Dan has discovered the 'flaw' with the recent series of RSE's/changes - how can you fix something that WASN'T broken? The only thing you can do by messing with something that was already perfect is break it. End of story. Good call Dan! (also dark Wizard's points were relevant and good too) The ending of the Retreat made the elves seem far too human for my tastes. And yes, I can't stand the way it ended. I imagine it would come about centuries later, if ever, leaving the Realms for the wood elves and the occasional moon elf. I liked the idea of elves hiding themselves away, to the point where most other races had never met one.Yes, it was better that way, much more high-fantasy. I have a feeling the designers decided to pull the setting away from a more 'Tolkienesque' flavor and make it more 'gritty'. But everyone loved the Realms just the way Ed made them, thats why TSR bought them from him. It was probably THE smartest move they EVER made since writing the original rule booklet, and yet WotC, for some bizarre reason, thinks the Realms need 'fixin'. I don't get it? FR has always been about HIGH fantasy; if we wanted 'pulp fiction' we would play Eberron. You mean the Jews, right? ;) (And if you were wondering, I'm a half-irish, german-born jew who happens to be 100% alcoholic, so don't take me too seriously).Actually, I tend to think of the Jews as conquerors, but thats neither here nor there... :rolleye2: Years ago, my brother had a best friend and partner from Ireland who didn't drink. My brother, on the other hand, is an alcohalic, and proud of it. He asked his friend Shaun one day why he didn't drink, and accused him of being 'un-Irish'. He told my brother "there are only two kinds of Irishmen, those that don't drink and those that are alcohalics. I have seven brothers and sisters back in Ireland, and they are ALL alcohalics". I think the Irish have been conquered so many times because they were always too hung-over to fight a war. Note, Israel is FREE, Ireland STILL isn't. ;)
Xavier_of_Cormyr 03-03-07, 03:19 PM	i like how people use "RAW" and "canon" in the arguement for & against the shadow weave. whatever the designers create becomes RAW- they control the setting. if Elminster dies & is reincarnated as a fruit fly in the next RSE, then *poof* its canon. so let it be written, so let it be done... dude...:whatsthis and just to clarify, i don't mean to single anyone out here. i just think we should just agree to disagree here. what happened to the good old days when we did creative stuff on these boards?:confused:
miscellany 03-03-07, 03:34 PM	Like some other things in 3E, the Shadow Weave seems to have been made as a counter to some 'flaw' in the Realms that was never there in the first place, but only perpetuated by numerous people on the boards complaining about it... There was a flaw, for those who don't believe in revisionist history. The 2E Realms pushed the setting in such a way that Mystra was perceived as not only Good but her minions as all-powerful do-gooders (each in their own way, but serving Good none the less). Note in 2E Mystra's alignment was changed to NG from LN, as it was in 1E. If the gaming public perceives Mystra and her minions as doing all the foiling of evil bad guys then what's the point of adventuring in the Realms? Ergo in 3E Mystra's Chosen are shone to be all of them slightly mad, imperfect and less then capable of handling all the threats that face the Realms (as Ed intended them, no less). Evil was given its proper facelift as well, with evil cabals and organizations shown to be capable and deadly, as they always were but for the fact that during 2E the rules (and to a much greater extent the novels) portrayed them incorrectly thanks to TSR's code of ethics. While the Shadow Weave was never part of the Realms Ed conceived of, it certainly wasn't added on without care or thought. On the contrary it was one part of a larger effort to re-balance the Realms and make it palatable to game in once more. A canard that can be forgotten: Things were changed in 3E because people whined on the Realms-L list and later on message boards. Now anyone with an interest in the truth knows this is not how WotC does things, although those who grew up on these message boards will have an obviously hard time accepting that. Right, Daniel? :P
Stigger 03-03-07, 03:51 PM	May have been intended to be this way from the beginning, but it doesn't change the fact that it is not the way it has been presented in the past... you build up an expectation of the flavor, feel, and theme of a setting, and then wake up one morning and find out that it was the wrong stuff that the company had presented and oops, sorry, we're changing it back to the way it was supposed to be, but never really got seriously presented as, there, isn't everything all better? Umm... no. All it does is leave the people who grew up on the 'wrong' version confused and bitter as to wtf they're doing to my setting? It should hardly be surprising that there's this much vehemence against what essentially amounts to a radical shift in the feel and mood of the setting and its theme. Maybe you like it, maybe you don't, but it doesn't make either opinion intrinsically right or wrong. My major complaint is that a lot of the consistency of the Realms seems to have flown out the window... that is my perception of things. I can point out things to back that perception up, and other can point out things that disprove it... Maybe they had good reasons for changing things, maybe they didn't and did it just for the sake of change... I don't know one way or another. But I do know I don't like the direction I feel the setting is changing towards. Of course I'll look at new material coming out, evaluate it, and then use my dollar to vote as to whether I like it or not. It's pretty simple really. But either way, it doesn't mean I have to just curl up and become voiceless about the way I feel about it.
BrennonGoldeye 03-03-07, 09:13 PM	miscellany, I just love it when you chime in. Gets right to the heart of it. Mmm...good times.:whatsthis
miscellany 03-03-07, 09:47 PM	miscellany, I just love it when you chime in. Gets right to the heart of it. Mmm...good times.:whatsthisHello Brennon, To be fair I should say that in essence Dan (and later Markus) was thinking in the right direction, and that Dan was talking about how things are in the Realms vs. us (misc and me) who were talking about the perception of the Realms by the majority of the public (that is, outside of the Realms looking in) at the time of the switch to 3E. The problem was Dan mostly skipped over the outside perception when providing evidence to support his criticism. Had he not done that, he could have instead illustrated to us all how the Realms have always been and contrasted this with what 1E/2E/3E have shown us, prior to leveling an otherwise fair criticism of the Shadow Weave. IMO of course. Miscellany hopes you all have a great dinner we can't decide between pizza or mexican food or maybe leftovers or cereal for dinner so whatever just eat well and sleep tight don't let the bedbugs bite! :D
msatran 03-03-07, 11:22 PM	The thing is, that the very confusion that sprouts out of the Shadow Weave is caused by the very dichotomy between these opinions. I wouldn't have a problem with the Shadow Weave if my players, some of whom are as big of fans of the Realms as I am, didn't ask me things like: Mike, what the !#$#! is this? Is this like the weave, but different? How can they possibly not have evil only on this? or "You can worship an evil god and not be evil, right, so this Shadow Weave stuff makes sense, right?" Well...you can have an evil god as a PATRON and not be evil. You just can't be a cleric of most evil deities and not be evil. If you aren't evil when you start, the logical progression of following the rituals, rites, and processes of worshipping an evil god will certainly make you wind up there. Likewise, you can't draw your power from an evil source (Shar) without eventually winding up there in the camp of evil. Eventually, a deity like this is going to demand SACRIFICES. And they won't be goats and donkeys. The problem is that in addition to blurring the lines between what makes a wizard, it also blurs the lines between what makes a CLERIC. Remember, all CLERICS draw from the weave too. This is what makes the whole shadow weave issue so bloody insane. If I'm a cleric of shar, do I have to take all the shadow weave feats? I probably should. But if I don't, am I a bad cleric of shar? What will happen to me if my fellow clerics find out? (See above part about demanding sacrifices....) This is why I don't like the Shadow Weave. Because ALL forms of magic, not just arcane magic, draw from the weave. If I'm a Ranger and I worship Shar, do I need the Shadow feats? If I'm a Blackguard and I worship Shar, do I need the Shadow feats? God forbid I should be in a game that uses Book of Nine Swords or Magic of Incarnum. The hole is in mechanics vs. theme.
miscellany 03-03-07, 11:49 PM	I don't know, msatran, it' seems like your describing problems that don't actually exist. The very existence of the Shadow Weave is a secret. There’s no ‘demand’ placed on those who keep Shar as a patron to use the Shadow Weave. Those that are arguably closer to her (Clerics, possibly Rangers) are still not under any demand. The rules don’t call for it. So, this leaves us with what a player wants. Thematically, it’s an option for players to choose the Shadow Weave suite of feats if their DM approves of it and it fits a character’s concept. Players shouldn’t be required to burn feats if they don’t want to, unless it fits the concept they are after. Again, the rules don’t call Sharan clerics to take those feats automatically. Remember it’s common in the Realms for individuals to pray to many gods, even if they hold one Patron. An evil NPC (or PC) will pray to Shar to help a secret be kept, Cyric to hope a lie holds as truth and is not discovered, Bane for aid in dominating one’s enemies, etc… I doubt Shar will require the deaths of her Clerics and worshippers as sacrifices. If she did, she’d loose her power. So anyway we settled on leftovers for dinner. ;)
Lord Karsus 03-03-07, 11:53 PM	I doubt Shar will require the deaths of her Clerics and worshippers as sacrifices. If she did, she’d loose her power. -She does that fairly commonly, actually.
miscellany 03-04-07, 12:02 AM	Sounds like I need to catch up on my novel reading? ?
Lord Karsus 03-04-07, 12:06 AM	-Hmm...The novels that feature Shar the most are probably Shadowbred and another one...from The Priests' series...Mistress of the Night?
createvmind 03-04-07, 12:07 AM	Actually she requires sacrifices usually of things close to her followers to further draw them solely to her (family, loved ones, etc...). It would be foolish to use the novels that have featured Shar worshipping villians since they are doomed to die or lose in battle to the novel's hero. I highly doubt she haphazardly throws her followers into the grinder simply just to see if they are true followers. Currently almost all of the "famous" villians of Shar are all alive and well and about their business in Faerun.
johnkretzer 03-04-07, 12:28 AM	I have always had a dislike for the City of Shade and the Shadow Weave. 1)The City of Shade should be pretty leveled within a years of it's arrival. It represents too much lost Nethereese lore for any country in the Realms to ignore. I don't care about the power-level of the city...it wouldn't be enough(also the race of Shades is propable the lamest race around...as a 1st level spell neutralizes their racials.) Also the existing evil power groups were good enough for me I didn't need more. 2)The Shadow Weave was also unnecessary as it doesn't add anything because Mystra has always granted spells to evil people. Also the problem with the choosen is this having them all powerful with enemies that match them makes for a lousy RPG setting, but it sells a lot of novels. That has always been the bad thing about the Realms to me is that it is a RPG setting and a shared world for writting novels in.
msatran 03-04-07, 09:02 PM	The very existence of the Shadow Weave is a secret, huh? All right. Then explain the Champions of Ruin web enhancement to me. There are at least 30 people worshipping Shar in that temple who have ALL the shadow feats. You can't tell me that in a world as big as this that A) Someone doesn't have a Knowledge: Religion or Knowledge: Arcana check to know of the existence of this and warn people, or that B) Someone, upon being confronted with these abilities, won't eventually go...Crap, these people almost killed me with those abilties. Quick, guys, remove all his magic items from his corpse. Speak With Dead. How did you do that? It never ceases to amaze me how people can just assume collective stupidity on the part of an entire planet. The point is, Player Characters are smart, and if your PC's are smart, you have to expect the same level of intelligence from everyone else around them.
MarkusTay63 03-04-07, 09:15 PM	Yup, no-one noticed Shade at all. ;) At least in my campaign... therefore the Shadow Weave IS still a secret. Seriously though, I think since that series came out the whole 'secret weave' thing is pretty much tossed out the window. Like so much else.............
Dark Wizard 03-04-07, 09:38 PM	If it's a secret, how can it be a viable choice? Technically it requires the DM to allow the players to find out about the Shadow Weave in order to take the feats. That's a bit convoluted for a supposed choice left solely to players. Based on what the Shadow Weave represents, practically all decently devout worshipers of Shar should take the Shadow Weave feats, with exceptions being special agents used for important missions, infiltration, and such. Using the shadow weave furthers Shar's goals while weakening one of her age old enemies and thus the abrasive existence of the universe that Shar opposes. As it is now, the whole Shadow Weave thing is wishy washy, an incomplete metagame step on the part of the designers. The Shadow Weave really should be an all or nothing sort of move if it is to have an appropriately significant effect on the world. Unless of course the Shadow Weave is just a big distraction from some super-secret nihilistic goal of Shar's. However, such a development seems out of character for the designers, way too far off track from what they have shown their direction for the setting to be. Sort of how the Star Wars prequels played out how everyone thought they would and not with the crazy (award worthy) plot twists some fans I knew said would happen.
GothicDan 03-04-07, 09:57 PM	Also, the fact that there's a REND SHADOW WEAVE spell means that the Shadow Weave is no longer anything close to a secret. The Chosen of Mystra know about it; it threatens the Weave. Thus, every spellcaster and guardian and ally of Mystra and her faith should be fully aware of it, and know how to combat it.
MarkusTay63 03-04-07, 10:17 PM	Excellent point Dan. So every Mage should know about it, which means every Sage should know about it, which means anyone who walks into a temple of the Gods of Knowledge (Milil, Gond, Oghma, and Deneir) or those of magic (Mystra, Azuth, Velsharoon, and Savras) could find out about it. Including Cormyrian Farmer with pitchfork #2. ;) Some secret.... :rolleye2:
Alediran 03-04-07, 10:20 PM	As Msatran said, there's many evil wizards that worship (or at least respect) Mystra. Like some other things in 3E, the Shadow Weave seems to have been made as a counter to some 'flaw' in the Realms that was never there in the first place ('rehabilitate' the Elves? Wtf? Were they sick?), but only perpetuated by numerous people on the boards complaining about it: namely, that Mystra is "good." With the introduction of a source of magic which, in the end, has the sole purpose of bringing about Shar's ultimate, nihilistic (EVIL) goals, to lure EVIL mages to her fold, this automatically cements Mystra in the 'Good' role. Which is funny, because that's the sort of thing that I thought people that consider themselves knowledgable about the Realms should be helping people understand better - the fact that currently Mystra in no way favors or hinders one alignment of spellcasters over the other in regards to accessing the Weave. Shar's entire plan is based on the assumption that she DOES in some way show disfavor towards the Evil ones, otherwise she'd never gain any power (and Mystra would never lose any). The same goes with the Princes of Shade. Holy crap, a bunch of epic level spellcasters who are, in some way, the champions of (a) Weave! Nevermind the fact that Ed spent decades exploring the intricate relations Mystra has with her Chosen, and how they've developed personality wise and historically. What the Realms needs is obviously more epic level anti-Chosen of Mystra, "since good is way too powerful in the Realms." I guess people are ignoring the Cult of the Dragon, the Zhentarim, the Rhundeen, Qysar Shoon IV, Larloch, Halaster, Thay, the Cowled Wizards of Amn, Watchtower Arcane of Luskan, Aumvor, and let's never forget the Twisted Rune! Are they not cool enough epic level spellcasters, so new ones had to be dropped in via a dimensional rift, with little to no characterization or reasoning? EVERYTHING about Shade and the Shadow Weave seems targeted to remedy conditions in the Realms that don't actually exist, and it only promotes newer players thinking that they do. My thoughts too, it's not surprise, since I'm also Ar'Tel'Quessir. Excellent point Dan. So every Mage should know about it, which means every Sage should know about it, which means anyone who walks into a temple of the Gods of Knowledge (Milil, Gond, Oghma, and Deneir) or those of magic (Mystra, Azuth, Velsharoon, and Savras) could find out about it. Including Cormyrian Farmer with pitchfork #2. ;) Some secret.... :rolleye2: If it isnt a secret anymore, then Shar has no friggin claim over it, it was the only argument she could pull to keep it under her watch. Therefore there is no way Shar can stop Mystra from taking it.
GothicDan 03-04-07, 10:29 PM	This is one of the reasons I really don't like Shar being WotC's new "big bad." Because to characterize her plots in ANY way means that SOMEONE in the world of FR itself has to find out about them... Which means they're no longer secrets. Shar, I think, was the DM's ULTIMATE plot hook. Bane was the more overt, worldly threat.
Alediran 03-04-07, 10:33 PM	Bane was the more overt, worldly threat. Don't give him too much credit, he was lucky when his followers could keep a city conquered for more than a week :P
createvmind 03-04-07, 10:45 PM	Ummmmmm, The naming of a spell for game and mechanic reasons doesn't make it common knowledge just as a feat allowing the use of the shadow weave doesn't make that common knowledge as well. And even if one wishes to assume thats the case, I'm pretty sure Shar has the advantage in being able to pinpoint where such a "rending" is occuring and make it her business to see that threat silenced, thus keeping such a spell spreading to a minimum. However I will post the question to Greenwood in hope of getting a clear answer for all those interested.
Xavier_of_Cormyr 03-04-07, 10:50 PM	The very existence of the Shadow Weave is a secret, huh? All right. Then explain the Champions of Ruin web enhancement to me. There are at least 30 people worshipping Shar in that temple who have ALL the shadow feats. You can't tell me that in a world as big as this that A) Someone doesn't have a Knowledge: Religion or Knowledge: Arcana check to know of the existence of this and warn people, or that B) Someone, upon being confronted with these abilities, won't eventually go...Crap, these people almost killed me with those abilties. Quick, guys, remove all his magic items from his corpse. Speak With Dead. How did you do that? It never ceases to amaze me how people can just assume collective stupidity on the part of an entire planet. The point is, Player Characters are smart, and if your PC's are smart, you have to expect the same level of intelligence from everyone else around them. ok, that's just waaay too much metagaming going on in that post. let's all put down our sourcebooks & just try to see the other side of the arguement (which is virtually non-existant; the point has been driven- the horse died 3 pages ago- put down the club) ;) the existance of the shadow weave is not COMMON knowledge, and even to those who know of it, the specifics are still pretty mysterious. :detect:
MarkusTay63 03-04-07, 11:11 PM	But it has clearly been stated in canon that Elminster travels to OUR WORLD fairly frequently, and therefore has access to all of the sourcebooks. :P
Lord Karsus 03-04-07, 11:27 PM	Including Cormyrian Farmer with pitchfork #2. ;) Some secret.... :rolleye2: -That guy is a lot smarter than he looks... But it has clearly been stated in canon the Elminster travels to OUR WORLD fairly frequently, and therefore has access to all of the sourcebooks. :P -...Hmm. That certainly puts a damper on so many things...I don't think he'd be allowed to do that, though. The second he purchases a Forgotten Realms sourcebook, Al Gore, Gary Gygax, Stephen Hawking, and the black woman from Star Trek show up, and make sure that the multiverse is not destroyed. :)
Alediran 03-04-07, 11:50 PM	-...Hmm. That certainly puts a damper on so many things...I don't think he'd be allowed to do that, though. The second he purchases a Forgotten Realms sourcebook, Al Gore, Gary Gygax, Stephen Hawking, and the black woman from Star Trek show up, and make sure that the multiverse is not destroyed. :) If they can stop Elminster then why the real world is closer to WoD?
