Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chloramantis 07-20-05, 10:28 AM	Ok, How could an army led by The Nefarious Trio (3 nycaloths) destroy the greatest kingdom ever (in my opinion)? I understand there were many demons, orcs, gnolls, etc... But, how could it have happened? The nycaloths are, by far, not the most powerful demons out there. After reading the Last Mythal books, an elven crusade of 4,500 seems to easily handle all of Sarya's demons and devils, including her Fey'ri. I'm just looking for numbers. How many elves defended Myth Drannor? What's a good number for the Army of Darkness? I also like how the Army of Darkness was broken down into companies (their names slip my mind). Also, does anyone have good info on the Arms-Major and Arms-Captain, they were awesome, especially how they died together.
GothicDan 07-20-05, 11:10 AM	First of all, nycaloths are not Demons. They are Fiends, they are Yugoloths, they are even Daemons. But they are not Demons. And they are indeed pretty powerful. And The Fall of Myth Drannor supplement has exhaustive, wonderful detailing of the Army of Darkness and the troops of Myth Drannor, in terms of numbers, formations, officers, magical items, etc.
Chloramantis 07-20-05, 11:45 AM	I'm talking about stuff other than those sources. I have all of those. I was using the "demons" as a generic term. I should have used fiends, but I didn't. I don't need to be scolded about terminology.
GothicDan 07-20-05, 11:57 AM	What other sources do you want? :) It gives a breakdown for the numbers. Do you think that those numbers are wrong or inconclusive? You can find overall army numbers via multiplication. And I wasn't scolding; I was correcting. In the past 15 minutes, I've seen at least 2 other posters who referred to various Fiends by the wrong labels, hence my correcting. I am not psychic, and thus did not know that you mentally misplaced the correct term. If I was scolding, my diction would have been full of bitterness and sarcasm, I assure you.
Chloramantis 07-20-05, 12:10 PM	What other sources do you want? :) It gives a breakdown for the numbers. Do you think that those numbers are wrong or inconclusive? You can find overall army numbers via multiplication. And I wasn't scolding; I was correcting. In the past 15 minutes, I've seen at least 2 other posters who referred to various Fiends by the wrong labels, hence my correcting. I am not psychic, and thus did not know that you mentally misplaced the correct term. If I was scolding, my diction would have been full of bitterness and sarcasm, I assure you. Sorry, GD. I just love the hell out of the fiends and I didn't mean to miss represent them. I'm not sure I have the numbers correct, but it seems to me that Sarya's forces with all kinds of "fiends" seems to be much more powereful than a yugoloth army. I will go home and look for exact numbers, I've been meaning to do so. On the topic of fiends, I have always thought the ghereleths? were cool. I noticed their appearance has changed a bit from 2e to 3e. I'm not sure of the books, but I think the Fiends from 2e and the monsterous manuals from 3e. I like the 2e versions better.
GothicDan 07-20-05, 12:14 PM	It's okay; sometimes I get pretty snappy too! And I haven't read the Last Mythal trilogy, because, frankly, it disgusts me. I won't go into further detail than that. But remember that the Army of Darkness had thousands of Mezzoloths. And Mezzoloths were no laughing matter, at least in 2E! They were more powerful, combat-wise, than Yugoloths greater in status than themselves. It was only their limited intelligence that kept them suboordinate. Of course you like the 2E ones better. 2E was better in almost all ways. ;) Almost, mind you. I approve of BAB, Saves, and Skills.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-20-05, 10:27 PM	It's okay; sometimes I get pretty snappy too! And I haven't read the Last Mythal trilogy, because, frankly, it disgusts me. I won't go into further detail than that. But remember that the Army of Darkness had thousands of Mezzoloths. And Mezzoloths were no laughing matter, at least in 2E! They were more powerful, combat-wise, than Yugoloths greater in status than themselves. It was only their limited intelligence that kept them suboordinate. Of course you like the 2E ones better. 2E was better in almost all ways. ;) Almost, mind you. I approve of BAB, Saves, and Skills. Yugoloths as a race are frighteningly bottomheavy in terms of raw physical toughness. Mezzoloths, the least of the species, are just fraggin butch compared to least demons or least devils. A mezzoloth could take on a dozen or more dretches or lemures, and of course any dead mezzoloth is immediately replaced by a new one back on their native plane the moment the other dies. The lower caste Yugoloths are frikken combat machines... but given that they're all Blood War fodder, sold and traded by their superiors, it makes sense. To that extent you could almost seperate lesser yugoloths and greater yugoloths into two seperate groupings. And nycaloths are the least of the greater 'loths, and 3 of them took down myth drannor. Yummy.
Darrian 07-21-05, 12:24 AM	Wouldn't it be great if WotC actually created some Yugoloth lords and put them out in the next Manual or whatever they print? There are Yugoloth lords aren't there? Darrian (speaking of frighteningly bottomheavy, oh nevermind)
Shemeska the Marauder 07-21-05, 12:29 AM	Wouldn't it be great if WotC actually created some Yugoloth lords and put them out in the next Manual or whatever they print? There are Yugoloth lords aren't there? Darrian (speaking of frighteningly bottomheavy, oh nevermind) Oh heck yes, they just haven't mentioned more than 3 of them in 3e, and none of them have been written up. The General of Gehenna Mydianchlarus, Oinoloth of the Wasting Tower of Khin-Oin Anthraxus, former Oinoloth Helekanalaith the Keeper of the Tower Arcane Cerlic the Marraenoloth Lord the other so-called Altraloths (Cholerix, Bubonix, Taba, Xenghara, Typhus) The various Baernaloths, of whom only Daru Ib Shamiq has been named Larsdana Apt Neut (former Keeper of the Tower Arcane) There's the various Baernaloths whom I've written up floating around, one of which I recently posted on Planewalker
Sigurd van Norhusen 07-21-05, 03:59 AM	Well, since we are already discussing Yugoloth lords... When I read about Malkizid in Lost Empires of Faerūn, I felt mightily disappointed (the discrepancy in lothy treatment between the Maeldur and the Malkizid is too large). Now that I know that he's supposed to have been the leader of the Trio Nefarious, I am not sure if he is the proverbial bunny pulled out of the hat in 3rd edition, or if I simply overlooked any hints towards him in the old books. Because if he is a 3.x invention, I will gladly ignore him. :P
Darrian 07-21-05, 08:22 AM	Maeldur? Who is this Maeldur you speak of? Darrian
tamashastrife 07-21-05, 10:21 AM	Malkizid being a fallen Solar made me want to puke. Why would a CG Pantheon have LG servants? Especially when Eladrins are already tied to the Elven Pantheon. It just makes no sense. Other than that, I LOVE the idea of a fallen servant of the Seldarine being the mastermind behind the Fall of Myth Drannor. On that note, what is the most powerful Eladrin out there? Gaehles??? PS: I can't remember how to spell Eladrin lol
Chloramantis 07-21-05, 10:36 AM	Tulani are the most powerful Eladrins. I'm sure a a CG god wouldn't turn away a LG follower? I'm not sure I understand what you mean?
Darrian 07-21-05, 10:41 AM	I think he means alignment uniformity on the good side. Similiar to Evil pantheons and their fiendish servants. One would not expect Bane to have a demon servant any more than they would expect Cyric to have a Pit Fiend general. Could they? Sure, but why? Darrian (The CE's go with the CE's and the LE's go with the LE's)
tamashastrife 07-21-05, 10:52 AM	That's exactly what I mean. All previous work supports Gods having like-aligned servants. Even for Clerics, you can only be one step away from your God. That's why I really don't understand why an LG Celestial would serve CG Dieties. By the logic of letting a Solar serve CG gods, a CG god could have Slaad or even Tanar'ri servants. Of course the Elves and Elven Pantheon are kind of weird in that there seems to be a lot of Lawfulness among them despite their Chaotic nature which could explain it some but I still very much dislike the idea of having a Solar serve the Elven Pantheon and so I will remake Malkizid to be an Eladrin for my campaign. In which book can I find the Tulani?
yeti 07-21-05, 12:21 PM	I think you are confusing the alignment of a Solar with the alignment of Archons. Archons have an alignment of LG while Solars have an alignment of good (any). Therefore its totally reasonable for a CG godess to have a Solar servant with an alignment of CG.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-21-05, 03:46 PM	In which book can I find the Tulani? BoED has the Tulani for 3e. The best flavor for them comes from the Planescape Monstrous Compendium II. And Solars and all other Aasimon (Angels) just mirror the alignment of their patron deity, rather than serve/exemplify a plane or abstract alignment like archons/guardinals/eladrin etc.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-21-05, 04:13 PM	Maeldur? Who is this Maeldur you speak of? Darrian Maeldur et Kavurik, one of the first inhabitants of Mount Celestia, possibly a Solar, possibly one of the first Archons. His exact species was never mentioned, just that he was a celestial and a native of the 'Celestial Mount'. Maeldur was corrupted by the Baernaloth named Daru ib Shamiq, warped by the magic of the Baern, and used as a sort of living teleportation device by the yugoloths. They imparted the names of every living fiend to the Maeldur, and read to it the name of every newborn fiend as it was created, and in doing so, any fiend whose name the Maeldur knew, was capable of using what that fiend perceived to be its own innate teleportation ability. The 'loths, by virtue of their creators the Baern, using the mind and flesh of the fallen celestial known as Maeldur, gave the fiends their teleport ability. This ability was briefly lost during the events in 'Squaring the Circle' in 'Hellbound: The Blood War' in which the Maeldur learned its own name and dumped itself in the Styx in an attempt to mercifully forget what the fiends had said to it and shown it over the millennia. In the end, the yugoloths regained the Maeldur and began returning its granted powers to the other fiends with as little disruption as possible. The entire event was passed off as some random quirk of the planes. It's possible though that certain Abyssal Lords or Noble Baatezu might have since discovered some fragment of the truth behind it, but the 'loths tried their best to bury the events. Right here (http://www.planewalker.com/forums/viewTopic.php?intTopicID=737) is my own fictional retelling of the story of Daru and the Maeldur, with a decidedly more grim portrayal of Daru, not as a truly sorry, apathetic figure who no longer cares about it all, but as a consumate deceiver of all involved.
GothicDan 07-21-05, 04:44 PM	I tend to ignore the entire idea of fiends behind the Crown Wars. Corellon allowing his children to work things out on their own without stepping in is fine and dandy from a CG deity. Him allowing a blatantly Evil Fiend to manipulate his people, however, is something else entirely. And yes, he would have indeed been aware of the actions of a non-divine (powerful, but still non-divine) creature directly influencing the Vyshaan. Also: Tulani rock.
the.real.elwood 07-21-05, 06:00 PM	The Trio Nefarious destroyed Myth Drannor in no small part because Myth Drannor was falling apart anyways. There was lots of infighting between the various aristocratic families and between the various races inhabiting Myth Drannor. When the Army of Darkness attacked, Myth Drannor wasn't at full strength, and consequently unable to effectively defend itself. Regardless, they were still able to defeat the Trio Nefarious, but Myth Drannor was also destroyed in the process.
Darrian 07-21-05, 06:21 PM	Oh definitely. There is no way the Army of Darkness defeats Myth Drannor at Myth Drannors height. However, I think it is safe to say that the Myth Drannor that fell was still the greatest city in history since. It is true that the trio did die in the attack but in the end the Army of Darkness was dancing a jig in the burned out remains of the greatest city in the history of the Forgotten Realms. Darrian
BrianCritchley 07-22-05, 11:53 PM	I tend to ignore the entire idea of fiends behind the Crown Wars. Corellon allowing his children to work things out on their own without stepping in is fine and dandy from a CG deity. Him allowing a blatantly Evil Fiend to manipulate his people, however, is something else entirely. And yes, he would have indeed been aware of the actions of a non-divine (powerful, but still non-divine) creature directly influencing the Vyshaan. Also: Tulani rock. on the other hand perhaps corellon simply wished to let the Vyshaan make their mistake and learn from it, there comes a time uin the rearing of children where you have to step back and let your child commit a mistake or 10
Dark_beebles 07-23-05, 02:59 AM	Malkizid being a fallen Solar made me want to puke. Why would a CG Pantheon have LG servants? Especially when Eladrins are already tied to the Elven Pantheon. It just makes no sense. Other than that, I LOVE the idea of a fallen servant of the Seldarine being the mastermind behind the Fall of Myth Drannor. On that note, what is the most powerful Eladrin out there? Gaehles??? PS: I can't remember how to spell Eladrin lol Not all solars are LG it states "any good".
GothicDan 07-23-05, 07:12 PM	on the other hand perhaps corellon simply wished to let the Vyshaan make their mistake and learn from it, there comes a time uin the rearing of children where you have to step back and let your child commit a mistake or 10 Which would have been completely plausible in the original context of the Crown War, but not that espoused in LEoF. Telling your two children who are fighting to "figure it out themselves" is different then allowing a hostile stranger to come in and egg them on.
BrianCritchley 07-24-05, 02:25 AM	Which would have been completely plausible in the original context of the Crown War, but not that espoused in LEoF. Telling your two children who are fighting to "figure it out themselves" is different then allowing a hostile stranger to come in and egg them on. on the other hand short of outright intervening in the war, a no no, how could he have solved it, I suspect Ao has rules that state you cannot force a race how to worship. although this was conveninatly ignored in the case of the drow. I'll be the first to admit I wonder how the hell the sunelves escaped the punishment of the drow.
ElGrecoETAC 07-24-05, 11:03 AM	... Him allowing a blatantly Evil Fiend to manipulate his people, however, is something else entirely. Why? And yes, he would have indeed been aware of the actions of a non-divine (powerful, but still non-divine) creature directly influencing the Vyshaan. Of course he would. It doesn't mean that he had the mandate to step in simply because someone got a hold of power over the Elves or became a real threat to them. The idea that a deity could step in a situation like that is not only contrived--it pretty much guarantees that evil would never be a real, viable threat. IMHO, the scenario was handled well. The Vyshaan fell under Malkizid's sway because they fell into hubris, arrogance, megalomania, etc. The Elves' great mistake is that the rest of their realms chose to react to their aggression on a similar level (High Magic super spells, out and out war, etc.). Correllon and the Seldarine simply weren't appealed to in a way that could have helped the issue. By the time the Crown Wars came, the priesthood was either too weak to act against the tide of doom, or unwilling to do so (subject to the same prejudices and arrogance as the rest of the people). Most "good guy heroes" were more interested in revenge and reciprocity than they were in figuring out the cause of the evil in their midst. You had fewer Shrinshees, Araevins, and Josidiahs and more Nimesins, Staryms, etc. That, in my eyes, is the true cause of the fall of the Elven people. It's the reason for their present state of being. Having a contrived, "Deus Ex Machina" effect that prevents events like this from happening would be unfortunate, in my opinion. And you nailed it in the head with "non-divine". Had Malkizid been a divine power, Correllon would have obviously been free to act. As it was, Malkizid subverting the Vyshaan was no more actionable than Karsus getting ready to throw the Weave for a loop and Mystra not doing anything about it.
ElGrecoETAC 07-24-05, 11:08 AM	... I'll be the first to admit I wonder how the hell the sunelves escaped the punishment of the drow. You and me both. That is why, in my campaign, Sun Elves are the smallest minority of the surface Elves, with only a few thousand surviving as paragons of their people. The overwhelming majority of their people joined the Illythiri in the Underdark as Drow. I subscribed to the idea of the Illythiri being of dusky, very tan-skinned people prior to the Fall, by the way. The black skin/white hair photo-negative look was applied to any of the Elves found guilty for crimes during that time.
GothicDan 07-24-05, 07:33 PM	on the other hand short of outright intervening in the war, a no no, how could he have solved it, I suspect Ao has rules that state you cannot force a race how to worship. although this was conveninatly ignored in the case of the drow. I'll be the first to admit I wonder how the hell the sunelves escaped the punishment of the drow. Reply With Quote Obviously, as you said, this rule isn't in effect, since the deities of Faerun interfere on a regular basis with various races, Lolth and the Drow in particular. That being said, Corellon wouldn't have had to talk to the Vyshaan at all, considering he could have bound/slain/silenced the fallen solar in question, especially considering it was an ex-proxy of the Seldarine and all.
GothicDan 07-24-05, 07:41 PM	Why? Because it would have gone against his interests, most likely, in the first place, of allowing his children to choose their own path without outside manipulations. Otherwise, he could have stepped in and *****smacked Lolth/Vhaeraun right out of Ilythiir, and he never would have allowed the Vyshaan to do as they did. But Lolth ahd Vhaeraun didn't manipulate the Dark Elves; they were deities known well enough to them before the Crown Wars, and made their nature open to them. Thus, the Ilythiiri chose their own paths, and weren't manipulated into it. Of course he would. It doesn't mean that he had the mandate to step in simply because someone got a hold of power over the Elves or became a real threat to them. The idea that a deity could step in a situation like that is not only contrived--it pretty much guarantees that evil would never be a real, viable threat. It's not contrived at all. The past as is (without the ex-solar idea) is perfectly explainable given Corellon's alignment, dogmas, and the like. The introduction of such evil, manipulative characters into the history of the Crown War, however, actually makes one wonder, "Why the heck wasn't Corellon doing anything?" I could believe him remaining idle while the Vyshaan went about on their own warring against the other Elven nations. While they warred against them, they didn't give in to torture, arsony, slavery, etc. So they may have been evil, but it was by their own choice. Corellon, as a CG deity, would have allowed this, though surely it made him shed a tear. A powerful, outside evil being who is manipulating your children because they have a vendetta against YOU is something different. It's personal, that way, and Corellon wouldn't have allowed it, because no longer were his children completely acting under their own free will. You and me both. Why? The Vyshaan were all executed. They got what they deserved. As a whole, the typical Sun Elf wasn't evil, even in Aryvandaar. This is opposed to Ilythiir, where there were no specific group that gave in to evil; as a whole, the nation fell into evil beyond that of even the Vyshaan, hence the banishment. As a whole, the nation followed Lolth (for the most part), and participated in torture, rape, burning, etc. Aryvandaar, while they warred, did not do this, so the typical foot soldiers probably didn't even engage in much overtly evil activity, even if the Vyshaan did. And Elaine Cunningham, in a response over at Candlekeep, is apparently of this sentiment as well. The only other person who I think would have a better handle than her on the nature of the Crown Wars would possibly be Steven Schend.
ElGrecoETAC 07-24-05, 11:40 PM	First, I want to say that I want to cry because I somehow managed to hit the precise combination of keys needed to restart my PC right as I was getting done with the first attempt at this post. :weep: Because it would have gone against his interests, most likely, in the first place, of allowing his children to choose their own path without outside manipulations. Otherwise, he could have stepped in and *****smacked Lolth/Vhaeraun right out of Ilythiir, and he never would have allowed the Vyshaan to do as they did. Fair enough. My take on this is that, by the time said outsider rolled in, Corellon had precious little say on what was happening in Aryvandaar. The citizenry had long ago stopped ignoring the direction and ideals of the Seldarine in favor of an aggressive, warlike leadership that led them to invade their fellow elves purely for profit and power. I doubt Aryvandaar had more than a token priesthood in place; it striked me as more of an imperialist magocracy of sorts. But Lolth ahd Vhaeraun didn't manipulate the Dark Elves; they were deities known well enough to them before the Crown Wars, and made their nature open to them. Thus, the Ilythiiri chose their own paths, and weren't manipulated into it. ... This is opposed to Ilythiir, where there were no specific group that gave in to evil ... As a whole, the nation followed Lolth (for the most part), and participated in torture, rape, burning, etc. From LEoF, pg. 52: -11,700 The Second Crown War begins. -11,500 Lolth sends the balor lord Wendonai to seduce a high Ilythiiri clan into her service. The church of Lolth rises to prominence. -10,450 ...The Ilythiiri openly begin worshipping ... Ghaunadaur and Lolth. From LEoF, pg. 54: Seeing an opportunity to subvert an entire subrace to evil, Lolth sent the balor Wendonai to Ilythiir. ... Guided by their demonic patrons, the Ilythiiri came to relish warfare and torture and despise elven ideals. It's not contrived at all. The past as is (without the ex-solar idea) is perfectly explainable given Corellon's alignment, dogmas, and the like. The introduction of such evil, manipulative characters into the history of the Crown War, however, actually makes one wonder, "Why the heck wasn't Corellon doing anything?" See above. By the time these outside powers arrived (Malkizid, Wendonai, Lolthites, etc.), the Seldarine likely had little influence on Aryvandaar or Ilythiir. The price of free will, incidentally, is that it gives one the choice to act in a way you may not approve of. It might just lead to the most powerful of your childrens' empires going astray. If that's what the authors were aiming for, and I think it was, then I see it as a valid case of cause and effect. The very free will the sun elves of Aryvandaar enjoyed translated into enough rope to hang themselves morally--setting themselves up for the corruptions of Malkizid. Ditto for the Ilythiiri and Wendonai/Lolth. Whether Corellon has the mandate or ability to crush an outsider corrupting an empire that has forsaken his ethos is an interesting question. He probably still could, but I think he was willing to let it ride and let his children play out their drama. Otherwise, why not crush Lolth as well? By 2E and Elaine's own lore, she was considered more Tanar'ri than anything else following her fall. None of this, IMHO, goes against what was established in the FRCS, or even in 2E supplements like Cormanthyr. I stand ready to be corrected, but I don't recall much 2E FR lore that specifically tells you, the DM, how things actually occurred. Cormanthyr especially tells you what Elves today know, or think they know. LEoF tells you what happened. And Elaine Cunningham, in a response over at Candlekeep, is apparently of this sentiment as well. The only other person who I think would have a better handle than her on the nature of the Crown Wars would possibly be Steven Schend. I respect Elaine, and love her writings. I had always hoped that she would either tackle the Crown Wars in a separate novel series, or that she would have collaborated with the creative team behind products like LEoF. Unfortunately she didn't, and a different group of folks went with a different direction. You don't seem to think that this new direction makes sense, and I disagree with some of the points you use in your argument.
