Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bogardt 01-03-06, 02:56 PM	I've got a problem in my adventuring group. It's a fun campaign, with an involving storyline, but one of the characters is driving me (and my character) up a wall. The character is a druid/wu-jen, working towards arcane hyrophant. A little odd, but the problem is this: his beliefs are a hodge-podge of eastern philosophy and generic fantasy. He believes the gods are just powerful folks, and openly talks about his goals of reaching godhood, ect. He openly laughs at my Elven cleric's prayers and spiritual devotion. He is supposed to be 'crazy' (he often goes off on rants, though he's sufficiently coherent when he feels like it). He says things like, 'there's no such thing as magic, just nature'. I'd be perfectly willing to dismiss his belief system as insanity, if he didn't recieve divine power as a druid. That makes things somewhat difficult. How can I explain away his belief system when he's getting divine spells? I've thought about perhaps attributing them to some malevolent force that wants him to have power for some reason, but why? I'm pulling my hair out over this. I brought it up a long time ago with the player, but he said the DM said he could play with 'nature' as a deity, and he'd continue to go with that until the DM said otherwise. I spoke with the DM, and he expressed regreat at allowing it, but didn't commit to having him change it, particularly after all this time. He's been playing with the player and the rest of the group for a long time before I joined, I think. What can I do? I'm very open-minded in real life, but there's not a lot of mystery in Realms religion. The gods shouldn't give out power to people that make fun of them, but I don't want to make demands on the group to conform to Realms scripture.
Shemeska the Marauder 01-03-06, 03:07 PM	If he was anywhere else in the multiverse, he'd make for a posterboy for the Athar or the Believers of the Source with those attitudes towards deities. Toril is odd though, since by its nature, or perhaps by ruling of Ao, mortals seem to be pushed heavily towards worshiping Toril's deities and divine spells must be granted by one of them, when elsewhere it could be gained by faith in an abstract concept that transcends those deities. I don't have a problem with a godless cleric, though I tend to make them -very- rare comparatively, and they don't have the resources of an established church heirarchy, but on Toril it gets a bit tough. Of course, I tend to think this aspect of FR is a bit harsh, and a bit arbitrary.
Lord Karsus 01-03-06, 03:17 PM	-I got into D&D in 2000, when 3e came out, but isn't there a provision in 1e or 2e that says that a character can cast Divine magic up until a certain point through the sheer will of believing. For instance, if I believe that my ham sandwich is the reincarnation of Ao, I can cast divine magic (up until 3rd level, I believe) through my sheer will and religious fervor. Maybe I am wrong, and completely making this up. Maybe this was someone's house rules. -There is nothing wrong with a godless druid, however. Druid's don't worship gods, they worship nature. Since he has a sort of eastern philosophy, perhaps the spirits of nature are supplying him with magic. The character doesn't have to know it is divine magic, and can believe it is nature magic, or what have you.
Kuje31 01-03-06, 03:28 PM	-I got into D&D in 2000, when 3e came out, but isn't there a provision in 1e or 2e that says that a character can cast Divine magic up until a certain point through the sheer will of believing. For instance, if I believe that my ham sandwich is the reincarnation of Ao, I can cast divine magic (up until 3rd level, I believe) through my sheer will and religious fervor. Maybe I am wrong, and completely making this up. Maybe this was someone's house rules. -There is nothing wrong with a godless druid, however. Druid's don't worship gods, they worship nature. Since he has a sort of eastern philosophy, perhaps the spirits of nature are supplying him with magic. The character doesn't have to know it is divine magic, and can believe it is nature magic, or what have you. 2nd level spells and no, you aren't making that up. :) And yes, in FR you must have a deity to get divine spells unlike the core rule books, which says that you can worship nature as a druid. Well in FR, nature is a deity, it's either Chauntea, Silvanus, Mielikki, etc. I'd never allow any divine caster in FR to NOT worship a deity since the deities have shown themselves during the ToT and they have thier hands in hundreds of divine casters, especially since divine spells in FR have to come from a deity.