Dark Wizard 03-05-07, 12:03 AM	Aren't the sourcebooks a record of what has passed and not what is to come?
Lord Karsus 03-05-07, 12:06 AM	If they can stop Elminster then why the real world is closer to WoD? -Never played WoD, so I wouldn't know... Aren't the sourcebooks a record of what has passed and not what is to come? -Cryptic plothooks reveal all too much, especially if one is actually from Faerűn. I wonder what Elminster would say about his stats...?
MarkusTay63 03-05-07, 12:09 AM	Hmmmm... you know... :thinks: This thread just made me realize WHY Elminster's SO powerful. He probably read the spoiler for the next FR module and is going to make sure he's NOT HOME at the time. :D
Dark Wizard 03-05-07, 12:13 AM	-Cryptic plothooks reveal all too much, especially if one is actually from Faerűn. Wouldn't that cause self-fulfilling prophecies? Otherwise theycould be predictions made by the relater of such information, like how economists make projections or how Hari Seldon does with psychohistory but with magic. I wonder what Elminster would say about his stats...? "I totally deserve ten more levels, the special ability Randy Chick Magnet (Ex), and some more ranks in Perform: dance."
MarkusTay63 03-05-07, 12:14 AM	"I totally deserve ten more levels, the special ability Randy Chick Magnet (Ex), and some more ranks in Perform: dance."LOL :rofl: That just SO has to be a FEAT! :D
Alediran 03-05-07, 12:19 AM	-Never played WoD, so I wouldn't know... Vampires, werewolves, wraiths, humans with the power to alter reality and other things all runing in an alternative real world on the verge of total destruction (since the last three thousand years, given or taken a few seconds). The worst part is that everything supernatural is forced to be "invisible" to the eyes of common humans (if you are a Mage and you do a fireball in front of common humans the threads of reality will slap you. I hate that part, they give you power and they don't allow you to use it as you want). A tipical joke is that 9 out of 10 sentient beings in WoD are supernaturals. Coupled with a lowsy system that makes crossovers a headache because superatural abilities are handled different on each game. That is WoD in a few words. Not even counting the fanatics (blech), they made us look like normal people watching LotR.
Stigger 03-05-07, 08:44 AM	I would probably suggest that the sheer existance of a multi-national group like the Guardians of the Weave from Champions of Valor, and the governmental sanctioning and empowerment they receive would pretty strongly indicate that at the very least more than a few governments and a lot of mages were well aware of the Shadow Weave...
Lord Karsus 03-05-07, 10:44 AM	He probably read the spoiler for the next FR module and is going to make sure he's NOT HOME at the time. :D -Good point. Well, now we know that Elminster lives through that ordeal. (As if they would've offed El, anyway...) :) Wouldn't that cause self-fulfilling prophecies? -Not if one goes out of their way to counter them, no.
MarkusTay63 03-05-07, 12:42 PM	I would probably suggest that the sheer existance of a multi-national group like the Guardians of the Weave from Champions of Valor, and the governmental sanctioning and empowerment they receive would pretty strongly indicate that at the very least more than a few governments and a lot of mages were well aware of the Shadow Weave...Since we are on this (multi-national common-cause stuff), I was doing a little reading last night, and found a group that contains BOTH Harpers and Red Wizards! :eek: Its toward the back of serpent Kingdoms, supposedly a group set up by Helm priests to combat 'Yuan-ti' infestations. Pretty sweet, I love stuff like that.
Xavier_of_Cormyr 03-05-07, 01:03 PM	Hmm. That certainly puts a damper on so many things...I don't think he'd be allowed to do that, though. The second he purchases a Forgotten Realms sourcebook, Al Gore, Gary Gygax, Stephen Hawking, and the black woman from Star Trek show up, and make sure that the multiverse is not destroyed. that was the funniest s**t... heh heh "I totally deserve ten more levels, the special ability Randy Chick Magnet (Ex), and some more ranks in Perform: dance." oh god.. i guess i failed a save somewhere... i lost that feat 5 months ago & woke up with the "married guy" template
msatran 03-05-07, 02:42 PM	Xavier: I fail to see how figuring out how someone cast a really powerful necromancy spell at you despite the fact that they more than likely shouldn't have the ability to do so is metagaming. Those feats make casters of certain spell types WAY more powerful in their chosen area, and a simple spellcraft check made while the guy is casting will tell you that something is different. Read the way skills work. If the players say "What the hell? That shouldn't happen! Let's cast Speak With Dead on him and figure out how he did that!" Then that's what happens. That's called ROLEPLAYING. I'm sorry you've confused it with metagaming, but you forget that an INT of 16 is effectively an IQ of 160. That's the starting INT for an elite array wizard. Now let's add about 7 levels to that elite array wizard, and make him level 8. Now his INT is 18. He probably has a headband of intellect +2, so his INT is 20. Now his IQ is 200. I'm sorry. He's gonna suspect something's up, Xavier. The DM is required to give players the benefit of the points they paid in. You're asking people to break the fourth wall and metagame in the other direction, by the way, by collectively assuming that people don't know something that any 5th level party can discover. And 5th level adventurers in the Realms are NOT mighty. This is the problem with your argument. If Speak with Dead was an 8th level spell, I'd be in complete and total agreement with you. But it isn't. You're using arbitrary declarations that don't make any sense in the first place when simple common sense will tell you this. The law of averages says that SOMEONE out there will do it, and HAS done it already, or these feats and spells like Rend Shadow Weave wouldn't exist. Plus, the knowledge has to exist somewhere, as many of the other wise people on this board pointed out, or NO ONE CAN LEARN THESE FEATS. I run a world with training rules, so someone has to be able to TEACH them to you. Though I do find it kind of funny to hear Cormyrian Farmer With Pitchfork #2 discussing the Shadow Weave. Farmer 1: Yeah, Mystra's a real powerful goddess, all right. There's a little bit o' magic in everything, even these tomatoes. Farmer 2: Well, Ah done heard about this thing that the Lady 'o Night's doin' called the Shadow Weave. Them Shar Worshippers tryin to put a little bit of Shadow into your tomatoes... Farmer 1: Bane's Black !@#$$!@@! Ah KNEW something was wrong with my crop this year!
Stigger 03-05-07, 03:08 PM	Shadow tomatoes... what an evil thought... must use that... :plotting:
Lord Karsus 03-05-07, 03:23 PM	Though I do find it kind of funny to hear Cormyrian Farmer With Pitchfork #2 discussing the Shadow Weave. Farmer 1: Yeah, Mystra's a real powerful goddess, all right. There's a little bit o' magic in everything, even these tomatoes. Farmer 2: Well, Ah done heard about this thing that the Lady 'o Night's doin' called the Shadow Weave. Them Shar Worshippers tryin to put a little bit of Shadow into your tomatoes... Farmer 1: Bane's Black !@#$$!@@! Ah KNEW something was wrong with my crop this year! -You know, you do a pretty good Cormyrian Farmer with Pitchfork #2 impression. I am impressed. Have I found a protoge? oh god.. i guess i failed a save somewhere... i lost that feat 5 months ago & woke up with the "married guy" template -That was pretty funny. :)
createvmind 03-05-07, 04:48 PM	Xavier: I fail to see how figuring out how someone cast a really powerful necromancy spell at you despite the fact that they more than likely shouldn't have the ability to do so is metagaming. Those feats make casters of certain spell types WAY more powerful in their chosen area, and a simple spellcraft check made while the guy is casting will tell you that something is different. Read the way skills work. If the players say "What the hell? That shouldn't happen! Let's cast Speak With Dead on him and figure out how he did that!" Then that's what happens. That's called ROLEPLAYING. I'm sorry you've confused it with metagaming, but you forget that an INT of 16 is effectively an IQ of 160. That's the starting INT for an elite array wizard. Now let's add about 7 levels to that elite array wizard, and make him level 8. Now his INT is 18. He probably has a headband of intellect +2, so his INT is 20. Now his IQ is 200. Farmer 1: Bane's Black !@#$$!@@! Ah KNEW something was wrong with my crop this year! I disagree and your version is just a more subtle form of metagaming although within the "spirit" somewhat of the game. Assuming the caster is nowhere near the BBEG, just an NPC defeated at some point in the storyline. I'm strictly speaking of in the case of the shadow weave scenario, you combat a caster who's spells seem difficult to counter or resist, you defeat said caster. Why would not you naturally assume other than his spells being more potent or possibly of the evil variety, vile, negative, various planar type magic, spelllike ability or metamagic effect upon it. What would possibly lead to "shadow weave" and Hmmmm "THIS particular guy we should speak with his spirit because I think he did something odd, so lets question him on that?" But lets go with that, how would you possibly formulate your question and it not be metagaming to lead to you getting an answer that would be provide you this "revelation' of "WHAT! There's another weave?" IF the will save fails, then YOUR Cleric caster will ask questions that you pose to him such as, "What kind of spell did you cast at my companion here?" Cryptic reponse, "A spell to kill him!" If the cleric is clueless and not part of your metagame mentality he has no idea what exactly you are seeking to find out, you as a non-cleric or one who has never spoken with the dead won't realize how difficult it is to gain information in this manner. WE could go back and forth of course but end result is you are not going to come up with shadow weave just like that, especially if you have a halfway decent DM. And the only way you could do so is by phrasing questions to single out assumption of shadow weave which would obviously be metagaming. You would have no way to remotely make that assumption over ALL the others I named above again without metagaming. Again if the caster is just one of the encounters, how do you convince your cleric to pray for "Speak with Dead" spell so you can get this information, how do you convince rest of party this is necessary. Secondly if cleric already has the spell prepared "go figga" it was probably prepared to deal with particular adversary just in case, again how do you get party to say ok to this without it being metagaming. More importantly I doubt parties are going around speaking with dead willy nilly simply due to it being frowned upon by most cultures and most authorities. Example, Ed Greenwood has stated that very little is known of several of the Seven Sisters, including their actual names and the fact that many could walk by them and not have a clue who they are. He's mentioned this about many weave spells as well and the fact that there are male clergy in Elistraee's order currently. This information is obscure to the masses of Faerun but the Shadow weave owned by the goddess of secrets is not obscure? I'm sorry. He's gonna suspect something's up, Xavier. The DM is required to give players the benefit of the points they paid in. I agree with you 100%, will suspect something, have no idea how he will remotely come up with Shadow weave. Now to support your argument, if they find shadow weave items and spell book the clearly he can now continue down that path of investigation. If you'll notice, the Gaurdians of the Weave founder even after finding such still had to research and seek divination to come up with " Ohh S**T! An evil weave!"
GothicDan 03-05-07, 04:53 PM	And he came up with it. It's a direct, blatant threat to Mystra. The agents of Mystra should be SPREADING knowledge of the Shadow Weave, ACTIVELY. And, the last time I played in a 3E game, my Necromancer/Cleric prayed for Speak with Dead every session when we weren't actively encountering a major conflict/combat. It's a freaking USEFUL spell - one of the most useful ones in the game. There's nothing metagame-y about it. You're confusing metagaming with intelligence, Creative.
Alediran 03-05-07, 05:10 PM	And, the last time I played in a 3E game, my Necromancer/Cleric prayed for Speak with Dead every session when we weren't actively encountering a major conflict/combat. It's a freaking USEFUL spell - one of the most useful ones in the game. That is one of the reasons I like my campaign, since all characters are elves they have the race prejudice against disturbing the dead. The guy who plays the avariel cleric attempted to do that, to get some valuable information that could have meant the end of chapter 1 under other circumstances, but the godess Aerdrie denied him the spell because there wasn't a valid reason to do it, and he is now halfway on the road to become an ex-cleric.
GothicDan 03-05-07, 05:23 PM	Speak with Dead is grey necromancy. As Karsus has pointed out before, Sehanine is only truly against Black Necromancy. I would really see no reason why any Seldarine would deny someone the casting of Speak with Dead on a dead elf, unless there was something harmful to come from it. :)
createvmind 03-05-07, 05:37 PM	Yeah Alediran thanks, I'm speaking on roleplaying and the spirit of what the game is about, somehow I'm told I'm confusing Intelligence for Metagaming when I clearly stated I was speaking on roleplay and THAT particular scenario. Sometimes I get the impression intelligent people have no idea how to have fun without having all contingencies covered and in control of events. Simbul possesses a High Intelligence yet she is too often ruled by her emotions. Elminster is just a plain wise ass nympho with a good heart centuries after having gained a high intelligence and clearly able to understand his keeping a good heart and open mind will cause him no need of pain and grief. But I guess it's not about playing or being a person or character type, it's about making sure your character will be able to find ways to access whatever he/she so desires simply because a scource book prints it. Speak with undead is also frowned upon in my game dependent upon where the party is and also can affect the person using it or abusng it. Speaking with dead almost every session of gameplay......wow. I guess that could be fun enjoyable roleplay for you, I don't know about the rest of the party but I guess it could work............I guess. Thanks for clearing up my confusion although I really don't understand how someone can determine such a thing by what I wrote but thanks anyway.
Alediran 03-05-07, 06:04 PM	Speak with Dead is grey necromancy. As Karsus has pointed out before, Sehanine is only truly against Black Necromancy. I would really see no reason why any Seldarine would deny someone the casting of Speak with Dead on a dead elf, unless there was something harmful to come from it. :) The dead one was just a lowsy orc, but the players WANTED to find information about who staged the attack of orcs to Mithral Hall (yes, it was a diversion attack, planed by a cleric of shar, but my player didn't even considered the posibility that the orcs attacked because they wanted). He was plainly metagaming and I used that little fact about elves to stop him. He is also a cleric of Aerdrie Faenya. The whole plot of the clerigy of Shar didn't even involved the destruction of elves, so there was no good reason for him to use Speak with Dead. I'll only allow magic that is related with the afterlife if it's a case of absolute need (like what Richard Baker did with the resurrection of Fflar). Speaking with dead almost every session of gameplay......wow. I guess that could be fun enjoyable roleplay for you, I don't know about the rest of the party but I guess it could work............I guess. In cases like this I would apply the Cthulhu's famous sanity check for the player, it's a good way to curb that kind of gaming. After all, speaking with dead people shouldn't be something that happens all time.
createvmind 03-05-07, 06:17 PM	I feel your pain, I have a player who is a metagaming maniac, they've come across a sword that I said out loud was talking to one of his companions via telepathy " Sterling, the sword wants you to wield it against it's creators sworn enemy... didn't say who (just to see his reaction). He immediately all of a sudden now is trying to convince the rest of party to take sword from her, she's been carrying it for a tenday now and clearly said the sword could talk to her, no reaction prior (because I was passing notes). I of course have gone back to sticky notes but he's hell bent on all of a sudden having his character concerned for Sterling's well-being ten days after the fact. I even mistakenly in heat of moment blurted out what an amulet (instead of magic amulet I said it's actual name), he immediately put on the amulet unidentified. This is the same player who tells everyone else especially the sticky-fingered Bard to not put on unidentified magic items. Of course the other unidentified items have not found there way onto his body slots except for this one.
Alediran 03-05-07, 06:44 PM	I even mistakenly in heat of moment blurted out what an amulet (instead of magic amulet I said it's actual name), he immediately put on the amulet unidentified. This is the same player who tells everyone else especially the sticky-fingered Bard to not put on unidentified magic items. Of course the other unidentified items have not found there way onto his body slots except for this one. That could work in benefit for you, just have another "slip" with an item, but make that item a cursed one, with something very nasty on store for it.
Stigger 03-05-07, 07:13 PM	I'm at a loss as to how a Speak with Dead is metagaming by default... sure it can be abused, like pretty much anything, but it's sorta the DM's job to control the flow of information, not pass judgement on the tactics employed by his PC's just because it would mess up the story a bit. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I can't understand taking away such basic a tactic as speak with dead when you can frustrate their questions with creative answers instead.
