Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Darrian 07-17-05, 04:13 PM	Ok, this is obviously hypothetical, so... Could the Army of Darkness that destroyed Myth Drannor in the Weeping War do the same thing to Waterdeep today. If the Army was led by the same trio and had roughly the same composition. How would they fare, and why? Is Waterdeep of today greater than Myth Drannor of old? Would gods interfere? If so, why did they not then? Would other nations get involved? Just a hypothetical. Thank you for your thoughts, Darrian
Kuje31 07-17-05, 04:17 PM	Ok, this is obviously hypothetical, so... Could the Army of Darkness that destroyed Myth Drannor in the Weeping War do the same thing to Waterdeep today. If the Army was led by the same trio and had roughly the same composition. How would they fare, and why? Is Waterdeep of today greater than Myth Drannor of old? Would gods interfere? If so, why did they not then? Would other nations get involved? Just a hypothetical. Thank you for your thoughts, Darrian If they could take Myth Drannor, then I feel they could take Waterdeep. Gods would stay out of it. There's tons of nations and cities that have fallen through the ages. The allies of Waterdeep and thier enemies would be involved, aye.
Kessalin Talira 07-17-05, 04:31 PM	I throw my vote in for the Army of Darkness, as well. At the beginning of the Weeping War, it numbered roughly 250,000 troops... 2.5 times the population of Waterdeep, and fully half of its population during the peak trading season. Without a Mythal to protect Waterdeep and keep out many of the races making up the army, the Army could directly attack the city much sooner than it could Myth Drannor. I think a "greater" designation is pretty subjective. I personally think that Myth Drannor is the greater of the two cities, from a magical perspective, as well as general "coolness" factor. Other people may think differently. I also think the gods would stay out of it, though not as completely as they did with Myth Drannor... Myth Drannor was far from being the cultural center it was at its height by the time the Army attacked. The Silver Marches would certainly play a part... if Waterdeep falls, they're most likely next. I think it would be the same for cities of the Western Heartlands... Baldur's Gate and the like. If by "roughly the same composition" you include armaments, then I hope Waterdeep finds out about the Gatekeeper's Crystal in time. If Myth Drannor hadn't, the war would have been over in months instead of years.
Darrian 07-17-05, 04:36 PM	But doesn't Waterdeep have something mythal-like? (maybe mythal-light?) I know they have some crazy epic spell that stops dragons from flying over it, except for song dragons. Darrian (BTW, I agree, Myth Drannor was way cooler)
Zevox 07-17-05, 05:36 PM	Hm... I'm not so sure. Waterdeep has many allies to call upon, and many trading partners that wouldn't want them falling. Plus they have two resident Chosen of Mystra, something Myth Drannor lacked (at the time even Elminster couldn't have helped them, having been locked in stasis in an ancient tomb), which provide a direct line to the other 7 generally-known ones. Between them, they could likely deal with the three Yugoloth leaders, which could have a significant effect on the army if they couldn't porduce another leader that all were willing to follow. Plus theres Skullport to consider - while the vast majority of thier citizens won't care a lick if Waterdeep falls, some of them (ones that moved there from Waterdeep for one reason or another perhaps, plus the Eilistraeeans who follow Quile) may be willing to come to the aid of the City of Splendors. Then again, the points that they lack a Mythal or much of Myth Drannor's magical defenses is an excellent point to consider - its distinctly possible that the Army of Darkness would overwhelm the city before any allies could be raised. Zevox
Kuje31 07-17-05, 06:03 PM	Hm... I'm not so sure. Waterdeep has many allies to call upon, and many trading partners that wouldn't want them falling. Plus they have two resident Chosen of Mystra, something Myth Drannor lacked (at the time even Elminster couldn't have helped them, having been locked in stasis in an ancient tomb), which provide a direct line to the other 7 generally-known ones. Between them, they could likely deal with the three Yugoloth leaders, which could have a significant effect on the army if they couldn't porduce another leader that all were willing to follow. Plus theres Skullport to consider - while the vast majority of thier citizens won't care a lick if Waterdeep falls, some of them (ones that moved there from Waterdeep for one reason or another perhaps, plus the Eilistraeeans who follow Quile) may be willing to come to the aid of the City of Splendors. Then again, the points that they lack a Mythal or much of Myth Drannor's magical defenses is an excellent point to consider - its distinctly possible that the Army of Darkness would overwhelm the city before any allies could be raised. Zevox Myth Drannor had 2 Chosen. Khelben and Symruster. And Waterdeep is missing the Mythal. Now true there is Undermountain and Halaster to deal with since he might come to the defense of Waterdeep....
Darrian 07-17-05, 07:35 PM	This is a tough call, isn't it? Darrian
Zevox 07-17-05, 07:40 PM	Myth Drannor had 2 Chosen. Khelben and Symruster. And Waterdeep is missing the Mythal. Now true there is Undermountain and Halaster to deal with since he might come to the defense of Waterdeep.... :doh: I forgot about Symruster. Although I had no idea that Khelben was a resident of Myth Drannor before its fall (how old would he have been at the time? I can't imagine that he was a quite so powerful a wizard by that point.). Still, the two Waterdhavian Chosen could call in the other Chosen (El and Laeral's 6 sisters), putting Waterdeep at a likely 9 Chosen worth of defenders (unless Mystra had some of them out planewalking or something on one of her errands). I hadn't even thought about Halaster though. He could very well end up coming forth to help defend the city, especially now that his insanity is gone. Whether he and the Chosen could make up for the lack of a Mythal (at least well enough to hold the army from breaching the city long enough for allies out of the Silver Marches, Cormyr, Baldur's Gate, Sembia, or wherever else to arrive) is entirely open to debate, though... Zevox
Kuje31 07-17-05, 07:55 PM	:doh: I forgot about Symruster. Although I had no idea that Khelben was a resident of Myth Drannor before its fall (how old would he have been at the time? I can't imagine that he was a quite so powerful a wizard by that point.). Still, the two Waterdhavian Chosen could call in the other Chosen (El and Laeral's 6 sisters), putting Waterdeep at a likely 9 Chosen worth of defenders (unless Mystra had some of them out planewalking or something on one of her errands). I hadn't even thought about Halaster though. He could very well end up coming forth to help defend the city, especially now that his insanity is gone. Whether he and the Chosen could make up for the lack of a Mythal (at least well enough to hold the army from breaching the city long enough for allies out of the Silver Marches, Cormyr, Baldur's Gate, Sembia, or wherever else to arrive) is entirely open to debate, though... Zevox Khelben was born in Myth Drannor. :) And he was strong enough to help during the battles. He was born in 414, so Khelben would have been over 200, at least, by the time Myth Drannor fell. Hells even Elminster was around for some of the battles. So really there was 3 Chosen there and depending on when the Srinshee was made one, there might have been 4.
Tebryn14 07-17-05, 08:55 PM	Khelben was born in Myth Drannor. :) And he was strong enough to help during the battles. He was born in 414, so Khelben would have been over 200, at least, by the time Myth Drannor fell. Hells even Elminster was around for some of the battles. So really there was 3 Chosen there and depending on when the Srinshee was made one, there might have been 4. I was definently under the impression that the Shrinshee had vanished by that point, but I could be wrong. I think that Waterdeep is probably a great enough prize that most if not all of the Chosen (at least the ones that Mystra would want to), as well as several neigboring nations, would come its defense. Whether that could make up for the Mythal... At any rate, don't you doubt that the Army of Darkness would certainly recruit other cities that aren't sympathetic to Waterdeep's cause, Luskan perhaps, to aid them. Maybe some other famous heroes would make a stint too. Who knows?
Kuje31 07-17-05, 09:02 PM	I was definently under the impression that the Shrinshee had vanished by that point, but I could be wrong. I think that Waterdeep is probably a great enough prize that most if not all of the Chosen (at least the ones that Mystra would want to), as well as several neigboring nations, would come its defense. Whether that could make up for the Mythal... At any rate, don't you doubt that the Army of Darkness would certainly recruit other cities that aren't sympathetic to Waterdeep's cause, Luskan perhaps, to aid them. Maybe some other famous heroes would make a stint too. Who knows? You're right, she did but that doesn't mean she didn't keep watch on the city. :)
Tebryn14 07-17-05, 09:13 PM	You're right, she did but that doesn't mean she didn't keep watch on the city. :) Well, that was helpful *sarcasm*. "I'm the most powerful High Mage alive on Toril, and I'm gonna keep my stony, non-Chosen-esqu silence while my civilization gets wiped away by fiends". Silly Chosen ;).
Kuje31 07-17-05, 09:31 PM	Well, that was helpful *sarcasm*. "I'm the most powerful High Mage alive on Toril, and I'm gonna keep my stony, non-Chosen-esqu silence while my civilization gets wiped away by fiends". Silly Chosen ;). Exactly. Go Srinshee! : :P
Zevox 07-17-05, 09:38 PM	Khelben was born in Myth Drannor. :) And he was strong enough to help during the battles. He was born in 414, so Khelben would have been over 200, at least, by the time Myth Drannor fell. Ah. Thanks for that info Kuje, most informative :) . Hells even Elminster was around for some of the battles. That one, on the other hand, I have a bit of trouble swallowing. According to the novel The Temptation of Elminster, El was locked in stasis in a netherese tomb from approximately the year 659 DR until early Mirtul 759 DR (its specifically said that he recalled exploring the tomb "a century ago" when he learns what year it is upon his release). Looking at the timeline in the FRCS, the war that destroyed Myth Drannor began in 711 DR and ended in 714 DR - meaning El should have been imprisoned at the time. How could he be present for any of the battles, if this is so? Zevox
Kuje31 07-17-05, 09:52 PM	Ah. Thanks for that info Kuje, most informative :) . That one, on the other hand, I have a bit of trouble swallowing. According to the novel The Temptation of Elminster, El was locked in stasis in a netherese tomb from approximately the year 659 DR until early Mirtul 759 DR (its specifically said that he recalled exploring the tomb "a century ago" when he learns what year it is upon his release). Looking at the timeline in the FRCS, the war that destroyed Myth Drannor began in 711 DR and ended in 714 DR - meaning El should have been imprisoned at the time. How could he be present for any of the battles, if this is so? Zevox Then we have a error because Elminster was as the refounding of the Harpers in 720 at the Dancing Place. Elminster was also at the battle of the Silversgate in 712, with Khelben, Symruster, and Josidiah. However, Elminster's memories are not up to par since he is over 1000!
Myssa Rei 07-17-05, 10:16 PM	... Also, I do recall reading somewhere that while Elminster *thought* he had spent a century in stasis, he really didn't. (checks Fall of Myth Drannor again) Ah, there you go. The Battle of the 3 Chosen, where Khelben almost died and Elminster is lost to the planes after helping destroy the gate that connected Silverymoon and Myth Drannor from the inside (!!).
Kuje31 07-17-05, 10:19 PM	... Also, I do recall reading somewhere that while Elminster *thought* he had spent a century in stasis, he really didn't. (checks Fall of Myth Drannor again) Ah, there you go. The Battle of the 3 Chosen, where Khelben almost died and Elminster is lost to the planes after helping destroy the gate that connected Silverymoon and Myth Drannor from the inside (!!). That's the one I mentioned above. :) :P
the.real.elwood 07-18-05, 12:23 AM	Everyone is discounting that a good portion of the fall of Myth Drannor wasn't just because of the Army of Darkness. Myth Drannor had been in decline for awhile, and the racism and infighting between the elves and other races (and eventually between different subraces of elves) were a major part of the problem. Assuming that Waterdeep doesn't have the same kind of deep-set problems that would cause a long-lasting decay like what happened in Myth Drannor, I would safely bet on Waterdeep being able to repel the Army of Darkness.
Darrian 07-18-05, 12:56 AM	Good point elwood. I have not really considered it. However, after reading the new sourcebook on Waterdeep, their army is so damn small. I can't help but believe that the Myth Drannor army was many times larger and better trained. BTW, I still don't know if The Army of Darkness could take Waterdeep. I am working on this hypothetical because an attack like this may happen in my campaign. Thanks again, Darrian
Tyrant of the Moonsea 07-18-05, 01:13 AM	If I remember correctly, the three yugoloths were killed in Myth Drannor. You can find info on their death in the Fall of Myth Drannor book. Am I wrong?
The Simbul 07-18-05, 01:16 AM	If I could actually locate a physical copy of City of Splendors in a physically existing store made of brick and mortar and with real people working inside (as opposed to enduring the shipping times and incompetence of certain online vendors), then I might be able to more accurately adjudicate Waterdeep's defenses. Khelben was instrumental in raising the Mythal of Myth Glaurach, Alustriel was instrumental in raising the Wards of Silverymoon, Elminster was intrumental in raising the Mythal of Myth Drannor, the Simbul is one of the few Epic Faerunian spellcasters whose 3.0 epic stat block actually includes the Epic Spellcasting feat, and several of the above Chosen were instrumental in rejuvenating the Mythal of Evereska using the Silver Fire. Combine that experience with the fact that as Mystra's Chosen they have an unequaled understanding of magic and spells, and I imagine if the fate of Waterdeep rested on whether or not the city had a Mythal, then I am sure something could be done to rectify that situation. In addition, IIRC Waterdeep is founded on the ruins of a Elven Mythal city, Undermountain qualifies as a Wizardly Mythal according to MoF, and at least as far as 2E sources are concerned Blackstaff tower has one of the largest collections of artifacts in the region. That aside, a army of 250,000 infernal creatures isnt going to spontaneously assemble and annihilate a city without divine omens and divinations foretelling the impedning disaster in time for the forces of good to act to interdict it.
Darrian 07-18-05, 01:24 AM	Yes and no. The 3 yugoloths lords did die in "The Fall of Myth Drannor" although it is never stated how Almpiter died. He killed Fflar, but it is unclear if Fflar killed him. While it is impossible to resurrect/raise dead a yugoloth lord, you CAN use wish on them. I imagine though it would be best done on their homeplane. I figure that it would take a being as powerful as their master Malkizid to bring them back and get them to return to Faerun. I have the way and the means to bring about another Army of Darkness, now I just need a motive for it to happen in my campaign. Darrian (Plotting)
GothicDan 07-18-05, 09:35 AM	I am going to say that Waterdeep would fall. While the Simbul brings up some very good points, many of them could have been applied to the case of Myth Drannor as well (such as ill omens and the like), and the fact that they didn't means that you couldn't give such possibilities credit in the Army of Darkness vs. Waterdeep thing, either. And the Chosen of Mystra's knowledge and mastery of magic, while formiddable, was probably not as great as the combined might of dozens of Epic High Mages (or just Epic Wizards) who were in Myth Drannor, as far as I'm concerned, not to mention several dragons and an entire host of fey and sylvan creatures, as well as a glut of clerical might as well.
Brom Greenstar 07-18-05, 12:55 PM	I think that someone better read than me should compare the hard facts: Government, Army, mundane defenses (walls and such) Wards and other magical defenses, mages and spellcasters, clerics, allies... Personally I'd bet my cents on Waterdeep because of the harbor.
GothicDan 07-18-05, 01:03 PM	The harbor really wouldn't mean that much to an Army that didn't use any actual naval troops, and thousands of fiends who could teleport without error.. er.. greater teleport.. at will. And also, we would have to compare the two under 2E rules, since that's the ruleset under which Myth Drannor fell. If we wanted to use 3E rules, we'd have to re-examine the entire battle of Myth Drannor under 3E rules as well.
Demetrios 07-18-05, 01:21 PM	I think that someone better read than me should compare the hard facts: Government, Army, mundane defenses (walls and such) Wards and other magical defenses, mages and spellcasters, clerics, allies... Personally I'd bet my cents on Waterdeep because of the harbor. Physically, Waterdeep is in a much better position - its walls are taller than Myth Drannor's and it sits upon a highly defensible plateau with cliffs below the walls. Its harbor will alow for the importation of food, supplies, and troops - presumably the infernal creatures won't have a navy for blockade purposes (they could summon a few water-type lower planar creatures, but I doubt they could mount a full blockade). The flaw in both of these, of course, would be flying and teleporting fiends. Flying fiends can be countered with flying troops, of course, but teleporting would be much harder to stop without serious magic. Although, as others have pointed out, given ample warning, no doubt Khelben and the other Chosen would somehow ramp up the city's magical defenses in order to counter this flaw...
Grishnor 07-18-05, 01:36 PM	My votes for Waterdeep. I dont think the Army of Darkness could take the city. Mainly because of big H. He would be furious that his home of 1,000+ yrs is being threatened. He would release all his greatest creations, monsters, apprentices and they would appear and start squashing minions. No one threatens big H, the mans 4-5 thousand years old and quite possible holds vast amounts of unknown and incredibly ancient Imaskari Magic.
Darrian 07-18-05, 01:50 PM	Physical location. I am not at all convinced that Waterdeep is in a much better position. Myth Drannor was surrounded by a REALLY big forest, last I heard, elves are very crafty in the woods. I will give you the walls though, Waterdeep does have 2 sets of massive walls. Ordinarily, the harbor would be a HUGE advantage in a siege, but Myth Drannor had many portals that allowed for free flow of supplies and reinforcements. The more I explore this comparison, the more complicted it gets. Darrian (Looking for a motive)
GothicDan 07-18-05, 02:43 PM	All of those of you talking about Halaster and the Chosen, and the physical defenses of Waterdeep - have you taken a good look through Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves? The magical protections that they had more than made up for a harbor and a high wall. Even in normal D&D campaign, high walls mean almost nothing when magic is involved, let alone when fiends are involved. One of the Dragon issues dealing with Abyssal fortresses has some information about fortifying against fiends - it's nigh impossible. And for those of you who keep bringing up Halaster, Elminster, etc., as has already been pointed out, Myth Drannor had anywhere between 2-4 Chosen defending it, and almost every noble house had a House Wizard of at least 18th level. That means, on a safe estimate, at least a dozen EPIC level wizards. And the Army of Darkness still defeated it. Waterdeep would be gone. I'm not saying it would be an easy fight, but it would be ruined.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-18-05, 08:19 PM	Assuming the same Army of Darkness with its trio of Nycaloth leaders... Army of Darkness, by a slim margin. I'd put money on the 'loths attempting to strike some form of deal with Halaster in order for the Mad Mage to remain neutral during the seige of the city. I could also see the 'loths purchasing the services of as many resident Waterdeep mercenary groups in the months leading up to the attack, not to have them be traitors, but to send them out of the city on fools errands just to weaken the pool of possible defenders. Too many variables though, and it depends on how much access to the resources of Gehenna and the Waste that the 'loths have (I'll assume they have none since they're working for a fallen Solar rather than a proper unique Yugoloth within the 'loth heirarchy).
MT-296 "Dagger" 07-18-05, 08:25 PM	Unless Im mistaken. A major fiend army would attract the attention of at least the Guardianals if not the other Celestials. and being what they are wouldn't they come to the defense of Waterdeep?
Preternatural 07-18-05, 08:31 PM	Unless Im mistaken. A major fiend army would attract the attention of at least the Guardianals if not the other Celestials. and being what they are wouldn't they come to the defense of Waterdeep? The Celestials didn't do much when Myth Drannor bit the dust. Neither did they when Narfell was rampaging around with their bonded demon armies. Or a number of other times I bet.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-18-05, 08:57 PM	Unless Im mistaken. A major fiend army would attract the attention of at least the Guardianals if not the other Celestials. and being what they are wouldn't they come to the defense of Waterdeep? Yes it might, but when they razed Myth Drannor, it was controlled by the trio of fiends, but the mass of the army was made up of controlled, cowed, and manipulated evil humanoids. The Trio Nefarious were manipulators, and so by limiting the total amount of fiendish involvement to a topheavy approach, there's no risk of gaining the attention and involvement of any of the celestials races. At least lower risk of such at least. One would think that the Rilmani at the very least might intervene to prevent fiendish tampering with the natural state of affairs on a given world, though to be honest they might have helped the fiends if they felt that Myth Drannor itself was causing the influence of good to rise too high.
