Post/Author/DateTime	Post
thalious 05-10-04, 07:55 PM	Can it? Has anyone run a campaign that was completely devoid of any mention or appearance of some like El or Drizzt?
Yamo 05-10-04, 07:57 PM	For some, it can't be fun with them.
Cunning Linguist 05-10-04, 08:08 PM	Drizzt and El have never come about in my world.. Fzouls has, and Sculla Darkhope, but only as passing characters that PC's see in the corner of there eye, or on the far side of the table when gathering for a meeting. But there has been a reocuring Kobold Vampire lord and a roper that likes to make deals with the party, both these two have been a favoritt, and has been far more fun the Sculla and Fzouls put togheter.
75RD Drum Clip 05-10-04, 08:11 PM	I am about to find out soon.
Taelohn 05-10-04, 08:19 PM	Elminster and Drizzt are two people... out of millions. Unless you're in the exact area they happen to be at the time, and most likely searching very hard for them, you're not likely to ever run across them - and if you do, they're probably busy.
Kuje31 05-10-04, 08:32 PM	The "iconics" is what makes FR, as well as the vast depth of history, fluff, etc. You really can't run a game without running into a "iconic" character because they are any thing from a dung sweeper to a powerful archmage. FR has hundreds to thousands of "iconic" characters.
thalious 05-10-04, 08:42 PM	Character like the Simbul, Drizzt, Halaster, Szass Tam, etc.
Taelohn 05-10-04, 08:58 PM	You want to know if a campaign can work without appearance or mention of such people? Are you just talking about pushing them into the background, or removing them entirely? Well, let's take each example one at a time. The Simbul is the Queen of Aglarond. If you do not go to the capital city of Aglarond, you won't likely see or hear from her. So, odds are that if the party is anywhere in Faerun apart from the capital of Aglarond, they don't have to worry about her - so she's already in the background. Can you remove her from the game? Not without drastic changes. The nation would need a new ruler - and without the Simbul, Thay would likely conquer it. Drizzt is up near Mithral Hall, fighting against the orc tribes under King Obould. So unless your group is in that specific area, and involving themselves in the fighting, they're not likely to meet him. Espically since he works behind the scenes, and is difficult to track down. He has no interest in meeting with others at the moment, anyway. Could you remove him from the game? Possibly, and it would have far less drastic effects than the other people you mentioned. He's still doing his part, though. Halaster is in Undermountain. He pretty much never leaves, so unless you go into Undermountain, you will never see him. (Even if you do, the odds are slim; something else is liable to get you long before that). Could you remove him from the game? Only if you removed Undermountain as well. If you leave it but get rid of him, the monsters within will spill out into Waterdeep, which would be a bad thing for those living there. Szass Tam is the Zulkir of Necromancy for the Red Wizards of Thay. As the most powerful and influential zulkir, he's very important to Thay. Again, you will not meet him in person - even if you go to Thay. He's not a grunt, but a mastermind, and works through agents, and always has plots and subplots. Could you remove him? It would throw Thay into disarray, as he's the strongest ruler they've got. In conclusion, there's a definite trend here. First off - odds are you will never encounter them - any of them - unless you specifically decide to intentionally seek them out. So there's already well in the background. If you don't want to use them, leave them there. No problems. If you want to get rid of them entirely... that would have drastic reprocussions, and involve changing around entire countries, at times. If this is the case, it's better to leave the Realms entirely and set up your own world.
Autosponge 05-10-04, 09:01 PM	Since I did not create those characters, I avoid roleplaying them in my games (I'm the DM). Unless I'm certain I have read every passage ever written about the character to understand the mind of the author and creator, I am sure I'll do a disservice them and think better of trying. Other DM's feel differently. They are allowed that but woe to them if they run into a player who knows the character better. Their suspension of disbelief will snap and you'll find yourself in a confrontation over style, word choice, ethics, and history--none of which will help your game.
Taelohn 05-10-04, 09:09 PM	Exactly. As stated, unless you're specifically going out of your way to get to places you shouldn't be, all in the name of trying to find these people, you won't meet them. So just leave them there and focus on your own group. If instead you want to kill them... with a few of them, this might be possible - but if the NPCs are played the to utmost of their abilities, as they should be, it's highly unlikely any party will stand a chance. But some of these people are extremly important to the Realms. If you want to simply remove every major NPC... the whole world would change, and in which case it's better to just try homebrew than attempt to deal with something of that scale. Such NPCs are, for the most part, the flavour of the setting - without them, it's not really the Forgotten Realms any more.
thalious 05-10-04, 09:16 PM	In my case, I bought the FRCS to save me time planning, so I could get back to running adventures, instead of wracking my brain trying to think them up. Naturally, some of the notable NPCs in the FR were put on the chopping block.
Taelohn 05-10-04, 09:18 PM	But how is that natural? Such events would have major reprocussions.
thalious 05-10-04, 09:26 PM	A campaign like mine that was run entirely homebrew for over 10 years is not going start off on goblins. The PCs at the start of the FR campaign were neutral to evil, thus Good NPCs were naturally going to cross paths with the PCs at some point. Also, like any published adventure, the NPCs were put there for the DM to use, not treat like sacred cows.
Taelohn 05-10-04, 09:31 PM	But the already tenous balance between good and evil would then swing quite a bit. With all the most powerful good-aligned characters destroyed, good in general could be wiped out in short order. Once all Faerun is controlled by evil groups, they'll start fighting against one another... so it will develop into a last-man-standing-on-the-continent situation?
Darth K'Trava 05-10-04, 09:32 PM	I wouldn't know... We've only run into three: Elminster, Ivan and Pikel. I think there was another one there with El, but can't be sure since at that point in that particular session, I was "out of it" from working that morning.....
thalious 05-10-04, 09:36 PM	My campaign is very chaotic, I run multiple parties in the game world, some good, some evil, some in between. Lately, the evil parties have made to most splash. Such will not always be the case.
Sammael_the_Chosen 05-11-04, 02:49 AM	Originally posted by Kuje31 The "iconics" is what makes FR, as well as the vast depth of history, fluff, etc. You really can't run a game without running into a "iconic" character because they are any thing from a dung sweeper to a powerful archmage. FR has hundreds to thousands of "iconic" characters. Wut? If I look into a sourcebook and find out that the ruler of Iriaebor is a paladin of Eldath and then use him when my players go there, am I using an "iconic" character? I think not. Now, if there were a novel about the aforementioned paladin, and I had any desire to read it (and I generally don't have a desire to read any of the "write-by-order" FR novels), and then used the paladin in the context of his actions from the novel, that would be using an "iconic" character. But I never do that. Sure, Elmunchkin, the Seven, and Drizzle get mentioned in my games... but never encountered unless the players declare that they are going to meet them and then spend time looking for them... and even that is not guaranteed success.
Kuje31 05-11-04, 03:02 AM	Originally posted by Sammael_the_Chosen Wut? If I look into a sourcebook and find out that the ruler of Iriaebor is a paladin of Eldath and then use him when my players go there, am I using an "iconic" character? I think not. Ah, but I don't agree. Any character in a sourcebook or a novel is a iconic character in FR. FR is filled with iconic characters and Ed has created hundreds if not thousands of them by himself. So to you, a character can only be iconic if it's in a novel?
Sarta 05-11-04, 03:50 AM	Yup, pick up any of the Volo's guides. Especially one dealing with a region your own campaign may be in. I'm willing to bet that you can find at least a handful of iconic characters going about their daily lives within a very close vicinity of your own campaign. Perhaps even at the same inn. Sarta
Lashan 05-11-04, 12:57 PM	I believe that most people refer to the "iconic" characters as the major ones listed in reoccuring novels and sourcebooks. Personally, I try my best to not use any of them at all. I use a mixture of "they never existed" and "you have never been there to find out". I usually leave NPC rulers alone, as it is too much to change things. I do leave out the Seven Sisters, as they have no place in my games. I also rip out Drizzt or any other hero that is not a ruler. I do have Elminster as a powerful wizard and sage that no one has access to and never makes apperances in the world. How has this worked out? Great! I can't stand the "iconic" characters, for the most part. I believe FR is about the game world and the history, not the Chosen of Mystra and what they do. My players enjoy it, too. Perhaps I tone down the entire good vs evil struggle or the "the world is about to be destroyed" themes. I only toss in evil groups to mess up the status qou when it suits my game world. Otherwise, life goes on like normal.
Cthulhu 05-11-04, 09:46 PM	I don't mind iconic characters making an appearance as long as the Dungeon Master understands that the iconics are sideshows...the real heros are the Player Characters. As far as the Forgotten Realms falling apart if you remove a couple of iconics...no it won't. Unless those bad guys or story elements important to iconic characters are also important to an actual campaign than they just get shuffled into the "Ignore" stack along with every other thing not important to the game. Campaign logic just states that something else is keeping the bad guys busy or occupied so they can't run amuck like Taelohn suggests. Why? Who cares? Its not important to the game your running now. Obviously if story elements of an iconic is important to the campaign than allowances will need to be made if the character is removed.
Heron_Marked_Blade 05-11-04, 10:15 PM	Note that the term "iconics" also refers to evildoers such as Szass Tam, Manshoon, Artemis Entreri, Fzoul Chembryl, Scylla Darkhope, etc. Personally, I don't think "iconic" characters should affect the "fun" factor of the FR setting. In my years of playing in the FR, I've never come across any of the powerful NPCs, and I've had a blast in every campaign. If anything, I think coming into direct contact with iconic NPCs would be somewhat anticlimactic. Players' imaginations always treat the NPCs better than a DM's representation of them ever could.
anglar 05-11-04, 10:33 PM	Now that my group is at epic levels, they're about to start tripping over iconic characters. This is due to the that they are searching them out to help raise an army to battle Thay. When we started, they were 8th level. Now they're around 22-23. This is the first time that they've even come close to meeting any of the major NPCs.
Orb of Perfidity 05-11-04, 11:33 PM	I have always tried to avoid running into the Iconics as much as possible, and despite that run into the occassional problem of having a massive-world threatening evil pop up (this is FR, they have to pop up, its like the change of seasons :) ), and have the players lose their sense of disbelief because despite the fact that they are as powerful as say Drizzt, if you go by the stats in the FRCS, they still think: "Wow this seems like the sort of thing that would attract his attention" or "Huh, this is threatening the whole of the Realms, why aren't the 7 or Elminster showing up to put it down", I come up with some reason why the 7 are busy or Elminster's in hell again or some such and we go on with the game. But for a moment there, the players suffer from what I call "star wars syndrome". IE, if the situation is this dire, and the odds this long, where are the major heroes of the setting? We had this problem when we played the SWRPG during the Rebellion Era, you knew all the real quality, galaxy shattering stuff was either done by the Iconics, or was going to be, depending on the time, and it made things hard for the players. Even though I created equally galaxy shaking events for them to deal with as well, it always came back to them feeling eclipsed by the Iconic characters of the setting. I agree, the iconics are what make FR's flavor what it is, and it wouldn't be entirely the same without them, but it also can diminish the PCs if they let it. Heck in SW, I had to go back five hundred years, find a time period there weren't any books, comics, modules, supplements, etc on and start up from there, and then, as if by magic, the players relaxed and allowed themselves to be the heroes, the most important thing in the story, which is what they always were, they just refused to see it because they were measuring themselves up against characters, who while Legendary, don't make rolls, don't have "off evenings", or any of the dozens of other things that can affect a player and by proxy his character in the course of a campaign, they just have to be dramatic. Its tough to make the players realize the Iconics can be peers eventually and that they're not gods, and the nigh invincible Iconics of FR can some times seem pretty godly. But they make damn good fiction!
mortellan 05-12-04, 02:47 AM	But the already tenous balance between good and evil would then swing quite a bit. With all the most powerful good-aligned characters destroyed, good in general could be wiped out in short order From my perspective good iconics already outnumber the evil. I advise pruning to all DMs.
Sarta 05-12-04, 04:17 AM	Originally posted by mortellan From my perspective good iconics already outnumber the evil. I advise pruning to all DMs. Assuming you are only taking into account the human iconics. There are quite a few non-human iconics that more than tip the balance toward evil. Sarta
Taelohn 05-12-04, 09:48 AM	Indeed... thinking of epic characters, the evil side is likely more powerful, overall. It's just that you don't hear about them as often.
Cherrn 05-12-04, 10:13 AM	To answer the question in the title of the thread. Yes of course the FR can be fun without the Iconic NPC's, but that's entirely up to the DM to make sure that it is :)
Mystery Man 05-12-04, 10:30 AM	It just seems like a broken record to repeat what many others have said in that if you don't like them don't use them. I like them and use them from time to time as plot devices but never as a driving force in my players lives. Or at least I hope this is so. I use more made up NPC's personally, probably a 20/1 ratio or better. I've never run and "evil" campaign and it will never be my intention to do so. I just don't get it as to why. But it seems to me that an evil party would have more trouble with the other evil sources in the Realms than the iconic "good guys". It's sort of a canned, trite, childish impulse for an evil party to go after them and should be hastily squashed by the DM.
Kilamar 05-12-04, 02:00 PM	In our last FR Campaign, which was very good, we never encountered one of the iconics. Kilamar
Lashan 05-12-04, 02:27 PM	What do you get when you take out all the iconic NPCs and world threatening events? You have a solid game world that was well thought out and detailed. The regional flavors are great and the history is bang-up good. You have a game world that is thoroughly enriching and immersive. Zhentil Keep is still Zhentil Keep no matter which evil bad guy runs the Zhentarium and the Seven Sisters don't make a smattering of difference as to the flavor of Uthgardt barbarians. You certainly don't require the NPCs, a high level of magic, world threatening events, or any of what some people consider "requirments" for a fun FR game. I've been playing that way in the FR since the original boxed set and never had a problem that way. Oh, and my players love it.
Derren S. 05-12-04, 02:49 PM	You aren't removing the iconics, you are only replacing them with not so well known NPCs of similliar power. The balance of power in the FR is very fragile. When you remove one high level npc the other side has the upper hand. So you have to remove a whole lot of NPCs to keep it balanced. Of course, if your game doesn't adress this issue everything is fine.
Myst_the_Moonscout 05-12-04, 03:20 PM	I personally don't see why NPC's need to be removed at all. If they aren't wanted in a campaign, don't put them in. I think that for the most part people overestimate an NPC's sphere of influence. The Simbul is a good example. If players don't go to Algarond, what does she matter? I am a player, not a DM and I try and keep within the "player knowledge" vs "character knowledge" thing. If you ask my ranger from the Silver Marches about Drizzt, she would say she has *heard* of him, but ask my Sembian cleric and he'd wonder who on earth you were talking about...Driz-zit? He's some elf you say?
Straploknight 05-12-04, 07:31 PM	yes, iconic npc's aren't the salt and pepper of the realms, they are more like paprika.
Pike 05-12-04, 08:24 PM	I never use the iconic characters in my games. Actually, I try to stay away from well developed regions of the Realms as well. It keeps the 'that's not what happened in the books' factor to a minimum, and gives me a little more room to move as a DM. Even so, I still run the Realms exclusivley. BTW: Hi! I'm new here.
Heron_Marked_Blade 05-12-04, 10:22 PM	Originally posted by Pike BTW: Hi! I'm new here. Hi! Welcome to the FR boards, where Elminster's fireballs are piddly firecrackers compared to the heat we generate! :D
WizO_BigSister 05-13-04, 09:48 PM	Tch tch tch guys ... off topic posts are spam and spam is BAD! Seriously please keep the chat about yourselves off these boards.