Alediran 03-05-07, 07:38 PM	I'm at a loss as to how a Speak with Dead is metagaming by default... sure it can be abused, like pretty much anything, but it's sorta the DM's job to control the flow of information, not pass judgement on the tactics employed by his PC's just because it would mess up the story a bit. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I can't understand taking away such basic a tactic as speak with dead when you can frustrate their questions with creative answers instead. The tactic I employed would fall in the creative answers bag. Elves don't feel comfortable with disturbing the eternal sleep of the dead and only do it in cases of RSE. It wasn't an emergency exit solution, my player tried to stomp over that part of the lore (after all, what can a ****** orc say about those manipulating his clan?) and got punished.
createvmind 03-05-07, 07:54 PM	I never said anything about denying use of spell, I said exactly what you said just now, a DM worth his salt will easily be able to circumvent a person "possibly attempting" to metagame a particualr answer using the spell. I personally would provide just enough to drive the player batty making him do something as crazy as trying to carry around the body (I hope with perservative spells and form of transport which would be fun seeing how that played out) so he could attempt it at a later date. This in itself would make for some great roleplay as they crest the hill and are met by a passing group of lawmen/adventurers/ etc who are like "What the........?" My current group is bringing a gnoll leader head back for reward but for 2 days have simply left it in a sack in wagon and it has rained the last day. I've mentioned the smell however the cleric of Sarvas (Same player in above post) decided he wanted to interpret the dogma as he saw fit and didn't need to meditate or pray other than when wanting spells just found out that his recent 3rd level of cleric is not "connecting". So they are 3 days out of Scornubel with a rotting gnoll head amongst the loot and a cleric who needs to find a "true" follower to get him back on the path before he can gain access to any further spells above 1st. And a wizard who has no knowledge of such a spell as "Gentle repose" and actually thinks it's a play or song by a bard (best player I've ever had so far in terms of staying within his characters mindset and or limitations).
msatran 03-05-07, 07:59 PM	The thing is, you're already talking about punishing a player, which leads me to suspect your motives from the beginning. If you need to punish your players, you're playing with the wrong group of people. The truth of the matter is, I really don't think an elf should give a !@#$$! about what an orcish corpse feels if it's rest is disturbed. The entire history of elves is that Corellon struck out Gruumsh's eye. Who cares what the orcs think? They're dirty, smelly, barbaric rapists. If we need to speak with their dead before purging their crude kind from the world, then that's what we'll do. THAT's Elven thinking. What you said second was a far better way of handling the problem. Observe... PC: I cast Speak with Dead on the Orc Orc Fails will save, he is not a bright chappo. PC: Who is your leader? Orc: My leader am Trugnok. Him am killed before me. PC: Great. Who does Trugnok serve? Orc: Trugnok am serve man in shadows. PC: What does this man in shadows look like? Orc: Him am short. Have few weapons. Move in Darkness. Speak funny words, make orcs fall down. Wear something called Mask of Night. Invoke great goddess shar. Him am say if She win war of gods, it night all the time. No more happy dancing elves. Crush beneath big axe instead. Heh...heh...heh... If the PC's manage to get all the way to the guy at the end and cast speak with dead on him, too, they'll probably get better information if he fails a will save. What you did was prevent the pc from ATTEMPTING to gather information. That was the wrong way to handle that situation. The right way to handle that situation was to let him try. And if there were other PC's in the party, explain to them and have them act accordingly.
createvmind 03-05-07, 08:19 PM	Good idea but that last response was way to long for the spell, it's basically a sentence at BEST and way too much information, Cryptic at best. After all what bad guy tells his grunts all of that, might as well leave a map with directions to his operation and plans while he's at it, that last answer is pretty much spoon feeding the PC, the type of thing you do when they've MISSED the obvious hints for past 3 months of gaming, Ha. But we definitely on the same page in terms of thought process. After all he did ask what he looked like, and dead do not voluntarily give information not forced out of them or specifically asked.......well unless the person was killed and had a certain thing done to them while dying so that they BELIEVED thats what actually was the case. That was a great game by the way. :D But thats a whole other can of worms.
MarkusTay63 03-05-07, 08:38 PM	oh god.. i guess i failed a save somewhere... i lost that feat 5 months ago & woke up with the "married guy" templateTry remove curse, after 18 years I was finally able to break through the mind control and get me one. You may have to GATE in a lawyer though. ;) Shadow 'maters <snicker> :D visions of Attack of the Killer Tomatoes stuck in my head now. I think Cormyrian Farmer w/pitchfork #2 is a decendant of the mortal woman who bacame the first Mystra. She was none too bright, and was always wandering off where the Orcs could get to her.... ;) However, the family DID have a knack for being in the right place at the right time. "I never met-a-gaming I didn't like" - stop this at all costs, it is such bad form for an RPG. You should have changed the amulet when he put it on! You could of said "sorry, I must have been mistaken", end of story. Make it an amulet of Ogre Intelligence! When I first started playing in the 70's I started to do exactly that, until my GM showed me the error of my ways. Also, reward GOOD roleplaying, not bad. When handing out Exp at the end - Dave, you get 3900 EP; Sara, you get 4300 Exp; Brian, you get 4500 Exp; and .. ummm... Bob, you get 1 Exp for using knowledge NOT available to your character! He should learn pretty darn quick after a few sessions. :schemes:
johnkretzer 03-05-07, 08:43 PM	First: the spell speak with dead in no way or shape communicates with the spirit. If you don't believe me read it. What this means is that the spell soes not mess with the afterlife at all. You get you infomation based on what it knew in life. For example asking a corpse are you happy where you are to see if it wants to be brought back would get you a answear that the person thought he was going in life. Second: I find it funny when DMs cry metagaming because the PCs find a way to solve their mystery before the DM finds it is time to do so. A good DM will take into the account the use of any divination spells before he sets up his plot...why? Because the player has the right to use them. Asking a orc why he attacked the Mirthel Hall isn't metagaming it is being prident. Sure it might be a regular orc raid or it could be something else. Also what to you guys do if the capture a live orc to question? Tell make up something about elves do not take prisoners? Third: whenever players in my group cast Speak with Dead the entire group thinks up questions to ask so it is a group effort. And they enjoy it. Fourth: If I ran into someone who is casting beyond his abilities and he has no magical items to explain yeah I would look in to it. Sorry for being prudent but I won't just be led around trhe nose because a soucebook said this should be a secret. It is one of the worst plots there is because it isn't very secretive. Now you guys suggest we railroad players in keeping it a secret? Sure why not mix bad writting with bad DMing. Finding infomation and researching thing is not metagaming or anything of the sort. Hell no one said that the corpse would say," I cast my spells from the shadow weave" but they should get enough of a lead to be able to track it down....especialy with the fact that the church of Mystra has the infomation...in my game anytime you are a wizard who visits a church of Mystra you get the Rend Shadow Weave spell for free along with ten castings...They even will accept you casting the spell as payment for services.
Alediran 03-05-07, 09:07 PM	If the cleric would have been a human and a follower of a god from the Faerűnian Pântheon I'll have done the "Me boss chief grishnak". Elves are different on that. Here is a fragment of Evermeet: Island of the Elves "Amlaruil took a deep breath and prepared to do what was anathema to any elf: interfere with the afterlife of another." Chapter 20 Windows on the World The only reason she did it was because she had the feeling (like when Seiveril resurrected Fflar in the first book of The Last Mythal trilogy) that she had to do it, even if it was against the belives of elves. That was a supernatural nudge from the Seldarine, because there was a plot to kill Zhaor, the one chosen by the Seldarine to be the first King and the hand that delivered Amlauril as Queen of Elves, he couldn't die that day, he was needed. What my player attempted wasn't for something even remotely as important as that. He did it with no regard for the lore, even after I told him many times to study what it means to be an elf.
createvmind 03-05-07, 09:27 PM	Try remove curse, after 18 years I was finally able to break through the mind control and get me one. You may have to GATE in a lawyer though. ;) Shadow 'maters <snicker> :D visions of Attack of the Killer Tomatoes stuck in my head now. I think Cormyrian Farmer w/pitchfork #2 is a decendant of the mortal woman who bacame the first Mystra. She was none too bright, and was always wandering off where the Orcs could get to her.... ;) However, the family DID have a knack for being in the right place at the right time. "I never met-a-gaming I didn't like" - stop this at all costs, it is such bad form for an RPG. You should have changed the amulet when he put it on! You could of said "sorry, I must have been mistaken", end of story. Make it an amulet of Ogre Intelligence! When I first started playing in the 70's I started to do exactly that, until my GM showed me the error of my ways. Also, reward GOOD roleplaying, not bad. When handing out Exp at the end - Dave, you get 3900 EP; Sara, you get 4300 Exp; Brian, you get 4500 Exp; and .. ummm... Bob, you get 1 Exp for using knowledge NOT available to your character! He should learn pretty darn quick after a few sessions. :schemes: I definitely dole out xp for great roleplaying, 3 players are currently 2-2 levels ahead of the others partly due to their roleplaying and attending every game:D . And as a good and honest DM I don't wing things, I rolled the loot prior to the encounter pathway which they came upon 2 days later, just becuase I blurted it out I won't change it to something else or curse it or that reason. He recieved a bit less xp than he would have had he not done that and my sleight of hand is excellent, I am sure he will think he's heading me off at the pass later and miss what I'm really up too game-wise. I told him for past 2 months every friday session that he needed to roleplay his devotion to Sarvas as a cleric and look where he's at now cause of choosing not too. I am honest with my players and ask only they enjoy the game for the right reasons not simply to play out personal quirks and issues, he's the person I've known the longest out of the 8 players and gives me the hardest time but eventually gets with the program. Dysfunctional relationship when I'm Dming, perfect mesh when we are both playing in the game regardless of who's Dming. Doh, that would actually be a form of metagaming come to think of it since I can bet the mortage on what his character will due in most given situations. Shame on me.
johnkretzer 03-05-07, 10:28 PM	If the cleric would have been a human and a follower of a god from the Faerűnian Pântheon I'll have done the "Me boss chief grishnak". Elves are different on that. Here is a fragment of Evermeet: Island of the Elves "Amlaruil took a deep breath and prepared to do what was anathema to any elf: interfere with the afterlife of another." Chapter 20 Windows on the World The only reason she did it was because she had the feeling (like when Seiveril resurrected Fflar in the first book of The Last Mythal trilogy) that she had to do it, even if it was against the belives of elves. That was a supernatural nudge from the Seldarine, because there was a plot to kill Zhaor, the one chosen by the Seldarine to be the first King and the hand that delivered Amlauril as Queen of Elves, he couldn't die that day, he was needed. What my player attempted wasn't for something even remotely as important as that. He did it with no regard for the lore, even after I told him many times to study what it means to be an elf. That is nice....but what has Speak with Dead anything to do with messing with the after-life?
GothicDan 03-05-07, 10:31 PM	As has been pointed out, Speak with Dead is GRAY NECROMANCY. That means it has NOTHING to do with the actual soul of the departed - it doesn't mess with the afterlife, people.
Xavier_of_Cormyr 03-05-07, 10:32 PM	Xavier: I fail to see how figuring out how someone cast a really powerful necromancy spell at you despite the fact that they more than likely shouldn't have the ability to do so is metagaming. Those feats make casters of certain spell types WAY more powerful in their chosen area, and a simple spellcraft check made while the guy is casting will tell you that something is different. Read the way skills work. If the players say "What the hell? That shouldn't happen! Let's cast Speak With Dead on him and figure out how he did that!" Then that's what happens. That's called ROLEPLAYING. I'm sorry you've confused it with metagaming, but you forget that an INT of 16 is effectively an IQ of 160. That's the starting INT for an elite array wizard. Now let's add about 7 levels to that elite array wizard, and make him level 8. Now his INT is 18. He probably has a headband of intellect +2, so his INT is 20. Now his IQ is 200. I'm sorry. He's gonna suspect something's up, Xavier. The DM is required to give players the benefit of the points they paid in. You're asking people to break the fourth wall and metagame in the other direction, by the way, by collectively assuming that people don't know something that any 5th level party can discover. And 5th level adventurers in the Realms are NOT mighty. This is the problem with your argument. If Speak with Dead was an 8th level spell, I'd be in complete and total agreement with you. But it isn't. You're using arbitrary declarations that don't make any sense in the first place when simple common sense will tell you this. The law of averages says that SOMEONE out there will do it, and HAS done it already, or these feats and spells like Rend Shadow Weave wouldn't exist. Plus, the knowledge has to exist somewhere, as many of the other wise people on this board pointed out, or NO ONE CAN LEARN THESE FEATS. I run a world with training rules, so someone has to be able to TEACH them to you. Though I do find it kind of funny to hear Cormyrian Farmer With Pitchfork #2 discussing the Shadow Weave. Farmer 1: Yeah, Mystra's a real powerful goddess, all right. There's a little bit o' magic in everything, even these tomatoes. Farmer 2: Well, Ah done heard about this thing that the Lady 'o Night's doin' called the Shadow Weave. Them Shar Worshippers tryin to put a little bit of Shadow into your tomatoes... Farmer 1: Bane's Black !@#$$!@@! Ah KNEW something was wrong with my crop this year! Your prior post, as well as this one, throw's around a lot of numbers and rules. I simply mean this: close the rulebooks, forget the crunch, and play it out. The setting is so much more interesting if you don't rip it apart. I'm not attacking you or your gaming style, I just don't understand why people turn into Mr. Spock when someone asks them to just nuture a plotline for the sake of a good story. :bored:
GothicDan 03-05-07, 10:34 PM	Xavier of Cormyr... Are you even reading Msatran's posts? People will NOT act stupid, in game or out of game, and forget everything they know (trained as a wizard OR as a player) to accept a BAD story. No one's metagaming or being overly methodical. It's called roleplaying your character WELL. A Wizard with a 20 in Intelligence WILL BE ROLEPLAYED DIFFERENTLY than a Barbarian with a 10. He will notice things; he will puzzle out things; he will make decisions which are highly pragmatic and often logical when need be.
MarkusTay63 03-05-07, 10:40 PM	As has been pointed out, Speak with Dead is GRAY NECROMANCY...Which of course is NOT the same as Grey's Anatomy, although I understand Necromancers do reference that tome quite a bit. ;) You know what? Everyone's gonna play the game they want, so if you want to ignore ALL the inconsistencies of a 'not-so-secret' secret, then by all means run with it. For me personally, I think people are gonna start asking A LOT of questions when they notice Tilverton is gone.... :rolleyes:
Xavier_of_Cormyr 03-05-07, 10:45 PM	Xavier of Cormyr... Are you even reading Msatran's posts? People will NOT act stupid, in game or out of game, and forget everything they know (trained as a wizard OR as a player) to accept a BAD story. No one's metagaming or being overly methodical. It's called roleplaying your character WELL. A Wizard with a 20 in Intelligence WILL BE ROLEPLAYED DIFFERENTLY than a Barbarian with a 10. He will notice things; he will puzzle out things; he will make decisions which are highly pragmatic and often logical when need be. Ok then, just throw it at me: in your campaign(s), how well known is the shadow weave (if you even use it) No rules, no stats, just a role playing breakdown... And as far as it being a bad storyline, many people in here have made it clear that you feel this way. I'm not fighting a losing battle by trying to argue with you (or god forbid change your minds)... I'm just posing the counterpoint that the issue isn't as cut & dry as it's being made out to be....
johnkretzer 03-06-07, 01:37 AM	Ok then, just throw it at me: in your campaign(s), how well known is the shadow weave (if you even use it) No rules, no stats, just a role playing breakdown... And as far as it being a bad storyline, many people in here have made it clear that you feel this way. I'm not fighting a losing battle by trying to argue with you (or god forbid change your minds)... I'm just posing the counterpoint that the issue isn't as cut & dry as it's being made out to be.... No rules?, No stats? just RPing? Ok while since there is a neccessary to use the rules(knowledge Arcana, spellcraft, divination magic) to get the info to RP putting it together and people tend to RP stats out? So how is that a fair question? But here it is at a RP wise(though with rules and such because really I don't know of any D&D game that has actualy rules of magic to them for the player to study so he can have this onfomation by just studying it)...but anyway here we go. Wizard fights evil wizard of shar with the shadow weave feats. Wizards notice that the evil wizard spells of necromancy, illusion, and enchantment are powerful and other spells are weak...but he doesn't seem to have a barred school. After the battle the wizard looks into how he did this because well wizards are driven to know things about magic. He studies the magic items...nothing there....he looks in the spell book and doesn't see anything that would explain it but notice that there is a discrepancy in how powerful he was casting but there weren't spells equal to. IE he was casting spells like a 11th level caster but there weren't any 6th level spells in the spell book. So he must have had some sort of special training...but that doesn't makes sense because while Enchantment and Illusion are similar Necromancy is completely different from those two(Before you could choose you barred schools if you were a Necromancer I believe you were barred from Enchantment and Illusion). He also realizes that the magic items are difdferent after studying them(again it is mechanics but SW items have a effect on those who use the weave) So this wizard has a quandry. Like most people who study something to the extent wizards do(or perhaps just this wizard) he continue to research on it. He asks the cleric in the party(or maybe a cleric of Mystra) to cast speak with dead on the corpse. Now he propably won't get a straight answear here but he will get a answear that will lead him down the correct path or give him a answear. but he will continue his research and eventualy (probably though the churches get the correct answear. Now how is this metagaming? Is it because a player decides he would rather figure this out before you want to let him? This the problem with the Shadow Weave is that it is to obvious and easy to discover. If Shar had half a brain(which she does, but unfortuanly the writters don't) it would function identicle to the weave(or even just suppress the bonuses). Don't allow people make items(because that is direct evidence), etc. If you want to keep something like this a secret you have to keep it low profile. Sure I used the shadow weave in my FR campaign just not as written. I used it to fix things that happened in the pantheon that I didn't like. Also completely removed Shar's involment in it. It actualy still exists oddly enough...
