Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arravis 01-20-05, 03:39 PM	An event took place in my FR campaign world, and I'd like to get your opinions on the fallout of such events. A 24th level wizard cast the spell "Apocalypse from the Sky" (from the Book of Vile Darkness) over Thay. At that level the spell has a 240 mile radius and caused 10d6 points of sonic damage. We'll assume it did average damage, 30. Since it's sonic, it ignores hardness of objects, buildings, etc. The spell was cast late at night and most of the common populace would be asleep. What do you guys think the overall effect of this would be? Would there be enough infrastructure left for Zulkirs to still remain in control? How would the refugee situation be? How would neighboring countries react? Well, any suggestions are welcome! Thanks guys!
The Simbul 01-20-05, 06:53 PM	IMO the Book of Exalted Deeds and Book of Vile Darkness are far from balanced game material, and this specific spell is just one example. Regardless of the costs involved in casting it, effectively having a fireball with a 10mile/level radius is insane. Both books and are meant to used in conjunction with one and another in a campaign to ensure that there is some counteracting forces or elements in the campaign to interdict the use of such powers. Thus the first and foremost means of preventing this from happening is having Exalted Heroes confront the villain and prevent this from occuring. Now onto the technicalities; 1) The spell requires an artifact as a material component. Artifacts do not grow on trees, and virtually all artifacts are of at least some value or importance to one powerful being or another. The caster of the apolcaylps spell may very well incur the wrath of a Deity, a Celestial Paragon, Archdevil, Elder Dragon, or other unique being whom would seek to prevent the artifacts destruction (if the artifact is important enough to them, they would have means of being warned if some harm would come to it). 2) The spell is a spell of mass destruction. With one action you can effectively slay millions of beings, many of whom are innocents (75% percent of Thay's population are slaves), are favored by numerous Gods (there are a fair number of temples in Thay), and who are a principle source for much of the economy of the Inner Sea regions (all those enclaves are going to be short in wares to say the least as this spell is cast). The casting of this spell will trigger the portfolio senses of many Deities, amoung whom would include; Azuth (senses ALL spells affecting 500+ people, including through the Shadow Weave) Bane (senses all strife) Chauntea (senses anything that happens in a tilled field; much of the plateau of Thay is farmlands) Cyric (senses any nonaccidental death) Helm (senses anyone who needs protection) Ilmater (senses any suffering) Kelemvor (senses any death) Kossuth (I assume 10d6 sonic damage will break a few oil-lanterns, personally I would pray he doesnt become aware of this, given that Thay is the backbone of his clergy) Mystra (senses any spell cast through the Weave, and can stop it without sending an avatar) Etc, etc, etc many of these gods are greater deities, and will be aware of these occurences upwards of 6 months before the spell is cast. While they may not necessarily send an avatar to come kill the transgressor (although Bane, Kossuth, or others worshipped there might) they can send their agents and warn their clergy to stop it from occuring. If the caster draws upon the Weave you can rest assured Mystra will remove their ability to do so, or otherwise simply inform the Zulkirs of the casting of this spell (and give them magic they would need to repel it) through visions. If the caster draws upon the Shadow Weave it may be more viable, although I dont think Shar would very much appreciate having her temples in Thay destroyed either. 3) Given that Thay is a magocracy, a wealthy country, and one constantly at war, one would expect the vast majority of their important structures to be fortified with magic, including energy resistance and the like. I dont think any of the major buildings of importance will be grossly damaged, while slaves and peasants will be killed in the thousands. Most likely any masses of slaves that are killed will be turned into undead until a more equitable solution can be found. On a plus side I do think it would be funny, but there are far more subtle ways of causing strife and civil conflict in Thay.
ClobberinTime 01-20-05, 07:58 PM	Wow I didn't see that one in BoVD. I agree with the Simbul- 1, I would switch the artifact to a major artifact, and make there be special requirements in the spell, like you have to include such and such components etc....i.e. destroy the artifact in the normal way, otherwise no artifact is safe. 2, Like he said Mystra actually kind of likes the RWs. They have made a whole lotta magic over the years, Its likely Szass Tamm or one or all of a the chosen would have a premonition about this event (divinely inspired) and really come after your PCs, so basically the point is I wouldn't let them do it unless they had gone through one hell of a fight, but hey they might win?
BrianCritchley 01-20-05, 08:15 PM	indeed. h eck szass tam might try and DISPELL it. he's epic elvel after all..
Xavier_of_Cormyr 01-20-05, 08:38 PM	i'm curious as to what artifact this wizard in your campaign corrupted, and if the wizard even survived the ability loss (the cost of casting a corrupt spell) as for your Q... the spell is true to its name. APOCALYPSE! :evillaugh What area of Thay was the spell cast? If it was sonic damage, most weak structures would be shattered, and any beings caught out in the open would most likely be killed. Not much to it really... death & destruction in a 240 mile area. The spell is Uber powerful, yes. I think the idea with this spell is that the caster must first find himself an artifact, with a "good" alignment & find a way to corrupt it. Sounds easy, right? :noway: then there the idea of the caster not surviving. 4d6 wisdom drain & 3d6 constitution drain just for casting it, not to mention an addition 1d3 wisdom drain per day its memorized prior to it's 1 day casting time, AND the damage from the instantaneous effect of the spell itself...... my point, the caster should be dead too! And to continue my rant, :rant: leading up to the actual casting of this spell should have attracted the attention of MANY different "players"- gods & their clergy, powerful arcane spellcasters, outer plannar beings, you get the point. Some one should have seen this Uber evil, artifact corrupting, death from above spell coming. If the wizard could do all prepare the spell, cast it w/o interruption & survive the backlash, well then.... DAMN! :surrender
mastroyo 01-20-05, 09:02 PM	Missing the point guys. The event already TOOK place right? So, whatever reason for it, is extra. Well, if 30 point damage could break houses, they'd fall off. If it could break walls of stone, then every biulding in thay would be on the floor. If they did, at least a 90% of the population would be dead. I think that neighboor countries would send scouts to see the damage, then if it's really big, send armies to conquer it. And to get whatever magic they can find in it. Maybe Mulhorand or Aglarond, the Pirate Islands perhaps, betraing the thavians. I don't know really the state of 3rd edition FR politics, so I think for that you should post it somewhere else. But in terms of destruction, well, check out some real-time natural disasters and start from there. LAs earthquake, Turkey has suffered some too, and with less technology than the US. Think about Hiroshima and Nagasaky....Look at the caos in southeast asia, imagine what it could do to lakes, to soil (like a dust cloud or something), imagine all animal life dead. IMO Thay would become a wasteland for a couple of decades, but with many interesting places to visit (and raid) :D
The Simbul 01-20-05, 09:58 PM	Zulkir Yaphyl presumably would have the means to forsee something like this devastating Thay, but in terms of a post-disaster event, she would focus all of her talents on finding the caster, and teaming up with the other Zulkirs to make him pay for his transgressions. Regardless I still dont think the Gods would allow something like this to happen, regardless of the location or what they may think of its inhabitants. Whats to stop someone from casting this spell over the Silver Marches, or Cormyr, or the Enclave of Shade? Also, post Complete Arcane, its worth noting that most spells that deal elemental damage, the Sonic versions do one die rank less (d4 instead of d6 for sonic orb). Also if the spell is a burst or emanation it can be blocked from affecting certain areas, or even those within structures or the cover of something else.
Meta_FR_DM 01-21-05, 04:55 PM	Hey Arravis. As an experienced Realms DM, I can tell you what the Gods, mighty Zulkiirs, etc.. will or will not do all depends on you the DM; they and their abilities are secondary to your own plans after all. Not to mention the fact that Karsus did cast his spell.... Allow me thus to not miss the point and share my thoughts on your scenario: First, I think it's cool. Those Thayans had it coming. ;) Second, I agree that most any commoner (slave, servant, et. al.) as well as all animals caught out in the open will be slain. It’s also fair to say that 30 points of hardness-ignoring sonic damage will “travel” like a lightening bolt, such that once it’s destroyed a roof it will continue downward into the upper rooms of a multi-story structure and flattening all in ground based structures, as well as passing through spaces more than 1’ square and even into basements or cellars wherever they exist. Third, most fortified structures will suffer superficial damage. Given that many Zulkiirs keep such structures for their servants, guards, beasts and as secondary or tertiary abodes, your Thay will be left with virtually all of its Wizardly leaders and their forces intact. What your Thay will not have is the means to function economically, as the backbone of that system (slaves) will have been wiped out. I’d guess the extra-Thayan enclaves that exist throughout Faerûn will either be disbanded or place under immense strain to turn a profit as Thay looks for means to recover. As for invasion; well that’s tricky. I’m sure there’s more than one nation or city state that would like to see Thay put to heel, but I don’t see Aglarond doing it, nor do I see Mulhorand giving it a try as they just completed a war and might face stiff resistance from Aglarond if they tried. Consider also the heart of Thay –its many mages– would be alive and whipped up into a frenzy by their Zulkiir masters to find the being responsible for casting Apocalypse. For this reason I don’t see the Rashemi attacking; but I do see them laughing at their neighbors’ misfortune, mourning their enslaved blood-kinsman lost to the Apocalypse and very quietly but very busily working hard to find out who or what made the Apocalypse happen. After all, it would be foolish to think something cast once could not be cast again. So I think the Simbul would look to find the cause as well, by her own personal efforts and those of her agents and Harper allies. The one thing you haven’t mentioned is “why” the Apocalypse was cast. Are you going to build a campaign in Thay around the aftermath? Or are you a player looking to outsmart your DM? The more we know, the more we can help. Dave
BrianCritchley 01-22-05, 02:45 AM	also if thay looses it's slave workers. what are they gonna do? well the same thing anyone does when they aree low on a resource... attempt to obtain it via any means possiable. it's very likely for example that cities with a thayen enclave will have a "s udden rash of kidnappings" thay may also go to war with a neighbor, not to gain new territory, but rather to gain captive slaves.
bradjob 01-22-05, 12:40 PM	also if thay looses it's slave workers. what are they gonna do? well the same thing anyone does when they aree low on a resource... attempt to obtain it via any means possiable. it's very likely for example that cities with a thayen enclave will have a "s udden rash of kidnappings" thay may also go to war with a neighbor, not to gain new territory, but rather to gain captive slaves. I think in this situlation the easiest way to get more slaves would be to recycle the old ones. This is an evil, magic society. Every Red Wizard able would probably start animating as much dead as possible, for labor and defense. Since the spell has been cast, I honestly thing the guy who cast it should be writting a will. He might have broken Thay, but Thay would still be able (and eager) to break him.
Lord Zeb 01-24-05, 07:45 AM	This begs the question: how much XP does the 24th level wizard get for killing 90% of the Thayan population and effectively wrecking one of the powerful nations of Faerun? :devil:
Xavier_of_Cormyr 01-24-05, 08:49 AM	well, that's a total DM choice. Standard XP tables just don't cut it at this point. Besides XP, I'd dish out some good & bad "extras"... gain a bonus vile feat (for being so wicked) gain a cult like group of followers be marked for elimination by good organizations & or gods
Power of the Horde 01-24-05, 08:59 AM	This begs the question: how much XP does the 24th level wizard get for killing 90% of the Thayan population If there weren't any CR 17+ creatures among them, nothing. If there were, he might still get nothing for these if they weren't an obstacle to him. In any case, he likely won't get very much for a character of his level. and effectively wrecking one of the powerful nations of Faerun? :devil: That could be a mission goal reward, if his DM uses these and he had an actual reason to destroy Thay. It might be rather high, too. Like, gain an entire level (plus change) high.
Arravis 01-24-05, 04:52 PM	I’ve been getting a lot of requests for details on the events surrounding this event. Where to begin… I will begin with the statement that I’m not an expert on the Forgotten Realms. I’ve played them since they first came out in that lovely grey box, but I’m not a guru or any such thing. I try to run as accurate of a campaign as I can though, but I realize that it is my gaming group’s game world, and not Ed Greenwood’s anymore. I think that’s what he intended anyway, to see what other people would do with his ideas and tales. That’s why I believe, that essentially, there is no such thing as a “wrong” FR campaign. Everyone makes it their own, and that’s what makes it great. This is especially true in a campaign where the entire group plays and DM’s (each with their own knowledge and interpretation of the Realms). We all take turns at the DM’s chairs, but if there was a “main” DM, I suppose that would be me. Anyway, let’s move along… I guess it all starts when we started a new FR campaign (Run in 3rd edition, but using 2nd edition FR books and upgrading them to 3rd as they came out). My character was a Mulhorandi wizard by the name of Sharantyr (no relation to the ranger). I’ll spare you the long and sad story of Sharantyr’s family; suffice it to say that vengeance against Thayans became a family obsession. This was blessed by Horus-Re himself (before the Times of Trouble), since he still remembers well his once role as god of vengeance. Horus-re gave his family the ability (and a nearly tactile push) to track all those that were responsible for their family’s dark fate. It was part blessing, part curse. The family hobby had a high price to pay, the wiping out of most of the able-bodied, except for the youngest brother, Sharantyr. The campaign took over two years of real-life time and spanned seven years or so of game time. It was a role-play heavy campaign full of intrigue, ethical dilemmas, and all manner of events. Over that time Sharantyr went from being lawful neutral (nearly lawful good), to lawful evil, to finally neutral evil. He went from being a fervent follower of Horus-Re, to seeing the gods nearly as an enemy and vengeance feeling hollow. The events that had happened during that time shook the foundations of everyone’s ideas of right and wrong, some turning to evil, some turning to good. Enemies became allies, and ally’s enemies. Many close to the group died, and adventuring (and revenge for Sharantyr) begun to loose it’s splendor as the reality of it sunk in. Nothing was clear and the only thing that seemed to have any real foundation were the feelings the characters felt for each other. In that campaign was that our characters came across a powerful and dark tome holding several spells from the Book of Vile Darkness, Apocalypse from the Sky being one of them (this was when the BoVD first came out). Sharantyr took the tome, hiding it among his books. Quite sometime after that event, the party was journeying in the Nine Hells on a quest to save a friend who had become trapped there. On Avernus they came across a small devil-defended fortress that had been recently damaged in the blood-war. Only a small garrison was left to defend it and the party defeated them and searched the place. There they found what the keep was holding, a powerful artifact of good. The sword of some long lost paladin that had perhaps fallen in that very spot, and the keep was built around it to keep the forces of good from reclaiming it. The power of hell had not yet turned the blade to evil, but it was on that razor’s edge change. Knowing exactly what was needed for the Apocalypse spell, and a kernel of an idea having germinated, Sharantyr asked for the blade. No one in the group could use the blade, and since the wizard never asked for items they conceded after much discussion. Were in-character lies given and promises made? When have they not been in the search for power? During this entire game campaign, my wife had kept an in-character journal/diary of all the events therein (the thing is huge, let me tell you). During the times that several in-game months would pass between games and my wife would write detailed accounts of events that transpired (all approved by the gaming group). So in the end the journal encompassed much more then what was done at the gaming table. When the campaign finally retired Sharantyr had found love and married (to my wife’s character). He had also found a tiny measure of wisdom and had just briefly begun down the road that might one day lead him to redemption. Though the campaign was finished, over the next year my wife kept writing about what happened to Sharantyr and her character, Runa. She wrote of their life together, the children they had, and all new events. It was great stuff, spawning great characters in the children of the two ex-PC’s. My wife would often consult with me on how Sharantyr would react, so her stories could be as “accurate” as possible. Over time she gained a keen understanding of Sharantyr’s personality and knew his reactions without even needing to ask. One of the events that occurred in her stories is that Runa, while she was pregnant with their first child, was attacked by Thayan assassins. She barely survived the attack and nearly lost the child. She asked me how would Sharantyr react to this? I thought long on this, I considered what really drove the wizard to action, what burned inside of him. I thought of the weight of being the last of his family line, the weight of two generations seeking vengeance and never having attained it. I thought of the love he had for his wife and unborn child. I thought of the curse and blessing the child would be born with, to seek vengeance against the Thayans. Sharantyr’s father had doomed his bloodline with Horus-Re’s blessing to always seek revenge, regardless of their own desires. It was then that I told her of the scroll the wizard had made (why memorize it, when you can cast it from a scroll) and why he had wanted the sword. I told her of the plan Sharantyr had long ago, but had decided against. I told her that after such an event… I saw the fire burning inside him and driving him to such an act. The stage was set; all he needed was a few final steps. Sharantyr made the last of the dark preparations to the blade and went to Thaymount, and flew high above it. He had already prepared a series of contingencies, conditional spells, potions and other protections before casting that horrible spell. Once cast a battle ensued with Tam himself, which didn’t last long. Sharantyr fled crippled from the battle and barely escaped with his life. He went directly to the Pharaoh in Skuld, the representative of Horus-Re on Faerun. Barely standing from his wounds he explained that he had extracted revenge on Thay in a way that generations of his family never could. Before he collapsed he asked to be free of the “blessing” that his blood and family had. Wordlessly, the request was granted. In the end Sharantyr’s family had to flee Aber-Toril, not only to escape the Thayans but the Harpers and all who thought that no one person should have such a spell. They fled to Union, where Sharantyr destroyed all traces of that spell. Anyway, when a new group (different players from those in the original campaign) was ready to tackle the Forgotten Realms, we had the option of setting it in the standard realms, or in the same FR that the previous campaign had taken place in. We had such a rich pool of interesting NPCs, events, and stories that it seemed like a waste not to use them. So we talked to group and they all agreed eagerly, having heard many of the stories and wishing to be part of that world. We decided that the new campaign should take place one year after the original campaign had ended. This was before the events in Thay, the fleeing of the family and all that. My wife wasn’t sure what character to play in this new campaign; she spoke of wanting to play something similar to the daughter of Runa and Sharantyr, Nydia. She was very passionate about the character and had written many stories about her. The last story ended tragically with Nydia researching a new spell and accidentally slaying Runa, her own mother, when the spell was miscast. The family called on all the magics they had to bring her back, but nothing worked, she was gone. Of course, since Nydia hadn’t even been born yet in the campaign setting, she couldn’t play her… That’s when I researched chronomancy from the old 2nd edition book and the Encyclopedia Arcane: Chronomancy. I gave her the possibility and Nydia’s new story was born. She would attempt to turn back time itself to stop her mother’s death. No one in the party, save one of the other DM’s, knew her true identity or that she was a time traveler. But as with all good plans, they go wrong. I’ll avoid the details of how she traveled back in time, or what exactly went wrong. Suffice it to say that all her powers and abilities were lost, and she was not when she wanted to be, she had gone back too early. She had gone to the time of the current campaign. How very convenient. She's also finding out that time may not be able to be changed... that perhaps sometimes that we have to live with our sins. But, we shall see what her future holds. The reason for my original post was because the current campaign has come to the time of the apocalypse in Thay. And I simply wanted it to be as accurate as was possible in its effects. I want the gravity of it to be felt by the PC’s, I don’t want to lessen the atrocity any. Well, I hope that answers some of the questions you’ve had, though I know I’ve left volumes out. If I can provide any other details, please let me know.
Green Giant 01-24-05, 09:06 PM	A very eloquent backstory to the return of a "new" campaign. Of course you couldn't expect any less after hearing about the DM that singlehandedly brought Thay to its knees. I'm wondering what roles the PCs in your new campaign have to play. Are they there to heal the damage or to take advantage? Were they any way responsible in assisting Sharantyr or did they try to prevent it? Where were they when the spell went off? Inquiring minds want to know.
Arravis 01-25-05, 10:19 AM	As far as the role of the PC's... so far it has been mixed. Nydia knew of the upcoming disaster, but could do little since any such action could compromise her secrets. There was a sad resignation to her throughout it. She has not contacted Sharantyr, she doesn't wish him to know of her existance. At the time it occured, the party was in the Moonsea city of Phlan. Not long after midnight a large flight of birds and clouds sped west. From the eastern horizon a sudden, nearly inaudible, shockwave passed through the area, lifting dancing eddies fresh snow into the air. The great wall of air that made its way across the city and was lost in the western horizon. The fallout of that event has been felt greatly in the campaign world. The party is now in Waterdeep, but even there it affects them. Refugees have made it as far as the City of Splendors. Some come to be with relatives that live there, others, mostly traders, come to seek a new life. One of the players is a cleric of Kossuth who has started a temple to the Fire Lord. Most of the worshipers are the very refugees she helps house and feed. Since the party has been far west, and not involved in politics, they aren't very aware of the exact condition of Thay. They know that some sort of massive disaster occured there. The thought is that it was some magical experiment went horribly arry. The party is making it's way east now, so I'm looking to get a more exacting idea of what realisticly would be left of Thay. Anyway, hope that info helps sir :). Thanks for reading the rather long entry btw!
Xavier_of_Cormyr 01-25-05, 12:03 PM	Nice tale Arravis. I'm wit you... fight the power & damn the rules lawyers! It's obviously making for great rpg'ing for you & your group. There should be more spells just like that one... just to peeve people off. :w00t: