Attn: Mr. Rich Baker -- Player's Guide to the Forgotten Realms suggestions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Attn: Mr. Rich Baker -- Player's Guide to the Forgotten Realms suggestions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Purple Dragon Knight
08-09-03, 02:44 AM Warning: THIS IS A THREAD MEANT FOR SUGGESTIONS FOR THE UPCOMING PGTTFR PRODUCT. THIS IS NOT A FORUM FOR COMPLAINTS AND WHINING. THANK YOU! PDK

Mr. Baker, members of the FR design team, fellow FR enthusiasts: welcome!

I thought of opening this thread as a medium meant to convey our hopes in regards to the upcoming PGttFR product. Whether they are our wishes in regards to the improvement of some classes, PrCs, feats, or our suggestions in regards to what changes are necessary to bring FR into the 3.5 rules, every comment is welcome. Please adopt a respectful tone, and remember that this is meant to potentially help the designers know what we’d like changed, not to tell them what to do.

Thank you. Here’s my first wish... :angel:

Bladesinger class

With a fighter-like BAB progression, good Ref and Will saves, and a dodge bonus equal to their Int bonus, the bladesingers are fearsome to say the least. The dodge bonus is somewhat required however, considering that bladesingers can only fight in light armor if they want to retain the spellcasting and bladesong abilities. The lower d8 (compared to the d10 for fighters) balances out the fact that bladesingers get a few spells.

However, here is where I think things go wrong a little…

Considering that the requirements include two wizard feats (Combat Casting and Still Spell), and furthermore demand for one level of wizard, bard or sorcerer (1st-level arcane spells), the bladesinger spell list becomes slightly meaningless, and in my opinion spreads the bladesinger a little too thin in terms of abilities. This is compounded by the requirement of 3 ranks in Tumble and Perform, which would favor bard as a choice for the class that brings their 1st-level arcane spells requirement (bard offers both skills as class skill).

We all know, however, that the bladesinger was originally a fighter/wizard combo, and I think the class should be revamped in order to recapture this concept. In order to achieve this, I suggest the following changes to the class:

A) Perform requirement

- Perform: [Dance] 3 ranks;
- Remove Perform: [Sing] (bladesingers do not actually sing: it is their blades that sing, a feature more related to a combination of Perform: Dance and Tumble).
- Remove the Perform: [any other] requirement.

--> These changes to the Perform requirement would also bring the class in line with the 3.5 rules for Perform. All a bladesinger really needs is Perform [Dance], and 3 ranks of it taken as cross-class would mean a minimum of 3 character levels to meet it (for 6 skill points total). As for the other requirements (Concentration 4 ranks, Tumble 3 ranks), I would leave them as they are. This means that a fighter/wizard would meet the Concentration requirement with at least one level of wizard, but still sacrifice 6 skill points cross-class for Tumble. The Perform: [Dance] and Tumble sacrifice, coupled with the Combat Casting, Dodge, Expertise, Still Spell and Weapon Focus requirements would permit the following:

B) Spell progression

I suggest that the combination of all requirements imposed to the bladesinger warrant a spell progression that improves on any previous wizard caster level (or bard, or sorcerer, depending of the bladesinger’s choice) at a rate of +1 existing caster level per two bladesinger levels. Note that the requirement for Still Spell would favor wizards here, as wizards can get it for free at 5th level – this is certainly in keeping with the original fighter/wizard concept of a bladesinger. Such a progression would be easier to keep track than a separate spell list, and would give an additional 5 caster level over the complete 10-level bladesinger class progression (i.e. a Ftr5/Wiz5/Bladesinger10 would cast as a Wiz10 – not too powerful, not too shabby). Such a level of spellcasting would offer a decent chance for bladesingers to hold their own at higher levels (when taking a full round action, the Song of Celerity ability allows for the casting of a spell as a free action --> a Wiz 10 casting level with automatic quickens is roughly equivalent to a Wiz 15 casting level in my opinion: in other words, Ftr5/Wiz5/Bladesinger10 with an effective Wiz10 casting ability could hold his/her own against a Ftr5/Wiz15).

However, the current bladesinger spell list is paltry in my opinion, and renders previous levels in arcane spellcasting classes rather moot. If a +1 level of existing spellcasting class per two levels of bladesinger progression is adopted, perhaps the minimum spellcasting requirement for the class should be upped to: Ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells (i.e. minimum Wiz3, Brd4, Sor4 à again wizards are favored, keeping with the spirit of the original concept).

Ok… that is it for me… (rant off! ;) )

Next suggestion please! J
Dargoth
08-09-03, 03:59 AM I got the impression that PGFR was "Finished"
Purple Dragon Knight
08-09-03, 04:39 AM Originally posted by Dargoth
I got the impression that PGFR was "Finished" If so, a big "whoopsie"... :eek: ...and make this thread a suggestion for web enhancements instead... :P

However, I don't think it's due out for a while still, so maybe our suggestions could still make it before it's printed (assuming those suggestions are deemed good enough to be included).

I say keep suggesting anyway: it's better late than never. The worst that can happen is that none of these suggestions would make it in time. However, if any of those suggestions make it, it would then be a good thing IMHO.

