Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chronomage 05-16-04, 11:22 PM	Hey all. I've got a party of evil characters about to start running around in the FR and I'm using the Book of Vile Darkness. I really like the Archfiends mentioned therein, and was planning on increasing their stats to denote their rising power and recognition in my campaign. But I still want to keep the dark gods (Bane, Cyric, Kiaransalee, Shar, and all the rest) paramount, but facing a bit of challenge from the Archdevils and Demon Princes. So, in that agenda, I've determined to redo the Archfiends stats to make them a MUCH higher CR (highest now is 32, I'm gonna bump that to 44 or so), and/or grant them special rules for divine rank. Some may have conditional divine rank, that stays with them while they're on their plane, lowers if they leave their plane, and is lost entirely if they leave the Hells/Abyss without special rules/tricks/mega powerful rituals (Antichrist stuff). My question to you is this: I have not yet gotten the Deities and Demi-gods book, but will by weeks end. What Divine rank would you feel comfortable giving to say, Asmodeus, the lord of all Hell, for example? And what about Orcus, a fallen but resurrected God already?
Chosen Of Bhaal 05-17-04, 12:46 AM	Im aware that it doesnt exactly answer your question but you might find that tebryn14 has statted them out somewhere here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=197789&perpage=30&pagenumber=1) if he hasnt got the ones you want he put somewhere on page 11 (i think) the rules for how hes doing the archfiends. you may wanna take a look there for inspiration on DvR's
Chronomage 05-17-04, 02:11 AM	Thanks, Chosen. I'm gonna follow the link now. The only thing I'm concerned with is not making them so powerful the Universe is their puppet. p.s. cool portrait
Chronomage 05-17-04, 02:15 AM	Question: Noticed that Asmodeus and various other Archdevils are not presented in the first list. Do they even exist in FR? If not, I'm gonna have to rework that. IMO, they're too classic to drop.
Taelohn 05-17-04, 03:18 AM	They do indeed exist in the Realms. There's mention of them in the Player's Guide to Faerun, and Elminster in Hell. If you're looking for more powerful archfiends, I have a few suggestions. Here (http://community.dicefreaks.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=268) is an example archfiend, Mephistopheles, completely redone for an epic setting. He has unique abilities, virtual divine ranks (which are indeed higher in Hell than elsewhere), and so on. He's almost - but not quite - a god, and can compete with them on a fair basis - with an advantage on his own plane, explaining why he's not been simply overrun by any ambitious deity that comes along. You can find most of the rest of the Lords of the Nine, demon princes, and so on around the site. I personally prefer the first option, but for those that don't like having near-divine archfiends, here (http://community.dicefreaks.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1059) you may find the archfiends from the Book of Vile Darkness kept much the same as in that book, but increased in hit dice and ability scores on the same ratio the standard demons were improved from 3E to v.3.5. Asmodeus, for example, goes from CR 32 to CR 45 under this method (as compared to the first, where he can definitely compete with most gods).
Chronomage 05-17-04, 03:57 AM	Thanks, Taelohn. Right now I haven't decided what to do with my Archfiends, so all resources I'm given, links and such, helps me make the final choice. Giving the Archfiends Divine ranks is a big decision, but in many cases, it sounds warranted.
Shemeska the Marauder 05-19-04, 06:48 PM	Originally posted by Chronomage The only thing I'm concerned with is not making them so powerful the Universe is their puppet. "Not to worry, the Universe is already our puppet. And when I say -our- I mean 'Yugoloths'." *'lothy smile* ;)
Dawnspeaker 05-19-04, 08:13 PM	I suggest using Kain's revamped archfiends in the BoVD board over the DF dicefiends from what you suggest. Mestopholies is fully as powerful as a god, even when not in hell.(and Demogorgon can destroy greater gods, as well as powerful epic monsters including fully advanced great wyrm prismastic dragons) Bel in test battles has proven capable of destroying a demigod with little to no effort. In the power range you mentioned I think the standard revamps Kain did would be a bit more in your indicated power level.
Chronomage 05-19-04, 08:49 PM	Agreed, but I've come to like the idea of Conditional Divine rank. For instance, the first 3 Lords of the Nine have this: Bel has conditional DvR that lasts as long as he stays in his layer but with a further condition, that he's siphoning off DvR from Zariel. Asmo never got around to giving him actual DvR, meaning Bel is very vulnerable. Dispater used to have DvR 1 anywhere on his layer of Hell, but than he got paranoid and perfecting his iron fortress led to the transfer of his DvR into it, making him essentially DvR 2 as long as he stays inside, along with other benefits. When he travels the plane he rules, he's essentially DvR 0. Mammon has DvR 1 conditional that stays with him as long as he's on his layer. Up the ladder, Belial has 2 conditional DvR, two on his layer, and one on any layer of Hell, and none once he leaves Hell. Mephistopheles has DvR 1 with 2 conditional DvR, meaning he's DvR 3 on Cania, DvR 2 on any layer of Hell, and DvR 1 anywhere else. Asmodeus has either 2 or 3 real DvR with 3 conditional DvR, meaning in Nessus he's DvR 5 or 6, 1 less on any layer of Hell, 2 less in any lower plane save for the Abyss, and DvR 2 or 3 in the Abyss or elsewhere. And of course, they cannot have avatars (except maybe for Asmodeus) save by use of specific Mega Rituals on par with the Antichrist treatment.