miscellany 03-06-07, 02:51 AM	As has been pointed out, Speak with Dead is GRAY NECROMANCY. That means it has NOTHING to do with the actual soul of the departed - it doesn't mess with the afterlife, people.I can't find GRAY NECROMANCY in the rulebooks....help? :confused:
createvmind 03-06-07, 08:30 AM	No rules?, No stats? just RPing? Ok while since there is a neccessary to use the rules(knowledge Arcana, spellcraft, divination magic) to get the info to RP putting it together and people tend to RP stats out? So how is that a fair question? But here it is at a RP wise(though with rules and such because really I don't know of any D&D game that has actualy rules of magic to them for the player to study so he can have this onfomation by just studying it)...but anyway here we go. Wizard fights evil wizard of shar with the shadow weave feats. Wizards notice that the evil wizard spells of necromancy, illusion, and enchantment are powerful and other spells are weak...but he doesn't seem to have a barred school. After the battle the wizard looks into how he did this because well wizards are driven to know things about magic. He studies the magic items...nothing there....he looks in the spell book and doesn't see anything that would explain it but notice that there is a discrepancy in how powerful he was casting but there weren't spells equal to. IE he was casting spells like a 11th level caster but there weren't any 6th level spells in the spell book. So he must have had some sort of special training...but that doesn't makes sense because while Enchantment and Illusion are similar Necromancy is completely different from those two(Before you could choose you barred schools if you were a Necromancer I believe you were barred from Enchantment and Illusion). He also realizes that the magic items are difdferent after studying them(again it is mechanics but SW items have a effect on those who use the weave) So this wizard has a quandry. Like most people who study something to the extent wizards do(or perhaps just this wizard) he continue to research on it. He asks the cleric in the party(or maybe a cleric of Mystra) to cast speak with dead on the corpse. Now he propably won't get a straight answear here but he will get a answear that will lead him down the correct path or give him a answear. but he will continue his research and eventualy (probably though the churches get the correct answear. Now how is this metagaming? Is it because a player decides he would rather figure this out before you want to let him? This the problem with the Shadow Weave is that it is to obvious and easy to discover. If Shar had half a brain(which she does, but unfortuanly the writters don't) it would function identicle to the weave(or even just suppress the bonuses). Don't allow people make items(because that is direct evidence), etc. If you want to keep something like this a secret you have to keep it low profile. Sure I used the shadow weave in my FR campaign just not as written. I used it to fix things that happened in the pantheon that I didn't like. Also completely removed Shar's involment in it. It actualy still exists oddly enough... We've already concluded what is possible if spellbook and SW items are present, we were speaking on that not being the case. I 'think' you missing Xavier's whole point and it seems there may be a difficulty in you seperating player knowledge game mechanics from your characters thinking. And again I am staying within the intial premise of how the topic began, combating a "shadow weave" caster, no shadow weave items or spell book recovered thus prompting the need for a speak with dead. BTW if you did use your version with spellbook recovered, thats a full day of you trying to learn 1 spell in the book before you even begin to formulate there may be something up, which would require you comparing several spells within that book, thus several days at minimum. Biggest mistake first off, using Shadow weave magic does not make you a follower of Shar just like using weave magic doesn't mean you serve Mystra. So that to me represents the first metagame OOG assumption being applied because it would seem only "logical" to apply to character though how you come by the knowledge of enemy HAVING shadow feats is again another OOC topic. Ok spell battle, you see enemy cast spell and you likely realize what spell it is probably 70% of the time, that leaves 30% of his spells the character fails to figure out (not talking about obvious spells like magic missle.) Again metamagic feats and other feats as well as magic items will create a zillion variations with what his spells produce thus in no way leading to shadow weave conclusion. Spellcraft reveals nothing about spell level whether it be in watching caster cast or the "character" shruging off the spells effect and getting a chance to determine what the spell was 1 try only. This doesn't tell you the level of the spell, if you resist a spell you resist it, the character doesn't go "I need to roll a Fort 18 to avoid this effect because the DM said 'Make a Fort save , you have to beat a 18. So that must mean this guy is probably X level since that was likely a Flesh to Stone spell. Wait a minute now he just tried to hit me with a Finger of Death spell, (made spellcraft) thats like a 7th lvl spell but I made X Fort save but took 3d6 plus X caster lvl damage? What level is this guy?" In game terms the DM says "You feel your body begin to grow rigid, your hands turn slightly grayish and stone hard for a brief second before you shrug the effect off." My point being we the player would go through a myriad of conclusions from the DM winging it to possibly making a mistake to trying to figure out from dice being rolled and damaged calculated the level of our opponent. Feats, metamagic feats, possible stat buffs, etc etc etc....... Which is all well and good and human nature but coming to such off the paths conclusions such as Shadow weave thus prompting your CHaracter to go, "Hey cleric, can you speak with this guys body/essence/spirit/ (whichever term you use) because I don't think he should have been able to do XYZ so well." Also how can you determine what school enemy caster is barred or not barred from simply from a spell battle, he prepared what he prepared. The fight could last 4 rounds or 14 rounds, that somehow tells you what schools the enemy caster has access too and which are which levels? How would you know the difference between a specialist and a shadow weave user, same principal so there's no way you can't be metagaming if you naturally try to come to this conclusion based on scenario presented. Because someone uses 3 magic missles because they want to make sure they deal damage doesn't automatically make them an Evoker. And it's just for these very reasons that Shadow weave users DON'T stand out in Fearun, too many variations, specialist, cross classed, item enhancing casters roam the world for someone to go, "Hey this is like 17th caster we fought, and although I've never even heard of a Shadow weave I all of a sudden think this guy here is using shadow weave magic." They're not walking around with signs they say Shadow anything or dripping shadow essence to make it obvious. So a player with no prior clue of a shadow weave existing defeats another caster and tries simply due to exchange of spells tries come to this conclusion enough to merit a speak with dead is more than likely metagamer. I had a player who bought the PGtF and immediately wanted to apply this knowledge to his wizard in regards to Shadow weave, I told him to name all the Zulkirs in Thay. He named Szass Tam of course and that was it, I then pointed out if he the player with the scource books didn't know that "PRINTED' information how would his character suddenly know or have urge to learn about a hidden weave. But this is really pointless if you really think about it because the only way one can metagame is if the DM allows or lets information slip out thus prompting the players to suddenly go "Hmmmmmmmmmmmm."
Alediran 03-06-07, 08:33 AM	I can't find GRAY NECROMANCY in the rulebooks....help? :confused: That was a division of the different spells of necromancy in 2nd edition. GD: I know that Speak With Dead is a grey necromancy. The important things is that my player didn't even bother to roleplay it's use, as a elf he would have been strongly opposed to disturb (even if it isn't technically a disturbance of the dead's spirit) a dead sentient being, his cleric isn't a High Priest of Aerdie that knows the truth about spells like Speak With Dead, he is just a mid level cleric who is barely begining to understand his goddess. He isn't smart enough to think about what his spells truly do.
createvmind 03-06-07, 08:39 AM	AS written in novels many times, the caster believes he is speaking with the dead, not some imprint of former spiritual essence. Again overlaying game system and mechanics onto a what is supposed to be living being surviving in a harsh world. If they wrote novels as analytical as some of you describe roleplaying within the setting, there would be no Faerun to play.:(
Lord Karsus 03-06-07, 09:26 AM	I can't find GRAY NECROMANCY in the rulebooks....help? :confused: -More or less, Gray Necromancy is necromancy that isn't inherently evil. Some Necromancy spells are inherently evil, like Trap the Soul. Others, like Speak with Dead are not.
Stigger 03-06-07, 09:49 AM	Hmmm... I don't think of it as being analytical so much as understanding your own capabilities and not getting caught up in being over interpretive... Sure, perhaps the books do treat the speak with dead spell as 'disturbing the spirit', but if you open up a rulebook, they're obviously wrong about that. So what to do? You can presume that the books were taking creative license for the purpose of a story and that's one way of looking at it, or you can presume that they were wrong and that a person channeling power from their god would understand the ramifications of said power and what it actually did or didn't do... Personally, I'm completely in favor of a somewhat analytical approach to it. I could see the point of view that their knowledge of spells is incomplete and lacking true depth... but I'm utterly in disagreement about it. Considering how many spells I can go through as a cleric in a single day, you'd think that after a few years of this, I'd at least have a basic understanding of how my magic worked... what it will and won't do, and how... because that's information that may possibly mean the difference between me living and dying one day... particularly when I get to the point that I'm casting 3rd level spells. If you want to treat it as a mysterious unknowable force that the mortal mind can't comprehend, go for it, that's your business, but from my point of view, if information shows up in the PHB in the description of a spell, then the player has a right (and responsibility really) to know it from the very start. To me, it would seem that you're trying to take away knowledge that they player would presumably already have if its in a source that's really the only thing they have to fall call upon.
Alediran 03-06-07, 10:00 AM	They found information about what is going on, in the form of a clerical symbol wich they had to investigate. What I did was more a punish for his lack of roleplay and knowledge about being an elf.
createvmind 03-06-07, 01:06 PM	I agree, what is in the players understanding however is not supposed to be his CHARACTERS mindset, the player thinks in terms of BAB Saving throws, square movements, +'s and -'s while the character should be thinking. "My companion is sorely pressed, Tymora be with me on this shot and strike my foe and not my friend." While the PLayer knows he's having his character fire into melee and the character doesn't possess the precise shot feat and thus he's at -4 plus whatever other factors may be in effect. This is getting within character to me and what ROLEPLAYING is about. I give you a perfect example of just this past friday, the Bard acquired a level and took subsonic feat, previously she had sung out loud since questing with current comrades, 3 months in faerun time. They are attacked at night and OOC she tells me " I cast swift spell and then begin singing DM and move here." I state to the other players who have no clue of her newest feat that they don't hear anything at all but I'm adding the bonuses to their attack and damage as they come up. After 3 rounds I say "Wow, as far as all of you are concerned XX is just standing there while you guys are fighting, no one takes note of this? One says, "Anna said to you she was singing to you and since we don't hear it we assume she took the new feat so as to do it silently like OOG she was mentioning she might do." I said, "Thats fine and all however your characters have no idea of this and are used to her singing and feeling more inspired in combat and none of you played it out." Anna the player pouting, "Yeah I wanted to see your reactions when you didn't see me do anything the next time we fought something." When I use stickys which can be annoying with 8 players then they play totally differently as they are much more into keeping in the "moment".
msatran 03-06-07, 02:09 PM	Now you're insulting my intelligence. This has NOTHING TO DO WITH PLAYER OR CHARACTER. This has EVERYTHING to do with the DUNGEON MASTER. If a player puts points into his intelligence, he is entitled to have his character be SMART! It's his SHTICK! If a Fighter puts his points into strength and buys lots of magic items to make himself good in combat, GREAT! That's his SHTICK! Should they be roleplaying? ABSOLUTELY. But the way you make it sound, there isn't a lick of roleplaying involved because YOU ARE TELLING PEOPLE HOW TO ROLEPLAY THEIR CHARACTERS! The DM is responsible for allowing the characters to use their abilities and creates an environment where they can roleplay. How they choose to roleplay, while it may bother him (And yes, my players sometimes DO bother me when they gloss over things I think they should pay more attention to, or don't notice when another PC does something new and cool they just learned), is NOT his job to judge. People do things differently. But you seem to be inclined to use force towards your players in order to get them to roleplay. Here's a hint for you. It's the oldest hint in the world. Show, don't tell. Let me explain to you what I'm talking about. After three rounds, you ask them "No one takes note of this?" One might think that in combat, if some roly poly orc was swinging a sword at me, I might be a little more concerned with whether or not he's trying to kill me than if my party's bard is musically apt. Instead, say "Anna's power seems to fill you, but no words come from her mouth as they usually do..." Or, wait until after the combat is OVER before you challenge them. Some people aren't big fans of chattiness while someone's trying to rip their head off.
createvmind 03-06-07, 02:46 PM	Ok, I'm not speaking about you in anyway so I don't know how I'm insulting your intelligence. And I made an observation to players and at no point told anyone to do anything merely pointed it out to them something was "odd". Didn't force coerce or punish anyone for missing anything, I find it strange that instead of responding to what I write AS WRITTEN you 'seem' to be responding how YOU are taking it and then somehow making it personal to you. At no point have I said anyone's method is wrong, or whatever slant you're coming from and even pointed out my own flub, the intial topic AGAIN was on how the the situation described probably pages back now, the wizard would be able to come up with Shadow weave even if he did the speak with dead option. Plain in simple, in THAT encounter he wouldn't unless DM is not stepping up and would require continued investigation to have a chance at gleaning such knowledge. To try and come to that conclusion based on what was given WITHIN the timeframe of the encounter (right after it occured) would be in my eyes metagaming. That's my assessment of the scenario, not concerned with who pumped what STAT, I'm talking about the scenario in question. That's it for me on this topic. Incredible....................
Xavier_of_Cormyr 03-06-07, 03:47 PM	see what happens when we don't play nice... everyone knock it off or i'll turn this thread around and take away your dice... :waits:
GothicDan 03-06-07, 04:43 PM	Create, the fact that you're even insinuating that some of us cannot separate in game from out of game is insulting. Think about who you're talking to; I, at least, am one of the people that HATE using mechanics for ANY sort of social interplay. I've played entire games without rolling a single die, and have purposefully caused my characters to die to avoid metagaming. Just face it: the Shadow Weave should be well known to almost all of Faerun by now. The city of Shade, Tilverton, the societies formed against the Weave, Elminster and the Simbul encountering Shadow Weave users on multiple occasions, the Chosen encountering the Shadow Mythallar and Prince Telamont in Shade itself, the fact that the Rend Shadow Weave spell exists (something that, from a roleplaying PoV, implies a LOT of research and experimentation and knowledge about the Shadow Weave).... Shar would be an idiot to claim it's a secret any more.
createvmind 03-06-07, 05:19 PM	Whatever you say, and attempting to use "something Seems" as an excuse to merit your choice of words is fine with me. I don't have to THINK about anything in regards to anyone in here other than the topic of forgotten realms which this forum is about and my post has stayed within the premise of my assessment of how things work within the realms. I again find it amazing that somehow you choose to take this personally as if I was even responding to your post in question which I wasn't. The OP I could understand possibly taking offense but where do you come from with "insinuating" and applying yourself to again a specific scenario someone else mentioned. My viewpoint is based on the scource book and novels but tempered with conversation in candlekeep and in person with Ed Greenwood as I fashion my game mostly with his extra lore/insight not provided by rule books. In your game things run however you say they run, no arguement from me, in my game things run as I determine them or as I gain better understanding of the realms based on Candlekeep and scource books and the 100+ novels I have of the realms. That's just me and how I apply liberally what is mechanically written in many of these books both scouce and novel. You have stated numerous times over the years having not read many faerun novels which often depict mechanics being applied. Thus there is no point in us continuing the debate, you stand by your pro-older editions and I stand with adapting to the game regardless of whether I like all the changes or not. Nothing for you to be insulted about as nothing remotely applies to you and I left the Speak with Dead statement alone after the first time you mentioned it. If you decide you wish to apply something personally to you, thats not my concern, the comment I made to your choice of method in regards to the spell was quite clear after which I returned to the actual scenario as a whole. There is no reward, or competition or job offer to be had in here so I don't understand the "point" in trying to make things personal about a setting none of us had anything to do with creating.
BrennonGoldeye 03-06-07, 05:30 PM	I've played entire games without rolling a single die, and have purposefully caused my characters to die to avoid metagaming. No offence Dan, but that isn't AD&D. That storytime with Dan.;)
GothicDan 03-06-07, 05:33 PM	That's right! Storytime with Dan! Oh, if only I could have used my vast fiendish lore... My poor Wizard wouldn't have cast that blasted fireball... As to novels and the Shadow Weave... Oddly enough, I HAVE happened to have read a good deal of the novels dealing with the Shadow Weave, including the Shadow Stone, Return of the Archwizards, and Elminster in Hell. They're largely where I'm drawing my conclusions from. Now, I'll go back to my Faerun, which has no silly Cyric, Time of Troubles, Shadow Weave, etc. in it. If I'm pro older editions, I'm only that way because I actually like them better. ;)
Stigger 03-06-07, 06:49 PM	You know, I never got the impression that novels applied much in the way of mechanics at all for some reason. Seemed to me that they usually took great liberties with them for the sake of a story more often than not... not that there's anything wrong with that per se, but it's the one source I would never turn to for a perspective on 'mechanics in action'. Ah well, to each their own.
MarkusTay63 03-06-07, 08:09 PM	A novel is just a story, nothing more, nothing less, and people should take it as such. Think of it this way - what we read is is how the average faerűnian would interpret what THEY see. It is almost like a story appearing in the Waterdeep gazzette, so that the 'facts' are really just a 3rd or 4th hand re-telling. In this way, we can attribute all inconsistancies (rules) up to bad reporting. When mechanically Elminster uses his LAST memorized Fireball and uses a Lightning Bolt spell instead, an observer reports "after having fired off a volley of fireballs, Elminster then brilliantly switched strategies and called forth lightning to blast his foes!" See? Without the mechanics visible, everything is just a matter of interpretation. :detect:
BrennonGoldeye 03-06-07, 10:12 PM	Mechanics are never visible, but always there. There and charging you 35$ an hour!!!!!.....Muhahahah!!!:evillaugh
miscellany 03-06-07, 10:15 PM	Just face it: the Shadow Weave should be well known to almost all of Faerun by now. The city of Shade, Tilverton, the societies formed against the Weave, Elminster and the Simbul encountering Shadow Weave users on multiple occasions, the Chosen encountering the Shadow Mythallar and Prince Telamont in Shade itself, the fact that the Rend Shadow Weave spell exists (something that, from a roleplaying PoV, implies a LOT of research and experimentation and knowledge about the Shadow Weave).... The existence of Shade gives no evidence a Shadow Weave exists. Tilverton's destruction: same. Elminster and the Simbul do not run advertising campaigns to share their secrets, to my knowledge; nor do the Chosen. It's interesting you'd even point to a game mechanic (Rend Shadow Weave) to prove anything. That said, what sources can you cite as to where the spell came from? Who made it? Was it divinely inspired? You're basing quite a bit on the spell's existence, without proving the assumptions you need to make in order for your claim to be believable. It's 99% likely the spell was written in to the setting to give players a counter against Shadow Weave users (where said players learn of the spell by reading a game book) and 1% likely it was written in to 'prove' many, many mages and non-mages know about the Shadow Weave and are working to find means to counter it. However if you can find the writer/editor who wrote it in to the setting and ask them...well maybe the opposite is true. In general I think the knowledge that Shadow Magic being used is on the rise, but I doubt there are more than a handful or two of individuals that truly know what the power they are drawing upon really is and what it constitutes. But g'head and ask Ed; let him do your thinking. :)
BrennonGoldeye 03-06-07, 10:20 PM	Oh my.....
GothicDan 03-06-07, 10:22 PM	I'm sorry. Did the poster Miscellany say something interesting, or was it the same anti-Whatever-I'm-Saying trite? ;)
BrennonGoldeye 03-06-07, 10:24 PM	Oh, how fun....
