Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eladrinstar 07-07-07, 05:54 PM	Does anyone else completely ignore these? I do, because I just couldn't accept the version of those games as presented in the novels. In my campaigns, it is open-ended as to what happpened to CHARNAME, their gender, and their race. However other characters from that game make appearances. In various campaigns I've DMed, the PC's have; met Edwin(a) in a bar, been saved by Aerie and Minsc, saw Jaheira in a druid circle, fought Viconia's cult, a rogue once joined Imoen's thieve guild, and one even slept with Safana.
GhoX 07-08-07, 12:07 AM	They suck... the unofficial ones are pretty good though~
Zandilar 07-08-07, 08:29 PM	Heya, As distasteful as it is, the novels are considered canon. The only advantage is that nothing changes in the Realms - no new gods, no old gods returning, nothing. Which makes them easy to ignore them, and therefore isn't all that hard to incorporate your own "version". @GohX - there's plenty of good "fan" versions floating around if you know where to look. I don't know what these unofficial ones you're talking about are. :) Also, people are still modding the Infinity Engine games to this day... I don't know if anyone's attempted to translate the original series into Aurora though (that's the NWN engine).
Eladrinstar 07-08-07, 08:54 PM	The unofficial ones weren't very good either. It was too sparse on detail. The fights, even some major ones, lasted paragraphs each. Some were single sentences. I am thinking of writing my own, it will be close to the games, but not be reliant on them for dialogue and everything. The unofficial ones can be found at a website called "Sorcerer's Place", I think that is what it is called.
DrowBattlemind 07-08-07, 10:31 PM	Sadly, I've never been able to play the PC games. Seems that every one of them had micro-bubbles in the discs; after the third return to Wal-Mart, I gave up. I've never been able to get out of the blasted monastery keep without the disc flaw causing the game to crash. The Playstation games (B.G.: Dark Alliance 1 & 2) were fun, however, and I wish they'd novelized them. :allalone:
Dark Wizard 07-08-07, 11:47 PM	Get an older version on Ebay. Perhaps the new batch are just faulty. Or there's something incompatible with your computer and the discs. Are you sure Walmart isn't just exchanging the same two defective game boxes with you?
Aegis_Chiron 07-09-07, 03:05 AM	As distasteful as it is, the novels are considered canon You sure about that? I was always under the assumption that the Baldur's Gate novels, the Pools of Radiance novels and the Double Diamond nevellas were not cannon. Because the first two series were based on computer games, and the DD because... not sure why excatly. I'm still waiting for the first book to arrive before reading them. If Baldur's Gate is cannon, then I have it writing that Cyric becoming a god was a mistake (Chapter 21 of Throne of Bhaal).
Old Sage 07-09-07, 04:06 AM	The Baldur's Gate novels are canon -- so says WotC and the authors of the novels. And, of course, the games cannot be completely considered FR canon, as the author, Drew Karpyshyn says, "because of their multiple endings, the BG games can't be considered 'official' in the FR world." Only elements from the games that have been published in official FR sources are considered part of canon Realmslore. And it would would appear WotC assume some parts of the "Double Diamond" books are considered canon [or at least will be], given the reference in the 'Doppelganger' entry of Monsters of Faerűn. WotC tell us that when the timeline reaches 1377 DR, some elements from these books will become canon.
Agudo Archmage 07-09-07, 04:37 AM	Ya many many ...o so many people didnt like BD books In fact from my understanding at least, the writer of the first book, was replaced by someone else for the last book Not sure why, but it may have been the bad press Sadly the books, just ignored the well thought out personalities of the NPC’s from the game It was like reading an alien version of Baldur’s Gate
Aegis_Chiron 07-10-07, 02:57 AM	In fact from my understanding at least, the writer of the first book, was replaced by someone else for the last book Have you read the first two BG books? They were way too choppy. I think that Philip Athans is a great editor, but someone made some big mistakes with those books. Yet Drew wrote a much smoother finale and stayed with roughly the same word count.
