Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dargoth 10-10-03, 11:45 PM	I have just seen what has to be the biggest D20 Source book Ive ever seen its the Stargate Source book and it weighs in at a Whopping 488 pages thats 160 more than the FRC. Now what does this have to do with the FR We'll on several occassions Rich B and some of the other developers has said material got cut from FR source books because there wasnt enough room due to size constraints. Now while Im not expecting a 488 page Regional source book (Feel free to shock me) I would like to see larger source books the Unapproachable east weighs in at 190 pages and Silver Marches is only 160 pages. How about making them a little bigger say 240-260 pages for the regional source books. Using the UE as an example Stuff that I really would have liked to have seen Adventures: now using the Silver Marches as an example which did contain some mini adventures this took up 30 pages. This would have pushed UE up to 222 pages on its own Also Full stats for notables for example Tam, The Simbul, the various Zuikors and the Chosen of Talona etc (yes some of these where stated in the FRC but you could have reprinted them as 3.5 Compliant) Template for the Chosen of Talona (hes mentioned but not stated out) I reckon Ive probably got 240 pages with just what Ive listed. Coments?
RobTzu 10-11-03, 02:24 AM	agreed. I wouldn't mind an extra 20 pages of maps in the FRCS, not to mention Npc stats, and just extra fluff. The 3.0 ed FRCS was 39.95 I would pay 49.95 for it if they added the above.
Savras 10-11-03, 08:57 AM	I am all in favour. Some more fluff, people! The Player's Guide will be a measly 192 pages! We want more! Add in some new things, and like a little bit saying "Savras is now a Lesser God" or something, with an explanation why. And a bit about Larloch and his relations with Telamont. Some more depth on the various nations, especially those not covered in the FRCS. Savras
Cunning Linguist 10-11-03, 12:18 PM	whats the price on that Stargate Source book? FRCS put me back quite a bit, if this thing is even bigger, WotC will charge way more then FRCS.
Kain's avatar 10-11-03, 07:02 PM	Originally posted by Cunning Linguist whats the price on that Stargate Source book? FRCS put me back quite a bit, if this thing is even bigger, WotC will charge way more then FRCS. The cost of the printing and paper is like less than $5 of the the cost of the book. Adding 20-30% on top of that will cost them $1-$2 at most, likely less. Only the cost of the writers time is the big part, and even that is generally small, especially considering a lot of it was already written and just cut out for some reason, meaning it wouldn't cost anything but the paper cost to put it in.
RobTzu 10-12-03, 03:00 AM	Originally posted by Kain's avatar The cost of the printing and paper is like less than $5 of the the cost of the book. Adding 20-30% on top of that will cost them $1-$2 at most, likely less. Only the cost of the writers time is the big part, and even that is generally small, especially considering a lot of it was already written and just cut out for some reason, meaning it wouldn't cost anything but the paper cost to put it in. You keep talking like that and Wotc is going to show up at your house with some goons. I hope your real name and address isn't in your bio dude. I will pray for you!
Kain's avatar 10-12-03, 04:11 AM	Originally posted by RobTzu You keep talking like that and Wotc is going to show up at your house with some goons. I hope your real name and address isn't in your bio dude. I will pray for you! Yes, nothing has that personal touch like hired goons... ;) :D
The Spellcasting Sorcerer 10-13-03, 12:30 PM	Originally posted by Savras Add in some new things, and like a little bit saying "Savras is now a Lesser God" or something, with an explanation why. *lol* Oh, I bet you'd like that, wouldn't you, O Lord of Diviners? :D I doubt Azuth would like one of his underlings to be as powerful as he is, though. After all, you never know when that ancient rivalry between you two might flare up again, eh? :angel:
Eltharion 10-13-03, 12:55 PM	Originally posted by Dargoth I have just seen what has to be the biggest D20 Source book Ive ever seen its the Stargate Source book and it weighs in at a Whopping 488 pages thats 160 more than the FRC. Ummm. Yeah, but what's the typeface like in the Stargate sourcebook? A word count comparison would mean a lot more than a page count. Didn't they reduce the type in the FRCS to near-unreadable in order to cram more in or something? Elth
Rasalon 10-13-03, 04:16 PM	The Stargate SG-1 books is $50 but is well worth it (one of the best d20 books I've picked up since... actually the Babylon 5 one!) But it does contain more than just a sourcebook and I don't know (if any) other books will be coming out for it so it's pretty comprehensive. It's always nice to have extra pages though. Web enhancements are one of the worst ideas to come along in recent years. They have actually put me off buying smaller companies product, I mean why should I buy the book when half of it's not in there!!! No, thank you.
Broken Mind 10-13-03, 07:26 PM	My first post right here. Wow.... About the so mentioned "fluff": I recently read on some other German boards and on Sean K. Reynolds homepage that Wizards of the Coast won't publish any other FR-supplements like the Silver Marches Sourcebook or Lords of Darkness where the portion of fluff was very high. That's because of the success these two books had. Books like the Unapproachable East seem to have way more success, as we see. I'm very upset about this. :( I would be very glad to see some products like the two mentioned before. Maybe there is a possibility to change this? Post Scriptum: Sorry for my English, if it isn't good all the time. *lol* Next year I'm probably going to move to the USA. I have to improve it....
Faraer 10-13-03, 07:41 PM	Has Unapproachable East sold better than Silver Marches? I don't think we have any such information. Basically, the money people at WotC have decided that rules-heavy books sell better. I suspect the main factor is rather whether they're targeted at DMs or players; but certainly part of the endless feats etc. strategy is to sell books to non-Realms-using people as well. In any case, I don't see how it can be construed as good for the Forgotten Realms. 64 pages is still a normal-size D&D sourcebook to me, and 128 pages is big. Additional writing, development, layout, and printing costs are traditionally passed on to the customer at a multiple. I'd certainly love 400-page books of Ed's lore, but not 400 pages written to spec to fill 400 pages.
Dargoth 10-13-03, 07:57 PM	Originally posted by Faraer Has Unapproachable East sold better than Silver Marches? I don't think we have any such information. Basically, the money people at WotC have decided that rules-heavy books sell better. I suspect the main factor is rather whether they're targeted at DMs or players; but certainly part of the endless feats etc. strategy is to sell books to non-Realms-using people as well. In any case, I don't see how it can be construed as good for the Forgotten Realms. 64 pages is still a normal-size D&D sourcebook to me, and 128 pages is big. Additional writing, development, layout, and printing costs are traditionally passed on to the customer at a multiple. I'd certainly love 400-page books of Ed's lore, but not 400 pages written to spec to fill 400 pages. Judging by comments RB made I dont think it did as well infact several things that where in Silver Marches but where cut from UE are going to be put back in the next regional source book ie Mini Adventures
Shemeska the Marauder 10-14-03, 03:22 AM	Originally posted by Kain's avatar Yes, nothing has that personal touch like hired goons... ;) :D *fawns over your sense of style* :love: Oh don't I know it, though there are times I simply have to do things myself. But a cadre of goons and toadies is a must for the proper Yugoloth these days. *preens* Oh well, off to evict small children and single parents from their homes in Sigil which happen to sit on land I own. Then maybe hurling a few berks into razorvine, and then holding audience for the rest of the evening and having all manner of parties at why whim, back and call. *amused with fiendish self* *drops back OOC* Longer sourcebooks would be great, and the more fluff text the better. I can always make up stat blocks to fit a game if I know a given NPC's levels, but the more plot fodder, descriptions, and setting details the better. :)
Gadodel 10-14-03, 03:24 AM	A larger book would be worth it. Though, let's wait until a new edition is needed...say in five years or so. Hell, by then; they could put out an interactive DVD or something.
Dargoth 10-14-03, 03:34 AM	Originally posted by Gadodel A larger book would be worth it. Though, let's wait until a new edition is needed...say in five years or so. Hell, by then; they could put out an interactive DVD or something. You'll notice that I wasnt advocating rereleasing the FRC, I want longer regional Sups
Broken Mind 10-14-03, 06:56 AM	Me either. :( But as I posted before, WotC seems to think that books like UE sell better.
ENHenry 10-14-03, 12:24 PM	There's a reason they think this: Their sales figures lead them to believe it, and I can understand why this is. Game mechanics are more usable by a greater number of gamers than story information. A prestige class with the names filed off are still mechanically sound; however, a story needs to be worked and molded somewhat to fit into another campaign world. Sure, I could rename Cormyr references to that of my homebrew local kingdom, and rename Westgate to another city in my game, but the events portrayed and the "cultural character" of the story to be told will likely not be the same. If the story won't work, there's not much point in even purchasing the product. Note that a lot of realms-specific info is even used by those running Realms campaigns! Taking both of these problems into account, the fan base that could use more Realms-specific story info is only HALF (or less) that of those who use its game mechanical info. It's sad but no less a truth of life: That which makes a profit, will benefit from the focused effort.
Kain's avatar 10-14-03, 11:24 PM	I would certainly pay an equal percentage more for the extra pages. i.e., if the average books had 20% more pages I would rather pay 20% more for them, rather than not have them at all.
Kuje31 10-15-03, 12:04 AM	I'd only pay more if they contain more fluff instead of more of the same old same, like spells, races, magic items, prestige or other classes, etc..... I miss the old books where it was more fluff then crunch. And yes I realize this will probably never happen but one can hope and dream.
Ranger REG 10-15-03, 02:25 AM	Originally posted by RobTzu agreed. I wouldn't mind an extra 20 pages of maps in the FRCS, not to mention Npc stats, and just extra fluff. The 3.0 ed FRCS was 39.95 I would pay 49.95 for it if they added the above. Hmm. Two years ago, I doubt anyone would go for a FR campaign sourcebook with a $50 price tag. So while a few of the FR fans may pick it up, many would rather not. AEG can get away with it because it is a licensed product that is not only recognized by gamers but also by fans of the actual show.
amateurhuman 10-15-03, 02:40 AM	Just a bit of clarification on the manufacturing cost of the books from someone who has a BA in Graphic Communications/Print Management and has worked in the industry for 5 years. The printing and production cost of a hardback technical book (for the sake of argument we'll call RPG books technical books) is usually 40% of the cost and can be as high as 50%. So the FRCS at $39.95 costs $15.98 (40%) just to physically print and bind. Thought this might be helpful when understanding the cost of books. --amateurhuman
Dargoth 10-19-03, 04:30 AM	I just discovered this The Draconomican which comes out later this year will have 288 pages and at Amazon will cost $28 USD Underdark has 192 pages and costs $23 USD So for 5 American dollars you can get almost 100 extra pages I dont know about you guys but Im more than willing to hand over an extra 5 Bucks to see an FR sup with 50% more detail!
Broken Mind 10-19-03, 09:18 AM	Me either! For example Unapproachable East: 200 pages more, 10 bucks more? YES! I would spend this with pleasure! So, WotC, come on and make bigger sourcebooks for us! We already spend a lot of money for DnD so it wouldn't make anything to spend a little bit more. Also, I started with DnD 3rd Edition. This may be because of my age. And I heard a lot about those big sourcebooks of ADnD, containing a lot of fluff and I want to have those informations too. But I cannot purchase these books anymore. I hope you see my point.
Deitus 10-19-03, 11:17 AM	Hey there, Just a note about the Price of the Stargate book, here in Canada, The book was close to the $80 dollar mark. That's a bit expensive. My buddy bought it, it looks good, not at all cheap looking like most D20 products, but 80 bucks? I'm a big FR fan, but a little lite in the pocket book at the moment, I like what I saw in all the FR source books thus far, and Sure I would Love to see the books as big and fat and overflowing as possible, but if they get too big, then I'll have to take a pass and that sucks. It sucks for me, but I'm not the only one in that type of position/ mindset. If there are a lot of people out there like myself, then it's going to suck for that product, and following products. It might not make much of an impact on the series as a whole but it will definilty keep the publisher from going big. Anyway that's my thoughts Deitus
jasamcarl 10-19-03, 04:27 PM	Originally posted by Dargoth I just discovered this The Draconomican which comes out later this year will have 288 pages and at Amazon will cost $28 USD Underdark has 192 pages and costs $23 USD So for 5 American dollars you can get almost 100 extra pages I dont know about you guys but Im more than willing to hand over an extra 5 Bucks to see an FR sup with 50% more detail! I hate to tell you this, but all that says is that the Draconomican has had a higher print run and thus lower marginal cost. I might be wrong, but given rumors that core books sell more than those in the FR line, i doubt it. You have to consider economies of scale, because I think the assumptions that went into this thread are pretty simplistic. FR buyers are regarded as a smaller, but more devout market. Higher price/per page is a result.
Ranger REG 10-20-03, 12:05 AM	Originally posted by Deitus Hey there, Just a note about the Price of the Stargate book, here in Canada, The book was close to the $80 dollar mark. That's a bit expensive. My buddy bought it, it looks good, not at all cheap looking like most D20 products, but 80 bucks? I feel your pain, my Canadian friend, including those who have poor American dollar exchange ratio, except the UK. I honestly wish you were paying the same price in Canadian dollar as we have in US Dollar, like the Stargate book at $50, and we're not talking about a limited deluxe collector's edition (so far, nothing have been announced and I would not care). 40% of the expenses to make such a book? And 60% is divided among the many authors, editors, layout designers, artists, etc.? That's not much. Note to self: Steer children away from game publishing.
ArthurQ 10-20-03, 03:40 AM	at the page count for stargate you listed is close to 500 pages. the book cost 50 american dollars. that comes out to 10$ per 100 pages. I would 100% rather pay for 10$/100pages of an FR book then Stargate. I'm sure other realmsians would be willing as well.
Ranger REG 10-21-03, 03:09 AM	It's one thing to cater to the existing FR fanbase. It's another when you wish to offer said campaign setting to newbie gamers as well. At $50, newbie gamers must be a fan before he's willing to get into FR. With the popularity of Stargate TV show, that newbie gamer is already a fan and may be willing to drop $50. While I'm great that we have hardcore FR fans, you still have to keep in mind that you're also making products to attract newbie gamers as well. A $50 price tag is not attractive to newbie gamers.
ArthurQ 10-21-03, 03:10 AM	wasnt the FRCS 40? i dont remember anymore.
RobTzu 10-21-03, 04:43 AM	quote: wasnt the FRCS 40? i dont remember anymore. It was 39.95 as was stated earlier in this thread. :mad:
Tankhangen 10-21-03, 01:49 PM	Just to throw out my two cents on this cost of books issue; let say we agree that the book only cost them $5 for the paper, and ink like someone posted above. Well ok how about the building that book is made in? Or the taxes on said property? Or shipping the book out? I think all consumers should REALLY think before they start *****ing about price, and mark up. The bottom line for me as a gamer is if they get more money, they keep putting cool stuff out. Last but not least, proffit is not a dirty word, are people really sitting around going "Gee I hope one day to write an RPG and get paid nothing that would be great!"
Herr Doktor 10-21-03, 02:14 PM	I think it is pretty unfair that they charge more for Forgotten Realms products than for core rulebooks and other published materials of the same size or larger. The Forgotten Realms has "hardcore" fans that are willing to pay whatever for their realms fix, right? Wizards is out to make money, so they're going to exploit this. This is what I find really disturbing... These same "hardcore" fans are probably the only people who are also in love with realms "fluff". Now Wizards is cutting back on the fluff to make the realms material more other world friendly... Does that not justify a drop in price since they're now catering to everyone, not just the die-hard fan base? In fact... They're catering to everyone else BEFORE the die-hard fans. So we (the "hardcore" die-hard, willing to endure a worse standard of living just to be able to afford the next realm supplement) have to pay more for material we're less interested in if we want to stay up to date and have realms lore to add to our shelves. Wizards of the Coast is mean. MEAN! Despite that... I'll buy realms products no matter the price. Though I would be very much interested in more material for the same price, that would be most welcome.
Ranger REG 10-22-03, 01:24 AM	Originally posted by RobTzu quote: wasnt the FRCS 40? i dont remember anymore. It was 39.95 as was stated earlier in this thread. :mad: Really? WOW! I save 5 cents!!! FIVE CENTS!!! I'm filthy rich! Now I can buy my own cruise liner! :bored: :nonono: As for exploiting, they always have the other option: NOT to make any more Forgotten Realms. :smirk:
ArthurQ 10-22-03, 01:26 AM	Originally posted by Ranger REG Really? WOW! I save 5 cents!!! FIVE CENTS!!! I'm filthy rich! Now I can buy my own cruise liner! :bored: :nonono: As for exploiting, they always have the other option: NOT to make any more Forgotten Realms. :smirk: Ok so taking that knowledge. the FRCS was not anywhere near 400 pages. a 500 Page book, for 10$ more, would not scare people away, i dont think it would.
CaffeineGenasi 10-23-03, 06:34 AM	Disclaimer** Some of what I am going to say is reasoned out using the facts presented on this thread. If those facts are incorrect, blame the other posters here, not me.;) So, you say UE is rules heavy, hmm? Because they are trying to appeal to a wider base than FR junkies..? Well, I can think of one thing to say... WHAT IDIOTS!!:mad: That doesn't even make any sense. How would they find it? It would be better to sell it as general material. Let's say I am browsing the game staore...doo dee doo, here I am with $60 burning a hole in my pocket...but I don't play FR (this is really a stretch for me, both that I would have $60 and not want FR, but anyway...) the LAST place I am going to look for new rules, feats, prestige classes, etc (other than the White-Wolf section) is INSIDE a book set in a setting I DON"T USE!!! And don't tell me that it will say on the back that there are bookoos of feats inside, you and I both know that I am not going to pick that book up to read the back if I think (and in marketting, what I think actually matters) that I don't want that book. So, if they are wanting to sell books to people who only play Greyhawk, or Birthright, or Ravenloft, or whatever else, they shouldn't have it in a beige cover to begin with. Hmm, I seem to have totally wandered off topic...well, yes, bigger books please. Maps and fluff preferably, not mini adventures.
Ranger REG 10-24-03, 03:36 AM	Originally posted by ArthurQ Ok so taking that knowledge. the FRCS was not anywhere near 400 pages. a 500 Page book, for 10$ more, would not scare people away, i dont think it would. While it won't scare people away, most of them won't reach for their wallet or purse to drop $50, even if it does offer more pages than a California State Yellow Pages. Even regular fans of FR are going to shy away from such a steep price for an RPG product, and it's not even one of those pricey "Collector's Edition" (which to this day, I could never understand why would a hardcore RPG fan would want to buy a steeply-priced deluxe-labeled product ... $20-$40 more than the regular edition's price just so you can have a cloth bookmark atttached and/or slipcase). Heck, during the summer, almost everyone complained the price of 3.5e books and "why aren't you offering a $20 promotion price?" Let's face it, we're cheapskate, and Wizards know it, so they're not going to pitch a $50 RPG product right away, not unless they have a very valuable brand licensing, and I'm not talking about Star Wars.