Alac Luin 03-06-07, 10:38 PM	-More or less, Gray Necromancy is necromancy that isn't inherently evil. Some Necromancy spells are inherently evil, like Trap the Soul. Others, like Speak with Dead are not. A note here, in 2ed Cure spells and the like were Necromancy spells, these were the "White Necromancy" spells.
miscellany 03-06-07, 11:02 PM	I'm sorry. Did the poster Miscellany say something interesting, or was it the same anti-Whatever-I'm-Saying trite? ;) Yeah, and as usual I was right. But hey at least you get to dodge the facts without having to answer to them, hey? It's OK kiddo, you'll get the better of us one day (when you come around to our way of thinking, that is). I'd still like to learn the truth behind the Rend Shadow Weave spell if you can find it, no matter what that truth might be. :P
Xavier_of_Cormyr 03-06-07, 11:36 PM	I'm sorry. Did the poster Miscellany say something interesting, or was it the same anti-Whatever-I'm-Saying trite? ;) :doh: D'OH.. you gone done it now Dan-O :hides:
johnkretzer 03-06-07, 11:39 PM	We've already concluded what is possible if spellbook and SW items are present, we were speaking on that not being the case. I 'think' you missing Xavier's whole point and it seems there may be a difficulty in you seperating player knowledge game mechanics from your characters thinking. And again I am staying within the intial premise of how the topic began, combating a "shadow weave" caster, no shadow weave items or spell book recovered thus prompting the need for a speak with dead. BTW if you did use your version with spellbook recovered, thats a full day of you trying to learn 1 spell in the book before you even begin to formulate there may be something up, which would require you comparing several spells within that book, thus several days at minimum. Biggest mistake first off, using Shadow weave magic does not make you a follower of Shar just like using weave magic doesn't mean you serve Mystra. So that to me represents the first metagame OOG assumption being applied because it would seem only "logical" to apply to character though how you come by the knowledge of enemy HAVING shadow feats is again another OOC topic. Ok spell battle, you see enemy cast spell and you likely realize what spell it is probably 70% of the time, that leaves 30% of his spells the character fails to figure out (not talking about obvious spells like magic missle.) Again metamagic feats and other feats as well as magic items will create a zillion variations with what his spells produce thus in no way leading to shadow weave conclusion. Spellcraft reveals nothing about spell level whether it be in watching caster cast or the "character" shruging off the spells effect and getting a chance to determine what the spell was 1 try only. This doesn't tell you the level of the spell, if you resist a spell you resist it, the character doesn't go "I need to roll a Fort 18 to avoid this effect because the DM said 'Make a Fort save , you have to beat a 18. So that must mean this guy is probably X level since that was likely a Flesh to Stone spell. Wait a minute now he just tried to hit me with a Finger of Death spell, (made spellcraft) thats like a 7th lvl spell but I made X Fort save but took 3d6 plus X caster lvl damage? What level is this guy?" In game terms the DM says "You feel your body begin to grow rigid, your hands turn slightly grayish and stone hard for a brief second before you shrug the effect off." My point being we the player would go through a myriad of conclusions from the DM winging it to possibly making a mistake to trying to figure out from dice being rolled and damaged calculated the level of our opponent. Feats, metamagic feats, possible stat buffs, etc etc etc....... Which is all well and good and human nature but coming to such off the paths conclusions such as Shadow weave thus prompting your CHaracter to go, "Hey cleric, can you speak with this guys body/essence/spirit/ (whichever term you use) because I don't think he should have been able to do XYZ so well." Also how can you determine what school enemy caster is barred or not barred from simply from a spell battle, he prepared what he prepared. The fight could last 4 rounds or 14 rounds, that somehow tells you what schools the enemy caster has access too and which are which levels? How would you know the difference between a specialist and a shadow weave user, same principal so there's no way you can't be metagaming if you naturally try to come to this conclusion based on scenario presented. Because someone uses 3 magic missles because they want to make sure they deal damage doesn't automatically make them an Evoker. And it's just for these very reasons that Shadow weave users DON'T stand out in Fearun, too many variations, specialist, cross classed, item enhancing casters roam the world for someone to go, "Hey this is like 17th caster we fought, and although I've never even heard of a Shadow weave I all of a sudden think this guy here is using shadow weave magic." They're not walking around with signs they say Shadow anything or dripping shadow essence to make it obvious. So a player with no prior clue of a shadow weave existing defeats another caster and tries simply due to exchange of spells tries come to this conclusion enough to merit a speak with dead is more than likely metagamer. I had a player who bought the PGtF and immediately wanted to apply this knowledge to his wizard in regards to Shadow weave, I told him to name all the Zulkirs in Thay. He named Szass Tam of course and that was it, I then pointed out if he the player with the scource books didn't know that "PRINTED' information how would his character suddenly know or have urge to learn about a hidden weave. But this is really pointless if you really think about it because the only way one can metagame is if the DM allows or lets information slip out thus prompting the players to suddenly go "Hmmmmmmmmmmmm." First it it take 1 day to copy a spell from one book to another and to learn it. To id a spell in a spellbook take alot shorter period(if you have read magic it is the speed you read at). Second, The wizards religion didn't even have anything to do with the wizard's reasearch into this. I thought you would say this...but read it again. Was it to gain knowledge of the shadow weave? No it was to gain knowledge. Third you are wrong with your percentage but even if you are right it was enought to get the wizard curious. Fourth...you are assuming this is that well thought out. All I am saying it would get me curious...thus lead to the investigation. Fifth you are right but that is why I said the step with the spellbook, the magic items, etc before the "hey cleric speek with dead" of course this step isn't even neccessary if he seeks info. at a temple of Mystra or Azuth. Because they do have this knowledge. Sixth:??? Where did I say from the school a caster is barred from during a spell battle? That was mentioned in studying the spell book a determining there is a spelll from alll the schools(this can be done on the first page with all thew cantrips) Seventh: I disagree as the player who went down this step didn't any OOG knowledge of the shadow weave... Well that is nice but his character would get a knowledge Arcane check to name all the Zulkiers in Thay. Isn't there a DC check to know about the Shadow Weave in the book? Also now that is metagaming on your part as the DM limiting a characters knowledge by the players knowledge. Sorry as I said it isn't that hard to figure out. You even said Magic items would allow it to be provable. That is pretty solid evidence right there. Which is why you the DM has to metagame to keep it a secret.
johnkretzer 03-06-07, 11:42 PM	AS written in novels many times, the caster believes he is speaking with the dead, not some imprint of former spiritual essence. Again overlaying game system and mechanics onto a what is supposed to be living being surviving in a harsh world. If they wrote novels as analytical as some of you describe roleplaying within the setting, there would be no Faerun to play.:( Yup those same novels have characters of level x beat bad guys at level x+10. Personaly I detest what the novels have done to elven culture. Also without the novels Faerun would be fun to play characters in.
johnkretzer 03-07-07, 12:01 AM	Yeah, and as usual I was right. But hey at least you get to dodge the facts without having to answer to them, hey? It's OK kiddo, you'll get the better of us one day (when you come around to our way of thinking, that is). I'd still like to learn the truth behind the Rend Shadow Weave spell if you can find it, no matter what that truth might be. :P Here is a idea instead having the souce book tells you...or a novel written by someone who is in love with his creation and ignores all critism of it, or even the Creator of The Realms Ed you decide how it works in your game. Even Ed has said you should make the Realms your own. The truth is whatever you want it to be.
MarkusTay63 03-07-07, 12:07 AM	The existence of Shade gives no evidence a Shadow Weave exists. Tilverton's destruction: same.To a point, yes. Anyone who with an Int of 10 or less will probably say "Tilverton's gone? Damn shame... let's go get something to eat" People with HIGHER IQ's will ask - "How'd that happen?" Then some will tell them about the appearance of Shade. Now a few (Int 11?) might be satisfied at this point, but most will say "A city appeared OUT OF NOWHERE?! What city?" and someone will tell them about Shade... about how it's called that because 'Shades' live there... and how it's ruled by a guy called 'Lord Shadow". Now, once again many folks (Int 12?) might be satisfied, and just shake their heads and wander off. The ones that are left will ask "What are Shades and who is Lord Shadow?'. Then someone (Church, Chosen, Mage, Priest, local costabulary, etc...) will explain to them that Lord Shadow is called that because he has "shadow magic", and the Shades use the same thing and "aren't quite human anymore". The next logical question in this progression is going to be "Shadow Magic? What the Hell is that?!". Most will not know much more then what was previously said, but if they ask the right people (and they will, because at this point we're talking about people with 13+ Int or roughly 28% of the population using a flat 3d6 roll) they will be told "Shadow Magic is accessable throught the Shadow Weave, a Weave that is somehow different then Mystra's". People WILL ask because Inquiring minds want to know, at least better then 1-in-4 anyway. You on the other hand would have just gone for something to eat. ;)
johnkretzer 03-07-07, 12:14 AM	That was a division of the different spells of necromancy in 2nd edition. GD: I know that Speak With Dead is a grey necromancy. The important things is that my player didn't even bother to roleplay it's use, as a elf he would have been strongly opposed to disturb (even if it isn't technically a disturbance of the dead's spirit) a dead sentient being, his cleric isn't a High Priest of Aerdie that knows the truth about spells like Speak With Dead, he is just a mid level cleric who is barely begining to understand his goddess. He isn't smart enough to think about what his spells truly do. Actualy as a cleric he would know that the spirit leaves the corpse and the spell access what is left of the brain for this infomation. To say he doesn't know what the spell does is silly. Also you had the punishment come from Aerdie who I think will know what the spell actualy does and wouldn't have problems with it. And lastly if he is a mid-level cleric who doesn't understand his goddess and doesn't think what his spells actualy does he shouldn't be a cleric. I have always ruled a caster know what his spells does if he casts it...otherwise you just get some very stupid things. That like saying he doesn't know how bless works...so if I interpert it as guidence from your ancestors(because some writtier who never played D&D say it does)then no Elf could cast it because it is messing with somebody afterlife. Also a Elf would completely cast a spell to bring back someone from the dead. Why? Because the spell allows a choice. Obvisously the writter either didn't understand how the spell works or was just trying to make it over dramatic.
MarkusTay63 03-07-07, 12:30 AM	It's also CANON that Elves interact with their dead ancestor's ALL the time. Some Elves become Baelnorn (undead), while certain other heroes return from Arvandor from time to time, so I doubt Elves have any compunction against utilizing even the spirit of a deceased person to find out information that could benefit the living. Elves do not like unintelligent Undead because they are a corruption of nature; their bodies should be rotting in the ground to provide nutrients for more life. Interaction with Intelligent undead is evident quite often, in the form of Spirits (ghosts), Liches, and even vampires. If I'm not mistaken, I could swear I even read about an Elven Mummy somewhere.... :confused:
Stigger 03-07-07, 04:54 AM	From Champions of Valor, entry on The Guardians of the Weave: Taken from page 83, History section: The Guardians of the Weave was founded in 1372 by Aluvauna Thornym, a black-haired adventuring mage from Waterdeep. Aluvauna was troubled by an encounter with a Zhent wizard whose magic was difficult to identify, resist, and counter. Her special sense of the Weave, coupled with a reseach into the wizard's spellbook and certain divinations, revealed his use of the Shadow Weave to her. Disgusted at this affront to Mystra's magic, she gathered several of her allies and told them of her concerns. They concurred that Faerun needed good-minded spellcasters to protect the source of pure magic, and the Guardians of the Weave was born. Aluvauna pulled a few strings with the church of Mystra and got an official church blessing for her endeavor. Within a month, a dozen more interested Mystran and Azuthan casters joined the group, hailing from as far away as Halruaa, and within a year representatives of Deneir, Isis, Savras, Selune, and the elf and gnome magic deities pedged solidarity with the guardians. Aluvauna found herself in charge of a network of activist mages spanning much of Faerun. Quickly adjusting to the position of leadership, she designated a lieutenant in each city served by a Guardian, trained her associates to recognize the signs of the Shadow Weave, and circulated magic to help them observe and report on dangerous spellcasters. Far more public than the Harpers, the Guardians are starting to earn a positive reputation among the common folk of Faerun. Taken from page 84, end of The Guardians Today section: The Guardians of the Weave has outposts (usually a lieutenants home) in Silverymoon, Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter, Arabel, Shadowdale, Selgaunt (Sembia), Darromar (Tethyr), Heliogabalus (Damara), Velprintalar (Aglarond), Mulsantir (Rasheman), Alaghon (Turmish), Cimbar (Chessenta), Skuld (Mulhorand), The Great Rift, and Halagard (Halruaa). Also from page 84, middle section of The Guardians' Foes: The Guardians hae standing orders to capture any solitary known practitioner of either evil magic or the Shadow Weave (and in larger cities Aluvauna has made sure her agents are legally able to do so). The Detect Shadow Weave User feat has these Prerequisites: Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks, Spellcraft 5 ranks The Overcome Shadow Weave feat has these Prerequisites: Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks, Spellcraft 5 ranks, spellcaster who uses the Weave Nothing in the Rend Shadow Weave spell's description mentions it as being rare, unique to the Guardians, or anything else that would indicate it's a relatively uncommon spell that should only be in certain people's hands. Given all that information, I think it's probably a safe assumption that the Shadow Weave is fairly widely known of by now, that commoners in at least some areas could have a basic grasp that there is such a thing as the Shadow Weave (though almost certainly not details beyond that), that the governments of several nations and city-states are well aware of the Shadow Weave and the threat it represents to them and their citizens, the same being true of more than just a few churches, and that this information is spread out over a vast area of Faerun... So... yeah.
Alac Luin 03-07-07, 10:48 AM	The Detect Shadow Weave User feat has these Prerequisites: Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks, Spellcraft 5 ranks The Overcome Shadow Weave feat has these Prerequisites: Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks, Spellcraft 5 ranks, spellcaster who uses the Weave Nothing in the Rend Shadow Weave spell's description mentions it as being rare, unique to the Guardians, or anything else that would indicate it's a relatively uncommon spell that should only be in certain people's hands. Given all that information, I think it's probably a safe assumption that the Shadow Weave is fairly widely known of by now, that commoners in at least some areas could have a basic grasp that there is such a thing as the Shadow Weave (though almost certainly not details beyond that), that the governments of several nations and city-states are well aware of the Shadow Weave and the threat it represents to them and their citizens, the same being true of more than just a few churches, and that this information is spread out over a vast area of Faerun... So... yeah. By those numbers for the skills, that indicates a commoner would be around 7th level, those are cross-class skills for a commoner. The average commoner is still lower level then that. And this assumes the commoner bothered to learn things they would never use :) Sure, this orginization is known, but how many average folk actually understand all this talk of "Weave", "Shadow Weave"? The average folk understand this orginization fights "Evil Mages" and thats about it. Those commoners that have heard of the "shadow weave" would most likely assume ANYONE that casts an Illusion (Shadow) spell is useing this "shadow weave thing". That said, is knowledge widespread by now? Definately, Wizards all across Faerun know about it. Do average folk know about it? Sure, many especially in more cosmopolitan areas, where gossip is a more common mode of communication. This doesn't mean they understand what it is.
Faraer 03-07-07, 12:34 PM	There are many kinds of magic in the Realms. Most people will perceive two things: if a mage is on their side or an enemy, and if they use 'normal' magic or some strange, foreign kind. This is the level on which they'll be aware of the Shadow Weave. Only mages and a few other knowledgable folk have heard of the Weave, so it's not likely ordinary folk would know the Shadow Weave, or any other variant magic type, by name.
Stigger 03-07-07, 02:51 PM	Well, do note that I said "that commoners in at least some areas could have a basic grasp that there is such a thing as the Shadow Weave (though almost certainly not details beyond that)", not that they were qualifying for feats over the matter. The pre-reqs listed were more for the arcane/divine caster types that the Guardians are mostly comprised of... and to show just how undifficult getting the skills for those feats are. 5 ranks is a lot, but for class skills of wizards it should pretty much be doable by 2nd level... if you see my point there.
miscellany 03-07-07, 04:11 PM	To a point, yes. Anyone who with an Int of 10 or less will probably say "Tilverton's gone? Damn shame... let's go get something to eat" People with HIGHER IQ's will ask - "How'd that happen?" Silly Markus, it has nothing to do with an INT score. (But I will have that something to eat, thank you very much! :D) Your progression breaks down at about the City of Shade. It's a matter of the individual, their rank or position in society and their concerns vis-a-vis Shade. Just because some NPC in a game world has what (in game terms) is a 13+ INT score doesn't mean they'll automatically be able to uncover the fact that their is an actual difference between "Shadow Magic" (that is, magic that in game terms is from the Shadow Sub-School) and some other kind of Weave. Never generalize through game mechanics. That's like using a greasy lens to focus a laser beam back on its source.
miscellany 03-07-07, 04:29 PM	So... yeah. Now here is something we can sink our teeth into: Lore and Mechanics mixed properly together and used as a reference, without all the arrogant, elitist opinion thrown in...YES! Something like that can sway a person's opinion, you know? I don't quite agree with Stigger's assessment about the spread of the knowledge of the Shadow Weave. I don’t think it’s safe to conclude whole governments or the leadership of city-states knows about it, though I think certain higher-ups within the church organizations listed are aware of it. I don’t quite agree that commoners should even be aware of the concept of a Shadow Weave, even in those areas where the Guardians of the Weave operate. But this does show us there’s an ‘activist’ group out there at least trying to spread the knowledge. I wonder how many times they’ve been met with this response, “There are countless evil mages already and now you are trying to tell me they have a whole other source of power to draw upon? So what? They will still be as evil and troublesome as ever.” I’m surprised the group is tasked with detaining ‘evil’ mages, though. You’d think this would drive more mages away from Mystra at the minimum, and possibly towards the Shadow Weave. Thank you Stigger!