WraithCaller 07-18-05, 09:33 PM	Obviously the Army of Darkness, though Waterdeep wouldn't go easily... Lets look at them both, roughly: Waterdeep: It has a good defense positon, but against an army of fiends, it probably wouldn't be worth much. Khelben and Laeral would probably be the city's greatest assets, being able to call upon the other Chosen for help. Elminster, Alustriel, the Simbul, Storm... Even just those four would be a heavy weight on the scales. I also have a feeling that somehow, someway, a metallic dragon or two could be called on as a favor to help defend the city. And let's not forget Waterdeep's connections! Waterdeep could, if sufficiently threatened and forewarned, probably summon the entire northern armies of Faerun! Baldur's Gate, Silverymoon, and Neverwinter... I belive they and more comprise the handy, little Lord's Alliance? And there's always a chance that wildcard Halaster might rush to Waterdeep's aid, along with his still-living apprentices, and his good friend, Manshoon #2. HOWEVER!!! Waterdeep would be in deep-er water than it- er... Anyway, It might have more trouble than it would reckon. Army of Darkness: Aside from the vast army of fiends, led by three powerful Yugoloths, who are in turn led secretly by a fallen solar, deposed archduke of the nine hells, and now a yugoloth lord, there are many more things to consider... Luskan of course, being one. If Neverwinter, its hated enemy (though Luskan effectively hates everyone) was weakened in an attempt to destroy Waterdeep, than that would leave Luskan able to assault the jewel of the north with little resistance. Of course, Luskan wouldn't be the only 'city' probably joining the Army of Darkness. Skullport, the ever wretched hive of scum and villiany, would, if not convinced outright to join the AoD, certainly not help Waterdeep. Taking into account the depraved, vile population, its doubtful that Skullport would sit idle while Waterdeep, so busy defending itself, would be essentially a sitting duck to those below. And that brings me to my final city, which many have forgotten. Ch'chitl. A city ruled by Illithiliches lying right under the city of splendors, and you think they wouldn't take advantage of the fiendish army distracting their mammilian enemies? Even less likely than Skullport to directly align themselves with the AoD, Ch'chitl wouldn't sit idle. With all the confusion above, who would notice a few people mysteriously vanish away to become slaves or meals?. And as a last reminder, you never know what that wildcard Halaster might do. He might aid the AoD in return for some hard-to-come-by magical lore or artifact that Malkizid wouldn't mind parting with. Ever assisted by his dear apprentices and his cohort Manshoon #2, Halaster could be an ally of the AoD by simply not leaving his underground lair, either bribed by the fiends or simply confident in his wards and traps. There you have it. Waterdeep would fall, but not without a hell of a fight. On a side note, how did Halaster loose his insanity and why?
Darrian 07-18-05, 11:09 PM	Wow Wraithcaller, very well written. I definitely learned a few things from your post. Where would I find info on Ch'chitl? This possible campaign of mine is definitely getting more complicated. Darrian
Brom Greenstar 07-19-05, 07:48 AM	Shar was involved but he ain't crazy anymore by Mystra's doing Anyway I think it all depends on the ledearship of the AoD. IMC I have an AoD inspired by Shar, sponsored by Malar and lead by a demon, a vampire, an alhoon and a orc priest. They have destroyed Nesme, but in turn managed to anger the uthgardt barbarians, so adding to the defenders. In all they are not having a great success because of the inner strife. And because of the heroes that have managed to deal some bold strikes on their ranks of course.
Zevox 07-19-05, 10:37 AM	On Halaster, his insanity was transfered to Asmodeus by Mystra during the whole Elminster in Hell episode in exchange for Halaster's help in freeing El from Nergal's clutches (even though Halaster ultimately failed, and it was The Simbul that had to rescue Elminster...). Zevox
Nynshari 07-19-05, 12:03 PM	I vote for the Army of Darkness. Not that it would be easy - I'm sure Waterdeep and their allies would put up a nice fight - but, in the end, they would fall as well. Some points, from my point of view: Skullport is more of a wild card that one might think. Of course, they hold no love for Waterdeep, but they also get no trouble from Waterdeep. The Lords are fairly consistent and predictable, and they fairly leave Skullport alone to do their business. They are reliable, even if they are enemies. Now, compare that to a Waterdeep run by demons. Do you think they would be content to soak up the sun in Waterdeep and leave Skullport alone? No way, and you'd better believe that the inhabitants of Skullport would know this, seeing as how they are pretty much of the same mind as the demons. The Lords and the demons - both enemies; but, the Lords are and enemy that leaves them fairly enough alone, and the demons are an enemy that will eventually attack them. Who would you back? Halaster, I think, would be more apt to do absolutely nothing. He's nigh impossible to touch in Undermountain and would have nothing to fear from the AoD. he has no love for Waterdeep or the Lords, and would get just as many amusing wanderers in his halls from a demon crontrolled Waterdeep as a Lords controlled Waterdeep. Unless given a nice incentive by either party, I see him ignoring the entire affair. The surrounding lands are also a wild card. Obviously, places like Luskan would join, or at least not oppose, the AoD. Or would they? You have to remember that while Waterdeep has many enemies, they are also a very powerful commercial and trade city. If Waterdeep fell, a great many economies would suffer losses. Big losses. Especially those farther to the north, like Luskan. The question is: do these enemies of Waterdeep want to take that chance of a fallen economy and other serious lacks just to replace the human Lords with demon Lords? Evil doesn't mean stupid, and demons are not noted for keeping their words and alliances. As for the Chosen, well, evil doesn't mean stupid. I think that it is conceivable that the leaders of the AoD would find some way of distracting at least a couple of the Chosen, making sure they were occupied elsewhere and so unable to aid Waterdeep. For example, take what happened in Forsaken House; the AoD could arrange for a nice sized distraction that would occupy most of the miltary force of the Silver Marshes, at a notable distance from their homeland. Then Alustriel gets the call for help. Does she go to Waterdeep and leave her own country open to retaliation with no defense (as most of her army is away)? Not that she couldn't eventually get there, I'm sure, but this is just an example. When people are foced to choose between protecting their own homes or the homes of others, most will chose their own, if the threat seems equal in both places. And what about other powers in the Realms, like, say, the Red Wizards and the Zhentarim? They are all about commerce, whether in the open or in secret, and what better trading post is there than Waterdeep? How much would their plans be helped or hindered by a demon-controlled Waterdeep? Just some things to think about. But, for what it's worth, I still put my money on the AoD ;)
createvmind 07-19-05, 12:47 PM	OK lets take it from the top Yes Fflar did kill the Mezz that slew him, I believe the little tidbit is in the new Baker series. Even fractured as it was, the defenses of Myth Drannor by far exceed those of Waterdeep, some of the best Mages, Bladesingers, archers, fighters, cleric etc....more than has existed in one place since the crown wars. We're talking a dozen of these possibly for every chosen you mentioned in Waterdeep, or that would come to defense of waterdeep. Lets forget the the terrors that lead the army and just compose the army of majority monsters, orcs, gobs, gnolls, etc and of course DEMONS. There in lies the defeat for Waterdeep, the standing army of Myth and all it's Champions wielded magic weapons without question, that is not nor would be the case in Waterdeep. That means the fiends would have little to fear from Waterdeep's army and it's not likely that cold-iron weapons are just laying around either. There's no immunity to sleep, saves vs enchantments as well except for whatever elf-kin live in Waterdeep. Because of the layout of Waterdeep, mobilization would be almost impossible in defense against demons. They could fly and teleport all about the city with nothing to stop them, waterdeep weakness is aerial attacks. MOST importantly, during the times of trouble a small force of demons were in Waterdeep and wreaked havoc, now imagine a demon horde comparable to the army of darkness, even if you have lesser demons composing most of it. AND a massive monster army laying seige to it's walls, which means for walls to be defended and or missle fire to be effective you have to utilize troops. Any troops in open, upon battlement, manning catapults are at risk from demons aerial assault. The chosen have limits and only so many spells at their disposal and the use of silver fire once per hour or something like that. Certain dragons would be hard pressed to take on so many demons as well, collateral damage to Waterdeep alone would be tremendous from magic, spell abilities and just falling bodies. Now what is the most important factor is how this army arrives and from where and how long before it's noticed. We can exclude the sea route of course, so if coming from the north then the question is where is the army meet at, Myth was prepared to fight within their MYthal but had several running battles outside of it hoping to disrupt army. Approach from any other direction means others cities at risk and Waterdeep must send aid to help them or not, whichever way it works it would be disastorous for the humans. A standing army would have to be composed in whatever time is possible of dragons,chosen, champions and whoever would send aid and best bet to meet army on prepared ground. In all probability the army of darkness would gather and march from the north and I think that presents the most danger for Waterdeep as well because Luskan, Neverwinter and all surrounding cities must send troops by sea or try to fight way through a demon lead army :( . All in all Waterdeep will take severe losses, I mean possibly losing Chosen, gaurdian dragons and other one of a kind defenders...etc........
Darrian 07-19-05, 02:12 PM	From the top, you are right and you are wrong. Fflar did kill Almpiter but it is detailed in Lost Empires of Faerun. I don't think the prelude of Bakers book 1 actually states that Fflar kills Almpiter. You are so right about the need for magic weapons, most yugoloths have DR and so do the demons. Yikes! I would have the Army of Darkness form in the Evermoors, quitely, and start marching Southwest towards Waterdeep as soon as they either had the numbers needed or were detected and forced to fight. I am planning on the trio nefarious gathering many of the orc, goblinoid and giant tribes of the north and summoning yugoloths like crazy. The trio would also have other NPC help, maybe Obould could be persuaded to gather a horde and threaten Silverymoon in order to keep them away from Waterdeeps defense. I am not sure that there are enough orcs and goblinoids in the north to recreate the vast numbers of the Army of Darkness (250,000+!), so am working on a back-up plan of recreating a portal to a certain orc world and inviting them to join if I need to. Thanks for the input everyone, Darrian
createvmind 07-19-05, 03:55 PM	Its in book 2 I believe :D
Darrian 07-19-05, 04:53 PM	That's just what I need, another reason to reread "Farthest Reach". Thanks, Darrian
Slime Lord 07-19-05, 05:23 PM	All of those of you talking about Halaster and the Chosen, and the physical defenses of Waterdeep - have you taken a good look through Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves? The magical protections that they had more than made up for a harbor and a high wall. Even in normal D&D campaign, high walls mean almost nothing when magic is involved, let alone when fiends are involved. One of the Dragon issues dealing with Abyssal fortresses has some information about fortifying against fiends - it's nigh impossible. And for those of you who keep bringing up Halaster, Elminster, etc., as has already been pointed out, Myth Drannor had anywhere between 2-4 Chosen defending it, and almost every noble house had a House Wizard of at least 18th level. That means, on a safe estimate, at least a dozen EPIC level wizards. And the Army of Darkness still defeated it. Waterdeep would be gone. I'm not saying it would be an easy fight, but it would be ruined. See, I must disagree. Many do keep up bringing Halaster for good reasons. We all know easily that he alone is a Chosen in his own right. We all know he's insane and evilesk. But we dont know how many Epic creatures, creations and apprentices he has under his belt (dead, alive or otherwise). Myth didn't have Halaster and a Mountain behind their door, or a city under with at least three different goddesses, (excluding Waukeen due to her TN) who would call upon their clergy to help. Along with Nations and otherwise.