GothicDan 07-25-05, 12:06 AM	Fair enough. My take on this is that, by the time said outsider rolled in, Corellon had precious little say on what was happening in Aryvandaar. The citizenry had long ago stopped ignoring the direction and ideals of the Seldarine in favor of an aggressive, warlike leadership that led them to invade their fellow elves purely for profit and power. I doubt Aryvandaar had more than a token priesthood in place; it striked me as more of an imperialist magocracy of sorts. Really? The Vyshaan didn't seem to like Wizards. They seemed to like killing them. And we haven't heard anything about them being a powerhouse of magic above other ancient Tel'Quessir nations. In fact, Miyeritar (Dark Elf/Wood Elf) was the height of elven magic during this time period. I always viewed the Vyshaan as imperialist fighter-types, myself. However, considering the fact that there were a great many High Magi and Priests of the Seldarine both that cast the High Magic ritual that banished the Drow, we can assume that Aryvandaar and/or a good number of its close allies had the backing of Seldarine clergy. From LEoF, pg. 52: -11,700 The Second Crown War begins. -11,500 Lolth sends the balor lord Wendonai to seduce a high Ilythiiri clan into her service. The church of Lolth rises to prominence. -10,450 ...The Ilythiiri openly begin worshipping ... Ghaunadaur and Lolth. From LEoF, pg. 54: Seeing an opportunity to subvert an entire subrace to evil, Lolth sent the balor Wendonai to Ilythiir. ... Guided by their demonic patrons, the Ilythiiri came to relish warfare and torture and despise elven ideals. Interesting. I was unaware of LEoF pinning down dates so accuratelty, and I bow and admit defeat in this area. However, the events described above only further muddle the reasoning behind the Crown War. It means that the Ilythiiri didn't have any idea, truly, who Lolth and Ghaunadur were, since they were being seduced by said proxy. This means that Corellon, as far as I'm concerned, would have stepped in. And he should have. It's the fact that WotC is trying to fit in little bits of information between the lines without actually changing the main storyline that messes up the overall plot of the Crown Wars making any sense whatsoever. People have been crying for years that Corellon is really an evil bastard (which he obviously isn't, given his CG alignment), and that all Sun Elves are evil (which they clearly aren't, even if, as a whole, they do seem to stray towards it slightly more than say Moon Elves). Now, LEoF just gives readers more of a reason to scream such things, and WotC still gives no reason why Corellon did not step in himself (despite the fact that, as it has been in the Realms regularly, deities do interact with it far more than the deities of, say, Krynn), and why the Sun Elves weren't banished as a whole. In their attempt to add little plot loops throughout the story to make things edgier (the ex-solar who served the Seldarine coming back to bite them in the arse... The irony is so great it makes me cry with its lack of originality.. And mirrored by, O-ho, a fiend! Imagine that!) only actually complicated the overall reasoning behind the Crown Wars (and the conclusions of it) even more. Whether Corellon has the mandate or ability to crush an outsider corrupting an empire that has forsaken his ethos is an interesting question. Well, the question is pretty invariably a yes, unless you know of some written lore that states otherwise? He probably still could, but I think he was willing to let it ride and let his children play out their drama. Otherwise, why not crush Lolth as well? By 2E and Elaine's own lore, she was considered more Tanar'ri than anything else following her fall. Because banishment among elves is worse than death, I think. Hence, the Drow and Lolth were banished (they were uber-evil), while the Vyshaan were executed (since they were the lesser evil - they didn't torture, rape, burn, etc.). War itself isn't evil; it's the methods and reasons for war that are evil. I respect Elaine, and love her writings. I had always hoped that she would either tackle the Crown Wars in a separate novel series, or that she would have collaborated with the creative team behind products like LEoF. Unfortunately she didn't, and a different group of folks went with a different direction. You don't seem to think that this new direction makes sense, and I disagree with some of the points you use in your argument. Mostly, my arguments made perfect sense with the 2E material. With the 3E material, not so much - but instead of things making more sense now, in general, I think they all make less sense, due to WotC adding sudden bit players that really didn't need to be added.
