Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dolphin49 01-07-07, 10:15 AM	people keep telling me its impossible. i no it would be extremely hard but have any of you done this before. even if i came up witha way to win around 50 lv my dm would find a way to screw me but i really want to do it
Red_Wizard 01-07-07, 12:28 PM	Alone? No, not even at 50th level could it be done alone. Thay is a vast easily defensible set of plateaus, that is so heavily patroled both militarily, and magically, there is no way to sneak an army in. Now, should you choose to go the army route, then of the few entrances there are to even the first enscarpment, they all have bottleneck choke points, into which a marching army would have to push through. This will not happen. Not with the Griffon riders, Cyrics Legion, and The legion of Bone, composing an impressing fighting force on their own, while still only marching as a tiny portion of Thay's potential combined might. Then, the average Red Wizard sports a fighting force of their own that ranges from 800-2000 troops. Zulkir Aznar Thrul alone has over 9000 troops alone stationed in and around Bezantur. If you really want to try and defeat Thay, either wait and hope for some inner turmoil to destroy it from within, or try and unite all surrounding nations and cross your fingers. (note that the simbul will not be a part of this, so you will be fighting without the backing of the chosen.) Basically, crushing Thays forces is alot easier when they come out of their home, than when you are forcing them too fight in it. Too date the only true force that posed Thay a real threat, was the Tuigan Horde in 1359-1360.
createvmind 01-07-07, 12:32 PM	The answer is yes, you need another horde that is assited with magical firepower and aerial forces. That's not likely to ever happen so the answer is NO.
Mirtek 01-07-07, 12:38 PM	Thay would have lost against the invaders from the elemental plane of fire, if not for thayan emissaries who reached the court of Kossuth and told him about the invasion (which the lords of the salamanders and efreet started without his permission) and he called the invaders back.
MarkusTay63 01-07-07, 12:50 PM	Thay has held off a horde of a 1/4 million crazy barabrians, The Simbul, and the Witches of Rashemen. Any single Zulkir controls an army nealy as powerful as that held by many nations. Any two Zulkirs co-operating should be able to conquer most smaller countries (city-states). All of them working together should be able to conquer anyone short of Halruaa. Fortunately, they almost never co-operate, except to defend Thay. There are 10 Drow cities underneath Thay, and if they didn't have as much trouble working together as Thay, they could possibly beat Thay by surprise attack from below. Note I said 'possibly'. The only thing that could possibly bring about the downfall of Thay is a lev 3 harper, and only if he works with centaur. :yuck:
createvmind 01-07-07, 12:56 PM	You didn't like that novel I see, LOL.
Wellin_Adipocere 01-07-07, 01:24 PM	Anything can be conquered so I say yes, however doing it is a different story. I don't know when the next time of troubles is going to occur but that would probably going to be the best time to try. Apart from that i don't think Mystra would let you destroy Thay and all it's magic altogether. So you might have to contend with a few chosens and you know how fun that is;)
MarkusTay63 01-07-07, 01:32 PM	You didn't like that novel I see, LOL.The only book that has ever made me mad at my eyeballs for a whole month......
Wellin_Adipocere 01-07-07, 02:17 PM	:confused: MarkusTay63, which novel was that?:confused:
Ramenth 01-07-07, 04:34 PM	Sure; You could conqure thay reasonably easily with the right army. Ofcourse, Said army would probably require 2/3's of the Dragons in Realmspace to make it an 'easy' task, but hey. It's doable. :P
MarkusTay63 01-07-07, 09:06 PM	:confused: MarkusTay63, which novel was that?:confused:Discussing novels (in a derogatory way) is against the rules, so lets just say it's the one where a harper and a centaur take on several entire Thayan armies and match wits with Szass-Tam and win. :rolleyes: Check Please........
Wellin_Adipocere 01-07-07, 11:48 PM	Sorry about that i didn't mean to try and get you into hot water. I'll check it out thanks.
johnkretzer 01-08-07, 01:36 AM	It is doable (nothing is impossible after all) but it will require a army and forces working inside Thay to cause a slave revolt. Oh and if you think the chosen will not let you because of the destruction of all that magic well just recruit your a army of wizards from different planes and convert them to Mystra. Or at level 50 just go and kill all the leaders and assume control(sorry I really don't see anyone in Thay standing up to a 50th level character.)
Evil-fuma 01-08-07, 01:56 AM	Thay could be defeated by armed forces, but it would probably take the combined forces of Aglarond, Rashemen, whatever mulhorand could spare to throw at it, the drow of Undrek'Thoz(the drow nation under Thay), and a slave revolt that takes place while all four of these nations attack. As you can see, it is highly unlikely that this will ever happen, so your best chance is to just try to get the zulkirs to kill each other off.
BrianCritchley 01-08-07, 04:23 AM	it doesn't matter what level you are, the amount of territory a single man can hold is about the length of a sword. as such to hold land you're going to need lots of swords. tthat being said if the DM says it's impossiable it's impossiable. most DMs perfer their players not to run around conquering nations.