Alac Luin 03-07-07, 06:26 PM	Well, do note that I said "that commoners in at least some areas could have a basic grasp that there is such a thing as the Shadow Weave (though almost certainly not details beyond that)", not that they were qualifying for feats over the matter. The pre-reqs listed were more for the arcane/divine caster types that the Guardians are mostly comprised of... and to show just how undifficult getting the skills for those feats are. 5 ranks is a lot, but for class skills of wizards it should pretty much be doable by 2nd level... if you see my point there. Or those low rank requiment indecates that shadow weave magic and weave magic differ enough that it is easy to tell the differenence for someone who has the proper training in magic. this does not say that those who who are not trained in magic know the difference. Heck, the FRCS also states (IIRC) that not even all magic users understand how thieir spells interact with the weave,...
Alediran 03-07-07, 07:18 PM	Actualy as a cleric he would know that the spirit leaves the corpse and the spell access what is left of the brain for this infomation. To say he doesn't know what the spell does is silly. He developed much of his clerical abilities alone, he just had some basic training, but was left on his own for the most part. Also you had the punishment come from Aerdie who I think will know what the spell actualy does and wouldn't have problems with it. It's part of the elven culture the respect for the dead, as the quote I put some posts before tells that for an elf it's horrifying even the thought of doing something to disturb the eternal rest of the dead. And lastly if he is a mid-level cleric who doesn't understand his goddess and doesn't think what his spells actualy does he shouldn't be a cleric. As I said, he doesn't have formal training past the basics, and he didn't put ranks in Spčllcraft, so he doesn't really knows about his spells. I have always ruled a caster know what his spells does if he casts it...otherwise you just get some very stupid things. That like saying he doesn't know how bless works...so if I interpert it as guidence from your ancestors(because some writtier who never played D&D say it does)then no Elf could cast it because it is messing with somebody afterlife. Wizards, who study magic, and to some extent sorcerers (if they invert ranks in spellcraft) know the real deals about their spells, clerics pray for "miracles" (the spells) are the conduits of their god/dess' will, they aren't experts of how their spells work, they are experts of their gods. Also a Elf would completely cast a spell to bring back someone from the dead. Why? Because the spell allows a choice. Obvisously the writter either didn't understand how the spell works or was just trying to make it over dramatic. Again, elves frown from disturbing those who died. They resurrect somebody only in the most direst of needs. P.D: and it wasn't some unknown writer who wrote those facts about elves, they where Ed Greenwood and Elaine Cunningham, the most important writers about elves of the realms.
Xavier_of_Cormyr 03-07-07, 07:23 PM	we're also assuming that info of any sort passes along easily.. there is no information super highway or internet... word of mouth
createvmind 03-07-07, 09:22 PM	And of course the story will change from person to person till it's probably unreliable at best and therefore just taken as more rumor mongering. It is amazing that again instead of a commoner being about his trade which is his life's blood, his family and personal pursuits he will decide to "pump" abilities into something unfathomable as not only a magic scource but a possibly hidden scource. I've heard over the years the complaints over the lack of details involving many areas of Faerun when it comes to scource information. Dm's and players alike having sometimes one to two sentences to work with to figure out how to use a region or whats occuring in a region. Here it seems the opposite is applied simply because it is printed that it is therefore now well-known of. Funny how use of the Gaurdian Weave organization is used to back this yet at same time the fact that the leader who formed the group in 1372 was clueless of the 'Shadow weave" until actual victorious encounter. It is safe to assume she had required stats and "pumped" points yet she too stumbled across this knowledge after extensive research after the encounter. If again this is somewhat known knowledge why would Aluvauna have to pull strings to get church of Mystra's approval of all churches the one with the most at risk from this threat? Key point of contention is the year a person is playing and if keeping with game timeline and events. Shade doesn't return till 1372- unknown to all but select few beings as to "What" was floating above the desert. Mirtul- Galaeron tries to convince leaders of Comyr of the dangers of this city and is for the most part ignored. (Here one who was aware first hand of the possible dangers of the return of shade was dismissed meaning this information is stymied or nothing than a "off" elf's rantings. I guess if he had somehow determined that Shar was behind this although the deities name never came out of his mouth as far as I remember then things would have been different. Tilverton destroyed days later due to magic effect of which Vangy was even unaware would occur, gee another well stated and knowledgable being who goes "Doh!" Flamerule- phaerimm infiltrate council in Cormyr, revealing that they indeed were real and a threat to a council who thought it simple Shade propaganda. ( So the leaders representing the Heartlands, Cormyr, Dalelands, Sembia and much of the north now are aware some odd magic creature really does exist. But Naahh, they for some reason are thinking of things like magic and Shar, not logistics, diplomatic manuvering, marching armies and zhents trying to capitalize on the situation and oohh yeah cost.) Several of the people repesented at this council are well-traveled and of significant levels yet all are clueless of phaerimm existence until this point. Events qiuckly spiral out of control thereafter with much loss of life all around also representing loss of often firsthand knowledge. And you have but a handful of people who actually enter and attack Shade, and through this all the shadovar not once shout one peep about "SHAR". And just as the turmoil settles down and people try to get back to normal, burying and mourning loss of loved ones , rebuilding and trying to move on, a volcano erupts "somewhere" unbeknownst to the world at large then here comes dragons rampaging across the all of Faerun. Followed by demonic armies attacking up in the north and meteor showers to the south topped off with lightning storms again across the lands yet somehow with all these very real events occuring the "Shadow Weave" becomes a hot topic across the length of Faerun? I just don't get it........
GothicDan 03-07-07, 09:28 PM	Because - just like in science - once on person finds something out, through vigorous study and experimentation, they spread that knowledge when applicable. Once a few members of the Guardians of the Weave found out about the Shadow Weave, they should have told every other Mystra or Weave friendly organization (from the churches of Azuth and Corellon and Isis to the various Chosen to the Witches of Rashemen) about it, and shared their research for the betterment of all who use the Weave. That's NOT metagaming. It's science and politics.
BadCatMan 03-07-07, 09:45 PM	Yeah, but they spent ages checking for errors, cross-checking existing research, testing and debugging, then wrote it up in a paper, which waited around in the offices of the Cormyrean Journal of Magical Studies for a couple of months, then got printed in the semi-irregular journal, was ignored by most wizards who went straight to the latest studies in evocation instead, skimmed over by a couple of others, read in depth by a handful of mages who didn't understand it, and only really read by the wizard who came up with the theory, the hapless PhD student who was made to write it, and a couple of Shadow Weave users for whom it was all old news. That's science. :D
BrennonGoldeye 03-07-07, 10:04 PM	Because - just like in science - once on person finds something out, through vigorous study and experimentation, they spread that knowledge when applicable. Once a few members of the Guardians of the Weave found out about the Shadow Weave, they should have told every other Mystra or Weave friendly organization (from the churches of Azuth and Corellon and Isis to the various Chosen to the Witches of Rashemen) about it, and shared their research for the betterment of all who use the Weave. That's NOT metagaming. It's science and politics. Keep going........
GothicDan 03-07-07, 10:20 PM	So, anyone who has contact with churches of Azuth or Mystra - who should be pretty much any intelligent Wizard - especially after seeing ANY sort of strange magics being practiced, would be able to at least put two and two together. Or perhaps I'm giving Wizards too much credit for being near to geniuses? Am I metagaming again? ;)
miscellany 03-07-07, 10:32 PM	That's NOT metagaming. Nor is it entirely plausible. It's science and politics. Hardly. Science = quaint backwater concept (with a very few exceptions) in the Realms. If we take the concept of politics seriously, we have to factor in all the foibles of human (and non-human) character. Jealousy, zealousness, arrogance, racism, etc....yes D&D is a game where (in the Realms, as opposed to Eberron) alignments are absolutes, but we all know THE Realms is so much more. The assumed urgent spreading of such information, the assumed automatic belief on the part of recipients, the assumed 'network' of mages, the assumed faith in Mystra by all weave using arcane casters....sorry, highly unlikely in the Realms as we know it. 'Real' NPCs in the Realms don't behave (that is, cooperate and share) like players running a group of characters in the Realms. It just doesn't get any simpler (and factual) than that. :)
GothicDan 03-07-07, 10:36 PM	So, people truly do act like idiots in your Realms? Interesting. I guess my Realms is simply different than yours. In mine, allied churches and Wizards who are aware of knowledge that could potentially spell all of their disasters work together, at least to a point, in order to prevent it.
createvmind 03-07-07, 10:50 PM	Badcatman it's pointless, see because Shar is unaware that such minor organization with memebers who all have their own agenda, personal pursuits and just staying alive all have access to the internet!!!! All it's 100+ members have acquired a hive mind as well as with anyone else they have chosen to try and share this knowledge with. Also any such member walking about spreading/seeking such knowledge is thereafter immune to any attack, plot, kidnap attempt, poisoning, drugging, spying and assassination that occurs within far larger, more powerful and better organized groups simply because they are telling folk about the shadow weave and THAT knowledge is essential to daily living. See they don't have to travel miles upon miles across the lands/seas and survive that experience in itself, get information that was supposed to be current ohhh say 2 months before they set out to retrieve it. Hope that "this lead is factual" and then head BACK to plan on how to best pursue said lead. Gather resources necessary and then seek out this information which will obviously be right next door saving them the need to again travel long disances because everyone knows Shadow weave users all hang out at "Shar's secrets and other oddities" shop which is located right in the heart of wherever these gaurdians decide is convenient. And of course ALL organizations recieve these brand spanking new gaurdians spouting their theories with open arms everywhere they go and all city and clergy activities, political backstabbing, power plays, and of course even the disgruntled noble thinking treason against the crown stop to hear and take what they say as if Ao was speaking. Because these folk are so happy to be freed of their ignorance that they are not concerned about the flight of dragons descending on their city, a orc nation building it's strength. The rampaging Gray render smashing their logging camp, or their taxes just being raised again. We will ignore the ohhhhhh just mundane threats like zhents, slavery, robbery, monsters, oh yeah, Red cowls and gaggle of other real threats lowering daily quality of life. Nope these folks will decide that they will actually write this one down and pass it on to their neighbors. "Some woman we don't know of with some accent obviously not from our lands told us that their is an evil weave of shadows and we should make sure we look for them, whoever they are. Just to be safe we burned Lyash the weaver at the stake and no longer use baskets because they are a bad omen. By the Abyss! Duck! Here comes the ogre army that none of us have been concerned with for past 3 years to plunder and pillage, but at least we die knowing there is a shadow weave. May the gods bless those....., what did she say they called themselves again?" Interesting but wouldn't the clerics of the involved supporters deities have already told them of this insidious threat. Nawwwwwwwwwww, they need to be forewarned by a brand new group of "Ohhhh look what I found, I'm pretty sure no one is aware of this me being a middling mage and therefore I must inform the world."
Xavier_of_Cormyr 03-07-07, 11:22 PM	just to lighten the mood.... A husband and wife decided they needed to use "code" to indicate that they wanted to have sex without letting their children in on it. They decided on the word Typewriter. One day the husband told his five year old daughter, "Go tell your mommy that daddy needs to type a letter." The child told her mother what her dad said, and her mom responded, "Tell your daddy that he can't type a letter right now cause there is a red ribbon in the typewriter." The child went back to tell her father what mommy said. A few days later the mom told the daughter, "Tell daddy that he can type that letter now." The child told her father, returned to her mother and announced, "Daddy said never mind with the typewriter, he already wrote the letter by hand." :rimshot: now everyone take a deep breath & answer me this: are you going to get a copy of this "super" adventure?
johnkretzer 03-07-07, 11:29 PM	Um... how about this do we all agree that atleast one of the choosen or Mystra knows about it? If the Choosen knows then Mystra knows(though she should already know because of her portfolio sense, by the way that is the largest gaping hole in the whole SW thing). Mystra who is in charge of magic would not only have to stop because of survival but also the fact Ao might be displeased because she is not doing her job. Since gods act though they followers she send every Weave user a dream that they know is real and revealed this info. She also have her choosen and the Magster(sp) go out to the churches to reinforce the dream. Can anybody give me reason why this wouldn't happen?
johnkretzer 03-07-07, 11:37 PM	He developed much of his clerical abilities alone, he just had some basic training, but was left on his own for the most part. It's part of the elven culture the respect for the dead, as the quote I put some posts before tells that for an elf it's horrifying even the thought of doing something to disturb the eternal rest of the dead. As I said, he doesn't have formal training past the basics, and he didn't put ranks in Spčllcraft, so he doesn't really knows about his spells. Wizards, who study magic, and to some extent sorcerers (if they invert ranks in spellcraft) know the real deals about their spells, clerics pray for "miracles" (the spells) are the conduits of their god/dess' will, they aren't experts of how their spells work, they are experts of their gods. Again, elves frown from disturbing those who died. They resurrect somebody only in the most direst of needs. P.D: and it wasn't some unknown writer who wrote those facts about elves, they where Ed Greenwood and Elaine Cunningham, the most important writers about elves of the realms. I am not going to argue how you run your game...though I would propably never play a cleric or an Elf. Just two points. 1) Your player should be a Favored Soul. 2)They wrote about bringing somebody's spirit back from the dead(also if this novel was written with a 2nd edition ideal of those spells then yes you are right but in 3.x you can't do this without the spirits permission). Yes that is a problem with messing with someone afterlife....Talking to a dead guys brain isn't. But sure I understand I think people shouldn't be sterotyped by their races, but hey it is your game have fun.
createvmind 03-07-07, 11:43 PM	FYI ...Mystra has been aware of Shar's shadow weave since the sisters were children in Elminsters care and that was centuries ago and possibly well before Elminster was a chosen as well......possibly. Ao would do nothing, Shar is in contention with Mystra, part of the balance engaged in effect and yet to be played out. Who controls a portfolio and performs the responsibilities of That portfolio is Ao's only concern. Joke was funny btw
MarkusTay63 03-08-07, 12:06 AM	Silly Markus, it has nothing to do with an INT score. (But I will have that something to eat, thank you very much! :D) Your progression breaks down at about the City of Shade. Granted my numbers may have been a tad high, except for that weird farmer living in Cormyr most folks do not have a 13 Int. However, if even 1/10 of 1% of the people in Faerűn know about it, thats still 60,000 people who WILL have an inkling as to whats going on. That's not even including a good chunk of Shar's worshippers who SHOULD know, nor anything figured in on precisely HOW MANY people have actually been using this Shadow Weave for some time. Even if you went with 1/100 of 1%, that's still 6000 people and it could hardly be called a secret by ANY stretch of the imagination.
Stigger 03-08-07, 01:35 AM	I don’t think it’s safe to conclude whole governments or the leadership of city-states knows about it, though I think certain higher-ups within the church organizations listed are aware of it. I don’t quite agree that commoners should even be aware of the concept of a Shadow Weave, even in those areas where the Guardians of the Weave operate. So given the relationship the Chosen have to the governments of Cormyr, Waterdeep (debatable after Blackstaff I know), The Silver Marches, Aglarond, Berdusk, really the Lord's Alliance in general come to think of it, Tethyr, and the Dales... how hard is it to imagine that they'd be at least referenced as to if this Shadow Weave thing was a threat? With the existance of a 5th level spell like Sending, or simply knowledge of the Rune of the Chosen, it wouldn't be all that difficult to get in contact with them. Besides, consider the threat to your own 'magical forces' that shadow weave users would pose, if they are indeed difficult to detect, counter, etcetera. Given the reliance that a lot of those kingdoms and city states have shown upon those mages, it's certainly in their best interest to determine if there is something out there that can counter and gain advantage over a major component of your defenses. I don't think it's unreasonable at all to assume that the various governments would look into the issue on that basis alone. But this does show us there’s an ‘activist’ group out there at least trying to spread the knowledge. I wonder how many times they’ve been met with this response, “There are countless evil mages already and now you are trying to tell me they have a whole other source of power to draw upon? So what? They will still be as evil and troublesome as ever.” If they were stupid enough to approach it from the 'evil mage' perspective, they wouldn't be as successful in spreading and growing as fast and as far as they have. 150 members may not sound like much, but consider that the majority of them are arcane casters, who don't exactly have a great track record in general of working well with others. That alone says the Guardians are using some pretty compelling evidence and arguements to back up their approaches to nations and individuals, at least it does to me. So presumably, this matter is being handled intelligently and with diplomacy and finesse. I’m surprised the group is tasked with detaining ‘evil’ mages, though. You’d think this would drive more mages away from Mystra at the minimum, and possibly towards the Shadow Weave. This part I'll definitely agree with. It seems a somewhat stupid approach, and somewhat out of place given their larger mission... unless it's being approached from the idea of using that as a cover for their hunting of shadow weave users, which is about the only thing that really makes sense to me really, though it certainly isn't stated explicitly. Their other actions seem too well thought out and considered for it to be any other way in my mind, even if it's not that way RAW.
Alediran 03-08-07, 12:44 PM	FYI ...Mystra has been aware of Shar's shadow weave since the sisters were children in Elminsters care and that was centuries ago and possibly well before Elminster was a chosen as well......possibly. Ao would do nothing, Shar is in contention with Mystra, part of the balance engaged in effect and yet to be played out. Who controls a portfolio and performs the responsibilities of That portfolio is Ao's only concern. Joke was funny btw You could have just found the reason why AO put Midnight as the new Mystra. To finally start countering Shar's Shadow Weave.
GothicDan 03-08-07, 02:07 PM	Perpetuating the myth of Mystra being biased towards good spellcasters? Hmm, never. ;)
johnkretzer 03-08-07, 03:16 PM	FYI ...Mystra has been aware of Shar's shadow weave since the sisters were children in Elminsters care and that was centuries ago and possibly well before Elminster was a chosen as well......possibly. Ao would do nothing, Shar is in contention with Mystra, part of the balance engaged in effect and yet to be played out. Who controls a portfolio and performs the responsibilities of That portfolio is Ao's only concern. Joke was funny btw So Mystra has known about it all this time and what she is simply hangin back and dooing nothing? That fact that it has been around that long and she knew about has made it even more unbelievable. Face it was added on and it is just as thought out as most things they have tacked on. I DM the game intelligently. I set up plots that makes sense in the FR....I guess it would be nice if these writters did the same thing.
