Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KRONOS 08-27-03, 11:09 PM	I am DMing my regular group and they have decided to try and rid the world of Larloch. In his write up in LoD, he is surrounded by other liches and vampires aswell as his own undead army. How many undead would be in Larlochs tower complex? Could I get feedback from all of you as to some round about numbers you would consider correct. Any ideas? When I started to sort thru the idea I figured I sould get other opinons. I don't think my players know what they are going up against, yet! Any help would be appreciated.
Gotrex 08-27-03, 11:55 PM	Vampires and liche's in there hundreds (id hazard a guess at about 200 or 300 perhaps 400) and lesser undead in there thousands quite simply the party are all over about level 30 or so they are going to die if they try and bust into larlochs lair though dont tell them that - this will be a good lesson for them about trying to assasinate super high level characters when you aint ready for it :)
kedi 08-28-03, 02:20 AM	Well, lorloch huh??? The most intelligent creature on toril, more intelligent than bane, tempus, chauntea, sune and so on, he can make almost perfect plans with his 34 intelligent, he has total 26 or 21 spell levelslots. He knows every spell crafted (commons, uncommonsi rares, few unique spells) and hes an former arcanist, killig him is harder than killing el, unless you find the phylactery and destroy it and than attack on him. Don't understand why people wants to kill thatt kinda legendary figures, mostly impossible, but give a shot, if i was their DM, i would surely kill them, a regular group vs lorloch,...he would finish them off in three or two spells, i suggest you to intimidate yer players in game about not going. If they, however, battles with lorloch, surely killl them. They can't stand against him for 2 minutes. -kedi
kedi 08-28-03, 02:24 AM	Originally posted by Gotrex Vampires and liche's in there hundreds (id hazard a guess at about 200 or 300 perhaps 400) and lesser undead in there thousands quite simply the party are all over about level 30 or so they are going to die if they try and bust into larlochs lair though dont tell them that - this will be a good lesson for them about trying to assasinate super high level characters when you aint ready for it :) I agree with you. Let them suffer so they'll understand how mighty they're:devil:
Dargoth 08-28-03, 02:55 AM	200 Vampires? No sweat thats what the wands of Daylights are for :D
lordmaxwell 08-28-03, 07:54 AM	Won't be a sweat, by the time the party decides to attempt it they should have Elminster as a rather lackluster cohort already. (Drizzt was killed off with shouts off "kill the worthless drag" years ago due to being a gimp compared to other cohorts.) Gotta have a party in the same spirit as the bad guys they are to fight.
Ascaron 08-28-03, 08:21 AM	in my opinion you'll have to come with an army, consisting of 50% highlevel-clerics. or a even greater army of undead... the can't even imagine the EL for larlochs whole army... and larloch himself... he has access to technology dating back from old netheril... and spells from netheril. just think of szass tam, he's very mighty too, but he replies to larloch - and there got to be a reason why a zulkir of necromancy of thay does so. rgds, ascaron
Triton 08-28-03, 09:28 AM	I agree with the rest. If yor party can just go into Larloch's stronghold and fire a couple of wands and kill hundreds of liches and vampires, then maybe you should go play monopoly against your three year old sister. Larloch is Faerun's version of Vecna. He could be a god of undeath if he wanted the burden. He could make a legitamate bid for lord of the north, but he has all he wants, so why be lord of a lot of puny mortals. Someone who makes Tam pee himself is not someone to be trifled with. If they try to assault Larloch he will turn them into undead servants just as the poor knight in the Summoning in Karse. I'm sure a party high enough in level to think of attacking Larloch would make excellent servants. I know my necromancer would love to have them.
Gotrex 08-28-03, 09:42 AM	all this and you still have more of a chance than you really should larloch got a really stupid level nerf in 3e (in my campaign hes level 40 :))
Crust 08-28-03, 10:43 AM	Read this carefully. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- According to Ed Greenwood: Larloch is a onetime Netherese sorcerer (still possessed of a lot of Netherese scepters, which he knows how to make) who is now a quite insane "ultra-lich" (in this case, the term means he has many unknown powers which are up to you the DM, among them the fact that he can still learn and develop new spells, increase in levels, etc.). He's probably a 46th level evil-aligned wizard right now, and he crafted many of his own undead abilities prior to undeath, which argues that he found his own 'process' for achieving lichdom. Larloch is served by many (60+ ?) liches, formerly archwizards, whom he guides in concert, as the leader of a telepathic-web 'Overmind.' Thus far, neither psionics nor mind-influencing magics have ever been effective against him or any of his servitor mages, because the others in the link can withstand and overcome such influences, causing them to fail. In theory, an attack could reach all of them through the link, but some quite powerful Red Wizards have tried and failed (Szass Tam didn't try such an attack, which may be why he survived...he remains fearful of approaching Larloch and his mages, but fascinated by the details of their lichdom, hoping it might yield him some powers.) One of Larloch's given-to-himself powers (which - in a long, involved, and secret, personally-developed process - cost him 10 years of life and some vitality, irrelevant of course given his goal of lichdom) is automatic spell reflection (of all magic cast upon him). He can by act of will override this ability, for example when he wants to work a spell on himself; otherwise, it always operates. Mystra (Midnight's predecessor as the goddess) is said to have allowed Larloch to acquire powers approaching those of "old Netheril" in return for 'leaking' spells to persistent adventurers he or his minions might come into contact with, but this may be no more than rumour spread by the Zhents or Red Wizards or Dragon Cultists, designed to lure adventurers into Larloch-weakening forays... As for Larloch knowing the identities and locations of other liches/Netherese survivors...no, only the one's he's destroyed. Larloch is too self-centered to hunt down folks who don't come within his easy reach. He controls plenty of archwizards/liches already, but may decide to try to either control or destroy a new one when they come into contact. He seems to be pursuing other goals, however. Which ones? That's up to each DM....." Larloch and his lich minions have no interest in attracting attention that would waste their time and magical resources (and perhaps, if word got around how dangerous they were, even threaten their existence in the face of a concerted attack from various magical power groups working together). Larloch is not interested in ruling Faerun...but he IS interested in creating and controlling a series of magical gates linking many worlds (parallel Prime Material Planes) and Outer Planes...and so rigging their enchantments that anyone using them comes under his control/faces his forceful removal of their magic items, information from their mind, and so forth. The gates are easy for him to create (he licked all of those problems long ago). The control enchantments have been giving him troubles for thousands of years now, and as an obsessive perfectionist, he isn't going to let this rest until he gets everything just so...nor is he going to create the gates until he's ready to put the controls on them. In short, he's a munchkin only if played that way. All Player Characters have to learn sometime that there are folks in the Realms just too powerful to tangle with. I'm reminded of the original Realms campaign, and the Company of Crazed Venturers attacking Shaan the Serpent-Queen (who briefly appeared in a Wizards Three DRAGON article). She was busy working magic on a small island off Mintarn. They attacked, broke her concentration, and she looked up with an irritated frown. They bid her stop, or they'd destroy what she was working on; to demonstrate, one of the Company mages touched (and disintegrated) a stone he was standing beside. She shook her head in derision, and touched the island beneath them, disintegrating IT, and dumping the Company into the chilly sea waves for a long swim...whilst she turned back to her spellcasting, floating on nothing and ignoring them once more. A heavy-handed lesson, but...well, Larloch's in the same league, and more. Just consider him a power of the Realms and Don't Go There. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please don't soil a campaign with the laughable destruction of an untra-lich who would slay any PCs before they get within spitting distance.
Triton 08-28-03, 10:48 AM	How is the party going to overcome 400 phylacteries? Unknown number of vampires, death knights, and "minor" undead. If it was my world, the minimum I would council my party to do is form a holy army. Quest to get the aid of Kelemvor, Lathander, and Torm. With a strong army of clerics, followed by help from a huge mercenary army, or a large contingent of mid level adventurers. Still on top of this I would enlist the power of a large cadre of Mages, several of near 20 level just to start. You would also need at least one artifact to counter the phylacteries, and magic of the undead. Add to this the Simbul for spell leadership and a epic level paladin of Kelemvor and you might be ready to start planning the best battle strategy of your life to maybe stand a 50% chance of a win. Be prepared to write many letters to the families of the dead.:behold:
louissan 08-28-03, 10:49 AM	Please don't soil a campaign with the laughable destruction of an untra-lich who would slay any PCs before they get within spitting distance. [/B] Totally agree ... but ... ... but wait till they bring along 40th leveln ultra min-maxed characters that have been played for 15 days (to quote someone: "if you've played 2 years with the same character and remained at 17th level, then you're not adventuring enough" - end of quote) ... Munchkin, monty-haul kings are around ... they lurk on the far edges of the nice games you prepare for players & friends ... beware :88E:
Triton 08-28-03, 10:59 AM	I think the concensus is that most of us consider this to be the culmination of a life of epic campaigning. When your party has become so powerful that they are ready to end their characters life, then attack Larloch. Take the role-playing up a notch and create the mother of all epic level campaigns. See Die Vecna Die, and keep in mind that your playing sides between to demipowers to stay alive. Larloch in his home turf is as powerful as Vecna in this module. Maybe even more so when you consider the other demiliches that are his to control. This goal is the end total of a parties campaigning. When it is done they will directly serve their gods either dead or alive. :b:
Crust 08-28-03, 11:00 AM	It shouldn't matter what level the PCs are. It's not even up to the PCs whether they win or lose against Larloch. It's all up to the DM. A being like Larloch, if introduced into a campaign the correct way (based on the above lore provided by Greenwood himself), might not be able to clean the floor with a party of 40th level PCs, but he certainly should not be found, let alone destroyed. He would be able to orchestrate the deaths of those PCs as soon as they made the decision to seek him out and destroy him. They shouldn't even have a clue as to who was responsible.
Masakado 08-28-03, 11:11 AM	Larloch says: "Be kind enough to clean up your own entrails after I have re-animated you. A clean crypt is a happy crypt."
Pandelume 08-28-03, 11:12 AM	Lets just say some how some party killed all Larloch army and got past the spellweb. Got past the all the trap in Warloch crypt and got to Larloch throne\library room. Do they really think they find Larloch waiting their to die. ? I would image he would teleport out and run away.
louissan 08-28-03, 11:14 AM	Be kind enough to clean up your own entrails after I have re-animated you. A clean crypt is a happy crypt." gnihihihihi :D :pile:
Savras 08-28-03, 12:49 PM	Originally posted by Dargoth 200 Vampires? No sweat thats what the wands of Daylights are for :D Yep. Ant that's why the Vampire Archmages will reply with the causal Mage's Disjunction, followed by a Quickened Timestop and a few spells of their choice. Also, never forget about Larloch's "stuff"- he has artifacts in his attic. He gave two to Szass-Tam, and is rumered to have more. Also, I do not think an army can kill him. Why? Well, armies are hard to hide. As the army approaches, or, if to be more precise, once the army is starting to assemble, all of the Lichs (including Him) teleport there. They kill as many as they can, using their ultra-powerful spells. When they get fairly wounded (50%), the Contingency kicks in. Rinse and repeat until you run out of army. http://www.geocities.com/sirgrimsage/Smilies/savras.txt Savras
KRONOS 08-28-03, 02:47 PM	Thanks for the ideas. Don't get me wrong. I have NOOOOOO intention of making this an easy(or even possible) one or two night excursion. I was thinking in the realm of 200 lich & vampire, high powered, opponents as previously mentioned. And a virtual never ending army of weaker undead. I think I will arrange it so the party is forced to take a guerrilla warfare style. Going in, destroying what they can, and quickly realizing they are in way over their heads. I will leave it up to chance to see if they are persued very far. If they play smart(even though putting larloch in their crosshairs isn't) I could fill up quite alot of game time I think. Having to go find an item to help them achieve this goal could make this story line super long. As for Larloch himself. I have no intention of even letting the party see him. Unless they come up with an army of high level clerics I don't even need to concern myself with that. Any tweeks too this plan?
Gotrex 08-28-03, 03:11 PM	though that tactic is a good idea if they do it to much i think larloch will just flood the area with lesser undead so let them play that game for a while but then when larloch gets fed up have legions of lesser undead start turning up to patrol the area larloch and his minions are not incompetant enough to allow your PCs to keep sneaking in and out without taking action
Triton 08-28-03, 03:30 PM	Keep in mind that Larloch kills those that are a threat, toys with those that aren't, and takes what he wants. Many adventurer's have taken on Larloch just to have their paladin killed and raised as a death knight that will only be released if the party fetches an item for Larloch. Just ask Tam.:b:
louissan 08-28-03, 04:04 PM	Plus, a nice little army of LG soldiers makes a wonderful base material for experiments and raising a totally different new one. :D "Thank you, mortals." About the guerilla idea: that could work for a little while, but remember that these are no goblins or orcs your PCs are up against. No, we're talking 20+ intelligence scores ... and divination spells come in so handy, don't you think? In addition, Larloch imself might up to reduce the party to a bloody pulp, just to show that he is not to be trifled with, or show his followers that he has not become senile, or, or, or ... you get the idea :D
Masakado 08-28-03, 04:29 PM	Originally posted by louissan In addition, Larloch imself might up to reduce the party to a bloody pulp, just to show that he is not to be trifled with, or show his followers that he has not become senile, or, or, or ... you get the idea :D Nah, Larloch would slaughter everyone save one PC. This guy would naturally be dirty, unkept, totally insane, and would wander the countryside mumbling, frothing at the mouth, and serving as a living example of what happens to the lucky people that Larloch decides to let go. There are some things you just don't do. Bet against the blind man when Zatoichi is throwing the dice. Spit into the wind. Rebroadcast a MLB baseball game without the expressed, written permission of the commissioner. Go to Larloch's home turf with firm expectations of victory. Anyone who challenges Larloch will drop faster than a sack full of wet mice, or a black dress on prom night.
Archmage 08-28-03, 04:39 PM	Originally posted by louissan Larloch imself might up to reduce the party to a bloody pulp, just to show that he is not to be trifled with, or show his followers that he has not become senile Ah, but that's the thing, isn't it? According to Lords of Darkness, Larloch is becoming senile. From LoD, pg. 162: His mind has been affected by his extreme age as well, for at times he is crazed, hurling spells at random, and others he is completely calm.
louissan 08-28-03, 05:13 PM	Originally posted by Archmage Ah, but that's the thing, isn't it? According to Lords of Darkness, Larloch is becoming senile. From LoD, pg. 162: Well let's say the party is plain unlucky and happens to pop up during one of his sanity phases... however, remember: even though Larloch may be insane, he remains far from being stupid. See the difference? ;)
KRONOS 08-28-03, 05:19 PM	I am guessing the PC's are going to have a had enough time with the outer defences. Then Larlock himself will not even bother getting involved. I will just have him work through the other liches. I think this is going to be fun!
KRONOS 08-28-03, 05:22 PM	You are very correct! Insane and stupid are different indeed. Just ask Halaster.
Kuje31 08-28-03, 05:33 PM	Well you have to remember also that ALL of the Seven Sisters are insane also as is Elminster. Insane doesn't mean stupid though. Especially in Elminster's case, he's been turned into a female, he's had his mind warped so many times he's lost count, he's over 1200 and has the blood of a goddess in his veins. All of Myster's Chosen are insane in some form.
Pandelume 08-28-03, 05:55 PM	Trouble is that Larloch standard attack plan for people who comes to to his cypt is to throw like 20+ lich at them. Remember first person to come back from Warlock crypt alive bought a plague with him that all most wiped out Baldur’s gate. That the sort of person Larloch.
Savras 08-28-03, 06:02 PM	The guerilla wouldn't work:Originally written in Lords of Darkness Most times he slays intruders outright and although He has been known to converse with adventurers before slaying them, and has a reputation for freeing some in exchange for service. These services usually involve bringing him some powerful and well-gaurded magic items, and he shrouds his captives in contigent curses and geases should they think to abandon their task. in the FRCS it is written (pg 296) If anyone ventures too close to the crypt, Larloch sends lich after spell-hurling lichto destroy them or drive them into flight. (When the liches come, remember Contingency and that even if killed, they will soon come back.) So I think he isn't likely to meet many adventurers... Savras
Savras 08-28-03, 06:14 PM	Originally posted by Pandelume Remember first person to come back from Warlock crypt alive bought a plague with him that all most wiped out Baldur’s gate. That the sort of person Larloch. ??? When, who, and how do you know? Savras
The Simbul 08-29-03, 10:04 AM	Attempting to assault the Warlock in his stronghold indicates much more than a simple deathwish, there are far worse fates than being slain. The only possible way he could ever be placed into a position of vulnerability is if he were somehow lured away from his crypt, which is virtually impossible unless A) some cataclysm is about to befall the realms, or B) Toril is has just cracked in two. In either scenario the Players would have far more to worry about than whether or not their uber-munckin min/maxed PC's with the L337 equipment can attempt to survive against him long enough to make their initiative roll. The only way sure way to defeat Larloch is with the Art, and he is by far one of the most potent wielders of it. That is in addition to the VAST rescources and Art wielding minions at his disposal. To defeat him and his armies would either require A) one of the most earth-shattering spell battles since the days of Netheril, or B) another Time of Troubles in which all Arcane Magic would cease to function. In either case I doubt Mystra would allow such ego-driven PC quests to wreak so much havoc on the Weave and Toril itself. Mystra doesnt look kindly on the wreckless slaying of potent Archmages unless they are a direct threat to the stability of the Weave. She has been lenient with Larloch's use of the Weave in exchange for his distribution of some of his rare spells accross Toril (the research and use of new spells aids Mystra, even if the Wizards researching them do not share her goals). Of course the Imperialist faction Red Wizards are always fair game, as they rarely share their spells with others, and only in recent years have they engaged in any practices that truly aid the Weave as opposed to abusing it. On a side note: Originally posted by Savras Yep. Ant that's why the Vampire Archmages will reply with the causal Mage's Disjunction, followed by a Quickened Timestop and a few spells of their choice. Lets hope they have Mastery of Shaping, since casting a Disjuction in the presence of so many Artifacts can have some nasty side effects for a spellcaster. :D
Azeem Hesaad 08-29-03, 12:58 PM	I have read the description of Larloch, with his dazzling array of ioun stones that can do anything from duplicating a Cloak of Etherealness to providing that +1 insight bonus to AC. Not to mention that fact that he is an epic-level wizard. If I were going to round out his total number of minions I would say that he personally doesn't have that many since it notes him as being reclusive, so I would give him an epic lich or two (apprentices), or even a demi-lich, and a couple of high-level vampires who could be anything from clerics to wizards to fighters, though fighters would be preferable. As for the others I would say there are a handful of liches around him (10-20), each with his own set of undead and that can be skeletons, ghouls, wights, zombies, ghasts, ghosts, spell-stiched creatures, and just a dizzying array of undead. I wouldn't be surprised if there were the occasional nightwalker running around there on some dank dungeon level. This would also attract a bunch of plain and ordinary necromancers who hadn't made the transition from living to lich. So I would say that the chances of a party of PCs breaking in and slaying every undead in there would be "impossible". I say just let Larloch be, he already has been for 2,000 years!
Gotrex 08-29-03, 03:54 PM	"10-20" ???? its a fact that he has 100 - 200 liches around him not 10 - 20
Savras 08-29-03, 04:55 PM	Greenwood said he has 60+ liches. He didn't say anything about the vampires, though. Savras
Numos3 08-29-03, 11:41 PM	Not to mention his minions, larloch himself has an astounding ammount of "firepower" and if his minions are unable to destroy the party, he most likely has some VERY potent death spells prepared for such an ocasion, he has had a very long time to research such spells. Also, don't mind my asking but: does Larloch use the weave, or shadow weave, or is he not bound by either?
Anthraxx The Lich 08-30-03, 12:05 AM	okay so let them go, forget all the minions larloch will destroy them all in 2 rounds for sure!! being insane will only help that along, the best lich is an uncontrolable 1, so what if they beat him?? they have to find his source to finnish him completely, now that they will have no chance of ever.....from memory it aint even on the prime plane.....lol....best of luck to your players.....throw them against a lich with a few vampires first see how they go and just say that encounter is about 1/20th the power of larloch
The Simbul 08-30-03, 04:29 AM	Originally posted by Numos3 Also, don't mind my asking but: does Larloch use the weave, or shadow weave, or is he not bound by either? Larloch uses the Weave, even before the fall of Netheril arcane spellcasters still needed access to a weave in order to cast spells. Since the fall of Netheril there have obviously been more restrictions on the use of the Weave, however Mystra gives Larloch bit of leeway in exchange for him leaking some of his spells out to adventurers and such. In addition, one could easily assume that he has the Epic Spellcasting feat.
Gotrex 08-30-03, 09:46 AM	one of main thing that makes larloch really hard is his access to magic items he can have anything friend of mine was once in this situation party got power hungry and wanted to kill larloch even though he told them they had no chance of doing it so he let them find larloch without encountering much resistance and just equiped larloch with the most powerful items he could find in all his source books and destroyed the entire party in about 3 or 4 rounds :)
Savras 08-30-03, 10:31 AM	Gotrex- Larloch needn't use "the most powerful stuff in sourcebooks". He uses *artifacts*. He has *several artifacts*. So, give him the Wand of Ultra Blasting, the Ring of Deity Control, the Death Star, whatever... or all. Larloch has the most arcane resources on Faerûn, more than the Chosen of Mystra *combined*. Savras
Crust 08-30-03, 12:13 PM	Originally posted by Gotrex one of main thing that makes larloch really hard is his access to magic items he can have anything friend of mine was once in this situation party got power hungry and wanted to kill larloch even though he told them they had no chance of doing it so he let them find larloch without encountering much resistance and just equiped larloch with the most powerful items he could find in all his source books and destroyed the entire party in about 3 or 4 rounds :) Good. Sometimes players need to be properly educated. I've done that before.
Israfel666 08-30-03, 05:18 PM	Killing the party is uneffective, vulgar and unimpressive. If you decided that they will lose to Larloch, you should make it a *painful* encounter. Really painful. They should carry the scars of it for years. Painful for the characters: - (BoVD inspired) One of the lesser liches feeds them a powerful drug. They will die if they don't get regular doses of it, and the only ones outside of Larloch's minions who have that drug are the devils. They will provide the characters with the necessary doses... for a price. - Geas/Quest on each of them(with enough metamagic that dispelling it is really hard): each must kill one of the members of the party to survive. Painful for the players: - 50 liches cast Larloch's Disjunction (as Mordenkainen's, but no effect on artifacts). 50 saving throws DC 35. Goodbye magical equipment... - 15th level spells: Heightened Intensified Energy Drain. So, how does losing sixteen levels feel?
rmilsop 08-31-03, 01:17 AM	Originally posted by Israfel666 - 15th level spells: Heightened Intensified Energy Drain. So, how does losing sixteen levels feel? I'm a player, and I'm the sort of player who would be dumb enough to try this sort of thing - and I have to say, that that idea is probably the best way to stop me from ever, ever trying it again.
KRONOS 08-31-03, 03:20 AM	There are some good ideas here, thanks. I do not wish to kill them though. Lucky for me they are quite expereinced players and can determine quickly if there is too much opposition. Hopefully they figure this out in time. I guess it all depends on how they prepare for this one.
Disciple of Darkness 08-31-03, 04:19 AM	Okay, I just want to add my own opinion here - don't lynch me or something... You all have made some valid points why Larloch is nearly unassailable in the Warlock's Crypt. However, we must remember that only an Epic level party could seriously challenge him - and when someone is powerful enough to seriously challenge Larloch, it's possible that he or she or they can destroy the Shadow King. I said possible, not easy - only a fairly incompetent DM would allow so powerful character as Larloch to fall easily. My suggestions for destroying Larloch - lure him out of the Warlock's Crypt (it can be done, but it's downright hard - you must do something serious enough to varrant Larloch's personal interest) and then, when he's not protected by the hordes of lesser undead, attack him and make sure that he cannot teleport back to the Warlock's Crypt. Anyone who wants to assault Larloch while he's still in his place of power (Warlock's Crypt) must be at least 40th level - and even then they can be destroyed before they reach Lalroch. So, be at least 50th level when you attack Warlock's Crypt directly and make sure that you have an army of clerics, paladins and undead-hunters at your disposal.
Savras 08-31-03, 05:01 AM	I won't lynch you, but I *will* tell you why you are, in my opinion, wrong. First, to lure Larloch- if it interests Larloch, you can bet the Red Wizards, the Zhentarim, the Cult of the Dragon and the Chosen also care. Second, he has an Int of 34 (more than some deities!), and he has acces to magic. He will use Divination spells first to see what is going on, and only when he is sure there is no danger to himself he will go. Let us say your 50 level PCs (who will soon be rather dead, or in pain) are able to confound the Shadow King's divinations and he comes. They cast Heightened Dimensional Anchor and attack in the Surprise round. Larloch's first action- use his mental connection with his liches (see Greenwood's passage, above) and summon them all, asap. Then, quickened Timestop and so many defensive spells he can't be harmed, and *then*, as his Standard+ME actions, he wips out his artifact of chioce and uses it once. Round 2: Liches arrive outside of the spell's AoE, since Larloch told them (free action) where to teleport themselves. Note- Larloch would know, it has a visible manifistation and he has Spellcraft anyway. So, we have 50 Epic liches and Larloch. PCs die. Larloch isn't destroyed. Also notice, assuming your PCs somehow prevented this and succeded killing Larloch. he is a lich. A week later (or less) he will return, rather vexed, and they will be the poorest, most miserable beings on Faeûn's surface, or, indeed, the most wreched souls to ever set foot on Abier-Toril. Savras P.S.: See an earlier post of mine about the fate of the army.
The Simbul 08-31-03, 05:59 AM	Luring Larloch into a trap??? It would be more like thinking you are luring him into a trap, when in fact he is setting a trap for you. I would imagine Larloch could easily use a Simulacrum or Eidolon in place of actually leaving his crypt. The only thing worse than having a slain Lich return when you cant find his phylactery, is having expended all of your recources and exposed all of your tactics to defeat a simulacrum of the Wizard, and then having him send a few minions (or making a final personal appearence, magically armed to the teeth) to finish you off.
Alratan 08-31-03, 06:44 AM	The only viable way I can see of killing Larloch is to make friends with Lathander, and persuade him to use his Undead Mastery SDA to auto-destroy Larloch and all his minions as a free action, with no save, SR, or other possible defense. Apart from this, the best thing to do would be things like opening multiple gates to the elemental plane of magma above his crypt whilst simultaneously creating a dead magic zone that covered the place.
Israfel666 08-31-03, 07:23 AM	Hey, just one thing: last time I checked, Larloch had only 20 HD plus the standard +4 lich turn resistance, and I don't know of any arcane spell that protects a lich from turning. That means that a 24th level cleric of Lathander with CHA 30 can automatically destroy him with a simple Greater Turning. Of course he'll come back, but it is a very cheap way to get a week's time for dealing with his army without a CR 34 archwizard popping in.
Disciple of Darkness 08-31-03, 07:31 AM	These are all my opinions, posted here to defend my point of view. I was impressed, to say the least, that people actually bothered to post answers to my claim and that they DIDN'T lynch me. Everyone has a right to their own opinions, so long as they don't insult anyone with them (hint, hint - you still have no need to lynch me :D). originally posted by Savras: Larloch's first action- use his mental connection with his liches (see Greenwood's passage, above) and summon them all, asap. Then, quickened Timestop and so many defensive spells he can't be harmed, and *then*, as his Standard+ME actions, he wips out his artifact of chioce and uses it once. Round 2: Liches arrive outside of the spell's AoE, since Larloch told them (free action) where to teleport themselves. Note- Larloch would know, it has a visible manifistation and he has Spellcraft anyway. At least the LoD claims that Larloch has no such mental connection with his servitor liches and vampires, but you have a point there - Larloch should have at least Rary's telepathic bond cast on him and on his most trusted servants, so he could order them to appear to his aid. originally posted by Savras: So, we have 50 Epic liches and Larloch. That is where I heavily disagree - I don't think that there should be so many Epic undead wizards and sorcerers running around in the Realms. We already have a big number of Epic characters. I would say that almost all of Larloch's aides are 20th level, at most - maybe few of them have reached the Epic levels, but not many. originally posted by Savras: Also notice, assuming your PCs somehow prevented this and succeded killing Larloch. he is a lich. A week later (or less) he will return, rather vexed, and they will be the poorest, most miserable beings on Faeûn's surface, or, indeed, the most wreched souls to ever set foot on Abier-Toril. Any party who has reached Epic levels, thinks of challenging Larloch, and forgets that tiny bit of information about liches (that they simply reform in a matter of days, weeks at most), is so grossly stupid and/or over-confident that they should be destroyed from the face of Faerûn just to make sure that other adventurers learn from their mistakes.
Disciple of Darkness 08-31-03, 07:37 AM	originally posted by Israfel666: Larloch had only 20 HD plus the standard +4 lich turn resistance Actually, if you use Epic level handbook and upgrade Larloch to conform that book, he has 32 HD (if I remember correctly, he was 32nd level wizard) plus +4 standard lich turn resistance.
Maskanodel 08-31-03, 09:34 AM	Is Larloch in Lords of Darkness?
Gotrex 08-31-03, 10:21 AM	Larlochs liches would be epic level alot of them have been down there for ages and larloch has probably taught them a fair few of his secrets i dout even the chosen could break into larlochs crypt and kill him if they managed it i bet at least 3 of them would die in the process
Gryzlock 08-31-03, 12:16 PM	I have an insane idea. ;) It is written that Larloch probably spends most of his time in the tallest tower of his "castle". So why don't try to destroy this tower first. Most probably the tower has many defending spells, but I think it is possible to make it colapse. I don't even think that it would destroy Laarloch, but it could make some serious destructions (for example if some powerfull magic stuff would be destroyed in the tower - it could be really big BUM).
Disciple of Darkness 08-31-03, 01:17 PM	originally posted by Maskanodel: Is Larloch in Lords of Darkness? Yes, he is. There's even a picture of him and there's a list of his most commonly used magic items that he always carries with him (or something like that). He has full statistics there, too.
Savras 08-31-03, 01:49 PM	But it is not Epic as per Epic Handbook. WotC really needs to convert him... maybe taking out the stupid Delay Spell feat, unless they changed Timestop. Also, his tower, and tha entire Crypt, is gaurded akmost as well as Undermountain. Good luck with getting near enough to cast the spell, penetrating the defenses and succeding toppling his tower. O, and tell whichever god you'll end up with "Hy" for me, 'cause that's suicide. Savras
Aelreth 08-31-03, 03:59 PM	The only logical way in my opinion to "lure him out" would be to cast an epic version of Otilukes Resilient Sphere that is a few miles wide. Then get ahold of a 50 megaton nuclear weapon. Detonate the weapon. As for killing him I have no Idea but you would have his complete and undivided attention
Israfel666 08-31-03, 04:09 PM	Addition: if you somehow kill Larloch , yeah, he will return, but YOU get his heap of epic magic items and collection of Ioun Stones. Sure, he's got more, but all the things you collect will help you a lot. As for destroying his tower, your best shot is probably an Arcane Archer 2nd/Wizard X with a bow of Distant Shot or the feat of the same name (= no range increment penalty whatsoever for any distance). Cast Fly and get up into the air until you can see his tower from afar (at least a few miles). Imbue your arrow with an Acidic (= full damage to objects, bypasses hardness) Meteor Swarm or a similar spell, and fire it at the building (pretty easy AC since there is no distance penalty). Repeat as needed.
