Are the planes under-used? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are the planes under-used? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kamekazou
08-30-06, 01:30 PM Since the change in cosmology, I've noticed a decrease in use of the planes in the FR setting. I haven't been in a campaign that takes place in any of the planes in the new cosmology, and I don't know anyone who has. What sources are there to help people that want to run a campaign in Fury's Heart, or the House of Nature?

EDIT: Oops! I mean to put this in Magic, Deities and the Cosmos.
BrianCritchley
08-30-06, 04:44 PM other then the players guide to faerun? there is none, it seems that unconciously at least FR isn't really being designed with planewalking in mind. a pity really
Old Sage
08-30-06, 09:29 PM Well, there's been plenty of planar references in several novels over the last few years, and the odd tidbits dropped into various regional books and/or adventures for 3e FR.

However, recall that WotC wants to focus exclusively on the Realms... specifically the Prime Material element. The planar cosmology is an extension to that, and draws attention away from the FR as we've seen in 3e sourcebooks.

The planar cosmology is there, and its been set up for DMs to run campaigns... but I doubt it will receive as much attention as it did during the days of 2e FR where, thanks to the structure of the Great Wheel and the cross-planar tradition of different campaign settings, learning about planar travel in the FR was almost as important as learning about the Realms itself.
Lord Karsus
08-30-06, 09:41 PM -I think that they are, but in a few recent novels, we've had some planeshifting. Hopefully, that is a good sign.
Krash
08-31-06, 12:59 AM When I see a sourcebook on Cormyr, the Heartlands, the Old Empires, the Bloodstone Lands, the Dragon Coast, the Trackless Sea and a few other places and things (dwarves!), then I'll personally consider it time for a greater focus on the planes.

-- George Krashos
Lord Karsus
08-31-06, 01:37 AM When I see a sourcebook on Cormyr, the Heartlands, the Old Empires, the Bloodstone Lands, the Dragon Coast, the Trackless Sea and a few other places and things (dwarves!), then I'll personally consider it time for a greater focus on the planes.

-- George Krashos

-I can't wait for that Trackless Sea sourcebook! But, is there really enough information on a body of water to merit a sourcebook? Even including possible underwater civilizations in the area...
Gray Richardson
08-31-06, 03:55 AM I know there has been mixed reaction to the adventure format of recent and pending Realms books, but I think a combo FR planes sourcebook/planar adventure book would work great. The planes lend themselves very well to adventures.

Make no mistake, my primary desire would be to see a full blown Planes of Faerun sourcebook, but if they decided to do a planar adventure book (with lots of lore mixed in) I would definitely buy it and would welcome it, especially if it got people mixing a little planar delving into their Forgotten Realms adventuring. :)
primemover003
08-31-06, 06:00 PM You know as HUGE a fan as I am of Planar adventuring and Faerun, I don't really think you can extend the flavor of the Realms into the planes at large.

What Realmsian meta hooks are really drifting out in the planes? Where did the Nilshai come from; what enemies on the Plane of Shadow might come looking for Shade; are the Demon Princes and Lords of the Nine as involved in Faerun as other worlds as we have Malkazid & Gargauth for the arch devils and Eltab & Orcus for Demons princes, a couple nasty Nycaloths...

...you know I've never heard of many Celestial servitors or Paragons calling on the Realms other than the Shards (planatars) and Lillends (on the Infinite Staircase and Gates of the Moon).
GothicDan
08-31-06, 06:36 PM I would love to know what Ed's original 'cosmology' looked like. It seems more consistent with 2E's cosmology, idealistically (fairy easy travel from one world/dimension/plane to the next, rather than having top hop all over the place). He's mentioned it in reference to the Wood Between the Worlds, and that 'cosmology' was certainly much easier to 'use' for travel than the current Tree is.

And part of Faerun's actual theme is regular planar travel, gates, world-walking, etc. You can see a lot of that in Ed's replies.
Lord Karsus
08-31-06, 07:26 PM I would love to know what Ed's original 'cosmology' looked like.

-That would be nice, but if Ed's ideas were drastically different than what was presented as the cosmology in 2e, and now 3e, I don't want to see more previously established lore arbitrarily changed. It's not that I don't want Ed to "reclaim" his world, but I don't want to see more established lore changed without much in-game explanation, you know?
GothicDan
08-31-06, 07:57 PM That would be nice, but if Ed's ideas were drastically different than what was presented as the cosmology in 2e, and now 3e, I don't want to see more previously established lore arbitrarily changed. It's not that I don't want Ed to "reclaim" his world, but I don't want to see more established lore changed without much in-game explanation, you know?

Agreed.
Old Sage
08-31-06, 10:45 PM I would love to know what Ed's original 'cosmology' looked like. It seems more consistent with 2E's cosmology, idealistically (fairy easy travel from one world/dimension/plane to the next, rather than having top hop all over the place). He's mentioned it in reference to the Wood Between the Worlds, and that 'cosmology' was certainly much easier to 'use' for travel than the current Tree is.Oh, very much so.