GothicDan 07-19-05, 05:39 PM	True, Kuje. You're right on those accounts. :) However, I think it would be a little unfair to compare Myth Drannor to Waterdeep in terms of possibilities of alliances/deities aiding Myth Drannor, as that's a variable one really can't count on. It would be really different if in this discussion we counted among Waterdeep's powers/defenses to be the Lord's Alliance, and Skullport, and the like. But so far it was just a straight on Army of Darkness vs. Waterdeep... If we DID take into account all of Waterdeep's allies... We'd have to look at things very differently, I think. :)
Kuje31 07-19-05, 05:40 PM	See, I must disagree. Many do keep up bringing Halaster for good reasons. We all know easily that he alone is a Chosen in his own right. We all know he's insane and evilesk. But we dont know how many Epic creatures, creations and apprentices he has under his belt (dead, alive or otherwise). Myth didn't have Halaster and a Mountain behind their door, or a city under with at least three different goddesses, (excluding Waukeen due to her TN) who would call upon their clergy to help. Along with Nations and otherwise. Halaster is not a Chosen! GAH! And he could have helped in Myth Drannor if he wanted to since he had gates to Myth Drannor. He used to kidnap people from the Naturalists guild.
Darrian 07-19-05, 06:16 PM	Isn't every highpowered NPC wizard a chosen of Mystra? (kidding) Halasters kidnappings might have been more effective as a deterrent had he informed the elves of Myth Drannor of his actions. LOL Gotta love crazy people. Darrian (Anyone seen my apprentice?)
Slime Lord 07-19-05, 06:58 PM	Halaster is not a Chosen! GAH! And he could have helped in Myth Drannor if he wanted to since he had gates to Myth Drannor. He used to kidnap people from the Naturalists guild. I know this I know this. Trust me, I know this. I did say "in his own right". I didn't mean he was a Chosen in the same sense, just if your that old, that powerful and all the other fun stuff, let's face it. But would you settle for "Champion" of Mystra instead when people call him a Chosen of Mystra?
Kuje31 07-19-05, 07:17 PM	I know this I know this. Trust me, I know this. I did say "in his own right". I didn't mean he was a Chosen in the same sense, just if your that old, that powerful and all the other fun stuff, let's face it. But would you settle for "Champion" of Mystra instead when people call him a Chosen of Mystra? No, because he is neither. :) He's something but Chosen he is not and Champion he isn't either. There's many archmages, and lesser mages, that are watched over by Mystra.
Slime Lord 07-19-05, 07:30 PM	No, because he is neither. :) He's something but Chosen he is not and Champion he isn't either. There's many archmages, and lesser mages, that are watched over by Mystra. Ah, an Insane Escort than. Nice ;)
Kuje31 07-19-05, 07:34 PM	Ah, an Insane Escort than. Nice ;) He's not insane anymore either, except for the times he relapses for a bit and then becomes "sane" again.
Slime Lord 07-19-05, 08:03 PM	He's not insane anymore either, except for the times he relapses for a bit and then becomes "sane" again. Ah but he's still an escort ;)
WraithCaller 07-19-05, 10:06 PM	Wow Wraithcaller, very well written. I definitely learned a few things from your post. Where would I find info on Ch'chitl? This possible campaign of mine is definitely getting more complicated. Darrian In Underdark, if you have it. Otherwise I could just fill you in on some of the more important points. And as for the Zhentarim and Red Wizards, I wouldn't count either as participating in any way. Certainly, a Demon-Controlled Waterdeep would be beneficial for them, but even if Szass or Fzoul found out about the AoD in advance, what are the chances that they'd be able to make an important contributions to it? Both are practically on the other end of Faerun, and even with teleportation spells, They probably wouldn't manage to send any major support. I strongly belive that Luskan, if not outright marching with the AoD, would still aid it in some way. Imagine - They could not only eliminate their enemies without fully risking themselves, AND once the dust has cleared, guess who will be in a prime spot to take over as center of trade throughout the North? After all? What are the chances of other empires trading with a demon-ruled city, or better yet, the chances that the AoD would stay in Waterdeep? Most likely, they'd leave some form rulership and move on to Silverymoon, Neverwinter, Baldur's Gate, ect. or even go into hiding. After all, if you wipe out the greatest city in Faerun, it's bound to attract attention from some less-than-friendly-to-evil people. And on Halaster again, does that mean that Asmodeus is now insane, or does his power as the king of hell make him immune to such a petty mortal ailment?
Kuje31 07-20-05, 01:14 AM	Speaking of Waterdeep, here's a new web article: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rl/20050720a
Slime Lord 07-20-05, 10:00 AM	Now who ever said demons, devils and gods aren't going to get a human ailment? I mean we DO have Cyric....if you think of him as being :)
Nynshari 07-20-05, 10:52 AM	And as for the Zhentarim and Red Wizards, I wouldn't count either as participating in any way. Certainly, a Demon-Controlled Waterdeep would be beneficial for them, but even if Szass or Fzoul found out about the AoD in advance, what are the chances that they'd be able to make an important contributions to it? Both are practically on the other end of Faerun, and even with teleportation spells, They probably wouldn't manage to send any major support. They may not participate on the direct front, but, you know, any allies Waterdeep has, well, they have to travel to Waterdeep, don't they? The Red Wizards and Zhentarim could join or hinder the relief efforts of Waterdeep's allies, they could decide to attack the somewhat-less-protected allies once the relief was sent to Waterdeep, requiring the relief armies to return home rather than continue to Waterdeep, the mere threat of their attack once an army was dispatched to Waterdeep might be enough to prevent any aid from being sent at all, etc. There are many ways that they could affect the situation, and some of them could include doing nothing but just ... being there. I strongly belive that Luskan, if not outright marching with the AoD, would still aid it in some way. Imagine - They could not only eliminate their enemies without fully risking themselves, AND once the dust has cleared, guess who will be in a prime spot to take over as center of trade throughout the North? After all? What are the chances of other empires trading with a demon-ruled city, or better yet, the chances that the AoD would stay in Waterdeep? Most likely, they'd leave some form rulership and move on to Silverymoon, Neverwinter, Baldur's Gate, ect. or even go into hiding. After all, if you wipe out the greatest city in Faerun, it's bound to attract attention from some less-than-friendly-to-evil people. And I agree, Luskan would definitely drool at the possibility, they might even begin to make/set in motion certain plans. Hells, they may even go through with it. But if Waterdeep fell, the next in line I think for a major trade city would be Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter, then Luskan in 3rd place. They'd have to get the AoD to wipe out the other two cities to become the big trade city in the north and, if you ask me, if Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter all fall to the AoD, I think people will start passing trade through less risky areas, avoiding that part of the route altogether - so at least, in this way, they wouldn't gain much. Don't forget, too, that, just waht you said could happen probably would happen: the AoD isn't going to just sit and soak it up in Waterdeep, contented with their conquest. Hells no, they are going to want more, more, more. And don't you think that Luskan would be on the menu? If Waterdeep couldn't prevail against the AoD, Luskan sure couldn't, and they would know it. Demons aren't known for keeping their word, so being their allies gets Luskan nothing, and any allies they could muster would be far less than what Waterdeep had. Not to mention that most anyone capable of sending aid, well, that aid most likely would have bit the big one in or around Waterdeep, and they've got their own lands to think about.
GothicDan 07-20-05, 11:08 AM	There weren't any Demons in the Army of Darkness. ;)
Darrian 07-20-05, 02:07 PM	Yugoloths, lot's and lot's of Yugoloths. I wish there were Yugoloth DnD mini's. Darrian (Go Yugoloths!)
Sigurd van Norhusen 07-20-05, 02:30 PM	On of the thoughts that pop up in my head when thinking about this scenario is a mad archmage (maybe Halaster, if nobody else is around) summoning a couple hundred Gehreleths in return. I'm pretty sure that they would love to destroy an army forged by their archenemies, even more than your average Celestial.
GothicDan 07-20-05, 03:15 PM	You can't summon that many gehreleths; there is a set maximum number of them at any given time, and only a third of that number is actually "unbottled" and ready for action. I can't quite remember the actual numbers off the top of my head, though. Was it 33,333 Gehreleths active at any time? (looking for Kuje, Shemmy, Rip, or the like to answer that)
Sigurd van Norhusen 07-20-05, 03:52 PM	The maximum is 9999, I think. With Apomps being #10000. Although it can be doubled it the need arises.
GothicDan 07-20-05, 03:56 PM	I knew it was multiples of 3. It's been so long that I've looked through my Planescape stuff that I fear I will go through withdrawl. So, doubled, 19,998, plus 1 Apomps = 19,999? Are you sure that's right? The 1 looks off... In any event, an army of 9,999 gehreleths, even if any single caster had the power to summon them (which one wouldn't, and Apomps probably wouldn't allow it) wouldn't be enough to take out the Army of Darkness. Well... Maybe. Or at least make them scatter.
Demetrios 07-20-05, 04:09 PM	You can't summon that many gehreleths; there is a set maximum number of them at any given time, and only a third of that number is actually "unbottled" and ready for action. I can't quite remember the actual numbers off the top of my head, though. Was it 33,333 Gehreleths active at any time? (looking for Kuje, Shemmy, Rip, or the like to answer that) 3,333 of each of the three types at any time, although the number can be doubled in an emergency.
Kuje31 07-20-05, 04:09 PM	You can't summon that many gehreleths; there is a set maximum number of them at any given time, and only a third of that number is actually "unbottled" and ready for action. I can't quite remember the actual numbers off the top of my head, though. Was it 33,333 Gehreleths active at any time? (looking for Kuje, Shemmy, Rip, or the like to answer that) Sigurd got it right. 9,999 with Apomps being 10,000. There's 3,333 in each type. It can expand to 19,998.
Sigurd van Norhusen 07-20-05, 04:25 PM	Well, I didn't think they would take the AoD on alone. I figured they would attack them like (intelligent) rabid dogs, so that the other defenders can attack more coordinated. Hell, they problably know each and every weakpoint of all the Yugoloth castes, so just getting information from a Shator (although I don't think I want to think about the price) might help the defenders.
GothicDan 07-20-05, 04:29 PM	Ha. I knew the 3's I had were coming from somewhere.
Arilou_skiff 07-20-05, 04:33 PM	In any event, an army of 9,999 gehreleths, even if any single caster had the power to summon them (which one wouldn't, and Apomps probably wouldn't allow it) wouldn't be enough to take out the Army of Darkness. Not sure about the 3rd. ed. stats but it was noted that the highest-caste Gehelreths are equals or even superiors, to pit fiends or Balors. Quite capable of tearing them to shreds. Now, recall that the Trio, for all their skill, are mere Nyacaloths...
Demetrios 07-20-05, 05:29 PM	Not sure about the 3rd. ed. stats but it was noted that the highest-caste Gehelreths are equals or even superiors, to pit fiends or Balors. Quite capable of tearing them to shreds. Now, recall that the Trio, for all their skill, are mere Nyacaloths... According to the Fiend Folio, shators are CR 16, which puts them below the pit fiend/balor CR of 20. Of course, you can always advance the shator - the max HD given in the FF would give it 45 HD, which would increase its CR to 31... Nycaloths are of course only CR 10, but I would assume that the Trio Nefarious were much more like the CR 17 Nycaloth Commanders from the MM3... Demetrios (who has all this info listed neatly in chart format for his upcoming online game. Be afraid Arilou, be very afraid! :D )
Darrian 07-20-05, 05:43 PM	I think it might be fair to assume that the Trio Nefarious were Nycoloth commanders that were further advanced. The thought that a group of 3 CR 17 baddies can gather a quarter of a million troops and command so many Yugoloths, many of which were Nycoloths themselves. And most importantly take the field against the highest level elven defenders of Myth Drannor and win stretches the bounds of credibility. What I am saying is that those three were undoubtedly bad asses. To the point of gehelreths, why did they not take part in the Weeping War. I am sure they were aware of thousands of Yugoloths gathering on the prime material plane. Darrian (love to see official write-ups of those 3)
Ioulaum 07-20-05, 06:09 PM	I think it might be fair to assume that the Trio Nefarious were Nycoloth commanders that were further advanced. The thought that a group of 3 CR 17 baddies can gather a quarter of a million troops and command so many Yugoloths, many of which were Nycoloths themselves. And most importantly take the field against the highest level elven defenders of Myth Drannor and win stretches the bounds of credibility. What I am saying is that those three were undoubtedly bad asses. To the point of gehelreths, why did they not take part in the Weeping War. I am sure they were aware of thousands of Yugoloths gathering on the prime material plane. Darrian (love to see official write-ups of those 3) You forgot they were actually under the command of a Ex-Solar. The trio might have been the face of the army but they were not the real leader of it.
Darrian 07-20-05, 06:17 PM	True, Malkizid did lead them, although it is unclear to what extent he participated. Nonetheless, the trio Nefarious would have to be very powerful to stand up to the army of Myth Drannor on the field of battle. Gaulgath fought in many battles as did Almpiter later in the campaign. Obviously, the Elves would have emplyed the scry/die trick on them if they were weak. Darrian
Shemeska the Marauder 07-20-05, 09:04 PM	I think it might be fair to assume that the Trio Nefarious were Nycoloth commanders that were further advanced. The thought that a group of 3 CR 17 baddies can gather a quarter of a million troops and command so many Yugoloths, many of which were Nycoloths themselves. And most importantly take the field against the highest level elven defenders of Myth Drannor and win stretches the bounds of credibility. What I am saying is that those three were undoubtedly bad asses. Give Nycaloths some levels in rogue or ranger and you've got some badasses. Advance their HD nothing, give them class levels. They're Blood War veterans, as are most Nycaloths given their role in their caste, and it's as safe an assumption that they'll be advanced in power just as the average mortal wizard in Myth Drannor was going to be more than a Wizard 1. You forgot they were actually under the command of a Ex-Solar. The trio might have been the face of the army but they were not the real leader of it. Like any good yugoloth they were mercenaries, bought and paid for by Malkazid. Like the yugoloth heirarchy would honestly care about a city on a mortal world. Malkazid on the other hand he had a beef with the seldarine and took it out on their worshippers (something which the yugoloths are themselves well acquainted with, given the reasons that deities don't interfere in the Blood War...)
The Simbul 07-20-05, 09:12 PM	Actually, now that I've gotten a copy of City of Splendors, its a bit easier to comment on the defenses. As far as the cities magical defenses go; Waterdeep is also enmeshed in a variety of magical wards, the effects of which are largely unknown, even (in some cases) to Khelben. Only Ahghairon and Halaster had or have a near-complete understanding of Waterdeep's magical defenses...(the rest of the paragraph simply gives the geographical distance and extend of the wards, which presumably encompass most of the city itself, but doesnt name any specific spells, effects, or details.) This basically means they have whatever defenses the DM was to put in place, without giving the kind of set-in-stone defenses you would find in the Wards of Silverymoon or the like. It allows you to place whatever wards you want to exist there, without being forced to account for something you dont want in effect, or having over-eager players try to find loopholes in the cities defenses which would occur if you gave an exact full account of what spell effects defend the city). In addition, Waterdeed's resident spellcasters have used their powers to help defend the city against attack. The city does have two known existing mythal powers; Ahghairon's Dragonward and the Melairshield. The dragonward is an epic mythal spell that surrounds the city in an Antipathy effect that functions against Dragons, with a save DC around 40+. The prevalent power is a keyed to Ahghairon's Dragonstaff, which can allow a Dragon to bypass the ward if touched by the Staff, or have the Dragon be subjected to the ward again if struck by the Staff. The staff itself is currently in the possession of some NPC whose name escapes me, but he apparently uses it to allow certain Dragons into the city. There is also a mythal around Ahghairon's tower as well, but is is mainly just a bunch of elaborate wards to keep people from looting his stuff. Members of the Gray Hand Encforcer PrC have an ability that allows them to use the Dragonward to increase the damage from their attacks of spells. The Melairshield is basically a remnant of the elven high magic city which Waterdeep is built upon, and it serves to keep the plateau the city resides on from collapsing or anything due to the mining the dwarves did beneath it (which is now Undermountain). Assuming the city has no major wards against armies of evil outsiders, I could imagine Khelben or Laeral finding some way to expand the keyed aspect of the Dragonward to also affect whatever creatures might try to besiege the city, or maybe even add another effect to the Mythal. While neither Khelben or Laeral have the Epic Spellcasting feat, there are numerous instances in other 3.5 sourcebooks that mention certain NPC's using epic spells even though they dont have the feat (Champions of Ruin states that the Ritual of Twin Burnings is an epic spell, even though Szass Tam oficially doesnt have the feat he still used it). In addition, as per the Last Mythal trilogy, Sarya Dlardrageth was able to alter and twist some of the powers of Myth Glaurach's mythal using spells that werent quite Elven High Magic, but were just below it. While she couldnt alter the core of the mythal itself, and her changes could have been easily undone, they did serve to twist the mythal to her purposes. As a sun elf half-fiend Sor18, she is statistically incapable of even having the Epic Spellcasting feat, and as per the novel she didnt possess a Selu'Kiira. So if a hack of a Sorceress like Sarya can warp a Mythal to her purposes, then I imagine someone like Khelben (who actually helped raise the Mythal of Myth Glaurach, possibly Myth Drannor, and others), and Laeral (who centuries ago raised wards around the Host Tower of the Arcane to imprison Netherese Liches and Demiliches in a demiplane tied to the tower), then I am sure given their resources and insight of the Art, they could find a way to expand the keyed aspect of the Antipathy effect to other creatures as well if the need was truly dire.
Slime Lord 07-20-05, 09:41 PM	OK, I have silly little Chosen+Mystra+Waterdeep= question I read from another thread that Demons are evil because everyone believes them to be evil. Thus taking on Evil. Now, *if* Waterdeep is to be attacked, and Khelben/Other Chosen thinks about this and calls upon Mystra and the city to do the following. Would it be *remotely* possible for Khelben to sacrafice him self in order to create a Spell, with aid of Mystra (Note that Khelben would only be sacraficed after the spell) in order to direct the "belife" of the entire city (Again, keep in mind Khelben has done his boomey voice thing here and has told everyone of the Waterhavians, one way or another) So, is it possible that Khelben with a "Belife" Spell target at the Army, could turn this groups alliance over to a different alliance in order to prevent the Evil to continue? Does that make any sense to people? I know I could see Khelben doing this for his City, whether Mystra would allow him though of course is a different question.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-20-05, 10:12 PM	OK, I have silly little Chosen+Mystra+Waterdeep= question I read from another thread that Demons are evil because everyone believes them to be evil. Thus taking on Evil. Not demons, Yugoloths. They're the physical manifestation of raw Evil, abstract ideals made flesh. They don't even have a direct connection to mortal souls/petitioners, they arise from their native planes spontaneously. They're alien, seperated from mortals by a difference in basic nature that is nearly insurmountable. Really, they're not evil, if that's the name you call it, they simply want a perfect universe, and that perfection is wholly devoid of mercy. In theory if the basic concept of Evil across all of existance was altered, they would reflect that change in thought and action, but for such a vast concept, it's unlikely to occur. Think of it like a massively buffered solution, that even if you dump in straight HCL or NaOH the pH won't fluctuate in the slightest till you hit a critical threshold and then it starts to change. And this would assume the fiends in question don't take action to reinforce what Evil means. Yugoloths view the universe as something akin to a battlefield between the raw cardinal alignments, with themselves as the chosen servants of abstract Evil (heralds of their own creators). They view the Blood War as massive experiment into evil, and the prime material as secondary, a source of raw belief and focus of suffering in which they can play, and which also has given rise to deities (which the 'loths despise at their core). In order to have any realistic effect upon them you'd need to change the focus of belief regarding Evil, and the actions by mortals that typify those two ideals, across the entire multiverse, not just Waterdeep, and not just all of Toril itself.
Alac Luin 07-20-05, 10:17 PM	I understand, but it's not possible. To change the alignment to bring demons to the other side would require changing the belief system of the entire world for a long period of time before fiends would be effected in the slightest. In the mean time, the fiends would do evil acts, and so then people will believe them to be evil, negating this spell. It's more likely Khelben could sacrifice himself to block fiendish blood from entering waterdeep. This would include some rightful members of the society...
Darrian 07-21-05, 12:18 AM	To comment on Shemeska's post. I have written up all three of the Trio Nefarious for my upcoming campaign and you are totally right, adding levels to them is the way to go. Gaulgath got levels in Barbarian and frenzied berzerker and became a freakin killing machine. Heartclever helped too! Malimshaer got levels in Rogue and assassin and is truly the scariest of the 3. Aulmpiter got levels in sorcerer, and while he was supposed to be the strongest of the three, sorcerer just does not improve him as much as the other classes helped Mal and Gaul. Have I mentioned that I love Yugoloths? It is a shame that they get the least billing of the evil outsiders. Still no D&D mini's of them. Darrian
Shemeska the Marauder 07-21-05, 12:23 AM	To comment on Shemeska's post. I have written up all three of the Trio Nefarious for my upcoming campaign and you are totally right, adding levels to them is the way to go. Gaulgath got levels in Barbarian and frenzied berzerker and became a freakin killing machine. Heartclever helped too! Malimshaer got levels in Rogue and assassin and is truly the scariest of the 3. Aulmpiter got levels in sorcerer, and while he was supposed to be the strongest of the three, sorcerer just does not improve him as much as the other classes helped Mal and Gaul. Would you mind sending me your writeups? You've got me curious. Have I mentioned that I love Yugoloths? It is a shame that they get the least billing of the evil outsiders. Still no D&D mini's of them. Darrian *'lothy grin* Something tells me that you'd like my storyhour (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=77613&origin=) then http://arcanofox.foxpaws.net/shemmywrite.gif
Arilou_skiff 07-21-05, 04:24 AM	According to the Fiend Folio, shators are CR 16, which puts them below the pit fiend/balor CR of 20. Of course, you can always advance the shator - the max HD given in the FF would give it 45 HD, which would increase its CR to 31... Fiend Folio is 3.0. though, isn't it? In any case Faces of Evil clearly states that a Shator is a match for a Balor or Pit Fiend.
Demetrios 07-21-05, 06:29 AM	Fiend Folio is 3.0. though, isn't it? In any case Faces of Evil clearly states that a Shator is a match for a Balor or Pit Fiend. Nope, FF came out during the transition from 3.0 to 3.5, and thus is for all intents and purposes 3.5...
Alac Luin 07-21-05, 12:56 PM	There are still a few changes made to the FF to make it fully 3.5 compatible. Namely- Damage Reduction, Construct Pricing, and rules on Swarms. get the booklets to make the updates here... http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a
Slime Lord 07-21-05, 03:02 PM	There are still a few changes made to the FF to make it fully 3.5 compatible. Namely- Damage Reduction, Construct Pricing, and rules on Swarms. get the booklets to make the updates here... http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a I'm devistated that my idea hasn't gotten more people to talk about it, considering I thought it was a preety decent and plausible idea for Waterdeep... :waits:
Alac Luin 07-21-05, 03:55 PM	I'm devistated that my idea hasn't gotten more people to talk about it, considering I thought it was a preety decent and plausible idea for Waterdeep... :waits: I'm not sure what this has to do with my post that you quoted, but anyways... It just may be that many people have grown tired of people comeing up with a new way to destroy Waterdeep and find the fall of Myth Drannor a much more interesting topic. EDIT: My mistake, I realize now what you are talking about, but still has nothing to do with what you quoted. There is nothing about it talk about, it can't happen period.
GothicDan 07-21-05, 04:52 PM	like Khelben (who actually helped raise the Mythal of Myth Glaurach, possibly Myth Drannor, and others) I don't recall him being present during the casting of the Wizardly Mythal of Myth Drannor. The primary casters were all Elven High Mages. Elminster, I believe, was in the group of secondary casters, but I don't recall Khelben being around at that time. then I am sure given their resources and insight of the Art, they could find a way to expand the keyed aspect of the Antipathy effect to other creatures as well if the need was truly dire. But remember we also have proof of a ragtag horde of Orcs bypassing a mythal with Antipathy built into it, and they didn't even have Nycaloths (or fallen Solar, if you prefer) leading them. Also, has LEoF addressed the fact that Elven Mythals are weakened and corrupted by the presence of Evil Outsiders? Because the said would happen to the warding of the Melairshield, as its basically a very ancient Mythal. And if this corruption is no longer present in 3E, then, retroactively, Myth Drannor most likely would not have fallen, as it could have continued to keep out all of the hordes that were pressing at the kingdom's borders.
GothicDan 07-21-05, 04:58 PM	I'm devistated that my idea hasn't gotten more people to talk about it, considering I thought it was a preety decent and plausible idea for Waterdeep... I consider it implausible given the same reasons that Shemmy already pointed out, myself. :)
Slime Lord 07-21-05, 08:00 PM	I consider it implausible given the same reasons that Shemmy already pointed out, myself. :) Bleh on all of you... :D And I just quote you because I was lazy to click "new post" :cool:
Nightbane 07-22-05, 04:42 AM	And he could have helped in Myth Drannor if he wanted to since he had gates to Myth Drannor. He used to kidnap people from the Naturalists guild. That's the thing. Everyone seems to be forgetting that he did use the gates during the war. In fact, he is probably one of the primary reasons that Myth Drannor fell. Instead of helping the city, he decided to repay his debt and send some of his pets from Undermountian through, and at some very inoppertune times for the elves. With Waterdeep, however, I don't think he'd be doing the same. If for nothing else than the fact that I seriously doubt he'd want the AoD invading his home next.
Dark_beebles 07-22-05, 10:31 AM	If the loths were "alive" which they arent, and lets say they are back...why wouldnt they Summon/wish/miracle some of the heros of old back? Halaster wouldnt remind neutral..if they take waterdeep they can take him out..you think he would trust them to keep their word? Hell no lol. Waterdeep could erect a mythal if it wanted to keep the fiends out anyways. 9 chosens and elven help (if needed). About the portals in drannor...they werent working, read in the Lost empires..it stated that the drow prevented aid from the outside, It didnt state how they stopped it..but that they did. 2 Biggest factors are imo Is how would the shades, and larloch take to this occurance....If waterdeep falls....with all those power house wizards...i would be scared. Shades with all their power couldnt hold back the army if all of the chosens of mystra/halaster couldnt. larloch might but would you take that chance of losing out on over 2 thousand years of research, and time on a guess? Also you gotta remember...Alot of things changed in that time..new spells, "Prestige class's" Came up that werent around back then as well. More knowledge and power is available to them that they didnt have back then. I am sure that some of those Epic wizards made a few spells for something like that happening again wouldnt you think? Like a massive death/banish spell? And waterdeep could make a mythal if they wanted to. Waterdeep 75% chance to win..but it would cost them dearly and the city would never recover from the ammount of death and evil that would plague the lands. So...Waterdeep would still fall but would win the battle against them in my eyes.
GothicDan 07-22-05, 11:08 AM	Waterdeep could erect a mythal if it wanted to keep the fiends out anyways. 9 chosens and elven help (if needed). A) The Elves are so beat up at the moment that they won't be helping ANYONE. B) The presence of evil Outsiders corrupted elven mythals. Shades with all their power couldnt hold back the army if all of the chosens of mystra/halaster couldnt. larloch might but would you take that chance of losing out on over 2 thousand years of research, and time on a guess? Barring alliances, I would say that Shade is at least as powerful as Waterdeep, most likely moreso. After the AoD was severely weakened after taking Waterdeep, they most likely wouldn't get any further before someone else stomped them. That being said, most of the AoD was made up of simple normal humanoids - gnolls, giants, ogres, etc. These were the types of creatures that the Netherese Enclaves were specifically made to counter. The very fact that the Enclave is flying would prevent the bulk of the AoD's troops from even trying to attack it, not to mention the fact that the Shades have the Blue Dragons of the Anauroch to aid them, plus an entire mounted cavalry, so they can just rain death endlessly down upon the hordes. And as powerful as the Trio were, I don't think that they could bring Shade to the ground. Half a dozen high-level Wizards/Chosen of Mystra couldn't do it, after all. So it would basically be all of the might of Shade versus a couple thousand Mezzoloths and a few Nycaloths. Not a good thing to go against, but without the sheer numbers of the humanoid hordes attacking them, Shade could more than repel the AoD, especially after it was weakened after taking Waterdeep. Also you gotta remember...Alot of things changed in that time..new spells, "Prestige class's" Came up that werent around back then as well. More knowledge and power is available to them that they didnt have back then. I am sure that some of those Epic wizards made a few spells for something like that happening again wouldnt you think? Like a massive death/banish spell? And waterdeep could make a mythal if they wanted to. Actually, the reverse is true. Magic was stronger during the time of Netheril and the Arcane Age. This is reflected in the fact that even after the Fall, there were no max caps on the Hit Dice of damaging spells; you could cast 20d6 fireballs as a 3rd level spell. And also, the Elves could still use 10th-level spells with impunity.
The Simbul 07-22-05, 12:43 PM	Mythals are only affected by the presence of hostile outsiders if they have the Anchored mitigating factor. In addition to forcing the mythal to make an integrity check if a hostile outside is present, the Anchored mitigating factor also forces the Mythal to make integrity checks when the physical area around it is altered in a drastic way. The purpose of the Melairshield was to keep the plateau standing even though the Dwarves were mining it out. Because this extensive mining would drastically altering the physical area where the Mythal resided, I imagine the Elven High Mages would have excluded the Anchored mitigating factor from the specific epic spell used to create that effect.
GothicDan 07-22-05, 01:56 PM	Mythals are only affected by the presence of hostile outsiders if they have the Anchored mitigating factor. In addition to forcing the mythal to make an integrity check if a hostile outside is present, the Anchored mitigating factor also forces the Mythal to make integrity checks when the physical area around it is altered in a drastic way. The purpose of the Melairshield was to keep the plateau standing even though the Dwarves were mining it out. Because this extensive mining would drastically altering the physical area where the Mythal resided, I imagine the Elven High Mages would have excluded the Anchored mitigating factor from the specific epic spell used to create that effect. Ah. Interesting. If they had had this option in 2E, I doubt that the Elven High Mages would have even used the Anchored mitigating factor, considering how powerful they were, they wouldn't have needed it. And thus, Myth Drannor probably would not have fallen. Therein lies the difficulty of trying to explain ancient history under current mechanics.
Sigurd van Norhusen 07-22-05, 03:31 PM	It is pretty simple to explain, really: evil will win because good is dumb. :P
Brom Greenstar 07-25-05, 08:04 AM	but wasn't Myth Drannor's mythal different from a standard High Magic mythal?
Nynshari 07-25-05, 11:11 AM	Mythals are only affected by the presence of hostile outsiders if they have the Anchored mitigating factor. In addition to forcing the mythal to make an integrity check if a hostile outside is present, the Anchored mitigating factor also forces the Mythal to make integrity checks when the physical area around it is altered in a drastic way. The purpose of the Melairshield was to keep the plateau standing even though the Dwarves were mining it out. Because this extensive mining would drastically altering the physical area where the Mythal resided, I imagine the Elven High Mages would have excluded the Anchored mitigating factor from the specific epic spell used to create that effect. What is this 'Anchored' factor? Was it one that was used widely except in certain circumstances? So, not only is the Melairshield most likely without this 'Anchored' factor, but, if Waterdeep wanted to create another mythal to protect itself and the elves actually had the time and resources to help them (which they are having a hell of a time helping themselves right now, so I don't think I see that happening), it would most likely take this same lack in its creation, making the mythal not vulnerable to the presence of evil/hostile creatures. Interesting ... And another point about Shade I'd like to tack on to Dan's excellent answer: Now, this is just my opinion, but they do have their own problems right now, in addition to the fact that they would most likely benefit from the AoD attacking Waterdeep and the nearby cities more than they would in helping to protect them. If Waterdeep and, say, Neverwinter, Baldur's Gate, the Silver Marshes, etc, were all weakened by their fighting with the AoD (who, though they may take Waterdeep, would eventually be destroyed by said allies), that would put Shade in a very handy, very nice, very safe, and somewhat more powerful, position than they already are, especially with Cormyr still weakened. They would most likely attempt to weasle their way into each of the trouble countries after the fighting had ceased, offering 'assistance' where needed. Not that they would all of them accept any help from Shade, as a whole, but certain powerful individuals might. Having the slightest chance to get themselves into some kind of position of power with these very important cities would be enough, I think, for them to sit back, pop some popcorn, and watch the fun ...
Kuje31 07-25-05, 12:28 PM	but wasn't Myth Drannor's mythal different from a standard High Magic mythal? It is a wizardy mythal, aye.
Alac Luin 07-25-05, 07:17 PM	It is a wizardy mythal, aye. Is it just me, of does it appear that WotC makes no distinction between the differences? Heck, they keep calling Silverymoon's layers of wards a Mythal.
GothicDan 07-25-05, 07:22 PM	Silverymoon's mythal is a true Mythal. It has been around since the time of Myth Drannor, and could have easily been lain down long-ago by Elven High Mages. But, that being said, you are otherwise correct.
Kuje31 07-25-05, 07:29 PM	Is it just me, of does it appear that WotC makes no distinction between the differences? Heck, they keep calling Silverymoon's layers of wards a Mythal. Then that's WOTC's problem because there is a difference between the two. :)
The Simbul 07-25-05, 07:31 PM	According to Lost Empires of Faerun, the Wards of Silverymoon are a Wizardly Mythal raised by Alustriel and several other Wizards acting together in 843 DR, although it is more than likely she wasnt the primary spellcaster. It has with the Anchored and Corruptible mitigating factors, which apparently are common among Wizardly Mythals. Both factors reduce the spellcraft DC of the Mythal spell by 1/4. Being Corruptible means the mythal is not truly permanent and decays over time, making "integrity checks" every so often after the tentative duration expires, and individual powers of the Mythal can vanish, be warped into an opposing effect, have their keys changed, etc if the Mythal fails these checks. Anchored mythals are tied to the area and state of the Weave around them, and must make integrity checks when something drastic occurs to the surrounding landscape or city (like burning a forest of destroying buildings), or when a hostile outsider whose HD exceed the CL of the Mythal is present for 24 hours or more. In addition, Corruptible mythals can be maintained by Mythal Rejuvenation spells, and Anchored mythals can presumably have their powers restored with similar magic. However, in the case of Silverymoon these weaknesses arent as fatal as they would be in other Mythals, since the powers of the wards themselves can prevent most common tactics used to attack or damage an Anchored Mythal (the wards repel demons and devils, block teleportation and evil descriptor spells, block fire spells, can be used to extinguish fires, etc). Myth Glaurach and Myth Drannor, are also Wizardly Mythals, and at least according to the novels, they also have the capstone mitigating factor as well, although Silverymoons wards arent tied to a mythal stone.
GothicDan 07-25-05, 08:23 PM	Can't awe assume that the Anchored mitigating factor is currently in place in all known Elven High Magic mythals in the Realms, considering that was a generic characteristic of all mythals raised in 2E under Elven High Magic?
Alac Luin 07-25-05, 08:25 PM	Silverymoon's mythal is a true Mythal. It has been around since the time of Myth Drannor, and could have easily been lain down long-ago by Elven High Mages. Besides WotC saying it is a true Mythal, I see no evidence of such. First know inhabitants were humans. At this time there was no settlement, just a rope bridge.(This doesn't prove anything by itself) The first mention in history of any protection granted to Silverymoon was Mielikki and Lurue had a good time at a tavern that was eventually built there. (This tavern is no longer in existence, but stones from that building were placed into the city's walls. The magical wards were placed on the city in 694 DR by Ecmane Truesilver (unknown if this person is human or elf) Ecmane Truesilver is called High Mage, but that was a title as he was the leader of city. There is no real evidence that this was a Mythal raised by elvin high magic, while it was (before 3.0) always referred to as Mythal like Wards. EDIT: I did not see The Simbol's reply above. it looks like a few discrepancies between editions. :)
GothicDan 07-26-05, 01:55 PM	Well, and Cormanthyr specifically states that Silverymoon was a sister-city of Myth Drannor. :)
Alac Luin 07-26-05, 04:56 PM	Well, and Cormanthyr specifically states that Silverymoon was a sister-city of Myth Drannor. :) A sister in learning and to ideals of racial cooperation., and this is mentioned in several other sources. If you use the date that The Simbul gave from LEoF, the wards were not raised until after Myth Drannor's fall. WotC has changed the history of the Wards of Silverymoon, although in reasonable terms, as at that date it was established that is when the moon bridge was erected. So to me, the history change goes along with the definition change of what a true mythal is. Semantically, even LEoF calling it a Wizardly mythal shows it is different from an Elvin High Magic mythal, except that there is no longer a difference between elvin high magic and typical epic magic, which makes it convenient.
ElGrecoETAC 07-26-05, 05:47 PM	Here's a big thing to consider when deciding whether Waterdeep could withstand the Army of Darkness-- From Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves, pg. 119: Generic Akh'Velahrn: Cavalry Game Information: LN/LG any em/f F(1d6+4) or F/W (1d4+4 each); LG any em/f F(1d8+6) or F/W (1d6+5 each) (officers); ... Standard Equipment: Leather or elven chain mail, ... (1 weapon or armor may be magical), one small personal magical item;... elven chain or elven plate mail, ... (up to 3 weapons may be magical), 1d4 magical items (officer) Generic Akh'Velahrn: Infantry Game Information: Lawful moon em/f F or R(1d6+2); LN/LG moon/gold em/f F or R(1d4+6) (officer) Standard Equipment: Chain mail, long sword, one small personal magical item; elven chain, magical long or broad sword, 1d4 magical items (officer) Generic Akh'Velahrn: Protector (Bladesinger, etc.) Game Information: Lawful gold em/f F(1d6+2)/W(1d4+3); Lawful gold em/f F(1d8+4)/W(1d6+5) (officer) Standard Equipment: Elven chain mail, ... (at least half of all equipment should be of +1 enchantment); elven chain or plate mail, ... (at least half of all equipment should be of +2 enchantment) (officer) Over 3,000 men- and women-at-arms with multiple levels of heroic class experience and some magical items. Let me spell that out for you--the average elf infantryman is at least a 3rd level fighter, and as high as 8th level... And that's not even touching the Akh'Faern... ...this army contains at least 300 wizards between 4th and 8th level as the primary troops, 100 junior officers (9th to 12th level), and 50 senior officers (13th level+) below the Wizard-Major and her second. ... All this, by the way, is without the elves summoning up any levies, adventurers, private citizens, and the like. No offense to the metropolis of the Sword Coast, but I don't think her armies or spellcasters could match what Myth Drannor (Mythal and all!) had going for it.
Darrian 07-26-05, 05:59 PM	OMG! Greco are these numbers right? Is this, what's that word Kuje loves, canon? Damn that is powerful. Over 3000 troops each at least 3rd level, most higher? That Army of Darkness was crazy strong! Darrian
Kuje31 07-26-05, 06:20 PM	OMG! Greco are these numbers right? Is this, what's that word Kuje loves, canon? Damn that is powerful. Over 3000 troops each at least 3rd level, most higher? That Army of Darkness was crazy strong! Darrian Do grow up, thanks. Plus, stop trolling, thanks. And those were the troops of Myth Drannor, not the Army of Darkness.
ElGrecoETAC 07-26-05, 06:23 PM	They are straight out of a canon reference (Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves) that, to my knowledge, has not been superceded. It is my opinion that, save for a horde of Dragons, another legion of fiends, or someone of the caliber of Larloch/Iolaum, no other force on Faerun could have taken Myth Drannor. It's also important to remember this: if the elves of Myth Drannor were truly as bigoted and horrible as they are alluded to be, they could have used High Magic to blow the Army of Darkness to oblivion before they even came close to their homelands. It is very telling that they didn't sacrifice the very people they so purportedly hated just to save their own skins. One of the reasons why Cormanthyr was never re-built, I guess, is because the flower of that nation--its best, brightest, and most powerful--was sacrificed in that war. In that light, the Retreat and the current advertised Return make sense. Damaged as they were following Myth Drannor's fall, the elves knew they had no real shot of holding their lands against an intact Sembia or another horde of humanoids. Now, 600+ years later, the elves' numbers have likely been at least reconstituted, and it's not unreasonable for this younger generation to have the moxy to think they could hold their own as well as their parents/grandparents. It's also worth noting that the Army of Darkness itself was broken in taking Myth Drannor. Only about 10,000 of the humanoid troops lived to see the city sacked, IIRC. Aulmpiter and the majority of his lower planes' companions were slain.
ElGrecoETAC 07-26-05, 06:25 PM	Is this, what's that word Kuje loves, canon? I took you at your word that you needed confirmation when I made my last post. I wouldn't have done so if the sole purpose of your post was to throw a jab at someone else. I hope this wasn't the case here. And those were the troops of Myth Drannor, not the Army of Darkness. I think he was alluding to the fact that the AoD had to have been powerful to take on the elves of MD. Or maybe he was being sarcastic... I don't know.
Kuje31 07-26-05, 06:30 PM	I took you at your word that you needed confirmation when I made my last post. I wouldn't have done so if the sole purpose of your post was to throw a jab at someone else. I hope this wasn't the case here. I think he was alluding to the fact that the AoD had to have been powerful to take on the elves of MD. Or maybe he was being sarcastic... I don't know. Darrian likes to throw jabs at some of us because we disagree with some of his replies. It's nothing new really. And that might be, but most of us realize that the AoD was that strong. :)
GothicDan 07-26-05, 06:40 PM	Darrian, you do realize that all of the infantry of a standard FR nation is comprised usually of Warriors, right? As in, the NPC class? Being a fighter versus a warrior of equivalent level is a big difference. Especially when you're a third level fighter. Furthermore, these were the stats as printed in 2E. That makes a big difference, considering the fact that in 2E soldiers were more 0-level characters, which puts them even more powerful with equivalent 2E armies of the time. Not only that, but I bet that in 3E, an equivalent EXP conversion would put them more at 4th level, as 2E took longer to level/required more EXP. And the same could be said of the Wizards of Myth Drannor, as well. Perhaps especially them, because in 2E Wizards progressed the slowest; to reach twentieth level, they had to have approximately double the EXP of an equivalent level rogue or priest, I believe. So, considering all of those characters, in a consistent 3E conversion, to have even more levels than stated. And, as Greco pointed out, that's the infantry and basic wizardly warriors. Not the elite groups or the private citizens, who were often as powerful as the military commanders.
Darrian 07-26-05, 06:52 PM	I think I am being misunderstood. I was not attacking Kuje, I was asking if the numbers and source were the accepted facts of FR. (canon is the word Kuje uses to show this). Kuje, if I was throwing a jab at you it would be harder and clearer. Perhaps I was wrong to have referenced Kuje. Yes I was pointing out that the Army of Darkness must have been incredibly powerful to have defeated such a great army. Yes Dan, I do realize that the stats were given for 2nd ed. The elven army updated for 3rd ed would be even more powerful. Darrian (Love to see a 3.5 update of Cormanthyr)
Nynshari 07-27-05, 11:01 AM	The magical wards were placed on the city in 694 DR by Ecmane Truesilver (unknown if this person is human or elf) Ecmane Truesilver is called High Mage, but that was a title as he was the leader of city. Okay, a little OT, but I would like to ask: is he any relation to the Truesilvers of Cormyr?
Kuje31 07-27-05, 01:09 PM	Okay, a little OT, but I would like to ask: is he any relation to the Truesilvers of Cormyr? He might be..... or he might not be..... In other words, I don't recall any text saying yea, or nay.
Alac Luin 07-27-05, 10:06 PM	Okay, a little OT, but I would like to ask: is he any relation to the Truesilvers of Cormyr? 555 Year of Dances Perilous Ondathel's High Mages recreate their city once again as Myth Ondath upon raising a mythal. Ecamane Truesilver is born in Suzail at the start of the year, and he and his parents arrive in Myth Drannor by the year's end. That would be most likely a yes. (just found this myself, so I take it he is human)
Krash 07-28-05, 12:58 AM	Yes, he is related and his origins are as interesting as they are currently mysterious. Hopefully one day we'll see more information on this interesting historical figure. -- George Krashos
The Simbul 07-28-05, 03:34 AM	Well Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves wasnt exactly written with the 3E D&D demographics guidelines, nor did NPC classes even exist in the AD&D DMG. Most defenders of any given city are going to be 1st level humanoid warriors. While there may be elite companies, in terms of relevant existing (i.e. not destroyed) cities, most of the citizenry really aught to belong to NPC classes and have their armed forces at least partially follow the normal demographics for a given community. In 2E we had cities of 30,000+ people where the highest level Cleric was 8th level. In 3E that would not only be proposterous, it would be statistically unfair for the city at hand. Regardless of issues of mythals, armed patrols, and the like, Waterdeep has two of the greatest weapons in the history of all civilization; Money and Fame. Adventurers the world over have heard of Waterdeep, and in a time of crisix the Waterdavians have the coin to pay for mercenaries and adventurers from all corners of Faerun. That is why the city would not fall to some surmountable peril
Brom Greenstar 07-28-05, 07:59 AM	But Myth Drannor had the same assets, and yet fell to AoD
Snoring Dragon 07-28-05, 03:24 PM	It is pretty simple to explain, really: evil will win because good is dumb. :P I agree :D
Alac Luin 07-28-05, 06:47 PM	<snip> Waterdeep has two of the greatest weapons in the history of all civilization; Money and Fame. <snip> Make that three, money, fame, and an unusually high number of beautiful women :P
GothicDan 07-28-05, 07:37 PM	*cackle*
Tiernee 07-29-05, 12:24 AM	Ok, this is obviously hypothetical, so... Could the Army of Darkness that destroyed Myth Drannor in the Weeping War do the same thing to Waterdeep today. If the Army was led by the same trio and had roughly the same composition. Would gods interfere? If so, why did they not then? In my opinion the gods are always involved, as long as their priests and followers take part in battles, their spirit is represented. Though I do think if someone tried to pull a Myth Drannor on Waterdeep, there'd be some kind of hell to pay. When I read about the fey'ri I can't help but compare them to terrorists, which just makes my blood cold. I would also think that the people of Faerun now operate under the mindset that if Myth Drannor can fall, anywhere can be a target. Not to say Myth Drannor was easy, but when you think you're invincible, you inevitably let some guard down.
Brom Greenstar 07-29-05, 07:53 AM	I think the key lays in government, the council wasn't capable to handle the threat to the city, that's why Myth Drannor fell.
ElGrecoETAC 07-29-05, 05:17 PM	Well Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves wasnt exactly written with the 3E D&D demographics guidelines, nor did NPC classes even exist in the AD&D DMG. True. Most defenders of any given city are going to be 1st level humanoid warriors. While there may be elite companies, in terms of relevant existing (i.e. not destroyed) cities, most of the citizenry really aught to belong to NPC classes and have their armed forces at least partially follow the normal demographics for a given community. In most communities, this would make sense. There are exceptions, however, and they exist in both 2E and 3E products. Take the City of Shade, for instance. Lords of Darkness specifically states that her army is made up of "approximately three thousand soldiers", with the typical soldier being a "LE human Ftr1/Sor1". Obviously most cities/nations will be able to boast elite military forces whose ranks are made up of "heroic class" troops rather than standard warriors. Given that the soldiers of Shade are standard human Shadovar with at least 2 levels (to include both regimented Fighter training and magical training), I have no issues with the average Akh'Vaern infantryman being stated as having 3+ levels of Fighter. After all, one only has to look at Elves of Evermeet to see that the Akh'Vaern are not representative of all Tel'Quessir forces. In 2E we had cities of 30,000+ people where the highest level Cleric was 8th level. In 3E that would not only be proposterous, it would be statistically unfair for the city at hand. In 2E you had a lot of exceptions to the rule. You had small cities with level 20+ wizards (I'm not even counting Shadowdale in this mix), Elturel with her 2,000 (6th level Fighters!!!) Hellriders, etc., etc. Regardless of issues of mythals, armed patrols, and the like, Waterdeep has two of the greatest weapons in the history of all civilization; Money and Fame. Adventurers the world over have heard of Waterdeep, and in a time of crisix the Waterdavians have the coin to pay for mercenaries and adventurers from all corners of Faerun. That's a fair point, I guess. On the other hand, it's all about timing. If the AoD managed to find a way to get to Waterdeep exceptionally (read: magic) quickly, I can't see mercs being too interested. One more thing to remember: Baldur's Gate aside, what is Waterdeep's relationship with the lands most of the nearby mercenaries come from?
Darrian 07-29-05, 06:13 PM	So I just got done reading about the mythal that protects silverymoon and I gotta say, if Myth Drannors mythal was half as powerful as Silverymoons, then damn! The army of Darkness must have had some serious mojo to have dealt with it. (Silverymoons mythal LEoF pg. 50) Darrian (I gotta get me a mythal for my house)
GothicDan 07-29-05, 06:30 PM	I would daresay that the Mythal of Myth Drannor was as powerful, if not moreso. We never even, in 2E, saw all of its dozens of powers fully detailed. The thing is, Myth Drannor's mythal was corrupted by the riddling of portals and gates, and the presence of so many evil Outsiders.
Kessalin Talira 07-29-05, 06:34 PM	It was a good one, that's for sure. If you're interested, I took the information on Myth Drannor's Mythal and converted it to an epic spell. In my opinion it's pretty accurate to the 2E source. I'll post it if you want, but it's pretty extensive so I figured I'd ask first. It comes in at about two pages in Word with 10 pt. Arial. The only way the Army of Darkness was really able to deal with Myth Drannor's Mythal was when several thousand fiends all contacted it at essentially the same time, and basically overloaded it. After that, it started failing. The continued presence of the fiends inside the mythal sped the rate of corruption of the powers, until it became what it is in the present-day Realms. Regarding the listing of the powers of the Mythal, Cormanthyr, Empire of Elves has the most complete listing I remember seeing in 2E, and that's what I based my epic spell on.
Fabius Maximus 07-29-05, 06:45 PM	Did anyone consider the surroundig landscape of the two cities? Myth Drannor lies in the middle of a forest. A large army has to move very slow if traversing woods. And it is perfect terrain for guerilla warfare from the side of the drannorian army. It keeps casualties low. Waterdeep lies in mostly open terrain. That means the Army of Darkness could throw all it's strength at it all at once. The city wouldn't stand a chance against the sheer numbers af the Army.
Alac Luin 07-29-05, 08:53 PM	Did anyone consider the surroundig landscape of the two cities? Myth Drannor lies in the middle of a forest. A large army has to move very slow if traversing woods. And it is perfect terrain for guerilla warfare from the side of the drannorian army. It keeps casualties low. Waterdeep lies in mostly open terrain. That means the Army of Darkness could throw all it's strength at it all at once. The city wouldn't stand a chance against the sheer numbers af the Army. Well, you can also take into account that Waterdeep has walls, while Myth Drannor does/did not. An attacking army has a much higher chance of taking vast casualties breaching the wall.
Fabius Maximus 07-30-05, 12:32 PM	Well, you can also take into account that Waterdeep has walls, while Myth Drannor does/did not. An attacking army has a much higher chance of taking vast casualties breaching the wall. With their numbers, that doesn't matter. Add siege engines and magic to that, and you take the city in a few days. Imagine this vast horde of humanoids and devils swarming against the city walls. The defenders grow weary, but the Army keeps attacking and attacking. Even those powerful mages could not do anything against it. Also remember, the goal of the Army was not to conquer but to destroy. Aulmpiter and friends didn't care how much of their soldiers died. They could always summon more.