Shemeska the Marauder 01-03-06, 04:26 PM	2nd level spells and no, you aren't making that up. :) And yes, in FR you must have a deity to get divine spells unlike the core rule books, which says that you can worship nature as a druid. Well in FR, nature is a deity, it's either Chauntea, Silvanus, Mielikki, etc. I'd never allow any divine caster in FR to NOT worship a deity since the deities have shown themselves during the ToT and they have thier hands in hundreds of divine casters, especially since divine spells in FR have to come from a deity. So here's a wrench into things: Let's say that Oridi Malefin, Factor of the Dustmen, Cleric of the Abstract Concept of Death, decides to come to Toril through a gate from Sigil. Is she suddenly and inexplicably stripped of all of her spellcasting abilities as a cleric? Death as a universal concept still exists certainly. And if she still gets her spells, are they perhaps funneled at random through Toril's various deities of death, perhaps unknowingly on their part? Of course, it's a moot point for me because I'd have her still receiving the spells without any interference possible, even if there was an intermediate such as Kelemvor or Velsharoon, between her and the trans-divine concept she worships.
GothicDan 01-03-06, 04:36 PM	That would be the way it would work - there would be an intermediary deity doing it, whether she knew or not.
Kuje31 01-03-06, 05:05 PM	So here's a wrench into things: Let's say that Oridi Malefin, Factor of the Dustmen, Cleric of the Abstract Concept of Death, decides to come to Toril through a gate from Sigil. Is she suddenly and inexplicably stripped of all of her spellcasting abilities as a cleric? Death as a universal concept still exists certainly. And if she still gets her spells, are they perhaps funneled at random through Toril's various deities of death, perhaps unknowingly on their part? Of course, it's a moot point for me because I'd have her still receiving the spells without any interference possible, even if there was an intermediate such as Kelemvor or Velsharoon, between her and the trans-divine concept she worships. If she didn't have a spell key and she stayed in Realmspace, then yes her 3rd level and higher level spells would have to come from a deity.
Shemeska the Marauder 01-03-06, 05:35 PM	If she didn't have a spell key and she stayed in Realmspace, then yes her 3rd level and higher level spells would have to come from a deity. There's no deity involved, nor a specific plane in which a deity granting spells resides, so what relevance would a spell key have? I'm also not aware of any clerics of abstract concepts ever being limited in power in that way when they travelled to various planes (be it clerics of Death, the Great Unknown, etc). Admittedly, since I never played 2e, I'm not keen on the rules regarding spell/power keys.
GothicDan 01-03-06, 05:52 PM	It's true, Shemmy. In 2E, in Realmspace at least, you had to have a deity granting your spells (even if you were not aware of it); the spell key option is presented as a plausible alternative of getting around it. No Spelljammer or Planescape supplements ever changed this. It is most likely a manifestion of Lord AO's will within his Crystal Sphere.
Kuje31 01-03-06, 06:21 PM	There's no deity involved, nor a specific plane in which a deity granting spells resides, so what relevance would a spell key have? I'm also not aware of any clerics of abstract concepts ever being limited in power in that way when they travelled to various planes (be it clerics of Death, the Great Unknown, etc). Admittedly, since I never played 2e, I'm not keen on the rules regarding spell/power keys. As Gothic said, the key would allow you to get spells without a deity but sooner or later, if you stayed in Realmspace, you would need to choose a deity to get divine spells of 3rd level and higher. Concordance of Arcane Space, in the Spelljammer box set, page 17, "A cleric receives his spells through the officies of his deity, and his deity's effectiveness ends at the crystal shell. ... However, a cleric may not regain spells above 2nd level while in the phlo. This is because he remains out of direct contact with his deity.... A cleric who enters a foreign crystal shell is similarly restricted. The only exceptions to this occur when a cleric's deity (or a similar power) is recognized in the foreign shell or the cleric casts a successful gate spell, affording his deity access to the foreign shell." Ed has also said basically what the spelljammer book says. Up to 2nd level spells can be gotten by willpower, the rest come from deities. Of course, you can use a key to also get access to those spells or use an icon, which is detailed in the Spacefarer's Handbook. "July 13, 2005: Hello again, fellow scribes. Kuje, Ed hasn’t forgotten your Purple Lady queries, and will reply soon. In the meantime, however, he answers your divine spells question: In 2nd Edition, 1st and 2nd level spells could be gained or renewed without direct connection to any deity (and so were obtainable during a Godswar, as I suggested in DRAGON #54, and we later all saw in the Time of Troubles). As a general rule, divine spells should be granted by deities (or their servant creatures) only as a result of direct prayer: in other words, yes, divine casters must worship a specific deity and not a cause or broad aspect. However (weasel time), there will be exceptions, because in the endless game of one-up-god-ship that Faerűnian deities play, subtly struggling for supremacy over each other, dominance over intelligent races and events that affect their societies, and defense of personal portfolios, gods (and their loyal servant creatures) will often grant spells to mortals “out of the blue,” or under false pretenses, or whatever - - just to try to influence those events and achieve some unknown-to-mortals aim or temporary victory in the ongoing godly struggle. As I’ve said before, there are secrets about the gods I can’t yet reveal, but all of this boils down to: MOST divine casters get their spells by praying directly to a deity and serving that deity adequately (serve poorly, and your prayers may not be answered at all; serve superbly, and you may even receive extra magic), but A FEW divine casters may, for indefinite periods, receive spells when venerating only a cause, broad aspect, or even a dead or “the wrong” god. So saith Ed. Exhibiting his usual love for compromise and all-inclusive attempts to please. love to all, THO"
Shemeska the Marauder 01-03-06, 07:00 PM	*nodding* I can accept that, but I'm not entirely convinced that it addresses the specific case involved here. The 'deity' or equivalent force in question, isn't pinned down to a specific plane or prime material world, so where then do you draw boundaries for its presence? I'd argue that you can't. *waffles* However, I'm perfectly willing to accept that as a manifestation of Ao's will, Toril specific rules might impinge upon things. (Sort of like the deific disconnect present on Athas for instance, though whatever causes that is presumably caused by something different).
Kuje31 01-03-06, 07:02 PM	*nodding* I can accept that, but I'm not entirely convinced that it addresses the specific case involved here. The 'deity' or equivalent force in question, isn't pinned down to a specific plane or prime material world, so where then do you draw boundaries for its presence? I'd argue that you can't. *waffles* However, I'm perfectly willing to accept that as a manifestation of Ao's will, Toril specific rules might impinge upon things. (Sort of like the deific disconnect present on Athas for instance, though whatever causes that is presumably caused by something different). However, the specific force of death for the Faerun pantheon is Kelemvor, or the other deities of the dead/death for the demihuman pantheons, etc. Chauntea is Toril, Selune is the moon, etc. So if you worship the moon or death of the Faerun pantheon, etc, you are worshipping Selune or Kelemvor, etc. Or if you worship the moon in the elven pantheon, then you worship Sehanine, etc.
Lord Karsus 01-03-06, 07:29 PM	However, the specific force of death in FR is Kelemvor, or the other deities of the dead/death for the demihumans, etc. Chauntea is Toril, Selune is the moon, etc. So if you worship the moon or death of the Faerun pantheon, etc, you are worshipping Selune or Kelemvor, etc. -Yes, this makes sense. On the Moonshaes, they worship the Earthmother, tho has since become Chauntea. I am sure that the average farmer on the islands is not aware of the change from Earthmother to Chauntea. They think they're worshipping the land around them (nature), but in reality, they are worshipping Chauntea. Makes sense to me.
Shemeska the Marauder 01-03-06, 07:35 PM	However, the specific force of death in FR is Kelemvor, or the other deities of the dead/death for the demihumans, etc. Chauntea is Toril, Selune is the moon, etc. So if you worship the moon or death of the Faerun pantheon, etc, you are worshipping Selune or Kelemvor, etc. Bah. He holds death within his portfolio, but he isn't the universal concept of Death itself, as an abstract force. It's even more than the difference between a mortal mass murderer who kills indescriminantly, versus an Abyssal Lord who technically -is- random slaughter taken physical form. Kelemvor holds death within his responsibility as a deity, but he's not that concept itself, he's just it's Torilian building superintendant, so to speak.