I'd also like to learn a little more about the relationships between the individuals worlds/dimensions/planes originally envisioned as part of Ed's cosmology... especially with regard to how they connected with the Realms.
Shemeska the Marauder
09-01-06, 12:16 AM Since the change in cosmology, I've noticed a decrease in use of the planes in the FR setting.

It is indeed a pity. I like the realms and I like the planes, don't make me pick between them. In line with the trend you've noticed, it's really a byproduct of the cosmology retcon, be it intended or not [I can't say what was going on in SKR's head, and though it has been promised he's never really provided a public explanation of the design process for that as far as I know, though I remain interested to see it] But, that said, the new cosmology is much less friendly towards planar adventuring. The new setup largely removes the ability of PCs to be able to do much on the planes that might be vaguely relevant, since most of the planes are deific domains writ large, not infinite realms. The planes are less detailed and more cloistered in the new model. The pond is smaller, and it's structured according to deities, and only the FR deities, rather than being the landscapes of infinite abstracts made manifests. It's not a landscape of wonder and terror, it's Bane's sandbox, or Mystra's summer home, and the most interesting places and the ones where you stand a decent chance of doing anything worthwhile, are those planes lifted entirely from the Great Wheel.

I haven't been in a campaign that takes place in any of the planes in the new cosmology, and I don't know anyone who has.

Put it this way. No one I know who uses FR and the planes uses the new cosmology. Of those people I know who use the new cosmology in their FR games, they've never had those campaigns visit the planes, not once, and some of them are even hostile to the idea that PCs are even meant to ever go there.

The previous cosmology was actively geared to facilitate planewalking PCs, but didn't negatively impact or intrude upon games that didn't care to use the planes. The new cosmology likewise doesn't do anything good or bad if you never use the planes, but it hamstrings you if you do. Thus I completely discount it and use the model that provides me with more depth, more options, and a style more suitable for planar campaigns.

What sources are there to help people that want to run a campaign in Fury's Heart, or the House of Nature?

3e hasn't given much at all except for the PGtF, and by comparison you're better served by using the 2e material:

The 2e FR deity books (which use the original cosmology) have relevant details, and they're great books in general. The seminal sources on the planes, the 2e Planescape 'Planes of Conflict/Chaos/Law' include details on various deific domains of some Torillian deities. 'On Hallowed Ground' has some additional material, and other material is scattered through some other 2e sources as well (such as Tiamat's deific domain as it appears in the module 'Fires of Dis').

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kamekazou 08-30-06, 01:30 PM	Since the change in cosmology, I've noticed a decrease in use of the planes in the FR setting. I haven't been in a campaign that takes place in any of the planes in the new cosmology, and I don't know anyone who has. What sources are there to help people that want to run a campaign in Fury's Heart, or the House of Nature? EDIT: Oops! I mean to put this in Magic, Deities and the Cosmos.
BrianCritchley 08-30-06, 04:44 PM	other then the players guide to faerun? there is none, it seems that unconciously at least FR isn't really being designed with planewalking in mind. a pity really
Old Sage 08-30-06, 09:29 PM	Well, there's been plenty of planar references in several novels over the last few years, and the odd tidbits dropped into various regional books and/or adventures for 3e FR. However, recall that WotC wants to focus exclusively on the Realms... specifically the Prime Material element. The planar cosmology is an extension to that, and draws attention away from the FR as we've seen in 3e sourcebooks. The planar cosmology is there, and its been set up for DMs to run campaigns... but I doubt it will receive as much attention as it did during the days of 2e FR where, thanks to the structure of the Great Wheel and the cross-planar tradition of different campaign settings, learning about planar travel in the FR was almost as important as learning about the Realms itself.
Lord Karsus 08-30-06, 09:41 PM	-I think that they are, but in a few recent novels, we've had some planeshifting. Hopefully, that is a good sign.
Krash 08-31-06, 12:59 AM	When I see a sourcebook on Cormyr, the Heartlands, the Old Empires, the Bloodstone Lands, the Dragon Coast, the Trackless Sea and a few other places and things (dwarves!), then I'll personally consider it time for a greater focus on the planes. -- George Krashos
Lord Karsus 08-31-06, 01:37 AM	When I see a sourcebook on Cormyr, the Heartlands, the Old Empires, the Bloodstone Lands, the Dragon Coast, the Trackless Sea and a few other places and things (dwarves!), then I'll personally consider it time for a greater focus on the planes. -- George Krashos -I can't wait for that Trackless Sea sourcebook! But, is there really enough information on a body of water to merit a sourcebook? Even including possible underwater civilizations in the area...
Gray Richardson 08-31-06, 03:55 AM	I know there has been mixed reaction to the adventure format of recent and pending Realms books, but I think a combo FR planes sourcebook/planar adventure book would work great. The planes lend themselves very well to adventures. Make no mistake, my primary desire would be to see a full blown Planes of Faerun sourcebook, but if they decided to do a planar adventure book (with lots of lore mixed in) I would definitely buy it and would welcome it, especially if it got people mixing a little planar delving into their Forgotten Realms adventuring. :)
primemover003 08-31-06, 06:00 PM	You know as HUGE a fan as I am of Planar adventuring and Faerun, I don't really think you can extend the flavor of the Realms into the planes at large. What Realmsian meta hooks are really drifting out in the planes? Where did the Nilshai come from; what enemies on the Plane of Shadow might come looking for Shade; are the Demon Princes and Lords of the Nine as involved in Faerun as other worlds as we have Malkazid & Gargauth for the arch devils and Eltab & Orcus for Demons princes, a couple nasty Nycaloths... ...you know I've never heard of many Celestial servitors or Paragons calling on the Realms other than the Shards (planatars) and Lillends (on the Infinite Staircase and Gates of the Moon).
GothicDan 08-31-06, 06:36 PM	I would love to know what Ed's original 'cosmology' looked like. It seems more consistent with 2E's cosmology, idealistically (fairy easy travel from one world/dimension/plane to the next, rather than having top hop all over the place). He's mentioned it in reference to the Wood Between the Worlds, and that 'cosmology' was certainly much easier to 'use' for travel than the current Tree is. And part of Faerun's actual theme is regular planar travel, gates, world-walking, etc. You can see a lot of that in Ed's replies.
Lord Karsus 08-31-06, 07:26 PM	I would love to know what Ed's original 'cosmology' looked like. -That would be nice, but if Ed's ideas were drastically different than what was presented as the cosmology in 2e, and now 3e, I don't want to see more previously established lore arbitrarily changed. It's not that I don't want Ed to "reclaim" his world, but I don't want to see more established lore changed without much in-game explanation, you know?
GothicDan 08-31-06, 07:57 PM	That would be nice, but if Ed's ideas were drastically different than what was presented as the cosmology in 2e, and now 3e, I don't want to see more previously established lore arbitrarily changed. It's not that I don't want Ed to "reclaim" his world, but I don't want to see more established lore changed without much in-game explanation, you know? Agreed.
Old Sage 08-31-06, 10:45 PM	I would love to know what Ed's original 'cosmology' looked like. It seems more consistent with 2E's cosmology, idealistically (fairy easy travel from one world/dimension/plane to the next, rather than having top hop all over the place). He's mentioned it in reference to the Wood Between the Worlds, and that 'cosmology' was certainly much easier to 'use' for travel than the current Tree is.Oh, very much so. I'd also like to learn a little more about the relationships between the individuals worlds/dimensions/planes originally envisioned as part of Ed's cosmology... especially with regard to how they connected with the Realms.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-01-06, 12:16 AM	Since the change in cosmology, I've noticed a decrease in use of the planes in the FR setting. It is indeed a pity. I like the realms and I like the planes, don't make me pick between them. In line with the trend you've noticed, it's really a byproduct of the cosmology retcon, be it intended or not [I can't say what was going on in SKR's head, and though it has been promised he's never really provided a public explanation of the design process for that as far as I know, though I remain interested to see it] But, that said, the new cosmology is much less friendly towards planar adventuring. The new setup largely removes the ability of PCs to be able to do much on the planes that might be vaguely relevant, since most of the planes are deific domains writ large, not infinite realms. The planes are less detailed and more cloistered in the new model. The pond is smaller, and it's structured according to deities, and only the FR deities, rather than being the landscapes of infinite abstracts made manifests. It's not a landscape of wonder and terror, it's Bane's sandbox, or Mystra's summer home, and the most interesting places and the ones where you stand a decent chance of doing anything worthwhile, are those planes lifted entirely from the Great Wheel. I haven't been in a campaign that takes place in any of the planes in the new cosmology, and I don't know anyone who has. Put it this way. No one I know who uses FR and the planes uses the new cosmology. Of those people I know who use the new cosmology in their FR games, they've never had those campaigns visit the planes, not once, and some of them are even hostile to the idea that PCs are even meant to ever go there. The previous cosmology was actively geared to facilitate planewalking PCs, but didn't negatively impact or intrude upon games that didn't care to use the planes. The new cosmology likewise doesn't do anything good or bad if you never use the planes, but it hamstrings you if you do. Thus I completely discount it and use the model that provides me with more depth, more options, and a style more suitable for planar campaigns. What sources are there to help people that want to run a campaign in Fury's Heart, or the House of Nature? 3e hasn't given much at all except for the PGtF, and by comparison you're better served by using the 2e material: The 2e FR deity books (which use the original cosmology) have relevant details, and they're great books in general. The seminal sources on the planes, the 2e Planescape 'Planes of Conflict/Chaos/Law' include details on various deific domains of some Torillian deities. 'On Hallowed Ground' has some additional material, and other material is scattered through some other 2e sources as well (such as Tiamat's deific domain as it appears in the module 'Fires of Dis').