Are the computer games official canon? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are the computer games official canon? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Blaze the monk
02-16-05, 07:44 PM It seems surprising that I've never heard of the Bhaalspawn crisis outside of a couple of Dragon articles. Such a tumultuous event should be more documented, yes?
Also, Neverwinter Nights and its expansions have influenced a HELLUVA lot of stuff. e.g.: The deaths of Klauth, Luskan's high captains, some of the Host Tower's overwizards, king Obould Many-Arrows and the near destruction of Neverwinter itself. Then the crashing of a Netheril flying city which is stated to be felt all over Faerun. Then the Valsharess taking over Menzoberranzan and nearly the entire underdark to the invasion of Waterdeep! (although admittedly this takes place after the current year of 1373, suggesting that Lolth starts giving powers back to her priestesses again soon.)
Noone cares much about Icewind Dale so I'm not too bothered about IWD1 & 2.
But still all these major events surrounding the plots of these games can't have happened without making more of an impact on the Realms. None of them are mentioned in any sourcebook and as I said only a couple of Dragon articles mention Baldur's gate 1. So I'm seeking some clarification. Many have claimed that all games are canon unless otherwise stated but I'm having a hard time believing that.
Andyr
02-16-05, 08:45 PM I think the novels about the computer games are canon, but the games themselves aren't. :)

The games themselves as you say contain a lot of material that couldn't really be integrated... I'm not sure about the novel content.
Shemeska the Marauder
02-16-05, 09:35 PM I think the novels about the computer games are canon, but the games themselves aren't. :)

Nominally yes, but you'd be hard stretched to find any of those events actually referred to in any sourcebooks or other material after the fact. I think there's all of a single line referring to Bhaalspawn in Bhaal's writeup in Lost Empires of Faerun. That's it. ;)
Dargoth
02-16-05, 09:37 PM Some are and some arent

The old SSI games Pool of Radiance and Curse of the Azure Bonds are Canon (the events are reflected in the source books)

I doubt very much that the events in the Neverwinter Nights game will ever be Canon (Weve got a Waterdeep source book coming out this year and Im willing to bet that theres no mention of a certain Arch Devil ripping up the place)

The BG series have been semi canonised recently weve a short line in LEOF which said "Bhaal had some Bhaalspawn" there is no mention of any of the events that where covered in the game ie Saradash had not been burnt down in the FRC.

So Id say Theyve embraced the Bhaalspawn concept as cannon but not the events in the games
Kuje31
02-17-05, 01:11 AM Nominally yes, but you'd be hard stretched to find any of those events actually referred to in any sourcebooks or other material after the fact. I think there's all of a single line referring to Bhaalspawn in Bhaal's writeup in Lost Empires of Faerun. That's it. ;)

Except for the three novels and the sourcebook Ed wrote that ties in with them.
Shemeska the Marauder
02-17-05, 01:17 AM Except for the three novels and the sourcebook Ed wrote that ties in with them.

Ah, I was only referring to the Baldurs Gate/Icewind Dale games (and the 1 novel that came with them). Which game has 3 novels and a sourcebook associated with it, I wasn't aware of that. (comes from not having played FR till a few years ago, you miss all the prior stuff)
Kuje31
02-17-05, 01:25 AM Ah, I was only referring to the Baldurs Gate/Icewind Dale games (and the 1 novel that came with them). Which game has 3 novels and a sourcebook associated with it, I wasn't aware of that. (comes from not having played FR till a few years ago, you miss all the prior stuff)

The BG games have three novels, a sourcebook, a passage in the newest sourcebook, and at least 2 Dragon articles that tie in with the novels. :) One of those articles contain the stat's from the novel characters.

Sure seems that the BG events, from those novels, are canon and they always have been even if they are not mentioned in the FRCS, even though the FRCS doesn't mention a lot of things that are still canon since that sourcebook isn't the be all and end all on FR lore. It's also amusing that WOTC redid the novel web site in the past two months or so and the BG novels are STILL mentioned on it when a lot of the other novels were removed.
Lachoon
02-17-05, 02:03 AM What sourcebook does Baldur's Gate have?
Tempus665
02-17-05, 02:13 AM What sourcebook does Baldur's Gate have?