Pandelume 08-31-03, 04:26 PM	Trouble is that lichs that serve Larloch are all "Archwizard" of Netheril as well, So they are atleast over level 21 them selfs. As for the plague information I got it of this web page while I was researching Larloch a while ago. http://home1.inet.tele.dk/ihateyou/warlock/pages/larloch.htm
louissan 08-31-03, 05:49 PM	As for destroying his tower, your best shot is probably an Arcane Archer 2nd/Wizard X with a bow of Distant Shot or the feat of the same name (= no range increment penalty whatsoever for any distance). Cast Fly and get up into the air until you can see his tower from afar (at least a few miles). Imbue your arrow with an Acidic (= full damage to objects, bypasses hardness) Meteor Swarm or a similar spell, and fire it at the building (pretty easy AC since there is no distance penalty). Repeat as needed. No offense, but this awfully reeks of powergaming and min/maxing. That a player knows this, fine. But a character is a different matter... Not to mention that a simple permanent spell that turns back arrows to the original atatcker would be enough to counter this. Bye bye, arcan archer .... :D I think the spell is "Reverse arrows" from MoF ... and a guy like Larloch would surely have thought of a superior spell ... anyway, if your players think of something, assume Larloch has thought about it thousands of years ago already ... Cheers :)
Israfel666 08-31-03, 06:33 PM	Well, I think that a character does know that a) he can put a spell into an arrow and b) his bow is enchanted to fire at any distance. Plus, if you want to put down Larloch before three-digits level, of course you need min/maxing. You are right regarding "Reverse Arrows", though. Oh, well, there's always nice little Apocalypse from the Sky from the BoVD (corrupt spell, 20d6 damage in 1 mile/level radius). Too bad Larloch can probably use Greater Dispelling to counterspell it with ease...
louissan 08-31-03, 06:46 PM	Yup :D I meant Larloch is not to be taken out.
KRONOS 09-01-03, 03:53 AM	I am greatful for all the perspectives you guys are giving me on this story line. And I have alot of work to do before anything happens game wise. Pandelume- Thanks for the link to the Larlock info. That will be invaluable to me. :bow: Disciple of Darkness- I like the way you think. Thanks for the wisdom. Gryzlock- I could not help but smile at your tactics. You would be fun to DM for I think. Israfel666- The A. Archers would work well if you could dispell the protections. Good Idea! Aelreth- If you have a 50 megaton nuke, PLEASE do not show it to my players. :bigeyes: :D :D :D
The Simbul 09-01-03, 07:11 AM	Originally posted by Savras But it is not Epic as per Epic Handbook. WotC really needs to convert him... maybe taking out the stupid Delay Spell feat, unless they changed Timestop. Savras I had always wondered why nearly every Epic Faerunian spellcaser was given that god awful feat. In the Epic Level Handbook the Epic "revisions" of Elminster, The Simbul, and Halaster ALL have used an Epic feat slot for Delay Spell. Now at first I thought this was an incredibly stupid idea, like perhaps they were just looking for a random Metamagic feat to fill the slot with, and Delay happened to be at the top of an alphabetical list. But after the 3.5 changes to Timestop, Delay spell is argueably one of the most potent non-epic metamagic feats available. You could easily cast a number of Delayed instanaeous spells while under the effect of a Timestop, each being incrementally shorter in their delay so that they all take effect on the round the Timestop ends. If your DM (or you the DM) decide that the spellcaster should not have knowledge of the how long her random-duration spells will last (which is pretty much the normal rule anyway) then the spellcaster could resort to Maximize Spell, or a Rod of Greater Maximization to ensure they had a full 5 rounds to cast. It also bears nothing that Andy Collins is one of the authors for the FRCS and the ELH. The FRCS was the first printing of the Delay Spell feat (which had next to no use under the 3.0 rules) The Epic Level Handbook introduced the first set of "optional" DM modifications to Timestop, and that a number of spell changes in 3.5 and the suggestions for dealing with Time Stop were supposedly based off many of his tweaked House Rules. Thus when you put it all together it makes perfect sense, many of these characters were given the Delay Spell feat because the designers already knew they were going to alter Timestop, or they were already playtesting modified versions of it. So yes Larloch should keep that feat, especially if he doesnt take the Multispell feat.
The Sidekick 09-01-03, 09:32 AM	Where do you guys get all this info about Larloch? He seems like a cool guy.;)
Gryzlock 09-01-03, 10:20 AM	Originally posted by The Sidekick Where do you guys get all this info about Larloch? Everything seems to be in "Lord of Darkness".
Gellion 09-01-03, 04:58 PM	Larloch is nothing compared to the Outer Gods.:88E:
Ulmo 09-02-03, 12:02 AM	So, I admit, I've got none of my books with me, and it's been quite a while since i checked out Larloch's stats, but here's one way to try to kill him: 1. Wizards. Lots. High level. Have them get boulders. big ones. Then shrink them. As small as they can. Put shrunken boulders in bag of holding. They all cast fly, and make a bombing run over larloch's cozy little home. Using dispelling screens, the boulders are dumped all over Mr. Evil's compound, reverting into full size before they impact. I don't care what sort of DR you've got, that's still going to hurt. 2. As soon as the aerial bombarment has stopped, advance the army of min maxed clerics of lathander and kelemvor (high level as well, if not epic) (along with meatshield support) to the compound. 3. Another team of wizards and clerics who have spent the past year acertaining likely phylactery locations make their way there and eliminate the phylacteries as the assault begins. 4. The b-52s land and begin point defense. Dealing en masse with the survivors of the bombardment. 5. The air and land elements link up and begin a slow sweep of the compound. Clerics turn, Mages burn. and dispel. Meatshields die. Now this is all just a thought, and frankly, i'm not running at full capacity right now. But it seems to me that while, even if you don't succeed, you'll still give the fellow a nasty shock and perhaps weaken him.
Golem1972 09-02-03, 04:27 AM	Perhaps I'm just tired, but I think I've seen a few too many of these "Can I (or "How can") or my players take on / take out this (Generic Iconic NPC) and the usual "No way in heck can you even consider entertaining the remotest thought of annoying (Generic Iconic NPC) without you and everyone you know and all of your ancestors being erased from existance. I oughta take away your role playing books and give you an atomic wedgie just for thinking about it!" response. The simple fact is that everyone (in game or out) can die, and does die. Even the gods in these games die. If a suficently powerful party (this does not mean "hey I just got my first epic feat, lets take these tarraasque bones and make some god killing weapons") feels like taking on AO, let them. By then they will already have killed off all of the gods, tamed the planes, and exterminated everything remotely chanllenging. And the players will probably have been bored out of their minds by then, but heck, you nver know what some people will call fun. My groups don't usually make it into the epic levels, we advance kind of slowly and spend a bit of time doing non - CR/XP award stuff. However, isn't it possible (no matter how remote that possibility might be) that one of my groups (or some other groups) might just make it to the higher epic levels (40's or so) through gaming not powerbuilding? Could a band of say 8 epic red wizards with the goal of being universally acknowledged as the most powerful mages in existance have a realistic chance of making that goal a reality? I think the answer to both is yes. Let's please leave the powergaming/munchkin blaming parts out of this for all we know, the players could be doing this for roleplaying purposes (probably not) knowing that their characters don't stand a chance. Sorry for the rant, on to the topic. Unless your group is powerful enough to crush him like a bug, I'd have to agree that taking on this uberlich on his home ground is a really bad idea. But, taking on any powerful mage on his turf is a bad idea. Your best bet is to go with the "make him come to you idea". But, he will have foreseen just about anything your party will have come up with, and taken some preventitive measures against them. Even if these measures include allowing them to destroy a simulacrum of him. His intelligence will make him a very tough one to get rid of permanently.
rmilsop 09-02-03, 04:28 AM	so in answer to "Can my party kill larloch?" the answer is "not unless one of them is Lathander" :angel:
Disciple of Darkness 09-02-03, 05:39 AM	originally posted by KRONOS: Disciple of Darkness - I like the way you think. Thanks for the wisdom You're welcome - even though I had no idea that I had wisdom whatsoever. I just wrote a punch of ideas and tactics I would use if confronted with the situation "we must kill this undead bastard Larloch". :D
kedi 09-02-03, 10:03 AM	disciple of darkness and wisdom? thats a new:D j/k
Savras 09-02-03, 10:11 AM	Originally posted by Ulmo So, I admit, I've got none of my books with me, and it's been quite a while since i checked out Larloch's stats, but here's one way to try to kill him: I will try to disprove you: 1. Wizards. Lots. High level. Have them get boulders. big ones. Then shrink them. As small as they can. Put shrunken boulders in bag of holding. They all cast fly, and make a bombing run over larloch's cozy little home. Using dispelling screens, the boulders are dumped all over Mr. Evil's compound, reverting into full size before they impact. I don't care what sort of DR you've got, that's still going to hurt. The first flying Wiard will get nuked, as will any following one. Larloch (and his 60+ Netherese liches) gaurd themselves. They also use Divination, and I doubt their spell network would fail to stop boulders. 2. As soon as the aerial bombarment has stopped, advance the army of min maxed clerics of lathander and kelemvor (high level as well, if not epic) (along with meatshield support) to the compound. As I already said, armies aer hard to hide. 60+ liches and Larloch himself teleport in, kill as many as they can. When any of them reaches 50% of his HP, his contingency kicks in. No more army, no lich needs to use his phylactery. 3. Another team of wizards and clerics who have spent the past year acertaining likely phylactery locations make their way there and eliminate the phylacteries as the assault begins. Unless they are powerful enough to scry past the Shadow King's defenses, they do not succed. If they do know where it is, good luck passing the protections. 4. The b-52s land and begin point defense. Dealing en masse with the survivors of the bombardment. They do not land due to the spell web. When they do, the army of liches, the vampires and the *thousands* of lesser undead kill them. 5. The air and land elements link up and begin a slow sweep of the compound. Clerics turn, Mages burn. and dispel. Meatshields die. Now this is all just a thought, and frankly, i'm not running at full capacity right now. But it seems to me that while, even if you don't succeed, you'll still give the fellow a nasty shock and perhaps weaken him. I didn't quite get it, but I think your plan was countered. And if worst comes to worst, I think Tam owes him several favours... Savras
Savras 09-02-03, 10:16 AM	Golem, your PCs can kill Larloch- but they would have to be damn god-like. See, he is a major organization without setting foot out of his crypt. He can (as per Greenwood) take over the world. If you want your PCs to kill him, be my guest. But if you want to play him as you should (with Int higher than Bane's), then he will win. Anyway, in his hole he is just too well defended. Savras
kedi 09-02-03, 10:32 AM	well, please read LoD and than discuss, hes nearly a god. Hes more intelligent than bane, tempus, talos, sune, chaunte etc. He can make nearly perfect plans that has a little percent that can fail.
Gotrex 09-02-03, 12:49 PM	Golem its true that if you got larloch alone hes quite killable by a party of level 35+ PCs the thing that makes him almost imposible is his home is almost unpenatrable elminster is probably easier to kill than larloch, not because elminster is weaker then larloch but because it is 50x easier to break into shadowdale and attack elminster directly than it is to break into larlochs crypt and attack him directly btw savras excellent destruction of that plan to attack larloch :)
Israfel666 09-02-03, 03:31 PM	Here's a good test: if the characters manage to get to the second layer of Baator and slay Dispater in his citadel (inside of which he gets a +20 bonus to AC, attacks and saves), then they can probably also kill Larloch.
Savras 09-02-03, 03:43 PM	Originally posted by Gotrex btw savras excellent destruction of that plan to attack larloch :) http://www.geocities.com/sirgrimsage/Smilies/Savras9.txt Thanks! Savras
Israfel666 09-02-03, 06:31 PM	I think I have just found a neat little loophole which could help greatly in the task of "beating Larloch". One of the possible effects of Miracle (one of those with an XP cost, but it doesn't really matter) is: "Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error." Now, by liberal (read= absolutely despisable ruleslawyer's) interpretation: "You and your allies"= your army of high level clerics of Kelemvor and Lathander "Through planar barriers"= through Larloch's 16th-Heightened Permanent Dimensional Locks (they block planar travel, thus they can be called "planar") "To a specific locale with no chance of error"= to a place you have never seen or visited but only need to name, i.e. "Larloch's inner sanctum", and your god will get you there flawlessly. You have just bypassed those nasty high-level liches and vampire, not even triggering their divinations since you can cast the spell in all safety in a temple in Calimport or wherever. For a plus, once you meet Larloch with your teleported army, sacrifice another 5,000 xp and cast "Miracle" with the effect: "swinging the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting".
Savras 09-02-03, 07:40 PM	Nice one, Israfel. So, your army gets it, Larloch casts Quickened Teleport to his attic, gets some artifcats, calls on his army and destroyes yours. You resurruct your allies, they die again. Also, if worst comes to worst, he will abandon his hold, conquer a new dungeon and wage a guerilla war against you and whatever church was stupid enough to help you. And his guerilla tactics might be Wish- Destroy the main temple of {God's name here}, killing all in it. With his Int, it should come off just fine. Then again, he could sell some artifacts to the Zhents and orser Szass to haunt you as well, and this, combined with his 60+ liches, and ampires should do the tricks. He will then take all the bodies, re-animate them (regaining an armie of undead), return to his crypt, put up his defenses, regain all equipment your mates ruined with repeated Wishs (all from items- scrolls and rings), and get on with whatever it is he wants. Remember- *you* can't teleport around the Crypt. He can. Savras
Gotrex 09-02-03, 07:59 PM	Not to mention that teleporting an army in means you have about a 99.9% chance of teleporting people in directly on top of larlochs traps and such
Ulmo 09-02-03, 10:15 PM	Please note that when I say high level, I mean level 20 as the lower end of the spectrum. As powerful as larloch is, defeating a literal army of level 20+ spellcasters is nigh impossible. I'm not saying PCs should be able to waltz in and kill him, nor am I saying that the circumstanes needed to destroy him are possible in the FRCS. What I am saying, is that given the correct resources, my vague outline of a plan is a possible way to kill or injure Larloch and his minions. Also, three things in your refutation that seem problematic to me: 1. Larloch and his 60+ liches can't be in two places at once. While, yes, they can create simulacrums, etc., there's no reason my army can't do the same. So, Larloch and Co. will need to make a choice. 2. When I say, 'spend a year' divining the location of the phylacteries, I imply that nothing will be too valuable to sacrifice in the pursuit of that goal. Direct aid from a deity. The sorts of things that form a full adventure being merely one groups efforts to locate one phylactery. 3. Precisely, what spells will stop a falling boulder? Or for that matter, hundreds of them? While there are some, most are of short duration, a.o.e., or have other severe limitations built in. To suppose that these spells are constantly strikes me as being somewhat implausible. It would utilize too many resources and not be effective enough. One more note, you can't actually disprove me. If you actually took note of my introduction, I didn't set out to prove anything, instead I was merely putting out a suggestion, and you can't really disprove a suggestion.
kedi 09-03-03, 02:26 AM	Originally posted by Ulmo Please note that when I say high level, I mean level 20 as the lower end of the spectrum. As powerful as larloch is, defeating a literal army of level 20+ spellcasters is nigh impossible. I'm not saying PCs should be able to waltz in and kill him, nor am I saying that the circumstanes needed to destroy him are possible in the FRCS. What I am saying, is that given the correct resources, my vague outline of a plan is a possible way to kill or injure Larloch and his minions. Also, three things in your refutation that seem problematic to me: 1. Larloch and his 60+ liches can't be in two places at once. While, yes, they can create simulacrums, etc., there's no reason my army can't do the same. So, Larloch and Co. will need to make a choice. 2. When I say, 'spend a year' divining the location of the phylacteries, I imply that nothing will be too valuable to sacrifice in the pursuit of that goal. Direct aid from a deity. The sorts of things that form a full adventure being merely one groups efforts to locate one phylactery. 3. Precisely, what spells will stop a falling boulder? Or for that matter, hundreds of them? While there are some, most are of short duration, a.o.e., or have other severe limitations built in. To suppose that these spells are constantly strikes me as being somewhat implausible. It would utilize too many resources and not be effective enough. One more note, you can't actually disprove me. If you actually took note of my introduction, I didn't set out to prove anything, instead I was merely putting out a suggestion, and you can't really disprove a suggestion. :rofl: He knows ALL necromancy, enchantment and ilusions (PHB, FRCS, LoD, MoF etc) and some unique spells. 60+ liches under his control.... He has nearly build an undermountain of undead, and 4-7 thousands of lesser undeads, 1000+ greater undead and many slaves.. He has every non-artifact items, he can give them to liches to stop others. 60+ liches can't be in one place at once?!?! Why??!?! theyre Lorlochs servants, and nearly 40+ is always with him. It's really hard to kill a lich, very hard-nearly imposible to kill 30+ liches, imposible to kill all of them with lorloch leading them, uber-imposible to find all 150 phylacteries and destroy 'em. For god sake he has an 26th spellslot which means he can cast 17 epic level spells....a 20 level 20 int wizard even can't have that much 1st level slot. hes resistance to many energies like acid, electricity, cold, fire and magic; all of them. He has a huge number f SR. He has an int of 34. give up, hes invulnerable...
Herr Doktor 09-03-03, 03:37 AM	I'm tired and lazy so I'm not looking anything up... Now then, I believe you could probably defeat Larloch with the help of that one fellow... what was his name... the creeping doom? Or something of that sort. I believe he could create dead magic areas, which might be incredibly handy against spell slinging liches. Now just figure out how to convince him to aid you.
kedi 09-03-03, 03:46 AM	well thats a good idea but what's lorloch doing while creeping doom casts antimagic field?
rmilsop 09-03-03, 06:12 AM	Laughing. No wait, make that laughing and pointing. I've never heard of Larloch (save for Larloch's Minor Drain :D ) but now I wanna find out everything I can about him just for the sake of it.
Savras 09-03-03, 06:31 AM	Originally posted by kedi well thats a good idea but what's lorloch doing while creeping doom casts antimagic field? I'd imiagine he either counterspells, then follows with Devastate Undead (if the Creeping Doom has less than 32 HD), or any other useful spell. If he cant counterspell and a Quickened Disjunction doesn't do the trick, and the Creeping Doom reaches him, he will walk bakwords (2 ME, walking as far as he can), ge out of the field, summnon the 60+ liches, 60+ Disjunction, bye-bye Antimagic field, hello slaughter. And Ulmo- what god will be stupid enough to attack Larloch? He is not worth the trouble- he just sits there and does nothing. Attacking him might be counter productive. And when did I say they are in two places at one time? Regardless, just split the liches in the best way possible, that what he'd do. And you know what- lets say your boulders work. The buildings can be fixed, and are unlikely to succumb to that. No one else is out side except wierd flying creatures, which will just fly into a building. Savras
Herr Doktor 09-03-03, 09:15 AM	The Creeping Doom has 62 HD. Here are his stats: Daurgothoth: Male black great wyrm dracolich Wiz20/Acm5; CR 49; Gargantuan undead (Water); HD 37d12 plus 25d4, hp 302; Init +0; Spd 60 ft., swim 60 ft., fly 200 ft. (clumsy); AC 44 (touch 6, flat-footed 44); Atk +59 melee (4d6+13 plus 1d6 cold plus paralyzing touch, bite) and +57 melee (2d8+6 plus 1d6 cold plus paralyzing touch, 2 claws) and +57 melee (2d6+6, 2 wings) and +57 melee (2d8+19, tail slap); Face/Reach 20 ft. x 40 ft./15 ft.; SA Arcane fire, breath weapon (120-ft. line of acid, 24d4), control undead, paralyzing gaze, paralyzing touch, spell-like abilities, spells, tail sweep; SQ Arcane reach, blindsight 360 ft., charm reptiles, corrupt water, dracolich traits, flight, invulnerability, keen senses, mastery of elements, mastery of shaping, spell power +1, spell resistance 31, undead traits, water breathing; AL CE; SV Fort +32, Ref +32, Will +37; Str 37, Dex 10, Con --, Int 23, Wis 21, Cha 22. Skills and Feats: Alchemy +41, Bluff +16, Climb +19, Concentration +37, Diplomacy +47, Escape Artist +37, Hide -12, Intimidate +45, Jump +19, Knowledge (arcana) +43, Knowledge (history) +43, Knowledge (nature) +43, Knowledge (planes) +43, Knowledge (religion) +43, Listen +42, Scry +43, Search +43, Sense Motive +11, Spellcraft +45, Spot +42, Swim +21, Wilderness Lore +23; Brew Potion, Cleave, Combat Casting, Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, Flyby Attack , Forge Ring, Great Cleave, Hover, Multiattack, Power Attack, Scribe Scroll , Silent Spell, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Snatch, Spell Focus (Abjuration), Spell Focus (Evocation), Spell Focus (Necromancy), Spell Focus (Transmutation), Spell Penetration, Still Spell, Sunder, Wingover. Arcane Fire (Su): Daurgothoth can channel arcane spell energy into arcane fire, manifesting as a bolt of raw magical energy. The bolt is a ranged touch attack with long range (600 feet) that deals 5d6 points of damage plus 1d6 points of damage per level of the spell channeled to create the effect. Breath Weapon (Su): Daurgothoth can breathe a 120-foot line of acid that deals 24d4 points of acid damage (Reflex save DC 28 halves). Once he breathes, he must wait 1d4 rounds before he can do so again. Control Undead (Sp): Once per 3 days, Daurgothoth can use control undead as a 15th-level sorcerer. He cannot cast other spells while this ability is in effect. Paralyzing Gaze (Su): The gaze of Daurgothoth's glowing eyes can paralyze each victim within 40 feet who fails a Will save (DC 34). If the save is successful, that creature is forever immune to Daurgothoth's gaze. If it fails, the victim is paralyzed for 2d6 rounds. Paralyzing Touch (Su): A creature struck by any of Daurgothoth's physical attacks must make a Fort save (DC 34) or be paralyzed for 2d6 rounds. A successful saving throw against this effect does not confer any immunity against subsequent attacks. Spell-like Abilities (Sp): 3/day -- darkness (120 feet), insect plague; 1/day -- plant growth. Caster level 20th; save DC 16 + spell level. Spells: In addition to his wizard spells, Daurgothoth knows and casts spells as a 15th-level sorcerer. Tail Sweep: Daurgothoth can sweep with his tail as a standard action. The sweep affects a half-circle with a diameter of 30 feet, centered on his rear. Creatures within the area that are four or more size categories smaller than Daurgothoth are affected. The sweep deals 2d6+19 points of damage plus 1d6 points of cold damage plus paralyzing touch. An affected creature can attempt a Reflex save (DC 28) to take half damage. Arcane Reach: Daurgothoth can use touch spells on targets up to 30 feet away. If a spell requires a touch attack (melee or ranged), the archmage must make a ranged touch attack. Blindsight (Ex): Daurgothoth can maneuver and fight by nonvisual means (mostly hearing and scent, but also by noticing vibrations and other environmental clues). Invisibility and darkness are irrelevant, though he still can't discern ethereal beings. Daurgothoth's blindsight is effective to a range of 360 feet. He usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice creatures within range of his blindsight ability. Charm Reptiles (Sp): Three times per day, Daurgothoth can produce an effect identical to that of a mass charm spell, except that it works only on reptilian animals. He can communicate with any charmed reptiles as though casting a speak with animals spell. Corrupt Water (Sp): Once per day, Daurgothoth can stagnate 10 cubic feet of water, making it become still, foul, and unable to support animal life. This ability spoils liquids containing water. Magic items (such as potions) and items in a creature's possession must succeed at a Will save (DC 33) or become fouled. Dracolich Traits: Daurgothoth is immune to cold, electricity, paralysis, polymorph, and sleep effects. Like a skeleton, he takes only half damage from piercing and slashing weapons. He has low-light vision. Flight (Su): Daurgothoth now flies without the aid of his bony wings. Invulnerability: If Daurgothoth is slain, his spirit immediately returns to its phylactery, a black opal of insignificant size. If there is no reptilian corpse within 90 feet for his spirit to possess, it is trapped within the phylactery until such a time that a corpse becomes available. If his spirit is in its phylactery, destroying that item when a suitable corpse is not within range effectively destroys him. Likewise, Daurgothoth is unable to attempt further possessions if his phylactery is destroyed. Keen Senses (Ex): Daurgothoth sees four times as well as a human in low-light conditions and twice as well in normal light. He also has darkvision (120-foot range). Mastery of Elements: Daurgothoth can alter an arcane spell when cast so that it utilizes a different element from the one it normally does. This ability can alter only spells with the acid, cold, fire, electricity, or sonic descriptors. The spell's casting time is unaffected. Daurgothoth decides whether or not to alter the spell's energy type and chooses the new energy type when he begins casting. Mastery of Shaping: Daurgothoth can alter area and effect spells that use the following categories: burst, cone, cylinder, emanation, or special. The alteration consists of creating spaces in the spell's area or effect that are not subject to the spell. The minimum dimension for these spaces is a 5-foot cube. Furthermore, any shapeable (S) spells have a minimum dimension of 5 feet instead of 10 feet. Spell Power +1: This ability increases the DC for the saving throws against Daurgothoth's arcane spells and caster level checks for his arcane spells to overcome spell resistance by +1 (already included in save DCs below). Undead Traits: Daurgothoth is immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death, effects, necromantic effects, mind-influencing effects, and any effect requiring a Fortitude save unless it also works on objects. He is not subject to critical hits, subdual damage, ability damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Negative energy heals him, and he is not at risk of death from massive damage but is destroyed at 0 hit points or less (but see invulnerability above). Daurgothoth cannot be raised, and resurrection works only if he is willing. Water Breathing (Su): Daurgothoth can breathe underwater indefinitely and can freely use his breath weapon, spells, and other abilities while submerged. Sorcerer Spells Known (6/8/8/7/7/6/6/5/5/5; base DC = 17 + spell level or 19 + spell level for Abjuration, Evocation, Necromancy, and Transmutation spells): 0 -- arcane mark, detect magic, disrupt undead, light, mage hand, mending, open/close, prestidigitation, read magic; 1st -- alarm, comprehend languages, mage armor, shield, ventriloquism; 2nd -- alter self, arcane lock, bull's strength, cat's grace, detect thoughts; 3rd -- dispel magic, haste, nondetection, vampiric touch; 4th -- charm monster, detect scrying, improved invisibility, scrying; 5th -- cloudkill, dominate person, major creation, nightmare; 6th -- analyze dweomer, move earth, true seeing; 7th -- prismatic spray, teleport without error, vision; 8th -- demand, discern location, mind blank; 9th -- foresight, Mordenkainen's disjunction, wish. Wizard Spells Prepared (4/6/6/5/5/5/5/4/4/4; base DC = 17 + spell level or 19 + spell level for Abjuration, Evocation, Necromancy, or Transmutation spells): 0 -- dancing lights, daze, mage hand, ray of frost; 1st -- change self, color spray (2), grease, hold portal, magic missile; 2nd -- blindness/deafness, fog cloud, locate object, Melf's acid arrow, see invisibility, Tasha's hideous laughter; 3rd -- fireball, hold person, protection from elements, sleet storm, suggestion; 4th -- Evard's black tentacles (2), polymorph other, polymorph self, wall of ice; 5th -- animate dead, cone of cold, hold monster, teleport, transmute rock to mud; 6th -- acid fog, circle of death, disintegrate, globe of invulnerability, mass suggestion; 7th -- ethereal jaunt, finger of death, forcecage, project alternate image; 8th -- bonemelt, mass charm, protection from spells, summon monster VIII; 9th -- meteor swarm, shapechange, temporal stasis, wail of the banshee. Spellbook: 0 -- arcane mark, dancing lights, daze, detect magic, detect poison, disrupt undead, flare, ghost sound, light, mage hand, mending, open/close, prestidigitation, ray of frost, read magic, resistance; 1st -- cause fear, change self, chill touch, color spray, grease, hold portal, identify, magic missile, ray of enfeeblement, shocking grasp; 2nd -- blindness/deafness, fog cloud, ghoul touch, knock, locate object, Melf's acid arrow, scare, see invisibility, spectral hand, Tasha's hideous laughter; 3rd -- fireball, gentle repose, halt undead, hold person, invisibility sphere, lightning bolt, protection from elements, sleet storm, suggestion; 4th -- contagion, enervation, Evard's black tentacles, fear, ice storm, minor globe of invulnerability, polymorph other, polymorph self, stoneskin, wall of ice; 5th -- animate dead, cone of cold, fabricate, hold monster, major creation, permanency, teleport, transmute rock to mud, wall of force; 6th -- acid fog, antimagic field, chain lightning, circle of death, disintegrate, flesh to stone, globe of invulnerability, mass suggestion, programmed image; 7th -- delayed blast fireball, ethereal jaunt, finger of death, forcecage, greater scrying, plane shift, prismatic spray, project alternate image, spell turning; 8th -- antipathy, bonemelt, etherealness, horrid wilting, mass charm, Otiluke's telekinetic sphere, prismatic wall, protection from spells, summon monster VIII, trap the soul; 9th -- astral projection, meteor swarm, power word, kill, prismatic sphere, shapechange, temporal stasis, time stop, wail of the banshee. Languages: Alzhedo, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Loross, Netherese, Roushoum. Possessions: Countless coins worth approximately 200,000 gp in total, countless varieties of gems worth approximately 850,000 gp in total, various art objects worth approximately 50,000 gp in total, a darkskull, a dragonskull talisman (detailed in Magic of Faerûn), iron bands of Bilarro, a hand of the mage, an orb of storms, a portable hole, a ring of evasion, a rod of metal and mineral detection, a mirror of mental prowess, a staff of the magi (fully charged), a rod of lordly might, a wand of fireball (10th-level caster), a staff of power (fully charged), a holy avenger, celestial armor, an absorbing shield, a dwarven thrower, numerous wizard spellbooks, a ring of spell turning, and a torque of the titans (detailed in Magic of Faerûn). Dungeon Masters should feel free to add in epic level items from the forthcoming Epic Level Handbook in place of several other items when the Epic Level Handbook comes out. They're 3rd Edition (not 3.5) but that should give you some idea of this beasts strength. I think that if anyone could crunch Larloch, it'd be him.
Herr Doktor 09-03-03, 09:15 AM	(SPACE FOR RENT)
Shavit 09-03-03, 09:22 AM	that's funny.....attack Larloch by a army of epic levels of everything......WRONG.....not enough people in epic level that will want to destroy him, probably you'll be considered mad or stupied. attacking Larloch? you'll need to finish his lichwhat's that thing and then kill him or kill him and the and then the bloody thing....WRONG....if you try one of them you'll never make it to the secondery goal.... Boulders? hehehehe.......why not cakes? Turning? hehehehe......new undead traits Burning? hehehe........make me a pie Tower destoying? what if he when to the bathroom or just left for a second? Luring him out? not stupied.....his mama grounded him you go in and play! HE IS POWER AT BAY, A BROKEN CHARACTER, A FORCE NOT MEANT TO BE PLAYED OR VIEWED......just forget about him will you?
kedi 09-03-03, 09:45 AM	Originally posted by Shavit that's funny.....attack Larloch by a army of epic levels of everything......WRONG.....not enough people in epic level that will want to destroy him, probably you'll be considered mad or stupied. attacking Larloch? you'll need to finish his lichwhat's that thing and then kill him or kill him and the and then the bloody thing....WRONG....if you try one of them you'll never make it to the secondery goal.... Boulders? hehehehe.......why not cakes? Turning? hehehehe......new undead traits Burning? hehehe........make me a pie Tower destoying? what if he when to the bathroom or just left for a second? Luring him out? not stupied.....his mama grounded him you go in and play! HE IS POWER AT BAY, A BROKEN CHARACTER, A FORCE NOT MEANT TO BE PLAYED OR VIEWED......just forget about him will you? :bow: a reasonable man atlast! bugger off people, hes invincible
Ulmo 09-03-03, 09:55 AM	bugger off people, hes invincible Truly, you've mastered both the English language and the art of debate. My point here is not that Larloch is weak, or your PCs should be able to kill him, it's that while yes, Larloch is uber-powerful, and quite arguably broken, I don't see how that stops someone else from using (or abusing) the system in the same ways. I don't think Larloch should be killed or attacked or even involved in a campaign, but then I wasn't the one who brought up the topic.
Pandelume 09-03-03, 10:36 AM	I think if casters starting casting anti-magic zones it would **** of Mystra..... I have came up with a way to kill Larloch get the Sharn to do it. :) Of course it would as hard to get the Sharn to attack Larloch as killing Larloch your self. :D But for plan B you could get the Shades to attack Larloch....
Aelreth 09-03-03, 12:06 PM	I'll bet that his entire crypt is loaded with Heightened wails of the banshee set to go off if any living creature enters it. You teleport in I would guess you would accidentally set off a dozen Wail of the Banshee traps
Gotrex 09-03-03, 01:51 PM	Pandelume you have a good point the sharn could probably do it (but then the sharn could probably kill anything on faerun) though i dout they ever would
Israfel666 09-03-03, 02:08 PM	Oh, what about Alratan's idea? A cleric of Lathander with a bead of summoning could summon the avatar of Lathander and let him use his Undead Mastery SDA (kill any undead, no saving throw, no SR, nothing). Lathander's a bit of a hot head (cough... dawn cataclysm... cough...) so he will be very likely to take immediate action once he sees that citadel of undead.