Xavier_of_Cormyr 03-08-07, 07:25 PM	So Mystra has known about it all this time and what she is simply hangin back and dooing nothing? That fact that it has been around that long and she knew about has made it even more unbelievable. Face it was added on and it is just as thought out as most things they have tacked on. I DM the game intelligently. I set up plots that makes sense in the FR....I guess it would be nice if these writters did the same thing. what would you have Mystra do? Destroy Shar? Every Shadow weave user? Please elaborate... And as far as the writers not doing their job intelligently- waaaaaaaaaay off the mark. We're all here debating a issue that the get paid to write. Many of us will purchase every installment of this super adventure & every other FR product to come down the pipe. They're doing just fine- keeping themselves working for WotC. Ah whatever... seems like every other thread on these boards lately BASHES WotC for mixing novels with RPG........... SO WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! RSE's make the world go 'round! They could phase out the Shadow Weave tomorrow; they'd replace it with another plot hook that some people would moan about. Ed Greenwood created the realms; the current game designers have the job of fleshing it out. If the people at the wheel use it, then we have to accept it,or exclude it from our individual compaigns. Can we at least agree on that???
createvmind 03-08-07, 07:38 PM	Yessir!!!!!
GothicDan 03-08-07, 09:16 PM	And some of us were stating why we do NOT use it. :) And some of us do NOT think that RSE's make the world go around. Some of us, in fact, hate them. To me, it feels like they're artificially shoving the world through its paces rather than letting it develop naturally; it's destroying things before we even have a chance to fully learn about them, and then calling it 'progress.'
johnkretzer 03-09-07, 12:37 AM	what would you have Mystra do? Destroy Shar? Every Shadow weave user? Please elaborate... And as far as the writers not doing their job intelligently- waaaaaaaaaay off the mark. We're all here debating a issue that the get paid to write. Many of us will purchase every installment of this super adventure & every other FR product to come down the pipe. They're doing just fine- keeping themselves working for WotC. Ah whatever... seems like every other thread on these boards lately BASHES WotC for mixing novels with RPG........... SO WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! RSE's make the world go 'round! They could phase out the Shadow Weave tomorrow; they'd replace it with another plot hook that some people would moan about. Ed Greenwood created the realms; the current game designers have the job of fleshing it out. If the people at the wheel use it, then we have to accept it,or exclude it from our individual compaigns. Can we at least agree on that??? um...mount some kind of defense against the attack on her person...Ok you are sitting these and someone walks up to you and sticks you with a pin...and keeps doing it. What do you to? I mean come on it is common sense here. Actualy personaly yeah hunt down all the SW users and either convert them back to the weave or kill them. Sorry the fact that they get paid doesn't mean they are doing a good job. Also it is unintelligent to do several things in my opinion: 1) Add something new and say well it has always been there. 2) Add something new without any thought of how it is going to interact with things in place(like the fact the city of Shade propably would be leveled by now.) 3)Characters do things that are completely against their established characters. For instance this plan is so poorly plotted out it is a insult to the way Shar has been depicted before that it is insulting to the character... Or having Mystra being pricked to death by a needle for 100s of years without doing a thing.... 4)It is very unintelligent to have 5 to 6 cosmic events depicted in novels that take place in a RPG world(not saying you can't have them but they should be introduced in soucebooks and adventures, yes I am glad that these books are adventures instead of novels)
miscellany 03-09-07, 02:19 AM	So, people truly do act like idiots in your Realms? Interesting. For you folks keeping score (esp. the young kids learning how to debate), Dan's last response is called a "Straw man Argument". That is, an argument or response that "puts words" into the mouth of someone with whom you are discussing or debating a topic. Literally, to say or strongly imply the other guy said something he didn't, then use that as the basis from which to "counter" the other guy's argument as you've wrongly described it. I never once talked about "my" Realms (on the contrary I used the term "we" more than once) yet Dan's response says I did. He then goes on to contrast "mine" with "his", as though home Realms Campaigns* were what was under discussion. (If GD wanted to go from bad to worse, then at this point he'd claim my response is a Straw man, but even he's smarter than that...**) The Realms is a living, breathing setting (a fact established by the reams of lore available, not to mention Ed's countless additions via Candlekeep that show us all the "real-life" details). I believe this is evidence enough to counter the claim that virtually all weave using mages are in contact with the churches of Mystra and/or Azuth, ergo all mages must know about the Shadow Weave, because this claim is far too simplistic. This is not to say it's impossible that some mages and some members of the curch(es) know of the Shadow Weave, and that amongst this smallish number there are those who are trying to spread the word. On the contrary, Stigger has already proven this is not only possible but is what has slowly happened in the Realms. But we must not forget that mages by and large can be described as selfish, not trusting of each other, arrogant, elitist, power-hungry, hardly subservient to Mystra, etc...and don't get me started on zealous priests who might just bring their wrath to bear on those who dare claim some other power beyond the Goddess of All Magic exists to fuel the spells of mages and the like. I don't think there's good evidence to believe Dan's claim that anyone in contact with such churches will conclude the Shadow Weave exists. :) *A common tactic used is for a respondent to straw man you by claiming your arguments are only reflective of "your" Realms; a neat way to mischaracterize your observations as "unofficial" so the respondent can dodge your claims and not have to write a proper rebuttal to them in response. **Another lazy "dodge" tactic to watch out for, btw.
miscellany 03-09-07, 02:38 AM	So given the relationship the Chosen have to the governments of Cormyr, Waterdeep (debatable after Blackstaff I know), The Silver Marches, Aglarond, Berdusk, really the Lord's Alliance in general come to think of it, Tethyr, and the Dales... how hard is it to imagine that they'd be at least referenced as to if this Shadow Weave thing was a threat? The thing is, very, very few individuals in those governments actually know the Chosen are “Chosen”. The Royal Court of Cormyr, for example, is hardly filled with individuals who, upon seeing Storm Silverhand striding down some royal hallway, are apt so say, “Halt, oh Champion of Mystra and Chosen of her divine will, for I would hear tell from you the greatest secret of Shade and its inhabitants to the north!” That said, you are right to infer that on some level each of these places will have individuals who are 100% aware of the Chosen and/or their close associates, and so are through them very much aware of the coming threat and will have to take (or have taken, as you’ve already shown us) some action to mount a defense against it (such as spreading the knowledge of the Shadow Weave’s existence. I think it’s possible that most War Wizards of Cormyr have some idea that Shadovar magic is hard to detect and dispel, but are much more likely to ascribe this to the idea that what the Shadovar use is a melding of old-school kick-ass Netherese magical know-how coupled with a millennia and a half of practical application and alteration of same for use in the Plane of Shadow, as they are to conclude Shadovar magic is sourced from a whole other weave! With the existence of a 5th level spell like Sending, or simply knowledge of the Rune of the Chosen, it wouldn't be all that difficult to get in contact with them. One cannot expect it’s possible to call upon a Chosen, make (much less demand) to know something from them and believe a perfectly amicable and complete response will be forthcoming. A typical Chosen is just as likely to give a half-answer that forces the questioner into danger to learn the rest of the truth on their own (so said Chosen can learn more that way about the Shadow Weave). Besides, consider the threat to your own 'magical forces' that shadow weave users would pose, if they are indeed difficult to detect, counter, etcetera. Given the reliance that a lot of those kingdoms and city states have shown upon those mages, it's certainly in their best interest to determine if there is something out there that can counter and gain advantage over a major component of your defenses. I don't think it's unreasonable at all to assume that the various governments would look into the issue on that basis alone. I agree, it’s not unreasonable that governments would “look into it” as you say. That’s a good starting point for any number of adventures, btw! ;) However such governments may not be automatically hostile. They could just as easily try to co-opt knowledge of the Shadow Weave for their own benefit! Selfishness is just as rampant in the Realms as Good and Evil, after all. That alone says the Guardians are using some pretty compelling evidence and arguments to back up their approaches to nations and individuals, at least it does to me. So presumably, this matter is being handled intelligently and with diplomacy and finesse. I would have to agree with you here. Nice talking to you Stigger! :)
Xavier_of_Cormyr 03-09-07, 08:43 AM	And some of us were stating why we do NOT use it. :) And some of us do NOT think that RSE's make the world go around. Some of us, in fact, hate them. To me, it feels like they're artificially shoving the world through its paces rather than letting it develop naturally; it's destroying things before we even have a chance to fully learn about them, and then calling it 'progress.' I know Dan.. you're full of hate... change your alignment from LN to something more Sith Lord'ish. I hear NE is looking for a few good people ;)
MarkusTay63 03-09-07, 09:39 AM	And some of us were stating why we do NOT use it. :)I actually haven't been able to run a game since finding out the details about Shade and the Shadow Weave here on these boards. So I haven't used anything since last summer... :( Anyhow, I have been thinking long and hard (don't get too excited Dan ;) ) about the whole ugly mess, and decided since it's canon I will use it, but I'm going to change it quite a bit. Its too ambiguous AS IS, but with some tweaking its usable. The way I see it, its either the OPPOSITE of the normal waeve, or a cheap knock-off. Unfortunately, as written its neither. Technically it should be brand new (at least since the ToT) because more folks SHOULD know about it if its that ancient. So what I'm thinking is that it is a natural byproduct of the universe... a balance if you will. It probably came into being soon after the original, and Shar herself only discovered it a short time ago (a century? Two? A year?). Its not really a Shadow Weave, Shar just likes to claim it is so. Its really called the Dark Weave, and it does lend itself rather well to Shadow magic, hence Shar's embracing it. In fact, the way I'm going to play it is that it was discovered by Lord Shadow himself, during his early research. Thats just my spin on it folks, so don't quote me on it. But by treating it as an 'opposite' I can make it more interesting and it becomes more believable (the whole Yin-Yang thing), at least for me anyway. Now Mystra doesn't control it because it is the polar opposite of the one in her portfolio, which makes more sense to me then the "Mystra is the goddess of ALL magic... EXCEPT..." argument. There shouldn't be exceptions to gods portfolios, its just too artificial to me. The one thing I have to ask people, not having read the novels (and not planning it), is that does the city of Shades Mythallar run off of the Shadow Weave? I have been assuming so because that makes more sense then the fact that their Mythallar STILL works the same after Mystra's ban, which rubs me the wrong way. If that is the case, then I have much less issue with Shade then I had originally. For you folks keeping score (esp. the young kids learning how to debate), Dan's last response is called a "Straw man Argument". That is, an argument or response that "puts words" into the mouth of someone with whom you are discussing or debating a topic.And the 'Straw man' argument seems to be YOUR ONLY argument. I'll keep my and Dan's Straw Man, you keep your inflatable friend... :P Seriously though, I get the idea that you just enjoy arguiing for argument's sake. Maybe its because your arguments are so far beyond my meager skills of comprehension that I am unable to process them? I just don't get it... Half the time I think you must be joking or something... :nonono:
johnkretzer 03-09-07, 10:19 AM	For you folks keeping score (esp. the young kids learning how to debate), Dan's last response is called a "Straw man Argument". That is, an argument or response that "puts words" into the mouth of someone with whom you are discussing or debating a topic. Literally, to say or strongly imply the other guy said something he didn't, then use that as the basis from which to "counter" the other guy's argument as you've wrongly described it. I never once talked about "my" Realms (on the contrary I used the term "we" more than once) yet Dan's response says I did. He then goes on to contrast "mine" with "his", as though home Realms Campaigns* were what was under discussion. (If GD wanted to go from bad to worse, then at this point he'd claim my response is a Straw man, but even he's smarter than that...**) The Realms is a living, breathing setting (a fact established by the reams of lore available, not to mention Ed's countless additions via Candlekeep that show us all the "real-life" details). I believe this is evidence enough to counter the claim that virtually all weave using mages are in contact with the churches of Mystra and/or Azuth, ergo all mages must know about the Shadow Weave, because this claim is far too simplistic. This is not to say it's impossible that some mages and some members of the curch(es) know of the Shadow Weave, and that amongst this smallish number there are those who are trying to spread the word. On the contrary, Stigger has already proven this is not only possible but is what has slowly happened in the Realms. But we must not forget that mages by and large can be described as selfish, not trusting of each other, arrogant, elitist, power-hungry, hardly subservient to Mystra, etc...and don't get me started on zealous priests who might just bring their wrath to bear on those who dare claim some other power beyond the Goddess of All Magic exists to fuel the spells of mages and the like. I don't think there's good evidence to believe Dan's claim that anyone in contact with such churches will conclude the Shadow Weave exists. :) *A common tactic used is for a respondent to straw man you by claiming your arguments are only reflective of "your" Realms; a neat way to mischaracterize your observations as "unofficial" so the respondent can dodge your claims and not have to write a proper rebuttal to them in response. **Another lazy "dodge" tactic to watch out for, btw. Now who is doing the strawman arguement? Our contention was that after a wizard or anyones with some magical knowledge came into contact with a shadow weave user he would find it odd and research it and could find out about the Shadow Weave. Others have said that is metagaming. We never said all wizards and clergy of Mystra or Azuth know about it, but it would be common knowledge among them because well clerics of a goddess who is being danaged by it would share the infomation with people to stop the spread of it. Also I find your sterotype of wizards to be completely false in light of things like magefairs, the church of Mystra and Azuth encourage the sharing of ideas and teaching the art, etc. And no anybody in contact with the churches won't automaticaly know but it is a good idea to ask for church research into this. Because they would have this infomation. Maybe they wouldn't know they have it but they would have it. And lastly it has been around for hundreds of years, can you tell me why Mystra(or now Midnight) haven't just told her faithful about it? Can anybody tell me any action that she has taken to defeat the shadow Weave? I mean it is just common sense.
createvmind 03-09-07, 11:02 AM	Please folks try to remember or reread what was said before continuing with the offshoot rants of this and that. The ORIGINAL topic or better yet scenario presented was on a weave caster defeating a shadow weave caster and going on the spell combat and NOTHING ELSE to try to come to conclusion within that moment the need for a Speak with Dead spell wich would allow caster to then come to conclusion of Shadow weave user. My argument based on that was it would be metagaming BUT if a halfway decent DM was running the game, the metagame attempt for that situation would fail miserably forcing the weave caster to have to find ways to investigate further. And I give you a very similar situation, a wizard (typical wizard attire) from Cormyr trained formally of course encounters a caster not from Cormyr who is throwing mostly serious evocation magic. This other caster is dressed in typical wizard attire as well, now the Cormyrian eventually blast the foreign caster and other than magic items similar to what any caster would use, finds no spellbook so therefore would assume caster was a Sorceror or wizard without his book right? However the caster is neither (another class altogether that the wizard has never encountered) but what would prompt the wizard to not go with his assumptions based on what logically makes sense and then to decide to seek to speak with the body to try and determine such. He's already victorious, chalking it up as another victory so what would truly prompt this? Lets make asumption that this "character" hasn't since lvl 3 been asking the cleric if there is one to constantly go around speaking with everything they slay. Lets stick with what would suddenly prompt him this time to do such instead of going with his assumptions. Those assumptions being.... Evoker Sorceror Possibly a dedicated specialist of Evocation. What would possibly lead this wizard to think "WARMAGE" and there not be metagaming involved.
createvmind 03-09-07, 11:11 AM	Now who is doing the strawman arguement? Our contention was that after a wizard or anyones with some magical knowledge came into contact with a shadow weave user he would find it odd and research it and could find out about the Shadow Weave. Others have said that is metagaming. We never said all wizards and clergy of Mystra or Azuth know about it, but it would be common knowledge among them because well clerics of a goddess who is being danaged by it would share the infomation with people to stop the spread of it. Also I find your sterotype of wizards to be completely false in light of things like magefairs, the church of Mystra and Azuth encourage the sharing of ideas and teaching the art, etc. And no anybody in contact with the churches won't automaticaly know but it is a good idea to ask for church research into this. Because they would have this infomation. Maybe they wouldn't know they have it but they would have it. And lastly it has been around for hundreds of years, can you tell me why Mystra(or now Midnight) haven't just told her faithful about it? Can anybody tell me any action that she has taken to defeat the shadow Weave? I mean it is just common sense. Who sponsors a mage fair has nothing to do with who attends a mage fair and for what purpose nor determine what deity they worship. And Ed has "fleshed" out magefiars quite nicely in novels as well and the mages present could give a rats arse about who worships what deity but rather who looks the most impressive and other such flawed human behavior. In fact what goes on at magefairs is anything but "Intelligent" behavior, read some of the novels, you'll see for yourself........no really. Realms of Magic is a good springboard And a little more FYI, almost uniformly the authors of novels and scource books have said repeatedly that the stats really take away from the game and world itself and they don't look at the game in such terms when discussing events, NPC's etc......
GothicDan 03-09-07, 01:19 PM	And a little more FYI, almost uniformly the authors of novels and scource books have said repeatedly that the stats really take away from the game and world itself and they don't look at the game in such terms when discussing events, NPC's etc...... And Rich Baker, the creator of the Shadow Weave, says that he prefers to stick as closely to rules as possible when writing novels. Only the older authors (Ed, RAS, Elaine, Steve, etc.) really deviate far away from the rules when writing novels.
createvmind 03-09-07, 02:06 PM	Nice try, your sleight of hand is pretty good. Not only did you just go off topic, no one was discussing rules, we were discussing metagaming knowledge of something simply due to it being in a scource books. No, not it being in a scource book, it being something the player of the character has read and somehow is coincidentaly applying to his character upon his 1st shadow weave encounter. Key point being his FIRST shadow weave encounter. And Richard is also one of the Authors who is not into a characters STATS determining characters/NPC's behavior or personality and doesn't like to speak about the topic of stats in regard to what a NPC should and shouldn't be able to do. Most pro shadow weave knowledge posters in here it would seem be unable to make arguments if we discussed regions that have almost know info on because you have no paragraphs and authors to quote (not that I don't use the same information). All these regions exist in faerun and all we do is speculate on what possibly is going on here and there which we would be doing here as well had not they added a "Gaurdians of the Weave" and a "Shadow Rend spell", in fact this would have been a whole different conversation probably a year ago. Those of us who still believe the knowledge of the shadow weave is still obscure across faerun would still be using the same points for our argument in most cases.