Red_Wizard 01-08-07, 10:49 AM	Discussing novels (in a derogatory way) is against the rules, so lets just say it's the one where a harper and a centaur take on several entire Thayan armies and match wits with Szass-Tam and win. :rolleyes: Check Please........ *Nods in Agreement, and shakes head in shame at the novel*
Issabella 01-09-07, 02:02 PM	*Nods in Agreement, and shakes head in shame at the novel* please tell me you are jocking? I have been away awhile but please please tell me you are just kidding and that is not the premise of a novel? :weep:
Stigger 01-09-07, 06:25 PM	Militarily, I'd seriously doubt anyone's chances in straight out warfare. Now social warfare... that could work, but you'd need some really powerful weapons and a unique set of circumstances to pull it off. Firstly, you'd need something remarkably unlikely and powerful, say for sake of arguement a universal spell component, and then secondly be powerful enough personally that they wouldn't be able to just seize it from you, and also be in a place where they couldn't/wouldn't just come in en masse and take it that way. Then you'd have to pick the right Zulkirs and/or influential Red Wizards, woo them over to your side, and do some careful political maneuvering and with some luck bring everyone over to your way of thinking... and probably get into some nasty scrapes along the way to take out the intractable sorts. Then you have to hope the changes are permanent and malleable to your will, otherwise, you're going to have a very short lifespan with a united Thay after you... Obviously a lot of detail left out, but you get the idea.
The Simbul 01-09-07, 06:56 PM	At level 50 there is very little a character couldn't accomplish, barring the extensive use of ad-hoc and advanced NPCs and Monsters to assault them (like diving avatars or epic advanced elite paragon dragons). Thay, as it exists today, can be destroyed by a charismatic and powerful character who either manages to empower and unite the enemies1 of the Red Wizards against them, and/or who manages to wipe out enough of the Red Wizards to destabilize the country and instigate a revolt from the slaves or any of the other oppressed classes. Oh, and NO, by the "enemies of the Red Wizards" I am not simply referring to Aglarond, Rashemen, Mulhorand, and the servants of Mystra, nor am I even including them in such a calculation. I once had a character concept in mind who, once I leveled her up to her final planned pinnacle (CE Mulan human sorcerer 23/cosmic descryer 10), would proceed to systematically annihilate Thay and its ruling Red Wizards with the aid/service of the likes of Eltab and innumerous bound denizens of the Outer Planes, as well as many Living Spells and Nishhruu of her own design and creation, the latter of which could be affected by the spells of whatever spellcaster cast their associated Origin of Species epic spell to bring them into existance in the first place....all sent in massive hordes to fall upon Thay in a sweeping tidal wave of destruction...all because of the cultural persecution she endured in her youth in Thay for having the talents of sorcery instead of wizardry.
DreamStalker 01-09-07, 07:58 PM	Thay would be one of the more difficult nations to conquer in my opinion. Now what do you want to gain by conquering Thay? Rulership over area/peoples/magic that it posseses? To crush and destroy the nation? The overthrow of the Red Wizard magocracy? These different goals require differening methods. Basically there needs to be a counter against any resource they can bring to bare against an opposing force. Theoretically a 50th level character could essentially Nuke the nation. Or individually slaughter the Zulkirs and place themselves up as new Tyrant, threatening those running the existing system to fall in line or perish. Ultimately the question comes down to what your DM is willing to run. If your DM says no, then you cannot.
Red_Wizard 01-09-07, 08:20 PM	At level 50 there is very little a character couldn't accomplish, barring the extensive use of ad-hoc and advanced NPCs and Monsters to assault them (like diving avatars or epic advanced elite paragon dragons). Thay, as it exists today, can be destroyed by a charismatic and powerful character who either manages to empower and unite the enemies1 of the Red Wizards against them, and/or who manages to wipe out enough of the Red Wizards to destabilize the country and instigate a revolt from the slaves or any of the other oppressed classes. Oh, and NO, by the "enemies of the Red Wizards" I am not simply referring to Aglarond, Rashemen, Mulhorand, and the servants of Mystra, nor am I even including them in such a calculation. I once had a character concept in mind who, once I leveled her up to her final planned pinnacle (CE Mulan human sorcerer 23/cosmic descryer 10), would proceed to systematically annihilate Thay and its ruling Red Wizards with the aid/service of the likes of Eltab and innumerous bound denizens of the Outer Planes, as well as many Living Spells and Nishhruu of her own design and creation, the latter of which could be affected by the spells of whatever spellcaster cast their associated Origin of Species epic spell to bring them into existance in the first place....all sent in massive hordes to fall upon Thay in a sweeping tidal wave of destruction...all because of the cultural persecution she endured in her youth in Thay for having the talents of sorcery instead of wizardry. Could work if Mystra and her chosen didn't exist. But Mystra would at least send one of them too stop her (or a similarly built character) and it would all fall apart. If she won't let the Simbul wreck Thay, she won't let some nobody ;). please tell me you are jocking? I have been away awhile but please please tell me you are just kidding and that is not the premise of a novel? This novel is old, but yes, I wouldn't reccomend it as even your last pick for novels.
DreamStalker 01-09-07, 09:40 PM	Could work if Mystra and her chosen didn't exist. But Mystra would at least send one of them too stop her (or a similarly built character) and it would all fall apart. If she won't let the Simbul wreck Thay, she won't let some nobody ;). The Simbul is one of the Chosen and therefore is supposed to be upholding certain strictures. Those who are not Chosen would not necessarily be opposed. Depends on how 'upsetting ' the plan would eventually be. Also the Chosen are much more active in the novels than they are in people's personal games.
The Simbul 01-09-07, 10:27 PM	Could work if Mystra and her chosen didn't exist. But Mystra would at least send one of them too stop her (or a similarly built character) and it would all fall apart. If she won't let the Simbul wreck Thay, she won't let some nobody ;).Yes, I am fully aware of what should (or what should not) instigate the intervention of Mystra's Chosen in a campaign. That said, I do not imagine the Simbul would choose to immerse herself into an internal Thayan power struggle or upheaval, specifically if it doesnt threaten Aglarond, and if doing so would be dangerous for her at the time, and specifically if doing so might cause blame for it to fall at her feet rather than that of the perpetator...i.e. the PC was just a disposable disguise used by the Witch-Queen to perpetrate such crimes...or easily believeable propaganda that the Simbul used blade in the soul or similarly deadly compulsion spells to incite the Red Wizards or their enemies into acting against them. Moreover, neither Mystra nor her Chosen so much as lifted a finger to prevent or mitigate the mass slaughter and assassination campaign against the entire Researcher faction of the Red Wizards carried out by Szass Tam, waged by the Zulkir of Necromancy to secure his political stranglehold over the country and to set it onto its Imperialist, warmongering agenda (up until 1371 at least). So why on earth they would choose to swoop down and stop a Thayan sorcerer trying to get some payback against the society that created her, by uniting or exploiting the masses of enemies the Red Wizards have made for themselves, is beyond me. I don't anticipate the Simbul suddenly throwing herself into the fray to save them unless doing so was absolutely necessary. Moreover, even if the likes of Eltab and/or his mortal allies somehow conquered Thay and/or carved out a realm there, and it did become a threat to its neigbors, then it would not be too far fetched or too late for the Simbul, the other Chosen, the Wychlaran, the High Mages of Sildeyuir, the Circle of Leth, and the Guardians of the Weave, or any combination thereof to band together (after the threat had become apparent and after Red Wizards were mostly destroyed), and then seal off Thay with mythal-like wards similar to those that created the Sharn Wall or the sealing wards around Hellgate Keep, or just engulf the plateau with some massive banishment spell-storm.
Red_Wizard 01-09-07, 10:47 PM	There is a slight difference between a Thayan wizard of Szass Tams status removing a small organization in order to solidify his vision of a united Thay, and the miniacal goals of a sorceress bent on the complete destruction of all that is Thayan. Mystra won't allow the destrution of it by the Simbul, for the same reason I believe she would oppose the destruction of it by some upstart, who's simply unhappy with her childhood. Thay is to large of a magical nation too have it destroyed out right, or at least dimished to the point of extinction, and then sealed off from the world by some epic spell or another. Now should in this instence the sorceress only wish to unseat the reigning Zulkirs and place her self merrily at Thay's head, I see nothing wrong with that, it is something that all Red Wizards strive to do. So long as Thay remains much unchanged then Yes this scenario is plausible. My point remains however, its total destruction is something that is unlikely given many points of argument on the matter. I simply chose too use Mystra and her chosen too illustrate the reason your suggestion most likly would fail. :)
Ramenth 01-10-07, 01:46 AM	To reference another thread... I suppose you could defeat all of Thay if you had a small number of Wizards capable of casting Volcano and Proctiv's Move Mountain, and went with the 'Fling volcano's at them untill they die' tatic.
MarkusTay63 01-10-07, 02:03 AM	This novel is old, but yes, I wouldn't reccomend it as even your last pick for novels.Not that I would EVER put down any of the wonderful published material about the Realms, buuuut..... Lets just put it this way, if you were stuck on a tiny island with nothing but a palm tree and THAT novel, you should eat the book and read a coconut instead. :rolleyes:
Walls 01-10-07, 09:43 AM	I find it slightly odd we have a million solutions to a player character group taking over earth yet near none to any sized force taking over Thay.
Red_Wizard 01-10-07, 11:39 AM	Well for one Taking all of our planet with a single fighting force would be rediculous too begin with. Then you have to factor in that we sport no magic what-so-ever. Thay on the other hand is one of the three largest arcane oriented Empires in Faerun. Then comes the issue of intelligence. Any info, on any country can be bought for the right price, or at least access to means to find out. Thay is extremly insular, and what is leaked is rarely accurate. Then, all your coin will not buy accurate scying on the nation due to their shieldings. It could go on, but i'll leave jsu those two examples as is. Anything is possible, however unlikly. And, one can hardly compare Earth to Toril, or even too one of it's nations. Magic makes most mundane observations moot in the best of circumstances.
DreamStalker 01-10-07, 12:16 PM	Never trust a Red Wizard when trying to gather intelligence on conquering Thay. :P
Derren S. 01-10-07, 12:28 PM	I find it slightly odd we have a million solutions to a player character group taking over earth yet near none to any sized force taking over Thay. Because fighting against something without magic is much easier then fighting against a magical powerhouse. But when we are talking about a force of "any size" then of course Thay can be conquered. You just need a force 5 time as powerfull as Thay.