Agudo Archmage 07-10-07, 08:14 PM	Aegis_Chiron Have you read the first two BG books? They were way too choppy. I think that Philip Athans is a great editor, but someone made some big mistakes with those books. Yet Drew wrote a much smoother finale and stayed with roughly the same word count. Heheh...o dear yes I did :( Like I said, it was like reading an alien world, so far from the rich personalities of the NPC's Just so completely different, from who they were In the game It would be like taking El and Driz, then making them into evil wimpy people Ya, I know, some say ya cant write the whole BD/Game story to a book But..... they could have stayed true, to the NPC Chars deep and very well thought out personalities Its what sets BD apart from other PC games….the in-depth characteristics for each NPC Sadly it was just a wasted opportunity, to create possibly one of the best books ever for FR :cool: So many loyal fans of FR and BD!
hawkinsthedm 07-11-07, 12:26 PM	Does anyone else completely ignore these? I do, because I just couldn't accept the version of those games as presented in the novels. In my campaigns, it is open-ended as to what happpened to CHARNAME, their gender, and their race. However other characters from that game make appearances. In various campaigns I've DMed, the PC's have; met Edwin(a) in a bar, been saved by Aerie and Minsc, saw Jaheira in a druid circle, fought Viconia's cult, a rogue once joined Imoen's thieve guild, and one even slept with Safana. I loved the games, they were fun. I read the first novel and stopped after it because the writing was not very impressive. I like to think of myself as a connoisseur of fantasy novels, and these were just not up to par. I like your open-ended take on it though. I wouldn't mind a source book for the Sword Coast. Maybe if the Grand History of the Realms sells well (I'll do my part and grab a copy ;)), we will get more books detailing the rest of the Faerun--and maybe, someday, the rest Toril too :tantrum:!
Yaeri 07-12-07, 09:07 AM	I've played the Baldur's gate games all the way to the end, and I'm wondering... At the end of throne of Bhaal your character becomes a deity (or perhaps you had the option to reject deityhood); what happens to the main character at the end of the novels?
Zanan 07-12-07, 09:50 AM	BTW ... I am asking for some minor spoilers so people can use the [ hide ] [ / hide ] option if necessary. I only read BG I and BG II, never got Throne of Bhaal. Whom of the games' NPCs actually made it through "officially" in the end, i.e. Imoen, Jaheira et al? Cheers!
Bluenose 07-13-07, 04:26 AM	BTW ... I am asking for some minor spoilers so people can use the [ hide ] [ / hide ] option if necessary. I only read BG I and BG II, never got Throne of Bhaal. Whom of the games' NPCs actually made it through "officially" in the end, i.e. Imoen, Jaheira et al? Cheers! Imoen and Jaheira both died. I believe the only survivor from the novel cast was Abdel. I've played the Baldur's gate games all the way to the end, and I'm wondering... At the end of throne of Bhaal your character becomes a deity (or perhaps you had the option to reject deityhood); what happens to the main character at the end of the novels? Abdel rejected godhood and went back to wandering Faerun.
MerrikCale 07-13-07, 11:18 PM	Bluenose's "beliefs" are accurate
Zanan 07-14-07, 07:47 AM	Bluenose's "beliefs" are accurate What a shame! Not Bluenose's belief that is, but the "facts" ...
MerrikCale 07-14-07, 09:35 AM	What a shame! Not Bluenose's belief that is, but the "facts" ... not really
Zanan 07-14-07, 09:55 AM	While we are at it, I can only remember Khalid, Imoen and Jaheria making an appearence. Did any of the other NPCs appeared in Throne of Bhaal?
hawkinsthedm 07-14-07, 01:20 PM	There are alternate versions "unofficially" written by Rhys Hess at Sorcerer's Place. I have not read them yet. There is one for BG1 & ToSC; and then he wrote both an evil and a good version for BG2 & ToB. Just do a Google search for "Sorcerer's Place" and look through the "Walkthroughs and Guides" section for each game.
Zacharov 07-14-07, 06:33 PM	Ugh! I read the BG 2 book and I didn't like much of it.. The lesbian theme was kind of funny tho'... :)
Zandilar 07-14-07, 07:45 PM	Heya, Ugh! I read the BG 2 book and I didn't like much of it.. The lesbian theme was kind of funny tho'... :) Err so we lesbians are funny now, are we? Someone forgot to send me a memo. :P Why did you find it "funny", just out of interest? I actually liked it, because it wasn't over done, and while it suffered from the "evil lesbian" (refering to Phaere here) cliche, it provided an interesting point of development from Imoen, and gave a bit of depth to Phaere that could otherwise have been lacking. Shame it ended in the cliche of dead lesbian. *sigh* Thanks for nothing Philip and Drew!! *shakes her fist*
MerrikCale 07-14-07, 08:06 PM	Heya, Err so we lesbians are funny now, are we? Someone forgot to send me a memo. :P depends on the lesbian.