GothicDan 03-09-07, 02:10 PM	And Richard is also one of the Authors who is not into a characters STATS determining characters/NPC's behavior or personality and doesn't like to speak about the topic of stats in regard to what a NPC should and shouldn't be able to do. That's a blatant lie. He's said otherwise on Candlekeep, and here, when he's provided us with specific spells that Araevin's used, and specific levels of the NPCs in his novels. Those of us who still believe the knowledge of the shadow weave is still obscure across faerun would still be using the same points for our argument in most cases. Yes, we've noticed. No matter what evidence is provided to the contrary, you find convoluted ways to try to explain it away. Ed Greenwood's said that the Shadow Weave has always fit "awkwardly" into the Realms. Considering how polite he always is about new material, that's just about the worst judgment I've ever seen him make on an aspect of the newer lore. Anyway... The fact that a lot of us are looking at the exact same information and drawing completely contrary conclusions, at this point, makes it pretty obvious why our thoughts on the Shadow Weave differ. I don't think there's much more that can be said about this argument.
createvmind 03-09-07, 02:56 PM	I see your going to gloss over the fact that I stated almost All authors and the creator which you concurred with pretty much and make your point about one particular author again making my point. I wasn't talking about spells or HIS particular novel and for that matter I have an email from Mr. Baker from like two years almost where I asked about Avaerins celestial template and he said it didn't fall exactly under celestial template rules but was a variation of a sort. Again discussion wasn't what we think OF the weave and how it fits within the realms, call it convoluted if you must, and again you keep changing the point of the original topic. Metagaming the knowledge to apply it to ones character upon that first initial encounter. I also noticed you didn't bother to answer my scenario encounter which is no different than a shadow weave encounter. Our viewpoints on what fits in the realms is not what this topic is about. Funny thing about all of this, this is exactly what would occur in the realms in regards to the shadow weave, it would be argued, called nonsense, asked to be proven and so on yet somehow the pro- broad knowledge believers ignore that regardless of the tangible realities of what faerunians do know folks would believe this and spread this knowledge simply because a group of 100 and a Shadow rend spell? Ok, who is the creator of the Shadow rend spell and why would it take so long to be created if not created and stated so by the Sister's who have combated it personally since the sisters were children? They are clearly given credit for various spells as is EL and Halaster yet this spell is new, which implies POSSIBLY that either Azuth or Mystra guided someone to create it. Why wait 100's of years to do such a thing? I have an even better question, do you think based on how events currently are that Galearon has knowledge of the Tel, Quissir, the star elves and the portal gateway or whatever it's called at the end of the Fey ri series? That during his personal pursuits (I guess trying to thwart whatever Shade is doing for that 2 years he's going to for some reason just look into those areas simply because they exist. And as Avaerin is describe, the shadow weave seemed to have never came up in his history prior to his battling Sayra which would mean he probably has no knowledge whatsoever of this GotW organization which had now been in existence for 2 years and I believe he doesn't leave Myth Drannor until 1375 so would you say that he somehow decided to look into the Shadow weave though it's played no part in the events he has personally dealt with for past 3 years? I'm asking for just your take based on what occured, not rules and scource books.
Alediran 03-09-07, 03:17 PM	create you are confusing Araevin and Galaeron, Galaeron is a Shadow Adept from evereska who helped ending the siege of evereska. Araevin is the now Elven High Mage who fought in Seiveril's Crusade, he never had any relations with the Shadow Weave, and he leaves in 1380 DR after restoring the Mythal of Myth Drannor.
GothicDan 03-09-07, 03:26 PM	Again discussion wasn't what we think OF the weave and how it fits within the realms, call it convoluted if you must, and again you keep changing the point of the original topic. Metagaming the knowledge to apply it to ones character upon that first initial encounter. And, if one had regular contact with the Chosen or the Churches of Azuth or Mystra, I do NOT think that it would be metagaming, because those societies OBVIOUSLY know about the Shadow Weave, and gain nothing from witholding that information from all friendly Weave-using wizards. And we also know from Magic of Faerun that ALL of the major magic deities currently know about the Shadow Weave. I couldn't see Corellon NOT passing down this knowledge to his Elven High Magi. I also noticed you didn't bother to answer my scenario encounter which is no different than a shadow weave encounter. Our viewpoints on what fits in the realms is not what this topic is about. I'm sorry. I couldn't concentrate enough to parse your prose enough to even comprehend the scenario. That's not me being offensive, either. Ok, who is the creator of the Shadow rend spell and why would it take so long to be created if not created and stated so by the Sister's who have combated it personally since the sisters were children? Probably because the Shadow Weave has only existed in Faerun for a few years OOC, so there's no way we could have seen the spell actually created sooner? They are clearly given credit for various spells as is EL and Halaster yet this spell is new, which implies POSSIBLY that either Azuth or Mystra guided someone to create it. Why wait 100's of years to do such a thing? Because, up until the last few novels, we didn't even know when the Shadow Weave was officially created. I have an even better question, do you think based on how events currently are that Galearon has knowledge of the Tel, Quissir, the star elves and the portal gateway or whatever it's called at the end of the Fey ri series? Some of it, yes. The Tel'Quessir communicate, and one of the primary duties of the Elven High Magi is to make sure that communication paths stay open between one group and the next. Considering Evereska is a massively important Elven settlement, you can bet they would have been informed as to the situation, to a point.
createvmind 03-09-07, 03:49 PM	create you are confusing Araevin and Galaeron, Galaeron is a Shadow Adept from evereska who helped ending the siege of evereska. Araevin is the now Elven High Mage who fought in Seiveril's Crusade, he never had any relations with the Shadow Weave, and he leaves in 1380 DR after restoring the Mythal of Myth Drannor. Ummm that is exactly what I am referring to, two beings within faerun,well traveled and obviously high in intelligence yet by your statement you assume just as I would Araevin would have almost nil knowledge of the shadow weave. I see from Goth's recent response because of how the organization is "written" up they would automatically have this knowledge if it's out there. This is my point period, all beings in faerun are caught up in their own struggles relationships and endeavors, a fighter doesn't know about magic just cause, a wizard does't know about various traps just cause, a cleric doesn't know fauna and flora just cause regardless of stats. Regardless of how the shadow weave was crammed into the realms I just don't see how an addition of a spell or tiny group makes it widespread. Not saying anyone's viewpoint is wrong but it seems so about the numbers and rules and not the actual world itself.
GothicDan 03-09-07, 03:51 PM	Not saying anyone's viewpoint is wrong but it seems so about the numbers and rules and not the actual world itself. I'm really confused about this statement you keep making. I, personally, other than referencing the Rend Shadow Weave spell (and spells were ALWAYS as much about lore as mechanics), have referred to nothing BUT the world. All of my statements are made from a point of view considering how the world of Faerun seems to work. I know nothing, and care nothing, for 3.X mechanics.
Stigger 03-09-07, 04:00 PM	It's arguements like this which illustrate perfectly exactly why it's such a bad idea to introduce such massive fundamental changes that go against all history of the Realms... a silly arguement about paladins could easily be dismissed as 'well you just never saw them, like a living fossil' sort of explanation... but how was everyone supposed to miss a great big weave lurking in the corner for thousands of years?
GothicDan 03-09-07, 04:01 PM	In other words: RSE's are bad? ;)
Stigger 03-09-07, 04:03 PM	Not by nature... but really, really, really, really, really bad when they alter fundamental premises behind the entire setting without much in the way of 'Well, this is why everyone isn't an idiot for not noticing that extra weave'.
GothicDan 03-09-07, 04:05 PM	Apparently all of the magic deities have. But, apparently, they, for some reason, don't want to tell any of their followers about it. Mystra doesn't care for her Weave's existence much, it seems. If this was the case, and I was AO, I'd slap her with a big stick and say "YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE PRESERVING THE WEAVE, YOU STUPID WENCH!"
Stigger 03-09-07, 05:20 PM	The more and more I read about the SW, the more grotesque the idea of it becomes... because you really don't have a choice but to come to conclusions like that stupid wench thing when faced with the way the just slotted it in there without looking what was getting crushed by it.
GothicDan 03-09-07, 05:21 PM	No wonder Ed says it's an "awkward" fit. ;)
johnkretzer 03-09-07, 05:31 PM	Who sponsors a mage fair has nothing to do with who attends a mage fair and for what purpose nor determine what deity they worship. And Ed has "fleshed" out magefiars quite nicely in novels as well and the mages present could give a rats arse about who worships what deity but rather who looks the most impressive and other such flawed human behavior. In fact what goes on at magefairs is anything but "Intelligent" behavior, read some of the novels, you'll see for yourself........no really. Realms of Magic is a good springboard And a little more FYI, almost uniformly the authors of novels and scource books have said repeatedly that the stats really take away from the game and world itself and they don't look at the game in such terms when discussing events, NPC's etc...... "FYI" can you answear the last point of what you quoted, here I'll repeat it. If Mystra/Midnight have known of the Shadow Weave for so long( from what you said before even Elminster's time) What actions have she taken? Why wouldn't she make it common knowledge among her church? Also since there propably approaching thousands if not ten thousands shadow weave magic items in this long of a time period why can't there be previous research?
miscellany 03-09-07, 10:20 PM	Sweet, we're not locked yet! :D
GothicDan 03-09-07, 10:21 PM	Pft. This is by far one of the more civil heated arguments these boards have seen.
miscellany 03-09-07, 10:27 PM	The one thing I have to ask people, not having read the novels (and not planning it), is that does the city of Shades Mythallar run off of the Shadow Weave? In my campaign it runs off of Heavy Magic (novel term, sorry). I don't recall if the novels explicitly state one way or the other, though I think it's likely that it does not. And the 'Straw man' argument seems to be YOUR ONLY argument. Hey, to defeat the best you have to BE the best. ;) I try not to use them too much, but I also won't hesitate to call 'em when I see 'em. I'll keep my and Dan's Straw Man, you keep your inflatable friend... :P :rofl: Dude, how did you guess?!?! Seriously I can't wait to tell Miss Miscellany that one (though I may have to do it from behind cover and a very defensable position). ;) Seriously though, I get the idea that you just enjoy arguiing for argument's sake. Maybe its because your arguments are so far beyond my meager skills of comprehension that I am unable to process them? I just don't get it...Half the time I think you must be joking or something... :nonono: Nah you're smarter than that and totally enthusiastic about things which is refreshing. I just have come to accept it's necessary to shoot down the stereotypes and the canards (thanks to Faerar for that term, btw) or falsehoods that have 'grown up' (along with certain of the community) as 3E has grown up. It's dissapointing (I'd reallly rather see and interact with more from people on their Forgotten Realms campaigns) but almost always necessary. Ah well. :cool:
MarkusTay63 03-10-07, 09:15 AM	Now thats kind of scarey... you almost sound like...... ME! :D I personally hate Orcs, but I argued on there behalf for something like 15 pages on THAT ridiculous thread. I just hate stereotypes too, so I tear them down whenever I see them. The Shadow Weave - Meh As I stated above, I will accept it's existance in MY world, but the reasons for its secrecy will be BETER HANDLED then in canon. For instance - Why would Mystra NOT spread the word about the 'Ebil' weave? Because she wants as few people to know about it as possible. Her weave IS neutral (or supposed to be); do you really think she wants every malcontent and power-hungry mage switching over? It's in HER best interest to cover it up, all the while secretly using her chosen to counter-act it at every possible opportunity. If anything, it should be Shar spreading the word and singing it's glories. Now THAT makes sense. WotC needs more customers working for them, and less self-styled 'creative geniuses'. ;)
GothicDan 03-10-07, 11:47 AM	They need more of... ME! Mwahahaha. I wanted to work for TSR before WotC bought them out and put out 3E. Now I'll just have to focus all of my MASSIVE BRAINPOWERS! on particle physics. Sigh! .... So ADHD today.
MarkusTay63 03-10-07, 11:59 AM	Particle Physics... Forgotten realms... it's all alternate planes of existance to me. :P
Aldareth 03-12-07, 09:42 AM	oh its easy why they dont spreed the knowledge of the SW and let it be the "strange" magic user style i compare the SW to easy to build at home nuclearbomb, just because i know of it , i dont post a " how to" on the internet or tell it everyone i know. and why? because i know that some disturbed or bored kid is to try it out , not to talk off the powerhungry or revenge driven extremists all over the world so i keep the knowledge to me and maybe some other trustworthy individualls. Note: Goverments are not trustworthy as a whole, even in the realms we see corruption and infiltration every where
Xavier_of_Cormyr 03-12-07, 10:05 AM	oh its easy why they dont spreed the knowledge of the SW and let it be the "strange" magic user style i compare the SW to easy to build at home nuclearbomb, just because i know of it , i dont post a " how to" on the internet or tell it everyone i know. and why? because i know that some disturbed or bored kid is to try it out , not to talk off the powerhungry or revenge driven extremists all over the world so i keep the knowledge to me and maybe some other trustworthy individualls. Note: Goverments are not trustworthy as a whole, even in the realms we see corruption and infiltration every where oh man.. the FBI just flagged this forum... everyone, switch over to "thieves cant" (for the old school players)
createvmind 03-12-07, 10:56 AM	The Illuminati created "Thieves Cant" so we're screwed either way.
Xavier_of_Cormyr 03-12-07, 02:52 PM	The Illuminati created "Thieves Cant" so we're screwed either way. :incog: ::he knows too much... this one must be dealt with:: :incog:
msatran 03-12-07, 05:19 PM	Post where the point was proven by virtue of course of argument: The thing is, that the very confusion that sprouts out of the Shadow Weave is caused by the very dichotomy between these opinions. I wouldn't have a problem with the Shadow Weave if my players, some of whom are as big of fans of the Realms as I am, didn't ask me things like: Mike, what the !#$#! is this? Is this like the weave, but different? How can they possibly not have evil only on this? or "You can worship an evil god and not be evil, right, so this Shadow Weave stuff makes sense, right?" Well...you can have an evil god as a PATRON and not be evil. You just can't be a cleric of most evil deities and not be evil. If you aren't evil when you start, the logical progression of following the rituals, rites, and processes of worshipping an evil god will certainly make you wind up there. Likewise, you can't draw your power from an evil source (Shar) without eventually winding up there in the camp of evil. Eventually, a deity like this is going to demand SACRIFICES. And they won't be goats and donkeys. The problem is that in addition to blurring the lines between what makes a wizard, it also blurs the lines between what makes a CLERIC. Remember, all CLERICS draw from the weave too. This is what makes the whole shadow weave issue so bloody insane. If I'm a cleric of shar, do I have to take all the shadow weave feats? I probably should. But if I don't, am I a bad cleric of shar? What will happen to me if my fellow clerics find out? (See above part about demanding sacrifices....) This is why I don't like the Shadow Weave. Because ALL forms of magic, not just arcane magic, draw from the weave. If I'm a Ranger and I worship Shar, do I need the Shadow feats? If I'm a Blackguard and I worship Shar, do I need the Shadow feats? God forbid I should be in a game that uses Book of Nine Swords or Magic of Incarnum. The hole is in mechanics vs. theme. New Message: By the way, thank you all for the seven pages of debate. This only proves just how awkward the fit of the Shadow Weave is and how problematic the whole setup can be. I let you guys bicker not just to demonstrate the problems and issues with the whole Shadow Weave nonsense, but also to demonstrate WHY it's a problem. Half of you CLEARLY feel, as I do, that something like this would be OBVIOUS after only a couple of years, and half of you clearly do not. Some of you are willing to force your players to ignore things they put in the books for what you consider playability, and others of you aren't. In fact, one man's reason is another man's metagaming. I myself was accused of metagaming only a few pages ago, yet my players KNOW that I'll crucify them on a cross of melted dice if they OOC/IC crossover when I run. It never ceases to amaze me how I outlined a point, and then all of you proceeded to demonstrate PRECISELY why I was right, even if you didn't know what I was doing up until this very moment. It's NOT clear whether or not the Shadow Weave is any of these things in text, and the DCs for knowing about it are easy. So you guys can fight all you want. But the point was, in effect, that you would. :)
createvmind 03-12-07, 08:14 PM	Now THAT's some new and improved Thieves Cant msatran, shall we call Doublespeak :P
msatran 03-12-07, 10:02 PM	Actually, it's a debating technique known as paradigmatic setup. I used to win a lot of rounds with it.
johnkretzer 03-12-07, 10:24 PM	Actually, it's a debating technique known as paradigmatic setup. I used to win a lot of rounds with it. You are wasting your breath...you are using logic and reason so somehow you are metagaming this...
Zsych 03-17-07, 07:39 AM	Clerics draw power from the gods, not the Weave. It just so happens that with FR being the way it is, their spells still need the Weave to some degree, in order to function. And the Shadow-weave is a construct like the Weave that allows use of the underlying raw magic that is the source of all magic in FR. -- Personally, I would like Mystra to absorb the Shadow-weave(a mindless equivalent of Mystra IMO), and go mindless herself :P --- Shade... for all the evil in it. If I was in FR, I would choose to live there if possible. To learn among the greatest mages in the Realms. And Shade was much more interesting in LoD than in those novels. I don't get at all why Shade's leaders had to act like idiots. One would think that one would gain some sense after having lived for millenia. There is such a thing as intelligent evil. I keep remembering the line from the old High Level handbook. ~'These people have not become so powerful by being stupid.' ... the evil guys. They do not reach 10+ level by being trash. The level of the game is supposed to change when you've gone beyond dealing with enemies of the intelligence level of ogres.