None so far, except for the 2e stuff, most notably Volo's Guide to BG.

The Primate of Bhaal prestige class also mentions the Bhaalspawn and the recent troubles with them. The events are said to be rumors that could be true, so as to leave it up to the individual DM to decide whether or not they actually did.

Thomas Costa, who wrote tis prestige class, also says he left the events of the BG computer game ambiguous on purpose.
Andyr
02-17-05, 09:28 AM Where is the Primate of Bhaal PrC?
Blaze the monk
02-17-05, 10:13 AM ^Yeah where? LEoF?

Also Its common knowledge that Bhaal descended to Faerun before the time of troubles and fathered all those mortal children. Thats mentioned everywhere. Its what those children did that are only mentioned in the BG novels.
Weiser_Cain
02-17-05, 12:25 PM How is Obould Dead in NWN if I'm reading about him in the newest drittzzz[I know] books? I'd say not at all.
Blaze the monk
02-17-05, 12:46 PM Thats the whole point of this disscussion. Anyway in Neverwinter Nights you get to kill Oubold 5 years after those books are set.
Kuje31
02-17-05, 01:21 PM How is Obould Dead in NWN if I'm reading about him in the newest drittzzz[I know] books? I'd say not at all.

Because most of the current games, except for the old SSI ones, are not canon. Only the sourcebooks, novels, Dragon articles, etc, are.
Dargoth
02-17-05, 07:05 PM Where is the Primate of Bhaal PrC?

I think hes talking about the Deathstalker of Bhaal Prc which can be found in Dragon 322
Blaze the monk
02-18-05, 10:18 AM Dammit! Why are all these things in Dragon? I can't get it where I live and the last one I read was from just after 3.0e came out!
Andyr
02-18-05, 01:25 PM I think hes talking about the Deathstalker of Bhaal Prc which can be found in Dragon 322

Oh, right, thanks.

Yeh, Dragon's not something that is easy to get round here. I am tempted to find out if there is a way to order individual articles or something.
BrianCritchley
02-18-05, 03:36 PM I was kinda dissappointed that the death stalker of bhaal wasn't in lost empires of fae run. would be a good place for it
Tempus665
02-19-05, 02:19 AM I think hes talking about the Deathstalker of Bhaal Prc which can be found in Dragon 322

No, I'm talking about the Primate of Bhaal, which can be downloaded freely here (http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/prestige_classes.html), together with a great number of other nice prestige classes. :)
Blaze the monk
02-19-05, 01:28 PM Hmm, not bad. Ta very much Tempus665.
KnightErrantJR
02-21-05, 10:05 PM There are a few assumptions going on here though, about the plots and how they pan out.

For example, Klauth and Obould don't HAVE to die. It all depends on how you resolve the quests associated with them. I will grant you though that Mephistophiles running wild in Waterdeep seems like something that would get noticed, but again, Hordes takes place past even the Rogue Dragon RSE going on now.

Some events may seem more major when your character experiences them, but in the grand scheme of the Realms they don't amount to much (especially if your PC does their job).

I usually treat the game plots the way I do the novels, which is that the overall theme of the story happens and the major players exist, but the exact events may not have played out the same way. Killing Klauth or Obould might be a bard's embellishment spurred on by one of the other not causing problems for a while, for example.
Blaze the monk
02-22-05, 01:33 PM If you were playing a good character (bear in mind NWN makes it very hard to play an evil one) Would you prolong evil Klauth's life? or take Oubold's brother's head intead of his own? Oubold, of course being the greatest potential Orc threat the north has seen in hundreds of years.
Mystery Man
02-22-05, 01:55 PM I've often wondered what would happen to the ecology of the surrounding area due to the population explosion of red dragons (Klauth uses red dragon eggs to prolong his life and gain power) in northern Faerun resulting from Klauth's death (would it were to actually canonically happen).

I'm assuming the Silver Marches and the Savage North would be up to their armpits is Reds. :invasion:
Blaze the monk
02-22-05, 02:21 PM Klauth doesn't just use red eggs. He'll use any that he can get his claws on.
Krash
02-22-05, 08:53 PM The BG games have three novels, a sourcebook, a passage in the newest sourcebook, and at least 2 Dragon articles that tie in with the novels. :) One of those articles contain the stat's from the novel characters.

Sure seems that the BG events, from those novels, are canon and they always have been even if they are not mentioned in the FRCS, even though the FRCS doesn't mention a lot of things that are still canon since that sourcebook isn't the be all and end all on FR lore. It's also amusing that WOTC redid the novel web site in the past two months or so and the BG novels are STILL mentioned on it when a lot of the other novels were removed.

Well, hopefully if we continue to ignore the events in the novel, the PC game plot will go away. The 'sourcebook' isn't really anything of the sort - and Ed provided the information on BG, the place, not the game and what hotkeys to press. The DRAGON articles will go away after a decade or so as they'll be long out of print and forgotten as we move into 5E and so hopefully there won't be a problem at all. Especially when modern computers won't be able to even play the games. :)

One thing I can practically guarantee anyone is that the plot elements of the computer games will not be picked up in any gaming products. Elements such as the bhaalspawn (a good concept IMHO) will get a mention but good luck trying to find a reference to Mephistopheles running rampage through Waterdeep in the upcoming City of Splendors accessory. Cheers. :D

-- George Krashos
Kuje31
02-22-05, 09:06 PM Well, hopefully if we continue to ignore the events in the novel, the PC game plot will go away. The 'sourcebook' isn't really anything of the sort - and Ed provided the information on BG, the place, not the game and what hotkeys to press. The DRAGON articles will go away after a decade or so as they'll be long out of print and forgotten as we move into 5E and so hopefully there won't be a problem at all. Especially when modern computers won't be able to even play the games. :)

One thing I can practically guarantee anyone is that the plot elements of the computer games will not be picked up in any gaming products. Elements such as the bhaalspawn (a good concept IMHO) will get a mention but good luck trying to find a reference to Mephistopheles running rampage through Waterdeep in the upcoming City of Splendors accessory. Cheers. :D

-- George Krashos

The novels, Dragon articles, and now 2 sourcebooks won't be forgotten if I have anything to say about it publically. Yes Ed's sourcebook does tie in with the novels and he has said so himself. So Ed's Volo's Guide to BG 2 isn't a "sourcebook?" Right sure whatever, George. Funny though that TSR renamed it to TIE IN with the novels and it was also renamed in game as well with Steven's input since he added it in his Candlekeep Collection. And if WOTC is "ignoring" the events from the novels then they shouldn't be adding passages in current sourcebooks that mention the Bhaalspawn or they shouldn't keep the three novels listed on thier REDESIGNED novel web site.

That's nice if the events of the games themselves are not mentioned. I don't care if they are or not since I've always said the BG games are NOT CANON. Only the novels, sourcebooks, and Dragon articles are. Hells the BG events pretty much have more written about them then a lot of the old RSE's, except for the ToT's.

Furthermore Ed, who you seem to respect, believes the novels are canon and his sourcebook is canon!

"And, as promised, Ed’s words to kuje31 re. canon (Athenon/Will, I promise I’ll tell some Ed as DM stories, to go with the ones in the early single-digit pages of this thread, the moment life spares me the time to do more than snatch and toss Ed’s words to waiting scribes . . . which may be five or six days from now) :

Although many licensed Realms products have given some designers fits over the years (and yes, the elf queen who appeared in the Wealdath in the BG II game was one such matter), the Volo's Guide to BG II is indeed canon. I can’t personally speak for the BG novels being canon.

What I can say is that, although gamers and fans hold many different personal positions on what is and what is not canon, the original Realms agreement is pretty clear on this: anything I write or say about the Realms IS official canon (hmm, sounds almost papal, doesn’t it?), although future in-print products can “fix” things I write or say and then the revision becomes canon, AS LONG AS it’s an in-the-Realms explanation. (To make up a hypothetical but entirely fictitious example, if a BATTLESYSTEM --remember that? -- product came out that changed the class and stats of an established Realms character, that alteration would NOT be a canon change, because it’s a rules sytem detail that can be ascribed as being unique to BATTLESYSTEM: “Well, in your AD&D game King Thog is still a 7th level barbarian, but in BATTLESYSTEM terms, he’s a YY” UNLESS the BATTLESYSTEM product stated that King Thog was transformed by a god into a YY.)

So, yes, my sourcebook is canon, and I’d assume the novels and “the stats for the characters in those novels that are in Dragon” are canon, too. However, that last bit IS an assumption on my part.

But yes, like it or not, if I say it, it’s canon. Which is why, of course, I say so little, and in such guarded terms. :}"
Meta_FR_DM
02-22-05, 10:19 PM Heya Kuje I think you missed Krash's sarcasm.

Or as they say round these parts: Chill, turbo!

Dave M.
Krash
02-23-05, 06:39 PM Kuje - relax buddy, we are actually on the same page here. I agree that the DRAGON articles should be 'canon' and I haven't read the BG novel so I won't comment on that (although if it is basically a novelization of the PC game plot - Iron Throne, metal going funny, Sarevok, et. al. - then I think that all of that is fine [except for the Iron Throne aspects - which don't match Cloak & Dagger at all. I'd deal with this by saying that Sarevok and co. are masquerading as the 'real' Iron Throne and trading on their notoriety and bad name, etc.]). Your quote shows that Ed (and yes, I do respect the man having built up a pretty decent long-distance friendship over the last 7 or so years) himself isn't sure about the novels but is happy to include them, as am I.

As for Ed's sourcebook, I was talking about the little booklet "Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate" that came with the PC Game, NOT "Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate II" which is a fantastic source and thankfully has nothing to do with the PC games other than detailing some of the locales the game is set in.

So, I think we agree as I said originally that the plots/gameplay of the PC games aren't canon, but any official, printed material (novels, articles, sourcebooks) are. Which is why you won't see a reference to Mephistopheles rampaging through Waterdeep, as I mentioned before.

-- George Krashos
otomik
02-24-05, 01:54 PM the thing is, how could you make computer game with multiple ways of playing the game using your own hero into canon?

someone mentions that an archdevil trashed waterdeep, that's not necessarily what happens, in fact you could have finished the game earlier than that by submitting to the big brain in the mindflayer town, trapped in his mental illusion for the rest of your life.

maybe that's the canon version of Hordes of the Underdark?
Kuje31
02-24-05, 03:15 PM the thing is, how could you make computer game with multiple ways of playing the game using your own hero into canon?

someone mentions that an archdevil trashed waterdeep, that's not necessarily what happens, in fact you could have finished the game earlier than that by submitting to the big brain in the mindflayer town, trapped in his mental illusion for the rest of your life.

maybe that's the canon version of Hordes of the Underdark?

The games are not canon, well except for parts of them, while the novels, articles, and other material based on those games are.
Damaramu
02-24-05, 10:55 PM Where does it talk about Bhaalspawn in 3E Realms books?
Kuje31
02-24-05, 10:59 PM Where does it talk about Bhaalspawn in 3E Realms books?

Lost Empires has a sentence about Bhaalspawn in the Bhaal entry.
Damaramu
02-24-05, 11:29 PM Yeah I read that. But I don't know where to find anything about what exactly a Bhaalspawn is or what they do. Except for that god awful Baldur's Gate II novel.
Kuje31
02-24-05, 11:42 PM Yeah I read that. But I don't know where to find anything about what exactly a Bhaalspawn is or what they do. Except for that god awful Baldur's Gate II novel.

There is a 3e template in issue #288 of Dragon.
Damaramu
02-25-05, 01:59 AM So there's nothing in the books about it?
That kind of sucks.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Blaze the monk 02-16-05, 07:44 PM	It seems surprising that I've never heard of the Bhaalspawn crisis outside of a couple of Dragon articles. Such a tumultuous event should be more documented, yes? Also, Neverwinter Nights and its expansions have influenced a HELLUVA lot of stuff. e.g.: The deaths of Klauth, Luskan's high captains, some of the Host Tower's overwizards, king Obould Many-Arrows and the near destruction of Neverwinter itself. Then the crashing of a Netheril flying city which is stated to be felt all over Faerun. Then the Valsharess taking over Menzoberranzan and nearly the entire underdark to the invasion of Waterdeep! (although admittedly this takes place after the current year of 1373, suggesting that Lolth starts giving powers back to her priestesses again soon.) Noone cares much about Icewind Dale so I'm not too bothered about IWD1 & 2. But still all these major events surrounding the plots of these games can't have happened without making more of an impact on the Realms. None of them are mentioned in any sourcebook and as I said only a couple of Dragon articles mention Baldur's gate 1. So I'm seeking some clarification. Many have claimed that all games are canon unless otherwise stated but I'm having a hard time believing that.
Andyr 02-16-05, 08:45 PM	I think the novels about the computer games are canon, but the games themselves aren't. :) The games themselves as you say contain a lot of material that couldn't really be integrated... I'm not sure about the novel content.
Shemeska the Marauder 02-16-05, 09:35 PM	I think the novels about the computer games are canon, but the games themselves aren't. :) Nominally yes, but you'd be hard stretched to find any of those events actually referred to in any sourcebooks or other material after the fact. I think there's all of a single line referring to Bhaalspawn in Bhaal's writeup in Lost Empires of Faerun. That's it. ;)
Dargoth 02-16-05, 09:37 PM	Some are and some arent The old SSI games Pool of Radiance and Curse of the Azure Bonds are Canon (the events are reflected in the source books) I doubt very much that the events in the Neverwinter Nights game will ever be Canon (Weve got a Waterdeep source book coming out this year and Im willing to bet that theres no mention of a certain Arch Devil ripping up the place) The BG series have been semi canonised recently weve a short line in LEOF which said "Bhaal had some Bhaalspawn" there is no mention of any of the events that where covered in the game ie Saradash had not been burnt down in the FRC. So Id say Theyve embraced the Bhaalspawn concept as cannon but not the events in the games
Kuje31 02-17-05, 01:11 AM	Nominally yes, but you'd be hard stretched to find any of those events actually referred to in any sourcebooks or other material after the fact. I think there's all of a single line referring to Bhaalspawn in Bhaal's writeup in Lost Empires of Faerun. That's it. ;) Except for the three novels and the sourcebook Ed wrote that ties in with them.
Shemeska the Marauder 02-17-05, 01:17 AM	Except for the three novels and the sourcebook Ed wrote that ties in with them. Ah, I was only referring to the Baldurs Gate/Icewind Dale games (and the 1 novel that came with them). Which game has 3 novels and a sourcebook associated with it, I wasn't aware of that. (comes from not having played FR till a few years ago, you miss all the prior stuff)
Kuje31 02-17-05, 01:25 AM	Ah, I was only referring to the Baldurs Gate/Icewind Dale games (and the 1 novel that came with them). Which game has 3 novels and a sourcebook associated with it, I wasn't aware of that. (comes from not having played FR till a few years ago, you miss all the prior stuff) The BG games have three novels, a sourcebook, a passage in the newest sourcebook, and at least 2 Dragon articles that tie in with the novels. :) One of those articles contain the stat's from the novel characters. Sure seems that the BG events, from those novels, are canon and they always have been even if they are not mentioned in the FRCS, even though the FRCS doesn't mention a lot of things that are still canon since that sourcebook isn't the be all and end all on FR lore. It's also amusing that WOTC redid the novel web site in the past two months or so and the BG novels are STILL mentioned on it when a lot of the other novels were removed.
Lachoon 02-17-05, 02:03 AM	What sourcebook does Baldur's Gate have?
Tempus665 02-17-05, 02:13 AM	What sourcebook does Baldur's Gate have? None so far, except for the 2e stuff, most notably Volo's Guide to BG. The Primate of Bhaal prestige class also mentions the Bhaalspawn and the recent troubles with them. The events are said to be rumors that could be true, so as to leave it up to the individual DM to decide whether or not they actually did. Thomas Costa, who wrote tis prestige class, also says he left the events of the BG computer game ambiguous on purpose.
Andyr 02-17-05, 09:28 AM	Where is the Primate of Bhaal PrC?
Blaze the monk 02-17-05, 10:13 AM	^Yeah where? LEoF? Also Its common knowledge that Bhaal descended to Faerun before the time of troubles and fathered all those mortal children. Thats mentioned everywhere. Its what those children did that are only mentioned in the BG novels.
Weiser_Cain 02-17-05, 12:25 PM	How is Obould Dead in NWN if I'm reading about him in the newest drittzzz[I know] books? I'd say not at all.
Blaze the monk 02-17-05, 12:46 PM	Thats the whole point of this disscussion. Anyway in Neverwinter Nights you get to kill Oubold 5 years after those books are set.
Kuje31 02-17-05, 01:21 PM	How is Obould Dead in NWN if I'm reading about him in the newest drittzzz[I know] books? I'd say not at all. Because most of the current games, except for the old SSI ones, are not canon. Only the sourcebooks, novels, Dragon articles, etc, are.
Dargoth 02-17-05, 07:05 PM	Where is the Primate of Bhaal PrC? I think hes talking about the Deathstalker of Bhaal Prc which can be found in Dragon 322
Blaze the monk 02-18-05, 10:18 AM	Dammit! Why are all these things in Dragon? I can't get it where I live and the last one I read was from just after 3.0e came out!
Andyr 02-18-05, 01:25 PM	I think hes talking about the Deathstalker of Bhaal Prc which can be found in Dragon 322 Oh, right, thanks. Yeh, Dragon's not something that is easy to get round here. I am tempted to find out if there is a way to order individual articles or something.
BrianCritchley 02-18-05, 03:36 PM	I was kinda dissappointed that the death stalker of bhaal wasn't in lost empires of fae run. would be a good place for it
Tempus665 02-19-05, 02:19 AM	I think hes talking about the Deathstalker of Bhaal Prc which can be found in Dragon 322 No, I'm talking about the Primate of Bhaal, which can be downloaded freely here (http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/prestige_classes.html), together with a great number of other nice prestige classes. :)
Blaze the monk 02-19-05, 01:28 PM	Hmm, not bad. Ta very much Tempus665.
KnightErrantJR 02-21-05, 10:05 PM	There are a few assumptions going on here though, about the plots and how they pan out. For example, Klauth and Obould don't HAVE to die. It all depends on how you resolve the quests associated with them. I will grant you though that Mephistophiles running wild in Waterdeep seems like something that would get noticed, but again, Hordes takes place past even the Rogue Dragon RSE going on now. Some events may seem more major when your character experiences them, but in the grand scheme of the Realms they don't amount to much (especially if your PC does their job). I usually treat the game plots the way I do the novels, which is that the overall theme of the story happens and the major players exist, but the exact events may not have played out the same way. Killing Klauth or Obould might be a bard's embellishment spurred on by one of the other not causing problems for a while, for example.
Blaze the monk 02-22-05, 01:33 PM	If you were playing a good character (bear in mind NWN makes it very hard to play an evil one) Would you prolong evil Klauth's life? or take Oubold's brother's head intead of his own? Oubold, of course being the greatest potential Orc threat the north has seen in hundreds of years.
Mystery Man 02-22-05, 01:55 PM	I've often wondered what would happen to the ecology of the surrounding area due to the population explosion of red dragons (Klauth uses red dragon eggs to prolong his life and gain power) in northern Faerun resulting from Klauth's death (would it were to actually canonically happen). I'm assuming the Silver Marches and the Savage North would be up to their armpits is Reds. :invasion:
Blaze the monk 02-22-05, 02:21 PM	Klauth doesn't just use red eggs. He'll use any that he can get his claws on.
Krash 02-22-05, 08:53 PM	The BG games have three novels, a sourcebook, a passage in the newest sourcebook, and at least 2 Dragon articles that tie in with the novels. :) One of those articles contain the stat's from the novel characters. Sure seems that the BG events, from those novels, are canon and they always have been even if they are not mentioned in the FRCS, even though the FRCS doesn't mention a lot of things that are still canon since that sourcebook isn't the be all and end all on FR lore. It's also amusing that WOTC redid the novel web site in the past two months or so and the BG novels are STILL mentioned on it when a lot of the other novels were removed. Well, hopefully if we continue to ignore the events in the novel, the PC game plot will go away. The 'sourcebook' isn't really anything of the sort - and Ed provided the information on BG, the place, not the game and what hotkeys to press. The DRAGON articles will go away after a decade or so as they'll be long out of print and forgotten as we move into 5E and so hopefully there won't be a problem at all. Especially when modern computers won't be able to even play the games. :) One thing I can practically guarantee anyone is that the plot elements of the computer games will not be picked up in any gaming products. Elements such as the bhaalspawn (a good concept IMHO) will get a mention but good luck trying to find a reference to Mephistopheles running rampage through Waterdeep in the upcoming City of Splendors accessory. Cheers. :D -- George Krashos
Kuje31 02-22-05, 09:06 PM	Well, hopefully if we continue to ignore the events in the novel, the PC game plot will go away. The 'sourcebook' isn't really anything of the sort - and Ed provided the information on BG, the place, not the game and what hotkeys to press. The DRAGON articles will go away after a decade or so as they'll be long out of print and forgotten as we move into 5E and so hopefully there won't be a problem at all. Especially when modern computers won't be able to even play the games. :) One thing I can practically guarantee anyone is that the plot elements of the computer games will not be picked up in any gaming products. Elements such as the bhaalspawn (a good concept IMHO) will get a mention but good luck trying to find a reference to Mephistopheles running rampage through Waterdeep in the upcoming City of Splendors accessory. Cheers. :D -- George Krashos The novels, Dragon articles, and now 2 sourcebooks won't be forgotten if I have anything to say about it publically. Yes Ed's sourcebook does tie in with the novels and he has said so himself. So Ed's Volo's Guide to BG 2 isn't a "sourcebook?" Right sure whatever, George. Funny though that TSR renamed it to TIE IN with the novels and it was also renamed in game as well with Steven's input since he added it in his Candlekeep Collection. And if WOTC is "ignoring" the events from the novels then they shouldn't be adding passages in current sourcebooks that mention the Bhaalspawn or they shouldn't keep the three novels listed on thier REDESIGNED novel web site. That's nice if the events of the games themselves are not mentioned. I don't care if they are or not since I've always said the BG games are NOT CANON. Only the novels, sourcebooks, and Dragon articles are. Hells the BG events pretty much have more written about them then a lot of the old RSE's, except for the ToT's. Furthermore Ed, who you seem to respect, believes the novels are canon and his sourcebook is canon! "And, as promised, Ed’s words to kuje31 re. canon (Athenon/Will, I promise I’ll tell some Ed as DM stories, to go with the ones in the early single-digit pages of this thread, the moment life spares me the time to do more than snatch and toss Ed’s words to waiting scribes . . . which may be five or six days from now) : Although many licensed Realms products have given some designers fits over the years (and yes, the elf queen who appeared in the Wealdath in the BG II game was one such matter), the Volo's Guide to BG II is indeed canon. I can’t personally speak for the BG novels being canon. What I can say is that, although gamers and fans hold many different personal positions on what is and what is not canon, the original Realms agreement is pretty clear on this: anything I write or say about the Realms IS official canon (hmm, sounds almost papal, doesn’t it?), although future in-print products can “fix” things I write or say and then the revision becomes canon, AS LONG AS it’s an in-the-Realms explanation. (To make up a hypothetical but entirely fictitious example, if a BATTLESYSTEM --remember that? -- product came out that changed the class and stats of an established Realms character, that alteration would NOT be a canon change, because it’s a rules sytem detail that can be ascribed as being unique to BATTLESYSTEM: “Well, in your AD&D game King Thog is still a 7th level barbarian, but in BATTLESYSTEM terms, he’s a YY” UNLESS the BATTLESYSTEM product stated that King Thog was transformed by a god into a YY.) So, yes, my sourcebook is canon, and I’d assume the novels and “the stats for the characters in those novels that are in Dragon” are canon, too. However, that last bit IS an assumption on my part. But yes, like it or not, if I say it, it’s canon. Which is why, of course, I say so little, and in such guarded terms. :}"
Meta_FR_DM 02-22-05, 10:19 PM	Heya Kuje I think you missed Krash's sarcasm. Or as they say round these parts: Chill, turbo! Dave M.
Krash 02-23-05, 06:39 PM	Kuje - relax buddy, we are actually on the same page here. I agree that the DRAGON articles should be 'canon' and I haven't read the BG novel so I won't comment on that (although if it is basically a novelization of the PC game plot - Iron Throne, metal going funny, Sarevok, et. al. - then I think that all of that is fine [except for the Iron Throne aspects - which don't match Cloak & Dagger at all. I'd deal with this by saying that Sarevok and co. are masquerading as the 'real' Iron Throne and trading on their notoriety and bad name, etc.]). Your quote shows that Ed (and yes, I do respect the man having built up a pretty decent long-distance friendship over the last 7 or so years) himself isn't sure about the novels but is happy to include them, as am I. As for Ed's sourcebook, I was talking about the little booklet "Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate" that came with the PC Game, NOT "Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate II" which is a fantastic source and thankfully has nothing to do with the PC games other than detailing some of the locales the game is set in. So, I think we agree as I said originally that the plots/gameplay of the PC games aren't canon, but any official, printed material (novels, articles, sourcebooks) are. Which is why you won't see a reference to Mephistopheles rampaging through Waterdeep, as I mentioned before. -- George Krashos
otomik 02-24-05, 01:54 PM	the thing is, how could you make computer game with multiple ways of playing the game using your own hero into canon? someone mentions that an archdevil trashed waterdeep, that's not necessarily what happens, in fact you could have finished the game earlier than that by submitting to the big brain in the mindflayer town, trapped in his mental illusion for the rest of your life. maybe that's the canon version of Hordes of the Underdark?
Kuje31 02-24-05, 03:15 PM	the thing is, how could you make computer game with multiple ways of playing the game using your own hero into canon? someone mentions that an archdevil trashed waterdeep, that's not necessarily what happens, in fact you could have finished the game earlier than that by submitting to the big brain in the mindflayer town, trapped in his mental illusion for the rest of your life. maybe that's the canon version of Hordes of the Underdark? The games are not canon, well except for parts of them, while the novels, articles, and other material based on those games are.
Damaramu 02-24-05, 10:55 PM	Where does it talk about Bhaalspawn in 3E Realms books?
Kuje31 02-24-05, 10:59 PM	Where does it talk about Bhaalspawn in 3E Realms books? Lost Empires has a sentence about Bhaalspawn in the Bhaal entry.
Damaramu 02-24-05, 11:29 PM	Yeah I read that. But I don't know where to find anything about what exactly a Bhaalspawn is or what they do. Except for that god awful Baldur's Gate II novel.
Kuje31 02-24-05, 11:42 PM	Yeah I read that. But I don't know where to find anything about what exactly a Bhaalspawn is or what they do. Except for that god awful Baldur's Gate II novel. There is a 3e template in issue #288 of Dragon.
Damaramu 02-25-05, 01:59 AM	So there's nothing in the books about it? That kind of sucks.