As far as the bladesinger issue is concerned, I'd be fine if this would make it in an online supplement! (or at least get a designer who roams these board tell us why or why not such a suggestion would be balanced or not) All I want to know, really, is if my suggested bladesinger would be considered a "balanced" PrC. As far as I can tell, it seems so... but maybe the perspective of a "pro" could give me more insight...
Dargoth
08-09-03, 05:44 AM Things I want in the PGFR or in a web enhancement

Write ups for All the Paladins and Monk orders like those in the FRC. The Write ups should also have the locations for the Monastaries and Chapter houses

I also want more spells from F&A, P&P and DhD converted to 3ed

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Purple Dragon Knight 08-09-03, 02:44 AM	Warning: THIS IS A THREAD MEANT FOR SUGGESTIONS FOR THE UPCOMING PGTTFR PRODUCT. THIS IS NOT A FORUM FOR COMPLAINTS AND WHINING. THANK YOU! PDK Mr. Baker, members of the FR design team, fellow FR enthusiasts: welcome! I thought of opening this thread as a medium meant to convey our hopes in regards to the upcoming PGttFR product. Whether they are our wishes in regards to the improvement of some classes, PrCs, feats, or our suggestions in regards to what changes are necessary to bring FR into the 3.5 rules, every comment is welcome. Please adopt a respectful tone, and remember that this is meant to potentially help the designers know what we’d like changed, not to tell them what to do. Thank you. Here’s my first wish... :angel: Bladesinger class With a fighter-like BAB progression, good Ref and Will saves, and a dodge bonus equal to their Int bonus, the bladesingers are fearsome to say the least. The dodge bonus is somewhat required however, considering that bladesingers can only fight in light armor if they want to retain the spellcasting and bladesong abilities. The lower d8 (compared to the d10 for fighters) balances out the fact that bladesingers get a few spells. However, here is where I think things go wrong a little… Considering that the requirements include two wizard feats (Combat Casting and Still Spell), and furthermore demand for one level of wizard, bard or sorcerer (1st-level arcane spells), the bladesinger spell list becomes slightly meaningless, and in my opinion spreads the bladesinger a little too thin in terms of abilities. This is compounded by the requirement of 3 ranks in Tumble and Perform, which would favor bard as a choice for the class that brings their 1st-level arcane spells requirement (bard offers both skills as class skill). We all know, however, that the bladesinger was originally a fighter/wizard combo, and I think the class should be revamped in order to recapture this concept. In order to achieve this, I suggest the following changes to the class: A) Perform requirement - Perform: [Dance] 3 ranks; - Remove Perform: [Sing] (bladesingers do not actually sing: it is their blades that sing, a feature more related to a combination of Perform: Dance and Tumble). - Remove the Perform: [any other] requirement. --> These changes to the Perform requirement would also bring the class in line with the 3.5 rules for Perform. All a bladesinger really needs is Perform [Dance], and 3 ranks of it taken as cross-class would mean a minimum of 3 character levels to meet it (for 6 skill points total). As for the other requirements (Concentration 4 ranks, Tumble 3 ranks), I would leave them as they are. This means that a fighter/wizard would meet the Concentration requirement with at least one level of wizard, but still sacrifice 6 skill points cross-class for Tumble. The Perform: [Dance] and Tumble sacrifice, coupled with the Combat Casting, Dodge, Expertise, Still Spell and Weapon Focus requirements would permit the following: B) Spell progression I suggest that the combination of all requirements imposed to the bladesinger warrant a spell progression that improves on any previous wizard caster level (or bard, or sorcerer, depending of the bladesinger’s choice) at a rate of +1 existing caster level per two bladesinger levels. Note that the requirement for Still Spell would favor wizards here, as wizards can get it for free at 5th level – this is certainly in keeping with the original fighter/wizard concept of a bladesinger. Such a progression would be easier to keep track than a separate spell list, and would give an additional 5 caster level over the complete 10-level bladesinger class progression (i.e. a Ftr5/Wiz5/Bladesinger10 would cast as a Wiz10 – not too powerful, not too shabby). Such a level of spellcasting would offer a decent chance for bladesingers to hold their own at higher levels (when taking a full round action, the Song of Celerity ability allows for the casting of a spell as a free action --> a Wiz 10 casting level with automatic quickens is roughly equivalent to a Wiz 15 casting level in my opinion: in other words, Ftr5/Wiz5/Bladesinger10 with an effective Wiz10 casting ability could hold his/her own against a Ftr5/Wiz15). However, the current bladesinger spell list is paltry in my opinion, and renders previous levels in arcane spellcasting classes rather moot. If a +1 level of existing spellcasting class per two levels of bladesinger progression is adopted, perhaps the minimum spellcasting requirement for the class should be upped to: Ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells (i.e. minimum Wiz3, Brd4, Sor4 à again wizards are favored, keeping with the spirit of the original concept). Ok… that is it for me… (rant off! ;) ) Next suggestion please! J
Dargoth 08-09-03, 03:59 AM	I got the impression that PGFR was "Finished"
Purple Dragon Knight 08-09-03, 04:39 AM	Originally posted by Dargoth I got the impression that PGFR was "Finished" If so, a big "whoopsie"... :eek: ...and make this thread a suggestion for web enhancements instead... :P However, I don't think it's due out for a while still, so maybe our suggestions could still make it before it's printed (assuming those suggestions are deemed good enough to be included). I say keep suggesting anyway: it's better late than never. The worst that can happen is that none of these suggestions would make it in time. However, if any of those suggestions make it, it would then be a good thing IMHO. As far as the bladesinger issue is concerned, I'd be fine if this would make it in an online supplement! (or at least get a designer who roams these board tell us why or why not such a suggestion would be balanced or not) All I want to know, really, is if my suggested bladesinger would be considered a "balanced" PrC. As far as I can tell, it seems so... but maybe the perspective of a "pro" could give me more insight...
Dargoth 08-09-03, 05:44 AM	Things I want in the PGFR or in a web enhancement Write ups for All the Paladins and Monk orders like those in the FRC. The Write ups should also have the locations for the Monastaries and Chapter houses I also want more spells from F&A, P&P and DhD converted to 3ed