ElGrecoETAC 07-25-05, 01:01 AM	Really? The Vyshaan didn't seem to like Wizards. They seemed to like killing them. And we haven't heard anything about them being a powerhouse of magic above other ancient Tel'Quessir nations. In fact, Miyeritar (Dark Elf/Wood Elf) was the height of elven magic during this time period. The assassinations of the wizards not loyal to the Vyshaanti came only after the 5th Crown War began, at the behest of Malkizid. Prior to this event, the people of Aryvandaar are not mentioned as having any beef with arcane casters. In fact, they strike the first High Magic "super-spell" blow, beginning with the Dark Disaster in the 3rd Crown War. I always viewed the Vyshaan as imperialist fighter-types, myself. However, considering the fact that there were a great many High Magi and Priests of the Seldarine both that cast the High Magic ritual that banished the Drow, we can assume that Aryvandaar and/or a good number of its close allies had the backing of Seldarine clergy. LEoF specifically states that the "remaining elven kingdoms" gathered into a conclave to cast the High Magic which led to the Descent. Given the fact that Aryvandaar had been just as abusive of these realms, it is unlikely that they played a part in the Seldarine-driven super-ritual. The wording of the paragraph suggests that they didn't. However, the events described above only further muddle the reasoning behind the Crown War. It means that the Ilythiiri didn't have any idea, truly, who Lolth and Ghaunadur were, since they were being seduced by said proxy. This means that Corellon, as far as I'm concerned, would have stepped in. And he should have. Ultimately, I think this just goes to show you the degree of free will the elves enjoyed. Wendonai or not, the Ilythiiri, much like the Vyshaanti, had long ago abandoned the ways of the Seldarine. The Ilythiiri didn't yet worship Lolth, but that didn't mean that they were either freedom-loving, good, or in any way in the graces of the Seldarine. They were named drow prior to Wendonai's arrival after all. It's the fact that WotC is trying to fit in little bits of information between the lines without actually changing the main storyline that messes up the overall plot of the Crown Wars making any sense whatsoever. I think that's purely a matter of opinion. And, no offense, I think this is a pretty weak line of argument. LEoF was specifically for people who wanted their campaigns to interact or intersect with these time periods. The "little bits of information" are essential for something like this. This is no different than the filling in of the events surrounding the fall of Cormanthyr, 2E style. People have been crying for years that Corellon is really an evil bastard (which he obviously isn't, given his CG alignment), and that all Sun Elves are evil (which they clearly aren't, even if, as a whole, they do seem to stray towards it slightly more than say Moon Elves). People exagerrate, read too much into things, or don't read things in proper context. The same people also place undue emphasis on CG drow Rangers with two scimitars and Eilistraeen priestesses. I enjoy both, but I don't let them color the obvious nature of the majority of the drow. Similarly, I don't let the occasional baddie sun elf distract me from the fact that his subrace is listed as being predominately CG. ;) Now, LEoF just gives readers more of a reason to scream such things, and WotC still gives no reason why Corellon did not step in himself (despite the fact that, as it has been in the Realms regularly, deities do interact with it far more than the deities of, say, Krynn), and why the Sun Elves weren't banished as a whole. Uhm, in your previous post, you answered both those questions: 1) Free will. 2) The average Vyshaanti, though maybe evil, did not stoop to the level of the Ilythiiri. As far as my campaign is concerned, I simply had most of them banished because I liked the idea of the sun elves being this small community of repentant champions trying to atone for their ancestors' secret, tragic past. In their attempt to add little plot loops throughout the story to make things edgier ... only actually complicated the overall reasoning behind the Crown Wars (and the conclusions of it) even more. I don't think the idea was to make things edgier. As things stood, the context of the Crown Wars was vague, as befitting a time period about which little is known. Complication is going to be inevitable when you try to detail these ancient events. I do find it interesting, though, that you bemoan the "evil" label sun elves so often get saddled with with one breath, but have no problem dismissing a plausible explanation for their ancestors' fall with the other. Because banishment among elves is worse than death, I think. Hence, the Drow and Lolth were banished (they were uber-evil), while the Vyshaan were executed (since they were the lesser evil - they didn't torture, rape, burn, etc.). War itself isn't evil; it's the methods and reasons for war that are evil. I should have been clearer here. I didn't mean to imply outright death. More of a demonstration on what might happen should Lolth not leave well enough alone. Mostly, my arguments made perfect sense with the 2E material. With the 3E material, not so much - but instead of things making more sense now, in general, I think they all make less sense, due to WotC adding sudden bit players that really didn't need to be added. Again, I don't see how the new information conflicts with the 2E material. The old stuff was purposely vague so as to reflect the sort of knowledge elf PCs might come across. The new stuff is only unnecessary if you don't want to know how things came to be.
GothicDan 07-25-05, 02:11 AM	The assassinations of the wizards not loyal to the Vyshaanti came only after the 5th Crown War began, at the behest of Malkizid. Prior to this event, the people of Aryvandaar are not mentioned as having any beef with arcane casters. In fact, they strike the first High Magic "super-spell" blow, beginning with the Dark Disaster in the 3rd Crown War. Once more, this is evidence new from 3E that was not the same in 2E. Originally, there was no specific time in which the assassination of wizards came about from Aryvandaar, and it was done by the Vyshaan's own power. And in 2E, it still wasn't certain who exactly caused the Dark Disaster. This is more evidence that really does lead in a completely opposite direction from the way information was laid out in 2E. So that's one strike in making the Sun Elves seem more evil in 3E than they were in 2E. LEoF specifically states that the "remaining elven kingdoms" gathered into a conclave to cast the High Magic which led to the Descent. Given the fact that Aryvandaar had been just as abusive of these realms, it is unlikely that they played a part in the Seldarine-driven super-ritual. The wording of the paragraph suggests that they didn't. Once more, 3E details that point the finger at Aryvandaar once more. Though, this also hints at the fact that Aryvandaar didn't have a large number of High Magi, too, if you are using it to suggest that the same information implies that there weren't a number of Priests of the Seldarine among the Sun Elves of Aryvandaar. And since it says all of the remaining Elven kingdoms, this means that all elves - Sun, Moon, and Wood/Wild - were equally responsible for the fate of the Drow, which many think to be unjust as is. Yet, only the Vyshaan were executed, and only the Sun Elves are primarily blamed for this. This was primarily the way it was in 2E, though, as well. Ultimately, I think this just goes to show you the degree of free will the elves enjoyed. Wendonai or not, the Ilythiiri, much like the Vyshaanti, had long ago abandoned the ways of the Seldarine. The Ilythiiri didn't yet worship Lolth, but that didn't mean that they were either freedom-loving, good, or in any way in the graces of the Seldarine. They were named drow prior to Wendonai's arrival after all. We have two pieces of conflicting evidence regarding this, though, from 2E at least. In Cormanthyr, it states that the primary deity of the Dark Elves was Corellon prior to the Crown Wars. Evermeet, written a year later and technically thus superceding Cormyr, implies that Ilythiir at least worshipped Ghaunadaur for a goodly amount of time before Aryvandaar even rose. Now, in 3E they specifically retconned it such that the Dark Elves didn't fall to the worship of any evil deities until well after the First Crown War. Another strike to make the Sun Elves seem more at fault than they were at 2E, and making it seem like the Dark Elves weren't nearly so dark-hearted until that time, whereas in 2E they had long since been evil (as Evermeet was considered the most recent canon source of lore for 2E for this). People exagerrate, read too much into things, or don't read things in proper context. The same people also place undue emphasis on CG drow Rangers with two scimitars and Eilistraeen priestesses. I enjoy both, but I don't let them color the obvious nature of the majority of the drow. Similarly, I don't let the occasional baddie sun elf distract me from the fact that his subrace is listed as being predominately CG. This makes a lot of sense - except for the fact that it's only gotten worse with 3E. The above changes to Elven history make it seem like WotC is trying to villify the Sun Elves while at the same time somewhat redeeming the Dark Elves/Drow. And, suffice it to say, I do not agree with the alterations of lore (and the responses evoked to the lore) simply to keep up with the mindset of the modern consumer public. Uhm, in your previous post, you answered both those questions: 1) Free will. 2) The average Vyshaanti, though maybe evil, did not stoop to the level of the Ilythiiri. As far as my campaign is concerned, I simply had most of them banished because I liked the idea of the sun elves being this small community of repentant champions trying to atone for their ancestors' secret, tragic past. Like I pointed out before, the above points just don't seem to hold as much water with the lore that 3E has changed from 2E, making it seem like the Dark Elves hadn't been as guilty as they were in 2E, and making the Sun Elves more guilty. Not only that, but it reduced two entire subraces (or the dominant kingdoms of the subraces) the pawns of two planars. While they were powerful planars, and I love anything planar-related, I think it is rather demeaning, and takes the focus off of the fact that the Crown Wars and the Dark Descent was supposed to be an analogy between the war of Lolth & Co. vs. the Seldarine and her subsequent banishment. Also, I approve of your world's Sun Elves, merely because it's personal flavor, and you have a good handle on the ability of critical analysis. :) I do find it interesting, though, that you bemoan the "evil" label sun elves so often get saddled with with one breath, but have no problem dismissing a plausible explanation for their ancestors' fall with the other. I'm sorry - to what specifically are you referring? I, personally, had everything worked out in regards to the Crown Wars, the actions of the deities involved and the subraces and kingdoms involved, in a way that I felt at the time was quite plausible and thematic, using 2E lore. It just so happened that it matched up with Elaine's own ideas (which I found out after I came to the same conclusions myself). It's with the introduction of 3E lore that I find things to be sticky. Basically: - If the Vyshaan truly had been as evil (needlessly provoking Ilythiir into a war in which they slaughtered them, BEFORE they started to worship evil deities), then their entire kingdom wouldn't have backed them, and at the end, they would have been banished instead of executed. - With the introduction of such powerful planar deities manipulating unwitting Elves, I do not feel that Corellon would have felt okay to stand by and do nothing. Such as the analogy I made earlier - it's okay for your family to fight. It's bad when someone from the outside tries to come into your house and fight your family. - The Dark Disaster now being specifically known to have been the results of Aryvandaar's High Magi. Another way of villifying the Vyshaan moreso than they were in 2E. All of these little details make the end results of the Crown Wars (the banishing of ALL Dark Elves by Corellon's allowance, if not decree, and the execution of only the Vyshaan, rather than their banishment or the punishment of all of Aryvandaar) less believable. With 2E's facts, the end results seemed more believable. I should have been clearer here. I didn't mean to imply outright death. More of a demonstration on what might happen should Lolth not leave well enough alone. In 2E, the Ilythiiri were open territory. They worshipped Ghaunadaur before they worshipped Lolth, as of Evermeet (which overwrote Cormanthyr saying that they worshipped Corellon, the former of which actually makes more sense in the long-run). The Elves already on Faerun before the survivors of Faerie came over did not worship the Seldarine. Evermeet implies, thus, that the Dark Elves of Ilythiir didn't worship the Seldarine at all, and thus weren't directly under Corellon's care. So he had no reason to smack Lolth down for encroaching on his territory, since it was technically Ghaunadaur's. Again, I don't see how the new information conflicts with the 2E material. The old stuff was purposely vague so as to reflect the sort of knowledge elf PCs might come across. The new stuff is only unnecessary if you don't want to know how things came to be. It isn't so much a confliction, as much as an explanation that makes the final results and sentiments less plausible then they were under 2E. Basically, the events of the Crown Wars could have been sketched out in two different ways: to make the Vyshaan/Sun Elves seem slightly more at fault, or make the Dark Elves/Ilythiir slightly more at fault. WotC took the first route, which really doesn't endear me to them much, considering how many poorly-read, Drow-loving posters are practically drooling over it. And screaming at Corellon for being even more of a tyrant than they were in 2E. With all of the 3E material presented, even I'm starting to doubt if the results of the Crown War were properly carried out historically! And I am an unadulterated Sun Elf fanboy. ;)
ElGrecoETAC 07-25-05, 09:15 AM	Once more, this is evidence new from 3E that was not the same in 2E. Originally, there was no specific time in which the assassination of wizards came about from Aryvandaar, and it was done by the Vyshaan's own power. From Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves, pg. 22 The Fifth Crown War began quietly but recklessly. In desperation, the mad elfking Giilvas Vyshaan attempted to slay all the wizards and High Mages who stood against him, counting on the support of his High Mage sons and brothers to protect the clan. Both Cormanthyr and LEoF state the same time period and virtually the same text--no contradiction in LEoF. And in 2E, it still wasn't certain who exactly caused the Dark Disaster. This is more evidence that really does lead in a completely opposite direction from the way information was laid out in 2E. So that's one strike in making the Sun Elves seem more evil in 3E than they were in 2E. From Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves, pg. 22 Some speak of High Mage sympathizers within Miyeritar harnessing forbidden, blasphemous magics against their elves, a taboo never before broken by elves, no matter how mad. Others point to the gold High Mages of Aryvandaar, their political and familial connections with the now-recognizably power-mad Vyshaantar clan, and their greater number and greater powers. So we know that the Aryvandaar High Magi were definitely alive, well, and enjoying (if not in) power during the 3rd Crown War--no contradiction in LEoF. Once more, 3E details that point the finger at Aryvandaar once more. Though, this also hints at the fact that Aryvandaar didn't have a large number of High Magi, ... I think the above two references sufficiently prove that the Vyshaanti enjoyed High Magi with both greater power and numbers than those of their enemies. Furthermore, you forget that Cormanthyr writes history as modern elves think they know it, not as it actually happened. Modern elves don't know who caused the Dark Disaster, and C:EoE only shows what they believe. Once more... no contradiction in LEoF. We have two pieces of conflicting evidence regarding this, though, from 2E at least. In Cormanthyr, it states that the primary deity of the Dark Elves was Corellon prior to the Crown Wars. Evermeet, written a year later and technically thus superceding Cormyr, implies that Ilythiir at least worshipped Ghaunadaur for a goodly amount of time before Aryvandaar even rose. From LEoF, pg. 51: -18,000 Some Ilythiiri houses discover Ghaunadaur and begin venerating him in secret. In the centuries that follow ... turn to other dark deities, such as Lolth. From LEoF, pg. 52: -11,500 ...The church of Lolth rises to prominence. From C:EoE, pg. 11: Dark Elves*: All; Lolth (after -12,000 DR) Corellon Larethian; Erevan Ilesere; Lolth (after -12,000 DR) * These are dark elves from before the Crown Wars; once the Crown Wars begin, the dark elves degenerate swiftly and solely into the worship of Lolth and other dark powers such as Vhaerun and Ghaunadar. If there is a contradiction, it arises, as you say, in 2E material. LEoF supports the idea that worship of dark deities could be found within certain clans, but didn't come into the forefront of society until the wars had been underway. The timelines they present are entirely consistent with 2E material. No contradiction here. Now, in 3E they specifically retconned it such that the Dark Elves didn't fall to the worship of any evil deities until well after the First Crown War. Another strike to make the Sun Elves seem more at fault than they were at 2E, and making it seem like the Dark Elves weren't nearly so dark-hearted until that time, whereas in 2E they had long since been evil (as Evermeet was considered the most recent canon source of lore for 2E for this). See above reference. There was no retcon. This has always been part of the official timeline. Ilythiiri corruption to over-the-top monstrous evil by dark powers comes only after the Crown Wars begin. This makes a lot of sense - except for the fact that it's only gotten worse with 3E. The above changes to Elven history make it seem like WotC is trying to villify the Sun Elves while at the same time somewhat redeeming the Dark Elves/Drow. And yet I have trouble seeing how it got worse. It seems that, if anything, they are simply holding the course and following established canon. And, suffice it to say, I do not agree with the alterations of lore (and the responses evoked to the lore) simply to keep up with the mindset of the modern consumer public. What alterations? Like I pointed out before, the above points just don't seem to hold as much water with the lore that 3E has changed from 2E, making it seem like the Dark Elves hadn't been as guilty as they were in 2E, and making the Sun Elves more guilty. What changes? Not only that, but it reduced two entire subraces (or the dominant kingdoms of the subraces) the pawns of two planars. While they were powerful planars, and I love anything planar-related, I think it is rather demeaning, and takes the focus off of the fact that the Crown Wars and the Dark Descent was supposed to be an analogy between the war of Lolth & Co. vs. the Seldarine and her subsequent banishment. Fair enough. It's a fair opinion. :) Also, I approve of your world's Sun Elves, merely because it's personal flavor, and you have a good handle on the ability of critical analysis. :) Thanks. :) It's with the introduction of 3E lore that I find things to be sticky. ... I think I have sufficiently addressed Vyshaanti High Magi, the Dark Disaster, the worship of dark deities, etc. Where the banishment of the dark elves/execution of sun elves is concerned, there is, again, no contradiction between 2E and 3E sources. From C:EoF, pg. 23: At the apparent insistence of Corellon Larethian himself during their reveries or rituals, over 100 representatives of each of the surface elven races were magically summoned ... to debate the cause of their divisiveness and strife. This place, established in Corellon's name as a place of decision and judgment, became Elven Court. From LEoF, pg. 56: Almost word for word, nearly the exact same transcript. From C:EoF, pg. 23: After nearly a millennia of debate ... rulers of Aryvandaar and the Vyshaantar Empire, were found to be at the heart of the problem ... They were to be stripped of their rulership ... and their lives were declared forfeit ... From LEoF, pg. 56: ... after nearly a millenium of debate ... judged the sun elf clan of Vyshaan ... to be the root cause of the strife and suffering of the Crown Wars ... they were to be stripped of their rulership ... and their lives would be declared forfeit ... Both sources cite this punishment after the Descent. No change; no contradiction. In 2E, the Ilythiiri were open territory. They worshipped Ghaunadaur before they worshipped Lolth, as of Evermeet (which overwrote Cormanthyr saying that they worshipped Corellon, the former of which actually makes more sense in the long-run). As shown before in this post--no contradiction. ... Evermeet implies, thus, that the Dark Elves of Ilythiir didn't worship the Seldarine at all, and thus weren't directly under Corellon's care. So he had no reason to smack Lolth down for encroaching on his territory, since it was technically Ghaunadaur's. Cormanthyr says differently. It's obvious that the researchers chose to go with a game product rather than a novel for their resource material. I'm sure it's not the only time this happened, and I doubt this only happens with 3E material. Incidentally, Steven Schend, one of the individuals you felt had his finger on the pulse of the Crown Wars, is the author of the material that you say was changed, but that I see was often copied and pasted with minimal grammatical alterations. ;) It isn't so much a confliction, as much as an explanation that makes the final results and sentiments less plausible then they were under 2E. Basically, the events of the Crown Wars could have been sketched out in two different ways: to make the Vyshaan/Sun Elves seem slightly more at fault, or make the Dark Elves/Ilythiir slightly more at fault. WotC took the first route, ... I think I've shown that they did no such thing. At the end of the day, this is my take on the matter. You clearly don't like the idea of Malkizid and Wendonai corrupting the elven nations of Aryvandaar and Ilythiir. Fair enough! You have the right to your opinion. Saying that their introduction is a contradiction of previous works, however, is incorrect. Where elven history is concerned, the facts were never before known due to an intentional penchant for secrecy and misinformation. In this case, absence of evidence cannot imply evidence of absence. Without altering the timeline of the concepts introduced in preceding game products, Rich Baker & Co. filled in the blanks for you. If you don't like the filler, fair enough. Again, however, I think it's fair to say that the filler is consistent with previously established material.
ElGrecoETAC 07-25-05, 09:32 AM	BTW, GothicDan, if it's possible, could you link to Elaine's words on the subject? I tried to find them in her thread at Candlekeep, but gave up after 6-7 pages. :( P.S.: I do think it's a shame you're not checking out the Lost Mythal series. Being a Sun Elf fanboy, and all, I thought you'd like a series where three of the protagonists are: 1) A Sun Elf wizard/high mage in the making. 2) His betrothed, a powerful Sun Elf archer/spellcaster and noble lady of Evermeet. 3) Her father, a leading cleric of Corellon and a powerful Sun Elf noble to boot. All three of them are very nice, very elven, and don't seem to have a single ounce of bigotry in their entire body. :)
GothicDan 07-25-05, 09:37 AM	I'll comment more later - but suffice it to say, Greco, that you pointed out some points in LEoF which have soothed my soul a little bit. :) P.S.: I do think it's a shame you're not checking out the Lost Mythal series. Being a Sun Elf fanboy, and all, I thought you'd like a series where three of the protagonists are: I am a fan of Sun Elves when their culture is treated properly. I am not a fan of the author in question (note that I'm making no judgements on said author's writing style or ability; merely my feelings towards it, in general).
ElGrecoETAC 07-25-05, 10:01 AM	I'll comment more later - but suffice it to say, Greco, that you pointed out some points in LEoF which have soothed my soul a little bit. :) That's what I'm here for. OK, off to work now! ;)
GothicDan 07-25-05, 12:49 PM	In any event, it seems like I should actually pick up LEoF. ;) While I still don't like the whole theory presented, it doesn't seem to villify the Sun Elves as I thought it did, judging from the information that others have posted on this board. I admit my ignorance of the 3E sources in this regard, and I thank you or educating me, Greco! Though, I still don't like the whole Fiends-being-involved thing, just for the principle of the matter. Where the heck do all of those Drow-lovers get the ideas that all Sun Elves are just as evil and rotten, if not moreso, than the Ilythiiri were, then? ;)
Chloramantis 07-25-05, 04:13 PM	Does anyone know Coronal Ynloeth's surname?
ElGrecoETAC 07-25-05, 05:54 PM	Where the heck do all of those Drow-lovers get the ideas that all Sun Elves are just as evil and rotten, if not moreso, than the Ilythiiri were, then? ;) I don't know, and I don't like it. A while back there was a thread where Sun Elf haters cited Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves as proof that the preponderance that the Sun Elves were not, in fact, CG. This was, in fact, a ridiculous assertation, since the majority of listed Elves, Sun Elf or not, in that book failed to adhere to the traditional racial alignment. Where the rest is concerned, I respect your opinion and am not trying to change it by any means, but allow me to state why I like the new historical fluff... :) Ever since reading Cormanthyr, I had been of the opinion that the Aryvandaari elves were behind the Dark Disaster. The alternative theory offered in that text, that Miyeritari traitors had done this of their own volition, always seemed rather unlikely to me. At any rate, I found the idea that the Aryvandaari would do something like this of their own volition so repugnant and out of character for elves that it never sat well with me. It just seemed so far left-field--it didn't make sense. How could the authorities of such a great empire do something so terrible and not be at least confronted with a token outcry for their own subjects? When I read about Malkizid and Wendonai, it all fell into place for me. An imperialist clan already described as haughty, supremacist, and arrogant, and a cabal of power-hungry High Magi who are part of the inner circle of power are well-situated to be corrupted by as powerful a being as Malkizid. The same malevolent and titanic powers that allowed to lay Miyeritar to waste could also allow them to conceal the origin of the Dark Disaster. The manner in which it was delivered gave the Aryvandaar elves plausible room to doubt that their masters had been behind the whole thing. It is a lot more plausible to thus assume that the majority of the Sun Elves were not, in fact, evil or barbaric. Arrogant and haughty? Too willing to embark in war? Sure. But you can definitely see the difference between their society and that of the Ilythiiri. It is specifically shown in LEoF that though the leadership of Aryvandaar fell to evil and corruption, it was the Ilythiiri society in its entirety that succumbed to evil so base and unparalleled that even today's Drow don't look back on them fondly. Thus, the idea that the Sun Elves were worse than the Drow is, in my eyes, kind of ridiculous. On a related note, could Corellon have sensed Malkizid's encroachment on his children? I'm not as familiar with the workings and abilities of the Faerunian deities as I am with the historical background, so I can't answer as accurately. Rules-wise, I'm pretty sure he could have been able to sense an Arch-Fiend in the midst of the biggest Sun Elf Empire. Should he, by game development standards, been able to step in? I guess this is all a matter of opinion. Had he, I would have considered it a perfect example of "Deus ex Machina" writing, and would have bemoaned it as trite. Tragedy and drama would be a lot less possible if the gods were able to act as we wish they could. It's one of the reasons why the Olympian Pantheon is seen as so human and so flawed in the ancient Greek works, IMHO. Anyways, that's my $2.00... It was too much to be $.02. ;)
GothicDan 07-25-05, 07:04 PM	I don't know, and I don't like it. A while back there was a thread where Sun Elf haters cited Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves as proof that the preponderance that the Sun Elves were not, in fact, CG. This was, in fact, a ridiculous assertation, since the majority of listed Elves, Sun Elf or not, in that book failed to adhere to the traditional racial alignment. I have always personally felt that the Sun Elves tended more towards Law over Chaos than the rest of the Tel'Quessir, and in this case, Cormanthyr's stats do seem to back such an opinion up (given the fact that both Eltargrim and the Srinshee were lawful, at the very least). However, by that same token, there were still few evil Sun Elves in Cormanthyr, and there were evil Moon Elves, as well. So, fooey on those people! Ever since reading Cormanthyr, I had been of the opinion that the Aryvandaari elves were behind the Dark Disaster. The alternative theory offered in that text, that Miyeritari traitors had done this of their own volition, always seemed rather unlikely to me. At any rate, I found the idea that the Aryvandaari would do something like this of their own volition so repugnant and out of character for elves that it never sat well with me. It just seemed so far left-field--it didn't make sense. How could the authorities of such a great empire do something so terrible and not be at least confronted with a token outcry for their own subjects? See, the fact that Cormanthyr specifically left open the powers behind the Dark Disaster, while giving two possibilities, always made me think of other possibilities. I think in threes; I guess it's the Planescape in me! :) I always thought that it was the work of Lolth or Ghaunadaur, to coerce the Dark Elves of Ilythiir into acting against Aryvandaar. When I read about Malkizid and Wendonai, it all fell into place for me. An imperialist clan already described as haughty, supremacist, and arrogant, and a cabal of power-hungry High Magi who are part of the inner circle of power are well-situated to be corrupted by as powerful a being as Malkizid. The same malevolent and titanic powers that allowed to lay Miyeritar to waste could also allow them to conceal the origin of the Dark Disaster. The manner in which it was delivered gave the Aryvandaar elves plausible room to doubt that their masters had been behind the whole thing. It is a lot more plausible to thus assume that the majority of the Sun Elves were not, in fact, evil or barbaric. Arrogant and haughty? Too willing to embark in war? Sure. But you can definitely see the difference between their society and that of the Ilythiiri. It is specifically shown in LEoF that though the leadership of Aryvandaar fell to evil and corruption, it was the Ilythiiri society in its entirety that succumbed to evil so base and unparalleled that even today's Drow don't look back on them fondly. Thus, the idea that the Sun Elves were worse than the Drow is, in my eyes, kind of ridiculous. I pretty much agree with all of this. The only difference is that this is exactly the thought patterns I had on the subject based solely from 2E lore, without the presence of Malkizid. :) On a related note, could Corellon have sensed Malkizid's encroachment on his children? I'm not as familiar with the workings and abilities of the Faerunian deities as I am with the historical background, so I can't answer as accurately. Rules-wise, I'm pretty sure he could have been able to sense an Arch-Fiend in the midst of the biggest Sun Elf Empire. Should he, by game development standards, been able to step in? I guess this is all a matter of opinion. Had he, I would have considered it a perfect example of "Deus ex Machina" writing, and would have bemoaned it as trite. Tragedy and drama would be a lot less possible if the gods were able to act as we wish they could. It's one of the reasons why the Olympian Pantheon is seen as so human and so flawed in the ancient Greek works, IMHO. But also remember that it's the Olympians that modern society perhaps loves the most, of all pagan cultures, and remembers the most. Deus ex machina it might be, but remember that deus ex machina isn't always a bad thing, if you're trying to suspend reality specifically, and if it reinforces the bond of a specific God (Corellon) to his people (the Tel'Quessir). Anyways, that's my $2.00... It was too much to be $.02. I'll take the expensive reply over the cheap one any day. ;)
ElGrecoETAC 07-25-05, 07:13 PM	But also remember that it's the Olympians that modern society perhaps loves the most, of all pagan cultures, and remembers the most. Deus ex machina it might be, but remember that deus ex machina isn't always a bad thing, if you're trying to suspend reality specifically, and if it reinforces the bond of a specific God (Corellon) to his people (the Tel'Quessir). I may not have been clear on this one. By my statements I meant to show how incredible powerful beings (the Olympians) often did not in the ways that made most sense in the Greek legends--for a variety of reasons. I will agree that there was a major hole left in LEoF: the motivations and knowledge behind Corellon's action or lack of action. I'll take the expensive reply over the cheap one any day. ;) Thanks, man. It's been a pleasure discussing this subject with you. :)
GothicDan 07-26-05, 01:57 PM	I may not have been clear on this one. By my statements I meant to show how incredible powerful beings (the Olympians) often did not in the ways that made most sense in the Greek legends--for a variety of reasons. I will agree that there was a major hole left in LEoF: the motivations and knowledge behind Corellon's action or lack of action. Exactly. This is my primary problem with the LEoF history, moreso than the above 'contributing factors.' I could believe it when it was just the Elves fighting amongst themselves. But when practically Arch-Fiends are in on it...? Not so believable. Thanks, man. It's been a pleasure discussing this subject with you. I feel the same. :)