DrowBattlemind 07-14-07, 08:23 PM	I never understood anti-lesbian sentiments. I like and respect lesbians. They want the same thing in life that I do. That really cute girl next door. ;)
MerrikCale 07-14-07, 11:16 PM	I never understood anti-lesbian sentiments. I like and respect lesbians. They want the same thing in life that I do. That really cute girl next door. ;) 'course they got a better shot;)
Diffan 07-15-07, 01:19 AM	I never understood anti-lesbian sentiments. I like and respect lesbians. They want the same thing in life that I do. That really cute girl next door. ;) :ayyyy!: Anyways, I've read and played BG I & BG II and I liked the 2nd better. I don't really recall Edwin, Safana, or Aerie making an appearance unless they were in the last book. Minsc was in a bar for a few pages in the second book but didn't do anything special. Xan was just down right wrong on so many levels it wasn't funny. All in all, the game was far superior and if any PC's that were in the game aren't in the book series, I don't see why you can't use them in your Realms. What I want to know is Duke Eltan dead, because in the FRCS he's still considered the ruler or main face of Baldur's Gate.
Zacharov 07-15-07, 09:26 AM	Heya, Err so we lesbians are funny now, are we? Someone forgot to send me a memo. :P Why did you find it "funny", just out of interest? I actually liked it, because it wasn't over done, and while it suffered from the "evil lesbian" (refering to Phaere here) cliche, it provided an interesting point of development from Imoen, and gave a bit of depth to Phaere that could otherwise have been lacking. Shame it ended in the cliche of dead lesbian. *sigh* Thanks for nothing Philip and Drew!! *shakes her fist* HAHA! :D I apologize if I made it sound like an insult :) I definitely have nothing against LGBT individuals, the rather contrary :) I have to admit that I was positively surprised by the lesbian theme in the book. It was the first time I'd read any fantasy literature involving anything concerning LGBT issues, so I thought it was a very positive thing.. and with the word "funny" I meant "funny" as in "a positive situation that resulted in me smiling and being in a good mood" :D haha... this suddenly turned quite complicated, didn't it?
Iakhovas 07-15-07, 09:42 AM	Duke Eltan and his lieutenant Scar were both slain during the events of the Bhaalspawn Conflict in the Year of the Banner (1368 DR). Power of Faerűn tells us they were resurrected soon after, and are still alive as of 1374 DR. What I want to know is Duke Eltan dead, because in the FRCS he's still considered the ruler or main face of Baldur's Gate.
Diffan 07-15-07, 12:02 PM	Ah, I see. Thanks for clearing that up. My PC's will probably be in Baldur's Gate soon and I didn't know what to do about Eltan. Good to know he's alive and well.
hawkinsthedm 07-15-07, 12:28 PM	I can't wait until the Grand History of the Realms comes out in September. It is supposed to clear up all sorts of confusion as to what is official cannon history and what is not. And yes Brian, I know your name is right next to Ed's on the cover :D.
Zandilar 07-15-07, 08:31 PM	Heya, HAHA! :D I apologize if I made it sound like an insult :) I definitely have nothing against LGBT individuals, the rather contrary :) I have to admit that I was positively surprised by the lesbian theme in the book. It was the first time I'd read any fantasy literature involving anything concerning LGBT issues, so I thought it was a very positive thing.. and with the word "funny" I meant "funny" as in "a positive situation that resulted in me smiling and being in a good mood" :D haha... this suddenly turned quite complicated, didn't it? Yes, I do see what you mean. :) It was a pleasant surprise for me also, but I really hated how things ended for poor Imoen (my favorite BG NPC, I have to say). LGBT people do pop up from time to time in fantasy literature, some of it even mainstream. In the mainstream you're more likely to come across gay male supporting characters (and sometimes even main characters, such as in the Last Herald Mage series by Mercedes Lackey). From indy publishers, though, you're probably more likely to come across lesbians (since we seem to have a niche all to ourselves, that really took off after Xena (but was probably in existence before then)). But that's just my experience of the industry as a reader, I'm not really an expert. :)
Diffan 07-16-07, 07:45 AM	yea, from what I'm told the book series I'm reading now, The Wheel of Time, mentions or has lesbians in it.