DreamStalker 01-10-07, 12:34 PM	To win a battle, yes. To conquer you need something more than just a bigger force. There is the need for the ability to hold the land and peoples. Considering the defensive layout of the Thayan lands a force five times as big as the Thayan forces does not necessarily overpower them. First off I would suggest diverting the attention of the Zulkirs as much as possible. Try to exasperate any rifts currently going on between them. Draw off their personal armies and resources to far away locales. Then I would attempt cutting off their trade routes to other countries. Followed by attempting to draw their defensive forces out into more open ground that has been prepared to handle them. Then with infiltrators attempt to spark rebellion among the oppressed classes and races. I think the organization most apt to have the appropriate skill set for conquering Thay would be the Zhentarim. There is a huge difference in localized resources however.
Red_Wizard 01-10-07, 03:09 PM	To win a battle, yes. To conquer you need something more than just a bigger force. There is the need for the ability to hold the land and peoples. Considering the defensive layout of the Thayan lands a force five times as big as the Thayan forces does not necessarily overpower them. The biggest issue with any size force, is easily moving into, and through Thays many rising plateus. That being said, if you wish to attack, do so from the water, and strike at the Alaor first, holding if you can, moving fast inward if you can't. Bezantur is your best best for trying to take and hold, at least from a country crippling stand point. But, it'll alos be the swiftest defended should an attack arise. Also, from a water assault, you will have to contend with the Red Scourge, and at least two dozen of the griffon riders. First off I would suggest diverting the attention of the Zulkirs as much as possible. Try to exasperate any rifts currently going on between them. Draw off their personal armies and resources to far away locales. Then I would attempt cutting off their trade routes to other countries. Followed by attempting to draw their defensive forces out into more open ground that has been prepared to handle them. Then with infiltrators attempt to spark rebellion among the oppressed classes and races. Thay needs no external resources to support itself, all food is internal, and they produce enough crops in a season, that it has been suggested they could easily have dominated the market with produce alone. As for drawing them out, this may work depening on the size of the army marching, but should your entire force march and attempt to draw them forth, chances are they will hold the First Escarpment, and simply pummel the hordes from there. I think the organization most apt to have the appropriate skill set for conquering Thay would be the Zhentarim. There is a huge difference in localized resources however. While this organization might have the resources to front something like this, they lack the man power, or the unification to properly pose any real threat to Thay. Not to mention the infiltrated Red Wizards, might tip off their country should this situation arise. ;) Never trust a Red Wizard when trying to gather intelligence on conquering Thay.:P :eek!: Too suggest I would do anything but aid those around me is obsurd, I am a man for the people.....now should my advice on some of chance lead them blindly into the Thayan mines, that is of their own actions not anything of my doing ;)
Wellin_Adipocere 01-10-07, 03:43 PM	Okay here is my theory. To conquer Thay (why you would want to? I don't know)would have to be an act of cunning and not might; be it physical or magical. One would have to convince one of the Zulkirs to overthrow the others and join forces with you. Easier said than done. The people that would have to help you would also have to convince at least one other Zulkir to do the same. All the people in your faction would have to act unknowingly and independently of others plans in order to pass detection and mind reaming spells. They would have to be very good in the will of their minds to withstand such mindspells as those in Thay or actually believe that they are acting alone. (how one would do this i don't know). Then let the two Zulkirs move against others and spread themselves thinner or at least keep them distracted. Then start rolling natural 20's baby!:D :D At least those are my thoughts..;)
centalian 01-13-07, 05:03 AM	If you happen to know IC (by some weird turn of events) of the relationship between Szass Tam and Larloch: Find a way to anger Larloch and make it look like Tam's fault (an epic quest in and of itself, I'd imagine), then invade while Larloch and his servitors are keeping all of the Red Wizards busy. :D
Red_Wizard 01-13-07, 09:50 AM	By the rules, should Larloch leave his fortress and attack Thay, he would be destroyed. Granted he has an amazing arsenal of magic items, but his stated CR puts him on par almost with Szass Tam, and Tam would be in his own fortress, giving him the upper hand....Rediculous yes, but by the rules, liklely.
GothicDan 01-13-07, 10:59 AM	Of course, he has a lot of unknown artifacts... Even in LoD, I believe it states that. Who knows what THEY could do? Szass's CR is a 31, I believe. 29 + 2 lich. Larloch's stated CR would be 34. 32 + 2 lich. Plus his many curses and obscene amount of magical items, even with the LoD stats, would probably give him another +2.
Red_Wizard 01-13-07, 11:25 AM	I know, limited difference in CR, compared too 1800 years life span difference:P. Just saying too stay by stats, Larloch storming alone would most likely loose to a fortified Zulkir. Now in his home, nothing is killing Larloch ;)
GothicDan 01-13-07, 11:33 AM	Pft. Why would Larloch storm alone? He'd take his dozens of under-liches and vampires... Actually, he'd just stay in Warlock's Keep the whole time, but that's besides the point. :)
Red_Wizard 01-13-07, 12:03 PM	Agreed, just pointing out what would happen should someone try and drive a wedge between him and Szass somehow ;)
MarkusTay63 01-14-07, 01:09 PM	Food - if I remember correctly Thay not only produces vast amounts of food, but it exports quite a bit (mostly fruit). Thay is brilliant in that it has used magic to augment mundane things like farming. Their weather control program is the finest in the world (in other words, better even then halruua's). You remember that scene in Back to the future II when Marty complains its raining and the professor looks at his watch and says "3.. 2.. 1.." and it goes all sunny out? Thats Thay. Food for thought - If Larloch and his minions were to launch a surprise attack on Szass-Tam and take him down, would it be possible for him to imitate Szass-Tam? Szass uses spells to hide his Lichdom from ordinary folks, so if someone else did the same how would they know it isn't Szass? The Zulkir always has tons of antiscrying spells in effect, so once again no one would find anything amiss. Szass-tams own desire for privacy has left him vulnerable; he doesn't even have any 'friends' that might trip-up a would-be impersonater. And if the rest of the Red Wizards eventually found out, would they even care? :confused:
Stigger 01-14-07, 04:02 PM	Could always convince the Red Wizards to 'improve' their weather control magic so that they created the magical equivalent of a closed weather system, sorta like a biodome in concept, then used whatever means to make a volcano or two erupt... there's a couple on the plateau somewhere if I recall correctly. Instant greenhouse effect, everything but the undead dies off in a very short period of time, march an army of clerics and paladins of Lathander to mop up the undead and you have some very good wine lands after you clear up that pesky atmospheric problem... a tiny bit extreme, sure, but... it could work I guess for the really ruthless. :D
Bonzai 01-16-07, 02:22 PM	I have shared on these boards the one Villian NPC that I have that aspires to world domination, his plan would work for this as well. He is a Wearer of Purple of the Cult of the Dragon. Step One: He capitalized on the Dragon rages, and stockpiled dragon corpses. The rage caused hundreds of Dragons to die. This Necromancer took advantage of this and obtained as many as he could. They are secure in several bone yards around Faerun. Step Two: Find all the phylacteries possible of fallen Sacred ones, and restore them. While several Dracoliches have fallen over the years, very few have had their phylacteries destroyed. The Cult knows all the phylacteries of the Dracolitches they created, and have many of them secured. All it takes is a dragon corpse to bring it back... which we now have in abundance. These Dracoliches should be gratefull for being restored, and should owe the Necromancer a favor. Step Three: Take over, and unite the Cult of the Dragon. Calling in the Dracoliches that owe you favors, take over leadership of the cult. Step Four: When you have enough Dracoliches, set them loose as an enourmous Rage. A large rage of Dracoliches should be enough to bring down any kingdom, including Thay. As a fast mobile strike force, they would be in Thay's midst before they knew it, and dealling significant damage before Thay could regroup. When push came to shove, the Dracoliches are powerful spell casters in their own right. If some should fall, their phylacteries are secure, and they have ample corpses to use. It will be a simple matter of attrition. Thay's litch population would be the last pocket of resistance, and will prove some what problematic. However this Necromancer has spent his life tracking down phylacteries. When it's all said and done, Thay would be destroyed. "Naught will be left save shattered thrones. And Dead Dragons shall rule the world entire."
Renvale999 01-16-07, 03:40 PM	Give me a Lvl 40 Cleric, a Lvl 40 Fighter, a Lvl 40 Rogue and a Lvl 40 Wizard and I'd take Thay over in a matter of days. Oh wait, been there, done that. Ah, the good old days of Epic-Level Adventuring. I miss that character( I was the Wizard).
Red_Wizard 01-17-07, 11:33 AM	Give me a Lvl 40 Cleric, a Lvl 40 Fighter, a Lvl 40 Rogue and a Lvl 40 Wizard and I'd take Thay over in a matter of days. Oh wait, been there, done that. Ah, the good old days of Epic-Level Adventuring. I miss that character( I was the Wizard). Might I enquire as too how 4 people took Thay in a matter of days ?
Renvale999 01-17-07, 01:32 PM	Might I enquire as too how 4 people took Thay in a matter of days ? Well, it's been 2 years since that Campaign but what I do remember is this. 1. Made a deal with Larloch not to interfere if we killed Szass Tam. 2. Our priest took over the Church of Kossuth by killing the High Priest and convinced the rest of them that he was sent by Kossuth (He was a cleric of Asmodues). 3. Gated to each individual Tharchion and killed him/her and had Dopplegangers followers take over in their place. 4. Used a wish spell to bypass Szass Tam's Defenses in his Tower so we could Gate in, then the priest cast a Epic Undead Slaying spell (Don't remember the name) and Szass was toast. 5. Convinced Szass's legions to follow us (Priest) 6. Summoned each individual Tharchion to Szass's Tower and convinced them it was in their best interest to follow us. Had to kill two of them and I(Wizard) had two of my followers take over in their place. Wha-La, Thay was at our command. Easy-Peesy, Lemon Squeazy.
Evil-fuma 01-17-07, 02:52 PM	sounds like everything whent a little to easy, remember szass tam probably has some back up for in case his lich form is killed.
Renvale999 01-17-07, 03:09 PM	sounds like everything whent a little to easy, remember szass tam probably has some back up for in case his lich form is killed. Well, his Philactary(can't spell) was on another plane(Negative Energy I think), had to fight a Great Wyrm Dracolich and some nasty vampires but we handled them fairly easily. Sorry, don't mean to brag... We were just really powerful and we were very tactical, both in combat and outside of combat. Luckily we all were mature gamers so we took alot time to plan (Both in game and out of game) and tried to cover all the bases. The DM wasn't a pushover either, the rogue died in the fight with the Dracolich (CR35 with the vamps, well below our lvl but the DM was a good tactician himself). We took over Thay in days but that was after months of planning(again, in game and out of game). If you get a chance, make a lvl 40 character and give them the proper equipment for that lvl, and trust me, you'll see that Szass Tam was clearly out-matched and out-gunned.
Red_Wizard 01-17-07, 04:17 PM	Well, his Philactary(can't spell) was on another plane(Negative Energy I think), had to fight a Great Wyrm Dracolich and some nasty vampires but we handled them fairly easily. Sorry, don't mean to brag... We were just really powerful and we were very tactical, both in combat and outside of combat. Luckily we all were mature gamers so we took alot time to plan (Both in game and out of game) and tried to cover all the bases. The DM wasn't a pushover either, the rogue died in the fight with the Dracolich (CR35 with the vamps, well below our lvl but the DM was a good tactician himself). We took over Thay in days but that was after months of planning(again, in game and out of game). If you get a chance, make a lvl 40 character and give them the proper equipment for that lvl, and trust me, you'll see that Szass Tam was clearly out-matched and out-gunned. Well, I'm glad you had fun with that, no matter how impossible it would have been. I could have bought your plan had it been done over a time frame of several years, or even decades, but there is no reasonable explanation as to how 4 adventures, not only made thier way into Larlochs home and talked too him on equal footing, but also alone took down one of the three most powerful magical nations in Faerun. I'm am fairly confident in saying your DM had no idea how too use the Red Wizards Circle Magic, otherwise you all would have been snuffed with your first visit to Szass. Also, he obviously put no magical defenses in place too prevent your very obvious stratagies, so you could have done nothing but win in the given circumstances. But like I said, I'm glad you had fun.
Renvale999 01-17-07, 04:46 PM	Well, I'm glad you had fun with that, no matter how impossible it would have been. I could have bought your plan had it been done over a time frame of several years, or even decades, but there is no reasonable explanation as to how 4 adventures, not only made thier way into Larlochs home and talked too him on equal footing, but also alone took down one of the three most powerful magical nations in Faerun. I'm am fairly confident in saying your DM had no idea how too use the Red Wizards Circle Magic, otherwise you all would have been snuffed with your first visit to Szass. Also, he obviously put no magical defenses in place too prevent your very obvious stratagies, so you could have done nothing but win in the given circumstances. But like I said, I'm glad you had fun. Circle Magic is a joke, number 1...grossly underpowered. Secondly, we left most of the magical defenses still in tact or simply bypassed them. Again, make a 40th lvl character and see how powerful it is, trust me, there's not much in the realms that can stand up to it then add 3 more and see what happens. And secondly, Larloch isn't as powerful as everyone makes him out to be, the only reason we left him alive is he was interesting to talk to... But I can imagine most people believe there are just some things you can't do, but that was the point of that campaign... Trying to accomplish the impossible, and we did it.
Red_Wizard 01-17-07, 05:21 PM	Circle Magic is a joke, number 1...grossly underpowered. I can sit here and think of a dozen spells alone to beat a character of said level, and all can be done by a spell caster of 16th level. My main character is a Red Wizard, and even without aid from circle magic, in a one on one fight, with the element of surprise, and time to prepare I would pit him against any of your 40th level characters and gaurantee a win. Secondly, we left most of the magical defenses still in tact or simply bypassed them. Again, make a 40th lvl character and see how powerful it is, trust me, there's not much in the realms that can stand up to it then add 3 more and see what happens. You expect me to believe you walked into the home of Szass Tam, and removed him easily. Sorry, without poor DMing it wouldn't happen. In order to teleport safely you would need to know the location you wished to enter within his home, and with Thays protective scrying network in place, good luck getting an accurate reading of that. Not to mention Szass Tam's potent arsenal of wards he would have in place. How pray tell did you locate, identify, and manage to by pass them all without triggering them, and with all with the scrying restrictions? And secondly, Larloch isn't as powerful as everyone makes him out to be, the only reason we left him alive is he was interesting to talk to... His stats may be lacking, and while I am loathe to point out that Ed Greenwood stats him at least 42nd level, I will for the simple reason alone, that for a more accurate challenge, that should have been at least considered. Also, he is supposed to be played having a minumum of 10 levels on any PC at all times. Then ofcourse he has his mind network of hundreds of lichs, and vampires available to him, not to mention 2000 years of endless planning too make sure every situation that might occur is covered. His stats also say that he can on a moments notice devise a plan to suit and deal with any unforseen situation that might arise. Add to that the fact he was born of the Netherese, you now want me too believe you, the only wizard, were able to magically out smart Larloch? Sorry, again this situation was played boarishly wrong. But I can imagine most people believe there are just some things you can't do, but that was the point of that campaign... Trying to accomplish the impossible, and we did it. As I said the first time, I am glad you had fun, and by all means feel free to continue "doing the impossible". But, for at least myself, your grand tales of realm shaking adventures hold no ground with me, and IMHO should be forgotten by even your group.
Renvale999 01-18-07, 09:53 AM	You're right, Red Wizard, my DM of 20 years made it really easy for us. In fact I made it all up just to look cool on this thread. I have a feeling that you've had no expierence playing characters of that power-level, and until you have, don't tell me that some 16th lvl character can take down a 40th lvl character...Sorry, not gonna happen, I don't care if you've got surprise or not, h*ll, I'll give you any artifact in any book, and I still guarentee you that your character's toast. Period.
Red_Wizard 01-18-07, 10:09 AM	Not saying your DM is bad, i'm saying the situation was played wrong. And you are correct, I have not played a 40th level character, the thought of someone that level has never appealed too me. Though I do assure you, that with the element of surprise, and being properly prepard a 16th level mage, could kill your 40th level one. That being said, until one of us proves the other wrong, we're only going to be going back and forth with "yes I can, No you can't", so i'll leave it here. I'm still saying properly played, Thay can not be taken in a few days by 4 PC's, no matter how much they think they have brilliantly planned. I'm not trying too belittle in any way the enjoyment i'm sure you derived from it, only that you were cheated out of a true Thayan experience, and subjected you to a falsified ecounter in which you emerged having done what no nation in faerun has done to date. Annnd. Period. <- (see what I did there....real mature huh :rolleyes: )
MarkusTay63 01-18-07, 12:07 PM	Not to take sides, but I do have a little point. I believe Renvale999's plan would have had a chance to work only because his group did do it so quickly. If you took months, then Thays defenses would have time to recoupe and beat you easily. I think a lightening fast surprise attack taking out all the Zulkirs before they could call for help would be the ONLY WAY to conquer thay. It makes much more sense, to me anyway, for it to have happened in days rather then months. They would never expect such a rash frontal assualt, so its simplicity would actually leave them confused and off-balance. If any of the Tharchions had time to contact the others however, the whole thing would have fallen apart immediately. And Red Wizard, They were only able to do this because player characters don't have to worry about reprecussions. Real people/nations would then be the target of every evil/good group on the planet after demonstrating that much power. I'm sure if El and company (Harpers, Chosen) got together they could do it too, but then what nation on Abeir-Toril would ever trust them inside their borders again? Players are largely un-affected by real-world politics. Now, to play Devil's advocate, I would never allow such high levels near my gaming group, but to each his own.
Renvale999 01-18-07, 12:41 PM	Not saying your DM is bad, i'm saying the situation was played wrong. And you are correct, I have not played a 40th level character, the thought of someone that level has never appealed too me. Though I do assure you, that with the element of surprise, and being properly prepard a 16th level mage, could kill your 40th level one. That being said, until one of us proves the other wrong, we're only going to be going back and forth with "yes I can, No you can't", so i'll leave it here. I'm still saying properly played, Thay can not be taken in a few days by 4 PC's, no matter how much they think they have brilliantly planned. I'm not trying too belittle in any way the enjoyment i'm sure you derived from it, only that you were cheated out of a true Thayan experience, and subjected you to a falsified ecounter in which you emerged having done what no nation in faerun has done to date. Annnd. Period. <- (see what I did there....real mature huh :rolleyes: ) I'm sorry, Red Wizard, I got angry (which is normal for me) and you're right, it boils down to a fight consisting of "yes you can, no you can't." Personally, it was one of the best gaming expierences I've ever had and no player back then wouldn't have traded it for the world, simply because it seems like all anyone ever plays is low-level games, and we decided to play power-houses. It was fun, exciting and it was nice to push around all those high lvl people for once, instead of the other way around. Regardless, I think Thay can be conquered, even without high lvl people at your back. I believe the Horde from Kara-Tur could have and the Zulkirs knew it, otherwise I doubt they would have made such a deal so quickly.
Red_Wizard 01-18-07, 04:09 PM	I'm sorry, Red Wizard, I got angry (which is normal for me) and you're right, it boils down to a fight consisting of "yes you can, no you can't." Personally, it was one of the best gaming expierences I've ever had and no player back then wouldn't have traded it for the world, simply because it seems like all anyone ever plays is low-level games, and we decided to play power-houses. It was fun, exciting and it was nice to push around all those high lvl people for once, instead of the other way around. Regardless, I think Thay can be conquered, even without high lvl people at your back. I believe the Horde from Kara-Tur could have and the Zulkirs knew it, otherwise I doubt they would have made such a deal so quickly. Well having fun is the goal, so as long as that's accomplished, then the real point has been hit. And I agree had Tuigan Horde decided to fight rather than make a peaceful pass through, Thay would have been in a bad spot right there. I know Thay can be conquered, we'll just have to remain in disagreement on the ammount of time it would take ;)
Stigger 01-18-07, 04:43 PM	Could always use something cheap like an advanced paragon nishruu dropped into the middle of the zulkir's monthly tea party... anti-magic field around the doors, once the nishruu's in, cast a dimensional lock... send in the lvl 40 fighters with Really Big Swords to beat the zulkirs once the nishruu is done with them... it'd work I tell you. :D
Red_Wizard 01-18-07, 07:49 PM	Could always use something cheap like an advanced paragon nishruu dropped into the middle of the zulkir's monthly tea party... anti-magic field around the doors, once the nishruu's in, cast a dimensional lock... send in the lvl 40 fighters with Really Big Swords to beat the zulkirs once the nishruu is done with them... it'd work I tell you. :D How do the fighters get in efficiently without teleporting, and a dimensional lock in place? Whats stopping the wizards from walking into the anti-magic feild, and letting the Nishruu simply drain the fighters magical weapons? Whats to prevent the wizards from killing the Nishruu? Whats stopping the wizards from running into an area no longer dimensionally locked? Just a couple of thoughtful questions? ;) :P
Stigger 01-18-07, 09:50 PM	Cheap, paltry details I can't be bothered with. And who said the swords were magical? That would just be silly... maybe clubs would work better really, to beat them into submission.
