Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Herr Doktor 01-12-04, 06:02 PM	I am pretty ignorant when it comes to what is effective marketing and what sells, et cetera... But, I'm pretty sure one of the best way to make sales is to try and sell products that will be purchased and used by as much of your target audience as possible. Keeping that in mind, here are my suggestions: The amount of races, feats, spells, magic items, and prestige classes in the more recent regional source books has been pinned on the fact that it makes these books more useful to the majority of D&D players and DMs, rather than those interested in the realms specifically. Fluff (something a lot of us really like to read about) gets cut out to make room for this. Here's an idea that might make everyone happy... Produce both a Fluff, and a Crunch book as separate materials. The two books could be sold together (in a boxed set, maybe?) as well as separately for those only interested in one or the other. There would be fewer of the boxed sets produced, probably, since the majority of people are supposedly only interested in crunch. I guess I'd like to see things in this format... Though it doesn't ring as feasible for whatever reason. What do you think?
Mystery Man 01-12-04, 08:03 PM	I like the mix, sort of like the "you got your chocolate in my peanut butter!" type approach. Separating the two would probably cost them too much money.
Lashan 01-12-04, 08:39 PM	I do not see this as happening as the current administration is against fluff in general.
ascendance 01-13-04, 01:23 PM	They do have books that are all fluff, and zero crunch. They're called the novels :) I suspect that the market for the novels is large and independent enough, though, that the book publishing department could produce something like Leaves from the Inn of the Last Home (i.e. an info book without any rules) and make money on it.
Wooly Rupert 01-13-04, 03:13 PM	What I really liked was the Volo's Guide series of books. Admittedly, the quality dropped off as they put them out, but they were still quite good. They were predominantly fluff, with just a little crunch thrown in.... I'd like to see them continue that series, and get the quality back up to at least that of the second one, Volo's Guide to the North.
Alac Luin 01-13-04, 07:39 PM	I will start with "I love Fluff":love: In no way would suggest that 2 books be sold together. One of the things I didnt like about the old Boxed set system was just this. I just want more fluff, more history, more legends, more ales, more cheeses!!! One of the things that made the FR a living world, and gained so many fans is the fluff. To just make the realms a bunch of stat blocks takes away from why many of us are fans.
WizO_BigSister 01-14-04, 03:08 PM	In my opinion the border between "fluff" and "crunch" is just not clear cut. Let me give you some examples * a paladin is not just defined by the statistics. You MUST take into account the "fluffy" bits about what a paladin can and cannot do in order to make this a balanced class * the way in which people react to a drow, and the difficulties ant drow has with teamwork with non-drow is a major disadvantage to using this race, and it helps offset the advantages * when a DM is trying to decide how Elminster will react to somebody pounding on his door she won't just roll a dice ... the "fluffy" bits of description of Elminster's life and personality will come into play. A DM is not supposed to just follow the bare bones of the numbers. In many ways using written words can give you a great deal more information than just using numbers. Just because numbers are not used does not mean it isn't important ... it means what is being described is too complex to boil down to a simple table. To put things in numbers terms the "fluff" provides data for the DM to decide what modifiers and/or penalties to use in a huge range of situations. The other thing to bear in mind is that there are a wide range of styles of plaing D&D. The books are written so that EVERYBODY can enjoy the setting and the game ... not just those who use a particular style.
Alac Luin 01-15-04, 03:12 PM	It is true fluff and crunch is not always a clear cut line. Also, different gaming groups play on different sides of that line. A good example is F&P. Fluffy: the gods’ dogma, history, clergy, and descriptions. Crunchy: The gods’ stats, abilities. In my games, I will never have my characters combat a god or if I did I wouldn’t use normal game rules for the gods. (personally I don’t see how a mortal will ever defeat even a demi-god). Some games have fights between gods all the time. As things of “Fluff” go, the best examples of past products that are from the FR. Arura’s Whole Realm Catalog. Pure fluff, sure not everyone used or liked it. The most objections seams to be from people that don’t like the idea of the chain store and why does Waterdeep need 6 of them? But looking at these boards for a little while, this is still one of the books being called for by the FR audience. It seams that some people wonder what kind of ales, whines, breads, cheeses their character consumes and what mundane equipment people use in daily lives. Volo’s Guide to……. Another personal favorite series. As is true with several people on the bords. The thing that separated these from the area guidebooks is that it fleashed out smaller areas, giving them more living feel. Instead of just saying that a bar had a friendly ghost, ot described that the said ghost was a former lover of the tavern owner and they still share intimacy of a sort and that the ghost is capable of being jealous and defends the tavern with all her abilities. Sure, in many games this level of knowledge isn’t needed (nor wanted), in some it is extremely desired. The problem with the Volo guides is they became more like the already released area guid books. In fact, VGttN, is some cases, used word for word descriptions from “the North” “Savage Frontier” , or “ Waterdeep and the North”. Understood, market reasons and such, that we may never get StayPuff fluffy, but maybe going for Rice Puff cereal fluff (A very fluffy crunch)
Faraer 01-15-04, 03:25 PM	The Realms, like anything else that's fictional, is made of lore. It's not made of game rules -- rulesets come, and they go. Commercially, I understand the effort to sell to non-Realms players, but it's visibly at the Realms' expense: the embarrassing rules-foregrounding approach is a letdown to Ed and the way the Realms was built. I don't much like Aurora's, or Elminster's Ecologies, because they introduced a lot of material into the continuity written by people who didn't know the Realms that well. The Volo's Guides (along with some of the FOR series) were TSR just beginning to publish material of the depth and detail that existed from the start, and then stopping. I don't think the Volo's Guides got worse at all, except for to Baldur's Gate II being shorter -- to the Dalelands is one of my favourite -- or became more like other sourcebooks: it was The North that reproduced text from VGN, not vice versa. I don't see how Herr Doktor's proposal would work, since boxed sets and multiple items are inefficient. Rich Baker has said that proposals to license out pure Realmslore books would be considered, and I think that's the way forward, though Ed is busy for now with the Waterdeep novel and Castlemorn.
Cunning Linguist 01-15-04, 03:28 PM	The best pure "Fluff" book/box set out there is Elministers Ecologies, imho.
Lashan 01-15-04, 04:57 PM	You can say that fluff is anything that is non-crunchy. In other words....no PrC's, monsters, spells, weapons, magic items, new sub-races, or new items. Just info about FR.
Ranger REG 01-15-04, 08:28 PM	Sorry, but IMHO, fluff and crunch cannot exist without the other. I mean, if you have an all-fluff book, this may be for devoted hardcore fans of the Realms, but that is usually small in number compared to the casual gamers. I don't think Wizards is going to print out less than 10,000 copies. An all-crunch book may be a bigger seller, but if you cannot explain the rationale of the new feats, skills, magic, etc. and how they will fit in the Realm (exclusively), then gamers will be lost and may use them improperly. Also how do you explain the existence of a class, and how does one roleplay that character with said class properly. After all, this is a roleplaying game, I'd like to know what kind of typical role this class usually display when interacting with other creatures in the fictional world. So there has to be a balance between the two elements, and still make a selling product. And the balance may vary with the context of each product you're trying to sell.
Crust 01-15-04, 09:17 PM	There's enough fluff in the novels to make the prestige classes, spells, magic items, and feats feel right at home in the sourcebooks.
Lashan 01-15-04, 09:45 PM	Screw the novels. Some of us don't read them. I don't think they count as the fluff for the fluff-lovers.
Wooly Rupert 01-15-04, 09:55 PM	I wouldn't call novels fluff, either. Sure, there may be a nifty idea or two spawned from a novel, but nothing like what I'd come up by reading thru a Volo's Guide...
Faraer 01-16-04, 11:01 AM	There's a difference between elements which have some rules description -- characters, spells, magical items, monsters, which are unobjectionable and have been part of the published Realms from the start -- and gratuitous crunchy bits which are motivated by the need to include X number of such and often (in the case of many feats and prestige classes) provide extra rules for abilities and situations the existing rules already cover. The balance Ranger REG mentions, of course, has to satisfy existing Realms players, entice new ones (a task that defaults to the novels if the sourcebooks aren't satisfying enough in themselves, which isn't a good solution), and (under the present thinking) sell to non-Realms players... Novels are certainly 'fluff' (i.e. Realmslore) according to how that term is being used, which points up even more how undescriptive, insulting, and crazy it is.
Crust 01-16-04, 11:02 AM	Originally posted by WizO_BigSister * when a DM is trying to decide how Elminster will react to somebody pounding on his door she won't just roll a dice ... the "fluffy" bits of description of Elminster's life and personality will come into play. And that's exactly my point concerning the novels. There is no sourcebook out there that explains to a DM or player how Elminster acts or behaves during a given situation. Sure, the Hall of Heroes and the Heroes Lorebook make an attempt at it, but the Elminster novels (and several other novels) do a much better job (and the people who would disagree are those who haven't read those novels... or the people who simply disagree for the sake of disagreement). To rely solely on the Heroes Lorebook (or the FRCS, for that matter) concerning FR characters and personalities (or any general inhabitant of Toril) is an example of either laziness, ignorance (which shouldn't be taken negatively - most people don't realize their own ignorance), or a severe lack of funds required to build a suitable library for a DM to draw from. As for fluffy sourcebooks, I must say that the 2E deity books are must-haves, as is Volo's Guide to All Things Magical. They contain their own crunchy bits, but they also contain a wonderful collection of fluffy material to help any DM along (concerning the deities of FR and odd magical practices... not the society of FR). If you want to learn about the sociology of FR, the novels are the best source... Aside from questioning Greenwood, Grubb, or other learned authors themselves. Oh yeah... IMHO. :D
Alac Luin 01-17-04, 06:28 PM	Originally posted by Faraer it was The North that reproduced text from VGN, not vice versa. Stand corrected:) I think in part what I was trying to say is that they overlaped and covered each area with severel products while others were left neglected. So when someone went to buy a new suplement, they had several to choose from much containing the same info. Besides a few die hards, most people would probobly chose 1 insted of 4-5.
Herr Doktor 01-20-04, 11:00 AM	One of the things that worries me about all of the CRUNCH in recent materials is the fact that a new edition of D&D will be coming out soon (stated as being at least 5 years away, I don't know if I buy that). A lot of my 2nd edition Realms material is still useful. Because, of the FLUFF content. History, events, places... Less rules and more flavor was involved in the content of Realms products back then. What happens when D&D 4.0 comes out and the mechanics have changed again? Will any of this CRUNCHY stuff still be at all useful? I'm still waiting on an earlier editions to 3.5 conversion guide, and a nice compact 3rd edition to v.3.5 would also be appreciated. At least that way the uselessness of the old CRUNCH could be overcome with a little time and effort.
AlexanderHeppe 01-20-04, 11:25 AM	Well, for me it is definitely to be crunchy fluff. I need sourcebooks with about a quarter to a third game mechanics, the rest being fluff. Does anybody remember the old players guide to the FR? It looked like a sourcebook from the outside, but turned out to be a summarized report of the doings of an adventuring group in the hire of Selunes Clergy. A Novel!!! I ordered it by mail and was quite disappointed to find only fluff inside. It would have been much better with sidebars detailing the regions the characters came from, and game info on how to run certain things in YOUR campaign. It was a fun read, don´t get me wrong, but I had expected more from a player´s guide. I am really curious how the new one will turn out. After reading that it contains "Over 60 feats - Over 30 prestige classes - Over 90 spells" I am really concerned if there is any Realms-relevant facts at all, not just numbers and mechanics...
Ranger REG 01-21-04, 02:00 AM	Originally posted by Crust There's enough fluff in the novels to make the prestige classes, spells, magic items, and feats feel right at home in the sourcebooks. That assume you're making a novel-based game product. But if a product focus on a theme and use many novels as references, not many of us are going to go out and buy those novels, so you might as well include the "fluff" info with the game product. Also, it's an underhanded way of making the customer buy more of your "required" product. Sort of like going into a store with the intention of upgrading your video card, you ended up buying a new complete gamer's PC.