Shavit 09-03-03, 02:12 PM	Lets sum it up shell we (I) (not to close the topic but to give my opinion for up to now) All the iconic\symbolic\novel-heroes that were before the 3rd edition should have been declared as POWER-AT-BAY by WotC why? 3rd edition made them more bugs then every mircosoft producte put togather and then the EPIC before there were really epic levels made them a living hell of errors! now pepole are going Search 'N' Destroy on Larloch's back-side? pepole really now it's time to say: NAY! NO running in Larloch's halls! or even thinking of it! NO smoking Elminister's pipes or replace them with GRASS! NO shagging the Symbul just to **** Elmenister off NO drinking and driving you might spill your buzz.....oops wrong forum :D NO "You Ao you're ***!" ok? I say that as a DM leave the power at bay AT BAY! That does it Till next time see you all icq 123033533 Shavit, Israel
Nightingale 7 09-03-03, 03:49 PM	Guys forget it.There is NO way to permanently eradicate Larloch in his crypt without divine intervention.And someone mentioned the Creeping Doom?He is MUCH easier to deal with than Larloch. Believe me,Creeping Doom's strength is an illusion.Of course his challenge rating is higher than Larloch's,but he is effectively a 20 level sorcerer and a 25 level wizard,and those classes don't mesh well with one another.He would have big problems getting a spell through Larloch's SR.If the dracolich tried to storm Warlock's Crypt then Larloch would calmly send a lich servant of his to cast Imprisonment on him,and that's all,since his touch AC as a dragon is laughable and he doesn't have SR.
Gotrex 09-03-03, 03:56 PM	the main thing that makes the creeping doom strong is he is one of the few things in faerun capable of making dead magic zones which he can place onto of casters rendering them useless
Gellion 09-03-03, 04:33 PM	You mean you are not supposed to kill Larloch?:confused: Oops.:embarrass
Gellion 09-03-03, 04:35 PM	100th post on this thread.:D
Savras 09-03-03, 05:02 PM	Originally posted by Gotrex the main thing that makes the creeping doom strong is he is one of the few things in faerun capable of making dead magic zones which he can place onto of casters rendering them useless He can create Dead Magic Zones? How? *Goes to re-read the Creeping Doom's stats* Nope, nothing I can see. Hmm... while Keid's and Shavit's posts are rather hot-headed, I must say I agree with them. Larloch, tha Shadow King, is indeed a power-that-be. And, to tell you the truth, I ain't sure the Twelve Princes of Shade+ the High Prince can beat him. Savras
Triton 09-03-03, 06:48 PM	This should be an uber campaign for GenCon.
Charles Phipps 09-03-03, 07:14 PM	Its in the cards for my group to destroy Larloch.... Basically we've decided to run "Die Vecna Die" and all the Vecna adventures (see my conversion thread in a bit) with Larloch replaced by Vecna. Die Larloch Die will be about how Larloch absorbs the god Velsharoon who was actually his key to absorbing the Shadow Weave and Weave and thus preparing to become a being so powerful that none of the gods can stop him. However even as he casts down Midnight as a mortal and prepares his rituals to kill the gods one at a time as he begins to rewrite the Multiverse (Asmodeus helped him in this dig and probably some other nasties) The Players come rushing in with Midnight, steal back her power AND the Shadow Weave and suddenly Larloch is a 42nd level wizard WITHOUT spells and even then may just crumble to dust without the Weave supporting him :-)
kedi 09-03-03, 08:27 PM	Originally posted by Savras He can create Dead Magic Zones? How? *Goes to re-read the Creeping Doom's stats* Nope, nothing I can see. Hmm... while Keid's and Shavit's posts are rather hot-headed, I must say I agree with them. Larloch, tha Shadow King, is indeed a power-that-be. And, to tell you the truth, I ain't sure the Twelve Princes of Shade+ the High Prince can beat him. Savras He is the one of the greatest wizard ever. CR is equal to elminster. True that the whole princes can'T beat him
LordHell 09-04-03, 12:29 AM	I have to disagree with most of the people here - some of you are defending Larloch as if he is your hero. I am a DM of some experiance (around approximately 10 years), mainly of AD&D 1st and 2nd Edition. I do have a weakness in this discussion, and that is while I am reasonably competent with 3rd Edition, I am only slightly competent with 3.5 edition and epic levels, and Larloch himself. My comments 1) Nothing, or no one, is indestructable. Not even gods. 2) While it is highly unlikely my PCs would ever reach the levels required to take on Larloch it could happen, and I think many of you over-estimate his power, he has been around for 2000 years? So what, so have a few elves and dragons - and they most definately arn't "indestructable" 3) Following on from my last comment, I believe getting above 20th level to be extremely rare at best. If a whole party of PC's were to make it this far then they too deserve some respect. 4) He is still a Lich at the end of the day, and being undead carries weakness along with the improvements, don't forget this. 5) It is quite possible that high level PC's can make themselves almost immune to magic - his greatest asset. 6) It is also quite possible that high level PC's can make themselves immune to divinitation. 7) Lich's and undead arn't that incredably tough once you know how to deal with them. For example if this was 2nd edition, 30 clerics armed with a few sunray scrolls could eliminate thousands of undead that didn't have SR. (Or MR as it was back then). 8) A party of 6 - 25-30th PC's can take on foes that are upwards of 30th level. At this stage it's not really the levels that matter, it's the items you have. 9) PC's that are in this range are getting incredably powerful themselves, and quite possibly have the best magical weapons available if not a few artifacts too! 10) His Intelligence might be 32, but some PC's might also have massively high intelligence by this stage. Also 6 heads are better than one, and for all his intelligence, what's his wisdom!? 11) He has taken 2000 years to advance to level 32, whereas the PC's have taken at most 50 years to advance to level 25-30, who is the greater threat here? 12) He may be SR to the teeth, but he is still vulnerable to AOE spells such as earthquake and what not. It is possible he can use spells and such to perhaps avoid the effects (Fly, etc) but this is still something that can be exploited. 13) High level PC's should be able to Gate in extremely potent allies to help in their aid such as celestials and what not, who can quite possibly rip through armies of undead by themselves. I think defeating him wouldn't be impossible, you guys are forgetting that a party over the level of 25 would be one of the most powerful groups in all of Faerun, with some of the most powerful items at their disposal too! Killing him (there is a difference) would be something different however - but killing them wouldn't be easy either. You can't just say "he teleports in 60 Liches and wastes them". By the time the PC's are at least level 25 most of them would be highly resistant to just about anything magical that Lichs could throw at them anyway. It is similar to when you reach 10th level, no amount of Orcs are going to hurt you and you can wipe them out en-mass. Without their magical protections, normal Lichs are extremely slow and weak. Your average party of 14th level characters can kill an average Lich, I'm sorry, I don't see 60 or even 600 Lichs doing much harm to a 25th+ level party. By this stage of the game it's all about force multipliers and not numbers anyway - in which the PC's will have PLENTY. I think it would end up a stalemate - at these levels, no one dies easily. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Now having said that, I do believe any DM would not let such characters as Larloch, Elminster, the Simbul, or even Drizzt be killed by a party of PC's, because despite these characters being benchmarks in the Forgotten Realms, they are more importantly the pillars in which the Realms sit upon. Also while Epic level adventures can be fun, I personally think that the PC's should find their challanges outside the prime material plane instead of wanting to pick off legendary figures around the realms. As an idea for your characters however, I suggest this: An Arch-Vampire of Larlochs has been spying on the PC's (such a powerful group would not go unnoticed) and actually captures the PCs before they make it near Larloch. Knowing Larloch will just slay them , this vampire wants to have a bit of fun and puts them in a horrible maze full of tricks, riddles, and traps, and full of wild magic and dead magic zones - with NO items, food, or water, and for his amusement watches their futile efforts to try and escape (without informing Larloch of course, he wants to have some fun). If the PCs look like they're about to escape he takes them on. Make him suitablely powerful to challange them (maybe a 25th level fighter with some nifty vampire abilities), but not too powerful as the PC's wont have many magical items (unless you want to litter the maze with them). After escaping with barely their lives, and only just surviving one of Larlochs SERVANTS, and also aware that Larloch is onto them - they might just think twice. If they don't, well, you DID give them a warning. :) Also I never mentioned anything about returning their items...
Charles Phipps 09-04-03, 01:09 AM	At epic levels your allowed to come up with whacky stuff. Maybe for instance the PCs might come up with a 9th level spell "Kill Larloch" Which is designed specifically to keep his soul from escaping and specifically kill HIM of all people Or maybe they have an artifact that drags a person from a location circumstances change folk A 360 IQ is unfathomable but Stephen Hawkins doesn't probably imagine lunatics trying to take him out when he's working on his next equation
kedi 09-04-03, 02:40 AM	Who se simbul? a CL 23 and 10 sorcerer/wiz Who s el? CL 27 old skunk Who s szass? an stinky lich Who s lorloch? an arcanist lived for 2000 years, positively not stupid, int 34 better than some gods including bhaal, bane, tempus, sune, chauntae, talos and so on, a lich without regular weaknesses, talisman of orcus, SRs, and many resistanceç He has every single item that isn't artþfact, and he has many artifacts. He can cast 17 epic level spells /day! he knows every crafted spell and some unique spells. youre cursing him if a four pc party level 25-30 could kill this guy. CR 39 and ECL is bigger..he is though and really though
Shavit 09-04-03, 03:46 AM	1) Nothing, or no one, is indestructable. Not even gods. Ok.....so you can kill gods BUT no in there homeplane (see sneak and kill Larloch in his crypt 2) While it is highly unlikely my PCs would ever reach the levels required to take on Larloch it could happen, and I think many of you over-estimate his power, he has been around for 2000 years? So what, so have a few elves and dragons - and they most definately arn't "indestructable" hmmm.....ok 3) Following on from my last comment, I believe getting above 20th level to be extremely rare at best. If a whole party of PC's were to make it this far then they too deserve some respect. yes....so does Larloch for his achivment 4) He is still a Lich at the end of the day, and being undead carries weakness along with the improvements, don't forget this. very few weakness that can be exploited to kill him 5) It is quite possible that high level PC's can make themselves almost immune to magic - his greatest asset. of a couple of rounds....but he still benfit from magic in this rounds and might just cast on self 6) It is also quite possible that high level PC's can make themselves immune to divinitation. so he won't go out to the trap....big deal...he is not stupied 7) Lich's and undead arn't that incredably tough once you know how to deal with them. For example if this was 2nd edition, 30 clerics armed with a few sunray scrolls could eliminate thousands of undead that didn't have SR. (Or MR as it was back then). Lich's and undead ok.....but an undead with levels? never fought one 8) A party of 6 - 25-30th PC's can take on foes that are upwards of 30th level. At this stage it's not really the levels that matter, it's the items you have. you're shooting your own leg...he has it all (ALL MAGIC ITEMS and few ARTIFACTS) and can equip his troops with it 9) PC's that are in this range are getting incredably powerful themselves, and quite possibly have the best magical weapons available if not a few artifacts too! see last comment 10) His Intelligence might be 32, but some PC's might also have massively high intelligence by this stage. Also 6 heads are better than one, and for all his intelligence, what's his wisdom!? no argue but i can't see your point either 11) He has taken 2000 years to advance to level 32, whereas the PC's have taken at most 50 years to advance to level 25-30, who is the greater threat here? it's not 2000 years to 32 since many years of rest in the crypt....and this has nothing to do with nothing.....so it took them 50? no 1 year so what? 12) He may be SR to the teeth, but he is still vulnerable to AOE spells such as earthquake and what not. It is possible he can use spells and such to perhaps avoid the effects (Fly, etc) but this is still something that can be exploited. nice....but not that exploitive or helpful in killing him 13) High level PC's should be able to Gate in extremely potent allies to help in their aid such as celestials and what not, who can quite possibly rip through armies of undead by themselves. no gating in without my promission ok? I think defeating him wouldn't be impossible, you guys are forgetting that a party over the level of 25 would be one of the most powerful groups in all of Faerun, with some of the most powerful items at their disposal too! and he has the most powerful army in standby and all magical items avalible in the stores Killing him (there is a difference) would be something different however - but killing them wouldn't be easy either. You can't just say "he teleports in 60 Liches and wastes them". By the time the PC's are at least level 25 most of them would be highly resistant to just about anything magical that Lichs could throw at them anyway. It is similar to when you reach 10th level, no amount of Orcs are going to hurt you and you can wipe them out en-mass. Without their magical protections, normal Lichs are extremely slow and weak. Your average party of 14th level characters can kill an average Lich, I'm sorry, I don't see 60 or even 600 Lichs doing much harm to a 25th+ level party. By this stage of the game it's all about force multipliers and not numbers anyway - in which the PC's will have PLENTY. hmmmm....a casual hit that will drain levels 1\60? and this aren't brainless dead.... I think it would end up a stalemate - at these levels, no one dies easily. Agreed no one dies easily....but some might die quickly.... believe it or not i think he could get killed and skinned alive but i keep finding what i would do to counter....untill now i can't see a way of killing him altough i agree with you that there is a way surely.
kedi 09-04-03, 04:36 AM	34 int and 20 plus wisdom
kedi 09-04-03, 04:42 AM	I don't see 60 or even 600 Lichs doing much harm to a 25th+ level party.:rofl::rofl: look, 60 lich's avarage lvl is 20-25. so how come a group 25plus level can kill 25 plus level liches? dont be ridiculus.
Charles Phipps 09-04-03, 05:12 AM	Kill dozens of orcs.... Dumb stupid luck and funny dice. Leave it to the Epic Mage to make a "Undead Blast Bomb" The priest to manufacture dozens of holy hand grenades, Sun swords, and Sunray armor for the humans and even the 1st levels are going to kick some serious ass Especially if you have a magic artifact like the Cat of Felovich (which prevents vampires from turning into mist and thus they just DIE when reduced to 0 HP) for liches
Alratan 09-04-03, 05:25 AM	Another way of killing Larloch: Use the epic spells built from the forsee seed to locate Larloch's phylactery - note that Larloch can not defend against this by any means, as forsee has personal range, and questions are always answered with 90% accuracy. Make your fighter and his equipment immune to the effects of antimagic field and the dispell spells using the ward seed, and then having an item which gives permanent antimagic field, and to have your casters shapeshift into Mithril Golems and have the feat Permanent Emanation (Antimagic Field) and Multispell twice. You can then walk in. The fighters magic equipment functions normally but they are completly immune to any outside magical effects, and your casters can lower their antimagic fields at the beginning of their rounds and raise them at the ends. Open a Gate as close as possible to the location of the phylactery, if it is in possession of a creature compel them to step through the gate if close enough. Give a rogue lots of scrolls of MD and buff his wisdom with epic spells until he can't fail the save - then MD your way towards the phylactery. When you get there, open a gate to the very edge of a dead magic zone you have previously fortified and use telekinesis to throw it through the gate. Proceed to immediatly attack Larloch. An other tactic is to use at this point is to use my previous suggestion but replace dead magic zone with an epic spell developed from a new seed based on antimagic field which you have vastly increased the area of.
Israfel666 09-04-03, 05:47 AM	This would not kill Larloch, but it would be immensely fun. Make a custom spell that creates a screen which turns water into holy water. Take an oversized decanter of endless water, and cover it in the most powerful abjurations you can cast (an epic anti-divination spell would be ok). Cast the screen just out of the decanter's mouth, hide it near Warlock's Crypt, and activate it. Result= Warlock's Holy Lake = zombies and skeletons PUFF!! :D
kedi 09-04-03, 06:32 AM	Originally posted by Alratan Another way of killing Larloch: Use the epic spells built from the forsee seed to locate Larloch's phylactery - note that Larloch can not defend against this by any means, as forsee has personal range, and questions are always answered with 90% accuracy. Make your fighter and his equipment immune to the effects of antimagic field and the dispell spells using the ward seed, and then having an item which gives permanent antimagic field, and to have your casters shapeshift into Mithril Golems and have the feat Permanent Emanation (Antimagic Field) and Multispell twice. You can then walk in. The fighters magic equipment functions normally but they are completly immune to any outside magical effects, and your casters can lower their antimagic fields at the beginning of their rounds and raise them at the ends. Open a Gate as close as possible to the location of the phylactery, if it is in possession of a creature compel them to step through the gate if close enough. Give a rogue lots of scrolls of MD and buff his wisdom with epic spells until he can't fail the save - then MD your way towards the phylactery. When you get there, open a gate to the very edge of a dead magic zone you have previously fortified and use telekinesis to throw it through the gate. Proceed to immediatly attack Larloch. An other tactic is to use at this point is to use my previous suggestion but replace dead magic zone with an epic spell developed from a new seed based on antimagic field which you have vastly increased the area of. that's cool, lets search his aaaaal 150 phylacteries
Disciple of Darkness 09-04-03, 07:09 AM	Why is it that when someone suggests a course of action that might harm or destroy Larloch (even if only his current body), people seem to get so annoyed and furious that you could very easily expect to see an angry balor writing their messages. As Charles Phipps pointed out, nothing is indestructable - not even the gods (not even in my own divine system, I upgraded DSA quite a bit and gave gods many more levels (eg Cyric is rogue 20/asassin 20/illusionist 20/perfect wight 10/cleric 15/divine seeker 5)). Anything that has stats can be destroyed. Larloch is not invincible, he can be utterly destroyed. It will not be easy, unless you are at insanely high levels, but he can be destroyed. And don't get so excited about his Intelligence score - a PC wizard could achieve the same score also. (BTW, I'm quite happy that it was Savras who answered to my post - he's calm enough to avoid mocking people and that stuff and intelligent enough to know when there's no reason to argue because you feel like it. Keep up the good work, O Lord of Divination :D)
Nightingale 7 09-04-03, 08:04 AM	Disciple,I don't believe that Larloch cannot be beaten,or even utterly destroyed.Everyone can be beaten in some way or another.The thing is that to actually accomplish this you have to be a VERY high level party,by which I mean 50+,having items custom made for this challenge,having created custom epic spells to specifically target this situation,and also construct a VERY efficient plan.All this just to have a fair chance at this,and be prepared to wing things along the way,since Larloch should have some countermeasures.I have no problem with such a situation.What i have problem with though is that group that just because they reached 21st level they can just barge in the stronghold of any major FR villain and kill them with no problems!
louissan 09-04-03, 08:28 AM	Killing Larloch? Easy! Bribe the GM 200 € for that :D
Pandelume 09-04-03, 09:57 AM	Originally posted by LordHell I have to disagree with most of the people here - some of you are defending Larloch as if he is your hero. I am a DM of some experiance (around approximately 10 years), mainly of AD&D 1st and 2nd Edition. I do have a weakness in this discussion, and that is while I am reasonably competent with 3rd Edition, I am only slightly competent with 3.5 edition and epic levels, and Larloch himself. My comments 1) Nothing, or no one, is indestructable. Not even gods. 2) While it is highly unlikely my PCs would ever reach the levels required to take on Larloch it could happen, and I think many of you over-estimate his power, he has been around for 2000 years? So what, so have a few elves and dragons - and they most definately arn't "indestructable" 3) Following on from my last comment, I believe getting above 20th level to be extremely rare at best. If a whole party of PC's were to make it this far then they too deserve some respect. 4) He is still a Lich at the end of the day, and being undead carries weakness along with the improvements, don't forget this. 5) It is quite possible that high level PC's can make themselves almost immune to magic - his greatest asset. 6) It is also quite possible that high level PC's can make themselves immune to divinitation. 7) Lich's and undead arn't that incredably tough once you know how to deal with them. For example if this was 2nd edition, 30 clerics armed with a few sunray scrolls could eliminate thousands of undead that didn't have SR. (Or MR as it was back then). 8) A party of 6 - 25-30th PC's can take on foes that are upwards of 30th level. At this stage it's not really the levels that matter, it's the items you have. 9) PC's that are in this range are getting incredably powerful themselves, and quite possibly have the best magical weapons available if not a few artifacts too! 10) His Intelligence might be 32, but some PC's might also have massively high intelligence by this stage. Also 6 heads are better than one, and for all his intelligence, what's his wisdom!? 11) He has taken 2000 years to advance to level 32, whereas the PC's have taken at most 50 years to advance to level 25-30, who is the greater threat here? 12) He may be SR to the teeth, but he is still vulnerable to AOE spells such as earthquake and what not. It is possible he can use spells and such to perhaps avoid the effects (Fly, etc) but this is still something that can be exploited. 13) High level PC's should be able to Gate in extremely potent allies to help in their aid such as celestials and what not, who can quite possibly rip through armies of undead by themselves. I think defeating him wouldn't be impossible, you guys are forgetting that a party over the level of 25 would be one of the most powerful groups in all of Faerun, with some of the most powerful items at their disposal too! Killing him (there is a difference) would be something different however - but killing them wouldn't be easy either. You can't just say "he teleports in 60 Liches and wastes them". By the time the PC's are at least level 25 most of them would be highly resistant to just about anything magical that Lichs could throw at them anyway. It is similar to when you reach 10th level, no amount of Orcs are going to hurt you and you can wipe them out en-mass. Without their magical protections, normal Lichs are extremely slow and weak. Your average party of 14th level characters can kill an average Lich, I'm sorry, I don't see 60 or even 600 Lichs doing much harm to a 25th+ level party. By this stage of the game it's all about force multipliers and not numbers anyway - in which the PC's will have PLENTY. I think it would end up a stalemate - at these levels, no one dies easily. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Now having said that, I do believe any DM would not let such characters as Larloch, Elminster, the Simbul, or even Drizzt be killed by a party of PC's, because despite these characters being benchmarks in the Forgotten Realms, they are more importantly the pillars in which the Realms sit upon. Also while Epic level adventures can be fun, I personally think that the PC's should find their challanges outside the prime material plane instead of wanting to pick off legendary figures around the realms. As an idea for your characters however, I suggest this: An Arch-Vampire of Larlochs has been spying on the PC's (such a powerful group would not go unnoticed) and actually captures the PCs before they make it near Larloch. Knowing Larloch will just slay them , this vampire wants to have a bit of fun and puts them in a horrible maze full of tricks, riddles, and traps, and full of wild magic and dead magic zones - with NO items, food, or water, and for his amusement watches their futile efforts to try and escape (without informing Larloch of course, he wants to have some fun). If the PCs look like they're about to escape he takes them on. Make him suitablely powerful to challange them (maybe a 25th level fighter with some nifty vampire abilities), but not too powerful as the PC's wont have many magical items (unless you want to litter the maze with them). After escaping with barely their lives, and only just surviving one of Larlochs SERVANTS, and also aware that Larloch is onto them - they might just think twice. If they don't, well, you DID give them a warning. :) Also I never mentioned anything about returning their items... Hehe I am looking forward to Savras post where he takes your argument apart. But I agree with in one repest if DM lets players powergame and does not bost NPC along with them. PC could kill any thing in the realms. But thats the not the role Greenwood and the over FR design team had in mind for those NPC's.
Savras 09-04-03, 12:13 PM	Originaly Posted by Disciple of Darkness: (BTW, I'm quite happy that it was Savras who answered to my post - he's calm enough to avoid mocking people and that stuff and intelligent enough to know when there's no reason to argue because you feel like it. Keep up the good work, O Lord of Divination ) http://www.geocities.com/sirgrimsage/Smilies/Savras9.txt Happy to... errr... well, mainly happy to get compliments! http://www.geocities.com/sirgrimsage/Smilies/savras.txt I look at it as a fun challange. I also think both Kedi and Shavit should settle down a bit, be less vehement. I mean, really. Originaly posted by Pandelume: Hehe I am looking forward to Savras post where he takes your argument apart. Heh, I seem to be making a name... I will get to all posts, worry not, but I believe I am beaten... see my following posts. So, we go... Savras Edit: Just wondered, who the hell said Larloch had 150 phylacteries? Where did that number come from? A phylactey is a gem (or other small item) the lich keeps his soul in, in the passage from life (soul in body) to lichdom (soul not in body yet not passing on). So, unless he had 150 souls, I find it hard to believe he has 150 phylacteries. Decoys, now that's something else.
Savras 09-04-03, 12:59 PM	Originally posted by LordHell I have to disagree with most of the people here - some of you are defending Larloch as if he is your hero. I am a DM of some experiance (around approximately 10 years), mainly of AD&D 1st and 2nd Edition. I am also a DM, and I think that Larloch is a power that be. And if any player wants to try and tackle him, I'll give them a (short and humilating) run for their money. My comments 1) Nothing, or no one, is indestructable. Not even gods. Yes, I know. What does that have to do with anything? People come and say "I do X to kill the Shadow King" and I point why it doesn't work. He *can* be killed. Probably. 2) While it is highly unlikely my PCs would ever reach the levels required to take on Larloch it could happen, and I think many of you over-estimate his power, he has been around for 2000 years? So what, so have a few elves and dragons - and they most definately arn't "indestructable" Yes, but your elves and dragons do not have: A. A castle as well protected as Undermountain (i.e., spell webs as powerful as some Mythals). B. An army of lesser undead (several thousands). C. An army of vampires. D. 60+ Liches also hailing from Netheril, all of them above 20th level. E. Superpowerful magical items, and several artifacts. F. Favours owend to him by powerful individual- Szass Tam, in Larloch's case. Larloch gave Tam two artifacts. G. They can't cast Epic spells, haven't knowledge of all spells in all books and many unique ones. So you see, I think there is a wee bit of a diffrence. 3) Following on from my last comment, I believe getting above 20th level to be extremely rare at best. If a whole party of PC's were to make it this far then they too deserve some respect. Yes they do. Again, what has it got to do with anything? They still can't kill him at any level before 30. {Note- don't catch me by the level, ain't that good with epic}. 4) He is still a Lich at the end of the day, and being undead carries weakness along with the improvements, don't forget this. It is *you* that try to kill him. It is a weakness? Sure, use it. 5) It is quite possible that high level PC's can make themselves almost immune to magic - his greatest asset. Are they immune to devils ripping their guts out? The earth opening beneath their feet and then closing after they fell in? Are they immune to Spheres of Annihilation? Thought so. 6) It is also quite possible that high level PC's can make themselves immune to divinitation. ??? OK, but when they walk through the spell-web, he'll know. Die later, but your still dead. 7) Lich's and undead arn't that incredably tough once you know how to deal with them. For example if this was 2nd edition, 30 clerics armed with a few sunray scrolls could eliminate thousands of undead that didn't have SR. (Or MR as it was back then). Lichs *are* hard to deal with. 8) A party of 6 - 25-30th PC's can take on foes that are upwards of 30th level. At this stage it's not really the levels that matter, it's the items you have. Right, which is why Larloch wins. He has ARTIFACTS, OK? He carries several artifacts with him (some of his Ioun Stones) and has more. We are not talking of his liches and *their* many magical items yet. So in this category, he wins. 9) PC's that are in this range are getting incredably powerful themselves, and quite possibly have the best magical weapons available if not a few artifacts too! If they have a few artifacts, the game is Uber Powerful. And Larloch still wins. He has more artifacts, more spell power and an army. 10) His Intelligence might be 32, but some PC's might also have massively high intelligence by this stage. Also 6 heads are better than one, and for all his intelligence, what's his wisdom!? And 60+++ heads (he and his liches) are far better than 6, *especially* when they all have Int in the high 20s low 30s. Oh, and his Wisdom is 24. Anything else? 11) He has taken 2000 years to advance to level 32, whereas the PC's have taken at most 50 years to advance to level 25-30, who is the greater threat here? You seem to forget all the XP that was spent on item creation and artifact creation, Wishes and Permanancys? Spell webs don't come cheap, and niether do his Ioun Stones. 12) He may be SR to the teeth, but he is still vulnerable to AOE spells such as earthquake and what not. It is possible he can use spells and such to perhaps avoid the effects (Fly, etc) but this is still something that can be exploited. So, try. Just remember he will counterspell and let tha other 60+ liches take care of you. Or, if you use anything with Ref, know he has Evasion. He has Spell Turning always active, and if he doesn't protect himeself from elements he's Int 3. So, you cast Earthquake, he kills you. Then asks a vampire to fix the cieling. 13) High level PC's should be able to Gate in extremely potent allies to help in their aid such as celestials and what not, who can quite possibly rip through armies of undead by themselves. Sure they can. Can they rip through the armies while being target practice to 60+ liches, an Netherese Arcanist King, and many vampires? Also, Larloch can also Gate friends, like Mystra, who, while disliking his evil, loves his love to the Art. Also, remember Szass Tam owes him one. I think defeating him wouldn't be impossible, you guys are forgetting that a party over the level of 25 would be one of the most powerful groups in all of Faerun, with some of the most powerful items at their disposal too! But Larloch has 60+++ people at that level serving him, disincluding him, and he has more artifacts, unless your PCs went shopping spree in Artifacts R Us, in which case, what where you thinking? Killing him (there is a difference) would be something different however - but killing them wouldn't be easy either. I think you'll find it will be easy for his *army of liches*. You can't just say "he teleports in 60 Liches and wastes them". By the time the PC's are at least level 25 most of them would be highly resistant to just about anything magical that Lichs could throw at them anyway. It is similar to when you reach 10th level, no amount of Orcs are going to hurt you and you can wipe them out en-mass. Without their magical protections, normal Lichs are extremely slow and weak. ??? What the hell are you talking about? An orc fighter20\brb20 can kick some ass, don'tcha think? As per Ed Greenwood, creator of the Realms (and Larloch), and he said the Shadow King and his court are conected in a Hivemind. If you say "His stats don't say that" then I'll say- OK, they are all bonded by Rary's Telepathic Bond. K? So, he can just get them all there. Now, liches are not slow. They have the same speed as they did in life. And they are far from weak- their touch can paralyze, they can shoot balls of negative energy (MoF), and do many more, without casting a single spell. So, you are wrong here, as per 3.0 and 3.5. Your average party of 14th level characters can kill an average Lich, I'm sorry, I don't see 60 or even 600 Lichs doing much harm to a 25th+ level party. That's like saying they can kill an average + Wizard. Lichs are Wizards, Sors or Clerics who transformed themselves to Undead. There is no "average" lich. These 60+ liches are, notice, in addition to their lich powers, they also have 20++ levels in Wizard (or PrCs thereof). OK? So, they can wipe the floor with 6 25+ people, 'cause they are 60. By this stage of the game it's all about force multipliers and not numbers anyway - in which the PC's will have PLENTY. So will the liches. I think it would end up a stalemate - at these levels, no one dies easily. Liches are harder to kill then humans. [/QUOTE] The rest of that post was agreeable from my prespective. Next! Savras, Who Is Having Fun
Savras 09-04-03, 01:09 PM	Now this can kill the Shadow King, I think... but I'll give it a shot. Originally posted by Alratan Another way of killing Larloch: Use the epic spells built from the forsee seed to locate Larloch's phylactery - note that Larloch can not defend against this by any means, as forsee has personal range, and questions are always answered with 90% accuracy. Make your fighter and his equipment immune to the effects of antimagic field and the dispell spells using the ward seed, and then having an item which gives permanent antimagic field, and to have your casters shapeshift into Mithril Golems and have the feat Permanent Emanation (Antimagic Field) and Multispell twice. You can then walk in. The fighters magic equipment functions normally but they are completly immune to any outside magical effects, and your casters can lower their antimagic fields at the beginning of their rounds and raise them at the ends. Open a Gate as close as possible to the location of the phylactery, if it is in possession of a creature compel them to step through the gate if close enough. Give a rogue lots of scrolls of MD and buff his wisdom with epic spells until he can't fail the save - then MD your way towards the phylactery. When you get there, open a gate to the very edge of a dead magic zone you have previously fortified and use telekinesis to throw it through the gate. Proceed to immediatly attack Larloch. So, it kinda works... except that when the Web ceases to function Larloch will sense it. Same thing when they go for his phylactery. He will flee (pobably after trying a few Disjunctions at the antimagig field), and then kill than from afar. Or he'll just use an Uber-Cool Epic spell. As I said, I an't whizz-bang at Epic, but you see- he will run to survive. And vex him, and yuo've got an Archnemesis with Epic capabilities, 60+ liches (he will take thim with him) and a Szass Tam. Then, he would hunt you down, using his 34 Int. Or he'll just outlive you. Savras
Herr Doktor 09-04-03, 01:55 PM	This is it then... it'd be easier to kill the new Mystra than to kill Larloch, so simply get her out of the way (she's got enough enemies that'd gladly take up any oppurtunity granted in harming her in anyway at all) and Larloch is practically defenseless. Of course the rest of the realms will have to suffer as well. Anyway... I think the bottom line is that Larloch isn't really doing anything wrong, he just wants to be left alone. So people should probably leave him alone.
Savras 09-04-03, 06:02 PM	This seems like an UnCon Event- "The Killing Larloch Debate". I wonder which side won... Savras
LordHell 09-04-03, 06:38 PM	Allow me to retort: Originally posted by Savras I am also a DM, and I think that Larloch is a power that be. And if any player wants to try and tackle him, I'll give them a (short and humilating) run for their money. No one is suggesting that Larloch is a pushover. What a lot of you are suggesting is that an epic level party is a pushover! I think this is incorrect. Yes, but your elves and dragons do not have: A. A castle as well protected as Undermountain (i.e., spell webs as powerful as some Mythals). B. An army of lesser undead (several thousands). C. An army of vampires. D. 60+ Liches also hailing from Netheril, all of them above 20th level. E. Superpowerful magical items, and several artifacts. F. Favours owend to him by powerful individual- Szass Tam, in Larloch's case. Larloch gave Tam two artifacts. G. They can't cast Epic spells, haven't knowledge of all spells in all books and many unique ones. So you see, I think there is a wee bit of a diffrence. This is amusing that you can come in here and SAY exactly what dragons and elves have, as if it is fact. I will humour your for a minute anyway. A) A dragon could quite feasably have a fortress just as strong as Larloch, and an Elven city could also be extremely challanging to attack. B) A dragon IS a one man army all by itself. C) See above, and what's an army worth when it can only operate in the darkness? Another exploit. D) 60+ Liches of 20th+ level would be a fearsome foe, but at the end of the day you can't fit 60+ Liches in a small room, and 25+ level parties would be practically immune to magical energy(fire/ice/electricity/acid), and have easy means of shrugging off any mind domination spells and what not. Then what are the liches going to do? 99.9% of them probably wouldn't even be able to hit a 25th+ level PC, and most of their spells would be practically useless. The only fearsome thing I can see out of this would be 60+ timestops. I'm sure the PC's would have to deal with this in some way. E) Dragons have super powerful magical items, and a few artifacts lying around, as do Elven societies. F) I'm sure some powerful Dragons have many few powerful people under a geas or two. The Elves also would have powerful allies (such as their gods avatars!) G) This is a grand assumption, I am confident that there are a lot of elves capable of epic level spells, and a few dragons too! Yes they do. Again, what has it got to do with anything? They still can't kill him at any level before 30. {Note- don't catch me by the level, ain't that good with epic}. This has to do with the fact you are shrugging off a 25th level party as pretty laughable. Listen. A 25th+ level party IS THE MOST POWERFUL GROUP IN THE REALMS AS IT STANDS. Not even the 7 sisters are all 25th+ level. If ANYONE was going to take on Larloch and win, it WOULD be them. They have no weakness! They cover all the spectrum of abilities. Fighting, Stealth, Arcane Magic, Divine Magic, Hell, they could probably conjure up some clones and stash them away incase they die. This tactic makes Manshoon virtually immortal and he is only 19th level! It is *you* that try to kill him. It is a weakness? Sure, use it. It doesn't matter who you are, but being undead brings weaknesses along with strengths, and these weakness can be exploited with careful planning. Are they immune to devils ripping their guts out? The earth opening beneath their feet and then closing after they fell in? Are they immune to Spheres of Annihilation? Thought so They just might be, it is quite probably that the Fighters have armour that is 15/+3 by this stage, the mages have some sort of protection from normal weapons at all times. How are devils going to even touch them? Give them credit, they are epic levels themselves! As for spheres for Annihaliation, implosion, imprisonment, that is nothing a few spell traps, spell immunities:abjuration, spell resistance, amulets, death wards, or one of the millions of ways a epic level party can protect itself from. Boots of flying, boots of speed, blah blah blah. Remember, they have time to PREPARE! ??? OK, but when they walk through the spell-web, he'll know. Die later, but your still dead. I would asume he would know they are coming, but a smart party would know this are prepare for this situation. Lichs *are* hard to deal with. Not when your party is epic level, a high level party could easily craft a wand of summoning Hakshars (or whatever they are called) to use as a sort of spell sheild, sucking up everything cast at them. Remember these Liches wont have had time to prepare, and at best would have had a few or so deathspells/deathfogs. Nothing a 50 or even 100 charged wand won't take care of. If anything tries to physically attack the Hakshars, that's what Mordekans swords are for! That combination and you have an army that is immune to magic and virtually most physical attacks - which could quite easily keep a lot of Lich's at bay while you go for the head of the snake. Right, which is why Larloch wins. He has ARTIFACTS, OK? He carries several artifacts with him (some of his Ioun Stones) and has more. We are not talking of his liches and *their* many magical items yet. So in this category, he wins. You do realise that it is quite possible for PC's to craft their own spells, their own magical items, and to have most likely stumbled on a large amount of artifacts by the time they reach 25th level themselves? If they have a few artifacts, the game is Uber Powerful. And Larloch still wins. He has more artifacts, more spell power and an army. If you had a party of 25th level PCs, the game is already uber powerful. He might have more artifacts, more spell power, and an army, but he can't use them all at once! And 60+++ heads (he and his liches) are far better than 6, *especially* when they all have Int in the high 20s low 30s. Oh, and his Wisdom is 24. Anything else? Yes 60++ heads are better than 6, but they are all undead and all share the same weakness. All their eggs are in the one basket, and you know what they say about that? You seem to forget all the XP that was spent on item creation and artifact creation, Wishes and Permanancys? Spell webs don't come cheap, and niether do his Ioun Stones. Point conceeded. So, try. Just remember he will counterspell and let tha other 60+ liches take care of you. Or, if you use anything with Ref, know he has Evasion. He has Spell Turning always active, and if he doesn't protect himeself from elements he's Int 3. So, you cast Earthquake, he kills you. Then asks a vampire to fix the cieling. He can't protect himself from fighters +5 swords (possibly even +6 by this stage). He is going to do jack **** against a improved hasted paladin buffed up to nam with his gods fury in his eyes, weilding a vorpal keen +6 holy avenger. Spell turning can me taken down, resistances can be lowered, hell you could shapechange into a mind flayer and intelligence drain him, that would **** him off! All they need to do is hit him and his army of Lichs with an insect plague (area of effect) and they can cast naught spells after that. Sure they can. Can they rip through the armies while being target practice to 60+ liches, an Netherese Arcanist King, and many vampires? A lot of celestials are almost completely immune to magic, level drain, and anything shy of +3 attacks. This is why they are Celestials, and extremely feared by all. Also, Larloch can also Gate friends, like Mystra, who, while disliking his evil, loves his love to the Art. Also, remember Szass Tam owes him one. I doubt Mystra would come to his rescue, but his other friends could prove problematic. However, in the thick of a battle, he might not have enough time to do everything at once, and if the PC's caught him in a confined space he can't gate in 60+ liches and then his whole dinner party list of friends. But Larloch has 60+++ people at that level serving him, disincluding him, and he has more artifacts, unless your PCs went shopping spree in Artifacts R Us, in which case, what where you thinking? Again, put him in a confined space. The PC's could put up a wall of force seperating his army from him, using a cube of force. He also can't use all his artifacts at once, he only has two hands. What the hell are you talking about? An orc fighter20\brb20 can kick some ass, don'tcha think? As per Ed Greenwood, creator of the Realms (and Larloch), and he said the Shadow King and his court are conected in a Hivemind. If you say "His stats don't say that" then I'll say- OK, they are all bonded by Rary's Telepathic Bond. K? So, he can just get them all there. Now, liches are not slow. They have the same speed as they did in life. And they are far from weak- their touch can paralyze, they can shoot balls of negative energy (MoF), and do many more, without casting a single spell. So, you are wrong here, as per 3.0 and 3.5. Again, the PCs have the advantage of being able to prepare. They can make themselves completely immune to level drain (negative plane protection), they can all put up spell traps, summon magic eating monsters, make themselves immune to virtually all normal spells in the book, then unleash hell upon the Lichs, Spells such as holy word can deafen all the Lichs in one swoop, making them have a 50% casting failure, and there is NOTHING they can do about, insect plague across the whole battlefield, negating their ability to cast any spells, followed up by earthquakes and all sorts of nasty abilitys. The PCs at this level could even craft spells and items perfectly for this situation. That's like saying they can kill an average + Wizard. Lichs are Wizards, Sors or Clerics who transformed themselves to Undead. There is no "average" lich. These 60+ liches are, notice, in addition to their lich powers, they also have 20++ levels in Wizard (or PrCs thereof). OK? So, they can wipe the floor with 6 25+ people, 'cause they are 60. No, you don't seem to realise when you are in the PC's realm of power, it's not about numbers, it's about force multipliers. If the PC's fight on THEIR terms, and they are smart, they should never even see 60+ Liches that can attack them at once. If they are smart, they can win. If they are not smart, they will die. Natural selection. Liches are harder to kill then humans. Humans can be raised. In conclusion, while Larloch may be in an almost unbreachable fortress, and possibly one of the most powerful characters in the realms, I am in the firm belief that if any party can make it to 25 level at least with all their members, they are the only ones short of a god that could take out Larloch. You are overlooking just how powerful that they are, think about it for a minute. They have no weaknesses (due to their diversity), they can have their own artifacts and their own epic spells, they WILL have their own powerful allies they can call on by that stage, maybe even some gods, they have time to prepare, plan, and they have basically everything available to them that Larloch does. Hell, they could just throw clones at him first to see how it works out. That's what I'd do if I were them, backed up by spell traps, Mordies swords, spell immunities, insect plagues, contingencies that slip them into etherealness on timestop, etc etc. With the proper planning, and proper cunning, they could drive Larloch's soul from his body defeating him. Killing him tho? That's an adventure for another day.
Pandelume 09-04-03, 08:42 PM	I am going to have a go at been Savras role. :D "No one is suggesting that Larloch is a pushover. What a lot of you are suggesting is that an epic level party is a pushover! I think this is incorrect." Point is in the time its taken your party to become Epic, Larloch probaly Gain aload more levels along with his lichs. So say at the start of your quest Larloch 34 while your PC are 1 by the time their 34 he probably be 40 + and his lich the 35+. True its your world as a DM and larloch could just sit their for 20-40 years. This is amusing that you can come in here and SAY exactly what dragons and elves have, as if it is fact. I will humour your for a minute anyway. A) A dragon could quite feasably have a fortress just as strong as Larloch, and an Elven city could also be extremely challanging to attack. "B) A dragon IS a one man army all by itself." Sure Larloch could probably kill 90% of the Dragon in FR by him self. "C) See above, and what's an army worth when it can only operate in the darkness? Another exploit." Not sure the point here you saying Darkness going to take out Larloch army. ? "D) 60+ Liches of 20th+ level would be a fearsome foe, but at the "end of the day you can't fit 60+ Liches in a small room, and 25+ level parties would be practically immune to magical energy(fire/ice/electricity/acid), and have easy means of shrugging off any mind domination spells and what not. Then what are the liches going to do? 99.9% of them probably wouldn't even be able to hit a 25th+ level PC, and most of their spells would be practically useless. The only fearsome thing I can see out of this would be 60+ timestops. I'm sure the PC's would have to deal with this in some way." So your whole plan lies aroudn geting into a small room ? I would just get the lich to drop the roof on you. or they could wait for you to come out. Or set a teleportion trap up. E) Dragons have super powerful magical items, and a few artifacts lying around, as do Elven societies. Well only dragon that really a magical power is the creeping doom and while he powerful he's not made any thing close to Netheril Artfacts. F) I'm sure some powerful Dragons have many few powerful people under a geas or two. The Elves also would have powerful allies (such as their gods avatars!) So elves are going to pull their major protector away from the Evermeet to attack larloch!!!. Probably still lose or Larloch would just run. "G) This is a grand assumption, I am confident that there are a lot of elves capable of epic level spells, and a few dragons too!" No Dragon has spell casting power of Netheril Archwizards and Elf power is mainly High magic that can only be cast in some area's. ............... "This has to do with the fact you are shrugging off a 25th level party as pretty laughable." Yeah Larloch got a party of over 60+ level 25 th +. That not counting his vampires. "Listen. A 25th+ level party IS THE MOST POWERFUL GROUP IN THE REALMS AS IT STANDS. Not even the 7 sisters are all 25th+ level." same as above... "If ANYONE was going to take on Larloch and win, it WOULD be them." Why "would" it be them. Larloch been given power by Mystra so she must not mind him much. "They have no weakness! They cover all the spectrum of abilities. Fighting, Stealth, Arcane Magic, Divine Magic, Hell, they could probably conjure up some clones and stash them away incase they die. This tactic makes Manshoon virtually immortal and he is only 19th level!" Larloch has 60+ "Archwizards" and alot of high level vampires a so he could probably counter all them. Myabe Larloch has clones as well. "It doesn't matter who you are, but being undead brings weaknesses along with strengths, and these weakness can be exploited with careful planning." Yeah humans do as well they need to breth air for one and die with only a bit of their body damage. Yes they can be resurrected. But Larloch might turn them into his undead minions before your cleric could. "They just might be, it is quite probably that the Fighters have armour that is 15/+3 by this stage, the mages have some sort of protection from normal weapons at all times. How are devils going to even touch them? Give them credit, they are epic levels themselves! As for spheres for Annihaliation, implosion, imprisonment, that is nothing a few spell traps, spell immunities:abjuration, spell resistance, amulets, death wards, or one of the millions of ways a epic level party can protect itself from. Boots of flying, boots of speed, blah blah blah. Remember, they have time to PREPARE!" I am sure in Larloch longlife time with his massive INT he never thought hang on with out magic I sort screwed. Must have thought that at least once in his life after all he was around when magic stop working. So he probaly has epic level fights as well So few of golems Mithral Golem and probaly countless golems etc. "I would asume he would know they are coming, but a smart party would know this are prepare for this situation." So what they going to do rember not much is known if antthing about Warlocks keep. They hit the spellweb the only one in the realms they what know what it is off the bat and how to deal with it ? "Not when your party is epic level, a high level party could easily craft a wand of summoning Hakshars (or whatever they are called) to use as a sort of spell sheild, sucking up everything cast at them. Remember these Liches wont have had time to prepare, and at best would have had a few or so deathspells/deathfogs. Nothing a 50 or even 100 charged wand won't take care of. If anything tries to physically attack the Hakshars, that's what Mordekans swords are for! That combination and you have an army that is immune to magic and virtually most physical attacks - which could quite easily keep a lot of Lich's at bay while you go for the head of the snake." So your plan for fighting 60 + lichs plus vampires plus lesser undead. Plus monster Larloch can summon and Larloch him self. That their not going to prepared. So these party is going to out summon 60+ lichs and Vampires etc. I am sure if the 2000+ years Larloch been working on spell research he never made "wand of summoning Hakshars" him self and while his less undead 10 000+ buy him time he has time to arm his spell casting army. "You do realise that it is quite possible for PC's to craft their own spells, their own magical items, and to have most likely stumbled on a large amount of artifacts by the time they reach 25th level themselves?" Larloch and his minions have been researching and making an hunting for items. for 2000+ years. Larloch even read the Neth scrolls.... "Yes 60++ heads are better than 6, but they are all undead and all share the same weakness. All their eggs are in the one basket, and you know what they say about that?" So your party facing 60+ Lichs(we leave out vampires etc) their all goign to fall for the same attack. ? "He can't protect himself from fighters +5 swords (possibly even +6 by this stage). He is going to do jack **** against a improved hasted paladin buffed up to nam with his gods fury in his eyes, weilding a vorpal keen +6 holy avenger. Spell turning can me taken down, resistances can be lowered, hell you could shapechange into a mind flayer and intelligence drain him, that would **** him off! All they need to do is hit him and his army of Lichs with an insect plague (area of effect) and they can cast naught spells after that." Your party has the most power items in te realms and Larloch who collects Super uber Items not been watching.... But say he did some how get 1 on 1 with Larloch I would say Larloch would teleport away....... "A lot of celestials are almost completely immune to magic, level drain, and anything shy of +3 attacks. This is why they are Celestials, and extremely feared by all." So your going to throw celestials at Larloch now..... ? "I doubt Mystra would come to his rescue, but his other friends could prove problematic. However, in the thick of a battle, he might not have enough time to do everything at once, and if the PC's caught him in a confined space he can't gate in 60+ liches and then his whole dinner party list of friends." Larloch would probably teleport out or Larloch would just get 6 of his 25+ lich to fight you. remeber your party will be in a small place as well. I still dont see how they could sneak up on Larloch carry the massive magical fields their ubers cause. Thats not counting them geting past Spellweb never sleeling watch and once your inside Warloch keep the countless trap described in NEOM. "Again, put him in a confined space. The PC's could put up a wall of force seperating his army from him, using a cube of force. He also can't use all his artifacts at once, he only has two hands." I seem to be repeating myself alot but lets just say Larloch does teleport out but summons allies that would best fit his needs(none of the over answer to what Larloch would do in a small room). Lets say your party beats first wave Larloch summons more and more and more and more etc.... "Again, the PCs have the advantage of being able to prepare. They can make themselves completely immune to level drain (negative plane protection), they can all put up spell traps, summon magic eating monsters, make themselves immune to virtually all normal spells in the book, then unleash hell upon the Lichs, Spells such as holy word can deafen all the Lichs in one swoop, making them have a 50% casting failure, and there is NOTHING they can do about, insect plague across the whole battlefield, negating their ability to cast any spells, followed up by earthquakes and all sorts of nasty abilitys. The PCs at this level could even craft spells and items perfectly for this situation." Well it more tha likly that your super item covered PC will have all ready come to Larloch notic for having those super uber items. So they come to his part of the world he probably be watching them. His Lich(or over minions) probaby work out that their planing on going on super undead killing You have to keep in mind that countless people have tryed what your saying to attack larloch and none have lived. "No, you don't seem to realise when you are in the PC's realm of power, it's not about numbers, it's about force multipliers. If the PC's fight on THEIR terms, and they are smart, they should never even see 60+ Liches that can attack them at once. If they are smart, they can win. If they are not smart, they will die. Natural selection. " Yeah that arguement workd for Larloch as well. "Humans can be raised." Yeah as Larloch undead force's....... So when all said and done Larloch probably going to be adding some more uber items to his collection. Plus have some new high level minions. So How would you rate my post Savras. :) Yeah I know not very good still. :D
LordHell 09-04-03, 09:52 PM	Before I comment on your individual points, I would like to comment about the thing a lot of you are relying on. Larloch and his 60+ Archliches... as if they are this undefeatable force. Unless the PC's find themselves trapped out in the open (highly unlikely) then the 60+ Archliches won't be much of a problem. Unless Larloch is onto them from the very beginning, they can plan around the 60+ ArchLiches, they could send a distraction to get rid of them, clones of themselves, or simply retreat into an area where they arn't subjective to 60+ magical attacks a round. A frontal attack would be suicide, no one is even contemplating this, so unless Larloch constantly hangs around huge open areas then the 60+ Liches are not even going to come into play. Don't even bother with the vampires as they probably won't even be able to HIT PC's of this level. I mean hell, what's to stop the PC's getting together 60 Level 20+ Clerics to counter the 60 Liches? "No one is suggesting that Larloch is a pushover. What a lot of you are suggesting is that an epic level party is a pushover! I think this is incorrect." Point is in the time its taken your party to become Epic, Larloch probaly Gain aload more levels along with his lichs. So say at the start of your quest Larloch 34 while your PC are 1 by the time their 34 he probably be 40 + and his lich the 35+. True its your world as a DM and larloch could just sit their for 20-40 years. Larloch has taken 2000 years to get to 32nd level, he is hardly going to hit 40+ after another 40 years, and in 3.0+ edition it is highly unlikely he will advance any further at all. (What is going to be a challange?) This is amusing that you can come in here and SAY exactly what dragons and elves have, as if it is fact. I will humour your for a minute anyway. A) A dragon could quite feasably have a fortress just as strong as Larloch, and an Elven city could also be extremely challanging to attack. "B) A dragon IS a one man army all by itself." Sure Larloch could probably kill 90% of the Dragon in FR by him self. "C) See above, and what's an army worth when it can only operate in the darkness? Another exploit." Not sure the point here you saying Darkness going to take out Larloch army. ? My Original point was that just because Larloch is 2000 years old doesn't mean didly squat. A lot of you were using this as some sort of trump card saying he has everything and anything at his disposal due to his age. I simply stated this was incorrect due to the fact that Elves and Dragons can be equally as old and never reach the power levels Larloch has, so age has nothing to do with it. As for my other comment, vampires can only operate in the Dark, which means they have a major weakness and a epic level party could easily use this exploit to their advantage, making even 1 billion vampires a moot point. "This has to do with the fact you are shrugging off a 25th level party as pretty laughable." Yeah Larloch got a party of over 60+ level 25 th +. That not counting his vampires. The Vampires are a moot point, and Larloch has 60+ LICHES over level 20, that does not equal a PARTY over level 25, and all 60 couldn't attack them anyway. A party of 25+ level is something far different to a group of undead lichs who all share the same strengths and same weakness. You can't simply counter a epic level party with a single group of Lichs, you'll need Lichs + Fighters + Rogues + Bards to effectively do that, and since that is comprimised of vampires, which can be taken out of action with daylight, you are at a disadvantage. "If ANYONE was going to take on Larloch and win, it WOULD be them." Why "would" it be them. Larloch been given power by Mystra so she must not mind him much. There is no other group on that would be as powerful as this party. That is why they are probably the only ones with a chance. Just because Mystra does not mind him much, doesn't mean she will save his bacon. She probably doesn't mind the mage(s) in the party much either. "They have no weakness! They cover all the spectrum of abilities. Fighting, Stealth, Arcane Magic, Divine Magic, Hell, they could probably conjure up some clones and stash them away incase they die. This tactic makes Manshoon virtually immortal and he is only 19th level!" Larloch has 60+ "Archwizards" and alot of high level vampires a so he could probably counter all them. Myabe Larloch has clones as well. Read above, and he probably does have clones - making him very tricky to kill. "It doesn't matter who you are, but being undead brings weaknesses along with strengths, and these weakness can be exploited with careful planning." Yeah humans do as well they need to breth air for one and die with only a bit of their body damage. Yes they can be resurrected. But Larloch might turn them into his undead minions before your cleric could. Humans (especially fighters) can stand much more physical pain that Liches, and are more durable. Larloch would turn them into undead minions only if they ALL died, I'm sure each and every other one of them is armed with a rod of ressurection otherwise, so even if there is one still standing he can raise his fallen comrads far quicker than Larloch can turn them into undead. "They just might be, it is quite probably that the Fighters have armour that is 15/+3 by this stage, the mages have some sort of protection from normal weapons at all times. How are devils going to even touch them? Give them credit, they are epic levels themselves! As for spheres for Annihaliation, implosion, imprisonment, that is nothing a few spell traps, spell immunities:abjuration, spell resistance, amulets, death wards, or one of the millions of ways a epic level party can protect itself from. Boots of flying, boots of speed, blah blah blah. Remember, they have time to PREPARE!" I am sure in Larloch longlife time with his massive INT he never thought hang on with out magic I sort screwed. Must have thought that at least once in his life after all he was around when magic stop working. So he probaly has epic level fights as well So few of golems Mithral Golem and probaly countless golems etc. He probably does have some very strong protections that are meat shields, something the PC's will have to be weary of. Golems arn't much of a problem though, because according to Elminster disintergrate completely and utterly owns golems (read the spellfire book). I'm not sure if this is still the case in 3.0E - but even if it is, golems all have glaring weaknesses, hell, the PC's could bring an army of golems along as well stuffed away in a folding boat or what not. "I would asume he would know they are coming, but a smart party would know this are prepare for this situation." So what they going to do rember not much is known if antthing about Warlocks keep. They hit the spellweb the only one in the realms they what know what it is off the bat and how to deal with it ? Any complex and any situation can be dealt with with a portable hole - don't leave home without one. "Not when your party is epic level, a high level party could easily craft a wand of summoning Hakshars (or whatever they are called) to use as a sort of spell sheild, sucking up everything cast at them. Remember these Liches wont have had time to prepare, and at best would have had a few or so deathspells/deathfogs. Nothing a 50 or even 100 charged wand won't take care of. If anything tries to physically attack the Hakshars, that's what Mordekans swords are for! That combination and you have an army that is immune to magic and virtually most physical attacks - which could quite easily keep a lot of Lich's at bay while you go for the head of the snake." So your plan for fighting 60 + lichs plus vampires plus lesser undead. Plus monster Larloch can summon and Larloch him self. That their not going to prepared. So these party is going to out summon 60+ lichs and Vampires etc. I am sure if the 2000+ years Larloch been working on spell research he never made "wand of summoning Hakshars" him self and while his less undead 10 000+ buy him time he has time to arm his spell casting army. Vampires are moot, lesser undead are moot, you'd be stupid to come across 60+ liches at once, and he probably has similar items, but the PCs will still be able to craft items that he will NOT have, and vise versa. "You do realise that it is quite possible for PC's to craft their own spells, their own magical items, and to have most likely stumbled on a large amount of artifacts by the time they reach 25th level themselves?" Larloch and his minions have been researching and making an hunting for items. for 2000+ years. Larloch even read the Neth scrolls.... So have elves, dragons, and what not, but you've already stated that THEY don't have powerful items, so this point is moot, sorry. "Yes 60++ heads are better than 6, but they are all undead and all share the same weakness. All their eggs are in the one basket, and you know what they say about that?" So your party facing 60+ Lichs(we leave out vampires etc) their all goign to fall for the same attack. ? They all have the same weakness, so why not? "He can't protect himself from fighters +5 swords (possibly even +6 by this stage). He is going to do jack **** against a improved hasted paladin buffed up to nam with his gods fury in his eyes, weilding a vorpal keen +6 holy avenger. Spell turning can me taken down, resistances can be lowered, hell you could shapechange into a mind flayer and intelligence drain him, that would **** him off! All they need to do is hit him and his army of Lichs with an insect plague (area of effect) and they can cast naught spells after that." Your party has the most power items in te realms and Larloch who collects Super uber Items not been watching.... But say he did some how get 1 on 1 with Larloch I would say Larloch would teleport away....... Your party WILL have extremely powerful items, as it's their JOB to get their greedy adventuring hands on them and they do it EVERY day. They might not be a match to what Larloch has, but they won't be useless either. Besides, larloch can have a million powerful artifacts - but I say again, he can't use them all at once! "A lot of celestials are almost completely immune to magic, level drain, and anything shy of +3 attacks. This is why they are Celestials, and extremely feared by all." So your going to throw celestials at Larloch now..... ? What a complete and utter waste of a Celestial, but they would rip through his undead "army" no sweat, perhaps drawing him out. Exactly what the party wants. "I doubt Mystra would come to his rescue, but his other friends could prove problematic. However, in the thick of a battle, he might not have enough time to do everything at once, and if the PC's caught him in a confined space he can't gate in 60+ liches and then his whole dinner party list of friends." Larloch would probably teleport out or Larloch would just get 6 of his 25+ lich to fight you. remeber your party will be in a small place as well. I still dont see how they could sneak up on Larloch carry the massive magical fields their ubers cause. Thats not counting them geting past Spellweb never sleeling watch and once your inside Warloch keep the countless trap described in NEOM. That's what your portable hole is for, or whatever nifty other items the PC's have collected. I'm sure they would have to work very hard before hand coming up with a way that makes them non-detectable (i'm sure normal 1st-9th level spells won't work). Like even the safest computer system - anything can be exploited. And if Larloch teleports away, well, they have defeated him! "Again, put him in a confined space. The PC's could put up a wall of force seperating his army from him, using a cube of force. He also can't use all his artifacts at once, he only has two hands." I seem to be repeating myself alot but lets just say Larloch does teleport out but summons allies that would best fit his needs(none of the over answer to what Larloch would do in a small room). Lets say your party beats first wave Larloch summons more and more and more and more etc.... Deathfog kills all summons (but not gates) and hangs around for a while. Larloch simply wouldn't use this tactic. "Again, the PCs have the advantage of being able to prepare. They can make themselves completely immune to level drain (negative plane protection), they can all put up spell traps, summon magic eating monsters, make themselves immune to virtually all normal spells in the book, then unleash hell upon the Lichs, Spells such as holy word can deafen all the Lichs in one swoop, making them have a 50% casting failure, and there is NOTHING they can do about, insect plague across the whole battlefield, negating their ability to cast any spells, followed up by earthquakes and all sorts of nasty abilitys. The PCs at this level could even craft spells and items perfectly for this situation." Well it more tha likly that your super item covered PC will have all ready come to Larloch notic for having those super uber items. So they come to his part of the world he probably be watching them. His Lich(or over minions) probaby work out that their planing on going on super undead killing You have to keep in mind that countless people have tryed what your saying to attack larloch and none have lived. Countless people have tried yes, but there arn't countless people in the realms who are 25+ level. AFAIK This adventuring group would be the ONLY one. He would no doubt figure out they were coming after him pretty quickly, like I said earlier, they would have to plan for this and set up a trap. He only has 22 wisdom, so a high level cleric in the party could probably come up with a trap that could get him. "Humans can be raised." Yeah as Larloch undead force's....... So when all said and done Larloch probably going to be adding some more uber items to his collection. Plus have some new high level minions. Only if they all died, if one fell a simple command from a rod of ressurection would bring him back to full strength, Lich's and undead don't have this luxury. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You have to take into account that there is no group in the FR today (and I don't think Larloch would have more than 6 25LVL + Lich's or Vampires) that are all 25+ level. The Simbul is level 30, Elminster is level 29, Khelbin Blackstaff is level 27. These are some of the realms most powerful figures, and they are only a few levels shy of 25. If you're a DM and you let your PC's get to Epic levels, you have to face the fact you've now let your PCs become one of the realms most powerful groups. These guys are on the verge of godhood (Elminster was offered godhood by Ao in Spellfire, at level 29th LVL). The Knights of Myth Dranor are considered to be legendary, and they are 8th-11th level. For a lot of you in the FR, this adventuring group simply doesn't exist - so this is why you can't understand how powerful they would be, but in the original posters campaign, they DO. They would be heros talked about like Elminster, the Lords of Waterdeep, the greatest Dragons, they could go to the 666th level of the Abyss and back, they could take on the mightiest Demon and Devil princes on the prime, and is it absurd to think some mere adventures could defeat Larloch!? If you actually put them in perspective you would realise that no it isn't. Maybe a 25th level party might struggle, but a party of 30th level adventures would definately be able to accomplish this task, provided they havn't already been offered godhood. There are a lot of things you are forgetting. 1) These guys would have been some places Larloch hasn't, and gained some items that Larloch probably didn't even know existed. 2) These guys would all have innate abilities that makes them truely special, granted by their gods. Some of them might even be the chosen of their particular job, especially if it were a fighter or thief. 3) Collectively this group would border on the boundries of 30 INT and 30 WIS so they could come up with some deadly plans themselves. 4) Unless Larloch is watching them continuously (which he won't be, considering his reclusive nature), they have the advantage of preperation. They could easily send in some clones of themselves to actually guage the defenses before they go in themselves. Larloch isn't going anywhere - they have months if not years to scout, plane, probe, scribe, craft, and prepare before they strike. I don't know about you, but by former group was extremely good at figuring out loopholes, exploits, and continously surprising what I thought were full-proof plans. If they were 25th-30th level they could come up with a plan that would put Larloch in the grave through some weird method. They defeated a dragon once by getting him to swallow a folding boat, one of the party members then following it down, then expanding it once it was inside his gut. ^^^ These are the kinds of ideas that bring down the impossible foe, and Larloch is no exception.
Gotrex 09-04-03, 11:14 PM	"I mean hell, what's to stop the PC's getting together 60 Level 20+ Clerics to counter the 60 Liches?" The lack of level 20+ clerics in the realms? If you can find 60 of em chances are you can only use half because of conflicting churches " because according to Elminster disintergrate completely and utterly owns golems (read the spellfire book)" How exactly does disintegration own golems when golems are utterly immune to magic? "So have elves, dragons, and what not, but you've already stated that THEY don't have powerful items, so this point is moot, sorry" you cant contest this ed greenwood has stated as a fact that larloch has access to any magic item in any FR book (this means he probably has access to more magic items than the entire elven population) and a good amount of artifacts aswell
LordHell 09-05-03, 12:44 AM	Originally posted by Gotrex "I mean hell, what's to stop the PC's getting together 60 Level 20+ Clerics to counter the 60 Liches?" The lack of level 20+ clerics in the realms? If you can find 60 of em chances are you can only use half because of conflicting churches There is probably a sever lack of 20th + level clerics, it was a silly point anyway. 3rd edition makes this less likely. " because according to Elminster disintergrate completely and utterly owns golems (read the spellfire book)" How exactly does disintegration own golems when golems are utterly immune to magic? In that book, Elminster states disintergrate being a somewhat unfair spell for this single purpose, and uses it to disintergrate a massive magical golem the red wizards of Thay had conjured up. ed greenwood has stated as a fact that larloch has access to any magic item in any FR book (this means he probably has access to more magic items than the entire elven population) and a good amount of artifacts aswell No one is contesting that Larloch has access to any magic item and many artifacts, but with the amount of adventures the PC's have done, and the amount of wealth they would have accumulated, they too probably have access to almost every damn magical item and at least one artifact per PC.
Alratan 09-05-03, 06:02 AM	Savras said He will flee (pobably after trying a few Disjunctions at the antimagig field), and then kill than from afar. He can't cast any disjunctions, as you can't cast anything inside an antimagic field, you can only attempt to disjoin from outside the field. Remember that the PCs are unaffected by their own antimagic at this point, so can track him down easily, probably best to do it from the ethereal plane, so physical traps don't wotk. Also, Larloch has to walk out of his crypt, he can't use magic to escape, but as soon as the PCs' divination magic finds him they can gate to his location. Or, much easier, they can open a gate into the sea at the bottom of Mount Celestia, and pour unlimited amounts of holy water into the crypt, and then go ethereal+freedom of movement+xorn movement+water breathing and hunt him down. On the question of decoy phylacteries, after they have destroyed what they believe to be a phylactery, they can use forsee to check, if they ask 10 different questions whose answers each tell them whether the real phlactery was a destroyed their is a 1 in 10 billion chance in being wrong. On the subject of epic levl adventuring parties in the realms, there are some, the Risen Hand of Bane was about the right power level to do this.
Amoun 09-05-03, 10:50 AM	although I think it is useless to say anything... I will chip in my thought. First, a lot of you are comparing Larloch to a divine entity beyond the powers of other dieties.... seriously guys, Larloch while extremely powerful, is not a god (nor does he really want to become one)... Larloch also has a few loose wheels (not entirely sane), yes I realize this does not prevent him from hatching amazingly intelligent plans that no one in the real world could even dream up of. Another comment, just cause the adventurers entered the Warlock's crypt doesnt mean Larloch will do anything... in fact, unless they come and bother him in his tower or destroy too many of his minions, he won't lift a finger... he is too immersed in his research and work. Oh yes, the likelihood of Mystra coming to protect him well... its not really existant. A lot of you also over-estimate epic level parties... trust me 25th level guys would not stand much of a chance... realistically though a 30th lvl party would have a fighting chance against Larloch.... Now if you want to be annoying and really exploit stuff then you can actually destroy Larloch and all his crypt and his army with just one spell... and the beauty, well you only have to be 1st level... I will tell you all a secret, epic level spell... I will tell you another secret, additional casters... add 400 1st lvl wizards/sorcerers/clerics and you'd be really really amazed at what you can do... the beauty if you do it right, you dont have to enter the crypt, and it will only cost you 9000 gp, and 360 xp to develop the spell. This is of course if you really want to exploit the rules, and by the way, most people dont expect someone to cast an uber epic spell... before you guys say anything about Mystra saying no to the spell, or Larloch coming up from his crypt to kill the casters before they finish... all I have to say is... Mystra probably wont disallow the spell unless it threatens the very weave or the world (a very damaging spell within a very limited area wouldnt cut it), you could make the casting time of your ritual 6 seconds... I am sorry but Larloch wont be able to come that soon... six seconds guys.. its really nothing... and this is if you want to exploit the epic system heh.... What I am really trying to get at is that Larloch is not invincible, and with the right amount of preparation he is very defeatable... Anyone that says Larloch shouldnt be able to be destroyed as he is one of the pillars of FR, well I'd just have to disagree. The only pillar of FR is to have fun, if you have fun with your campaign it really doesnt matter if you roll play or roleplay, become powerful or never reach those epic proportions. Also every FR campaign should be different, each should be tailored for each diverse group... Most important thing of D&D and FRC is to have fun period. So I will end here, trying to tell you all... nothing is impossible, stuff can be extremely hard, and highly improbable... but it still can be done... and each Forgotten Realms campaign should be tailored to the players in it, the point is to have fun... now get off your lazy asses and go have fun DA.MN IT! There :P go have fun
Savras 09-05-03, 10:56 AM	I won't disect the posts right now (I'll get to it, worry not), but I find it odd that every PC (and dragon, and elf city) has an artifact. Or more. ??? How many artifacts are out there, in your opinion? If, at 25th level, every PC has at least one artifact, then well, good for you... but I do not really think it should work that way. Each to his own, though. Whatever rocks your boat. Savras
kedi 09-05-03, 11:03 AM	ooc: savras, elves and dragons has the knowledge of epic spells, elves: that's what Elven High Mage created for, if you have the RoF, check the appendix dragons: in 2ed, there were some dragon king spells above 10th level and normally casted (a.k.a. epic spells in 3ed) just wanted to correct. but they don't know every crafted spells and for reasons you explained above, they can't be compared to the shadow king
Savras 09-05-03, 11:23 AM	Originally posted by kedi ooc: savras, elves and dragons has the knowledge of epic spells, elves: that's what Elven High Mage created for, if you have the RoF, check the appendix dragons: in 2ed, there were some dragon king spells above 10th level and normally casted (a.k.a. epic spells in 3ed) just wanted to correct. but they don't know every crafted spells and for reasons you explained above, they can't be compared to the shadow king Yes, I know that Elves (and some drgaonos) have Epic Spells. As an example, just look at the Srinshee, which, if I remember correctly, can whoop Elminster around without any effort, and has the Coronal's Blade, with the sentiance (sp) of several High Mages. However, not every elf has them (while every Larloch doeshttp://www.geocities.com/flammabledragon/Savarasrazz.TXT). However, I will admit goofy post on my part. Alas, eloquency isn't very easy... dragons: in 2ed, there were some dragon king spells above 10th level and normally casted (a.k.a. epic spells in 3ed) just wanted to correct. Dragon Kings??? That's from Athas, me lad. Nothing to do with this. You could mention Inferno as an Epic spell caster dragon. Savras P.S.: Out of what Character? (OOC=Out of Character)
Israfel666 09-05-03, 11:51 AM	Originally posted by Savras As an example, just look at the Srinshee, which, if I remember correctly, can whoop Elminster around without any effort, and has the Coronal's Blade, with the sentiance (sp) of several High Mages. Aren't those essences contained in the selu'kiira in the Highfire Crown (as by The Fall of Myth Drannor)? Have there been new developments and/or more recent events involving the Srinshee?
Pandelume 09-06-03, 12:10 PM	"Before I comment on your individual points, I would like to comment about the thing a lot of you are relying on. Larloch and his 60+ Archliches... as if they are this undefeatable force. Unless the PC's find themselves trapped out in the open (highly unlikely) then the 60+ Archliches won't be much of a problem. Unless Larloch is onto them from the very beginning, they can plan around the 60+ ArchLiches, they could send a distraction to get rid of them, clones of themselves, or simply retreat into an area where they arn't subjective to 60+ magical attacks a round. A frontal attack would be suicide, no one is even contemplating this, so unless Larloch constantly hangs around huge open areas then the 60+ Liches are not even going to come into play. Don't even bother with the vampires as they probably won't even be able to HIT PC's of this level. I mean hell, what's to stop the PC's getting together 60 Level 20+ Clerics to counter the 60 Liches? " Ok and you relying on geting Larloch in a small area........ But since you don't seem to know much about Warlocks Crypt I think its best if I flesh out the genereal design of the place. Its a fallen Netheril Enclave(flying city) so probably has some banned magical protections still working. But once your inside Warlocks Crypt the only way to move from one area to the next is thought portals. That take you deeper and deeper into the Cypt. It would be easy for Larloch master of portal master to re-direct the portals on the fly. So you might be sent to Abyss or the elemtal plane of fire etc. They could even send you a open wide space what for some reasom you think its key to Larloch wining. Before you say my player could use the sewers, Netheril enclave dumped all the trash in planes(thought portals that no longer work). As for Lich all having the same weakness they can still live throw alot more than humans(elves etc). Plus these lich probably have access to the same spells as Larloch. They all so probably have their own uber items. As for Larloch knowing their plan as I said in my last post if party that seem to be designed to kill undead. Comes near his Cypt I think he might think somethign a foot. ...... "Larloch has taken 2000 years to get to 32nd level, he is hardly going to hit 40+ after another 40 years, and in 3.0+ edition it is highly unlikely he will advance any further at all. (What is going to be a challange?)" No..... Larloch been a level 46(highst known level). I would say 90% of FR fan's guess that Larloch lost levels casting a massive spell of late. Then again since Larloch been out the spot light for a while Wotc probably did not re-stat him well in LOD. But as a DM if you think Larloch should not gain any levels that your choice. I am just pointing Larloch level have been goign up and down for a while. If you had told me per LOD that Larloch would have lost 14 epic level I would have laughted. :D ........ "My Original point was that just because Larloch is 2000 years old doesn't mean didly squat. A lot of you were using this as some sort of trump card saying he has everything and anything at his disposal due to his age. I simply stated this was incorrect due to the fact that Elves and Dragons can be equally as old and never reach the power levels Larloch has, so age has nothing to do with it. As for my other comment, vampires can only operate in the Dark, which means they have a major weakness and a epic level party could easily use this exploit to their advantage, making even 1 billion vampires a moot point." Yes Larloch 2000+ and their are over things older or the same ages that have not got as many spells\items. A Dragon is not a Archwizard who spent ever secound of his life(well since he became a caster) focused on Art (Dragon don't have 60+ epic research assisstance as well). Same for Elves same point applys to the elves really. As for vampires True, so they have to cast some super uber epic level darkness spells. Plus I thought your plan was to get Larloch some how in a small room. Should be dark in their or are you talking about spells. .............. "The Vampires are a moot point, and Larloch has 60+ LICHES over level 20, that does not equal a PARTY over level 25, and all 60 couldn't attack them anyway. A party of 25+ level is something far different to a group of undead lichs who all share the same strengths and same weakness. You can't simply counter a epic level party with a single group of Lichs, you'll need Lichs + Fighters + Rogues + Bards to effectively do that, and since that is comprimised of vampires, which can be taken out of action with daylight, you are at a disadvantage." Vampire(these vampire will probably be spell casters as well 20+) are not moot. Combined with Lich and lesser undead I would not call them moot. In the fictional realms or in the hands of a DM who thouhgt about it they would not be moot. So you mean Daylight as in a spell of some sort or daylight. ? As for Fighters and rogues and bards Larloch has all the adventers that came before you. As Golems and horders of over monsters. ............ "There is no other group on that would be as powerful as this party. That is why they are probably the only ones with a chance. Just because Mystra does not mind him much, doesn't mean she will save his bacon. She probably doesn't mind the mage(s) in the party much either." I am not sayig Mystra would save Larloch I am just saying if Mystra grants him powers. He going to have more power than normal level 32 casters. Also he would not be a key target for the death squad that is the chosen. ......... "They have no weakness! They cover all the spectrum of abilities. Fighting, Stealth, Arcane Magic, Divine Magic, Hell, they could probably conjure up some clones and stash them away incase they die. This tactic makes Manshoon virtually immortal and he is only 19th level!" Read above, and he probably does have clones - making him very tricky to kill" We seem to be goign over the same points..... Anyway I think what you mean to say is some party members have area covered and they could easyly be split going into the Cypt. Moving walls, re-directed portals floor that act like quick sand etc. Plus by the time they get to Larloch(in this tiny room Larloch for some reason is waiting for them in lol) alot of spells would have been used up and spell wearing off. .................. "Humans (especially fighters) can stand much more physical pain that Liches, and are more durable. Larloch would turn them into undead minions only if they ALL died, I'm sure each and every other one of them is armed with a rod of ressurection otherwise, so even if there is one still standing he can raise his fallen comrads far quicker than Larloch can turn them into undead." For one thing Lichs don't feel pain..... lets say that for some reason the Lich have no meat at all shields. They have massive amout of all protection spells and protection items Ioun stones etc. Your groups Wizard going to have a hell of time dispeling all these protection spells as well rezing and attacking. Larloch been dealing with would be adventing slaying partys for 2000+ years. Easy really get lich to focus on one target as soon he\she down cast timestop followed by the transmation spell. Larloch might even have a item for doing it(like Lord Shadow) or a set in montion level 11 spell that was cast before the fall that would do it auto. ............ "He probably does have some very strong protections that are meat shields, something the PC's will have to be weary of. Golems arn't much of a problem though, because according to Elminster disintergrate completely and utterly owns golems (read the spellfire book). I'm not sure if this is still the case in 3.0E - but even if it is, golems all have glaring weaknesses, hell, the PC's could bring an army of golems along as well stuffed away in a folding boat or what not." Good you agree on the unknown strong protection Larloch probably has. So while fighting vampires, lichs and fallen Adventures and probably 20 000+ less undead. Their going to have spell slots left open to for the pure goal of kill golems. ........... "Any complex and any situation can be dealt with with a portable hole - don't leave home without one." good of Larloch to give the party time to use on the vast amout of time they need to use it. Going thought the spell web. ............. "Vampires are moot, lesser undead are moot, you'd be stupid to come across 60+ liches at once, and he probably has similar items, but the PCs will still be able to craft items that he will NOT have, and vise versa." I can't believe you keep calling 20+ epic level vampires moot. Plus Larloch has alots of monster alive and undead to work with. That the point Larloch does attack on mass with lichs. You probably will not see the big 60 right off probably lesser lichs that where never Archwizard still Lichs. ................ "Larloch and his minions have been researching and making an hunting for items. for 2000+ years. Larloch even read the Neth scrolls...." "So have elves, dragons, and what not, but you've already stated that THEY don't have powerful items, so this point is moot, sorry." Dragon have not read the Neth scrolls while its true some elves have one set of Neth scrolls. Larloch is probably the greatst caster the the realms has ever seen(leaving out some of the over dead Archwizards). But talked about dragon above, As a side note creeping doom is the greatst spell casting dragon living or dead and he only 20 wizard, 20 sorcerer . ............. "So your party facing 60+ Lichs(we leave out vampires etc) their all goign to fall for the same attack. ?" "They all have the same weakness, so why not?" All I can say about your reply to that is LOL(sort of like some dumb and dumeber movie hehe). :D *Side note: I was only using the brief collect of Larloch minions that could cast spells, Vampires and Lich to are the main ones* ............. "Your party WILL have extremely powerful items, as it's their JOB to get their greedy adventuring hands on them and they do it EVERY day. They might not be a match to what Larloch has, but they won't be useless either. Besides, larloch can have a million powerful artifacts - but I say again, he can't use them all at once!" I thought it was their job to role play then again if you want to run a powergaming game go for it. He can he has like 60+ lichs he can load out as well. Mind you their probably have their own uber items(artifacts ) anyway these guys are Archwizard after all. .................... "What a complete and utter waste of a Celestial, but they would rip through his undead "army" no sweat, perhaps drawing him out. Exactly what the party wants." I still can't work out why your draging warriors of the gods into this. Still dispel Summoned should work fine. Beside I thought you wanted to draw him in(you know to that tiny room) .................. "That's what your portable hole is for, or whatever nifty other items the PC's have collected. I'm sure they would have to work very hard before hand coming up with a way that makes them non-detectable (i'm sure normal 1st-9th level spells won't work). Like even the safest computer system - anything can be exploited. And if Larloch teleports away, well, they have defeated him!" Sure all ready commented on this agruemnt and covering above posts. As for defeating him well done now you have Larloch after you all the time and your loved onces etc..... ............... "Deathfog kills all summons (but not gates) and hangs around for a while. Larloch simply wouldn't use this tactic." Yeah you lose all your summons as well sure that you where realying on them........ ................. "Countless people have tried yes, but there arn't countless people in the realms who are 25+ level. AFAIK This adventuring group would be the ONLY one. He would no doubt figure out they were coming after him pretty quickly, like I said earlier, they would have to plan for this and set up a trap. He only has 22 wisdom, so a high level cleric in the party could probably come up with a trap that could get him." Larloch does not get traped he does not want anything he happy to sit their. If wants something he waits till peopel like Tam come along and then get them to do it. Plus he has a 34 int and can probably cast divieing spells much better than the PC's. ........................ "You have to take into account that there is no group in the FR today (and I don't think Larloch would have more than 6 25LVL + Lich's or Vampires) that are all 25+ level. The Simbul is level 30, Elminster is level 29, Khelbin Blackstaff is level 27. These are some of the realms most powerful figures, and they are only a few levels shy of 25. If you're a DM and you let your PC's get to Epic levels, you have to face the fact you've now let your PCs become one of the realms most powerful groups. These guys are on the verge of godhood (Elminster was offered godhood by Ao in Spellfire, at level 29th LVL). The Knights of Myth Dranor are considered to be legendary, and they are 8th-11th level. For a lot of you in the FR, this adventuring group simply doesn't exist - so this is why you can't understand how powerful they would be, but in the original posters campaign, they DO. They would be heros talked about like Elminster, the Lords of Waterdeep, the greatest Dragons, they could go to the 666th level of the Abyss and back, they could take on the mightiest Demon and Devil princes on the prime, and is it absurd to think some mere adventures could defeat Larloch!? If you actually put them in perspective you would realise that no it isn't. Maybe a 25th level party might struggle, but a party of 30th level adventures would definately be able to accomplish this task, provided they havn't already been offered godhood. There are a lot of things you are forgetting. 1) These guys would have been some places Larloch hasn't, and gained some items that Larloch probably didn't even know existed. 2) These guys would all have innate abilities that makes them truely special, granted by their gods. Some of them might even be the chosen of their particular job, especially if it were a fighter or thief. 3) Collectively this group would border on the boundries of 30 INT and 30 WIS so they could come up with some deadly plans themselves. 4) Unless Larloch is watching them continuously (which he won't be, considering his reclusive nature), they have the advantage of preperation. They could easily send in some clones of themselves to actually guage the defenses before they go in themselves. Larloch isn't going anywhere - they have months if not years to scout, plane, probe, scribe, craft, and prepare before they strike. I don't know about you, but by former group was extremely good at figuring out loopholes, exploits, and continously surprising what I thought were full-proof plans. If they were 25th-30th level they could come up with a plan that would put Larloch in the grave through some weird method. They defeated a dragon once by getting him to swallow a folding boat, one of the party members then following it down, then expanding it once it was inside his gut. ^^^ These are the kinds of ideas that bring down the impossible foe, and Larloch is no exception." So your saying gods now and sending their avater to kill Larloch I would say. Gods have over gods to think about. Why do think that ever god in FR just does not go in avater form and wipe out citys and people all the time. Point is Larloch does have over "6 25LVL + Lich's or Vampires" Think about its been stated that Larloch could take over the world if wanted to.... Hell he could even become a god if he wanted...... "1) These guys would have been some places Larloch hasn't, and gained some items that Larloch probably didn't even know existed." I would say that most uber items in the realms come from Netheril or Imaskeri. So yes Larloch might not know about the Imaskeri items. Probably then again he might..... "2) These guys would all have innate abilities that makes them truely special, granted by their gods. Some of them might even be the chosen of their particular job, especially if it were a fighter or thief." Well if they where chosen or have been granted special powers like Larloch himself. Then it would be hard to RP how all these PC's keep going focused. After all Gods don't give power to people for the hell of it. "3) Collectively this group would border on the boundries of 30 INT and 30 WIS so they could come up with some deadly plans themselves." True but would Larloch fall for it in the fictional sense of the chareactor. Not just some DM who lets his players powergame. "4) Unless Larloch is watching them continuously (which he won't be, considering his reclusive nature), they have the advantage of preperation. They could easily send in some clones of themselves to actually guage the defenses before they go in themselves." Point is Larloch does not need to watch them all the time that what he has minions for. As I said before a group of super power undead bashing party. Would be something Larloch would want a eye kept on. Lets just say your party has noting better to do for 5 years or so over than to "scout, plane, probe, scribe, craft, and prepare" All of which would bring them closer to Larloch attention. Larloch could plan as well since basic plan it would not take long to put in to effect. He could apper to the party as a projection as soon as they entered the cypt. Show them a projection of a city or people they care about. Say something like Drop your weapons or I drop a plague etc on them now. If your party is good would they let this happen.... ? Larloch would not even need to fight them then. My view on Larloch come a Fictional sense on Larloch as he shown in FR fiction. Any DM that RP their npc well would follow. But if you want to play some sort of Diablo like AI controled game where monster just go runing party thats your choice.
Pandelume 09-08-03, 01:04 PM	Do you think the pro-Larloch faction(I can think of a better world for it) won. ?
kedi 09-08-03, 02:43 PM	Savras read this, im in your place :devil: Killing Lorloch FAQs "I wonder how powerfull lorloch is" well, he is one of the eldest non-dragon beings in Faerun, hes from Netheril and he read some of the nether scrolls, think of the rest "But he is an undead, right? So he has some undead weaknesses" You can call weakness, but he has some artifacts sucn as "Talisman of the Orcus" (orcus is the god of undeads towho doesn't know) and "all" non artifact items, "all" man, he has your +6 sword "ALL the non artifact items? kiddin me?" No, not really, he lives more than 2000 years and he collects them from his rivals or creates them, hes level 37 and he has a CR of 39, same as the elminster "But if we make a great plan and track him down?" Well, you need a 35< int for such thing, godly int i mean because he is smarter than following gods: Bhaal, Sune, Bane, Tempus, Chauntae and many i don't recall "But its posible, 16 int wizard in 1st level and than hes 40th level, he spents all his scores to int which makes 26 and he has a headband of int +6 so 32...." Remember the part i told that he hass all the non artifact items? his int is 34 without wearing a headband, you think of the rest. "But if i go there with an army of dragons and elves and high mages, i can get him right?" Yer dancing with an uber-powerful-evil man, he has: 60 liches and their level is 25+ positively 150+ Vampires level is 20+ Many greater undead(500+) level 15+ thousands of normal undead level 9/10+ zillions of lesser undead level 5+ he has control of red wizards (because Szazz tam is a loyal to him and all the red wizards are loyal to szass) and he has all the non artifact items so he can give them to his personal army and so kaboom! and you really think that the wyrm dragons or high elves care to kill a super evil man? "But many posted that opening a gate and sending some holy water, whats your testify?" if such thing was posibly, it would happen right? lets say its posible, what's lorloch doing in the mean time, watching cartoons? 34 INT FOR GOD SAKE DON'T MAKE USELESS PLANS! "Yaw man, i call it rage, but what can he possibly plan to do in such time?" I don't know, I max have an int of 15 :smirk: but the DM should consider that the lorloch knows %98,25 of the pcs plan/or prepared for such thing, "But yer missing something, 30+ 4 people is not stupid" yes but definietly 25+ 60 lich and a 37 uber-lich is not stupid, did you considered this? "you might be right, but 10 35+ paladin attacks to larloch..." wait a second, they're not spellcasters, the liches could kill them easily with their spells "ok than 10 35+ wizard attacks...." Why should a wizard attack to his keep? OK good magical items and stuff are tasty but i thought that wizards were intelligent, and he has a horde-at-arm, so wizards can't do anything "Darn you kedi! ok, 10 paladin and 10 wizards all above 35, go on suker!" don't be rude, if such army attacked the kee, they would select the plan b... "What's plan b?" They would teleport out of the keep and some usefull minions and destruy the whole keep after that. "So you say that Lorloch is invincible" No person is invincible, a greater gos can kill a person with just thinking "So yu recommend us to kill gods before we kill lorloch?:eek: no, but thats a good idea since lorloch is more intelligent then many gods
Ulmo 09-08-03, 02:57 PM	I've read James Joyce, and to be honest, Finnegan's Wake was more intelligible than that last post Kedi. Just a suggestion: next time you post, try running your post by a friend or perhaps a teacher and see if they can understand it. Editing and revision are important components of the wrting process and the earlier one gets in the habit, the easier it is to do so later in life. :teach: Also, I think I may need to call in the SPCA to picket this thread, as I think most people think horses this dead shouldn't be beaten.
Shavit 09-08-03, 03:09 PM	Ulmo you're just mad that Kedi summed it up nicely I really think SOMEONE should LOCK this topic since it's no win situation
Israfel666 09-08-03, 03:21 PM	Very funny post, kedi!! Ok, I'm in a nitpicking mood... You can call weakness, but he has some artifacts sucn as "Talisman of the Orcus" (orcus is the god of undeads towho doesn't know) and "all" non artifact items, "all" man, he has your +6 sword Orcus is not a god, he's a demon lord who has proclaimed himself Lord of the Undead. As for "all" nonartifact item, watch out. LoD says "3.000.000 gp in magic items and treasure". That number is far less than you can think. A simple +6 weapon costs 720.000 gp. If you want to get even remotely near the claim of "all non-artifact weapons", he will have NO EPIC ITEM whatsoever. And epic items (which the party WILL have) are often as powerful as minor artifacts, some even as major (Cuthbert's Mace, a "major artifact", is just a +11 weapon with a command-word spell at will. That's far from beyond the range of epic items. I don't like this too, but such is the mess that comes into play when you use Epic level rules) No, not really, he lives more than 2000 years and he collects them from his rivals or creates them, hes level 17 and he has a CR of 39, same as the elminster He is level 32 (Wiz20/Epic12), probably more if you use his ELH-revised version (which I don't know) Remember the part i told that he hass all the non artifact items? his int is 34 without wearing a headband, you think of the rest. He may not wear a headband, but he has a Ioun Stone which grants a +6 bonus to Int, ie same as a headband. 18 base plus 8 level increase plus 6 ioun stone, that's 32, he just had to cast Wish twice. 60 liches and their level is 25+ positively 150+ Vampires level is 20+ Many greater undead(500+) level 15+ thousands of normal undead level 9/10+ zillions of lesser undead level 5+ Where do those figures come from? Here's what Lords of Darkness says on the matter, literal quote: "The Shadow King... now rules the Warlock's Crypt... and its inhabitants - liches (many from Netheril), vampires, wights, and lesser undead." Unless you can produce other sources, those numbers are pure speculation.
Savras 09-08-03, 03:59 PM	Originally posted by Israfel666 [B]Very funny post, kedi!! Ok, I'm in a nitpicking mood... Orcus is not a god, he's a demon lord who has proclaimed himself Lord of the Undead. Errr... wrong. I refer you to Faiths and Pantheons, pg 221, table- Monster Deities. 10th from the bottom you'll see Orcus, Lesser God. CE, Favored Weapon- Mace, the Domains of Chaos, Death, Evil, Undeath; symbol- skull topped wand, portfolio- Undead, worshiped by "cultists, death worshipers". Nitpicky, but wrong. OK, I thank Pandelume for his post, but I will also reply. Notice- our answers might overlap, though, as of now, I haven't read his post. If I get stuck, though, I'll see what he said :devil: Savras
Gotrex 09-08-03, 04:26 PM	"As for "all" nonartifact item, watch out. LoD says "3.000.000 gp in magic items and treasure". That number is far less than you can think. A simple +6 weapon costs 720.000 gp. If you want to get even remotely near the claim of "all non-artifact weapons", he will have NO EPIC ITEM whatsoever. And epic items (which the party WILL have) are often as powerful as minor artifacts, some even as major (Cuthbert's Mace, a "major artifact", is just a +11 weapon with a command-word spell at will. That's far from beyond the range of epic items. I don't like this too, but such is the mess that comes into play when you use Epic level rules)" you have a point it all comes down to who you belive is correct Lords of darkness (who say he has 3 million worth) or ed greenwood (who sais he has everything) personaly i go with greenwood considering the realms are his creation n all :P
Savras 09-08-03, 04:43 PM	Originally posted by LordHell Before I comment on your individual points, I would like to comment about the thing a lot of you are relying on. Larloch and his 60+ Archliches... as if they are this undefeatable force. Unless the PC's find themselves trapped out in the open (highly unlikely) then the 60+ Archliches won't be much of a problem. Room? What room? Larloch is not going to stay in his room if he's attacked. Quickned Teleport and he's off to somewhere useful. Like, the courtyard. Oh, maybe he'll blast them with something and *then* use quickened Teleport. Unless Larloch is onto them from the very beginning, they can plan around the 60+ ArchLiches, they could send a distraction to get rid of them, clones of themselves, or simply retreat into an area where they arn't subjective to 60+ magical attacks a round. A distraction that the ARMY of lesser undead can't take care off? Anyway, the PCs retreat, Larloch doesn't chase them, they didn't accomplish their goal, I win. A frontal attack would be suicide, no one is even contemplating this, so unless Larloch constantly hangs around huge open areas then the 60+ Liches are not even going to come into play. Don't even bother with the vampires as they probably won't even be able to HIT PC's of this level. Larloch can *MOVE*. He can get to any spot on Abeir-Toril in less then a round, or across planar boundries and anywhere on *that* plane in two rounds or less. He won't stay when he hasn't got an immense, overwhelming force. I mean hell, what's to stop the PC's getting together 60 Level 20+ Clerics to counter the 60 Liches? Errr... which faith has 60 level 20+ clerics? Even IF there are 60 20+ clrs in Faerûn, will they all work together? I mean, you have trouble getting a Tymoran and a Tyran work together, and a Helmite with a Tormite, add a Banite in and you got a holy war... in your army! So, it wouldn't work. How do your PCs level? Anyway, he might travel to an outer plane and take out a mighty being, no problem. [quote]My Original point was that just because Larloch is 2000 years old doesn't mean didly squat. A lot of you were using this as some sort of trump card saying he has everything and anything at his disposal due to his age. Firsy, it means he had a *lot* of time to think of plans, about anything. Second, he has most anything in his disposal- he saw it all, he created a lot, fought a lot, and so on. I simply stated this was incorrect due to the fact that Elves and Dragons can be equally as old and never reach the power levels Larloch has, so age has nothing to do with it. Just for common knowledge, which elves, exactly, aer 2000 years old? Which dragons? 'Cause in FR, dragons do die of Old Age- almost right after they hit 1,200. For more, read of The Wyrm that Hides in Blades in the FRCS- he is looking for IMMORTALITY, ergo, dragons are mortal. As for my other comment, vampires can only operate in the Dark, which means they have a major weakness and a epic level party could easily use this exploit to their advantage, making even 1 billion vampires a moot point. I once saw a ring of Night's Mantle, though I can't find it now... if anyone knows where it is, please do tell. A party of 25+ level is something far different to a group of undead lichs who all share the same strengths and same weakness. Wrong. Spell selection. Epic spell selection. O, and throw in diffrent magical artifacts, and see how one lich is untouchable, immune to any attack, yet not very offensive, while another is a whiriwind of spells, a third master of illusions... now add feat selection too, and see how they all drastically differ from one another. You can't simply counter a epic level party with a single group of Lichs, you'll need Lichs + Fighters + Rogues + Bards to effectively do that, and since that is comprimised of vampires, which can be taken out of action with daylight, you are at a disadvantage. As I explained above, the Epic Wiz can do everything with the right spell selection. Anyway, it's enough for Larloch to casr Epic Darkness that allows Undead to see through it and, *wham*, see those Vamps going! There is no other group on that would be as powerful as this party. That is why they are probably the only ones with a chance. Just because Mystra does not mind him much, doesn't mean she will save his bacon. She probably doesn't mind the mage(s) in the party much either. Errr... true. Good thing he doesn't need Mystra :P. Anyway, I dunno... there's an Epic group, Seth's Fangs or suchlike, a bunch of insanely powerful mates... don't know much about them, though. Humans (especially fighters) can stand much more physical pain that Liches, and are more durable. Larloch would turn them into undead minions only if they ALL died, I'm sure each and every other one of them is armed with a rod of ressurection otherwise, so even if there is one still standing he can raise his fallen comrads far quicker than Larloch can turn them into undead. Actually, liches has a better HD. And no, he might raise them in the middle of the battle just to make them fight their comtads. And once one is dead, I am willing to bet one lich will trap his soul, so no ressuruction will happen. He probably does have some very strong protections that are meat shields, something the PC's will have to be weary of. Golems arn't much of a problem though, because according to Elminster disintergrate completely and utterly owns golems (read the spellfire book). I'm not sure if this is still the case in 3.0E - but even if it is, golems all have glaring weaknesses, hell, the PC's could bring an army of golems along as well stuffed away in a folding boat or what not. I do not think you can hold stuff in a folding boat. And if you can, you can bet Larloch and his 60+ liches also have Disintigrate. And I do not think it works, anyway. And Larloch will have a *powerful* golem, not your regular out-of-the-MM golem. Any complex and any situation can be dealt with with a portable hole - don't leave home without one. Errr... OK... you are aware you have to *dig in it for what you want*, right? Still as useful? 'Cause *I* see a hole, and things flying out of it, with five bodies lieing around, and a big baddy standing nearby, while from the hole someone says "Be right with you, lads, just hold him a little more, who the hell brought all those weapons anyway? OUCH! That's the fourth sword cut! Where is that stupid staff???" Your party WILL have extremely powerful items, as it's their JOB to get their greedy adventuring hands on them and they do it EVERY day. They might not be a match to what Larloch has, but they won't be useless either. Besides, larloch can have a million powerful artifacts - but I say again, he can't use them all at once! He'll give some to his liches. Like even the safest computer system - anything can be exploited. And if Larloch teleports away, well, they have defeated him! No, they have survived. And will die later, in his retaliation. Countless people have tried yes, but there arn't countless people in the realms who are 25+ level. AFAIK This adventuring group would be the ONLY one. He would no doubt figure out they were coming after him pretty quickly, like I said earlier, they would have to plan for this and set up a trap. He only has 22 wisdom, so a high level cleric in the party could probably come up with a trap that could get him. Traps are Int (traps of the "Think of something useful to draw X to spot Y", or anything that requires planning), Only if they all died, if one fell a simple command from a rod of ressurection would bring him back to full strength, Lich's and undead don't have this luxury. A. They can be brought back to life. B. They have phylacteries. C. They will use Trap the Soul, no ressuruction. 1) These guys would have been some places Larloch hasn't, and gained some items that Larloch probably didn't even know existed. Highly unlikely. Larloch did traverse the planes (unless he's dumb like Hell, which he ain't). 2) These guys would all have innate abilities that makes them truely special, granted by their gods. Some of them might even be the chosen of their particular job, especially if it were a fighter or thief. ??? Only *if*, not a necessity for an Epic campaign. Even if so, OK. 3) Collectively this group would border on the boundries of 30 INT and 30 WIS so they could come up with some deadly plans themselves. Collectively, 200 hundred 40 monkies have an Int of 80! http://www.geocities.com/flammabledragon/savaraseek.TXT They can take over the world! http://www.geocities.com/sirgrimsage/Smilies/Savrasrolleyes.txt [/Sarcasm] Collectively doesn't work. 4) Unless Larloch is watching them continuously (which he won't be, considering his reclusive nature), they have the advantage of preperation. They could easily send in some clones of themselves to actually guage the defenses before they go in themselves. OK, their clones'll die. Yay. Anyway, reclusive means he isn't going out much, not that he doesn't take an interest. Larloch isn't going anywhere - they have months if not years to scout, plane, probe, scribe, craft, and prepare before they strike. Sure. And all that time the Shadow King does the same to them, 'cause he *will* notice their attmepts. And he will win in a battle of wits. I don't know about you, but by former group was extremely good at figuring out loopholes, exploits, and continously surprising what I thought were full-proof plans. If they were 25th-30th level they could come up with a plan that would put Larloch in the grave through some weird method. They defeated a dragon once by getting him to swallow a folding boat, one of the party members then following it down, then expanding it once it was inside his gut. ^^^ These are the kinds of ideas that bring down the impossible foe, and Larloch is no exception. Then bring them here. Well, it seems like I answered the wrong post. If you still want me to answer the correct one, I'm game. Savras
Dorlomin 09-08-03, 04:44 PM	Originally posted by Israfel666 Where do those figures come from? Here's what Lords of Darkness says on the matter, literal quote: "The Shadow King... now rules the Warlock's Crypt... and its inhabitants - liches (many from Netheril), vampires, wights, and lesser undead." Unless you can produce other sources, those numbers are pure speculation. I completely agree. 60+ Liches??? Not too Likely (except in a munchkin campaign). But it's all conjecture, and it's SUPPOSED to be that way. It's left open for the DM to create and interpret as he/she sees fit in his/her own campaign. It all boils down to whatever would challenge the PC's in your own campaign, and what you want to do in it. Anything else is all spectulative BS really... :angel:
KRONOS 09-08-03, 04:45 PM	Also, I think I may need to call in the SPCA to picket this thread, as I think most people think horses this dead shouldn't be beaten. I am going to have to second ULMO's motion. I thank everyone who put in their two cents. But this has just turned in to a light "I'm right, your wrong" thread. Being the original poster, I think I have all that I need if my party proceeds with their idea. Thanks again for the help. Kronos
Savras 09-08-03, 04:47 PM	Originally posted by Israfel666 Aren't those essences contained in the selu'kiira in the Highfire Crown (as by The Fall of Myth Drannor)? Have there been new developments and/or more recent events involving the Srinshee? WOW, truth to be told, I haven't a clue. You are right, I guess. So in the crown, not the sword. What does the sword do? Savras P.S.: She appears in El In Hell, she's back into the realms as a 10 year old elf girl with the Srinshee's mind... And she is about to appaer in some novels, as per Rich.
Savras 09-08-03, 04:49 PM	For your information, the 60+ number came from Ed Greenwood. As he is the one that created the realms, and Larloch, I take his word. Savras
Israfel666 09-08-03, 06:34 PM	Originally posted by Savras For your information, the 60+ number came from Ed Greenwood. Which strengthens the theory that Ed Greenwood is the first and foremost D&D munchkin the world has known (;) see Dorlomin's post). I'll forgive him only because he created FR :angel:
LordHell 09-08-03, 06:38 PM	argh double post *deleted*
LordHell 09-08-03, 06:44 PM	Originally posted by Savras Room? What room? Larloch is not going to stay in his room if he's attacked. Quickned Teleport and he's off to somewhere useful. Like, the courtyard. Oh, maybe he'll blast them with something and *then* use quickened Teleport. You seem to be forgetting the PCs can teleport too. A distraction that the ARMY of lesser undead can't take care off? Anyway, the PCs retreat, Larloch doesn't chase them, they didn't accomplish their goal, I win. Unless Larloch lives in a cavern the size of the underdark (which he doesn't), the army factor will never apply. Larloch can *MOVE*. He can get to any spot on Abeir-Toril in less then a round, or across planar boundries and anywhere on *that* plane in two rounds or less. He won't stay when he hasn't got an immense, overwhelming force. If he flees he has been defeated (not killed), and then the PC's will happily loot his crypt while he's gone, probably casting a few surprizes for him upon his return. Besides, you seem to be forgetting the PC's can probably planar travel too. Errr... which faith has 60 level 20+ clerics? Even IF there are 60 20+ clrs in Faerûn, will they all work together? I mean, you have trouble getting a Tymoran and a Tyran work together, and a Helmite with a Tormite, add a Banite in and you got a holy war... in your army! So, it wouldn't work. That WAS a silly point, I have already admitted that. [quote[Larloch has taken 2000 years to get to 32nd level, he is hardly going to hit 40+ after another 40 years, and in 3.0+ edition it is highly unlikely he will advance any further at all. (What is going to be a challange?) How do your PCs level? Anyway, he might travel to an outer plane and take out a mighty being, no problem. Yeah right. First you say he is reclusive, then you say he is actively seeking out adventure? Make up your mind And if he took out something "no problem" he would gain virtually 0 experiance for it. That is how the 3rd edition rules work. In order for him to actually advance he would have to take out "challanging" creatures, in which case there is a large chance of him being defeated, again, this is how the 3rd edition rules work. If you were to use 2nd edition rules, well, it takes a few million XP to advance when you are that level, and there are hardly anythings out there that would provided him enough XP. Demogorgon for example, in 2nd edition, was worth around 100,000XP (approximately) to slay on the Prime, and would be one of the most powerful creatures you could slay (even more powerful than Larloch). What's Larloch going to fight that's going to advance him? Firsy, it means he had a *lot* of time to think of plans, about anything. A lot of Gods have had *a lot* of time to think of plans too, that have failed. Even with 32 INT you can't think of everything. Besides - unless the PC's started blatantly massing an army, with his already stated reclusive nature, it is UNLIKELY he will be onto them. Second, he has most anything in his disposal- he saw it all, he created a lot, fought a lot, and so on. He does not have almost anything at his disposal, there are a good many powerful magical items and artifacts that an undead and/or Lich CAN NOT USE. He would have been there done that however, I do agree with you, but despite all his experiance and power and intelligence, he COULD be blinded by his own power - thinking of himself indestructable - he is going insane too. Just for common knowledge, which elves, exactly, aer 2000 years old? Which dragons? 'Cause in FR, dragons do die of Old Age- almost right after they hit 1,200. For more, read of The Wyrm that Hides in Blades in the FRCS- he is looking for IMMORTALITY, ergo, dragons are mortal. Dragons are mortal, but AFAIK they became a Great Wrym at that age, and AFAIK some of them were significantly older than that. Also, AFAIK some of the greatest Elves are practically immortal, but that aside, an Elf can live for 800 years, does that make him insanely powerful over a 25th level PC? Absolutely not. Infact, as you grow older, time passes more quickly for you. It is logical to asume that because Larloch is used to his life spanning over 2000 years, he will treat time somewhat differently to the PC's and most likely wouldnt hurry to do anything. I once saw a ring of Night's Mantle, though I can't find it now... if anyone knows where it is, please do tell. All the PC's would need are a few continual light rocks, the enemy casts darkness, we are now in a neutral situation... (darkness cancels light, rather than taking over it) Sunray.... A lot of dead undead. Wrong. Spell selection. Epic spell selection. O, and throw in diffrent magical artifacts, and see how one lich is untouchable, immune to any attack, yet not very offensive, while another is a whiriwind of spells, a third master of illusions... now add feat selection too, and see how they all drastically differ from one another. They are still undead, and mainly rely on magic. This is countered by so many ways, but to humour you - scrolls of magic protection, spell traps, shapechange into magic immune creatures, Hakshars which suck up all the Lich's magic themselves, and not to mention items which would grant the PC's Spell Resistance. As I explained above, the Epic Wiz can do everything with the right spell selection. Anyway, it's enough for Larloch to casr Epic Darkness that allows Undead to see through it and, *wham*, see those Vamps going! It is quite PROBABLE the PC's would have the similar Light spell, they are going into an undead fortress after all, they can do everything with the right spell selection too, and since they will be more prepared (unless larloch knew they were coming from the word go), they will obviously have the better spell selection. Errr... true. Good thing he doesn't need Mystra :P. Anyway, I dunno... there's an Epic group, Seth's Fangs or suchlike, a bunch of insanely powerful mates... don't know much about them, though. Neither, I am rusty on my FR knowledge. Actually, liches has a better HD. And no, he might raise them in the middle of the battle just to make them fight their comtads. And once one is dead, I am willing to bet one lich will trap his soul, so no ressuruction will happen. A lich's hitdice (3rd ed) is actually based on what it was before it was a Lich, in this case, a arcane or divine caster, which is not better than a fighter. True ressurection brings you back from ANYTHING even being turned into undead. The ONLY thing it doesn't bring you back from is Old Age. There are a few Magical Items than let you use many charges of this spell. I do not think you can hold stuff in a folding boat. And if you can, you can bet Larloch and his 60+ liches also have Disintigrate. And I do not think it works, anyway. And Larloch will have a *powerful* golem, not your regular out-of-the-MM golem. You can stick your portable hole onto the boat, put some creatures inside it, then shrink it. Ta-Da. And yes, he will have a powerful golem or two, but since it is an object at the end of the day it can be taken care of with many items and spells. Errr... OK... you are aware you have to *dig in it for what you want*, right? Still as useful? If you're using it to travel through walls, and what have you, yes. I think you're getting it confused with a bag of holding. He'll give some to his liches. That would be a wise idea on his part. No, they have survived. And will die later, in his retaliation. If they get him angry enough to come after them (out of his crypt) then he has helped them. Traps are Int (traps of the "Think of something useful to draw X to spot Y", or anything that requires planning), Wisdom is all about thinking ahead and using your enviroment to your advantage. You can have 100 intelligence yet 1 Wisdom, and would have absolutely no idea what your plan was going to do, or how to follow it through. A. They can be brought back to life. B. They have phylacteries. C. They will use Trap the Soul, no ressuruction. A. No they can't, they are not alive. B. Yes they do, but they take years to reform. C. Requires a Saving Throw, and to get past magic resistance (either that or a trigger item), very short range, and since the characters soul would have left the body a True Ressurection will bring it back. Highly unlikely. Larloch did traverse the planes (unless he's dumb like Hell, which he ain't). Larloch hasn't been everywhere, otherwise there would be no magical items or artifacts left on the face of Faerun or the multiverse. Collectively doesn't work. Depends what context your looking at, in the case of monkeys then no, it doesn't stack. OK, their clones'll die. Yay. That's the point, to find out what can be exploited and what couldn't. Or the clones could be used as some sort of distraction, there are many possibilities. Anyway, reclusive means he isn't going out much, not that he doesn't take an interest. So he's not traversing the planes much is he? he isn't out slaying nightmare creatures from the 5th dimension in his sleep then? Make up your mind. Sure. And all that time the Shadow King does the same to them, 'cause he *will* notice their attmepts. And he will win in a battle of wits. He SHOULD win, what if he unfortunately got some mental derailment, or he simply got unlucky? Please avoid using words such as WILL (this is the reason for my whole disagreement with you). Nothing is certain. There are a few things the PC's can do provided they have the right set of conditions, but let's think logically here, they would only go after him if they MATCHED these conditions. One condition: If the PC's had a Talisman of Pure good? All they would need to do is get within 100FT of Larloch and he is gone, dead, forever, nothing he can do about it save pray he wins the initative round. No spell resistance, no counter spell, nothing, and he won't be respawning himself in a few years to come after them either. Another condition: The PC's had access to some very powerful anti-undead artifacts, clones, protection from negative plane scrolls, true ressurection items, and a few Mantles of Spell Resistance. Also they would need to be tipped off by someone of considerable power (perhaps even a god who Larloch was stumbling upon something he didn't want him to stumble upon) gave them some insider information on his crypt. Another condition: The PC's don't even have to go after Larloch himself, but rather, his phylactery. They have some certain sway if they managed to do that, and it could open up a whole new epic level campaign for the characters. For all of Larlochs immense intelligence, the PC's could use that against him. Sometimes you can fool greatly intelligent beings by just being quite simply and seemingly random. Also using the argument that his intelligence will let him see through any plan is just absurd. He is on the same intelligence level as a lot of gods, and their plans are continuously foiled by mortals through either blind luck, outside help, or fate. In conclusion I will start to be more agreeable with some of your pro-larloch points when you stop using terms as "He WILL be able to see everything the PC's can do, and he WILL just kill them". I agree that it would take a lot of time, effort, and some very powerful artifacts/friends for a PC party to take him out, but until you accept the possibility it CAN happen, I will continue posting points on here in counter of your own.
Pandelume 09-08-03, 07:07 PM	We should start have Larloch re-stated petition thread. :D
KRONOS 09-08-03, 07:18 PM	I like that idea Pandelume. Where do we start?
kedi 09-08-03, 08:23 PM	I say we opan a forum
LordHell 09-08-03, 08:57 PM	Well perhaps we SHOULD try to kill him? I say an online session, with the PRO Larloch faction as Larloch and his minions, and the anti-larloch faction as the Epic Level party. Perhaps the party starts as 24th +1d4 levels, and of course, we would have to purchase LoD and Epic Level handbooks, and the DM as Larloch and what-not, with a few of the other pro-larloch supporters as his toughest Lichs. Then we will settle this dispute once and for all :)
kedi 09-09-03, 03:23 AM	you can download them http://www.geocities.com/leaves_or/kedismirk.txt
Savras 09-09-03, 04:34 AM	Originally posted by LordHell You seem to be forgetting the PCs can teleport too. You did not get my point- I *want* them to follow him. He is not going to stay in that room, he is going to go where his liches can help him. Unless Larloch lives in a cavern the size of the underdark (which he doesn't), the army factor will never apply. Unless the party can teleport into his tower (which they can't), they'll have to get through it. If he flees he has been defeated (not killed), and then the PC's will happily loot his crypt while he's gone, probably casting a few surprizes for him upon his return. Besides, you seem to be forgetting the PC's can probably planar travel too. They can chase him, but after his third planeshift\teleport they'll probably lose track. And I am pretty damn sure he'll stop to take the most important stuff (like artifacts) before leaving. They will get a "phat lewt", but, well, no artifacts and no custom Epic spells. That WAS a silly point, I have already admitted that. Oh. Sorry, then. Yeah right. First you say he is reclusive, then you say he is actively seeking out adventure? Make up your mind Oh dear. Well, I refer us both to the www.dictionary.com. After vieiwing the results, I am led to belive the word has two similar, yet diffrent, meanings- A. One who wishes no connection whatsoever with the outer world. B. One who wishes to be left alone by the outer world. You use A, I use B. Which is very vexing. However, as I see it, he *will* scry occasionally, but, OK, he doesn't scry. His liches don't, either? And if he took out something "no problem" he would gain virtually 0 experiance for it. That is how the 3rd edition rules work. Bah! Such nitpickingness! The "on problem" was about the whole leveling up, not about the killing. i.e., he could easily find something worthy of his time to kill. In order for him to actually advance he would have to take out "challanging" creatures, in which case there is a large chance of him being defeated, again, this is how the 3rd edition rules work. Errrr... with the monsters in the Epic Handbook, I'll guess it'll be OK. A lot of Gods have had *a lot* of time to think of plans too, that have failed. Even with 32 INT you can't think of everything. Besides - unless the PC's started blatantly massing an army, with his already stated reclusive nature, it is UNLIKELY he will be onto them. Will you agree with me that he will be onto them when they approach the crypt? And that he has many contingency plans? OK, we are all happy now. He does not have almost anything at his disposal, there are a good many powerful magical items and artifacts that an undead and/or Lich CAN NOT USE. He would have been there done that however, I do agree with you, but despite all his experiance and power and intelligence, he COULD be blinded by his own power - thinking of himself indestructable - he is going insane too. Correct. Yet moot, in my opinion, as there are items that can only be used by undead, and an Int 34 being is unlikely to underestimate a group of such powerful people. Dragons are mortal, but AFAIK they became a Great Wrym at that age, and AFAIK some of them were significantly older than that. Also, AFAIK some of the greatest Elves are practically immortal, but that aside, an Elf can live for 800 years, does that make him insanely powerful over a 25th level PC? Absolutely not. Well, the only elf I can think of that lived that long is the Srinshee, and she can kick yout Epic party's bum from here to thursday. She can also kill Larloch no problem, what with having a Circle of High Mages always with her, and being able to cast Elven High Magic with their help... Infact, as you grow older, time passes more quickly for you. It is logical to asume that because Larloch is used to his life spanning over 2000 years, he will treat time somewhat differently to the PC's and most likely wouldnt hurry to do anything. Correct. He might even wait 'till they die of old age. All the PC's would need are a few continual light rocks, the enemy casts darkness, we are now in a neutral situation... (darkness cancels light, rather than taking over it) Sunray.... A lot of dead undead. Incorrect. The Night's Mantle spell protects from the light of the sun. Daylight (3rd level) won't counter Hieghtened Darkness of the 4th level. It will only counter darkness spells of 3rd level or lower, and will be countered in the process (if they are same level, I think). They are still undead, and mainly rely on magic. This is countered by so many ways, but to humour you - scrolls of magic protection, spell traps, shapechange into magic immune creatures, Hakshars which suck up all the Lich's magic themselves, and not to mention items which would grant the PC's Spell Resistance. Agreed, although items SR is a bad way to go- low SRs for high prices. It is quite PROBABLE the PC's would have the similar Light spell, they are going into an undead fortress after all, they can do everything with the right spell selection too, and since they will be more prepared (unless larloch knew they were coming from the word go), they will obviously have the better spell selection. It seens like it's a standoff, then. A lich's hitdice (3rd ed) is actually based on what it was before it was a Lich, in this case, a arcane or divine caster, which is not better than a fighter. Correct, yet incorrect. The lich's number of HD is his level, the lich's kind of HD is D12. True ressurection brings you back from ANYTHING even being turned into undead. The ONLY thing it doesn't bring you back from is Old Age. There are a few Magical Items than let you use many charges of this spell. Correct, yet see below. You can stick your portable hole onto the boat, put some creatures inside it, then shrink it. Ta-Da. Yep. And they will choke eventually. And yes, he will have a powerful golem or two, but since it is an object at the end of the day it can be taken care of with many items and spells. Yep, many- that's the point. To weaken them. If you're using it to travel through walls, and what have you, yes. I think you're getting it confused with a bag of holding. Actually, you are confused. Allow me to quate my trusty SRD 3.5: Portable Hole: A portable hole is a circle of cloth spun from the webs of a phase spider interwoven with strands of ether and beams of starlight. When opened fully, a portable hole is 6 feet in diameter, but it can be folded up to be as small as a pocket handkerchief. When spread upon any surface, it causes an extradimensional space 10 feet deep to come into being. This hole can be picked up from inside or out by simply taking hold of the edges of the cloth and folding it up. Either way, the entrance disappears, but anything inside the hole remains. The only air in the hole is that which enters when the hole is opened. It contains enough air to supply one Medium creature or two Small creatures for 10 minutes. The cloth does not accumulate weight even if its hole is filled. Each portable hole opens on its own particular nondimensional space. If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole, a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in that place. Both the bag and the cloth are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, the portable hole and bag of holding being destroyed in the process. Moderate conjuration; CL 12th; Craft Wondrous Item, plane shift; Price 20,000 gp. So you see, I am right here. If they get him angry enough to come after them (out of his crypt) then he has helped them. Despite the fact he'll wait to the right momenet and bring 60+ guests? Wisdom is all about thinking ahead and using your enviroment to your advantage. You can have 100 intelligence yet 1 Wisdom, and would have absolutely no idea what your plan was going to do, or how to follow it through. No. I refer you once more to the SRD 3.5: Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings A. No they can't, they are not alive. Incorrect. Or, correct, but you are worng. They are not alive- they can be brought back to life, no? A. If you destroy them, they are dead. B. It is possible to bring an undead back to life, without destroying it, if it wants to. Stated clearly several times, though I'll be damned if I remember when. If you are unsure, ask on the "Spells and Magic" forums. B. Yes they do, but they take years to reform.[/quote Emmmm... no. SRD 3.5 to the rescue: [quote]As a rule, the only way to get rid of a lich for sure is to destroy its phylactery. Unless its phylactery is located and destroyed, a lich reappears 1d10 days after its apparent death. C. Requires a Saving Throw, and to get past magic resistance (either that or a trigger item), very short range, and since the characters soul would have left the body a True Ressurection will bring it back. Trap the Soul Conjuration (Summoning) Level: Sor/Wiz 8 Components: V, S, M, (F); see text Casting Time: 1 standard action or see text Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One creature Duration: Permanent; see text Saving Throw: See text Spell Resistance: Yes; see text Trap the soul forces a creature’s life force (and its material body) into a gem. The gem holds the trapped entity indefinitely or until the gem is broken and the life force is released, which allows the material body to reform. If the trapped creature is a powerful creature from another plane it can be required to perform a service immediately upon being freed. Otherwise, the creature can go free once the gem imprisoning it is broken. Depending on the version selected, the spell can be triggered in one of two ways. Spell Completion: First, the spell can be completed by speaking its final word as a standard action as if you were casting a regular spell at the subject. This allows spell resistance (if any) and a Will save to avoid the effect. If the creature’s name is spoken as well, any spell resistance is ignored and the save DC increases by 2. If the save or spell resistance is successful, the gem shatters. So, range rather long, and still has a save. Still, not bad, eh? And the entire point of this spell is that the soul is trapped, and thus you cannot ressuruct the victim until the soul is freed. Larloch hasn't been everywhere, otherwise there would be no magical items or artifacts left on the face of Faerun or the multiverse.[quote] OK, but we both agree he has seen a lot. [quote]Depends what context your looking at, in the case of monkeys then no, it doesn't stack. I claim it doesn't stack in the case of Chars too- 10 chars with Int 10 each cannot out-think one char with Int 20. That's the point, to find out what can be exploited and what couldn't. Or the clones could be used as some sort of distraction, there are many possibilities. Yes, but Larloch can use them to send misleading information. So he's not traversing the planes much is he? he isn't out slaying nightmare creatures from the 5th dimension in his sleep then? Make up your mind. He *used* to traverse the planes. And he doesn't sleep, he is undead. He SHOULD win, what if he unfortunately got some mental derailment, or he simply got unlucky? Please avoid using words such as WILL (this is the reason for my whole disagreement with you). Nothing is certain. Correct. And while I still think he WILL, I will add that he WILL if nothing unexpexted (like terrible luck or divine intervention) will happen. There are a few things the PC's can do provided they have the right set of conditions, but let's think logically here, they would only go after him if they MATCHED these conditions. One condition: If the PC's had a Talisman of Pure good? All they would need to do is get within 100FT of Larloch and he is gone, dead, forever, nothing he can do about it save pray he wins the initative round. No spell resistance, no counter spell, nothing, and he won't be respawning himself in a few years to come after them either. First, he'll reform in 1d10 days. Second, if he knows they have it (and artifacts are usually obvious), he will cast fly, and it doesn't work. Another condition: The PC's had access to some very powerful anti-undead artifacts, clones, protection from negative plane scrolls, true ressurection items, and a few Mantles of Spell Resistance. Also they would need to be tipped off by someone of considerable power (perhaps even a god who Larloch was stumbling upon something he didn't want him to stumble upon) gave them some insider information on his crypt. OK, but it will still be a hard battle. I think the Shadow King will first Disjunction them, just in case, though, then continue fighting as usual. Another condition: The PC's don't even have to go after Larloch himself, but rather, his phylactery. They have some certain sway if they managed to do that, and it could open up a whole new epic level campaign for the characters. Correct. Notice however, that he will know what is going on (he will notice they enter the whatever gaurds his phylactery), and he will take steps to kill them. And I will bet yuo that he has a nice big room, perfct for ambush by 60+ liches and several vampires. For all of Larlochs immense intelligence, the PC's could use that against him. Sometimes you can fool greatly intelligent beings by just being quite simply and seemingly random. Also using the argument that his intelligence will let him see through any plan is just absurd. I have never said he will see through any plan, though I agree with the sentiment. http://www.geocities.com/sirgrimsage/Smilies/savras.txt And acting random doesn't sound that good an idea to me. He is on the same intelligence level as a lot of gods, and their plans are continuously foiled by mortals through either blind luck, outside help, or fate. Well, I must admit that the gods act rather stupidly. In conclusion I will start to be more agreeable with some of your pro-larloch points when you stop using terms as "He WILL be able to see everything the PC's can do, and he WILL just kill them". I have never said that. If I were to use that, I wouldn't counter you point by point, now would I? I would just say "I win!" and that's it. I agree that it would take a lot of time, effort, and some very powerful artifacts/friends for a PC party to take him out, but until you accept the possibility it CAN happen, I will continue posting points on here in counter of your own. It can happen. By a trio of Greater Gods, and they'll lose two...http://www.geocities.com/sarlis4fr/3eyewink.txt :P Anyway, do counter me. I am having fun! Savras
kedi 09-09-03, 04:37 AM	we will beat those "we can kill lorloch with 4 25plus mans" Foundation, I find a new foundation: "You can't kill lorloch with a 4 pc 35plus level party, maybe with a greater god"
Pandelume 09-09-03, 12:42 PM	Well we could just keep opening thread after thread about or go petition.com and start a petition their. :D By the way just to clear somthings up by the term pro-Larloch. I was talking about the poeple that see or try to see Larloch in the way Edd described him. I all so notic that the main anti-Larloch peerson, by anti I mean people who see Larloch as cannon fodder for Diable style games. That he did not reply to my 2nd post taking apart his argument guess it was to good. :D As for making new foundation that just a silly idea.....
Savras 09-09-03, 05:41 PM	OK, I know this has beem already disected, but I made some misstatements I'd like to correct. You can just ignpre this if you read the last disectment (by Pandelume). Originally posted by LordHell Allow me to retort: Be my guest. This is amusing that you can come in here and SAY exactly what dragons and elves have, as if it is fact. I will humour your for a minute anyway. Why thank you kind sir. I trust you'll see my points... interesting. A) A dragon could quite feasably have a fortress just as strong as Larloch, and an Elven city could also be extremely challanging to attack. Err... OK. Good for them. I really can't see your point here. You spoke of 2000 year old elves and dragons. Which 2000 years old elves and dragons? I mean, really? I think even the Srinshee is younger than that, and she doesn't have a fortress. And I don't know of any draconic fortress. They can have, but they don't. Also, the Elven City is irrelevant- unless the 2000 years-old elf (whomever he might be) is ruling it singlehandedly, as Larloch does his fortress. B) A dragon IS a one man army all by itself. As is Larloch. C) See above, and what's an army worth when it can only operate in the darkness? Another exploit. Liches and lesser undead couldn't care less about daylight. D) 60+ Liches of 20th+ level would be a fearsome foe, but at the end of the day you can't fit 60+ Liches in a small room, and 25+ level parties would be practically immune to magical energy(fire/ice/electricity/acid), and have easy means of shrugging off any mind domination spells and what not. Then what are the liches going to do? 99.9% of them probably wouldn't even be able to hit a 25th+ level PC, and most of their spells would be practically useless. The only fearsome thing I can see out of this would be 60+ timestops. I'm sure the PC's would have to deal with this in some way. You forget that the liches are either a few levels below, at the same level, or higher level than trhe PCs. I have countered this point earlier, though. E) Dragons have super powerful magical items, and a few artifacts lying around, as do Elven societies. Well, your version of Faerûn sure is full with artifacts! Very few dragons have artifacts. And while the Elven Society does have several artifacts, that's irrelevent, because we are not talking of the Elven Society but about specific 2000 years old elves, which, as far as I know, do not exist (bar the Srinshee, if she's that old), and thus, what artifacts the Elven Society, as a whole, has, has nothing to do with the subject. Unless Larloch is allowed to bring *his* Society in- say hello to the City of Shade, it's Mythallar and so on. F) I'm sure some powerful Dragons have many few powerful people under a geas or two. The Elves also would have powerful allies (such as their gods avatars!) Again, the elven society is unrelated, we speak of specific 2000 years old elves. And, when you'll be able to back up the "Gease on the High and Mighty" theory, let me know. G) This is a grand assumption, I am confident that there are a lot of elves capable of epic level spells, and a few dragons too! Correct. Less than 60, though, I'd say. <Snip- answered that part elsewhere> It doesn't matter who you are, but being undead brings weaknesses along with strengths, and these weakness can be exploited with careful planning. I meant it was up to you to show how to use these weaknesses. They just might be, it is quite probably that the Fighters have armour that is 15/+3 by this stage, the mages have some sort of protection from normal weapons at all times. How are devils going to even touch them? Give them credit, they are epic levels themselves! If the devils have DR, their natural weapons can bypass that DR. It's all in the books. As for spheres for Annihaliation, implosion, imprisonment, that is nothing a few spell traps, spell immunities:abjuration, spell resistance, amulets, death wards, or one of the millions of ways a epic level party can protect itself from. Boots of flying, boots of speed, blah blah blah. Remember, they have time to PREPARE! Yep. The Shadow King had 2000 years to prepare, though... I would asume he would know they are coming, but a smart party would know this are prepare for this situation. How? Not when your party is epic level, a high level party could easily craft a wand of summoning Hakshars (or whatever they are called) to use as a sort of spell sheild, sucking up everything cast at them. Remember these Liches wont have had time to prepare, and at best would have had a few or so deathspells/deathfogs. Nothing a 50 or even 100 charged wand won't take care of. If anything tries to physically attack the Hakshars, that's what Mordekans swords are for! That combination and you have an army that is immune to magic and virtually most physical attacks - which could quite easily keep a lot of Lich's at bay while you go for the head of the snake. Dissmisal would work. So yeah, the Nishruu will gain a few HP. And he'll be away. You do realise that it is quite possible for PC's to craft their own spells, their own magical items, and to have most likely stumbled on a large amount of artifacts by the time they reach 25th level themselves? As did Larloch. By the way, how many artifacts litter your FR anyway? If you had a party of 25th level PCs, the game is already uber powerful. He might have more artifacts, more spell power, and an army, but he can't use them all at once! Yes he can. Why not? You are quite the demagogue, you know? Maybe unintentionall, but a demagogue nevertheless. Why not? Some of his liches carry the artifaacts he doesn't. Yes 60++ heads are better than 6, but they are all undead and all share the same weakness. All their eggs are in the one basket, and you know what they say about that? What weakness? Will you stop talking about that ephemereal "weakness" and state, once and for all, what it is and how you are going to use it? Point conceeded. Thank you. He can't protect himself from fighters +5 swords (possibly even +6 by this stage). He is going to do jack **** against a improved hasted paladin buffed up to nam with his gods fury in his eyes, weilding a vorpal keen +6 holy avenger. Spell turning can me taken down, resistances can be lowered, hell you could shapechange into a mind flayer and intelligence drain him, that would **** him off! All they need to do is hit him and his army of Lichs with an insect plague (area of effect) and they can cast naught spells after that. Incorrect, incorrect and incorrect. First, he can. Epic Irongaurd, against +7 weapons. Or fly above him, while in ghostform, and actually just an illusion (Mislead) that is protected with Displacement andf Mirror Image. Mindflayers will find it very hard to eat the brain of a lich. Anyway, they do not drain Int, they kill, which has no effect on dead people. And they'll get some nasty curses, 'cause they touch the Shadow King. Also, the spell is very unclear in the 3.5 SRD. It doesn't say what it does, for one thing. If you ment the Summon Swarm spell, then the SRD is just as unclear. Anyway, in the 3.0 PHB it clearly states it doesn't work on undead, so, tough luck. A lot of celestials are almost completely immune to magic, level drain, and anything shy of +3 attacks. This is why they are Celestials, and extremely feared by all.[/quote[ Really? Which "a lot of celestials" are those? Care to elaborate. Until you do, the point is moot. Whats more, the Shadow King and his mates can summon uber-demons\devils, so it's a standoff. And how are you going to summon beings into the spellwebs anyway? [quote]I doubt Mystra would come to his rescue, but his other friends could prove problematic. However, in the thick of a battle, he might not have enough time to do everything at once, and if the PC's caught him in a confined space he can't gate in 60+ liches and then his whole dinner party list of friends. If they catch him in that room, he'll teleport away. Using a quickened Teleport, probably after a Quickened Maximized Time Stop, and then some nasty delayed uber-spells. Again, put him in a confined space. The PC's could put up a wall of force seperating his army from him, using a cube of force. He also can't use all his artifacts at once, he only has two hands. He will teleport out of it. Or first dispell it, then kill your PCs. And true, he can't use all artifacts at once. Which is why he'll give some to his mates. Again, the PCs have the advantage of being able to prepare. They can make themselves completely immune to level drain (negative plane protection), they can all put up spell traps, summon magic eating monsters, make themselves immune to virtually all normal spells in the book, then unleash hell upon the Lichs, Spells such as holy word can deafen all the Lichs in one swoop, making them have a 50% casting failure, and there is NOTHING they can do about, insect plague across the whole battlefield, negating their ability to cast any spells, followed up by earthquakes and all sorts of nasty abilitys. The PCs at this level could even craft spells and items perfectly for this situation. Larloch and his goons done the same thing for their side for 2000 years. Insect Plague doesn't work on undead, and so on. I have countered most of your methods, but would like to say once more- Lalroch and his 60+ liches have prepared to defend themselves. They covered their weaknesses. No, you don't seem to realise when you are in the PC's realm of power, it's not about numbers, it's about force multipliers. If the PC's fight on THEIR terms, and they are smart, they should never even see 60+ Liches that can attack them at once. You forget that Larloch doesn't just sit there, he acts. If they are smart, they can win. If they are not smart, they will die. Natural selection. No. If they are thrice as smart as Int 34, they will be able to get away with some of his stuff. I dunno where his phylactery is, but I would put it in Mystra's trust. Humans can be raised. As can liches. And he will then turn himself into a lich again. In conclusion, while Larloch may be in an almost unbreachable fortress, and possibly one of the most powerful characters in the realms, I am in the firm belief that if any party can make it to 25 level at least with all their members, they are the only ones short of a god that could take out Larloch. In conclusion, I believe you are wrong. 25 is not nearly high enough- he is CR 34, that's 9 more than a normal challenge for them- it's an unbeatable challange, as I hope I have showen. You are overlooking just how powerful that they are, think about it for a minute. They have no weaknesses (due to their diversity), they can have their own artifacts and their own epic spells, they WILL have their own powerful allies they can call on by that stage, maybe even some gods, they have time to prepare, plan, and they have basically everything available to them that Larloch does. They are 25. That's high, but not high enough. They are very powerful, we agree. But not half as powerful as he is. Hell, they could just throw clones at him first to see how it works out. That's what I'd do if I were them, backed up by spell traps, Mordies swords, spell immunities, insect plagues, contingencies that slip them into etherealness on timestop, etc etc. Larloch has the same tricks, only he's been using them for longer time, and is better at it. With the proper planning, and proper cunning, they could drive Larloch's soul from his body defeating him. Killing him tho? That's an adventure for another day. [/B] I still say they can't. Well, I'm off to bed, good night! Savras
Kuje31 09-09-03, 06:00 PM	I believe the oldest elf in FR is the Queen of Evermeet and she's about 800. Or the Shrinshee as was pointed out, but I have never heard in any of the material for the last 16 years that there has been a elf that is 2,000 years old..... Less they are undead Baelnorn or maybe a High Mage, like the Queen is.
LordHell 09-09-03, 06:07 PM	Originally posted by Savras You did not get my point- I *want* them to follow him. He is not going to stay in that room, he is going to go where his liches can help him. True, I guess he could teleport the PC's into a trap. However they could just teleport a wizard eye or something after him. Unless the party can teleport into his tower (which they can't), they'll have to get through it. This is where we come back to my original post, they will be ways of getting past his army undetected. They don't even have to be undetected, provided they could figure out some way of staying to confined spaces/or disconnecting Larloch from his minions. They can chase him, but after his third planeshift\teleport they'll probably lose track. And I am pretty damn sure he'll stop to take the most important stuff (like artifacts) before leaving They will get a "phat lewt", but, well, no artifacts and no custom Epic spells.. They might not have gotten him, but at least they survived! His liches don't, either? I was just using that to make a point :) If it were my campaign, I would have Larloch have some sort of 3rd party agency keeping close taps on the PC's just incase. Bah! Such nitpickingness! The "on problem" was about the whole leveling up, not about the killing. i.e., he could easily find something worthy of his time to kill. Errrr... with the monsters in the Epic Handbook, I'll guess it'll be OK. Anything that is going to give him experiance is going to have a good chance of killing him too. Will you agree with me that he will be onto them when they approach the crypt? And that he has many contingency plans? OK, we are all happy now. Agreed. Correct. Yet moot, in my opinion, as there are items that can only be used by undead, and an Int 34 being is unlikely to underestimate a group of such powerful people. I would be more inclined to say with a Wisdom of 22 he is unlikely to underestimate a group of such powerful people. My point was however that Larloch doesn't have access to everything. I think the only reason Ed Greenwood said that Larloch has every magical item in the source books, etc, was a knee-jerk reaction to try and put people off trying to kill Larloch. If it were my campaign, no one would have access to every magical item in the source book. Well, the only elf I can think of that lived that long is the Srinshee, and she can kick yout Epic party's bum from here to thursday. She can also kill Larloch no problem, what with having a Circle of High Mages always with her, and being able to cast Elven High Magic with their help... Now we are straying off topic, but what happened to Larloch being THE most powerful caster in the realms? :) Correct. He might even wait 'till they die of old age. Haha, that would most certainly vex a party of PC's. Just simply avoid them until they become frail and old, then strike. Incorrect. The Night's Mantle spell protects from the light of the sun. Daylight (3rd level) won't counter Hieghtened Darkness of the 4th level. It will only counter darkness spells of 3rd level or lower, and will be countered in the process (if they are same level, I think). Alright, let's assume the vampires can then operate in darkness, just another reason obstical the PCs will have to plan for or avoid completely. BTW I can't seem to find any reference to Night's Mantle, is it an epic level spell? Agreed, although items SR is a bad way to go- low SRs for high prices. It entirely depends what they find in their travels, and monks SR is insanely high for a pretty low cost. Perhaps they might be a party of 25th-30th level monks, and Arcane casters with spell traps? :) That would be a somewhat deadly combination to anyone on the realms. Correct, yet incorrect. The lich's number of HD is his level, the lich's kind of HD is D12. Yep, I am wrong. Yep. And they will choke eventually. I believe I originally suggested you put constructs in there, with that in mind :) Actually, you are confused. Allow me to quate my trusty SRD 3.5: I realise all this, but I'm still at a loss as to see why the PC's would be fumbling around in their PORTABLE HOLE for swords, staves, items, and what not? I'd assume they would actually be carrying them. Despite the fact he'll wait to the right momenet and bring 60+ guests? Perhaps the PCs have a trap in wait for him and his 60+ guests. Anyway, how is he going to teleport his 60+ Lichs around? Does he have an Epic level spell GATE 60 Lichs? Not even the Demon and Devil princes can gate in 60 servants in ONE round. Are they ALL going to teleport in? If so, many of them run the risk of teleporting onto each other! (Telefrag!) He can't use teleportation circle, because that's only 5ft radius. No. I refer you once more to the SRD 3.5: According to my interptritation intelligence is thinking(problem solving), learning, and remembering. Wisdom is perceiving, interpruting, which is why "Wise" people are the ones are not fooled easily, and being "intelligent" does not mean you are "wise". I guess you think differently, thats ok (and that's what D&D is about). Incorrect. Or, correct, but you are worng. They are not alive- they can be brought back to life, no? A. If you destroy them, they are dead. B. It is possible to bring an undead back to life, without destroying it, if it wants to. Stated clearly several times, though I'll be damned if I remember when. If you are unsure, ask on the "Spells and Magic" forums. Because an undead has no soul, once it is destroyed in my games, they cannot be brought back. Lich's are the exception with their phylactery of course. If you want undead to be raised over and over again, IMO, you are making undead far more powerful than they should be. It may not be the " core rules", but again, D&D is about bending the rules to the way you think is most fun for everyone. Having Undead that just don't die is not fun, if you want to create new undead, you have to do it from slayed living creatures. So, range rather long, and still has a save. Still, not bad, eh? And the entire point of this spell is that the soul is trapped, and thus you cannot ressuruct the victim until the soul is freed. Depends on how you look at it. When you die in D&D, your soul is trapped on whatever plane of exsistance you belong in. Ressurection is about opening a path for the soul to return to the body, and sometimes the soul doesn't want to return, in most adventurers case, it does. I claim it doesn't stack in the case of Chars too- 10 chars with Int 10 each cannot out-think one char with Int 20. Let's forget the idea of stacking, and think more along the lines of 6 characters all excelling in certain areas (A mage with 25+ Int, a cleric with 25+ wis, a sorc with 25+ CHA, a fighter with 25+ str, all combine together to work as one well oiled machine), rather than 60 monkeys with all the same strengths and weaknesses (a bit like undead really). Yes, but Larloch can use them to send misleading information. That would be a very good idea, the characters would have to use their WISDOM to determine if they are being mislead or not. He *used* to traverse the planes. And he doesn't sleep, he is undead. Yes I agree that he USED to traverse the planes, so he is NOT anymore, so he is not advancing 20+ levels in 40 years like someone here suggested. Correct. And while I still think he WILL, I will add that he WILL if nothing unexpexted (like terrible luck or divine intervention) will happen. Since PnP D&D is practically based on a lot of luck (d20!) to factor out luck would be an incorrect thing to do, IMO. First, he'll reform in 1d10 days. [QUOTE] Yes, I think this is overpowered, but Lichs I guess are meant to be powerful (Demons don't reform in 1d10 days, so why do Lichs?) [QUOTE] Second, if he knows they have it (and artifacts are usually obvious), he will cast fly, and it doesn't work. Due to his highly magical nature, he could probably detect it upon them, and then prepare for that. Perhaps the PC's will have to masks its presence from him (they will have to think of that themselves). OK, but it will still be a hard battle. I think the Shadow King will first Disjunction them, just in case, though, then continue fighting as usual. Perhaps they would do the same to him, which could be devistating due to the amount of artifacts floating around (Larloch looses his casting ability anyone? could happen! Luck of the dice). Correct. Notice however, that he will know what is going on (he will notice they enter the whatever gaurds his phylactery), and he will take steps to kill them. And I will bet yuo that he has a nice big room, perfct for ambush by 60+ liches and several vampires. He most certainly would, but in this case IF the PCs found it, they wouldn't have to stick around for a fight. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I like your tactic of Larloch just simply outliving them, then enacting his revenge. If I were him, I'd simply ignore the PC's (because I think a clever bunch of epic level characters could pose a problem for him) and just go around picking off their lovec ones, friends, and allies until they leave me alone. Pandelume, I think it is folly on my part to try and reply to 3 different peoples posts which basically cover the same thing.
LordHell 09-09-03, 07:04 PM	Originally posted by Savras Err... OK. Good for them. I really can't see your point here. You spoke of 2000 year old elves and dragons. Somebody brought up the point implying "Larloch is 2000 years old, he can do anything!!". I simply am saying that just because Larloch is 2000 years old, doesn't mean he knows EVERYTHING. Like I mentioned earlier, he might spend 40 years studying one thing due to his long life span, accomplish things slower, relatively speaking. As for "Power", take an elf that has lived for a few hundred years, does that automatically make him more powerful than a Human who has lived for 30? No. As is Larloch. No, no he's not. Take away his spells, and he is not much. This is the reason he relies on an army for protection. A dragon however, has wing buffets, it's BREATH, massive hitpoints, powerful attacks, and can probably fight for a long time before becoming fatigued. Liches and lesser undead couldn't care less about daylight. Nothing to do with the point. You forget that the liches are either a few levels below, at the same level, or higher level than trhe PCs. I have countered this point earlier, though. I would be inclined to say there are many BELOW the levels of the PC (20-25th), but I would say there would only be at most THREE ABOVE the level of the PCs. Why must we insist on using blatant numbers to put our points across? Have not the latest wars taught any of you that numbers mean diddly squat without proper tactics and preperation? And mages (which a large number of his Lich's will be) are probably the class that is weakest without proper preperation. You cannot say that Larloch has been preparing for 2000 years for this party to attack him, he would have general defenses about his place for general purposes. Well, your version of Faerûn sure is full with artifacts! I would say there would be around 20-50 artifacts scattered across the whole of Faerun, with perhaps another 10-20 undiscovered. It's a big place, with many gods, a long history, and a few powerful creatures roaming around. For example: Remember the time of troubles? I'm sure you do. Just think of what the Gods would have brought with them - given away, lost when they were defeated, and what not. Correct. Less than 60, though, I'd say. What are 60 Lichs going to do in a Anti-Magic zone? Disjunction it and pray when it is destroyed it doesn't take out all their spells and items at the same time? If the devils have DR, their natural weapons can bypass that DR. It's all in the books. The lower end of the food-chain only hit as +1, the higher end of the food chain arn't that numerous. Yep. The Shadow King had 2000 years to prepare, though... For this party? No. The shadow king has been alive for 2000 years, he hasn't been preparing for attack for 2000 years. How? This is D&D, there are NUMEROUS ways. Off the top of my head, perhaps they could find some way of disguising themselves as undead and mingle in with his army? Dissmisal would work. So yeah, the Nishruu will gain a few HP. And he'll be away. So while they enemy spell casters are getting rid of these, what are the PC's doing, sitting on their butts playing poker? Yes he can. Why not? You are quite the demagogue, you know? Maybe unintentionall, but a demagogue nevertheless. Why not? Some of his liches carry the artifaacts he doesn't. Ok, let's say he gives out his most valued items to his servants, in gates the 60+ Lichs like you said.. disjunction away!, Now let's say there are 10 artifacts in that group, that's a 10% chance something VERY bad is going to happen to those Lichs. What weakness? Will you stop talking about that ephemereal "weakness" and state, once and for all, what it is and how you are going to use it? Lich's weakness is they don't fight very well. Take away their spells (through whatever means, anti-magic fields, or just protect yourself from spells) and you have a bunch of modly bones and rags. If you are unfortunately enough to stumble upon all 60+ of them at once, well, it's nothing a little earthquake or insect plague can't take care off Your point about undead not being effected is incorrect, I see no mention of such thing. I do however see mention of creeping doom being subjective to damage reduction, but we don't want creeping doom, because that doesn't make spell casting imposible now doesn't it? Incorrect, incorrect and incorrect. First, he can. Epic Irongaurd, against +7 weapons. Or fly above him, while in ghostform, and actually just an illusion (Mislead) that is protected with Displacement andf Mirror Image. Mindflayers will find it very hard to eat the brain of a lich. Anyway, they do not drain Int, they kill, which has no effect on dead people. And they'll get some nasty curses, 'cause they touch the Shadow King. Also, the spell is very unclear in the 3.5 SRD. I'm not familiar with Epic Level stuff as I've already stated. Let's say your Mage got off a timestop first, shapechanged into a mind flayer, then extracted Larlochs brain, he would be defeated. If they catch him in that room, he'll teleport away. Using a quickened Teleport, probably after a Quickened Maximized Time Stop, and then some nasty delayed uber-spells. He could do that, provided he won Initative. He will teleport out of it. Or first dispell it, then kill your PCs. And true, he can't use all artifacts at once. Which is why he'll give some to his mates. This horse has been flogged to death by now, and how is he going to "kill your PCs". While he's dispelling the wall of force, AND THEN teleporting, what are the PC's doing? Oh that's right, sitting on their butts playing poker again waiting for Larloch to act. Larloch and his goons done the same thing for their side for 2000 years. Insect Plague doesn't work on undead, and so on. I have countered most of your methods, but would like to say once more- Lalroch and his 60+ liches have prepared to defend themselves. They covered their weaknesses. Your wrong about insect plague, it makes ALL SPELL CASTING IMPOSSIBLE and LIMITS VISION TO 10 FEET, there is NO mention of undead at ALL. Larloch and his goons have not been fighting Epic level parties for the past 2000 years, he is not a gladiator. There is a difference between a group of 10th level Knights trying to wipe him out, and one of the most powerful groups on Faerun. You forget that Larloch doesn't just sit there, he acts. Ditto with the PC's, who acts first is down to luck. No. If they are thrice as smart as Int 34, they will be able to get away with some of his stuff. I dunno where his phylactery is, but I would put it in Mystra's trust. Hahahaha! As can liches. And he will then turn himself into a lich again. I've covered this earlier, if you want to make super-powerful Undead that can be raised over and over again, Kudos to you, but while you're at it, explain to me why someone hasn't taken over Faerun with an army of undead? The whole point in Undead is that they are DEAD and CANNOT BE ANIMATED AGAIN. In conclusion, I believe you are wrong. 25 is not nearly high enough- he is CR 34, that's 9 more than a normal challenge for them- it's an unbeatable challange, as I hope I have showen. Each individual PC has a CR of more than 25 (it's not just hitdice, you'd have to give them +2 each due to their powerful items they would carry). I'm not sure what their EL level is, but as I have already mentioned it would be difficult for a 25th level party. 30th level would be completely different IMO however. Perhaps a 25th level party COULD become 30th level in their campaign to find his important little life source :) They are 25. That's high, but not high enough. They are very powerful, we agree. But not half as powerful as he is. See above. Larloch has the same tricks, only he's been using them for longer time, and is better at it. Doesn't mean he'll win though. I still say they can't. And I still say with proper planning and tactics, they MIGHT, and they will at least escape with their lives.
Savras 09-10-03, 07:10 AM	Well, hello again. I am happy to see you around. And, without further ado: Originally posted by LordHell True, I guess he could teleport the PC's into a trap. However they could just teleport a wizard eye or something after him. Good for them. Not all traps are visible. Anyway, the point is moot, as the liches can teleport in *after* the party teleports. This is where we come back to my original post, they will be ways of getting past his army undetected. They don't even have to be undetected, provided they could figure out some way of staying to confined spaces/or disconnecting Larloch from his minions. Larloch is not going to let that happen. He will always move to a place where he has the advantage. They might not have gotten him, but at least they survived! Correct. But so did Larloch. I was just using that to make a point :) If it were my campaign, I would have Larloch have some sort of 3rd party agency keeping close taps on the PC's just incase. Oh, OK. Anything that is going to give him experiance is going to have a good chance of killing him too. Not with his contingency. Agreed. http://www.geocities.com/sirgrimsage/Smilies/savras.txt I would be more inclined to say with a Wisdom of 22 he is unlikely to underestimate a group of such powerful people. My point was however that Larloch doesn't have access to everything. I think the only reason Ed Greenwood said that Larloch has every magical item in the source books, etc, was a knee-jerk reaction to try and put people off trying to kill Larloch. If it were my campaign, no one would have access to every magical item in the source book. I haven't much to say about this... Now we are straying off topic, but what happened to Larloch being THE most powerful caster in the realms? :) Oh, he is. It's just that the Srinshee carries several High Mages with her all the time, and she can cast Uber Spells all over the place due to that. Haha, that would most certainly vex a party of PC's. Just simply avoid them until they become frail and old, then strike. Yep. You can even ignore the "strike", just lety them die of old age. Alright, let's assume the vampires can then operate in darkness, just another reason obstical the PCs will have to plan for or avoid completely. Correct- but you won't be able to dismiss it until you explian how they do so. BTW I can't seem to find any reference to Night's Mantle, is it an epic level spell? Nah. It's in LoD. 5th level, I think. [qoute]It entirely depends what they find in their travels, and monks SR is insanely high for a pretty low cost. Perhaps they might be a party of 25th-30th level monks, and Arcane casters with spell traps? :) That would be a somewhat deadly combination to anyone on the realms.[/quote] What's a "spell trap"? Yep, I am wrong. Now this is a man I like arguing with. He admits to a mistake, yet fights on! You go! I believe I originally suggested you put constructs in there, with that in mind :) Oh. Well, they won't choke if they don't need to breath. I realise all this, but I'm still at a loss as to see why the PC's would be fumbling around in their PORTABLE HOLE for swords, staves, items, and what not? I'd assume they would actually be carrying them. I intetepted your post as saying they'd carry any item they might need in the Portable Hole, hence my reaction. Perhaps the PCs have a trap in wait for him and his 60+ guests. Anyway, how is he going to teleport his 60+ Lichs around? Does he have an Epic level spell GATE 60 Lichs? Not even the Demon and Devil princes can gate in 60 servants in ONE round. Are they ALL going to teleport in? If so, many of them run the risk of teleporting onto each other! (Telefrag!) He can't use teleportation circle, because that's only 5ft radius. They made a "teleportation plan"- each one knows where to teleport. Larloch goes in first, analayzes the situation, decides where to situate each lich to the maximum advantage, and tells them through the Hivemind\Rary's Telepathic Bond. According to my interptritation intelligence is thinking(problem solving), learning, and remembering. Wisdom is perceiving, interpruting, which is why "Wise" people are the ones are not fooled easily, and being "intelligent" does not mean you are "wise". I guess you think differently, thats ok (and that's what D&D is about). Correct, yet planning is still Int, as far as I can see. Because an undead has no soul, once it is destroyed in my games, they cannot be brought back. Lich's are the exception with their phylactery of course. If you want undead to be raised over and over again, IMO, you are making undead far more powerful than they should be. It may not be the " core rules", but again, D&D is about bending the rules to the way you think is most fun for everyone. Here I have to disagree with you. In this discussion we cannot use House Rules, becuase in my Forgotten Realms the Shadow King is in his true level of power (46), and that'd complicate matters for you, won't it? Anyway, undead beings can be Ressuructed, ce la vie. Having Undead that just don't die is not fun, if you want to create new undead, you have to do it from slayed living creatures. Why not die? They can die, no problem. I am just saying, if you'll kill Larloch but leave on lich alive, the lich will make sure someone casts True Ressuruction on Larloch, and then on all the others, who will all turn themselves into liches again. Depends on how you look at it. When you die in D&D, your soul is trapped on whatever plane of exsistance you belong in. Incorrect. When you die in FR, your soul goes to the Fugue Plane. After about a tenday, it reaches it's place in it's god's realm, or in the Wall of the Damned or in the City of the Damned (whatever it's called). Ressurection is about opening a path for the soul to return to the body, and sometimes the soul doesn't want to return, in most adventurers case, it does. The spell Trap the Soul traps the soul, making it unable to move onwards, to where it should go, and making ressuruction impossible. Let's forget the idea of stacking, and think more along the lines of 6 characters all excelling in certain areas (A mage with 25+ Int, a cleric with 25+ wis, a sorc with 25+ CHA, a fighter with 25+ str, all combine together to work as one well oiled machine), rather than 60 monkeys with all the same strengths and weaknesses (a bit like undead really). What weaknesses? Stop talking about using "the great weakness of all Undead" and do it! That would be a very good idea, the characters would have to use their WISDOM to determine if they are being mislead or not. Sure. I just wonder- is Larloch better in decieving or are they better in determining. Yes I agree that he USED to traverse the planes, so he is NOT anymore, so he is not advancing 20+ levels in 40 years like someone here suggested. It wasn't me, nothing to do with me. Since PnP D&D is practically based on a lot of luck (d20!) to factor out luck would be an incorrect thing to do, IMO. I agree. I did not "factor it". I did not say "Larloch will be lucky". Due to his highly magical nature, he could probably detect it upon them, and then prepare for that. Perhaps the PC's will have to masks its presence from him (they will have to think of that themselves). You are the PCs. What do you do? Perhaps they would do the same to him, which could be devistating due to the amount of artifacts floating around (Larloch looses his casting ability anyone? could happen! Luck of the dice). If they cast Disjunction, they might lose casting abilities, not him. Anyway, Larloch can't fail the save. He most certainly would, but in this case IF the PCs found it, they wouldn't have to stick around for a fight. And won't reach his phylactery. I like your tactic of Larloch just simply outliving them, then enacting his revenge. If I were him, I'd simply ignore the PC's (because I think a clever bunch of epic level characters could pose a problem for him) and just go around picking off their lovec ones, friends, and allies until they leave me alone. Nice thinking. Well, I do the other one soon, but now I'm off to lunch. Savras
LordHell 09-10-03, 10:47 PM	I won't reply until you've replied to my second one, to be fair :) You are convincing me slowly that a 25th level party will struggle considerably in this task, and would need some extreme luck or some insider knowledge on their side. I think a party of 30th levels should be able to handle him though, altho destroying him forever is nigh impossible (there are a few characters in the realms who fit this catagory), and in all reality the chances of an adventuring party all making it to 30th level alive is somewhere in the realms of 0.00000001% :) Oh and I choose to disregard 2nd edition Larloch (42nd level) in favour of 3rd edition Larloch because I consider it impractical that anyone can reach 35th+ level and remain on the prime as a "mortal".
kedi 09-11-03, 02:12 AM	this is not workimg, ok its fun but anti lorlochists finds good idea, we counter them, they find our mistakes and they counter it and so on, really fun but we dont agree and i guess we never will, this is all we agree on :smirk:
Savras 09-11-03, 03:13 AM	Originally posted by kedi this is not workimg, ok its fun but anti lorlochists finds good idea, we counter them, they find our mistakes and they counter it and so on, really fun but we dont agree and i guess we never will, this is all we agree on :smirk: Kedi, you did notice he said he is slowly getting convined? I have a feeling LordHell is not your regular Joe Poster, he said two things that most posters would never say, and another thing I only saw myself say- "I was wrong" is first and formost, an astounding thing to say. The second is "I am getting convinced", which showes he came into an argument with an open mind, and thus was the first person I ever met, or heard of, that did so, or that I pried his mind open, and he admits it, which means he has a lot of guts- and and open mind (now, at least). :) (I would use my own custom smilie, but I am not at home, so these'll have to do). The third is "Point conceded". I never saw anyone but myself use that. Most people just don't respond, move on to a diffrent point and try to act as if they were never beaten. So, kudos LordHell, and thanks for giving me time to answer your secong post. We go... Savras
Savras 09-11-03, 04:00 AM	May I ask something? Instead of just putting in an extra [/b] tag, just delete the first one. I do so, and save you the repeated deletes :) Originally posted by LordHell Somebody brought up the point implying "Larloch is 2000 years old, he can do anything!!". I simply am saying that just because Larloch is 2000 years old, doesn't mean he knows EVERYTHING. Like I mentioned earlier, he might spend 40 years studying one thing due to his long life span, accomplish things slower, relatively speaking. As for "Power", take an elf that has lived for a few hundred years, does that automatically make him more powerful than a Human who has lived for 30? No. Agreed. I think you will agree, though, that Larloch 2000 years are an advantage, giving him time to create and perfect his plans. They are not, however, the thing that gives him his "oomph". No, no he's not. Take away his spells, and he is not much. Alas my books are not with me, but I think you will find his touch does 1d10(+ something?), curses you and mayhap something else... Add to that his artifacts, and voila! Also, how do you intend to take his spellcasting away? And remember, he will always flee Antimagic Fields and will never enter Dead Magic Zones. This is the reason he relies on an army for protection. A dragon however, has wing buffets, it's BREATH, massive hitpoints, powerful attacks, and can probably fight for a long time before becoming fatigued. Larloch can fight forever without tiring, he is undead. But agreed, without spells the Shadow King is greatly weakened. How will you take his spells away? Nothing to do with the point. In that case, I am confused. In the post I was quoting, and I quote the part I answered:C) See above, and what's an army worth when it can only operate in the darkness? Another exploit. So, as I see it, you said Larloch's army is worthless as it can only operate in darkness, and I countered by saying that most of Larloch's army *can*, in fact, operate in full daylight. However, as you state, I misunderstood. Care to enlighten me? I would be inclined to say there are many BELOW the levels of the PC (20-25th), but I would say there would only be at most THREE ABOVE the level of the PCs. As they are supposed to be Netherese Arcanists, they cannot be below level 21. Why must we insist on using blatant numbers to put our points across? Have not the latest wars taught any of you that numbers mean diddly squat without proper tactics and preperation? And mages (which a large number of his Lich's will be) are probably the class that is weakest without proper preperation. While somewhat correct, at 20th level and above, preparing for most anything with the right combination of spells is easier. You cannot say that Larloch has been preparing for 2000 years for this party to attack him, he would have general defenses about his place for general purposes. [:P] I dunno about "general purposes", I assumed the defenses were the for defense[/:P]. However, think. What can threaten Larloch? The Chosen, the greatest dragons, the gods.... and Epic Level parties. Not such a long list, eh? So, I think he might have some tricks in store for an Epic Level Party, though pf course nothing specific to a certain group (like commonly used spell\tactics), until they have encountered once (and then he will use magic to find everything he can about them). I would say there would be around 20-50 artifacts scattered across the whole of Faerun, with perhaps another 10-20 undiscovered. Oh, that's sounds allright. It's a big place, with many gods, a long history, and a few powerful creatures roaming around. Still correct. For example: Remember the time of troubles? I'm sure you do. Just think of what the Gods would have brought with them - given away, lost when they were defeated, and what not. Wrong. The gods were cast down and were cast down in spirit, but not in flesh. That is why they needed human bodies. They did not bring their artifacts with them. What are 60 Lichs going to do in a Anti-Magic zone? Disjunction it and pray when it is destroyed it doesn't take out all their spells and items at the same time? Errr... yes? Or get the hell out of there. The lower end of the food-chain only hit as +1, the higher end of the food chain arn't that numerous. Same thing about Celestials, though... For this party? No. The shadow king has been alive for 2000 years, he hasn't been preparing for attack for 2000 years. Point half-conceded. Make that 500 years total spent to defend his crypt. This is D&D, there are NUMEROUS ways. Off the top of my head, perhaps they could find some way of disguising themselves as undead and mingle in with his army? Sure they could, only I find it hard to believe it will help them with the spellweb, or help them avoiding detection as intruders (though undead ones) by the Bone Bat sentinels. So while they enemy spell casters are getting rid of these, what are the PC's doing, sitting on their butts playing poker? It depends. Did they bring a deck of cards along? :P No, they are fighting the other 59 liches, of course! The wonders of the Telepathic Bond (or of the shout "It's mine, you kill the others!"). Ok, let's say he gives out his most valued items to his servants, in gates the 60+ Lichs like you said.. disjunction away!, Now let's say there are 10 artifacts in that group, that's a 10% chance something VERY bad is going to happen to those Lichs. Alas, you are slightly wrong. That chance... wait! I haven't my SRD nor my books, so I do not know exactly what's going on. There are two options: A. There is a 10% that they might lose their spellcasting abilities, but then there's a DC 23 Will saving throw, which they'll pass, so no problem there, or B. They draw the attention of a powerful being. Well, I think they can survive it's ire, and if not, well... they'll retreat, regroup, and fight it 'till it goes away (or, if it is a deity {Lesser or higher, I think}, 'till they are toast). Lich's weakness is they don't fight very well. Take away their spells (through whatever means, anti-magic fields, or just protect yourself from spells) and you have a bunch of modly bones and rags. They can do many nifty things- they can throw balls of Coldfire, kill you with a touch, paralyze you with a touch, and so on. But they are much weaker without spells. Which is why they will flee from Dead Magic Zone, disjunct Anti Magic Fields and Gate powerful monsters at magic-immune buggers. If you are unfortunately enough to stumble upon all 60+ of them at once, well, it's nothing a little earthquake or insect plague can't take care off Your point about undead not being effected is incorrect, I see no mention of such thing. I do however see mention of creeping doom being subjective to damage reduction, but we don't want creeping doom, because that doesn't make spell casting imposible now doesn't it? Are you sure Insect Plague inhibits spellcasting? Again, I haven't my SRD nor PHB, so would you be kind enough to quote the appropriate passages form the SRD? If you can't, I will when I get home, no worries. :) I'm not familiar with Epic Level stuff as I've already stated. Me niether... but I am doing my best :) Let's say your Mage got off a timestop first, shapechanged into a mind flayer, then extracted Larlochs brain, he would be defeated. I dunno, because it is supposed to kill the victim, but the victim is already dead. I will ask in the Monster Board and give you the answer, OK? I refer you to this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1304975#post1304975). All responses as of now say that it would not effect the lich. He could do that, provided he won Initative. If not he'd take some hits, and: A. If not severly wounded, do that. B. If severly wounded (50% or more) his contingency kicks in. This horse has been flogged to death by now, and how is he going to "kill your PCs". When I say kill your PCs I mean battle, and he pulls out this artifact or that. And his liches do the same. Trust me, it won't take more than one round for the entire gang, my six PCs killed many a BBEG in a round... bloody munchkins :P While he's dispelling the wall of force, AND THEN teleporting, what are the PC's doing? No, they are fighting the other liches! There's plenty of them to go around. Your wrong about insect plague, it makes ALL SPELL CASTING IMPOSSIBLE and LIMITS VISION TO 10 FEET, there is NO mention of undead at ALL. As I said, I want that checked out, and shall do so as soon as I get home. Larloch and his goons have not been fighting Epic level parties for the past 2000 years, he is not a gladiator. There is a difference between a group of 10th level Knights trying to wipe him out, and one of the most powerful groups on Faerun. Well, recently a group of 16 very powerful Red Wizards tried to take ihm out... but true. I can't really so a point here, though... he can fight just as well. Ditto with the PC's, who acts first is down to luck. True. Just remember the omnipresent Contingency. Hahahaha! ??? I've covered this earlier, if you want to make super-powerful Undead that can be raised over and over again, Kudos to you, but while you're at it, explain to me why someone hasn't taken over Faerun with an army of undead? Because that would vex Lathender, and some pesky priest is bound to cast Gate... anyway, it seems rather expensive way to have an army- you lose a soldier, ressurct him, then kill him to reanimate him? NAH! But, once Larloch dies truely, and his soul passes on, he can be ressuructed. The whole point in Undead is that they are DEAD and CANNOT BE ANIMATED AGAIN. Can you support that from the SRD? Any WotC sourcebook? Each individual PC has a CR of more than 25 (it's not just hitdice, you'd have to give them +2 each due to their powerful items they would carry). I'm not sure what their EL level is, but as I have already mentioned it would be difficult for a 25th level party. OK. I say it would be nigh-impossible, but, each to his own. :) 30th level would be completely different IMO however. Perhaps a 25th level party COULD become 30th level in their campaign to find his important little life source :) Possible. Although I think they'll become dead, they might surprise me. See above. Doesn't mean he'll win though. And I still say with proper planning and tactics, they MIGHT, and they will at least escape with their lives. Well, we'll see about that. Up 'till now, no one came with a tactic to do so, My next post will be about the Insect Plague.. Stay tuned! Savras
kedi 09-11-03, 04:16 AM	I say that we try to kill himm in real dnd and d20 adventures or in ISRP or simply here, vote one as DM and choose one person to play lorloc and 4 person to play PCs, the other liches and etc will be controled by the DM, what do you say, so we can discuss healthy, these are only theories, lets make them alive.
Savras 09-11-03, 06:06 AM	SRD 3.5: Insect Plague Conjuration (Summoning) Level: Clr 5, Drd 5 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 1 round Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level) Effect: One swarm of locusts per three levels, each of which must be adjacent to at least one other swarm Duration: 1 min./level Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No You summon a number of swarms of locusts (one per three levels, to a maximum of six swarms at 18th level). The swarms must be summoned so that each one is adjacent to at least one other swarm (that is, the swarms must fill one contiguous area). You may summon the locust swarms so that they share the area of other creatures. Each swarm attacks any creatures occupying its area. The swarms are stationary after being summoned, and won’t pursue creatures that flee. As we can see, nothing about spellcasting. Onwards towards the next question- what is a locust swarm? The SRD tells us:A locust swarm is a cloud of thousands of winged vermin that devours any organic material in its path. Combat A locust swarm surrounds and attacks any living prey it encounters. A swarm deals 2d6 points of damage to any creature whose space it occupies at the end of its move. Distraction (Ex): Any living creature that begins its turn with a locust swarm in its space must succeed on a DC 12 Fortitude save or be nauseated for 1 round. The save DC is Constitution-based. Skills: A locust swarm has a +4 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks. Doesn't disrupt spells at all. Sorry. Savras
Alratan 09-11-03, 07:39 AM	Savras said I think even the Srinshee is younger than that, and she doesn't have a fortress. According to Cormanthyr the Srinshee was born in the elven realm of Sharrven, which fell in -2770, making her at least 4000 years old. She does have a fortress - the Rule Tower, which was the seat of government in Myth Drannor.
Savras 09-11-03, 08:13 AM	Originally posted by Alratan According to Cormanthyr the Srinshee was born in the elven realm of Sharrven, which fell in -2770, making her at least 4000 years old. She does have a fortress - the Rule Tower, which was the seat of government in Myth Drannor. [/B] ??? Can you shed light on what happened to her, and why she is now on the body of a 10 year old? Also, wasn't that tower overrun by the beasts that roamed Myth Drannor? And, last, I thank you for the correction. Savras Edit: Do you actually read this thread? Is it interesting? Is there anyone else who reads it beside Kedi, LordHell, Pandelume and myself?
Triton 09-11-03, 08:49 AM	In all honesty guys, my favorite NPC is a necromancer of high level like Larloch. If I found out he was under attack, I would offer my aid in exchange for magical knowledge or items. The knowledge of a mythal like spell web for my lair would be well worth risking my neck along with some of my lich aids.:smirk:
the_heart 09-11-03, 09:23 AM	Savras, i've been following it, v.interesting. not sure i agree with either side in totality, really depends on the power level of the attackers IMO 20th level party=toast , 30th Level damn lucky to succeed but still 90%+ toast 40th+ stands a fair chance increasing from there up, but at this level nothing stays dead for long and most people accept it's pretty pointless to do more than stop your opponents plans, not him. IMC this is why the good guy big guns don't actually all get together and blast everybody else.... have noticed some discrepancies in some of the examples <haven't got the hang of the quotes bit yet sorry> (doesn't the victim of timestop have practical immunity to physical effects therefore mindflayer can't suck his brain out, assuming a 4000 yr old lich still has a brain) ( can't remember where i read it but there is a statement out there somewhere saying that animated dead can't be re-re-animated<if you see what i mean>not sure if that applies to intelligent undead though)
Triton 09-11-03, 10:40 AM	Full proof plan!!! Myrkul gets Larloch to done the Crown thatr contains the last of Myrkul's power. Myrkul then absorbs Larloch and all his undead minions power to reelivate himself to lesser godhood. He then destroys Velsharoon and becomes an intermediate god of the Undead allied with Bane his longtime ally.
Alratan 09-11-03, 11:05 AM	Savras: The Srinshee teleported herself and the Rule Tower to an unknown location (which had a whole vault of artifacts in) away, after the carnage following Coronal Etagarim's death, so by the Fall it was not present. Why (or if) she is in a 10 year old body is unknown to me, remember she could just be shapeshifted for a laugh. I do read the thread, and posted on it a couple of pages back, I believe my final anti-Larloch plan was nearly flawless.
Silver_mane96 09-11-03, 01:27 PM	I think an easier way of doing it would be to has a level 30-something rogue with uber buffed dex from items, wishes, and other magical treasures with stacked haste enchantments rush LArloch once the party spots him... on the rogues person is a hidden epic level spell developed with varied ward seeds created by the party's wizard... the spell would have variations of time stop, hold monster, planar binding, dimensional anchor, among other spells designed to contain, laced with a variation of antimagic field that curtains Larloch and the party with properties of a prismatic sphere... since Larloach has basically been rendered powerless more or less the PC with just a couple of melee chars could reduce him down to bone dust in a couple round of full attacks with epic level weapons... TA Da one dead Archlich who thought he was tough SH!T
Israfel666 09-11-03, 01:35 PM	Note: If I were to choose, I'd be on the anti-Larloch side, but sometimes I feel the need to defend him too... Originally posted by Silver_mane96 I think an easier way of doing it would be to has a level 30-something rogue with uber buffed dex from items, wishes, and other magical treasures with stacked haste enchantments rush LArloch once the party spots him... on the rogues person is a hidden epic level spell developed with varied ward seeds created by the party's wizard... the spell would have variations of time stop, hold monster, planar binding, dimensional anchor, among other spells designed to contain, laced with a variation of antimagic field that curtains Larloch and the party with properties of a prismatic sphere... since Larloach has basically been rendered powerless more or less the PC with just a couple of melee chars could reduce him down to bone dust in a couple round of full attacks with epic level weapons... TA Da one dead Archlich who thought he was tough SH!T 1) You have to spot him. That is not easy by any mean. 2) If you do get to him, and if the epic rogue wins initiative and "encapsulates" him in that super-trap spell, he just casts Mordenkainen's Disjunction on his turn = no more trap, and then uses a quickened teleport.
Silver_mane96 09-11-03, 01:52 PM	1) You have to spot him. That is not easy by any mean. 2) If you do get to him, and if the epic rogue wins initiative and "encapsulates" him in that super-trap spell, he just casts Mordenkainen's Disjunction on his turn = no more trap, and then uses a quickened teleport.. well since your DEX it taken into account for initiative I think the rogue would be the winner in that regard... and as far as Mordenkainen's Disjunction, i was led to believe that epic spells are not subject to normal dispellingmethods... besides you have to over come the DC over the spell with opposed by caster level+ spell DC so inother wods you need some where over 60-70 at least IMO... also since the sntimagic field instead of being in normal form has been modified as a curtain... so the sphere is hugged between two different fields... meaning the liches, vamps and what have you are stuck outside of it with no way to get in... and Larloch is stuck on the inside with no magic at his disposal... and no quick means of getting out... he would have to stand and face them with whatever he has with him at the time... hence the the melee fighters then proceed to pound him flat.... i have other ideas to add to it as well if you like...
LordHell 09-11-03, 05:24 PM	Savras it seems they changed insect plague in 3.5... I'm not to up-to-date with 3.5 as of yet, but in 3.0 the spell goes like this: "A horde of creeping, hopping, flying insects swarm in a thick cloud when the caster casts this spell. The insects limit vision to 10ft, and spellcasting within the cloud is impossible....." Obviously 3.5 is correct, but now you can see why I was defending the spell! It's a pity they changed the WIERD spell in 3rd Ed, as that could have been used to defeat Larloch (you face your most feared enemy). I don't know enough about this situation as it stands (epic level stuff, 3.5 stuff, or much about Larloch), so I will conceed defeat(for now). I might go buy some of the books and school myself up, then perhaps try out a few things. I think prehaps the PC's would have to have some insider knowledge from a diety of some sort, or an item specificially crafted to take out Larloch, and you would only allow this as a DM if you were comfortable with letting the PC's take out one of Faeruns most powerful NPCs. If you watch any movie or read any fantasy book, the heros are always much weaker than the enemy and take him out in the end with some powerful item that someone gave them :) I think what WOULD be fun however is some sort of online session regarding this matter....(if you use IRC you can use dice rolling scripts and what not). I don't think that would be impossible to organize and it would be a good introduction to epic level adventures for some of us :) P.S. I blame my open minded posts on my DM nature - this is a D&D board after all, and IMO D&D is all about having an open mind. :) Thanks anyway.
Savras 09-11-03, 07:05 PM	Originally posted by LordHell I don't know enough about this situation as it stands (epic level stuff, 3.5 stuff, or much about Larloch), so I will conceed defeat(for now). I might go buy some of the books and school myself up, then perhaps try out a few things. Nooooooooooooooo!!!! Wha! Now what? This was the best argument in years! Oh well, tomorrow, or the day after that, I will try to fight of Alartan and Silver Mane. Just one quick question, Mane: A. How did your mates get past the spellweb? B. Why isn't Larloch flying? C. So, if the liches can't get in, how can your PCs? D. Where, exactly, is Larloch just standing? When your Rogue sets foot in the Crypt he is seen by the sentinels (flying things of many sorts). Then the army of lesser undead, liches and vampires attack him. With artifacts. You cannot "sneak" through the spellweb. Savras
Crust 09-11-03, 07:18 PM	This is quite a huge thread. After looking at all the posts, I can see that there really hasn't been any progress. I can't imagine any PCs getting within relative spitting distance with Larloch. His cabal of vampires alone could be enough to thwart epic PCs for years, to say nothing about the liches under Larloch's command, each of whom are probably in the epic range, and each of whom would probably give any one of the Chosen reason enough to leave them alone. As was mentioned in the article I included from Greenwood, just leave Larloch alone, and "don't go there." Sure, it might be fun to be able to boast, "Our group is hunting Larloch." Unfortunately, if the DM is worth his/her weight in gold, he or she will know full well that the PCs will never actually battle Larloch, let alone get the upper hand on 60+ liches.
LordHell 09-11-03, 07:45 PM	Why not time travel and kill him? :)
Triton 09-11-03, 08:09 PM	If I DMed a group that wanted to attack Larloch. I would discourage it. Let the party know that Khelban, EL, and most other powerhouses find it foulish in the least. Then let them get their plans together. The night before the attack have them hear a knock at the door or some such. When they answer it is a normal skeleton with a rusted scroll tube that he attempts to hand to the character. In the tube is a list of the party members and their obituaries. This should remind them that Larloch might be reclusive, but so is El. And they both pay attention to the outside world even if they wished they didn/t have to.:behold:
Pandelume 09-12-03, 10:29 AM	This is sort of turning to a FR version of "Do Balrogs have wings" arguemnt you get on LOTR forums. :D Why do peopel keep bring up anti-magic zone I thought Mystra did not take kindly to people who cast anti-magic fields\zones.
Alratan 09-12-03, 10:41 AM	Mystra dislikes dead magic, she has no objection to anti magic. Indeed my strategy depends on using anti-magic which the PCs are unaffected by, but Larloch is.
Silver_mane96 09-12-03, 10:45 AM	[QUOTE]A. How did your mates get past the spellweb? B. Why isn't Larloch flying? C. So, if the liches can't get in, how can your PCs? D. Where, exactly, is Larloch just standing? When your Rogue sets foot in the Crypt he is seen by the sentinels (flying things of many sorts). Then the army of lesser undead, liches and vampires attack him. With artifacts.QUOTE] A. I believe i Noted that they where around or within the spellweb when the Rouge activates it. B. Even if flying the spellweb is a sphere shape... so if he is flying he is still stuck within it, and from all the disenchantments and spells aimed at him he would drop like a stone over a cliff unless he has wings... C. see answer to A D. if you really want to get technical you could have the rouge go ethreal... As far as I understood most spells of detection like see invisibility and true seeing miss such things since you are effectively not on the same plane of existence... BTW, there are certain spells to get by most things, Passwall Dim Door Gate just to name a few...
the_heart 09-12-03, 11:02 AM	just a minor point but artifacts aren't affected by anti-magic are they? btw am i the only one that thinks most epic fights between prepared individuals will ultimately end up in a stalemate...hence the reason why El and Fzoul and the like try to avoid head on conflicts. even if you find a way to kill larloch this time, he will have several alternative ways of coming back that don't rely on his phylactery. same as PC's don't always stay where you bury them...... this is an interesting exercise in ingenuity, but i have one question for everybody, what is the minimum char.lev. you think you would need a party of 4 to be to have a 50 % chance to succeed at slaying larloch, even temporarily? my answer is at least 40th (this applies even to those who believe larloch is virtually untouchable, and try not to be too outrageously biased, try to consider it objectively)
Savras 09-12-03, 06:19 PM	Originally posted by Silver_mane96 A. I believe i Noted that they where around or within the spellweb when the Rouge activates it. How did they get past it? Well, you say by disabling a portion\using antimagic\because I said so. Ok. But Larloch now knows they come, as do his liches and vampires. He is in his "Reception Room", protected by many spells and girded with his artifacts, as are his liches and vampires, and whatever space left (the liches levitate\fly, the vemps also or stand on the walls\cieling) is occupied by lesser undead, with incorporeal undead standing in them. Your rogue opens the door. Guess what happens now? B. Even if flying the spellweb is a sphere shape... so if he is flying he is still stuck within it, and from all the disenchantments and spells aimed at him he would drop like a stone over a cliff unless he has wings... Larloch is unaffected by the Spellweb. Anyway, the flying was a mistake. It was meant to show that he's hard to reach, but I think my answer for A took care of that, :) C. see answer to A Same here :) D. if you really want to get technical you could have the rouge go ethreal... As far as I understood most spells of detection like see invisibility and true seeing miss such things since you are effectively not on the same plane of existence... True Seeing sees Ethereal, I think. BTW, there are certain spells to get by most things, Passwall Dim Door Gate just to name a few... [/B] None of which work against the Spellweb, because that's the POINT of the Spellweb- it was created so people *can't* teleport into the Crypt, and it is not a wall. Savras
Alratan 09-13-03, 05:13 AM	The spell-web is a permenant spell isn't it, which presumably extends to the very edge of the crypt. One casting of disjunction and the entire spell web falls. There is virtually no risk of hitting an artifact as the MD and the spellweb only need to overlap by a tiny amount. Another way of killing Larloch is to use my aforementioned epic spell which creates a mile diamater antimagic field, go Ethereal, and have the transdimensional strike feat, (from UE) which allows you to attack things on the ethereal from the material and vice-versa as an extraordinary ability. Larloch's artifactrs still work, but he can't cast any spells or use any other magical effects, he should go down quite quickly them, as he has an appalingly lows AC when magic dosen't work, and can be power attacked to death.
Pandelume 09-14-03, 06:15 PM	Trouble is that no one knows anything about the spell web noting, its unique to Larloch and cover the Area around the Warlock cypt. So no one knows what would happen if you cast spell on it. It was cast before the fall or After with the help\premission of Azuth or Mystra. Its sort of know about because its his first line of defence not his only one. Think of at as really power garden fence or warning sign. :D
Ulmo 09-15-03, 12:44 AM	I'd call you all sadistic, necrophilic, hippophilic freaks, but that would just be beating a dead horse.
Legacy-Warrior 09-23-03, 10:01 PM	Granted I'm new here and am not the most educated on the Realms lore and whatnot but here is my thought (along with the request of please not killing me): I ask this in recognition that the gods have their own battles with other gods and agends that only the most enlightened clerics would begin to understand. Why could not a few clerics of true and faithful hearts put an end to Larloch? In WotSQIII-Condemnation Tzirik, an apparently faithful cleric, opens a gate for his god. Note that he didn't summon him, he sorta invited him in, which seems reasonable to me anyway when dealing with a god. Anyway if a pair of clerics, one of Lathander and one of Klemvor (sp?), requested the same of thier god with one of those funky beads and thier gods agreed they, the gods, should be able to wipe the entire stronghold away as well as his little box. As thier individual interests are concerned I think they may at least consider it given how little effort it would require for two gods to smash an uber-undead. Granted that Larloch is massivly intelligent but he can't know what every single cleric is thinking and doing at the exact same time, he has better things to be doing (I'd assume anyway). My thoughts, take them or leave them but please don't kill me.
Pandelume 09-24-03, 11:14 AM	Gods just can't go around "owning" stuff in modren day Torli thats the main reason.
Nightingale 7 09-26-03, 05:53 PM	Legacy_Warrior,your point is interesting,but your example is flawed. S P O I L E R ! ! ! Tzirik invited Vhaeraun because he has ordered him to do so.Moreover Vhaeraun's goal was the destruction of Loth,which was a grand goal of the deity,and even then Selvetarm came to protect the altar of Loth. END OF SPOILER ! ! ! In the case of Larloch,the clerics' gods have no personal reason to interfere,since Larloch is almost nothing to them.Even to an undead hating god,like Lathander,Larloch is nothing more than a nasty itch,and he can't risk his divine status for such a reason.And even in the off chance that a good deity answered the call,some other deity might spring to Larloch's protection like Velsharoon(god of undeath) or Shar(she may want to gather ALL surviving netherese arcanists under her wing).
Savras 09-26-03, 06:19 PM	I do not think Mystra will be very happy with the destruction of the most powerful spellcaster that is using her Weave. Velsharoon would be agahst at such a dreadful attack on his power base, and will never let that slide. Cyric and Shar, and, indeed, all of the other gods, would also be unhappy with any god manifesting on Toril in self to do something like that. I can see Cyric asking a priest to summon him in the middle of Waterdeep, while Bane walks in the Moonsea helping the Zhents, Savras taking Tashalar and so on and so on. Any god that will manifest on Toril will probably draw the attacks of several others. Savras
Klyden 09-27-03, 09:42 PM	I know it's a little late to post this but Shaan the Serpent-Queen? Who is she? I've never heard of her in the Forgotten Realms! What are her stats (in 3rd Edition)?
Quicknickel 10-23-03, 11:28 AM	Definatley munchkin material....I agree that you should kill off the party...better yet, I am reminded of an article once published by ICE when posed a question on why mages in Middle Earth kept their powers hidden. I no longer have that article, but allow me to give the gist of it with Larloch substituting for Sauron. The first time your characters dare to mention the name of Larloch, he hears it and casts a spell on the party from 300 miles away, summoning them to his presence. He then imprisons them and begins torturing them. First he begins by destroying/subsuming all their favorite magic items. Then he casts spells on them to reduce all their stats to 1, permanently. Then he releases them to continue adventuring. Why? Because he is not nice, and your characters are definately munchkins and need a severe humiliation. Serve them up some colossal slices of humble pie and start another campaign.
ENHenry 10-23-03, 01:56 PM	There is a point that I have not yet seen anyone bring up about Larloch in this thread: Larloch is not "Evil" in the traditional sense. Is he evil? Yes. Capable of dark-hearted acts? Of Course. But Threatening? Not at all. Larloch has remained off the radar because he is one of those rarest of evil creatures: A being who does not desire domination over others. His army of liches I believe are other Netherese wizards who willingly follow him. His machinations are exploring the finer points of magic. He only threatens those who invade his home. His retributions only come when he himself is threatened. Therefore, gods like Kelemvor and Lathander, while despising what Larloch is and having no truck with him, do not actively seek champions to slay him. If they did, and made their own personal appearances, Mystra might well make an appearance ON LARLOCH'S BEHALF. So those adventurers who decide to nail Larloch to the wall are doing it of their own free will; no deity cries for his destruction. They are willingly stirring up the pot and making the **** rise to the top. Therefore, if they can handle it with no extra help, fine; if they can't, it's on their heads. All Larloch wants is to study magic, commune with his Lich-buddies, and be left alone.
The_Sleeper 10-23-03, 02:39 PM	This is a little off topic, but it concerns Larloch so ill post it here.;) Who do you guys think Larloch really is? Its common knowledge that he was an Archwizard so he ruled over an enclave, but thats as far as anyone has gone. So, who do you all speculate he is? I personally think he may be Ioulaum, who changed his name after his defeat by those Alhoons some time back. But in the North books it claims he was "slain" so Ioulaum might very well be dead. I also think Larloch might be the Terraseer. Anyone else have any opinions?
kedi 10-23-03, 03:57 PM	Originally posted by The_Sleeper This is a little off topic, but it concerns Larloch so ill post it here.;) Who do you guys think Larloch really is? Its common knowledge that he was an Archwizard so he ruled over an enclave, but thats as far as anyone has gone. So, who do you all speculate he is? I personally think he may be Ioulaum, who changed his name after his defeat by those Alhoons some time back. But in the North books it claims he was "slain" so Ioulaum might very well be dead. I also think Larloch might be the Terraseer. Anyone else have any opinions? my opinion: Go back to sleep:P
Quicknickel 10-23-03, 04:23 PM	Youre welcome to make Larloch anyone you wish, as thats what making the realms yours is all about, but for my money he wouldnt be the ruler of an enclave as they mostly died when the cities crashed suddenly (though you might wonder how all of them didnt have any feather fall spells readied). There are no spells attributed to Larloch in the Netherese module, but we are all familiar with his Minor Drain, so its possible he has just renamed himself. I dont see him as all that powerful when Netheril falls or that would make him sitting still for the last few millenia, since he is 32nd level (or 47th, depending on which info you use). Then again, epic spellcasters have plenty of other ways to burn experience, besides going up levels. Its an interesting question.
Quicknickel 10-23-03, 04:27 PM	Alratan, how can you cast a mile-wide anti-magic epic spell then go ethereal? Doesnt that require magic?
Quicknickel 10-23-03, 04:32 PM	LordHell, time travel is a big no-no....its past epic level (11th level?) and there are only 3 gates still functioning with this capability and even they have severe restrictions, not least of which is finding they even exist and then actually finding them.
Israfel666 10-23-03, 04:40 PM	Originally posted by Quicknickel LordHell, time travel is a big no-no....its past epic level (11th level?) and there are only 3 gates still functioning with this capability and even they have severe restrictions, not least of which is finding they even exist and then actually finding them. Time conduit is actually a 9th level spell, and one that can be very easily converted to 3.5 too (except for the fact that time elementals are not present in any sourcebook that I know of).
Quicknickel 10-23-03, 05:24 PM	Yeeeesh!! I read through this whole thread just today and made several comments along the way, but I want to finish up with some statements that have nothing to do with the power levels of Larloch or the PCs in question. It seems there is a campaign thats simply gotten out of the DMs hands and this is nothing new. I suppose we all have seen that sort of thing happen, even at low levels. Where does a campaign go after the PCs kill Larloch? Apparently they have to go killing gods, and Ive heard my share of those sorts of campaigns and Im really glad Ive never been with a group that went there. If its fun for the party, then by all means, slay all the gods, too, and set themselves up as the powers that be. Personally, I doubt this group is all that experienced playing. This whole thing wouldnt sound so ridiculous in the hands of a truly experienced party (Im talking about player experience, not character experience, of course), and it definately sounds ridiculous. Experienced players DO enjoy high level challenges. I know I do (and Ive been playing since before D&D even came out---yes, I still have my Chainmail 2nd edition on the shelf behind me). Its difficult in the extreme to play high level games. In the 2nd edition, only human-like NPCs could challenge a high level party because monsters could only get so mean (play Bloodstone and find out). 3rd edition has made it possible to go to outlandish levels and still have fun (though high level NPCs are still the best bet for a real challenge). Regardless, for a party to be really experienced in 3rd edition, and to have mastered the system enough for really enjoyable play, they would have to have played in several campaigns. It takes 13 1/3 battles "at level" to go up a level (and most DMs throw in plenty of encounters that garner little or no experience for higher level characters) and 266 "at level" encounters to make it to 20th level. Even fanatics who play every week, year after year, for 10 hours at a setting would only have enough time to have gone to 20th level maybe twice...the game has simply not been out that long. What Im really saying, in short, is this has been a fun thread, but I feel most of us are talking to someone with little experience in the gaming arena. But hey, if youre having fun, by all means, keep doing what youre doing. Glad Im not you.
Quicknickel 10-23-03, 05:33 PM	I dont know any Time Conduit spell, but Im sure there is one, since youre quoting it. I do know that time travel is supposed to be a complete no-no by past supplements and simply impossible because of restricitions imposed by Mystra after the fall of Netheril. I also know that contradictions by TSR are as common as oak leaves in the Midwest, so Im not surprised here, either. I have no idea what anything would be in 3.5 because I have not and never will buy a complete set of books at full price when there should have only been errata posted on the web (sure Ill buy them some day in a buy-out bin just to own them...I have every set of rules published by TSR and many many modules and other such stuff...Im a long time fan). I only went to 3rd edition because the players in my campaign wanted to upgrade and it was a way to start them again at 1st level and learn a new system.
Lord_Anthrax 10-23-03, 06:33 PM	Well, after reading this all over, I have one thing to say: it could be worse. They could be planning to hunt down the portal to the Tomb Tapper's Tomb(see the new Underdark book)and go loot it...
KRONOS 10-23-03, 06:51 PM	Posted by Quicknickel ...but I feel most of us are talking to someone with little experience in the gaming arena. Ah, the misconceptions of the judgemental and uninformed. I have been playing for 16 years. I posted the question because my players asked if I could set that up for them. I wanted to hear what others had to say about the topic with regards to defences, ect. A DM with "little experience" would not have asked and just thrown something together that would have been balanced with the parties current level. I again thank all who posted. Just an update. I have successfully convinced the party through NPC's that an assult at this time would be terminal. They say they have agreed to drop the idea altogether. However, they take every opportunity to get info on the lich and his fortress if possible. I feel they will try again at a much later date if they still live.
Reince SilverLance 10-23-03, 07:47 PM	I'm a bit rusty on my Nethril history, but wasen't it Ioulaum who invented Ioun Stones? That could possibly be a theory as to why Larloch has over two dozen Ioun stones in his possesion. I wouldn't rule him out being Ioulaum. As for the Shrinshee. She was in the body of a 200 year old elven woman due to Mystra if I remember correctly. Aye, she does indeed have the Rule Tower, but her, the tower, and the ruling blade of Myth Drannor have retreated from mortal realms until the People "need" her. Anyway.... the argument against if adventurers could take out Larloch. I would have to say not a chance. You can say "if there were armies of good clerics, and supremely powerful adventures, they could do it!" I pose to you this question; if such a force of good were to exist, why would there be any evil, and what fun would the Realms be then? ;) Reince SilverLance
Quicknickel 10-23-03, 08:48 PM	Pretty sure Congenio invented Ioun Stones (originally called Congenio's Pebbles).
Kuje31 10-23-03, 09:00 PM	Originally posted by Quicknickel Pretty sure Congenio invented Ioun Stones (originally called Congenio's Pebbles). Yup. :). His las name was Ioun, and that was what they were renamed as.
The_Sleeper 10-23-03, 09:22 PM	Originally posted by Quicknickel but for my money he wouldnt be the ruler of an enclave as they mostly died when the cities crashed suddenly I am just going by what it says in the LoD book. I could be wrong but i think it specifically says he is one of the last Wizard-Kings or something like that from Netheril, but i dont have the book w/me at the moment so i cant check to make sure. :rolleyes: