Post/Author/DateTime	Post
John_Lee 01-30-06, 09:31 PM	I was playing a Fire Genasi Cleric of Talos with about 8 other people. Unfortunatley i learned the hard way why party members shouldn't allow themselves to be seperated. Espesially when your character has a short temper. My character returned to the town he was previously living in to check up on his smuggling organization. Since he pretty much ran the city as far as evil is concerned he thought it would be a good idea to head back and make sure everything was still running smoothly. My character headed back to his home (also where he ran his business out of) to find other people occupying his home. He went to speak with the people who had sold him the home and found out that they resold his home to some mage. Unfortunatley for those people my character ended thier pathetic existence. He then headed off to rid his home of the infidel mage. The mage was a hell of a lot more powerful than my character was and i was banished to the elemental plane of fire. Currently that campagin is been put on hold (not because of what happened to my character, but for other reasons.) Rather than create a new character i would like to find some way of having my character return. The DM has told me it will be possible to bring my character back but i'll have to find a way. My character is a Level 6 Cleric and i havent been able to find anything in any books or forums on how a character could return from another plane. (At least not at 6th lvl) If anyone has any ideas on how one could travel back to Ferun i would apreciate it. All i could think of at this point is to try and have my character give up all his possesions to a mage (if there are such things on that plane) and beg to be sent back.
createvmind 01-30-06, 10:57 PM	Post this in DM help or a similar forum.
Kes Alanadel 01-30-06, 11:42 PM	Fire Genasi are native, which means that a Banishment spell won't send them anywhere, if that is the spell that was used on you.
Imruphel 01-31-06, 08:18 AM	A plane shift spell on a scroll should be sufficient to send you back to your home plane. The real question is: will your DM let you return?
Mr.Sinister 02-03-06, 08:45 PM	Or maybe try and find an Efreeti willing to send you back with his plane shift ability in exchange for some service, or try to find your way to the City of Brass on that plane (where many of the Efreeti live, and surely Prime material plane clerics or mages, maybe a cleric of Kossuth?).
The Simbul 02-03-06, 09:03 PM	Your DM should give you a get out of jail free card, and have you stumble accross an easy way back to the prime material plane within the first 5 minutes of the next campaign, or simply have it be a background event that takes place before the next gaming session, since they majorly goofed by not understanding the rules for Banishment, Outsiders, Native Outsiders, and home planes. Absolutely nothing will happen to Fire Genasi who is standing on the prime material plane and is targeted by a Banishment spell. You are a native outsider, and the prime material plane is your home plane.
GothicDan 02-03-06, 09:16 PM	Of course, if your DM had a specific reason to want your character removed (rather than it being just a randomly-cast spell), then it could always be an alternative Banishment-like spell that simply Teleports an individual (or Plane Shifts, in 3E terms) to a random Outer Plane. This ties in with the already-asked question, does your DM WANT you to return?
Ohrer 02-03-06, 09:18 PM	You receive each asault 3d10 of fire damage, and Fire Genasies do not have fire damage resistance... How long have you been there? :uh-huh:
sushi bite 02-04-06, 01:22 AM	You receive each asault 3d10 of fire damage, and Fire Genasies do not have fire damage resistance... How long have you been there? :uh-huh: To make Fire genasi balanced in my campaign, they got Fire Immunity or Fire Resist 10/- ( I can't remember exactly). I personally think it was stupid for them not to get any resist. Air genasi don't have to breath, Water genasi can swim and breath under water, and I don't really remember the benefit of the earth genasi.
Ohrer 02-04-06, 09:41 AM	Originally Posted by sushi bite To make Fire genasi balanced in my campaign, they got Fire Immunity or Fire Resist 10/- Ok, they are balanced, but they are still reciving 3d10-10 point of fire damage, they will die in the Fire elemental Plane too. I believe that his DM didn't think what was doing. He was trying to punish a player and he has killed his PC.
Ferrety 02-18-06, 07:44 AM	Absolutely nothing will happen to Fire Genasi who is standing on the prime material plane and is targeted by a Banishment spell. You are a native outsider, and the prime material plane is your home plane. Please do explain the rules for Banishment. The FRCS clearly states that native outsiders can be banished (p. 18). Only thing I recall from the Players guide To Faerun is that lesser planetouched can also be banished. Why native outsiders cannot be banished from the casters plane?
Otus 02-18-06, 02:34 PM	Please do explain the rules for Banishment. The FRCS clearly states that native outsiders can be banished (p. 18). Only thing I recall from the Players guide To Faerun is that lesser planetouched can also be banished. Why native outsiders cannot be banished from the casters plane? And when non-native outsider can be banished? (If native outsiders cannot be banished [from material plane], can outsiders then never be banished. Or what is their native plane (Material?)) Banishment returns the target to its home plane, and since fire genasi are native to the material plane of Toril they cannot be banished to the elemental plane of fire. They could, however be banished from another plane, I suppose. That could be what FRCS is referring to, or it could just be a difference between 3 and 3.5. (I don't have the book with me now.)
Ripe 02-18-06, 04:18 PM	Banishment returns the target to its home plane, and since fire genasi are native to the material plane of Toril they cannot be banished to the elemental plane of fire. They could, however be banished from another plane, I suppose. That could be what FRCS is referring to, or it could just be a difference between 3 and 3.5. (I don't have the book with me now.) Wrong. Banisment work just fine against native outsiders because it kick extraplanar creatures out of caster's homeplane (and native outsiders are extraplanar even when they are on Toril) [and it send them to random plane]. The spell which return extraplanar creature to its homeplane is dismissal.
Alac Luin 02-18-06, 07:11 PM	From the SRD: "Native Subtype: A subtype applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype’s name). Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep." and "Extraplanar Subtype: A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow." A native outsider born on Toril is NOT Extraplanar while it is Toril. Banishment will not work since it is not extraplaner.
Ferrety 02-19-06, 06:58 AM	A native outsider born on Toril is NOT Extraplanar while it is Toril. Banishment will not work since it is not extraplaner. So the Players guide to Faerun is in error, and Lesser Planetouched cannot be banished? And they are exactly same as non-lesser Planetouched, but they do not have LA. GREAT! Edit: Well of cource not. And I really should not continue with this tone... I think that I'll be using the description of the planetouched given in FRCS, as I like its flavor more. Just one more thing to add to the "Your take on this" -list when starting with new GM.
Ferrety 02-19-06, 07:25 AM	That could be what FRCS is referring to, or it could just be a difference between 3 and 3.5. (I don't have the book with me now.) I don't think so. It was same with the 3.0 as 3.5, we were bit surprised when the p18 of FRCS was shown for the first time. Planetouched were native to Faerun in 3.0 too, so banishment should not have worked against them, but the campaing settings is quite clearly saying the opposite. I don't think there were native outsiders (those were just outsiders) in 3.0 core, and the 3.5 subtype writer has probably fully ignored the Faerun setting, intentionally, or not.
Ripe 02-19-06, 08:56 AM	From FRCS: "Native Outsider: Due to the strenght of their divine or infernal bloodlines, each of the planetouched races possesses the unusual characteristic of being an outsider native to Faerun, not a humanoid. This has three principal effects: First, spells or effects that target only humanoids, such as charm person or a dominate person spell, do not affect planetouched characters. Second, spells and effects that target extraplanar creatures may affect planetouched characters. For example, the mace of smithing and the sword of the planes are more effective against outsiders and are correspondingly more dangerous to a planetouched character. A spell that drives outsiders back to their home planes does not affect planetouched characters, but banishment - a spell that removes an outsider from the caster's plane without specifying a return to the outsider's native plane - would work just fine. Third, Faerun's planetouched have lived on Toril long enough for Toril to become, in effect, their native plane. This means that planetouched characters can be raised or ressurected normally, whereas most outsiders cannot be brought back from the dead without the use of miracle or wish spell." As you can see, Banishment is specifically stated as a spell that would work on planetouched characters.
Alac Luin 02-19-06, 06:16 PM	Whoever wrote that "but banishment - a spell that removes an outsider from the caster's plane without specifying a return to the outsider's native plane - would work just fine." was mistaken. Read the banishment spell, 3.0 or 3.5. Being an outsider has no effect on it. the spell only effects extraplaner creatures. here is the spell from from the 3.0 SRD Banishment Abjuration Level: Clr 6, Sor/Wiz 7 Components: V, S, F Casting Time: 1 action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Targets: One or more extraplanar creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes Banishment enables the character to force extraplanar creatures out of the character's home plane. Up to 2 HD of creatures per caster level can be banished. To target a creature, the character must present at least one object or substance that it hates, fears, or otherwise opposes. For each such object or substance, the character gains +1 on the character's caster level check to overcome the target's SR (if any) and +2 on the saving throw DC. At the DM's option, certain rare items might work twice as well. The spell description makes no mention of outsider what so ever. Only extraplaner. Since the native outsider is not extraplaner, it would have no effect.
Alac Luin 02-19-06, 06:23 PM	So the Players guide to Faerun is in error, and Lesser Planetouched cannot be banished? And they are exactly same as non-lesser Planetouched, but they do not have LA. GREAT! Edit: Well of cource not. And I really should not continue with this tone... I think that I'll be using the description of the planetouched given in FRCS, as I like its flavor more. Just one more thing to add to the "Your take on this" -list when starting with new GM. The only difference is since the lesser planetouched have the humanoid tiype, they can be effected by spells such as charm person. (spells that specify a target of humanoid)
Ferrety 02-20-06, 07:22 AM	Whoever wrote that "but banishment - a spell that removes an outsider from the caster's plane without specifying a return to the outsider's native plane - would work just fine." was mistaken. And this discussion is really pointless, if one keeps ignoring what is written in the FCRS and PGtF relating to the planetouched (and especially about banishment.) Everybody reading the rsrd, or srd, should clearly see (well, I think I clearly saw... I might be wrong) that banishment does not work against outsiders on their native plane. It should not work against planetouched in Toril, as they are said to be native to that plane. But FRCS clearly contradicts this, as everyone who actually has bothered to read the FRCS - and the players guide - can see. And the above paragraph is the reason my cranky tone. Yes, indeed, by the core, banishment does not work against outsiders on their plane, and thusly, you cannot banish planetouched (native outsider of Toril) creature from Faerun. Yes, indeed, the Forgotten Realms Campaing Settings clearly states, and the Players Guide to the Faerun implies, that the banishment works against planetouched, even on their native plane, Toril. And yes, this indeed is the Forgotten Realms General discussion forum. So, you are saying(are you?) that FRCS (and the Player Guide) is wrong, and one should ignore it. I think that is fine and dandy, but it as fine and dandy not to ignore them. But why don't you just say so, instead of making me second quessing you. (And yes, I do know that lesser planetouched are humanoids susceptible for example charm spell, but gee whizh, I think that I shall ignore that, as I will ignore the part about the banishment spell... :eek: well, not really.)
Mula 02-20-06, 09:00 AM	Confused people: "Outsider" does not equal "Extraplanar". "Extraplanar" is a subtype that can be applied to any creature, regardless of its type (whether humanoid, aberration, dragon, fey, construct, or outsider). When a creature leaves its home plane (home plane = the plane on which it was born) and travels to another plane of existence, the creature gains the extraplanar subtype. Thus, all creatures gain the extraplanar subtype when visiting other planes, planes where they were not born on. Native outsiders are outsiders with a strong hereditary link to the Material Plane. Only creatures of the outsider type can be "native", because "native" is a subtype only applied to certain outsiders. The name is very misleading and a better name to describe these creatures would be "mortal outsider", or outsider (mortal). Outsiders without the native subtype do not need to eat or sleep, but outsiders (native) do need to both eat and sleep. That is why the name "mortal" would fit native outsiders better. All planetouched (aasimar, tieflings, etc.) are native outsiders, which means they're a lot more mortal-like than other outsiders - mainly because they need to both eat and sleep (and they age, too). A tiefling born on the Material Plane is an outsider (native) whose home plane is the Material Plane, but a tiefling born on the Nine Hells is an outsider (native) whose home plane is the Nine Hells. The spells banishment and dismissal only affect extraplanar creatures, creatures who have left their home plane (home plane = the plane a creature is born on). A tiefling born on the Material Plane is not affected by banishment or dismissal while on the Material Plane because he was born on the Material Plane and thus he is not extraplanar while residing on the Material Plane. However, a tiefling born on the Nine Hells residing on the Material Plane is affected by the two spells because the Material Plane is not his home plane and thus he gains the extraplanar subtype while on the Material Plane. Similarly, a fire genasi born on the Material Plane is not affected by banishment or dismissal while on the Material Plane. Remember, outsider does not equal extraplanar.
Ferrety 02-20-06, 09:53 AM	Confused people: Let me clarify the confusion: Forgotten Realms Campaign Settings disagrees with the core rules of banishing native outsiders (planetouched). You can find this disagreement in the page 18 of the Forgotten Realms Campaing Settings book. And it is also relevant to other similar spells. Similarly, a fire genasi born on the Material Plane is not affected by banishment or dismissal while on the Material Plane. Remember, outsider does not equal extraplanar. The original GM was not on the wrong when he banished the fire genasi. He was correctly using the rules of the campaing setting he is playing in (I am assuming the campaing is Forgotten Realms campaing, as the original question was given in this forum). The Forgotten Realms settings seems to assume that even though planetouched are native to the Toril, "spells and effects that target extraplanar creatures may affect planetouched characters", due their bloodline. You might disagree with the setting, but it should be obvious that the FRCS as written is not using the core rules for planetouched. Edit: Or is it? Is there any reason to believe that the setting writer did not mean what he wrote? Am I too naive when assuming that writers of the FRCS and Plaeyrs Guide did know what they were doing. I personally do like the FRCS text, as it mechanically underlines the "you are different" aspect of the planetouched.
Kuje31 02-20-06, 12:06 PM	Cough, Then why doesn't someone go ask Richard Baker. :)
Alac Luin 02-20-06, 05:52 PM	Cough, Then why doesn't someone go ask Richard Baker. :) Hey, don't try to make sence here :) I'll go submit that in a moment. :)
Kuje31 02-20-06, 06:00 PM	Hey, don't try to make sence here :) I'll go submit that in a moment. :) :) I'm sorry, I'll try to not make sense next time. :)
Alac Luin 02-20-06, 06:10 PM	:) I'm sorry, I'll try to not make sense next time. :) :D "Ok I asked Rich, I think I was fair on the question Rich, From a discution from another thread. Here if intrested, but here is the gist of it. Pg 18 FRCS on planetouched and even PGtF pg 191 make reference to planetouched being susceptible to the banishment spell. the line in PGTF (if useing the lesser planetouched) says something like "specificly targets both humanoids or outsiders" well, by the description of of the banishment spell, it does not target outsiders, it targets extraplaner creatures. Does the the text in the FRCS and PGtF overrule this? As in can a planetouched that was born on Toril be banished from Toril?" We are now waiting for his reply.
Alac Luin 02-20-06, 07:48 PM	Ok, we have an answer. Seems to be an evolutionary remnant. I think at one point even before the 3.0 PH was finished the banishment spell said "outsider," not "extraplanar." To me, this says "ignore the statements in FRCS and PGtF". I went on to ask him.... I think I know what this implies, I take that as a "a planetouched that was born on Toril cannot be banished from Toril?". (really, I'm not trying to be dificult, it just comes naturally to me. ;) )
Ferrety 02-21-06, 07:26 AM	Well, color me red. Hey, I was (probably) wrong to put more weight on the FRCS than core. And I was probably wrong to keep insisting about that, but on the gripping hand, if I would not have, I would still be wrong. It really should not be this hard to clearly state that the FRCS authors were not correct (aren’t there erratas for this stuff), and it sounds really strange if one starts talking about what the rules were before PHB 3.0, when some of the stuff in question were published in 2004… Ah, damn, I really thought the bloodlines part of planetouched was kind of nice touch in Forgotten Realms. But there is no point insisting that the author, who ever he was, might have thought so (it was just pretty stupid mistake). And as the original fire genasi demonstrates, it can have serious consequences.
Ripe 02-21-06, 08:50 AM	...Hey, I was (probably) wrong to put more weight on the FRCS than core. ... No you were not wrong in doing that since we have several core rules overuled by FRCS (Monks and Paladins cannot multiclass freely is one of them). The general rule is: Use the Core rules unless they were overruled by specific rules for the settings you're playing in. And in this case settings rules overuled core rules. By the way this particular point was NOT errated in official FRCS errata, while some smaller errors were.
Alac Luin 02-21-06, 12:52 PM	No you were not wrong in doing that since we have several core rules overuled by FRCS (Monks and Paladins cannot multiclass freely is one of them). The general rule is: Use the Core rules unless they were overruled by specific rules for the settings you're playing in. And in this case settings rules overuled core rules. By the way this particular point was NOT errated in official FRCS errata, while some smaller errors were. I agree with this compleatly. Other instances where FRCS over writes core rules.... All divine casters needing a patron deity and various other divine caster things that I don't want to go into now ;) I'm all for using things written in the FRCS instead of the core rules. but there are a few things that happened durring devlopment that didn't cross over. Another example, Elminster's stat block. There are issues there relateing to Different rules for Epic spell casting, I can't tell you what they are but they have been discused on these boards once or twice. The difference I made with this planetouched thing is most of the other differences (Monks and Paladins multiclassing freely) refer to the core rule correctly, and states the exeption. The thing on banishment working on outsiders refered to the core rule incorrectly. Silly of me? Maybe. :D Should this have made the Errata? Definitly!!!!
Alac Luin 02-21-06, 01:13 PM	And as the original fire genasi demonstrates, it can have serious consequences. Now, we can talk about the original post :) Would I allow how I interpret the rule to stop that from happening, If I had a story line to follow. A little while back I twisted the the Dismissal spell to send a star elf back to their home plane. Dismissal is only supposed to effect one creature, and the star elf got caught along with the real target of the spell. It went with the story, and had plans for the character to continue their career, we just haven't got back to her. Did the OP's DM have a story? I don't know. The OP needs to talk to the DM. It is possible the DM saw the campaign hiatus coming and planed this to give an in game reason to have some one-on-one game sessions with this player, until the campaign starts back up. If this is the case, thumbs-up to the inventive DM. Unfortunately, it sounds more like the DM was abusing the rules to remove a problem character, or just to prove they are a deadly DM. Thumbs down in this case.
Ripe 02-21-06, 01:26 PM	The thing on banishment working on outsiders refered to the core rule incorrectly. Silly of me? Maybe. :D Should this have made the Errata? Definitly!!!! I agree with you. And no, it was not silly of you. But consider this: You look in FRCS and see that Banisment affect planetouched characters. Now, you know that this should not be because Banisment because they are not extraplanar on Faerun. [As a side note Banisment affected only extraplanar creatures even in 2nd ed. so why did they plan to change it to outsider is beyond me - and yes, I dig out my old 2nd ed. PHB to check it :D ] So you log on to WotC homepage, go to check official errata for FRCS and you see a lot of things errated but not this one. What is a poor DM to think other than that it should be like that?
Mula 02-21-06, 01:57 PM	I agree with you. And no, it was not silly of you. But consider this: You look in FRCS and see that Banisment affect planetouched characters. Now, you know that this should not be because Banisment because they are not extraplanar on Faerun. [As a side note Banisment affected only extraplanar creatures even in 2nd ed. so why did they plan to change it to outsider is beyond me - and yes, I dig out my old 2nd ed. PHB to check it :D ] So you log on to WotC homepage, go to check official errata for FRCS and you see a lot of things errated but not this one. What is a poor DM to think other than that it should be like that? The problematic text in FRCS says, "A spell that drives outsiders back to their home planes does not affect planetouched characters, but banishment - a spell that removes an outsider from the caster's plane without specifying a return to the outsider's native plane - would work just fine." So, according to the text, only banishment would whisk a planetouched creature away from Toril, because banishment, according to the text, affects outsiders without specifying a target plane. However, the spell banishment only speaks of extraplanar creatures - no mention of outsiders. Any creature, regardless of type, can be an extraplanar creature. Outsider does not equal extraplanar. The text in FRCS is in error because banishment does not work as it says. Note that it says, "A spell that drives outsiders back to their home planes does not affect planetouched characters," but then follows with an exception - an exception that is invalid because it talks of a nonexistent rule.
Ferrety 02-21-06, 02:18 PM	The problematic text in FRCS says, "A spell that drives outsiders back to their home planes does not affect planetouched characters, but banishment - a spell that removes an outsider from the caster's plane without specifying a return to the outsider's native plane - would work just fine." Well, the problematic text starts with: "Second, spells and effects that target extraplanar creatures may affect planetouched characters" And then goes on to give specifics. To me it is rather hard not to read that passage as "planetouched are extraplanar on Toril" [as other parts of the text keeps refering things on Toril. And if this is not special FR rule, it doesn't make any sense, so it must be such rule :embarrass ] But then, Mace of Smiting being more dangerous to outsiders. Oh dear. Yes, writer of this was not using the same rule books that I am, which is a tad surprising (to me, at least). And well, there are other core rule overrides in FRCS, and some of them are more troublesome at least for me, so this one did not sound too much of a stretch. I edited this to be more focused on the outsider issue, removing stuff about wizardly monks, and sorcerous paladins.
Mula 02-21-06, 04:18 PM	3e didn't have the extraplanar subtype. In other words, 3e never really specified what exactly "extraplanar" meant. Maybe that's causing some confusion. :)