Kuje31 01-03-06, 07:37 PM	Bah. He holds death within his portfolio, but he isn't the universal concept of Death itself, as an abstract force. It's even more than the difference between a mortal mass murderer who kills indescriminantly, versus an Abyssal Lord who technically -is- random slaughter taken physical form. Kelemvor holds death within his responsibility as a deity, but he's not that concept itself, he's just it's Torilian building superintendant, so to speak. Wrong. In Realmspace is he one of the forces of Death. This is no different then Mystra being the Weave. Selune being the Moon, Chauntea being Toril/Faerun, etc. Page 233 of the FRCS backs this up, "The deity's portfolio is the topics, ideas, or emotions over which the deity has dominion, power, and control. No two beings within the same pantheon may hold the same concept in thier portfolios." Faiths & Avatars page 20 says the same thing, "These are the topics, things, ideas, or emotions over which the deity has dominion, power, and control and about which the deity is concerned." Thus if you worship Death in the Faerun pantheon, you are worshipping Kelemvor. Etc.
Shemeska the Marauder 01-03-06, 08:14 PM	Wrong. In Realmspace is he one of the forces of Death. This is no different then Mystra being the Weave. Selune being the Moon, Chauntea being Toril/Faerun, etc. Page 233 of the FRCS backs this up, "The deity's portfolio is the topics, ideas, or emotions over which the deity has dominion, power, and control. No two beings within the same pantheon may hold the same concept in thier portfolios." Faiths & Avatars page 20 says the same thing, "These are the topics, things, ideas, or emotions over which the deity has dominion, power, and control and about which the deity is concerned." Thus if you worship Death in the Faerun pantheon, you are worshipping Kelemvor. Etc. Allow me to nitpick then, for the sake of nitpicking. He holds sway over that concept of death, he promotes that concept, but he isn't that concept as it exists in the abstract. If the Torillian deity of death -is- death in the abstract, could people not die during the periods following the obliteration of Myrkul, or the transition between Cyric and Kelemvor, or the indeterminate period between Jergal and Myrkul. Death is a concept that exists outside and beyond the bounds of Toril, so Kelemvor might promote it within the bounds of Toril, but he's not that concept itself, though the distinction might be purely academic on some level given his influence and power on Toril. I think there's a difference here between a local and a universal concept. Selune might indeed BE Toril's moon, and Chauntea might BE Toril itself, but it's a big difference between them and calling Kelemvor the universal concept of Death. And on a bit of an aside perhaps, Mystra is the Weave, but the Weave is only magic as it pertains to Toril, not anywhere else in the universe. You could make the argument that mystra doesn't exemplify the universal concept of magic, be a cantrip, or Vecna's Serpent on the other end of the scale, she just happens to be the serving wench handing out the drinks at the mage bar known as Toril, so to speak.
Kuje31 01-03-06, 08:29 PM	Allow me to nitpick then, for the sake of nitpicking. He holds sway over that concept of death, he promotes that concept, but he isn't that concept as it exists in the abstract. If the Torillian deity of death -is- death in the abstract, could people not die during the periods following the obliteration of Myrkul, or the transition between Cyric and Kelemvor, or the indeterminate period between Jergal and Myrkul. Death is a concept that exists outside and beyond the bounds of Toril, so Kelemvor might promote it within the bounds of Toril, but he's not that concept itself, though the distinction might be purely academic on some level given his influence and power on Toril. I think there's a difference here between a local and a universal concept. Selune might indeed BE Toril's moon, and Chauntea might BE Toril itself, but it's a big difference between them and calling Kelemvor the universal concept of Death. And on a bit of an aside perhaps, Mystra is the Weave, but the Weave is only magic as it pertains to Toril, not anywhere else in the universe. You could make the argument that mystra doesn't exemplify the universal concept of magic, be a cantrip, or Vecna's Serpent on the other end of the scale, she just happens to be the serving wench handing out the drinks at the mage bar known as Toril, so to speak. As I said, in Realmspace he is one of the deities of Death and not death. Sehanine is another, etc. This is NO different then Selune being the Moon, as is Sehanine for the elves. Mystra being the Weave and Magic, etc. Oh and there is no might about these things, they ARE those things in Realmspace or FR's Prime. If we are discussing the outer planes, which we are not, then this would change but since we are not discussing the outer planes and we are discussing FR's Prime or Crystal Sphere, then as a deity of the Dead/Death, Kel is that force for the Faerun pantheon. But forget it, this is getting tedious and so I'm done debating this with you.
Zevox 01-03-06, 09:34 PM	*shrugs* This decision is really a personal choice. Officially, if he plays in the Realms and doesn't worship a deity, he doesn't get divine spells, period. Personally, I prefer that - the concept of being able to pull divine magic out of thin air due to a devotion to an abstract concept (whether that be an alignment or some concept related to one's alignment as with Clerics/Paladins or nature as with Druids/Rangers) is something I've disliked since the moment I found it in the PHB. If you want to permit it, however, its entirely up to you. I suppose, if you wanted to keep the rule but let this guy go on as is, you could say some deity has taken a secret interest in him and is providing him with spells without his knowledge. This could be an interesting way to go about it, depending on why said deity is interested in him. If the Torillian deity of death -is- death in the abstract, could people not die during the periods following the obliteration of Myrkul, or the transition between Cyric and Kelemvor, or the indeterminate period between Jergal and Myrkul. Actually, in Prince of Lies, there was mention of (and a showing of a few examples of) the fact that, when Cyric was removed as God of Death and the Dead, no one on Faerűn could die until Kelemvor's enstatement a few hours later. Specifically, it showed some Zhentilar fighting Gnolls and being unable to die after being hit by crossbow bolts in various places (a living nightmare for them), an old man who tried to poison himself and wound up having to feel this poison do its work throughout the hours until Kel was enstated, and a victim being flayed alive (and in other ways tortured) by a Drow who continued to live well after most would have died (which the Drow took as a "gift from the Gods"). I can't say the same about the time after Myrkul's death, but that could perhaps be explained - Ao may have instituted a countermeasure during the ToT since the Gods weren't around to take care of things anyway. As for Jergal to Myrkul, *shrugs* we have too little info about that event, but presumably the swap may have been instantaneous, with Jergal holding onto the portfolio until it was decided who would get and then handing his authority over to Myrkul as soon as that was done. Zevox
BadCatMan 01-03-06, 10:38 PM	I've never thought of druid/ranger magic as being divine. I always think of it as nature magic. It just happens to share the same casting rules. So then there's arcane, divine and natural (plus psionics and the new incarnum). While on the difficult topic of theology, is it possible to have a freelance cleric in FR? Say on Wednesdays the freelance cleric promotes Lathander in exchange for spells and temple benefits, Thursday its Tyr, and Friday he promotes Cyric for example. Each day at prayer time the cleric makes a deal with a different god, preaching for them in exchange for spellcasting and the like. At the end, the cleric commends their soul to whichever god happened to be their best client. The above gods are an example. Actually, I think the freelance cleric would get the best business by promoting the small gods of the Realms, the lesser dieties and demigods, the ones with very few followers and presence. These gods would need the advertising. Domains would be tricky (I guess the cleric would take a minor neutral god of trade or something as a personal diety), and the character would require some very good diplomacy skills to work with opposing gods. Otherwise, it would be more of a roleplaying thing. Would it work? [I'm playing a freelance cleric (technically of Farlangh or however you spell it) in the Temple of Elemental Evil computer game. She's converted people to and from St Cuthbert and the Druids, and is pretending to join the Temple and its Zuggtmoy. Its been the best part of an otherwise dull game, and a perfect excuse for quest hogging.]
GothicDan 01-03-06, 10:52 PM	I am stupid. Kuje pointed out my misread of the post above. Basically, a Cleric has to be sincere to the deity (or deities, in past lore) that they could worship and gain power from. No deity is going to want someone who is their priest one day and the next could be attacking his or her own faithful.
Mulan Rogue 01-04-06, 06:22 PM	I would allow a godless divine caster and secretly make a note behind my DM screen on who is giving the power to this "godless" caster. Surely the gods can use the ignorant as pawns?
Slime Lord 01-04-06, 07:58 PM	I would allow a godless divine caster and secretly make a note behind my DM screen on who is giving the power to this "godless" caster. Surely the gods can use the ignorant as pawns? Of course not. Evil ones would love to give a bit o'power if you ask me, specially if he's an Evil Natured one...I can't think who is the 'evil'd nature deity is, but he'd be good..
Mulan Rogue 01-04-06, 08:10 PM	Of course not. Evil ones would love to give a bit o'power if you ask me, specially if he's an Evil Natured one...I can't think who is the 'evil'd nature deity is, but he'd be good.. What about gods who want to remain anonymous and want to use (or guide) people to do their dirty work (good deeds) without any comeback or fall out from other interefering deities? I could see someone reckless and very pro-active (like Lathander) doing this. A way for deitys to furthur their own goals without sticking one of their badges on a mortal?
LucyWanabe 01-04-06, 09:30 PM	Malar. I think he'd get a kick out of this druid.
Slime Lord 01-05-06, 08:18 AM	Malar. I think he'd get a kick out of this druid. yes, Malar. I think Malar would influence this druid, even if this druid feels he is good. Then, you could easily have like..Mielikki get involved once your PC in question is turning evil.
Ardashir 01-06-06, 01:12 PM	Of course not. Evil ones would love to give a bit o'power if you ask me, specially if he's an Evil Natured one...I can't think who is the 'evil'd nature deity is, but he'd be good.. There are several evil nature deities in the Realms. Talos is the biggest and baddest, but then you've got Malar, Umberlee, and Auril. Even Talona could be seen as an evil nature deity; her Blightlords seem to see her as such. For that matter, Silvanus can have evil druids. (Enough corrupt paladins! Let's get some corrupt-evil druids!)
GothicDan 01-06-06, 01:19 PM	No! Only TN Druids, darn it. ;)
Imruphel 01-08-06, 09:01 AM	Champions of Ruin (sadly/unfortunately) now officially includes that druids and rangers of the Realms do not need to worship a deity in order to be granted spells; they can simply draw their power from nature itself. This is mentioned in connection with Lossarwyn (sp?) the Ice Lich and the Eldreth Veluuthara. The Ice Lich is noted as having taught this technique to members of the EV. Personally, I think it's a crock: I have always preferred, for flavour reasons, clerics, druids and other divine spellcasters actually drawing their power from a specific deity.
Slime Lord 01-08-06, 09:09 AM	Champions of Ruin (sadly/unfortunately) now officially includes that druids and rangers of the Realms do not need to worship a deity in order to be granted spells; they can simply draw their power from nature itself. This is mentioned in connection with Lossarwyn (sp?) the Ice Lich and the Eldreth Veluuthara. The Ice Lich is noted as having taught this technique to members of the EV. Personally, I think it's a crock: I have always preferred, for flavour reasons, clerics, druids and other divine spellcasters actually drawing their power from a specific deity. Ruin is not a FR Only product. Thus meaning what it says doesn't necessearly apply to Realms. I, like many others here, think Druids do need to draw power from a deity, escpeially at first. Sure, as they get more advance you could argue their so attuned to the 'product' (say Malar's side, or Umberlee's, Chaunteas or Mielikki, etc.) that they don't need to rely on them as much, but they are that much close to their deity for being so much more attuned.
Arivia 01-08-06, 09:14 AM	Ruin is not a FR Only product. Thus meaning what it says doesn't necessearly apply to Realms. I, like many others here, think Druids do need to draw power from a deity, escpeially at first. Sure, as they get more advance you could argue their so attuned to the 'product' (say Malar's side, or Umberlee's, Chaunteas or Mielikki, etc.) that they don't need to rely on them as much, but they are that much close to their deity for being so much more attuned. Um, what are you on? It is an official Realms product, with the Realms logo on it, and as such, does set Realms canon.
Slime Lord 01-08-06, 09:27 AM	Um, what are you on? It is an official Realms product, with the Realms logo on it, and as such, does set Realms canon. Ooh don't test me sweetie :). I've had only 4 hours of sleep last night, so apologies for my lack of memory. Reguardless, the product states they don't need to. Reguardless, Chauntea is Toril, so either way the cookie crumbles, a deity is involved. An the Atheist Druid is still doing some form of work for a deity then if you ask me.
GothicDan 01-08-06, 01:08 PM	Champions of Ruin, or at least that bit about the Druid, is mostly ignored by the vast majority of players who hold any sense of sanctity for lore. Just because someone has stamped the FR logo on something doesn't mean it's appropriate to the Realms or consistent with past lore. Look at all of the Kara-Tur and Zakhara stuff that was put out; perhaps decent settings in their own rights (though not by me0, but certainly had no reason to be in the Realms. The same holds true for the Druid. As with many other things in Champions of Ruin, which, from what I've heard and read, seems to be one of the most horrible 3E books put out so far other than a few rare occasions, such as those sections which Mr. Boyd worked on, putting TONS of detail of history and the like in. No matter what the book says, ALL other lore, and Ed Greenwood currently, states that ALL divine casters need divine patrons, even if they don't know them. And Ed Greenwood sets Realms canon, too.
Kuje31 01-08-06, 01:33 PM	Champions of Ruin (sadly/unfortunately) now officially includes that druids and rangers of the Realms do not need to worship a deity in order to be granted spells; they can simply draw their power from nature itself. This is mentioned in connection with Lossarwyn (sp?) the Ice Lich and the Eldreth Veluuthara. The Ice Lich is noted as having taught this technique to members of the EV. Personally, I think it's a crock: I have always preferred, for flavour reasons, clerics, druids and other divine spellcasters actually drawing their power from a specific deity. And this is why I posted my reply from Ed about that bit of text. :)
KnightErrantJR 01-08-06, 05:40 PM	When we hashed this out at Candlekeep, the consensus was (especially after getting Ed's "no divine spells without a divine patron" ruling) that the Eldreth Veluuthra THINK they are getting divine spells from worshiping nature itself. That doesn't mean that is what is really happening, and essentially it means that some god finds it advantageous to advance divine casters in the Eldreth Veluuthra, even if they don't get the usual "kickback" from having worshippers gaining spells from them. After debating a lot of gods, we came up with several that might want to do this, though I personally liked the idea of Ghaunadaur doing this, since he would be granting nature spells (not too hard for the Elder Elemental God) and he has corrupted elves in the past, and he would be turning the elves against the Seldarine, since they resent the fact that Corellon and the others don't see their actions as serving elvenkind, even though they are sure they are. In first and second edition, first and second level spells could be accessed through strong beliefs, so requireing a divine caster for more powerful abilities really isn't new. And Toril isn't the only place where divine casters required a divine patron. Up until the Age of Mortals, in DragonLance you wouldn't get anything from worshipping a concept either. The funny thing is, while I disliked the arbitrary splitting of the multiverse, arguements like this sometimes appear to give fuel to why it happened. When everything is connected, and a product line like Planescape comes out and says that concepts can provide divine magic, then people start saying that Toril needs to conform to the "big picture" because it works out in the planes. This dispite the fact that it contradicts all the novels, sourcebooks, and personal opinions of the designers and authors working on the setting, and violates one of the key themes or conventions of the setting on its ear. So saying that its all in different universes makes these arguments shake out like this, "that's not how it works in this universe."
GothicDan 01-08-06, 06:01 PM	The same could be said of Crystal Spheres. Since an Overgod rules each one, he can effectively set all of the rules in his Crystal Sphere as if it was his own "little universe." Thus, base Prime Material Plane magical effects would only be the default in areas where Overgods did not rule. It's just like on the Outer Planes, really, where deities and other powerful beings can, via sheer force of will, overwhelm the attributes that are the "default" of a plane. So, really, one could say that it is still the power of belief, it's just that AO is the most powerful "cleric," and his belief thus rules. ;)