Zacharov 07-16-07, 07:48 AM	yea, from what I'm told the book series I'm reading now, The Wheel of Time, mentions or has lesbians in it. oh yeah that's right :D I've read almost all of em... and there are some quite different views on sexuality and love in that series :)
Diffan 07-16-07, 08:24 AM	oh yeah that's right :D I've read almost all of em... and there are some quite different views on sexuality and love in that series :) Well, I'm only on book 5, so I really haven't read into any of that yet. But it's a great read, espically when I have 4 to 5 hours at work to do nothing but read.
hawkinsthedm 07-16-07, 11:28 AM	Well, I'm only on book 5, so I really haven't read into any of that yet. But it's a great read, espically when I have 4 to 5 hours at work to do nothing but read. Books 8 and 10 were great disappointments; after book 10 I decided not to read any more until he finishes the series. Jordan's problem is that he breaks the plot into too many subplots, and then attempts to cover too little of each plot in each book. I prefer the Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind, or the Shannara novels by Terry Brooks.
Diffan 07-16-07, 04:35 PM	Books 8 and 10 were great disappointments; after book 10 I decided not to read any more until he finishes the series. Jordan's problem is that he breaks the plot into too many subplots, and then attempts to cover too little of each plot in each book. I prefer the Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind, or the Shannara novels by Terry Brooks. Yea, I've heard from various people that after book 5, it gets more boring and less action, but I've always been the kind of reader that reads a series through. I do have the Shannara novels, but have yet to read into them.
hawkinsthedm 07-16-07, 05:47 PM	As I said, I will attempt to finish reading the series when Jordan finishes writing it. And I tend to binge series at a time. There is only so much crappy coverage of plot and lack of action that I can take with no end in sight.
Ulicus 07-16-07, 11:01 PM	Duke Eltan and his lieutenant Scar were both slain during the events of the Bhaalspawn Conflict in the Year of the Banner (1368 DR). Power of Faerűn tells us they were resurrected soon after, and are still alive as of 1374 DR. Which, of course, creates a few new problems. If the novels weren't canon, then aside from it being a year early, there would not be a huge problem with this.... However, in Scar's case at least, it's made explicitly clear in the novel that he is beyond resurrection: “This city is blessed with a number of fine temples,” Etlan said, “and cursed with a number more, I suppose. When word of Scar’s death came to me I had him brought to the High House of Wonders in hopes that my good friend Thalamond might be able to breathe life back tino the old war dog’s lungs.” … “They couldn’t do it I’m afraid,” Eltan said, “His soul had fled, or … well, whatever.” If it was as easy as a couple of resurrection spells to reconcile the novel with the FRCS, I'd have been able to think of it! :) Though maybe there's some wriggle room with the "or... well, whatever". I'm still at a loss as to why WotC came up with any official stance on the BG games/novels at all. Beyond stating that "obviously, the main character did not become a god and characters still alive in the FRCS did not die", why couldn't they have let the rest be "up to us"? Ah well.
MarkusTay63 07-16-07, 11:12 PM	I was told he is trying to wrap up everything in the next book because he has a terminal illness. That sux, first off because of his illness, and second, because there is some 20-30 plots currently and it would take at least half that many books to wrap them all up and do it right. I wished he would have just finished up a few subplots before developing more in each book. Its gotten to the point where I had no idea who half the people were that I was reading about in the last novel. Sometimes he skips an entire book before getting back to a stroyline (like the one with Matrim {Mat} Cauthon and the Empress). By the time you get back to a subplot, you don't even remember what it is about. But I'll finish it, because otherwise I wasted my time with the other 11 books. :rolleyes:
Faraer 07-16-07, 11:14 PM	They did leave it up to us as long as they could; the canonicity of the Baldur's Gate games was ambiguous until our questions about it were answered. If there's going to be a consistent, ongoing timeline, decisions have to be made about what's in it. The novel could have been wrong on that count, or the narrator misreported, or Eltan was dissembling or misunderstood or was misinformed, or that priest or another was later successful after the first failure, or . . . Latterday Realmslore is full of these fixes: better a little creative interpretation, even kludging, than have to either exempt the whole novel from canon or retcon Scar dead based on that one point.
DrowBattlemind 07-17-07, 01:16 AM	Heya, Yes, I do see what you mean. :) It was a pleasant surprise for me also, but I really hated how things ended for poor Imoen (my favorite BG NPC, I have to say). LGBT people do pop up from time to time in fantasy literature, some of it even mainstream. In the mainstream you're more likely to come across gay male supporting characters (and sometimes even main characters, such as in the Last Herald Mage series by Mercedes Lackey). From indy publishers, though, you're probably more likely to come across lesbians (since we seem to have a niche all to ourselves, that really took off after Xena (but was probably in existence before then)). But that's just my experience of the industry as a reader, I'm not really an expert. :) OOOOH, don't forget S.M. Stirling's co-written Fifth Millenium novels about Megan Whitlock and her barbarian lover, Shkai'ra. The first one I read was the Cage, with Shirley Meier, and there's also Saber and Shadow, and many others... Quote: The series continues with Shadow's Daughter by Shirley Meier, Shadow's Son by Stirling, Meier, and Karen Wehrstein, Lion's Heart and Lion's Soul, both by Wehrstein. (end quote) Megan is said to be a mage (she's actually a psion, but there seems no difference in thier world), whilst Shkai'ra is a barbarian swordswoman.
Diffan 07-17-07, 06:01 AM	I was told he is trying to wrap up everything in the next book because he has a terminal illness. I hope the best for Robert Jordan and his health. That sux, first off because of his illness, and second, because there is some 20-30 plots currently and it would take at least half that many books to wrap them all up and do it right. I wished he would have just finished up a few subplots before developing more in each book. Its gotten to the point where I had no idea who half the people were that I was reading about in the last novel. Sometimes he skips an entire book before getting back to a stroyline (like the one with Matrim {Mat} Cauthon and the Empress). By the time you get back to a subplot, you don't even remember what it is about. But I'll finish it, because otherwise I wasted my time with the other 11 books. :rolleyes: I've only been about half way through the series, but Perrin isn't even in the 5th book (which by the way is my Favorite character) and I hope to see more of him in the series. As for plots and sub-plots, I've read enough Drow books to go beyond that and then more without batting an eye, so no worries there. I've been told by some that the last book is going to be twice as big as his usual books, so say around 1800 to 1900 pages?
Ulicus 07-17-07, 08:27 AM	They did leave it up to us as long as they could; the canonicity of the Baldur's Gate games was ambiguous until our questions about it were answered. If there's going to be a consistent, ongoing timeline, decisions have to be made about what's in it. True enough... That said, Drew Karpyshyn is quoted as saying that the events of the games can't be considered canon because of their branching storylines, yet - in Star Wars - the KotOR video games are considered canon and the only thing that has been confirmed are alignments and genders for the main characters. I'd have preferred a similar situation here, but you wouldn't have needed to go that far. All we'd need to know, ultimately, is that "the main character did not become a god". I can see why that isn't the situation however. There were novels written after all and I'm sure flat out disregarding them would be galling for both Athans and Karpyshyn. Not to mention pretty rude. The novel could have been wrong on that count, or the narrator misreported, or Eltan was dissembling or misunderstood or was misinformed, or that priest or another was later successful after the first failure, or . . . Latterday Realmslore is full of these fixes: better a little creative interpretation, even kludging, than have to either exempt the whole novel from canon or retcon Scar dead based on that one point. Turns out that it's two points, since later on the novel its stated that it was impossible to raise Eltan as well... ;) Heh. Ultimately though, despite my nitpicks, I agree with what you're saying. So, what I want to know, is if Athans' references to Eltan and Scar's inability to be raised can be ignored/kludged - why can't his "Year of the Banner" reference be similarly ignored and become a reference to the Year of the Gauntlet? That way both games and novels could be easily reconciled insofar as source books are concerned (since they don't exactly go into huge details on everything that went down) and it would remain in the hands of the DM as to what the Iron Throne plot really entailed. Ah, whatever, it's not really important :) In my campaign BG1 is canon, SOA and TOB are not entirely canon (since neither paid much heed to Realmslore) and everything's peachy. It's just that I'm usually the sort to keep everything consistant with the official stuff, so I much preferred the "ambigious" stance that had previously been adopted... and I'm not a fan of the events being set a year too early. P.S. Since we're on the subject of the novels, is there anywhere I could get a hold of Abdel, Jaheria and Sarevok's ADnD stats? I know they appeared in Dragon (though actually, Sarevok's might not have) but I've never been able to get a hold of the issue. Is there any online source?