Red_Wizard 01-18-07, 11:16 PM	Cheap, paltry details I can't be bothered with. And who said the swords were magical? That would just be silly... maybe clubs would work better really, to beat them into submission. And maybe you can use the little crustless triangular sandwiches that no common place, well publicized, meeting of the Zulkirs would be without, as throwing stars. Then roll natural 20's so many times in a row that the DM finally gives up, cries in a courner, and begins rocking back and forth muttering "they're all dead, they're all dead" until some very nice men, in clean white coats come to escort him away to a five star resort, before getting sworn in as president of the south african chess club. ;):P What, doesn't sound reasonable to you? :P
Stigger 01-19-07, 03:32 AM	Sounds perfectly reasonable... gotta use that next time I'm in Thay. :D
MarkusTay63 01-19-07, 01:34 PM	Actually I gave MY Thay back to the centaurs, and moved the Thay everyone knows into the Shaar (one of these days I'll post the map). This keeps the rural/primitive nations grouped together and the magically powerful nations grouped together, which made more sense to me. Anyhow, with Halruaa and Stygia nearby (Yeah, I know) conguering Thay could be done using completely different approaches. Besides the location change, the geography and internal politics is for the most part untouched, but there are possible allies you could find close at hand (Including Dambrath) that you don't have in it's Northern locale (Aglarond and Rashemen HATE Thay but I doubt they would want to be the agressors). Plus Mulhorand is still a player, it's just on the other side of them now. Thay is just too powerful where Ed put it, so I don't think you'd have much of a chance taking it down there.
clevercommie 01-27-07, 04:53 PM	All of them working together should be able to conquer anyone short of Halruaa. sort of coming out of nowhere, but I doubt they could put much of a dent in Evermeet
Red_Wizard 01-28-07, 12:01 AM	sort of coming out of nowhere, but I doubt they could put much of a dent in Evermeet It would really all depend on the circumstances, the allies involved, the location attacking from, and being attacked.
AngryBearsFan 01-28-07, 02:20 AM	You know, a nation or city-state does not have to be militarily conquered to be conquered. Is there a general alignment of the place in question, do the people follow specific rules? Ideas can be just as effective as brute force.
_SIN_ 01-29-07, 07:19 PM	Ideas can be just as effective as brute force. Yeah, but it ain't half as much fun!! :fight!:
Alediran 01-30-07, 08:55 AM	It would really all depend on the circumstances, the allies involved, the location attacking from, and being attacked. If they can defeat the Seldarine's defenses then I'll let them try to fight the High Mages, the Spellarchers, the Dragonriders, the Eagleriders, the Bladesingers, the Spelljammers, and the Wizards, Clerics and Fighters who compose the large part of Evermeet's troops.
Red_Wizard 01-30-07, 09:53 AM	But thats the thing. Why leave your defeansible country, and trek half way to the sword coast for Evermeet. Everything in between would either have to be theirs, or somehow subdued to the point they didn't care the Red Wizards were trying to take the Elven Sanctuary. Then, there would have to be a plan for getting past the Mythal, as no RW in his right mind would Attack a city that was surrounded by an impassible, self defending wall. Pitched one on one, on an open field, I think they would come close to drawing. Both sides would take temporary leads, and both would take heavy losses. (though I think Thay's heavy losses would be mostly comprised of slave fodder) All this being said, were Wizards to write it, and it not to be a serious matter, only one of storytelling, then Thay would lose hopelessly. After all, look at all the minor defeats Thay has suffered at the hands of weakers foes. The battle for Impiltur in 1110 comes to mind. Plain silliness IMO.
Alediran 01-30-07, 01:56 PM	Don't forget that Evermeet is halfway between Arvandor and the Material Plane, and if somebody should be able to pass the first line of defense (Aerdrie's Storm, that sinks non-elven boats, for example) the Seldarine could send their avatars (they can be seen by elves even in times of peace) to crush the invading force. Only a nutjob would dare to attack Evermeet (not counting Kymil)
clevercommie 01-30-07, 04:07 PM	Don't forget that Evermeet is halfway between Arvandor and the Material Plane, and if somebody should be able to pass the first line of defense (Aerdrie's Storm, that sinks non-elven boats, for example) the Seldarine could send their avatars (they can be seen by elves even in times of peace) to crush the invading force. Only a nutjob would dare to attack Evermeet (not counting Kymil) I think its safe to assume Kymils a nut job...:bored: Anyway, back to the subject, who exactly are you trying to get to back this invasion?
_SIN_ 01-30-07, 04:49 PM	I think its safe to assume Kymils a nut job...:bored: Anyway, back to the subject, who exactly are you trying to get to back this invasion? GNOMES of course!!
clevercommie 01-31-07, 04:21 PM	GNOMES of course!! Try as I might, I can't find a flaw in your logic. :clap: