Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alediran 02-26-08, 09:34 AM	Since it's an important topic to be discused I'll start with my point of view (short since I'm full of work in my job at this moment) The most important fact is that AO is All Knowing and All Powerful in Realmspace, therefore when he asked Midnight to be the new Mystra he already knew what she'll do with her new divine powers, that's why AO gave Midnight a couple of Years to get used to the position before telling her to stop favoring one side of the world. The second most important fact is that a New Mystra was ascending, we know as fact that AO is the one who controls every aspect of divinity, from ascensions and demotions to changes in portfolios, like the case with Finder Wivernspur asking AO to change one of Moander's portfolios. Therefore the conclusion I have is that AO would never allow Shar to stop the ascension of a new Mystra since it was the same AO who ascended that Mystra.
sazisme 02-26-08, 10:14 AM	Another possible conclusion being that Ao does in fact approve of the blocking of a new Mystra, since he knew it was going to happen this way. Sidenote - Is Ao really all knowing and all powerful in the Realms? Wouldn't an all knowing/powerful deity not have items stolen from him and the punish all the gods until those responsible admitted it? Just asking...
Alediran 02-26-08, 10:19 AM	Ao already knew that Bane/Bhaal/Myrkul would steal the Tablets of Fate, they handed AO a reason to banish all gods in silver plate. AO baited them and they bited it. And no, it's completely illogical that AO allowed the blocking after making a new Mystra, it would be FAR more logical than AO separated the divine essence of Mystra and gave it back to Shar and Selūne without raising a new Goddes of Magic that would last for less than a day. It was a big inconsistency in the part of WotC to make that statement that they can't change it since we all know it's already there.
GothicDan 02-26-08, 10:25 AM	Let's think about this in the lowest terms. What is AO? What does he do? He seems to make sure that each deity in Realmspace is appropriately promoting their portfolio. Mystra certainly seemed to be doing that, and she specifically changed (for the better) after the Trial of Cyric the Mad. Does Shar have anything in her portfolio remotely related to magic? No. Mystra was the second most powerful deity in the pantheon, perhaps first depending on the situation. Shar should not have had the power to do this, as much as I like her. What it boils down to is what Rich said in joking: Shar killed her and took her stuff. WotC doesn't need, nor want, an in-game reason to prevent Mystra's resurrection. They killed her based on the judgment calls of a few loud n00bs screaming about how overpowered she was. I'm sorry guys, but WotC doesn't care about the consistency of Mystra any more at this point.
Rauric 02-26-08, 10:50 AM	We don't know how Shar "stopped" the new god of magic. Perhaps Mystra was going to be gone for good and AO was going to make another god of Magic, maybe Selune? Nobody knows the specifics yet because the book isn't out, just a few comments on an internet article. Didn't AO let the fate of Cyric rest in the hands of a tribunal of his peers? Perhaps something like this happened again. I now realize I am not fond of AO since he is just a heavy handed plot device that only existed to help with TOT. That is fine I guess but TSR decided to keep using him in the novels and that was a big mistake. Actually all of the "gods as characters in novels" should have stopped at TOT in my opinion. TOT started the soap opera of the gods, TSR ran with it and WOTC is just following in it's footsteps.
sazisme 02-26-08, 10:51 AM	Ao already knew that Bane/Bhaal/Myrkul would steal the Tablets of Fate, they handed AO a reason to banish all gods in silver plate. AO baited them and they bited it. And no, it's completely illogical that AO allowed the blocking after making a new Mystra, it would be FAR more logical than AO separated the divine essence of Mystra and gave it back to Shar and Selūne without raising a new Goddes of Magic that would last for less than a day. It was a big inconsistency in the part of WotC to make that statement that they can't change it since we all know it's already there. So he could set up a scenario for Bane/Bhall/Myrkul to bite on a trap and banish all the gods, but he couldn't set up a scenario for Shar to THINK she's actively blocking the new god(dess) of magic while at the same time giving a portion of the old portfolio's of Mystra back to Selune but not to Shar? I'm not saying it's awesome or consistent. I'm saying Ao is a) a deity beyond real comprehension who's overall goals and motivations we don't really know and b) a fictional character that WotC or anyone can write to be motivated to do pretty much whatever they want to justify their story. Maybe Shar isn't blocking anything. Maybe Ao is doing it, and just letting everyone think it's Shar.
GothicDan 02-26-08, 11:02 AM	I now realize I am not fond of AO since he is just a heavy handed plot device that only existed to help with TOT. Oh, just now? When it's fortuitous for disagreeing with the grognards? ;) TOT started the soap opera of the gods, TSR ran with it and WOTC is just following in it's footsteps. I argue in my fraternity all the time against mindless tradition. I'll do it here, too.
Rauric 02-26-08, 11:17 AM	I noticed Alediran in another post use AO and that it is and what it would do and I realized AO is a throwaway creation of TSR that was meant for only one thing. Since he was used more than once some people think they know what he is about, they also think he has some deep purpose in the Realms. He was a thowaway plot device. I am fine with it because I treat AO like 3e and 4e will treat AO, like he doesn't mean anything. Before I saw Alediarans posts on another thread I just didn't think about AO. After reading his posts I now dislike AO. It doesn't really affect my game or feeling about the Realms though. Plus I do not like having gods as characters and I hope that stops in the novels. Novel fans of the Realms buy those stories though and they sell so we will never get rid of them I fear. I like non-RSE novels that do not have Ed writing it. Sorry but except for Els first book I cannot stomache Eds writing in novels. The Finders Stone Trilogy is my favorite FR series though. Alias and Giogi are my favorite FR characters.
MarkusTay63 02-26-08, 11:54 AM	I went to post this over in the designer's thread, but moved it here instead: My thoughts, in a Nutshell - ...I think it's purely idiotic, AO aside (who I hate). Ao is dead. That would resolve a lot of things. Rich, so can I assume you guys are basically not using AO like you did in 3E? If this is the case I am relieved.Ao's existance creates more problems then it fixes - the 2e team should have never came up with him. Say he left, got killed, was fired, etc.... whatever... but just get him out of there. I never had a problem with the guy, but I never saw much of a need for him either. Personally, for what it's worth, just say another Overgod was keeping him busy somehow. Maybe Shar brought Erebus over to her cause (just say he's the Overgod of the Shadowfel), or Asmodeus, or even the Lady of Pain (maybe she was ticked off about Ao seperating the Realms from the Great Wheel, and making everyone forget about it)... Seriously, Rich, just figure out a way for him not to be around anymore. Oh... and make it good. ;) Now, something for THIS thread - Just say that Shar used the Scepter of the Sorceror Kings to kill Mystra. The artifact was designed to do JUST THAT - kill a god and destroy its essence permanently, so it CAN'T REFORM. It was built by the early Netherese, and never got a chance to be used. Personally, I would just say one of them recovered it from Imaskari ruins, because it fits better with their lore, but either way, its canon and it can be used in this instance!
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 12:06 PM	-This probably belongs in the 'Deities and Magic' forum, everything else aside...
Meldread 02-26-08, 12:23 PM	I agree with the consensus this far. Ao is a poor plot device that should have never been introduced. Additionally, there are an infinite number of reasons that Ao would allow what has happened and an infinite number of reasons why he would not have allowed it. He is beyond mortal comprehension. Therefore, him doing anything or nothing is beyond debate - when you debate Ao you are like a flatworm debating the vastness of the universe. You will never, ever, be able to understand a being so vastly greater than yourself, thus in doing so you ultimately fail.
Alediran 02-26-08, 12:37 PM	I think AO is a good plot device because without him the whole war between groups of gods would have much more corpses in the Astral Plane, gods like Eldath could never survive without AO. Without AO there would be anarchy between the gods, they'll constantly fight among them, they'll ignore the mortals in the Material Plane. And AO is the construction of human minds, therefore we can speak of him without being worms talking about the universe, since AO was defined by human minds then he can be understood by human minds.
Rauric 02-26-08, 12:43 PM	Eldath survived for a long time in Eds Realms before AO was introduced. Many campaign worlds survive without an overgod. AO was introduced to explain the Avatar Crisis, that is all. Troy or whoever wrote the Cyric debacle decided to keep using it and just made things worse IMO.
Alediran 02-26-08, 12:46 PM	Rauric, that's because before the ToT the gods never fought among them or ignored the Mortals in the Material Plane or did the kinds of things they have after those books where published, the same trilogy that created AO was the one who created the whole wars between gods. Since WotC will not abandon the war between gods then they can't abandon AO either, you need him to keep things in check, otherwise you'll never have any single god alive (except Shar, of course)
Rauric 02-26-08, 12:48 PM	Dawn Cataclysm. Besides Eds Realms did fine without AO.
Alediran 02-26-08, 12:59 PM	Dawn Cataclysm. Was that created by Ed? IIRC is was made by TSR. Besides Eds Realms did fine without AO. Because Ed never made their gods attack each other directly (which begun with the ToT), they had to use their followers.
buzzard 02-26-08, 12:59 PM	Rauric, that's because before the ToT the gods never fought among them Shar vs Selūne sometime after they were created. Oh, and also Shar vs Selūne vs every other deity that sprung from that conflict (the deities of death, disease, war AND magic among others were born because of that fight).
Alediran 02-26-08, 01:02 PM	Shar vs Selūne sometime after they were created. Oh, and also Shar vs Selūne vs every other deity that sprung from that conflict (the deities of death, disease, war AND magic among others were born because of that fight). That was during the primordial time, and they are but legend and can't be confirmed as actual facts. The rest of the time, the factual time, the gods fought using their followers.
GothicDan 02-26-08, 01:08 PM	I really dislike AO. I would never, ever use him. But I dislike Shar "blocking" a new goddess of magic from arising, too, since we've had no suggestions thus far that this should be within her power.
Alediran 02-26-08, 01:10 PM	I dislike Shar "blocking" a new goddess of magic from arising, too, since we've had no suggestions thus far that this should be within her power. That's my exact major problem with WotC at this moment.
msatran 02-26-08, 01:11 PM	That's because Lord Ao is really Harry Belafonte. And with the 4th edition Realms, I have only this to say. AYYYYYYYYYYY-OOOOOOOOOO! AY-AY-AY-O! Here I come, and me wanna go home! Come Mr. Perkins, Man, Tally me up Mystra, Here I come, and me wanna go home! Here I come and me wanna go home! This is worse than New Coke! Here I come and me wanna go home!
GothicDan 02-26-08, 01:14 PM	Msatran's got my POV down. He's accepted that WotC doesn't care, and he's singing the Endsong.
buzzard 02-26-08, 01:15 PM	That was during the primordial time, and they are but legend and can't be confirmed as actual facts. The rest of the time, the factual time, the gods fought using their followers. Err, no, Chauntea's, Selune's and Shar's (especially) entries in Faiths and Pantheons present the "Creation Myth" as fact. You said there was no conflict between gods before the TOT and I've proved yo u wrong, the "it was during the primordial time" is a poor man's excuse. And in 4th edition Selūne reabsorbs her divine essence that went into Mystra (and Shar probably too), meaning that what was done is undone and that means no more deity of magic (this also proves that the creation myth is true since the myth states that Selūne's and Shar's energies formed Mystryl and now they are taking it back) In fact, Selūne is probably even more responsible for the lack of a new deity of magic since the main portion of divine essence that formed Mystryl came from Selūne and she has recovered it.
Alediran 02-26-08, 01:22 PM	Err, no, Chauntea's, Selune's and Shar's (especially) entries in Faiths and Pantheons present the "Creation Myth" as fact. Which runs against the idea that there wasn't a defined origin of Realmspace for most of the settings' existance. It's the same thing WW did to Vampire when they changed from different possible beginings to one forced creation myth. You said there was no conflict between gods before the TOT and I've proved yo u wrong, the "it was during the primordial time" is a poor man's excuse. You are using the Realms Time-line, I'm using the Real World's time-line where FR didn't had god wars until they were introduced as a fact late on. Ed created the gods as entities who fought between them through proxy. And in 4th edition Selūne reabsorbs her divine essence that went into Mystra (and Shar probably too), meaning that what was done is undone and that means no more deity of magic (this also proves that the creation myth is true since the myth states that Selūne's and Shar's energies formed Mystryl and now they are taking it back) In fact, Selūne is probably even more responsible for the lack of a new deity of magic since the main portion of divine essence that formed Mystryl came from Selūne and she has recovered it. Where is this stated as fact? Because we only know that Shar is "blocking" the ascension of Mystra, she is not absorbing her part of Mystra's essence nor she is keeping the Shadow Weave either. WotC never stated that Selūne reabsorbed Mystra's essence.
Rauric 02-26-08, 01:38 PM	Omg, you just make up stuff as you go along to justify your statements is that it? Ok. TSR made the Dawn C. Fine. So if AO existed back then why didn't AO do anything about it? He should have interceded following your logic correct?
Alediran 02-26-08, 01:45 PM	Omg, you just make up stuff as you go along to justify your statements is that it? No, I just have a flawless memory for every little fact I learn. Ok. TSR made the Dawn C. Fine. So if AO existed back then why didn't AO do anythign about it? He should have interceded following your logic correct? The Dawn Cataclism didn't had the same effects than the Spellplague (Faerūn remains the the same since the Sundering), we don't even know what consequences it had (other than Tyche's split), therefore we can't asume if it was as big as we think, one of the theories we have available is that it happened during the time that the different pantheons merged, which would imply that AO allowed it since he enforces his idea of only one god holding a portfolio in the same pantheon (unless one of them is a demigod)
buzzard 02-26-08, 02:05 PM	Which runs against the idea that there wasn't a defined origin of Realmspace for most of the settings' existance. It's the same thing WW did to Vampire when they changed from different possible beginings to one forced creation myth. Still canon no matter what you say. You are using the Realms Time-line, I'm using the Real World's time-line where FR didn't had god wars until they were introduced as a fact late on. Ed created the gods as entities who fought between them through proxy. Same as above. Where is this stated as fact? Because we only know that Shar is "blocking" the ascension of Mystra, she is not absorbing her part of Mystra's essence nor she is keeping the Shadow Weave either. I never said that Shar reabsorbed the essence as a fact (I said "probably"). As for Selūne: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14490085&postcount=1366 You didn't hear it from me, but I think Selune's going to be a greater god by the time this all falls out... at least a portion of Mystra's power is restored to Selune when Mystra falls. That doesn't make Selune the new goddess of magic, but I wouldn't be surprised if surviving clerics of Mystra tended to turn to Selune in the years following the Spellplague. And that's why I said that Shar PROBABLY recovers her portion too. If Selūne's divine essence goes back to her then why shouldn't Shar's do so as well? WotC never stated that Selūne reabsorbed Mystra's essence. Yeah, right, know it all...
Alediran 02-26-08, 02:08 PM	Still canon no matter what you say. As cannon as the fact that a NEW MYSTRA was being ascended by AO (who is the only one who can ascend gods) the absorption it's a probability, it's not hard fact, therefore it's useless in this thread where we are discusing why Shar is blocking the Ascension of a New Mystra (fact), which can't be possible if both Selūne and Shar absorbed the Divine Essence of the fallen Mystra since a New Mystra could never exist if both goddesses absorbed the fallen Mystra's essence. Another contradiction by WotC.
buzzard 02-26-08, 02:13 PM	But it's a probability, it's not hard fact It is fact, Selūne becomes a greater goddess in 4th edition because she recovers her PORTION of divine essence that went to Mystryl as stated by Rich. therefore it's useless in this thread where we are discusing why Shar is blocking the Ascension of a New Mystra (fact) As fact as the above, and as for no new Mystra see below: , which can't be possible if both Selūne and Shar absorbed the Divine Essence of the fallen Mystra. Mystryl was created with a PORTION of Selūne's divine essence and a PORTION of Shar's divine essence. We know that Selūne recovers hers (as in her PORTION and not its entirety) . Without that needed PORTION there can be no goddess of magic since nor Shar nor Selūne were able to create a deity of magic by themselves -it took the mixed essences of both to create Mystryl- (and Selūne would have had reasons to do so since she approved -and benefited- of Mystryl's/Mystra's existence). And it is possible that Shar may have recovered her portion as well. Another contradiction by WotC. Not
Alediran 02-26-08, 02:16 PM	You aren't getting the fact that a NEW MYSTRA WAS BEING ASCENDED, as new means a 3rd Mystra. The quote you posted said that Selūne and Shar absorbed the essence of the fallen Mystra, the 2nd, therefore stoping the creation of a new Mystra. If you can't see the big flaw in logic then I'm sure you belive 2 + 2 (using the standar addition mathematical function, without any redefinitions) = 5
buzzard 02-26-08, 02:30 PM	As cannon as the fact that a NEW MYSTRA was being ascended by AO (who is the only one who can ascend gods) Provide an exact quote where it is stated that Ao was ascending a new goddess. :). Don't bother if it's not an exact quote because blocking the possibility of ascending a new goddess does not equal blocking the ACT of ascension, it could mean precisely the destruction of Mystra's portfolios, as a side note, maybe Selūne recovers her portion because Shar absorbed hers first the absorption it's a probability, it's not hard fact, Shar's maybe but Selūne's is as fact as you can get and without even one of both essences there can be no Mystra, it does not even matter if Shar did get her portion in the end, the lack of Selūne's portion is enough for the Weave to go "bye-bye". therefore it's useless in this thread where we are discusing why Shar is blocking the Ascension of a New Mystra (fact), which can't be possible if both Selūne and Shar absorbed the Divine Essence of the fallen Mystra since a New Mystra could never exist if both goddesses absorbed the fallen Mystra's essence. To block the ascension does not mean that's she's actively doing something, the destruction of the Weave portfolio is enough. You said so yourself a "New Mystra could never exist if both goddesses absorbed the fallen Mystra's essence". (I'll correct you and say that if any one goddess absorbed the blablabla...) thus the possibility of a new Mystra ascending is blocked. Another contradiction by WotC. And changing your entire post huh?. Real mature. I still got to quote you so the original post is there :) You aren't getting the fact that a NEW MYSTRA WAS BEING ASCENDED, as new means a 3rd Mystra. Again provide an exact quote where it says X person is BECOMING the new Mystra, the only thing that you can get is a quote that says that such a possibility is blocked but not that Ao was even trying to do such thing. The quote you posted said that Selūne and Shar absorbed the essence of the fallen Mystra, the 2nd, therefore stoping the creation of a new Mystra. No, the quote says that Selūne absorbed her portion of the essence, there's no factual information about Shar doing the same thing If you can't see the big flaw in logic then I'm sure you belive 2 + 2 (using the standar addition mathematical function, without any redefinitions) = 5 Considering that you equal an impossibility to do something with actively preventing something to happen tells me that the one with the logical problem is you. ("Birds can't fly" does not equal "X is preventing birds from flying", likewise ("There can be no god of magic because such portfolio no longer exists" does not equal "Shar is blocking a new god of magic from ascending"). And BTW, the Dragon article says that Shar suppresses the ascension of a new deity of magic which can perfectly mean that the Weave, Magic and Spells portfolios no longer exist. Also note that it's "suppresses" and not "continuously suppressing" (which would mean that Ao would be able to ascend a new deity of magic now is no longer "continuously suppressing" the act) that probably means that the portfolios are gone.
Alediran 02-26-08, 02:37 PM	I'll have to post that chunk of lore in my sig, because I have to post it every time I mention Shar blocking the ascension of a New Mystra For eons, the use of magic in Faerūn was focused through a god of magic, most recently Mystra. Except for certain Netherese wizards of ancient days who learned the truth, most believed that no magic would be possible without such a deity. However, with the death of Mystra and jealous Shar suppressing the ascension of a new deity of magic, it became common knowledge that magic is accessible without a god to control and codify it. Now when a spellcaster speaks of the Weave, she is just using another term for magic. The bolded part (which is from a published article from Dragon Online) states the fact that a new goddess of magic was going to ascend. We also know as fact that AO is the one who decides who get's ascended and who get's demoted and which god gets a portfolio, therefore if he decided to make a new goddess of magic then he was against Selūne and Shar of recovering their piece of Mystra's essence, therefore meaning that neither goddess should have it, meaning that your quoted statement is impossible. If on the contrary what you quote is official, then WotC should remove the bolded part because it contradicts your quote. Which gives us the net result of a big contradiction that WotC will have to address in the CS or it'll only create more inconsistencies than the Shadow Weave.
Rauric 02-26-08, 02:39 PM	buzzard try this :banghead:. You will get the same result and the feeling may be more pleasurable.:D
Alediran 02-26-08, 02:41 PM	buzzard try this :banghead:. You will get the same result and the feeling may be more pleasurable.:D Not for him, we have great skill at discussing the finer points of things since we learned to talk.
buzzard 02-26-08, 02:46 PM	The bolded part (which is from a published article from Dragon Online) states the fact that a new goddess of magic was going to ascend. We also know as fact that AO is the one who decides who get's ascended and who get's demoted and which god gets a portfolio, therefore if he decided to make a new goddess of magic then he was against Selūne and Shar of recovering their piece of Mystra's essence, therefore meaning that neither goddess should have it, meaning that your quoted statement is impossible. Never in that article it is stated that Shar is actively blocking Mystra's ascension (only that she suppressed the possibility, it is mentioned as a single moment in time, not a constant activity that Shar is doing, since it is not constant then what's stopping Ao from ascending another mortal in another instant? only the fact that there's no more Weave portfolio just like it was when Ao first created the Crystal Sphere) nor is it stated that Ao even wanted to ascend another mortal. It only mentions that the possibility of another god of magic ascending is suppressed; that can perfectly be construed as "the portfolio is destroyed" or "there is no more Mystra because the essence that allowed her to exist went back to its source". Also if Ao really tried to ascend another mortal (as you like to interpret) and Shar was stopping him, then what's stopping Ao from smacking down Shar to stop her from accomplishing his wishes? (he is impervious to attacks even from the combined forces of every other deity so Shar wouldn't even be able to lay a finger on him)
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 02:51 PM	buzzard try this :banghead:. You will get the same result and the feeling may be more pleasurable.:D -They're brothers, you know.
Rauric 02-26-08, 02:52 PM	Not for him, we have great skill at discussing the finer points of things since we learned to talk. buzz hasn't gone in circles enough talking to you. In 3 more pages buzz will see what I mean.;) Good luck.
Rauric 02-26-08, 02:53 PM	-They're brothers, you know. Oh never mind then. :D
Alediran 02-26-08, 02:56 PM	Never in that article it is stated that Shar is actively blocking Mystra's ascension. It only mentions that the possibility of another god of magic ascending is suppressed; that can perfectly be construed as "the portfolio is destroyed" or "there is no more Mystra because the essence that allowed her to exist went back to its source". It tells that Shar is suppressing (synonimous of this meaning of blocking) the ascension of a new (key word, which can perfectly mean, and nobody will deny, that is the meaning they tryed to imply that a new Mystra already exists, she is just kept in a "cage") Goddess of Magic. The contradiction is that the quote you mentioned said that no other Mystra was created. And Shar has no power to supress anything to begin with, since Mystra's essence doesn't belongs neither to Shar nor Selūne anymore and hasn't for a VERY long time. It belongs to Mystra. Because if you apply that logic then Talos could destroy Velsharoon with a thought, since Velsharoon has a piece of Talos' divine essence, just like Tymora and Beshaba should merge again since they are both parts of Tyche. You already know that when you apply one set of rules to something, you need to use it every time the rule applies. If they wanted to tell us that both Selūne and Shar got back their divine essences then the article should have straigthly mentioned that, instead of mentioning Shar suppressing the ascension of the New Mystra, or not mention it at all until the FRCG was released.
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 02:59 PM	-If I recall correctly, in his 'Ask-the-Author' thread, Rich Baker said something about Shar supressing the rebirth of a new Mystra.
Alediran 02-26-08, 03:00 PM	Oh never mind then. :D We have the right to fight.
Alediran 02-26-08, 03:02 PM	-If I recall correctly, in his 'Ask-the-Author' thread, Rich Baker said something about Shar supressing the rebirth of a new Mystra. That why I made a post to Richard Baker telling him that the line I mentioned should be clarified and changed in the article (the wonders of Internet), because reading it with a neutral mind gives you the idea that a new mystra was born and kept in a cage (which wouldn't surprise me at all, keeping her in a hidden place if 4th edition FR became a fiasco).
Rauric 02-26-08, 03:05 PM	Ok then. One last time. It is possible though that by suppressing a new Mystra this could mean convening a Tribunal of gods (like they did with Cyric) just so she could plead her case that a god of just Magic has been more hurtful than helpful to the Realms. Maybe she found some old deity loophole that she had the whole time. Killing Mystra was just the start of her plan, using the loophole or Tribunal was the master plan to stop Mystra for good. Please do not throw AO in my face. Heh, I am offering a very possible situation.
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 03:07 PM	That why I made a post to Richard Baker telling him that the line I mentioned should be clarified and changed in the article (the wonders of Internet), because reading it with a neutral mind gives you the idea that a new mystra was born and kept in a cage (which wouldn't surprise me at all, keeping her in a hidden place if 4th edition FR became a fiasco). -I'm talking about before that. I am fairly someone asked a question on the matter, and he went into more detail concerning the situation. I'd suggest someone go back and look it up, as it applies to the discussion.
Alediran 02-26-08, 03:09 PM	Ok then. One last time. It is possible though that by suppressing a new Mystra this could mean convening a Tribunal of gods (like they did with Cyric) just so she could plead her case that a god of just Magic has been more hurtful than helpful to the Realms. Maybe she found some old deity loophole that she had the whole time. Killing Mystra was just the start of her plan, using the loophole or Tribunal was the master plan to stop Mystra for good. Please do not throw AO in my face. Heh, I am offering a very possible situation. Until they state that as cannon I'll continue to stand for what I already said (I value consistency in everything after all). And the court would never allow Shar to win. Especialy when Selūne, Chauntea, Lathander, Torm, Oghma, Sune and other gods are friends and allies with Mystra, thinking Shar's doings as just another way of destroying everything. Therefore I don't think that the court is either a good way of making that change, especially without AO.
GothicDan 02-26-08, 03:10 PM	Please do not throw AO in my face. Well, Rich already said that AO has nothing to do with it, more or less.
Alediran 02-26-08, 03:14 PM	Well, Rich already said that AO has nothing to do with it, more or less. Which made me take the decision of not even reading the FRCG when it get's out. Maybe AO was a bad idea (I don't think so, but to each his own), but once AO was created you can't deny his existance and purpose, a purpose that runs opposite to what happened in the Spellplague. You can't ignore something because you don't like it or because it screws with something you planned, you have to roll with the punches and try to make the best with what you have.
buzzard 02-26-08, 03:17 PM	It tells that Shar is suppressing (synonimous of this meaning of blocking) While that's true, "to suppress" can also mean: to put an end to the activities of (a person, body of persons, etc.): to suppress the Communist party. to do away with by or as by authority; abolish; stop (a practice, custom, etc.). to keep in or repress (a feeling, smile, groan, etc.). to withhold from disclosure or publication (truth, evidence, a book, names, etc.). to stop or arrest (a flow, hemorrhage, cough, etc.). to vanquish or subdue (a revolt, rebellion, etc.); quell;crush. the ascension of a new (key word, which can perfectly mean, and nobody will deny, that is the meaning they tryed to imply that a new Mystra already exists, she is just kept in a "cage") Goddess of Magic Are you saying that Shar is physically keeping someone locked? And what's stopping Ao from killing Shar and freeing that person? right, nothing since he's invincible. The phrase can be construed as a prospective future. And there's a big hole in your theory, you say that a new Mystra was chosen (conjecture), but that's not a requirement to prevent that person from ascending, you can prevent something before anyone tries to do it. For example, I lock a door. I did it without anyone trying to go in. Or I can lock the door when I see someone trying to enter my house. Where do you get the notion that someone was already chosen to be the new mystra? Shar/Seńūne could have reabsorbed their essence before someone was chosen. . The contradiction is that the quote you mentioned said that no other Mystra was created. Maybe because that's exactly what happens, the existence of another Mystra is not a requisite for the possibility of suppressing her ascension. And Shar has no power to supress anything to begin with, since Mystra's essence doesn't belongs neither to Shar nor Selūne anymore and hasn't for a VERY long time. It belongs to Mystra. Except that Mystra is dead and she can't decide what to do with her divine spark, it is floating around waiting to be picked by anyone (like Selūne does and probably Shar). If we followed your logic then Finder couldn't have absorbed Moander's essence since it was his and he could have taken it with him to the astral plane even when he was already dead. Because if you apply that logic then Talos could destroy Velsharoon with a thought, since Velsharoon has a piece of Talos' divine essence, just like Tymora and Beshaba should merge again since they are both parts of Tyche. Except that Velsharoon is alive and Talos would have to destroy Velsharoon in combat first before his portfolios could be taken by another deity , Mystra was already dead (and no longer entitled to her divine essence) because of Cyric's attack and Lady Magic wasn't able to decide what to do with was used to be hers. As for Tymora and Beshaba, they are their own separate beings with their own divine power no one can force the other to merge and also I don't think anyone of them would like to merge, Tymora would like to have Beshaba's power and retain her alignment and views and viceversa. You already know that when you apply one set of rules to something, you need to use it every time the rule applies. And I haven't broken any logical rule. If they wanted to tell us that both Selūne and Shar got back their divine essences then the article should have straigthly mentioned that, instead of mentioning Shar suppressing the ascension of the New Mystra, or not mention it at all until the FRCG was released. I have already said that Shar recovering her essence is a possibility but Selūne doing it is a fact. And why does it have to be mentioned in the same article, that's like saying that the information about Waterdeep that is valid is the one in the first product detailing the city since we can't expand the setting in future products/articles.
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 03:21 PM	While that's true, "to suppress" can also mean: -While there is nothing incorrect about the statement you made, concerning other definitions, it is my opinion that if the author of the article had meant that Shar had vanquished, put an end to or did away with Mystra in such a straighforward manner, they would have used less ambiguous wording.
Rauric 02-26-08, 03:26 PM	Until they state that as cannon I'll continue to stand for what I already said (I value consistency in everything after all). And the court would never allow Shar to win. Especialy when Selūne, Chauntea, Lathander, Torm, Oghma, Sune and other gods are friends and allies with Mystra, thinking Shar's doings as just another way of destroying everything. Therefore I don't think that the court is either a good way of making that change, especially without AO. Cyric won his case, and many gods if not all of them were against him. Plus you named 6 gods out of about 100. Heh, seriously though even Oghma and Kelemvor were not really on Mystras side at the end of Cyrcis trial. My memory is a bit shot though. Anyway I think the new Mystra bothered the old guard more than they let on. I think it would be easy for Shar to get gods on her side and oppose a new Mystra. My take on it all. Shar and Cyric conspired to have Helm killed and Tyr get in trouble. Now the all-seeing god of guardians could not ever step in to help Mystra and the god of Justice is too busy with his own problems and drama to aid either. Somehow the god of Murder did the deed, and then Shar asked for a tribunal to block a new Mystra (for the time being). Cyric gets locked away as punishment since a new Mystra could not be worked back into the Pantheon. On the other hand Shar might have used some ancient magic trick to actually suppress the new Mystra and AO decided not to intervene. AO apparently will never be used again so this could happen.
buzzard 02-26-08, 03:31 PM	-While there is nothing incorrect about the statement you made, concerning other definitions, it is my opinion that if the author of the article had meant that Shar had vanquished, put an end to or did away with Mystra in such a straighforward manner, they would have used less ambiguous wording. Well, nobody's perfect, people make mistakes and all that jazz. :D In any case no side can say what really happened for sure since there's no clear cut definition.
GothicDan 02-26-08, 03:32 PM	On the other hand Shar might have used some ancient magic trick to actually suppress the new Mystra and AO decided not to intervene Without any evidence of such, it could also be huge ugly hoptoads jumping on her head, keeping her from springing up. Or jealous Wee Jas could be doing it! Or Rich Baker, Captain Universe, Superhero!
Alediran 02-26-08, 03:35 PM	Not at all, it was the big Cheese Monster who ate Mystra, you know, since Halruaa blew and is covered by a Plagueland all the Halruaan cheese became Spellscarred (by LK)
gomeztoo 02-26-08, 03:40 PM	I think people believe too strongly that Ao actually cares. I don't think it does. Ao is more a kind of force than anything else. It really doesn't fit the Realms, but if it has to be there, it is best of it doesn't actually care much about what gods do. If Shar choose to stop a new deity of magic, likely by simply calling back the divine power once hers, I don't think Ao would actively stop that. It interfered once, and that gave a mess. It wouldn't do that habitually imo.
Kenzuki 02-26-08, 03:47 PM	I have to agree with Alediran here and say I like Lord Ao. I feel that he provides a certain balance amongst the deities and ensures they do their jobs and not act so much like spoiled brats who do whatever the heck they want. I feel it's made it better. For example, during the Avatar Crisis I remember that one priestess or druidess of Chautea that was talking to Adon. She basically says that the gods look at their mortal followers as nothing more than coin and shouldn't have to worry about taking care of them. I'm sorry but I don't mean to sound sexist here but my first thought was "What a *****!" I think Adon was right in that argument. If your god doesn't care about you anymore than considering you nothing more than coinage, he or she isn't worthy of your worship. Seeing Sune blanch at the end of Waterdeep when she was told she'd have to serve her followers was priceless by the way.:P So yeah, Lord Ao is cool.
Jiggawha 02-26-08, 04:03 PM	I don't like the idea that gods have jobs, they act like they want to, at least according to their nature, they are a personification of a belief, so if there's balance in the mortal world so is in immortal, not the other way around I would like the idea that Ao is not what it claims, the Time of Troubles was really a threat to its power, maybe Ao is an ancient abberation entity, cause they generally like to impose their order. Ao altered Realmspace, like a parasite, in its own little universe you need worshippers for deific power, other beings like Asmodeus or Anthraxus (Inthricis) are different in such conditions, you also have mortal limitations like the Weave. Maybe the Avatar crisis has been a failed experiment. But not this time, there's something else, mysterious, what Shar and Cyric have done is just a supporting act. Also now that Ao's dead Abeir is back.
Kenzuki 02-26-08, 04:06 PM	And I don't like gods who are just powerful jerks who think they can do whatever they want to without any consequences whatsoever. It did please me very much when Tyr got his eyes gouged out by Ao.
GothicDan 02-26-08, 04:10 PM	I like Gods to be individual entities. Which means you have both jerks, and nice guys.
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 04:15 PM	Well, nobody's perfect, people make mistakes and all that jazz. :D -Correct. Like I said, though... In any case no side can say what really happened for sure since there's no clear cut definition. -Not at this point of time, anyway.
Kenzuki 02-26-08, 04:37 PM	I like Gods to be individual entities. Which means you have both jerks, and nice guys. Agreed. Sune would go on my "jerks" list for how she reacts to the prospect of actually having to DO something for her followers. I still pity what happened to poor Adon. That priestess of Chauntea was a jerk too. Torm would go on my nice guys list since he actually seemed to care about his followers. Even some evil gods can care for their followers you know. Bane even cried when that wizard dude died I think.
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 04:43 PM	I still pity what happened to poor Adon. -Adon's tale would be aptly labeled a tragedy.
Kenzuki 02-26-08, 04:46 PM	-Adon's tale would be aptly labeled a tragedy. Indeed. I think he really got screwed over in that story. Midnight, Cyric and Kelemvor get made into gods while the only character with any real substance ended up dying and being chunked into the wall of the faithless or whatever. Shame on you Kelemvor.
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 05:01 PM	Indeed. I think he really got screwed over in that story. Midnight, Cyric and Kelemvor get made into gods while the only character with any real substance ended up dying and being chunked into the wall of the faithless or whatever. Shame on you Kelemvor. -Well, he did turn his back on his deity in the end. Rules are rules (even rules I don't necessarily agree with, like Faithlessness and False).
Kenzuki 02-26-08, 05:23 PM	-Well, he did turn his back on his deity in the end. Rules are rules (even rules I don't necessarily agree with, like Faithlessness and False). It wasn't really his fault though. I mean Kelemvor broke rules left and right before, couldn't he have done it one more time? I mean this was his freaken friend for pete's sakes!
GothicDan 02-26-08, 07:05 PM	Kelemvor should have been removed due to his rule breaking.
Kenzuki 02-26-08, 07:06 PM	Kelemvor should have been removed due to his rule breaking. And replaced with Jergal.
GothicDan 02-26-08, 07:20 PM	That, we can agree on.
Meldread 02-26-08, 07:59 PM	The debate over Shar suppressing a new Mystra is silly. I believe it was stated by Rich that Shar was simply killing anyone who made the attempt to assume Mystra's former mantle. Ao might be willing to pass on the mantle, but not willing to step in if a candidate cannot live long enough to accept it.
MarkusTay63 02-26-08, 08:04 PM	Gods DO NOT care about their worshippers, they care about the power they provide. Do you 'care' about the batteries you put in your camera? Does Hasbro 'care' about us? Of course not... I'm not an idiot (most of the time). It cares about profits, to please the stockholders, and that is all. If making us happy makes the profits go up, then that is all fine and good, and we are all on the same page. But if running us through a meat-grinder is the best, most efficient way to make profits next year, then they will gladly throw us into a wood chipper. We are not people, we are bars on a graph. To companies, and to gods. Keeping us happy is just a nice 'side effect' of them carrying out their jobs. I have seen many examples in canon of real d__ky priests of 'good' gods just doing whatever they liked, and behaving way outside their clergy's normal dogma. Ascended mortals may still care a bit about us, but that fades with time. Mystryl, Shar, and Selūne ALL started out as gods, so they have little to no emotional baggage linking them to mortals. We are fuel to them, nothing more. Get over Mystra - she really wasn't all that 'great'. :rolleyes:
GothicDan 02-26-08, 08:10 PM	I think Edit
Kenzuki 02-26-08, 08:17 PM	Gods DO NOT care about their worshippers, they care about the power they provide. Do you 'care' about the batteries you put in your camera? Does Hasbro 'care' about us? Of course not... I'm not an idiot (most of the time). It cares about profits, to please the stockholders, and that is all. If making us happy makes the profits go up, then that is all fine and good, and we are all on the same page. But if running us through a meat-grinder is the best, most efficient way to make profits next year, then they will gladly throw us into a wood chipper. We are not people, we are bars on a graph. To companies, and to gods. Keeping us happy is just a nice 'side effect' of them carrying out their jobs. I have seen many examples in canon of real d__ky priests of 'good' gods just doing whatever they liked, and behaving way outside their clergy's normal dogma. Ascended mortals may still care a bit about us, but that fades with time. Mystryl, Shar, and Selūne ALL started out as gods, so they have little to no emotional baggage linking them to mortals. We are fuel to them, nothing more. Get over Mystra - she really wasn't all that 'great'. :rolleyes: Lord Ao demanded that they actually serve their followers from now on. This is what made Sune almost throw up when she heard the news. This is why I liked Ao. I liked the fact that someone put all the gods in their place and told them to get their crap together and start acting like gods instead of fussing children. If I were a deity in the Realms I would always take care of my children and not treat them as stupid batteries for my own selfish needs.
MarkusTay63 02-26-08, 08:19 PM	I think Markus is experiencing that time of the month.Naw... I'm just a realist, and the easiest way to deal with loss is treat it as something fortunate. ;) She's gone, and she ain't comin' back kiddies, so deal with it or keep playing 3e - no one is forcing you to leave FR.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 02-26-08, 08:22 PM	Illmater Cares for me! So "HA" I say :)
GothicDan 02-26-08, 08:25 PM	This is why I liked Ao. I liked the fact that someone put all the gods in their place and told them to get their crap together and start acting like gods instead of fussing children. I really don't understand this, Kenzuki. Do you want every god to be Lawful Good/Lawful Neutral? Why would a god of Murder, or Trickery, or Vanity, etc. all have the same personality?
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 02-26-08, 08:34 PM	why wounld tat make 'em LG LN?
Kenzuki 02-26-08, 08:44 PM	I really don't understand this, Kenzuki. Do you want every god to be Lawful Good/Lawful Neutral? Why would a god of Murder, or Trickery, or Vanity, etc. all have the same personality? No. I want the gods to be smart. In reality don't you think if your god was being a total bastard to you you would I don't know Stop worshipping him and get your powers from another god that DOES take care of you? My point is treating all your worshippers like garbage isn't a sure fire way to build up your base. Picturing Bane as the powerful leader who protects his children from all enemies could be done while still maintaining him as the God of Tyranny.
GothicDan 02-26-08, 10:00 PM	No. I want the gods to be smart. In reality don't you think if your god was being a total bastard to you you would I don't know Stop worshipping him and get your powers from another god that DOES take care of you? Just a question. How much knowledge to you have on how actual polytheistic pantheons worked? Because? Things didn't work like that, historically. The Carthaginians, for example, sacrificed thousands of newborns to Baal Hammon (and possibly Tanit) turning times of drought and starvation. And in the Realms, as has been pointed out, you do not usually worship one god - even a lot of Clerics worship multiple gods. I could really see myself as being a Cleric of Shar, Myrkul, or Talos if I was in FR - and I was raised in the right culture. I adore natural destruction, and the thought of being able to cause it is frankly intoxicating. I used to have terrible nightmares of undead creatures (and still do, at times), and I'd get a certain sense of satisfaction over having complete control over them (as opposed to destroying them). Just examples.
Alediran 02-26-08, 10:06 PM	It doesn't means that can't happen of Faerūn. And the main reason I find AO necesary is because jerk gods would love to kill the nice gods. Without AO a god of pacifism like Eldath would never be able to live when there are many jerk gods who want to destroy her, and they would win, they would kill Eldath without too much difficulties if it weren't for AO's existance. Unless you stop with the direct wars between gods (which I find stupid anyway) and you concentrated on their followers, only then AO would not be needed to keep the balance because it would be checked by Mortals.
Faraer 02-26-08, 10:19 PM	Before Ao was introduced it was evident that the gods weren't able to act in Faerūn as if they were free-willed superpowered people. That could well be because of what a god is: both greater and lesser than mortals. Somewhat like Glorantha's Cosmic Compromise, their identification with cosmic and archetypal forces imprisons and freezes them as free actors. Ao seems to me a clumsy attempt to personify those metaphysical laws.This is why I liked Ao. I liked the fact that someone put all the gods in their place and told them to get their crap together and start acting like gods instead of fussing children.Since the same disastrous novel trilogy made up both that behaviour and its fix, I don't think either has much credibility.Get over Mystra - she really wasn't all that 'great'. :rolleyes:She is, as the Weave -- along with Chauntea -- the essence of the Realms.
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 11:04 PM	Lord Ao demanded that they actually serve their followers from now on. -As I explained to you in another thread, this doesn't mean that they have to care for their mortal worshippers. She is, as the Weave -- along with Chauntea -- the essence of the Realms. -Was. Past tense.
msatran 02-26-08, 11:36 PM	Yeah. Now the essence of the realms is a Editin
sfdragon 02-27-08, 04:14 AM	you know, i saw a post in here somewhere that got me thinking, that maybe not all of the divine essences of shar and selune have gone back to the two goddesses of nothing better to do then play an eternal chess game with each other. what about any essence which possibly stayed with Karsus? bring him in as the new god of magic.....
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 04:36 AM	what about any essence which possibly stayed with Karsus? bring him in as the new god of magic..... -Leave me out of this. I want nothing to do with any of it.
GothicDan 02-27-08, 09:00 AM	For an example of why Ao is not needed, look at real life in the past 60 ish years. There've been wars, but for the most part, the balance of powers keeps each other in check.
WizO_Kayn 02-27-08, 09:00 AM	I've cleaned out a few off topic posts, a few that had inappropriate content and a flame. Just keep in mind when posting to use civility and keep it clean please. Thanks WizO Kayn
Faraer 02-27-08, 09:40 AM	-Was. Past tense.We mean different things here by 'the Realms': you're referring to the latest published setting, I'm talking about (as I usually do) the underlying setting.
Alediran 02-27-08, 10:09 AM	For an example of why Ao is not needed, look at real life in the past 60 ish years. There've been wars, but for the most part, the balance of powers keeps each other in check. I agree with the Real Life example, the difference with FR and why AO is needed is because most gods can't defend themselves from the machinations of the gods that want to destroy them. I'll use again the example of Eldath, the goddess of pacifism. Eldath is a goddess who represents non-violence and peace. We know that a god always acts based on their role, that's why Talos can have any purpose other than destroy, just as Shar that can't have other purpose than bring back everything to it's primordial state, gods suffer from powerful bans that stop them from acting in a certain way that runs contrary to their purpose. If any god wished to blast Eldath into oblivion she would not be able to defend herself, since fighting goes against pacifism. Therefore we need to conclude that Eldath would need somebody else defending her. We also know that defending is a lifetime job, since the enemy only needs to kill you once, while you need to defend something forever. Gods are timeless and can live forever, having infinite time to live means that the possibilities for a goddess like Eldath of surviving all that time tend to zero even when she is being defended by every god that want's her to be alive, while the chances of her attackers tend to infinite. Only a constant like AO can break the tendency so Eldath can live. I would agree that AO is not necesarry per-se, if all gods had equal power among them they would check themselves without needing any controlling figure, but that's not what happens in Forgotten Realms, gods have different ranks and DvR. Somebody like Shar has 100% chance of destroying every god that is in a lower rank (Intermediate and below) than her. That tells us that there is no ballance of power that could stop somebody like Shar from destroying all other gods (like the last cannon example of Mystra's permanent destruction). Therefore the only way that AO would be irrelevant is if WotC gave every god the same power, so they can check each other's power, just like mortal Archmages in Forgotten Realms do and that's why more gods have died in the same time than Archmages. But since WotC continues with their definition of gods of different levels of power and direct attacks between them it's necessary a figure like AO to avoid the total destruction of the gods.
Soltares 02-27-08, 10:18 AM	I think AO is a good plot device because without him the whole war between groups of gods would have much more corpses in the Astral Plane, gods like Eldath could never survive without AO. Without AO there would be anarchy between the gods, they'll constantly fight among them, they'll ignore the mortals in the Material Plane. Yeah, like they do in all the other game settings! Oh wait.
Meldread 02-27-08, 11:20 AM	If any god wished to blast Eldath into oblivion she would not be able to defend herself, since fighting goes against pacifism. Therefore we need to conclude that Eldath would need somebody else defending her. We also know that defending is a lifetime job, since the enemy only needs to kill you once, while you need to defend something forever. Gods are timeless and can live forever, having infinite time to live means that the possibilities for a goddess like Eldath of surviving all that time tend to zero even when she is being defended by every god that wants her to be alive, while the chances of her attackers tend to infinite. Only a constant like AO can break the tendency so Eldath can live. Geeze, where to begin. First, you lack a fundamental understanding of Eldath but I'll explain her later. You have effectively turned her into the whining kid in class, who cries to teacher Ao every time someone starts to pick on her. That isn't Ao's role and that isn't what Eldath is like at all. Your comments seem to be built upon the fact that because Eldath believes in peace and nonviolence that she is in turn weak and pathetic. That is not true. Currently, Eldath is under attack by Malar. She seems to be winning. However, if she were to lose and Malar were to grab Eldath by the throat to choke the life out of her, the sky isn't going to open up. Light isn't going to rain down. Ao isn't going to descend from the heavens and say to Malar, "Let her go. What you are doing isn't nice." Ao might show up but he isn't going to intervene. That is not his place. Finally, as I said earlier you are entirely missing the boat on Eldath. She isn't a deity of pacifism. While it is true that she believes non-violence and peace are ideal, she is not naive enough to believe that they are always practical. Her focus is more on inner peace, stability and happiness. Just take a quick glance at her Dogma: "Peace can only come from within and cannot be taught or imposed. Seek stillness and thereby find peace. Plant trees and green-leafed things and tend such things when they need it, wherever they may be. Nurture and aid, and do not restrict or punish. Work violence only to defend, and slay no thing of the forest except to prevent it from slaying themselves or another under their protection. Swear to take no thinking life except in direst need. Share with all beings the beneficial things that grow in or come from running water that all may know of and praise Eldath." As you can see, her dogma gives her followers clear opportunities to act offensively, even preemptively against certain threats or problems. She is not a pacifistic deity, even though she may hold pacifism up as an ideal.
Alediran 02-27-08, 12:07 PM	I was using her as an example. Change her for any deity of intermediate rank or lower and change Malar for any Greater Deity. Any fight like that is an automatic win for the Greater Deity who wants more power by taking it from the killed god. It would soon become Highlander in FR without the constant of balance named AO. Yeah, like they do in all the other game settings! Oh wait. You don't have gods killing each other every single month.
Meldread 02-27-08, 12:34 PM	You do realize, Alediran, that your comments ignore thousands of years of cannon stating otherwise, correct? There have been periods throughout history where the deities have dusted up against one another, before Ao was even introduced. The Dawn Cataclysm is one such example, where countless deities were slain. I believe more deities died during that time period than are currently dying right now. This was before Ao was even introduced. Look, I know you love Mystra. However, even with Ao there is no way he would step in to defend or stop her death. Cyric killed her. He was the god of murder. It's his job to kill people, and both he and Shar had both the motivation and ability to pull it off. Thus it happened. It's time to get over it and stop clutching at straws, because at this point you're ignoring and twisting cannon to suit your needs. It is not helping your cause at all.
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 12:40 PM	There have been periods throughout history where the deities have dusted up against one another, before Ao was even introduced. The Dawn Cataclysm is one such example, where countless deities were slain. I believe more deities died during that time period than are currently dying right now. This was before Ao was even introduced. -You can't expect to rectify lore that appeared before Ao was introduced with the way we know he supposedly behaves. For example, there was a recurring and long-winded argument between a bunch of posters here concerning Elves, their alignment, history, and the events that created the Dracorage Mythal. While it would be nice, you can't fully rectify 'old' lore and 'new' lore.
Alediran 02-27-08, 12:46 PM	Look, I know you love Mystra. However, even with Ao there is no way he would step in to defend or stop her death. Cyric killed her. He was the god of murder. It's his job to kill people, and both he and Shar had both the motivation and ability to pull it off. Thus it happened. It's time to get over it and stop clutching at straws, because at this point you're ignoring and twisting cannon to suit your needs. It is not helping your cause at all. Gods are not people, they are spiritual entities that rule aspects of the world. Even the notion of Cyric killing Mystra would imply they are not true gods, a true god doesn't has a physical form to be destroyed, Mystra has all the power she needs to avoid being "killed", therefore it's even more illogical that she was killed. And I tell this for any case, if Cyric were the one who died I would be happy because he is out, but I would also question the way he was destroyed and if he was "backstabbed in his own divine domain" I would complain as hard as I'm complaining for Mystra. And I don't like direct wars between gods, they are silly and cheapen the role of deities in the game. That why in my campaign gods can only destroy another god by killing their followers.
GothicDan 02-27-08, 01:00 PM	I agree with the Real Life example, the difference with FR and why AO is needed is because most gods can't defend themselves from the machinations of the gods that want to destroy them. That's actually the point I was making in the modern world. By your analogy, no countries but the super powers would be in existence. Eldath is subservient to Silvanus, one of the more powerful deities in the pantheon. And I don't think Gods should simply be able to "blast each other out of existence," no matter who they are, or the rules.
Meldread 02-27-08, 01:13 PM	Gods are not people, they are spiritual entities that rule aspects of the world. Even the notion of Cyric killing Mystra would imply they are not true gods, a true god doesn't has a physical form to be destroyed, Mystra has all the power she needs to avoid being "killed", therefore it's even more illogical that she was killed. Your logic is flawed. The deities draw upon the concepts of gods by the Greeks and Romans. In that way, they are very much just super powerful immortals who live sope opera lives. You might not like it, and I might not like it, but that does not change them. The existence of Ao and the ascension of mortals (such as Mystra and Cyric) to divinity only underscore that fact. They can be killed. Ed's had his gods killing each other in the past and WotC will have gods killing each other in the future. That's just fact. And I don't like direct wars between gods, they are silly and cheapen the role of deities in the game. That why in my campaign gods can only destroy another god by killing their followers. On this we agree completely. This is the argument that should be made.
Jiggawha 02-27-08, 01:17 PM	I agree with the Real Life example, the difference with FR and why AO is needed is because most gods can't defend themselves from the machinations of the gods that want to destroy them. lmao, this is ridiculous
Alediran 02-27-08, 02:55 PM	Your logic is flawed. The deities draw upon the concepts of gods by the Greeks and Romans. In that way, they are very much just super powerful immortals who live sope opera lives. You might not like it, and I might not like it, but that does not change them. The existence of Ao and the ascension of mortals (such as Mystra and Cyric) to divinity only underscore that fact. They can be killed. Ed's had his gods killing each other in the past and WotC will have gods killing each other in the future. That's just fact. But both the Soap Opera and AO where introduced in the Avatar's Trilogy. They created both the illness and the treatment On this we agree completely. This is the argument that should be made. With the gods having to act that way AO isn't necessary to keep the balance. But I still have him nevertheless, as another speck of dust in the infinite enclosing universes theory which states that inside each one of us is the container of infinite universes, just like whe are part of a universe that could be a part of somebody else.
Alediran 02-27-08, 02:59 PM	That's actually the point I was making in the modern world. By your analogy, no countries but the super powers would be in existence. Eldath is subservient to Silvanus, one of the more powerful deities in the pantheon. We're not that far from it, nuclear winter could still come (the time where no gods are left because they destroyed themselves) and the super powers do want to destroy the smaller countries that are under the umbrela of enemy super powers. It has happened in this millenium, Saddam was attacked and executed (just like my example of Talos attacking Eldath) even when it was part of a bigger block. And I don't think Gods should simply be able to "blast each other out of existence," no matter who they are, or the rules. Neither do I, but I'm going from the point of view of cannon Realms. lmao, this is ridiculous The gods killing each other is ridiculous after all, therefore I have the right to be ridiculous too.
Jiggawha 02-27-08, 03:20 PM	Saddam was attacked and executed (just like my example of Talos attacking Eldath) even when it was part of a bigger block. that would mean that Talos has created Eldath
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 03:40 PM	It has happened in this millenium, Saddam was attacked and executed (just like my example of Talos attacking Eldath) even when it was part of a bigger block. -Hussein's regime in Iraq had no real allies in the Middle East.
Soltares 02-27-08, 03:52 PM	You don't have gods killing each other every single month. Exactly my point. If the writers of every other game setting can have a polytheistic mix of dieties, and *not* have them slaughtering each other in an out-of-control orgy of deicide (without some big overgod playing nanny and holding them apart), then why can't the Realms writers do this? The idea of one or more gods flipping out and killing a bunch others didn't seem to be any more popular in real-world polytheistic faiths either. Psychopaths are kinda rare, actually. Ao is a late addition to the Realms mythology, for those of us who've been banging around since it consisted of a few Dragon articles by some dude named Ed Greenwood, and I don't think Ao's a good fit, let alone 'necessary.' Written competently, as they were by Ed Greenwood, before the Time of Troubles nonsense, the gods were *not* portrayed as a bunch of hyperactive five-year olds in daycare.
Meldread 02-27-08, 04:14 PM	But both the Soap Opera and AO where introduced in the Avatar's Trilogy. They created both the illness and the treatment Again, you're ignoring cannon. Hundreds of deities ascended, disappeared and were slain over the course of history. The ToT is irrelevant compared to something such as the Dawn Cataclysm. Garagos, Murdane, Tyche, Amaunator, Eshowdow, Jazirian, Kalzareinad, Karsus, Kiputytto, Othea, Ra, Valigan Thirdborn, most of the Untheric Pantheon, and hundreds if not thousands more nameless deities have faded away, been slain, or merged with other deities. The Simbul gets her name from a deity that died and merged with Sharess. All of that happened before Ao was introduced into cannon during the Time of Troubles. Gods acting the way that they are currently acting is nothing new if you look at cannon.
Alediran 02-27-08, 04:55 PM	As Lord Karsus said, you can't reconcile lore before AO from lore after AO. And there is no doubt that if AO would have been an original idea of Ed then less infighting would have happened. Not counting that most of those deaths happened when pantheons merged and only one god of X had to stay (exactly what AO enforces anyways) And the point remains that all those deaths never caused the massive destruction that was unleashed in the death of the new Mystra, hell it wouldn't even be possible, since we already know what happened when the older versions of her went kaboom, there was only a Toril-wide DMZ. Therefore we are dealing with an idea shoehorned by WotC to clean the slate, sticked to Mystra's death when that thing shouldn't even be possible, since the Weave never "contained" the essence of magic, it was only a safety device that spellcasters used to avoid the deadly (and that is another thing that makes me laugh at the notion of a Weaveless Faerūn, how spellcasters survived the destructive nature of Raw Magic) effects of taping directly into the Unrefined Raw Magic behind it (unless WotC "forgot" that the Weave wasn't magic but only a device to protect, not impede, spellcasters).
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 05:06 PM	As GothicDan said, you can't reconcile lore before AO from lore after AO... -That was me, but...;)
Alediran 02-27-08, 05:09 PM	-That was me, but...;) Sorry, I'll change it.
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 05:10 PM	-Eh, it doesn't matter. :cool:
Meldread 02-27-08, 06:25 PM	As Lord Karsus said, you can't reconcile lore before AO from lore after AO. Of course you can. He was retconned into the setting, therefore he retroactively became involved with all past disputes, and in order for those disputes to make sense in cannon after his arrival in it, he had to allow them to happen. And there is no doubt that if AO would have been an original idea of Ed then less infighting would have happened. That is a debatable fact. Toril has gone through periods in time where there has been a great deal of deific fighting, and other periods where things have been more or less stable. Just like in the Real World we've gone through periods of relative peace and extended periods of upheaval and war. Right now, even though Ao is canonically part of the setting, deities are still fighting and killing one another off. The setting is going through a period of upheaval at the moment. As an example, I point to the situation with Lolth and the Drow Pantheon and the battle within the Dwarven Pantheon. If you step back and look at cannon as a whole, taking in all of the history, these types of events are not unprecedented.
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 06:31 PM	Of course you can. He was retconned into the setting, therefore he retroactively became involved with all past disputes, and in order for those disputes to make sense in cannon after his arrival in it, he had to allow them to happen. -It doesn't exactly work like that. As I mentioned when I brought the fact up, the retcon of inserting the Dracorage Mythal into the Realms, during the Year of the Rogue Dragons trilogy caused the Elves of the time of act grossly out of character. Before the retcon, the highlighted elements worked. After the retcon, things/actions seemed 'out of wack', and the new lore could not be fully reconciled with the old lore, causing continuity issues/problems that do not make sense when viewed through the lens of one camp (pre-retcon) or the other (post-retcon). -Note that I am not endorsing anybody's ideas. I am simply bringing these facts to light.
Meldread 02-27-08, 07:22 PM	Lord Karsus, I understand what you are saying but this is another situation entirely. I am not anti-retcon if it enhances the setting, and it can be reasonably woven into the existing lore. The simple fact is that Ao's existence means little. As we have seen in both current lore and old Ao has allowed deities to slay other deities. Alediran's argument is flawed because he is stating that Ao would have prevented the death of Mystra. I counter that argument with pointing out all the countless deities Ao did not intervene to save. I could have just as easily pointed to Iyachtu Xvim, Vhaeraun or Kiaransalee. Ao did nothing to save them and there were no calls for him to do so, even though for some those deaths were disappointing. Alediran's problem, from my perspective, is that he fundamentally misunderstands the role of Ao in the setting and it is a common problem. Ao has never stated his role to be anything other than a divine manager, and has never shown any interest in how things are done so long as they are done properly by the rules he has set forth.
GothicDan 02-27-08, 09:45 PM	-That was me, but... It's alright. We Communed with each other and agreed upon the response, anyway.
Alediran 02-27-08, 09:58 PM	Not stoping Mystra's death per-se, bt stopping it if it was going to cause something like the Spellplague. If WotC killed Mystra and raised another then AO's participation is simply raising the new Mystra. The difference, the HUGE and KEY difference in this case was that Mystra's death caused massive destructions to Realmspace and beyond in a way that not even the effects of the rest of the god's deaths combined could do. That's what AO would never allow, the massive destruction brought by the Spellplague, just like a scientific would never allow anything from tampering with their experiments, Realmspace is AO's experiment and something that would alter his experiment would be stopped by him.
Meldread 02-27-08, 11:10 PM	Alediran- Put yourself in the shoes of a deity that has lived at least over a million years. Now, you have every reason to believe that you will live on indefinitely, forever, for trillions upon countless trillions of years into the future. Think about all that you've already seen in your time in existence. Then use your unfathomable intelligence and foresight to perfectly see the many possible futures a trillion billion million years into the future. Once, you've done that you've successfully viewed this entire situation through the eyes of Ao. In other words, this is largely irrelevant for him. A being like Ao does not live day-to-day, year-to-year or even century-to-century. He lives millennia to millennia. All that has ever been written about the Realm's is not even a drop in the bucket for Ao. He is a being so vastly powerful, so cosmically omnipotent, that he foresaw the possibility of the Spellplague at the moment of creation. He foresaw a hundred million ways to prevent it, he saw the six hundred trillion possible outcomes of every single prevention, and for whatever reason, decided not to stop it. When you have that ability then you will also have the ability to question Ao. Until you do, any action or inaction he takes or does not take can only be taken into the context that he wanted it to happen - because he allowed it to happen - because he foresaw something you did not. Canonically speaking, Lord Ao would have also had to allow such events as the Sundering to take place, which could be argued is even worse than the Spellplague. Having lived through that - an event that is at the very least comparable - I dare say Ao is not worried.
Alediran 02-27-08, 11:17 PM	Don't justify the Spellplague that was introduced in the setting without any single reason for it's existance (other than WotC desire to blast everything) to say that AO already foresaw it and decided to do nothing about it. That's not what he would have done if he was real. He set the realms in the primordial time and they have worked more or less the same, until an outside element called WotC decided for financial reasons that FR needed to be blasted into oblivion and recreated with what's left. No scientist would appreciate that somebody else interrupted their carefully monitored experiment in the middle of it. And the Sundering wasn't even nearly as destructive. The Spellplague is the BIGGEST destruction event that the Realms have suffered (all thanks to the almighty developers of WotC)
Meldread 02-27-08, 11:43 PM	Don't justify the Spellplague that was introduced in the setting without any single reason for it's existence (other than WotC desire to blast everything) to say that AO already foresaw it and decided to do nothing about it. Why not? That is exactly your argument in reverse. 'This could have never happened because Ao would not have allowed it.' I've refuted the argument. That's not what he would have done if he was real. How do you know? You cannot possibly fathom the mind of Ao, or know all that he knows. He has the ability to know everything including the outcome of every action. Anything that happens or does not happen is literally at his whim. To say that you know what Ao would have done, or even should have done, is to elevate yourself to a level that you can never understand - even remotely. He set the realms in the primordial time and they have worked more or less the same, until an outside element called WotC decided for financial reasons that FR needed to be blasted into oblivion and recreated with what's left. Your point? Your argument here is not that argument. Your argument here is that Ao would have prevented the Spellplague. No scientist would appreciate that somebody else interrupted their carefully monitored experiment in the middle of it. Setting aside your mischaracterization of Ao (who ever said that he was a scientist and that the Realms were his experiment?), anything that happens or does not happen is at his whim. In order for the Spellplague to happen he had to allow it. You cannot say with any degree of certainty that he would have prevented it. You cannot do that because Ao is so far beyond your understanding as a human being, as to be completely alien and uncomprehendable to you in his cosmic power. Ao obviously foresaw the Spellplague at the moment of creation, every event leading up to it and every possible event after it. For whatever reason he has allowed it to happen. And the Sundering wasn't even nearly as destructive. That is debatable. Hundreds of cities were destroyed, countless lives were lost, and the land was changed forever. Sound familiar?
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 11:51 PM	It's alright. We Communed with each other and agreed upon the response, anyway. -Yeah, that's what I figured. And the Sundering wasn't even nearly as destructive. -It was far more destructive.
MarkusTay63 02-27-08, 11:58 PM	Gods don't kill Gods in RW mythologies? It happens all the time! Or haven't you guys ever heard of 'Ragnarok'? ;) The Vedic religion is full of deaths and rebirths, as are the Pharonic/Mulan, Untheric/Sumerian, Japnaese/Chinese (Kara-Tur), etc, etc... The Greeks probably got along the best, and even they had their deicides. Also, you gotta remember the Golden Rule of godhood - there can be only one. Per portfolio, that is :P FR is all about Interlopers, both mortal and devine, and every time a new batch shows up, the poop hits the fan (like when Talona killed Kiputtyo). The last time Ao showed up, he made everyone forget about him soon after. Doesn't that mean ALL references to him in the past were probably ereased as well? He probably has to knock a few heads in every decade or so - I'd be pretty damned surprised if there really was only were three gods of Magic. Mystra was a VERY humanish goddess, even before humans arose on Toril. How can that be? Don't you think that the Sarrukh would have a Lizard God for Magic, and the Batrachi some shape-shifting slime bucket? The latest Mystra most likely came from a long line of Mystras, and either Ao got sick of bringing her back, or he didn't feel any portfolios were violated by what occurred and therefore did not get involved. He ONLY gets involved when someone oversteps their bounds, and as far as he's concerned, maybe no one did. And I can think of hundreds of very simple ways that Shar could have blocked Mystras rebirth - something as simple as re-absorbing the lost half of her power, and sending the rest into Selūne. Its called a 'retro-active abortion', and if you can creat a god, you can unmake 'em the same way.
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 12:16 AM	Its called a 'retro-active abortion'... -A retroactive abortion...? That's Filicide! ;)
MarkusTay63 02-28-08, 01:00 AM	No.... Thats Mystracide.... and it happens every few years in the Realms... Lately... ;)
Keldar 02-28-08, 03:20 AM	Don't justify the Spellplague that was introduced in the setting without any single reason for it's existance (other than WotC desire to blast everything) to say that AO already foresaw it and decided to do nothing about it. That's not what he would have done if he was real. He set the realms in the primordial time and they have worked more or less the same, until an outside element called WotC decided for financial reasons that FR needed to be blasted into oblivion and recreated with what's left. No scientist would appreciate that somebody else interrupted their carefully monitored experiment in the middle of it. And the Sundering wasn't even nearly as destructive. The Spellplague is the BIGGEST destruction event that the Realms have suffered (all thanks to the almighty developers of WotC) Read the last chapter of the Avatar Trilogy again. Ao has a boss. He reports directly to whomever holds the license for the Realms. ;) As to Ao allowing Mystra to die, and not be replaced, can you think of a better way to insure the long term stability of the Realms? A century of chaos is nothing compared to the benefit of removing the threat of the death of the next goddess of magic causing trouble. Time and time again. Heck, Shar could have supressed a new Mystra's ascention just by pointing that out. :shifty:
Alediran 02-28-08, 06:17 AM	Read the last chapter of the Avatar Trilogy again. Ao has a boss. He reports directly to whomever holds the license for the Realms. ;) Not to who has the license, but to the DM (me for example) As to Ao allowing Mystra to die, and not be replaced, can you think of a better way to insure the long term stability of the Realms? Yes, stop killing Mystra to justify every time the magic rules change, I'm sick of it and only gives MORE power to the evil side (as if they haven't won enough during 3rd edition already) A century of chaos is nothing compared to the benefit of removing the threat of the death of the next goddess of magic causing trouble. Time and time again. On the contrary, AO could simply remove the office of Mystra in an instant without having to cause 100 Years of Chaos, he can do that in an instant and the Mortals wouldn't even know. Heck, Shar could have supressed a new Mystra's ascention just by pointing that out. :shifty: Don't mention Shar again, I had more than enough Shadowcrap installed in FR thanks to WotC love of her, she wasn't NEVER a Goddess of Ebil Magic, that was retconed by the developers who made a bad reasoning about having a Good Aligned Goddess of Magic.
Alediran 02-28-08, 06:18 AM	-It was far more destructive. To the geography we'll se when the new map arives, to people's lives I don't think so, in a 100 years of constant chaos you'll get more deaths than in a "mere moment" that lasted the Sundering. Gods killed in the Sundering are 0
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 06:24 AM	To the geography we'll se when the new map arives, to people's lives I don't think so, in a 100 years of constant chaos you'll get more deaths than in a "mere moment" that lasted the Sundering. Gods killed in the Sundering are 0 -Entire civilizations were destoyed, and thousands, if not tens or hundreds of thousands, or millions were killed. No, the Sundering was much greater in terms of destructive capacity than the Spellplague.
Alediran 02-28-08, 06:27 AM	-Entire civilizations were destoyed, and thousands, if not tens or hundreds of thousands, or millions were killed. No, the Sundering was much greater in terms of destructive capacity than the Spellplague. We'll have to wait for the new CS then. If 3/4 of Faerūn's map are unrecognizable then the Spellplague has even won on the destruction scale.
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 06:27 AM	We'll have to wait for the new CS then. If 3/4 of Faerūn's map are unrecognizable then the Spellplague has even won on the destruction scale. -There's no indication that change on that magnitude will be occuring.
Alediran 02-28-08, 07:42 AM	-There's no indication that change on that magnitude will be occuring. Nobody knows :incog:
buzzard 02-28-08, 07:47 AM	That's not what he would have done if he was real. He set the realms in the primordial time He merely created Selūne and Shar, the existence of Toril (Chauntea) was the will of the twin deities and not that of Ao, he never told the twin deities to do the rest of the work and create a planet/cosmos (remember that at that point Shar didn't mind about having some additional company in the cosmos, it was when Selūne got "greedy" that she was royally ******), so there's no evidence to point that he'd even care about Chauntea existing, he DOES care for deities to tend to their mortal followers as long as they exist, but if they were to be subsumed/destroyed by other deities then that's fine. The difference, the HUGE and KEY difference in this case was that Mystra's death caused massive destructions to Realmspace and beyond in a way that not even the effects of the rest of the god's deaths combined could do. What? massive destruction to Realmspace? It only affected Abeir-Toril (Realmspace is like infinite times bigger than that). And you are overplaying Mystra's importance, the death of Chauntea would be a much more catastrophic event than the death of Mystra since that would mean that the world goes Ka-Boom, the permanent destruction of the portfolios of Kelemvor (like what happens to the Weave) would mean that no one would be able to die (think about an overcrowded world), the death of Lathander would mean no more life being born since he has the birth portfolio. The death of Mystra only means that the bonds that contained raw magic no longer exist, it doesn't even mean that magic no longer exists so her death is for all intents and purposes insignificant and raw magic has been tapped before, the inhabitants of Abeir-Toril have had a century to relearn how to tap magic. That's what AO would never allow, the massive destruction brought by the Spellplague, just like a scientific would never allow anything from tampering with their experiments, Realmspace is AO's experiment and something that would alter his experiment would be stopped by him. The world is now spared from another Mystra ever dying again and affecting mortals like it did with each death, the existence of another Mystra would mean that she could die again and again, causing calamity to the inhabitants of Abeir-Toril, that's she's gone is good for mortals. Maybe Ao, at first, thought that having Mystra was a positive thing but after experimenting the effects that her death could cause he decided that the project was a failure, and he moved on...
Boda 02-28-08, 11:21 AM	Maybe someone can explain this but,...why wasnt azuth and velsharoom destroyed along with savvras? The god of murder is being punish for murder?!Isnt that what he's supossed to do?
Alediran 02-28-08, 11:23 AM	Maybe someone can explain this but,...why wasnt azuth and velsharoom destroyed along with savvras? The god of murder is being punish for murder?!Isnt that what he's supossed to do? No, the God of Murder is supposed to spread murder in the Material Plane, not kill other gods. His punishment is further proof that he went against his purpose when he killed Mystra, he wasn't demoted to mortality again because WotC "wanted to tell more stories of him", which I'll reply, and those who wanted to read more stories of Mystra and the Classic Realms can't have them?
buzzard 02-28-08, 11:55 AM	No, the God of Murder is supposed to spread murder in the Material Plane, not kill other gods. Where is it stated that he can't be true to his murderous nature when dealing with his fellow deities? Even deities that thematically have nothing to do with death, murder an assassination have killed other deities; he actually has more reason than anyone else to kill a deity and if the deities are only supposed to uphold their portfolios on the material plane then Mystra shouldn't teach magic on Dweomerheart since she's diverting her efforts outside the material plane, nor Oghma should impart knowledge in the House of Knowledge nor Shar should keep any secret while not on the material plane. All of the above (among many other examples that could be made) are simply ridiculous. His punishment is further proof that he went against his purpose when he killed Mystra, His punishment wasn't "legal", the circle of greater gods didnt' charge nor judge Cyric for any crime, it was Sune, Tyr and I don't remember who else that decided to imprison him on their own. This is actually the only thing that really bothers me about the 3rd to 4th edition transition, in that Tyr acted unlawfully (and he knows the law better than anyone else). This is an instance where Ao not stepping to b***h-slap Sune, Tyr and "insert other deity here" is plainly wrong. he wasn't demoted to mortality again because WotC "wanted to tell more stories of him", which I'll reply, and those who wanted to read more stories of Mystra and the Classic Realms can't have them? Maybe because the first could imply the exclusion of the second, especially if one of the stories told about Cyric is precisely him killing Mystra. The counter argument of "what about X's, Y's and Z's stories" is childish, you can't expect every single NPC to get to live until the end of their (in)mortality, not everyone is going to die of old age (or don't die at all because they don't age)...
Meldread 02-28-08, 11:56 AM	Alediran- You are growing more and more unstable with each post you make. Wipe the foam from your mouth and calm down. No, the God of Murder is supposed to spread murder in the Material Plane, not kill other gods. His punishment is further proof that he went against his purpose when he killed Mystra, he wasn't demoted to mortality again because WotC "wanted to tell more stories of him"… You are showing a clear lack of understanding of what happened. Cyric's imprisonment had nothing to do with Ao. It was Tyr, Sune and I believe Lathander (though I could be wrong) who imprisoned him within his home plane. Ao as far as we know had nothing to do with it.
Alediran 02-28-08, 11:59 AM	You are showing a clear lack of understanding of what happened. Cyric's imprisonment had nothing to do with Ao. It was Tyr, Sune and I believe Lathander (though I could be wrong) who imprisoned him within his home plane. Ao as far as we know had nothing to do with it. Using your own arguments: If the gods imprisoned Cyric and it wasn't stopped by AO then he didn't cared that Cyric was caged, because if it was the other way around then AO would've aproved of Mystra's murder. Since AO never aproved Mystra's death then he allowed Cyric to be punished by the gods.
Alediran 02-28-08, 12:07 PM	He merely created Selūne and Shar, the existence of Toril (Chauntea) was the will of the twin deities and not that of Ao, he never told the twin deities to do the rest of the work and create a planet/cosmos That creation myth was written before AO was introduced, therefore we can't be sure about AO's true involvement. And even when we take the story you used it was still by the will of AO that Realmspace existed, he created the twins, who then they created the rest of the things. Continuing with the experiment example: a scientist mixes the chemichals he'll use in his new experiment he then leaves it to see what happens and intervenes every time it's needed. (remember that at that point Shar didn't mind about having some additional company in the cosmos, it was when Selūne got "greedy" that she was royally ******) Blame Selūne. Although I can't imagine a Chaotic Good Goddess being greedy while a Neutral Evil Goddess being noble and caring. It was Chauntea who asked for light, a good mother gives her child what they need, and Chauntea needed light (with whom he married when it took the shape of Lathander), the good mother was Selūne for giving Chauntea the Light she needed. Creation (when it's well done) is the most noble of acts, Shar want's to destroy everything (which is considered the worst somebody can do). What? massive destruction to Realmspace? It only affected Abeir-Toril (Realmspace is like infinite times bigger than that). And you are overplaying Mystra's importance, the death of Chauntea would be a much more catastrophic event than the death of Mystra since that would mean that the world goes Ka-Boom, the permanent destruction of the portfolios of Kelemvor (like what happens to the Weave) would mean that no one would be able to die (think about an overcrowded world), the death of Lathander would mean no more life being born since he has the birth portfolio. No, her death caused the rearrangement of the planes themselves. Toril going Ka-Boom isn't as catastrophic as the whole structure of the planes being disintegrated and changed. It's WotC who even at the end made Mystra the most important factor in Realmspace (besides AO) The death of Mystra only means that the bonds that contained raw magic no longer exist, it doesn't even mean that magic no longer exists so her death is for all intents and purposes insignificant and raw magic has been tapped before, the inhabitants of Abeir-Toril have had a century to relearn how to tap magic. The Weave as container of Raw Magic is a retcon introduced by WotC. The Weave since Ed created it until that retcon was simply an interface to safely use the energies of Magic. Which gives me more reason to say that Mystra's death should never have caused the Spellplague. The world is now spared from another Mystra ever dying again and affecting mortals like it did with each death, the existence of another Mystra would mean that she could die again and again, causing calamity to the inhabitants of Abeir-Toril, that's she's gone is good for mortals. She would only die again if the blasted company that would have FR at the next transition lacked any kind of imagination to change the magical rules without killing her. Maybe Ao thought that having Mystra was a positive thing but after experimenting the effects that her death could cause he decided that the project was a failure, and he moved on... It's easier to simply stop any attack made to her if she was positive to have.
buzzard 02-28-08, 12:10 PM	Using your own arguments: If the gods imprisoned Cyric and it wasn't stopped by AO then he didn't cared that Cyric was caged, because if it was the other way around then AO would've aproved of Mystra's murder. Since AO never aproved Mystra's death then he allowed Cyric to be punished by the gods. Except for an important detail, never in a product it was stated that for a deity it is forbidden to kill another god, but we DO know that deities are judged by a circle of greater gods in the case of the Faerūnian pantheon, Cyric's case is actually an error on the author's part or a retcon, the death of Mystra is neither of them.
buzzard 02-28-08, 12:29 PM	That creation myth was written before AO was introduced, therefore we can't be sure about AO's true involvement. Except that the entries on Faiths and Pantheons for Chauntea, Selūne and Shar detail the origins of realmspace while taking Ao into consideration at the same time and never it is stated that he forced Selūne and Shar to create things. In fact if he wanted precisely that then why didn't he create only Selūne to avoid having a destructive force that could have ended everything right then and there? Makes no sense. And even when we take the story you used it was still by the will of AO that Realmspace existed Realmspace yes, Toril not, that was Shar's and Selūne's will. , he created the twins, who then they created the rest of the things. Your point being? Precisely it was the twins who created the rest of things, but they are free willed and conscious, they didn't do anything under Ao's command. Continuing with the experiment example: a scientist mixes the chemichals he'll use in his new experiment he then leaves it to see what happens and intervenes every time it's needed. Precisely, and the ongoing struggles of the deities among themselves is still part of the natural evolution of that original experiment and Mystra has proven to be an utter failure. Blame Selūne. Although I can't imagine a Chaotic Good Goddess being greedy while a Neutral Evil Goddess being noble and caring. It was Chauntea who asked for light, a good mother gives her child what they need, and Chauntea needed light (with whom he married when it took the shape of Lathander), the good mother was Selūne for giving Chauntea the Light she needed. This is such a gross simplification of morals, ethics and metaphysics that it makes me want to puke. Not to mention the childish portrayal of things as if only black and white where the only colors that exist in the realms. Selūne is good so everything she does is good, well, newsflash, the deities aren't portrayed as perfect embodiments of their alignment nor portfolios, take Lathander and the Dawn Cataclysm for example, while trying to do good he actually did bad. Sune is neutral good but even her is somewhat selfish and absent minded. Creation (when it's well done) is the most noble of acts, Shar want's to destroy everything (which is considered the worst somebody can do). Perfect, then I want to create the most powerful weapon of mass destruction ever because creating things is ALWAYS a good thing. I want to have millions of children, even if I can't feed them because creating IS INHERENTLY GOOD! YAY. Oh, and let's not kill viruses or biological diseases, since killing them is TEH EVILZZZ!"!! (well, maybe for the biological organisms it IS after all...) WRONG, the regional ontologies set forth by Husserl (and expanded by Carlos Cossio) teaches that natural objects (such as the act of creation) are not subject to axiology (that is the science that studies value -positively or negatively-), only cultural objects are. No, her death caused the rearrangement of the planes themselves. True I forgot about that but... Toril going Ka-Boom isn't as catastrophic as the whole structure of the planes being disintegrated and changed. It's WotC who even at the end made Mystra the most important factor in Realmspace (besides AO) ...Wrong, the planes rearranged in position only but they survived (except Dweomerheart), the destruction of Toril would mean no more worshipers for deities and the automatic destruction for all of them (plus their godly realms and all the petitioners that live there). THAT is MUCH more catastrophic. The Weave as container of Raw Magic is a retcon introduced by WotC. The Weave since Ed created it until that retcon was simply an interface to safely use the energies of Magic. Wrong, It was Ed who stated that the Weave prevents raw magic from pouring into Toril, I'll be kind enough to look for the answer on Candlekeep.com. And anyways, Ed is really inconsequential since he doesn't have the rights to the setting. Which gives me more reason to say that Mystra's death should never have caused the Spellplague. And even though I'll post the quote please let's not mention him as "canon" or what the realms "should be" any more because if going by him then the Spellplague is nothing compared to what should have happened and that's the death of every living thing (since for him the Weave sustains life), if going by him then the Shadow Weave supports true 10th level spells and a 20th-30th level Wizard like Larloch can DESTROY TEH WORLDZZ!""""!!!!! (:rolleyes:). She would only die again if the blasted company that would have FR at the next transition lacked any kind of imagination to change the magical rules without killing her. Sorry, but like it or not deities officialy have hitpoints and that means that they can be killed regardless of the introduction of a new system of magic, even if Cyric was simply bored he still is very much able to damage her. It's easier to simply stop any attack made to her if she was positive to have. I said that he thought that having Mystra was a positive thing, that was until he was proven wrong of course.
Meldread 02-28-08, 01:48 PM	Using your own arguments: If the gods imprisoned Cyric and it wasn't stopped by AO then he didn't cared that Cyric was caged, because if it was the other way around then AO would've aproved of Mystra's murder. Since AO never aproved Mystra's death then he allowed Cyric to be punished by the gods. I fail to see how that changes anything? Tyr is the god of justice. Cyric murdered Mystra. Tyr and at least two other deities worked together to punish Cyric for his crime. Why wouldn't Ao allow it? That is (or was) Tyr's job.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-28-08, 03:14 PM	Actually, buzzard, Sune is Chaotic Good.;) This is such a gross simplification of morals, ethics and metaphysics that it makes me want to puke. Shall I get you a bucket? Sorry, couldn't help myself (yes, I copied Old Sage, sue me). :p
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 03:51 PM	Nobody knows :incog: -Making a hypothesis based on the evidenced we have thus far...
Alediran 02-28-08, 04:08 PM	-Making a hypothesis based on the evidenced we have thus far... Since the Sundering never blasted the planes (killing millions of planar creatures) I'll bet on the Spellplague as the most devastating catastrophe to this day.
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 04:11 PM	Since the Sundering never blasted the planes (killing millions of planar creatures) I'll bet on the Spellplague as the most devastating catastrophe to this day. -We have no evidence that anything was killed as the Planes metamorphasized. -And, we are talking about Abeir-Toril, not the Planes.
Alediran 02-28-08, 04:14 PM	-We have no evidence that anything was killed as the Planes metamorphasized. -And, we are talking about Abeir-Toril, not the Planes. Remember when they said that only Greater Gods where able to hold their Divine Realms? Anything outside those realms is going to the body count :cool:
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 04:16 PM	Remember when they said that only Greater Gods where able to hold their Divine Realms? Anything outside those realms is going to the body count :cool: -Of course, they aren't located on Abeir-Toril.
Alediran 02-28-08, 04:17 PM	-Of course, they aren't located on Abeir-Toril. They also mentioned Mystra's death as the cause for the rearangement of the planes and all them divine realms crashing down to the Astral.
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 04:20 PM	They also mentioned Mystra's death as the cause for the rearangement of the planes and all them divine realms crashing down to the Astral. -Of course, they aren't located on Abeir-Toril.
Alediran 02-28-08, 04:22 PM	-Of course, they aren't located on Abeir-Toril. Who knows where they are going to be located with all those changes. :eek:
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 04:30 PM	Who knows where they are going to be located with all those changes. :eek: -When they begin deteriorating, we know the Planes are exactly where we last left them. They are where they are.
Boda 02-28-08, 05:27 PM	Still dont get the azuth/velsharrom survival thing. So there's a law that says that gods are suposed to promote their portfolios only on the prime material plane? Funny, it doesnt look like any is following this, since the act of dispensing justice ( by Tyr) is by itself a breach to that rule. So far my take on pantheons is that divines are a league of their one, having bad guys and good guys. If gods fight each other, then why cant cyric murder other divines? The real question is should divines personaly fight each other. Time and again i'm proven right on my opinion over the absolute lameless of ToT.
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 05:47 PM	Still dont get the azuth/velsharrom survival thing. -Odds are, there is more to the story. So there's a law that says that gods are suposed to promote their portfolios only on the prime material plane? -No. A deity is supposed to promote his/her/its portfolio anywhere he/she/it has influence.
buzzard 02-28-08, 06:22 PM	Actually, buzzard, Sune is Chaotic Good.;) Right, my mistake, thanks for the clarification. Shall I get you a bucket? Yes, please :P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-28-08, 06:36 PM	Right, my mistake, thanks for the clarification. Welcome.:) Yes, please :P *discreetly brings over a bucket for buzzard...*
Kenzuki 02-28-08, 08:55 PM	I always thought Azuth was a pointless and bland deity to begin with. He's basically Mystra-Lite anyway. DM:Mystra is the Goddess of Magic, Spells and the Weave so there! Player 1: AHA but Azuth is the God of those who CAST magic! DM:......
Alediran 02-29-08, 06:11 AM	Azuth is usualy favored by Wizards of a Lawfull nature.
Kenzuki 02-29-08, 07:49 AM	Azuth is usualy favored by Wizards of a Lawfull nature. *yawn* You don't really need him though. If you still had Mystra you wouldn't need him or Savras. Or Velsharoon really unless you wanted an evil magic god of death or whatever. But I can understand people who like having a god for this and a god for that or just plain dig Azuth. I mean heck, didn't the Romans have a God of Beans?
Alediran 02-29-08, 08:06 AM	Kenzuki. It's called flavor and options. Not all characters would use Mystra as patron, there are some who choose Azuth or Savras or Velsharoon instead of Mystra. Just as many elven characters choose one of the Seldarine who is not Corellon (why HAVE Seldarines when Corellon is the head?). Alediran is a follower of Aerdrie Faenya for example. Just as YOU find him boring other find him useful, fun, a good patron god for their character, etc. You can't force the cannon setting to fit only YOUR tastes when there are thousands of people who will disagree with you. What you'll say if I told you I find boring a god you like?
Boda 02-29-08, 09:02 AM	-No. A deity is supposed to promote his/her/its portfolio anywhere he/she/it has influence. So cyric didnt actually comitted any crime. It like he's the only one with a license to kill. So tyr is the one breaking the law them? By forcing a punishment one someone that isnt guilty of anything? Well, since the Helm-tyr thing, the guy has been hitting is head on everything.
GothicDan 02-29-08, 09:15 AM	You don't really need him though. Artistically, what DO you need? Nothing. I'm sure you'd be happy with a few stones and sticks, but the rest of us are a little more complex than that.
GothicDan 02-29-08, 09:16 AM	So cyric didnt actually comitted any crime. It like he's the only one with a license to kill. So tyr is the one breaking the law them? By forcing a punishment one someone that isnt guilty of anything? Well, since the Helm-tyr thing, the guy has been hitting is head on everything. Note that since WotC also made the plot to BEGIN with, they're also 'getting rid' of Tyr. It's great to make people guilty when you write their history.
Lord Karsus 02-29-08, 12:54 PM	So cyric didnt actually comitted any crime. It like he's the only one with a license to kill. -Not particularly, no. So tyr is the one breaking the law them? By forcing a punishment one someone that isnt guilty of anything? -But, Tyr is enforcing his portfolio as well- justice. Regardless of if he is justified in doing so or not, he did murder her.
Charles Phipps 02-29-08, 03:29 PM	Uhhhh guys, when did Ao become the School Teacher? Does he even care about deities murdering one another? He's the guy who PROMOTES the psychopaths, let's not forget. Here's a better question. What WOULD Ao *bother* to intervene in.
Alediran 02-29-08, 03:33 PM	Anything that tampered with his experiment called Realmspace, a great example of this would be the Spellplague.
Charles Phipps 02-29-08, 03:42 PM	Why would he care? So some humans died, big deal. He didn't interfere with the Fall of Netheril. If magic disappears, it's not like the Realms goes with it.
Alediran 02-29-08, 04:05 PM	Some humans died? Let's begin: Big swaths of Abeir-Toril are plane shifted/obliterated, with everybody in the area. The Planes themselves fell in pieces and many gods died with them, along any Sod who wasn't near a Greater God. And I'm forgetting other things.
Meldread 02-29-08, 05:35 PM	Alediran- The only canonical change to the planes is Mystra's plane being destroyed. The planes themselves are being retconned into the setting. In other words, there never was a Great Tree, just like before it there never was a Great Wheel. They retconned the Great Tree in and then Retconned it out to replace it with the current incarnation. Therefore the only changes that were made had to do with Abeir and Toril.
Alediran 02-29-08, 05:41 PM	No, the changes on the planes are going to actually have an in character description of why they changed. I heard that last year, it was one of the first things we learned after GHotR. That because of Mystra's death the planes themselves where going to be changed. Remember the "only Greater Gods able to hold their divine domains in relative stability"? That was the first thing they announced about that.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-29-08, 06:10 PM	Alediran- The only canonical change to the planes is Mystra's plane being destroyed. The planes themselves are being retconned into the setting. In other words, there never was a Great Tree, just like before it there never was a Great Wheel. They retconned the Great Tree in and then Retconned it out to replace it with the current incarnation. Therefore the only changes that were made had to do with Abeir and Toril. Actually, one of the recent Dragon articles basically says straight out that the planes do change thanks to the Spellplague--the example I recall was the Abyss "falling through" the Elemental Chaos to the bottom...making it a copy of the how the Abyss was presented in Worlds and Monsters.
Meldread 02-29-08, 06:23 PM	That's stupid because they also said that things like the Blood War were being retconned out. They can't do both and have it make any sense. Look at the history they are using for the Planes that involve such beings as Tharizdun - that can't just be slipped into cannon because of the Spellplague. They have to retcon that in for it to make any sense at all.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-29-08, 06:25 PM	Stupid or not, the article says what it says.:)
Kenzuki 02-29-08, 06:45 PM	I'm just saying Azuth was Mystra-Lite is all.
Charles Phipps 02-29-08, 07:35 PM	The Blood War only ceases to exist in MAIN D&D. It still exists in FR.
Charles Phipps 02-29-08, 07:36 PM	Some humans died? Let's begin: Big swaths of Abeir-Toril are plane shifted/obliterated, with everybody in the area. The Planes themselves fell in pieces and many gods died with them, along any Sod who wasn't near a Greater God. And I'm forgetting other things. Again, Ao doesn't care he didn't interfere with the Fall of Netheril or the Dawn Cataclysm. If Lathander DESTROYED EVERY DEITY BUT HIMSELF he wouldn't interfere. Hell, he probably wouldn't interfere if someone DID destroy the Realms, so long as that's their job.
Daenaan 02-29-08, 07:38 PM	One wonders if all the inevitables were destroyed, or if some off-plane managed to survive. Alediran- The only canonical change to the planes is Mystra's plane being destroyed. The planes themselves are being retconned into the setting. In other words, there never was a Great Tree, just like before it there never was a Great Wheel. They retconned the Great Tree in and then Retconned it out to replace it with the current incarnation. Therefore the only changes that were made had to do with Abeir and Toril.
Kenzuki 02-29-08, 08:51 PM	Maybe Ao wanted the Spellplague to happen? Maybe he wanted to change things around a little bit. I mean hell, if worse comes to worse he could just remake everything if he doesn't like it. He's the God of Realmspace, the Ultimate Deity. He can do whatever he wanted to do. Maybe he just thought "So you stupid little godlings want to be stupid and kill yourselves huh? Fine then, have at it." Then he goes and meditates for a while.
GothicDan 02-29-08, 09:15 PM	I'm just saying Azuth was Mystra-Lite is all. Just how high are you, kiddo?
Lord Karsus 02-29-08, 09:58 PM	He's the God of Realmspace, the Ultimate Deity. -Ao is not a deity.
ShadezofDis 03-05-08, 12:20 PM	Personally I run with the theory that AO is the guardian of Realmspace. In other words, he's the one who makes sure the Realms material plane stays a material plane. I also run with the idea that the whole point of the ToT was to get the Gods out of town so he could shift the Realms from where they were (Great Wheel) further from the outer planes (Great Tree, which, IMT (in my theory) forced the outer planes to send "avatar planes" to the Great Tree in order to have any effect in the Realms at all, which is why Mystra rolled through Hell like it was nothin, even though Devils are supposed to be an aspect of all reality and not just a Goddess on a pretty nifty little ball) which would insulate the Realms from outside influence, which was getting to be too much. With the move done AO then had a glut of "God power" on his hands. In other words, there was too much internal force and not enough external force. Thus he took no part when the Gods when crazy and did all that amazingly stupid stuff (Well, Tyr/Helm is amazingly stupid, the assassination of Mystra I can live with, but the Tyr/Helm thing is just stupid, stupid beyond belief) and he doesn't give a damn about the Spellplague. AO's only concern, IMO, is keeping the Realms intact as a Prime Material plane. This is part of a greater theory in which the conflicts of the outer planes are a driving force of reality and AO and his ilk are just concerned with keeping reality going. I haven't detailed this theory much so there are probably some huge holes, but I don't mind if you point them out, in fact I'd like that. ;)
Charles Phipps 03-05-08, 02:29 PM	My version is close but different. Ao is there to guard mortal Free will and what mortals make of Abeir-Toril. I.e. Gods cannot stop mortals from destroying the world and they cannot totally enslave their wills. Yet humans could voluntarilly give up their wills to the gods.
ShadezofDis 03-05-08, 02:39 PM	My version is close but different. Ao is there to guard mortal Free will and what mortals make of Abeir-Toril. I.e. Gods cannot stop mortals from destroying the world and they cannot totally enslave their wills. Yet humans could voluntarilly give up their wills to the gods. Not a bad take on it, just doesn't really jive with me. Or, rather, my overall Cosmic theory doesn't jive with it. ;) You know, one thing I do like about lore that seems to contradict itself is that it's awesome fodder for my imagination. I wouldn't even have a Cosmic theory if it weren't for the Great Tree/Great Wheel thing. ;)
Charles Phipps 03-05-08, 03:41 PM	Yeah, my version is based on Ao's speech at the end of the Time of Troubles modules. Basically, blasting deities for abusing their followers and sending them to commit human sacrifice of their others while singing useless praises when they should be encouraging their development. But of course, my version of Ao is actually asleep except when roused. I.e. Ao was actually totally inactive for most of Toril's history until someone roused him by stealing the Tablets of Fate.
ShadezofDis 03-05-08, 03:47 PM	Yeah, my version is based on Ao's speech at the end of the Time of Troubles modules. Basically, blasting deities for abusing their followers and sending them to commit human sacrifice of their others while singing useless praises when they should be encouraging their development. But of course, my version of Ao is actually asleep except when roused. I.e. Ao was actually totally inactive for most of Toril's history until someone roused him by stealing the Tablets of Fate. Well, my version has that in it, the whole basis of the ToT in my FR was to get the Gods out and create a smoke screen. Thus the chewing out of the gods isn't out of line. I never really looked at the modules though, read the series (long ago) but never the modules. Perhaps I'll give that a go sometime soon.
Hailic 03-05-08, 06:59 PM	I am thinking since I don't like AO anyway. I am going to say he got killed by an elder evil while lording over eberron (killing off two birds with one stone) and that tiped off a gods war... If the realms must change I want to make a better story than a mix up of gods dating. :rant: :rofl:
Zsych 03-10-08, 02:10 AM	We don't really know Ao's objectives so we can't say what he wants. In the days of the Sarrukh for example, Toril must have been a very different place, with different gods, and Ao didn't change it suddenly to what it was lately. It may be that his objective for the Realms will occur as a natural consequence of periodically nudged events, in some 10000000 years.