| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Tahl-Ali02-17-04, 12:59 AM | This question just occurred to me; and since I don't think I know enough about the Realms I thought i'd bring it up here. What is the single biggest mistake that the designers have made in the Realms? Personally I'd say killing Leira, or letting Cyric take most of Mask's power. i'm not a big Cyric fan... But what do you all think? |
| Kuje3102-17-04, 01:12 AM | Originally posted by Tahl-Ali This question just occurred to me; and since I don't think I know enough about the Realms I thought i'd bring it up here. What is the single biggest mistake that the designers have made in the Realms? Personally I'd say killing Leira, or letting Cyric take most of Mask's power. i'm not a big Cyric fan... But what do you all think? HAHAHA. :) The biggest mistake in my opinion is doing away with the Wheel/Ring. But that shouldn't really surprise many of the posters here. :) Hmmm and maybe changing the continent just because there was "to much open space." |
| SirUrza02-17-04, 01:51 AM | How about no more campaigns. Well wait there's a legit reason I guess but in the end it comes down to Wizards not being about to market them correctly to fit in with the other gaming products they had released at the time (who cares that the website said it was the Year of the Drow, obviously not the 1 out of 5 players (the 1 being a DM) MAYBE buying the book. *snickers*) :) Though I have a feeling the post is more about Realmslore so... I'll agree with the map redesign. |
| druid berrymore02-17-04, 02:29 AM | Killing Azoun IV. Comryr was the only safe place in the realms. It added a nice dynamic to Fearun being that way. Now it's just like everywhere else. Originally posted by Tahl-Ali What is the single biggest mistake that the designers have made in the Realms? \ |
| paradoxmage02-17-04, 02:33 AM | Mine would have to be the shrinking of the realms, they removed way to much open land and other things. I liked that it was bigger, more space between towns and villages. This makes an impact on caravan traveling, and amount a party can make escorting one. When living in a village you were usually far from other towns/villages and had to depend on themselves/wandering adventures to help them more. Shrinking the land mass makes for less adventureing time between resupply. And many many more reasons, this was by far the worst idea IMO. Second would have to be spellfire thats it:angel: |
| J. Grenemyer02-17-04, 03:18 AM | Hello, Originally posted by Tahl-Ali What is the single biggest mistake that the designers have made in the Realms? For me it would be the entire Time Of Troubles scenario, and all of its after-effects (Death of Mystra and Bane, the rise of other gods and the re-hashing of domains/portfolios) etc... Other that that, I'm quite happy with the Realms. :D |
| Mirtek02-17-04, 03:39 AM | 1. The new cosmology 2. The PGtF going to allow epic spells on Faerun (even Nethersee spells revived) 3. The return of Bane 4. The Drow suddenly being everywhere |
| Kezghan02-17-04, 04:16 AM | I was irked by the Great Wheel getting yanked out from under us, but I will wait to see what they serve in the PGtF. Shar ending up with the Karse Stone kinda sucked. Other then that i have few or no quibbles. |
| Ardent02-17-04, 04:33 AM | Originally posted by J. Grenemyer Other that that, I'm quite happy with the Realms. I'll believe that when Orcus replaces Ao as overgod. Personally, I dislike the loss of the Great Wheel cosmology *and* the shrinking of the Realms. They both severely limit a DM's options (and that's really what it's all about). |
| Cunning Linguist02-17-04, 06:40 AM | 1. The new cosmology 2. The PGtF going to allow epic spells on Faerun (even Nethersee spells revived) 3. The return of Bane 4. The Drow suddenly being everywhere Strange.. these are all the tings I love about 3.ed I hated it back in 2.ed when Cyric took over for Bane, and the fact that really powerful spells where banned. I also disliked the fact that Toril was "just another planet". Drow being everywhere is not a good thing in itself, but they kill other elves, and that is good. However, what I don't like about FR is: 1) The whole Mystra deal.. NG gods should not control magic. 2) The fact that good always had the upper hand. (this has been fixed in 3.ed to some extent) 3) Elminister 4) All the chosen of Mystra |
| AJA02-17-04, 12:29 PM | I would say that the biggest mistake WotC is making with the Realms is draining much of what makes it unique and a world unto itself in order to appeal to the widest possible audience (read: people who don't play in the Realms but like to buy endless books of PrCs and vanilla rules "crunch"). That, and letting slade write the Netheril box set. :nonono: Aside from that, while I do certainly have personal design bugbears (especially the needless gutting of Iyachtu Xvim, the endless proliferation of Chosen, and the return of Shade) I think this thread has already demonstrated that one man's "mistake" is anothers' good idea. Remember, YMMV.... |
| Amoun02-17-04, 01:02 PM | I dont really mind too much what WotC has done to FR... granted I find it very irritating that they changed the cosmology and other stuff... but since my group has been playing in the FR for a while...and since we enjoy an epic campaign every so often... Our FR and the official one are so vastly different that the DM always has to decide what to use and not use.... but I guess if I had to say biggest mistake... Change in Cosmology, TOO MANY BLASTED PRESTIGE CLASSES MAKE THEM GO AWAY!!!!!, and umm... not publishing only stuff I like :D ... in all fairness though WotC has been doing a "decent" job with FR publications... although they re-use WAY too much material... Guide to the Underdark... YOU GUYS COULD HAVE DRAWN NEW BLOODY MAPS FOR CITIES!!! They used the same exact maps as Drittz's guide to the Underdark... come on guys, its ok to recycle... but at least MAKE it look new. I mean in some parts I found exact paragraphs from other books.. thats just irritating... I take it back... them recycling badly is their biggest mistake... recycle but make it look new and pretty :) (Like the New FR map, its pretty :d) Sorry everyone started a rant mid way... |
| kgiggles02-17-04, 01:40 PM | Originally posted by Kuje31 HAHAHA. :) The biggest mistake in my opinion is doing away with the Wheel/Ring. But that shouldn't really surprise many of the posters here. :) Hmmm and maybe changing the continent just because there was "to much open space." I was wondering if someone could tell me what changes where made to the Realms. I`ve noticed a couple but just am too lazy right now to compare the old maps to the new one. Thanks in advance.:) |
| Kuje3102-17-04, 02:09 PM | Originally posted by kgiggles I was wondering if someone could tell me what changes where made to the Realms. I`ve noticed a couple but just am too lazy right now to compare the old maps to the new one. Thanks in advance.:) Well it's mostly every thing got shifted to the west and north. Some cities switched from one side of the river to the other. The High Forest had a earthquake and moved to the west as parts or most of Cormyr. (These are the ones I noticed the most because I had cities around there, that old PC's built and now the areas they built them in don't match up.) Um the Shaar (if I recall right, its been three years since this was discussed) had a lot of that land cut out of it and it just disappeared with AO took the pruning sheers and cut that part of Chauntea out of the world. :) The same thing happened to Erlkazar and a few other places. |
| J. Grenemyer02-17-04, 02:16 PM | Hello, Originally posted by Ardent I'll believe that when Orcus replaces Ao as overgod. Nah, what would be the fun then? Orcus is no good as a bad guy if you make him too powerful for the players to defeat. But it is a good idea, in a sense… ;) Originally posted by Ardent Personally, I dislike the loss of the Great Wheel cosmology *and* the shrinking of the Realms. They both severely limit a DM's options (and that's really what it's all about). You know, I’ve never, ever found this to be the case. On the contrary, both map changes and cosmology changes have enhanced my game. But, as AJA so wisely says, YMMV. :D |
| kgiggles02-17-04, 02:25 PM | Thanks, I caught some of those that you had mentioned but now I am really going to go over the maps to see if I can locate any other things that I have missed. Who knows with enough time this may even be a fun challenge to undertake. Now what, do I use the old maps or the new map? I`m leaning towards the old one as of now. |
| Lady Claransa Trent02-17-04, 02:39 PM | Originally posted by Kuje31 The same thing happened to Erlkazar and a few other places. [/B] I was wondering about that - does Erlkazar no longer exist at all? It's kind of amusing that Sembia that was originally to be left undetailed, so the DM could do pretty much what he/she wanted with it. Then they detailed Sembia, and gave us Erkkazar with another promise to leave it undetailed. But now it seems to be not so much left undetailed as just completely removed. Was anything ever said by WOTC about this? Personally, along with the reshaping of the geography, I think the whole population changes that have taken place with no explanation is annoying. Impiltur went from about 100,000 inhabitants (according to the 2e Bloodstone Lands supplement) to over 1 million in a very short period of time. I actually, in most cases, prefer the new populations, but it's frustrating that they just revamp things without any explanation (at least none that I've found). I know I hate it when my DM explains things with "reality shifts", and it's even more frustrating when WOTC does it. |
| J. Grenemyer02-17-04, 03:24 PM | Hello and Well Met, Lady Claransa, Originally posted by Lady Claransa Trent ... I actually, in most cases, prefer the new populations, but it's frustrating that they just revamp things without any explanation (at least none that I've found). I know I hate it when my DM explains things with "reality shifts", and it's even more frustrating when WOTC does it. Then know this: There is a wealth of information on the reasoning behind such changes to be had online, whether on Sean K. Reynolds Message Boards, the Realms Roundtable Archives on WotC's Website or the Realms-L Mailing List archives. You will, I trust, forgive me for not providing the links right away, but rest assured many answers are to be had. Have a nice day! :D |
| Kezghan02-17-04, 03:28 PM | Im with Sanshi.. err J. Grenemyer on this one too Lady Claransa, much of the reasoning is pretty solid, Sean K Reynolds is the most intense about it though. Course Rich Baker has flat out mentioned that if they saw something they want different they will go right out and change it. Most of the changes are fine, my players really havent noticed a lick of difference, its the DM's that are the ones who are mostly :censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored::censored: off it would seem. |
| Lady Claransa Trent02-17-04, 03:52 PM | Like I said, in most cases, I do prefer the new populations. However, I do find it frustrating that they changed so much. My introduction to the realms was the old Bloodstone series of modules, which left our now-epic characters (who we rarely play, but still do from time to time) with domains in the Kingdom of Damara. The population change is beneficial to us, in that our domains now have many more people. What I find annoying is the apparent lack of explanation behind the changes. I know it was very frustrating for our DM, who has spent several years explaining that no matter how much money we spent advertising or recruiting it just wasn't realistic to have a province of 25,000 attract several hundred thousand new immigrants, then having to deal with us after WOTC gave us just that. That said, you guys have pointed out that there is rationale, and perhaps explanations (?). It would be great if any of you could post some of these links, although I probably can find Sean K. Reynold's site if I decide to be slightly less lazy. But any other info would be much appreciated. |
| Monsoon2802-17-04, 08:12 PM | Change's to the Great Wheel Cosmology, Maps and Population are more of an annoyance than a real mistake/Error. What I really hated was Kelemvor being made a God! I felt this way originally with Cyric, but at least they've toned him down some. Now if they would be so kind as to move some of that power Masks way I'd be happy. and as I'm sure I've stated before Bring back Myrkul! or at the least ascend someone who gives a damn about the job! Oh yes Kill Mystra, replace her with Azuth since a LN alignment makes sense! But Otherwise I liked the ToT :D Less focus on Drow would be nice, they are other races out there, thank you very much! (once again an annoyance Vs. Mistake) A moment of silence in memory of Azoun IV.... |
| Lashan02-17-04, 09:23 PM | I'm not sure which I would consider the biggest design flaw for the FR. I'm sure that many people would disagree with me on whatever I pick. Let me give it a try. I one hand, I could say that the World Shaking Events are the worst thing to hit the game world. While I know that a lot of people really like these events and like a game world that develops and breaths on its own, I dislike it. It can really date certain products that you get. Also, if you have a home game that is going on for years, you might not like all the changes. For one, the Time of Troubles fits into this. Personally, I hate this event. It is one of the biggest events that ruined a lot of the game. They killed off a lot of the best deities and brought in a bunch of gods that are, in my opinion, terrible (Cyric, Finder, new Mystra, Kelemorv, and Velsharoon). Perhaps if products still supported things if an event handled happened (even a little blurb), then I might not be too upset. Just look at the Faiths and Avatars series, which included all the valuable info on the dead gods. I know they are dead in the main game, but they might no be in my game. It really helps having info on them. And for those that say I need to quit whining about World Shaking Events, then they obviously haven't been playing in FR for a long time and developed their own material. The next thing about the FR is a mistake is something that everyone loves about the FR. It is the absolutely crazy power things that have appeared. What do I mean about this? I mean the "Chosen of", and Spellfire, and Silverfire. I find that these things may make a great story or novel, but unbalance the game. There was also a lot of magic that was added the FR. Now, in the original boxed set, I don't recall everything being so poweful. Most of the NPCs were under 10th lvl and no mention of bein "chosen". A few years later and suddenly, everyone is close to 20th lvl, an agent of a powerful god, a complete arsenal of magic items, and some extra uber-power that makes them over the top. Many people who complain about the FR say that it is a "munchkin" game. Now, I point to these things as what made the game a little power crazy. Sure, I don't have to run my personal FR game that way, but a good number of people out there have turned it into a power gamer's game. It has an overall influence on the products that come out. I'm positive that there are people out there that love the FR for all the things that I just menioned, but to me, they made the FR more of a circus then a regular game world. Oh, and just a side thing, I am sick of the iconic organizations. Why does every single evil mage have to be from either the Red Wizards, the Zhentarium, or the Cult of the Dragon? Why can't an evil mage just be a solo evil mage? Or how about a small time cabal that is a group that isn't detailed in any source book? Why does it seem that the handful of evil bad guy organizations are the only evil bad guy organizations in the whole world...? Don't people make up their own stuff anymore? |
| Yamo02-17-04, 09:45 PM | 1. Time of Troubles. 2. New cosmology. 3. Drow overexposure. 4. Increased emphasis on lame uberNPC heroes like Elmonster and the Seven Mary Sues over that 2nd Edition years that the setting is just now starting to recover from. |
| Lashan02-17-04, 11:59 PM | Oh, I agree on the over-exposure of the drow. Enough already! |
| Elereth_Berantor02-18-04, 12:15 AM | Perhaps it's just because I was introduced to FR primarily through 3rd edition and the novels, but I really have no complaints. I like how the cosmology is different from normal D&D. I like the gods as they are (that includes Mystra's NG alignment, etc). I like things the way they are right now. I really can't think of anything that I don't like. |
| dawgfan02-18-04, 12:43 AM | By the way, what where some of the major changes made to the great wheel cosmology. |
| Wooly Rupert02-18-04, 12:48 AM | Originally posted by dawgfan By the way, what where some of the major changes made to the great wheel cosmology. It doesn't exist anymore. It's been replaced with the Great Tree. So all of the planes that the Realms were previously connected to, it's not connected to anymore. It's also separate from the rest of the universe, so no longer will wizards from Greyhawk and Krynn be able to come to the Realms... |
| Herr Doktor02-18-04, 01:13 AM | Originally posted by Wooly Rupert It doesn't exist anymore. It's been replaced with the Great Tree. So all of the planes that the Realms were previously connected to, it's not connected to anymore. It's also separate from the rest of the universe, so no longer will wizards from Greyhawk and Krynn be able to come to the Realms... Unless they do so via Sigil. The gate to Sigil beneath the Abbey of the Sword leads to the same Sigil and Outlands that exist in the Great Wheel. |
| Kezghan02-18-04, 01:19 AM | Or take a hop thru the Plane of Shadow as it can or supposily connects to other cosmologies. The options are there, makes little sense to say the Realms are cut off. |
| Herr Doktor02-18-04, 01:22 AM | I'd say the biggest mistakes are the number of Realms Shaking Events that seem to be popping up year after year, the mess that was made in 2nd edition when real world cultural settings were thrown into the Realms for marketing purposes, and this shrinking world bit is a little troubling too. Outsiders don't want to set foot in the Realms these days because they see some high-powered crazy world where Elminster and the Chosen battle eternal evil deities and worse and the world gets blasted apart constantly. If the real world cultural settings had strayed further from what is "true" and fact in our world I may not have such a problem with them. I'm not a xenophobe, no, it's just as awkward to me as dropping a panzer tank into the middle of Western Heartlands and saying it has always been that way. Shrinking the map was an AWFUL decision, shame on whoever thought it to be a good idea! |
| Shemeska the Marauder02-18-04, 02:05 AM | While I appreciate the inclusion of Sigil being connected to FR, and thus through it the Great Wheel presumably, I don't buy the reasons for the cosmology shift in 3e, or the problems it brings up. I'd have less issues with it, if it wasn't selectively keeping some of the planes from the Great Wheel, aka Baator. I'm supposed to accept that it's Baator, but it's not. Oh there's all the same Lords of the 9 there, but they're not the same ones that exist in that Baator in the Great Wheel. Oh they have the same names, details, stats etc. But they're not the same, really. Oh, and all of those references to other planes, other worlds, NPCs from those planes and worlds etc... they never happened. Don't question the freight train wreck of continuity, they just never happened... The new cosmology wrecks havoc on the fiends and makes the Blood War almost impossible to justify as existing in the unique FR planes. So 3e has just up and obliterated the eternal rock that the fiends are tethered to. It makes little sense. If they had utterly divorced FR from the Great Wheel I'd have fewer problems honestly, but they're trying to have their cake and eat it too. I just can't wrap my head around it, nor can my players or those DMs I know running FR. Sampling error aside, that's not a good track record for folks and the 3e FR cosmology. I can see it switching back within 10 years honestly. My opinion may be changed by details, or lack thereof, in the PGtF coming out soon. We'll see what details they supply, or don't supply. Till then my FR is still connected to the Great Wheel. |
| Kain's avatar02-18-04, 02:44 AM | Originally posted by Cunning Linguist Drow being everywhere is not a good thing in itself, but they kill other elves, and that is good. LOL! :bounce: That's sig-worthy! VVVV |
| rob402-18-04, 12:23 PM | I hate to follow the crowd, but I have to agree that my least favorite thing is the condensed map. It just doesn't feel natural to me that you're trucking along in medevial europe then all of a sudden you're in the near east or egypt or something. Also, as a recent convert to Realms fandom, I don't like the vague hints at real world nationalities of certain people/areas. Some are obvious, Mulhorand=Egypt, but some I'm sure I'm not picking up on. I know I can make these things however I want, but I hate to play things my way only to pick up a novel or something later on and have it totally contradict my game. |
| azildurn02-18-04, 12:42 PM | Not letting Ed control everything after they bought it. :) |
| Reefy02-18-04, 03:34 PM | I actually rather like the new map. I'm not sure where I stand on the Great Wheel issue, I don't think I have any real objections to the new cosmology, it's more that the old one has existed for a very long time and was pretty firmly ingrained. I also don't mind the Realms shaking events, as long as they are used sparingly, one every few years in game time is fine, but one a year seems like too much to me. I also agree that there are too many super powerful characters. I have no real complaints about anyone in particular, just that there seem to be an awful lot of them who are not just over level 20, but many over 25 and 30 as well. |
| Wooly Rupert02-18-04, 10:44 PM | Not explaining changes. When 2nd edition was introduced, they made a huge event to make all the changes to the Realms -- the Time of Troubles. Like it or loathe it, it nicely explained away the changes that happened. And yet, the changes weren't really all that major... 3E has a lot of major changes -- like sorcerers, the fact that humans can now multi-class, the removal of race/class/level restrictions... And yet, none of this is explained. The only explanation I've seen was for sorcerers, and it was something along the lines of "oh, they've always been around, but no one knew about them." I'm not saying I want another Realms-shaking event to explain away all these changes. But I do think that not giving us an in-game explanation was a mistake. |
| J. Grenemyer02-19-04, 12:50 AM | Hello Wooly, Originally posted by Wooly Rupert But I do think that not giving us an in-game explanation was a mistake. They didn't give an in-game explanation because they new that doing another ToT style shake up would be a mistake. However, they did give an out of game explanation; several, in fact. Have a look at the Forgotten Realms Archive (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/main.asp?x=fr/archive2,3) entries dated prior to the release of the FRCS for starters. And when you're done there, hop on over to the REALMS-L mailing list archives (http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?S1=realms-l) and have a look at the messages around the same time frame. It's all there, if you care to look. Oh, and I will give you one more clue: Magic Television. :D |
| Wooly Rupert02-19-04, 01:06 AM | Originally posted by J. Grenemyer Hello Wooly, They didn't give an in-game explanation because they new that doing another ToT style shake up would be a mistake. However, they did give an out of game explanation; several, in fact. But the changes they made far exceed the changes caused by the ToT... Losing a couple of classes and others being rewritten is one thing; new methods of casting spells, and the removal of race/class/level restrictions is quite another. No offense, but out-of-game explanations are of no interest to me. I want in-game explanations. I want to know why elves, who previously could not be paladins, suddenly can be. I want to know why humans can suddenly multi-class. I want to know why dwarves, a race so un-magical that they had problems using magical devices, now have wizards and sorcerers. The ToT was created to explain the changes from 1st to 2nd edition. And yet, what were those changes? Becoming a bard was different. Barbarians and assassins were no longer classes. Some spells changed, and cantrips went from an okay idea to a lousy one. We had a huge event to explain this. We have had nothing in game to explain the far more serious changes of 3E. When I first read about the return of Shade, I thought surely they would use that as the mechanism to make these changes. And yet, the changes were not explained.... I think we deserve an in-game explanation. It doesn't have to be Realms-shaking, but there should be something... |
| J. Grenemyer02-19-04, 02:18 AM | Hello Wooly, Originally posted by Wooly Rupert No offense, but out-of-game explanations are of no interest to me. I want in-game explanations. No offense taken. However it seems I am forced to reveal to you what I had hoped you would find on your own. Very well then: The idea of invoking another ToT-level event was seen by WotC as unwise in the extreme, as it would necessitate a worldwide level event (or series of events) that would most likely leave as many (if not more) fans as upset about the World Changes as were angry after the ToT. For make no mistake: Such events effect not just the rules, but the entirety of the “fluff” of a game setting as well. You cannot change one without effecting the other. Thus the question: “Why repeat the mistake of reshaping the face of the Realms a second time when the first was seen by many to be a heavy handed change and a bit of a fiasco?” for which the answer was, “Don’t do it again; there’s another option.” What option am I talking about? Well, I’m talking about a method of revision that became WotC’s approach to integrating the Realms into Third Edition and also for writing the FRCS: The Magic Television. The Magic Television is a metaphor for the latest edition of the rules, which allows us to "see" the Realms in a new and more precise fashion. As Jim Butler (current[?] Forgotten Realms Brand Manager) put it in a Realms Roundtable article, “I view the D&D game rules as the lens through which we view the Forgotten Realms. As that lens has became more accurate, we’ve got a clearer picture of who various people are and what they’re truly capable of.” Couple the Magic TV with revised, updated or otherwise left-as-is fluff in the FRCS and subsequent Realms sourcebooks, and you have what is assumed to be the most accurate depiction of the Realms available. This was the designer's approach. This is what you are assumed to understand when reading new Realms material. Note that what ultimately “is” or “is not” in the Realms still depends entirely on DM caveat, of course, which allows DMs to continue using their 2E and earlier material at their leisure. (This is also why arguments against changing the map and cosmology are fundamentally baseless. But I digress.) Ultimately, WotC learned from TSR’s mistake and chose not to repeat it. Originally posted by Wooly Rupert I want to know why elves, who previously could not be paladins, suddenly can be. I want to know why humans can suddenly multi-class. I want to know why dwarves, a race so un-magical that they had problems using magical devices, now have wizards and sorcerers. Quite simply, it always was that way. It is only because previous editions of the rules did not (or could not) reflect the facts you list that such things were unknown until now. Originally posted by Wooly Rupert We have had nothing in game to explain the far more serious changes of 3E. But we don’t need one. If a DM wants to “upgrade” his campaign from 2E to 3E, the simplest solution is to assume the status quo for Third Edition was always the prior status quo as well. If a DM wants to start anew with the Third Edition Realms, then things are as they are and there is no trouble to be had. If a DM wants a little of both, he can pick and choose what he wants to keep or discard at his leisure, and inform his players accordingly. Now then, if you prefer to reply, please do so on a new thread (on which I will be happy to talk with you until each of our twenty fingers fall off :) ), and let us kinldy return this thread to its original topic. After all, Tahl-Ali asked for what we all think is the single biggest mistake w/r/t the Realms, not a conversation betwixt you and I about the merits and flaws of in-game vs. out of game explanations. ;) :D [Edit: Shortened post.] |
| theEaterOfShades02-29-04, 11:36 PM | 1. Loss of the Great wheel and the loss of WOTC controlled Ravenloft to have characters cross into. 2. Killing Myrkul/Putting him into the crown of Horns 3. Forcing Ed to make El so powerful I'll add more later |
| Khalon03-01-04, 09:50 AM | I just loved Leira... BIG mistake by WotC. :( |
| The Simbul03-02-04, 04:53 AM | The three biggest mistakes: 1) Converting the Forgotten Realms to 3rd edition. 2) Handicapping every :censored: NPC with poor multiclassing, presumeably to show off 3rd editions "superior" multi-classing system. 3) Releasing the stats and class/level blocks of Epic NPC's prior to the release of complete and full Epic Level Rules (Sorry the Sidebar system is a joke compared to the ELH, and the ELH NPC appendix is riddled with errors, omissions, and egregiously flawed character design). |
| Morka03-02-04, 08:44 AM | Another big mistake is to use the same non-human or humanoïd gods than in other settings (Greyhawks), and then having one of those gods dying in a setting and not in other settings. The most annoying example is the Time of Troubles. I often saw in those boards questions like "Where was Corellon/Moradin/Lolth/Grumbar during the Time of Troubles"? It could be just a grief against ToT, but there are many other little examples about it. Is Lolth silenced in Greyhawk? |
| UberJoker03-02-04, 04:57 PM | What is this great tree thing? How does it work? |
| UberJoker03-02-04, 05:01 PM | The biggest mistake I think WotC made was not doing something. Psions...where are they? Other then the psionic handbook I havn't seen anything on them. Please tell me of any psions or anything with them. |
| The Formless One03-02-04, 06:01 PM | I was introduced to Forgotten Realms in third edition, so like one or two before, the changes between the two editions were basically moot. That being said, my main issues with the setting as a whole are as following: 1) Too many Drow. Seems like practically every place I read about in the book had some Drow sticking their nose in everyone's business. Drow here, there, and there amongst twenty different places doesn't bug me but the overall feeling is there are simply too many of them. 2) The map IS too contensed. I've played other fantasy games with vibrant settings (albiet none of the D&D settings), and compared to my old game it just feels squished. I like having some space to flex my GM muscle. I'll take a look at the older maps to see if those suit me better, good thing I read this forum. :D 3) Overly high leveled characters. The book is littered with them. Set a bad standard of "How to play FR" in my head. I'm coming down off of it though. I like power gaming (go 20 core stat! :D), but starting the book with a level 30-something character is just a weeee bit too much for me. 4) Lastly, too much of the game feels like everything has been done. I realize this is continued from first, to second, to third edition, but it really erked my the wrong way. It felt like half of the book was going, "Guess what! You just came in second! Here's your prize!" Hellgate Keep? Please. I don't want to be in a game of low-level adventurers making sure everything is okay with a Harper Scout, I want to be the one leading the charge against Hellgate Keep! I want to feel the Balor's breath melt away under my fingers! "For Scotland!" Ahem. :angel: Yay, first FR post. Go me. :) |
| Kezghan03-02-04, 06:59 PM | Formless One, definatly dig up an old map, way more space. I use the 3e map for my players. The 1e/2e for the actual locals. A Nanaimo realms fan.. cool. heh Twould have been so nice if they didnt change the map, but aye well. Mostly i myself am happy with the 3e+ realms. |
| Wooly Rupert03-02-04, 07:52 PM | Originally posted by UberJoker The biggest mistake I think WotC made was not doing something. Psions...where are they? Other then the psionic handbook I havn't seen anything on them. Please tell me of any psions or anything with them. In every edition of D&D, psionics has been something that was ignored, tacked on later, and then ignored again. Well, maybe they were always in 1E, but from what I can tell, they never did anything with them. |
| Link18203-02-04, 08:06 PM | I don't know, they could have skipped adding Velsharoon. Moved undead to Cyric, gave Mask back intrigue and either bring Liera back or give Illusion to Mask as well. Probably could have done without Finder as well. If they're going to do so much with the drow, they should have some more info on the other races that live among them, just as other races live among elves on the surface. The underdark book had alot of interesting info and I'd like to see how some of these races and the way they live appear in some of the novels. |
| Cunning Linguist03-02-04, 08:10 PM | Originally posted by UberJoker The biggest mistake I think WotC made was not doing something. Psions...where are they? Other then the psionic handbook I havn't seen anything on them. Please tell me of any psions or anything with them. There came some signs for psions now with Underdark. They have blue goblins for one, and talked about how Blue goblins should use the stats given in the new Psion handbook. Also, Players Guide to Faerun will have a part of a chapter talking about how they fit into the realms. (looks like 3.5 is a good thing for cross-over books) |
| Frostbite_Ravenheart03-07-04, 03:09 PM | I gotta say the drow being everywhere. The drow have there hands on everything now. I liked them before were it was...HOLY @#$(@*#$%(@#*&$(@*#^&$%( THERE ARE DROW HERE! Now its like...Tears in eyes as he looks down at a drow-crossbolt in a dead guys skull (heh you know in the real one with the indian and the trash and the tears in his eyes...that was really an italian guy :P) I liked drow I guess before drizzt. Drizzt is cool I am not one of those anti-drizzt but ever since then people have been in love with drow. Now instead of being these feared beings who manipulate all the races of evil when four come to the surface...its like drow themselves actually like DO things. The drows are in old myth drannor...the high forest...all along the south. Another mistake was with gunpowder. In any, any fantsey setting where you introduce gunpowder theres always probable cause for more inventions. I would hate the realms to become total tec. Or tec and magic...even worse... -Frosty |
| Sarta03-07-04, 05:15 PM | I think the change to the experience table from 2e to 3.X was the biggest mistake. It vastly diminishes the reward of achieving what are now concieved as mid-levels (9 - 12). It just seems to me that marketing research seems to be telling WotC that power-gaming sells books and if so, that's kind of sad. The worst part is the effect this will have on future products. As more and more playes have characters become epic the demand for epic products will undoubtedly lead to more and more rediculously powerful content. Sarta |
| Hygric03-07-04, 05:39 PM | Drow being everywhere is one of my gripes. They are worse than cockroaches... Although my favourite gripe is the "Archmage in Every Village" syndrome. |
| Wooly Rupert03-07-04, 07:17 PM | Originally posted by Frostbite_Ravenheart Another mistake was with gunpowder. In any, any fantsey setting where you introduce gunpowder theres always probable cause for more inventions. I would hate the realms to become total tec. Or tec and magic...even worse... Smoke powder (the semi-magic equivalent of gunpowder) has been in the Realms since it was flipped to 2nd edition. It's just never really caught on. |
| Reefy03-08-04, 06:26 AM | Originally posted by Sarta I think the change to the experience table from 2e to 3.X was the biggest mistake. It vastly diminishes the reward of achieving what are now concieved as mid-levels (9 - 12). It just seems to me that marketing research seems to be telling WotC that power-gaming sells books and if so, that's kind of sad. The worst part is the effect this will have on future products. As more and more playes have characters become epic the demand for epic products will undoubtedly lead to more and more rediculously powerful content. Sarta It's not strictly FR, but I do agree with you on that one. My PCs have been levelling up far quicker than I'd have liked. I proposed we slow down the advancement by halving the experience from each encounter and they agreed. It feels like levelling up is more of an achievement when it's not happening every adventure. |
| Crust03-08-04, 09:00 AM | :) The single biggest FR mistake was making Mystra's chosen weapon the shuriken. |
| Ardent03-08-04, 11:26 AM | Originally posted by Reefy It's not strictly FR, but I do agree with you on that one. My PCs have been levelling up far quicker than I'd have liked. I proposed we slow down the advancement by halving the experience from each encounter and they agreed. It feels like levelling up is more of an achievement when it's not happening every adventure. Which is exactly what was suggested if you didn't like the idea of players levelling up every 13.33 encounters. The change from 2e to 3e experience was good because 2e was...calculator material at best. The changed experience progress chart is easily adjusted without the use of a calculator. If you want 10-14 to be "Whoa" in your campaign, just factor the logarithm. ;) The other option is to move away from having 13.33 encounters every adventure and having instead 7 or so. This is one of the easier changes to arbitrate as a DM. |