Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ramius_Mordale 03-09-04, 08:20 PM	Well got some problems people that maybe you'll be able to help me on. I got a PC (whom he will remain nameless) that wants his character to become a general in the Cormyrian Purple Knights. Only thing is he isn't a native born and me along with my fellow DM/PC that has GMed for this character believe otherwise because he is a foreigner who has just attained citzenship. Now my fellow DM/PC and I agree that since we have another PC (different one) that is a Cormyrian from birth and a War Wizard that this other PC that isn't shouldn't be able to rise in the Cormyrian Army to the rank of general. Reason: Cause he was not a Cormyrian from birth. Now this PC is throwing a temper and trying to pit my DMing ruling against my fellow DM/PC of this campaign to rise himself to that status. Now I have argued with him about he could be a general of a mercenary company make his own province in the North or in the Western Heartlands even in the Shaar. But he just threw up his hands and said he will just retire his character. Thing is this: I wanted his PC to actually assest two of my other PCs stuck in a fortress that they snuck into. Like a distraction but he doesn't want anything to do with it unless he is risen to the rank of General. Oh I should note that he said he would GM two characters of mine I still want to play, catch being I have to give him the rank of General. The very rank that our two primary gms said he couldn't ever reach in the Cormyrian army. This is coming from a PC that owns his own tavern (actually two) in Suzail and building more throughout Cormyr, has the rank in the Army of Commander, and has a really badass fighter period. And he wants more! *suddenly Ben Robbie snipes me in the head* (want to know who that is ask me later on a different post) Argh! Hey I like his character I think he has a sweet PC but all I needed him to do is PC his character one more time for my adventure (which has been going on and off for over 2-3 years). And I'm sure as heck not going to go against my fellow DMs which I see sound reasoning why he shouldn't be a General of Cormyr. Well I'm rambling now if you have any suggestions on how to convince him out of it or at least do one more adventure before he retires his character please send them in. Cause otherwise I'm going to have to rewrite the adventure that my other two PCs are in. Thanks for your time.
Cherrn 03-10-04, 09:46 AM	Let him retire his character and don't be bothered by it yourself. No PC should be able to bully a DM into making decisions. I bet he will be more irritated by the loss of his character than you would. And I am with you on this one, if you aren't born in Cormyr then you can't become a purple dragon knight. Also, the way he acts is extremely childish. It reminds of a 5 year old kid who can't get the candy he wants, so he just crosses his arms in defiance and seems to say, "well if I can't have that candy I don't want anything else!" (said with tears running down his cheeks) That's how I pictured the PC when I read your story. When it all comes down to it, don't let him have his way, cos if he gets it the way he wants then it wont stop there. He'll try to pressure you into changing your decisions in the future.
Lashan 03-11-04, 06:12 PM	Anyone who is threatening to pull out all their characters unless one of their characters gets an in-game reward is NOT being a good player. That person would be politly asked to not play with us anymore. Or, just don't give him the rank and let him storm off on his/her own.
Sarta 03-11-04, 08:58 PM	Actually, given Cormyr's current situation, it may be easier than people think, it just wouldn't be through ordinary promotion, but instead through appointment. With the heavy losses suffered in Cormyr in the last few years, I would think a trustworthy non-native (assuming he/she isn't Sembian) could purchase enough land to qualify as nobility. Of course they would be looked down upon as "new money" by the rest of the established nobles. If this new noble was able to field enough troops for Cormyr, he/she would qualify as a new general in the army of Cormyr. Now, most pc's aren't going to have a fraction of that kind of cash (or be willing to spend it thusly), but I'd say a window is open. Were I running this, the pc in question would also be facing some rather grueling mental probing to discover his/her true loyalties and dedication to Cormyr by Purple Wizards. He/she would also have a detachment of Purple Wizards there to "aid him" (read babysit). Sarta
Charles Phipps 03-11-04, 11:05 PM	I see from both sides. Basically nothing is an inviolate rule in my opinion. Remember Napoleon became EMperor of France and he isn't French (he's Corsican, which is very different from Italian) Same for the Roman Army, not all generals were Roman Just tell him what he'd need to do to impress the Cormyrians enough to become a general.
Highlander316 03-11-04, 11:26 PM	You don't get everything you want in life, as everyone knows. The same applies for DnD. A good player would accept this and role with the punches of not being a native born. Arnold Schwarzenegger can't become president, because he wasn't born here, and no law or ammendmant is going to change that. I believe a DM should be flexible, but every DM has a limit, and if this is yours, then stick to your guns. Just because he can't become a general, doesn't mean he can't impact the army or the region in a major way. He could be the moral leader, or the rally-er. How many sports teams have a player in the locker room that everyone looks up to and more or less "follows their example" and "gives the troops the inspiration they need". It's not always the coach that does that. As a DM, i understand you want to make all the players happy. But as a player, I would look at this not as a DM suppressing issue, but a really good role-playing challenge. And if he continues to cry about it, ask him if he wants some cheese to go along with that whine, and send some Gnolls to burn down his Taverns.
Monsoon28 03-12-04, 08:40 AM	Ok well the PC sounds rather young to be throwing a tantrum like that, but my suggestion. Leave it open, tell him that Cormyr is not just going to throw around the rank of general to just anyone. He's going to need to spend time in the military proving himself, and as stated above need to make a significant land purchase. Other wise I'd say he's SOL, now if he can't guide troops in successful battles (and I don't mean phyrric victories) at a lower rank, like lieutenant or captain then he's never going to climb the ladder any higher. Also I would expect him to spend feats on Leadership and some of those martial feats from Complete Warrior to reflect his abilities as a war leader. If he isn't happy with this then tell him politely to no-longer game with you.
Ramius_Mordale 03-12-04, 10:12 AM	He is 20 years old to say exactly. And yes he is being very childish about his character. I agree that with time he may prove himself but he doesn't want to be less 'powerful' then is fellow adventure (who is a War Wizard and native born of Cormyr with noble blood in his vains, though I can't recall this characters actual title at the moment). He is taking this prestige class and believes he should have Generalship now not later. Ah the prestige class is in the Sword and Fist and I believe its called the Warmaster. It gives him a whole bunch of castles for free when he levels. (Which in common Medevil history would be a lordship and a lord has the ability to raise and command an army). Now technically my friend who is the War Wizard has always been higher rank then the PC who wants to be a general. He had it in his history that he was apart of Cormyr's War Wizards while the one who wanted to be a general doesn't. And his only arguement he gives me is 'Well in the USA any immigrant can be a rank of General but can't be President' and thats everything he basis it on. His character first of all is a native of Westgate (which Cormyr doesn't trust and almost dislikes them as much as Sembia) plus its a fuedalistic monarchy with a family and noble family established for generations and generations. Now I'm not saying if he came to me (and my fellow DMs) and said 'hey if i work really hard and bring numerous victories to Cormyr that I be a Viscount and a prominent member of the defense council or a General of his territory holdings. Sure no problem but he wants to be a General! and nothing else. Now I usually don't shut characters down if they have a good reason why their character is trying to achieve this, but I have of yet heard anything to convince me (and my fellow DMs) of why we should reverse our decision. But I shall present these options to him that you have given me. I could use some more feedback, but I thank those that have contributed so far for your opinions and ideas.
Mystery Man 03-12-04, 10:27 AM	Hey I like his character I think he has a sweet PC but all I needed him to do is PC his character one more time for my adventure (which has been going on and off for over 2-3 years). Let him retire it and you run it as an NPC. At least it will be easier to get what you want done. :) He is 20 years old to say exactly. And yes he is being very childish about his character. It's true when they say that one rotten apple ruins the whole barrel. I've never had to boot someone from my gaming table until just recently. I had this player who would take it personally when/if something bad would happen to his character. He would complain and yell and call me names whenever things went badly or something in the story I was telling had no immediate or apparant meaning for him. You know its bad when one of my players who never has an unkind word to say about anyone calls me up to complain. Anyway, last weekend we had our first session without him and I tell ya, it was the difference between night and day. He wont be coming back.
Morka 03-12-04, 10:31 AM	Originally posted by Sarta Actually, given Cormyr's current situation, it may be easier than people think, it just wouldn't be through ordinary promotion, but instead through appointment. With the heavy losses suffered in Cormyr in the last few years, I would think a trustworthy non-native (assuming he/she isn't Sembian) could purchase enough land to qualify as nobility. Of course they would be looked down upon as "new money" by the rest of the established nobles. If this new noble was able to field enough troops for Cormyr, he/she would qualify as a new general in the army of Cormyr. Now, most pc's aren't going to have a fraction of that kind of cash (or be willing to spend it thusly), but I'd say a window is open. Were I running this, the pc in question would also be facing some rather grueling mental probing to discover his/her true loyalties and dedication to Cormyr by Purple Wizards. He/she would also have a detachment of Purple Wizards there to "aid him" (read babysit). Sarta I think the same. But since it seems to be greed and/or pride that motivate the PC, have a priest of Bane or Gargauth present him this aspect. Or even better, and Erineye, with Fiend of Corruption levels! With hope that the player will understand the message...
Wooly Rupert 03-12-04, 11:08 AM	Originally posted by Highlander316 Arnold Schwarzenegger can't become president, because he wasn't born here, and no law or ammendmant is going to change that. Not to go off-topic, but an amendment to the Constitution could change that... It's not likely, but it is possible.
Monsoon28 03-12-04, 01:29 PM	Sorry to hear his reasoning is so selfish :( First off, I'm sure you've reminded him that its Cormyr not the USA, the have nothing in common with each other. Westgate! That's a strike against him...but when it comes down to it, if his only reason is because he jealous of the war wizard, then noooooo way don't give in, get rid of him if you have to. As Mystery Man said it only takes one, I was in a group with one and boy did things get supremely better when he was gone. Hope things work out :thumbsup:
BrassMonkey 03-12-04, 01:45 PM	FRCS says that Cormyr has generously offered land grants to anyone who can tame the Stonelands. If the PC wants to be a General that badly, have a military leader tell him that they do not have an army to turn over to him, but were he to successfully build and maintain an army in the Stonelands and agree via magical means (some kind of gaes) to fastidiously defend Cormyr from intrusion, that he would be confered not only the lands (which would make him a Lord/noble), but also the title of General of the Stonelands army, Protectorate of Cormyr. In this case Cormyr is not placing themselves in any kind of danger from the character (as they dont currently control the Stonelands anyways), but they still provide him with the motivation to accomplish something that they may want. In my experience, when dealing with a difficult person (regardless of age or station in life) you need to give them something that they perceive as being valuable. This may not need to be very valuable to you, but if the other person perceives that they have gotten their way, they will be more likely to go along with your wishes as you have already made a concession to them. It is tremendously difficult to DM high level characters who decide that they want to participate in the inner workings of the world around them. The rate at which characters can ascend in personal power and amass wealth is beyond incredible. The simplest way of handling this (IMHO) is to exclude them as much as possible from the power structures in place. The local govenments may want the services of powerful adventurers, but they are not interested in losing their own power to them.
ender 03-12-04, 04:10 PM	I agree with most of what has been said above by the various posters, both regarding ideas as to handling his generalship in game and the difficulties out of game. You are the DM, and if you've made a decision, then that's it. Having said that, however, it is my opinion that nothing should ever be impossible. There are always options for a PC to achieve what he wants; they may have to work for it, however, or make distasteful compromises. BrassMonkey's Stonelands idea is a good example. Establishing himself in the Stonelands is an adventure unto itself. Morka's idea has just as much potential: have a fiend or some evil genius present the PC with a generalship on a platter in exchange for a debt. He can have his generalship, but only by pledging himself to dark powers. Or he could present himself to the regent, ask to become a general, and have to complete a very important/dangerous quest to achieve it. Even if it Cormyrean law that only natives may rise that high in the military, there can always be exceptions. The key, however, is that it will never be something that is just given away (especially because of out of game petulance). It must be earned.
Sarta 03-12-04, 09:07 PM	Originally posted by Monsoon28 Westgate! That's a strike against him...but when it comes down to it, if his only reason is because he jealous of the war wizard, then noooooo way don't give in, get rid of him if you have to. heh, didn't realize he was from Westgate. Man, I'd have him up to his eyeballs in a Fire Knives plotline. Of course, they could probably be very helpful in assisting him to become a general. They do have extensive contacts amongst some of Cormyr's nobility. There would be the small matter of paying them back of course (providing intelligence regarding troop deployment, smuggling wanted criminals into Cormyr, leaving certain homes unguarded, hiding bodies, providing weapon passes, disturbing murder evidence, and I'm sure much much worse). Sarta
Ramius_Mordale 03-14-04, 07:21 AM	Actually in his story he has the Night Mask of Westgate after him, 'cause he has a list of names that has their agents in a guild(s) that have inflitrated it. Its a cool backstory he had set up, but alas apparantly he has decided to retire his character for good. Oh, this is to Ender, I never said I it would be impossible, but I see what you are saying. We (the three DMs that take turns with running this campaign for over 2 years) approached him with this idea in the past of being the Lord of the Stonelands. Thats when he didn't want it but would really like to be a General of Cormyr, but it was never the intent of the campaign to be based solely in Cormyr. Actually, Cormyr was where the War Wizard in our group story came to be fore front in the campaign. We were in Cormyr by chance when the Orcs lead by the Red Dragon invaded Cormyr. So we (my PC and the rest of the adventuring party besides the War Wizard) all were going to be mercenaries while our War Wizard friend lead his troops under his command in the Cormyrian War. That way us mercenaries could continue to serve by our fellow adventurer's side in these trying times. Needless to say the PC in question that wants to be a general suddenly becomes citizen of Cormyr and joins the Army. In anycase, as I said I like the guys PC, he is a great friend of mine, and I probably wouldn't have the heart to kick him out of the group against his will. But its when he gets in this mentality of, saying in short, 'gaining power at all cost' that it really starts to wear down this group. And as of late, to his credit, he has thought of not playing D&D anymore. Plus I have suggested to him your ideas but he and i agreed that it would just be best for him to retire his character. Again I thank you guys for all your advice. You've all been a great help in advising me on this issue. Well feel free to say more but I think that about wraps it up. Adios.
adrian 03-14-04, 11:48 AM	you're letting him use a prestige class from one of the guidebooks? and he's still being an ass? i say kick him out of the group.
ender 03-14-04, 10:49 PM	Its good to hear that you seem to have resolved the situation amicably. I hope that whatever you collectively decide leads to a better game and a closer friendship.