Cautiously Optimistic about 4E [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cautiously Optimistic about 4E [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Charles Phipps
10-14-07, 12:57 AM On my end, I'm willing to give Richard Baker a try in how they're going to handle the business of the 100 year Time skip. Is it going to be a majorly changed setting? I think it'll probably be definitely so in several areas.

I'll share some opinions before I get onboard here and everyone starts wondering. My first campaign setting, after a failed homebrew, was Forgotten Realms. I knew about Dragonlance and was going to play in it at the tender age of twelve but instead chose to buy something called The Avatar Trilogy.

Now, my work was a disaster then but I really enjoyed the novels. I still liked the Dragonlance novels more but I absolutely adored Elminster and eventually came to love Drizzt Do'Urden as well. That was fifteen years ago and my tastes as a gamer have significantly matured since then.

Nevertheless, 2nd Edition Realms was my Forgotten Realms and it has left the strongest impression in my mind. The pettiness of the gods, the "main villain" status of the god Cyric, the slowly strengthening status of Xvim, and the fact that Bane was this terrifying evil everyone kept trying to bring back.

About 7 years ago, I got to run the Realms the way I always wanted to but never really had the skill to (I was twenty then). Since then, it's been love ever since with my players having experienced the joys of heroically battling through the Time of Troubles and slaying the gods themselves.

Unfortunately, it was also the time that I became aquainted with fandom. My experience was less than frutiful with them because everything I liked as the *real* Realms was still being derided a decade later as the Biggest Mistake EverTM.

I, like so many other gamers, was cautious about something called Dungeons and Dragons 3E. The Realms had become a bit tiresome by this point as we had stacks and stacks of sourcebooks but no big picture. I kept my fingers crossed though.

In the end, my expectations were exceeded beyond my wildest dreams. I hated the Shades but they were wonderful in 3E, Cormyr had returned to sensibility, and the Zhents were once again fearsome rather than the incompetent G.I. Cobra they'd become. Cyric's church was treated like the biggest gang of Satanic Church/Chick villains that had ever been created but nothings perfect.

Now it's another seven years later and we're getting 4E.

We know only a very little. Helm's gone, Kara-Tur seems actually integrated into the setting, even if Maztica and Zakara aren't quite yet, Mystra is dead, and the gods are losing a lot of their smaller members. There's also hints that we could lose Thay of all places (They're the Red Wizards man! They can't die!). Elminster and Drizzt are there but that's only because one is the Realms Logo and the other is the source of 90% of all Realms money (I'm debating whether or not to get the scimitars).

So, needless to say, I'm apprehensive. I jumped into Eberron, but as soon as there was whiffs of a new Realms, I was back here. Yet, we all recall what happened to Dark Sun and Planescape right? It is VERY possible to destroy a setting completely by writers changing everything.

On the other hand, I remember Ravenloft under White Wolf being very good. The Guide to Realms History has given me a good impression of the authors and I'm willing to see how it turns out.

Still, I gotta wonder, in 10 years when 5E comes out---how many new players will be upset with "Their" realms being tampered with?

How about you?
Lord Karsus
10-14-07, 01:30 AM -It's been confirmed that there will be a 100 year time increase?
Charles Phipps
10-14-07, 01:36 AM I'm going with the assumption there is. At the very least that Drizzt's time skip forward is legitimate. I don't think the Spell plague will actually be RPGed but instead be like the Fall of Myth Drannor.

An event that was disastrous and in the distant past.
johnkretzer
10-14-07, 02:27 AM The thing I have always like best was that we the players and DM decided what was the big picture.

The changes you mentioned could be changed, glossed over, or just the 'didn't happen in my Realms' and the souce books were still useful because they kept the basic frame work.

The Realms have always been to me atleast our Realms...in that it was something that you could make your own. Now it seems to be THEIR Reams.

I just don't get how these changes are a good thing.

But like I have said I hope you enjoy these new Realms. Me I am sticking with what I enjoy, which seems to be very counter to what the designers enjoy...and I'll admit maybe what the majority of Realms fans enjoy.(Though I think that it isn't a majority personaly).
Reneshat
10-14-07, 06:14 AM Cautiously optimistic? CAUTIOUSLY OPTIMISTIC!?!?!?!? You fool, don't you realize that 4ed Realms is on the of 7 signs of the Apocalypse? It's right after Britney's divorce and right before Al Gore getting the Nobel Peace Prize (thank God that will never happen.) Really, you should pay more attention to what people are saying on these boards, and less attention to your own opinions on the matter. Before you know it, you might let up on Rich Baker, and who knows what will happen then.

Rich Baker is really, really mean to babies.
Lord Karsus
10-14-07, 10:58 AM -Ren, it just dawned on me that you were being sarcastic. I was about to mention how Brittany Spears did get divourced, and how Al Gore did win the Nobel Peace Prize...Good thing I realized, 'cause I'd look silly if I didn't.
Meldread
10-14-07, 11:20 AM Lord Karsus-

You see? It's already too late. The apocalypse is upon us!

---

Charles-

I am also cautiously optimistic. I even like some of the changes. They certainly have renewed my interest in the setting and I can't wait until the 4E FRCS is in print. Some of the other changes I am not a huge fan of... but they seem mostly cosmetic. I can fix those myself.
Lord Karsus
10-14-07, 03:23 PM Lord Karsus-

You see? It's already too late. The apocalypse is upon us!

-Great. Just great.
Shadojack
10-14-07, 06:31 PM Since the Cubs did not win the World Series, the End Times have been delayed for at least another year.

Personally I won't be forking over any more of my money on a new edition of an old game. My realmes are just that, mine. Not going to change anything just because some marketing guys need an excuse to correct all the crap they have been putting out for so many years.
Shiftkitty
10-14-07, 07:55 PM I'm not being cautiously optimistic. I'm being blatantly optimistic. I love to watch this game evolve, especially since we're not required to play it according to the rules at all. They were my Realms when I first bought that old grey box, they'll be my Realms when they stick me in the ground (hopefully with a d20 in my hand). They gave it to us when they published it. If they want it back, too bad. They can write up what they want to about it. We'll just take the parts we like.

I have heard ten year skip AND 100 year skip. I don't know which to believe, but I'm looking forward to it regardless. I have contingency plans for migrating my player's favored characters (as well as my own), so rather than grouse or worry about something I haven't even seen yet and that has no effect on my physical health and well-being, I say bring it on. Test my imagination if you must, but let the Game live on.
18DELTA
10-14-07, 09:50 PM I am on the wait and see fence. I just got tired of all the:rant: :banghead: :uh-huh: :bored: thats been going on.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
10-16-07, 09:54 PM I'm not cautiously optimistic, and I don't feel that I have to be. That is because I dislike the changes that I do know about, and I don't plan to incorporate them into *my* Realms.

But at the same time, I'm not losing sleep over this, either. I'm not laying awake in bed at night thinking up ways to get revenge on Rich Baker, et al. I've simply decided that 4E Realms is unlikely to be for me.
Shiftkitty
10-17-07, 10:15 AM Right on. I'm sure there will be things that we'll like, and things that we don't. Like I said, we get to pick and choose. We aren't "stuck" with anything. All we have to do is remember that if we're sitting at someone else's table that it's the world according to their rules.
Alediran
10-17-07, 10:31 AM Right on. I'm sure there will be things that we'll like, and things that we don't. Like I said, we get to pick and choose. We aren't "stuck" with anything. All we have to do is remember that if we're sitting at someone else's table that it's the world according to their rules.

We are stuck with anything they take out.
Shiftkitty
10-17-07, 03:19 PM I hold that we aren't stuck with anything. If they take it out but you like it, leave it in and write around it. The only way you're stuck is if you want to play a strictly canon game, but then that becomes your choice to do so. They made it pretty clear in many core book versions that you are free to discard anything that doesn't fit your game. FR answers to the core rules, as I see it.

I do agree that they shouldn't be doing such big sweeping changes as I've heard rumor of all at once, strictly out of sympathy for those who want to continue playing canon but don't want major factors in their campaigns so upset. From a marketting standpoint, I'm not sure it's such a good idea to force a major upheaval. They may have wanted to some surveys of a good mixture of long-time players and relative newbies. I'm not sure if they did, but I doubt it. I don't play strictly canon, so I would have not voted, but those who do should have had some say and then just accepted the voice of the majority.

Meh, but what do I know about the inner workings of WOTC? They may still have something up their sleeves.
MarkusTay63
10-17-07, 03:37 PM I am VERY optimstic about the 4e rules, and NEVER said I wasn't. :cool:

It's only the setting I fear for. :rolleyes:
Charles Phipps
10-17-07, 04:00 PM Simple.

You don't buy books where stuff stays the same.

It's simple economics.
MerrikCale
10-17-07, 11:04 PM But at the same time, I'm not losing sleep over this, either. I'm not laying awake in bed at night thinking up ways to get revenge on Rich Baker, et al.

you're not?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
10-18-07, 10:05 AM you're not?

Nope. I've sure ranted about Rich's work plenty of times, but I have nothing against him as a person. Same goes for pretty much everyone else on the design team--I may seriously disagree with their ideas for the Realms, and even go so far as to think of them as ignorant about how the Realms are supposed to work, but at the end of the day they are just people, and there are more important things in life.
Stigger
10-18-07, 10:21 AM I'm losing sleep over this... either that or I'm having another bout of insomnia, one of the two. I'll just take the easy way out, blame the 4e Realms team, and start looking in the yellow pages for Assassins R' Us nearest outlet... should be one at a local strip mall somewhere... ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
10-18-07, 10:25 AM I'm losing sleep over this... either that or I'm having another bout of insomnia, one of the two. I'll just take the easy way out, blame the 4e Realms team, and start looking in the yellow pages for Assassins R' Us nearest outlet... should be one at a local strip mall somewhere... ;)

Heh! I might do that, too, if I get bored or something.
MerrikCale
10-18-07, 09:35 PM but at the end of the day they are just people,

hmmmm...perhaps

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Charles Phipps 10-14-07, 12:57 AM	On my end, I'm willing to give Richard Baker a try in how they're going to handle the business of the 100 year Time skip. Is it going to be a majorly changed setting? I think it'll probably be definitely so in several areas. I'll share some opinions before I get onboard here and everyone starts wondering. My first campaign setting, after a failed homebrew, was Forgotten Realms. I knew about Dragonlance and was going to play in it at the tender age of twelve but instead chose to buy something called The Avatar Trilogy. Now, my work was a disaster then but I really enjoyed the novels. I still liked the Dragonlance novels more but I absolutely adored Elminster and eventually came to love Drizzt Do'Urden as well. That was fifteen years ago and my tastes as a gamer have significantly matured since then. Nevertheless, 2nd Edition Realms was my Forgotten Realms and it has left the strongest impression in my mind. The pettiness of the gods, the "main villain" status of the god Cyric, the slowly strengthening status of Xvim, and the fact that Bane was this terrifying evil everyone kept trying to bring back. About 7 years ago, I got to run the Realms the way I always wanted to but never really had the skill to (I was twenty then). Since then, it's been love ever since with my players having experienced the joys of heroically battling through the Time of Troubles and slaying the gods themselves. Unfortunately, it was also the time that I became aquainted with fandom. My experience was less than frutiful with them because everything I liked as the real Realms was still being derided a decade later as the Biggest Mistake EverTM. I, like so many other gamers, was cautious about something called Dungeons and Dragons 3E. The Realms had become a bit tiresome by this point as we had stacks and stacks of sourcebooks but no big picture. I kept my fingers crossed though. In the end, my expectations were exceeded beyond my wildest dreams. I hated the Shades but they were wonderful in 3E, Cormyr had returned to sensibility, and the Zhents were once again fearsome rather than the incompetent G.I. Cobra they'd become. Cyric's church was treated like the biggest gang of Satanic Church/Chick villains that had ever been created but nothings perfect. Now it's another seven years later and we're getting 4E. We know only a very little. Helm's gone, Kara-Tur seems actually integrated into the setting, even if Maztica and Zakara aren't quite yet, Mystra is dead, and the gods are losing a lot of their smaller members. There's also hints that we could lose Thay of all places (They're the Red Wizards man! They can't die!). Elminster and Drizzt are there but that's only because one is the Realms Logo and the other is the source of 90% of all Realms money (I'm debating whether or not to get the scimitars). So, needless to say, I'm apprehensive. I jumped into Eberron, but as soon as there was whiffs of a new Realms, I was back here. Yet, we all recall what happened to Dark Sun and Planescape right? It is VERY possible to destroy a setting completely by writers changing everything. On the other hand, I remember Ravenloft under White Wolf being very good. The Guide to Realms History has given me a good impression of the authors and I'm willing to see how it turns out. Still, I gotta wonder, in 10 years when 5E comes out---how many new players will be upset with "Their" realms being tampered with? How about you?
Lord Karsus 10-14-07, 01:30 AM	-It's been confirmed that there will be a 100 year time increase?
Charles Phipps 10-14-07, 01:36 AM	I'm going with the assumption there is. At the very least that Drizzt's time skip forward is legitimate. I don't think the Spell plague will actually be RPGed but instead be like the Fall of Myth Drannor. An event that was disastrous and in the distant past.
johnkretzer 10-14-07, 02:27 AM	The thing I have always like best was that we the players and DM decided what was the big picture. The changes you mentioned could be changed, glossed over, or just the 'didn't happen in my Realms' and the souce books were still useful because they kept the basic frame work. The Realms have always been to me atleast our Realms...in that it was something that you could make your own. Now it seems to be THEIR Reams. I just don't get how these changes are a good thing. But like I have said I hope you enjoy these new Realms. Me I am sticking with what I enjoy, which seems to be very counter to what the designers enjoy...and I'll admit maybe what the majority of Realms fans enjoy.(Though I think that it isn't a majority personaly).
Reneshat 10-14-07, 06:14 AM	Cautiously optimistic? CAUTIOUSLY OPTIMISTIC!?!?!?!? You fool, don't you realize that 4ed Realms is on the of 7 signs of the Apocalypse? It's right after Britney's divorce and right before Al Gore getting the Nobel Peace Prize (thank God that will never happen.) Really, you should pay more attention to what people are saying on these boards, and less attention to your own opinions on the matter. Before you know it, you might let up on Rich Baker, and who knows what will happen then. Rich Baker is really, really mean to babies.
Lord Karsus 10-14-07, 10:58 AM	-Ren, it just dawned on me that you were being sarcastic. I was about to mention how Brittany Spears did get divourced, and how Al Gore did win the Nobel Peace Prize...Good thing I realized, 'cause I'd look silly if I didn't.
Meldread 10-14-07, 11:20 AM	Lord Karsus- You see? It's already too late. The apocalypse is upon us! --- Charles- I am also cautiously optimistic. I even like some of the changes. They certainly have renewed my interest in the setting and I can't wait until the 4E FRCS is in print. Some of the other changes I am not a huge fan of... but they seem mostly cosmetic. I can fix those myself.
Lord Karsus 10-14-07, 03:23 PM	Lord Karsus- You see? It's already too late. The apocalypse is upon us! -Great. Just great.
Shadojack 10-14-07, 06:31 PM	Since the Cubs did not win the World Series, the End Times have been delayed for at least another year. Personally I won't be forking over any more of my money on a new edition of an old game. My realmes are just that, mine. Not going to change anything just because some marketing guys need an excuse to correct all the crap they have been putting out for so many years.
Shiftkitty 10-14-07, 07:55 PM	I'm not being cautiously optimistic. I'm being blatantly optimistic. I love to watch this game evolve, especially since we're not required to play it according to the rules at all. They were my Realms when I first bought that old grey box, they'll be my Realms when they stick me in the ground (hopefully with a d20 in my hand). They gave it to us when they published it. If they want it back, too bad. They can write up what they want to about it. We'll just take the parts we like. I have heard ten year skip AND 100 year skip. I don't know which to believe, but I'm looking forward to it regardless. I have contingency plans for migrating my player's favored characters (as well as my own), so rather than grouse or worry about something I haven't even seen yet and that has no effect on my physical health and well-being, I say bring it on. Test my imagination if you must, but let the Game live on.
18DELTA 10-14-07, 09:50 PM	I am on the wait and see fence. I just got tired of all the:rant: :banghead: :uh-huh: :bored: thats been going on.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-16-07, 09:54 PM	I'm not cautiously optimistic, and I don't feel that I have to be. That is because I dislike the changes that I do know about, and I don't plan to incorporate them into my Realms. But at the same time, I'm not losing sleep over this, either. I'm not laying awake in bed at night thinking up ways to get revenge on Rich Baker, et al. I've simply decided that 4E Realms is unlikely to be for me.
Shiftkitty 10-17-07, 10:15 AM	Right on. I'm sure there will be things that we'll like, and things that we don't. Like I said, we get to pick and choose. We aren't "stuck" with anything. All we have to do is remember that if we're sitting at someone else's table that it's the world according to their rules.
Alediran 10-17-07, 10:31 AM	Right on. I'm sure there will be things that we'll like, and things that we don't. Like I said, we get to pick and choose. We aren't "stuck" with anything. All we have to do is remember that if we're sitting at someone else's table that it's the world according to their rules. We are stuck with anything they take out.
Shiftkitty 10-17-07, 03:19 PM	I hold that we aren't stuck with anything. If they take it out but you like it, leave it in and write around it. The only way you're stuck is if you want to play a strictly canon game, but then that becomes your choice to do so. They made it pretty clear in many core book versions that you are free to discard anything that doesn't fit your game. FR answers to the core rules, as I see it. I do agree that they shouldn't be doing such big sweeping changes as I've heard rumor of all at once, strictly out of sympathy for those who want to continue playing canon but don't want major factors in their campaigns so upset. From a marketting standpoint, I'm not sure it's such a good idea to force a major upheaval. They may have wanted to some surveys of a good mixture of long-time players and relative newbies. I'm not sure if they did, but I doubt it. I don't play strictly canon, so I would have not voted, but those who do should have had some say and then just accepted the voice of the majority. Meh, but what do I know about the inner workings of WOTC? They may still have something up their sleeves.
MarkusTay63 10-17-07, 03:37 PM	I am VERY optimstic about the 4e rules, and NEVER said I wasn't. :cool: It's only the setting I fear for. :rolleyes:
Charles Phipps 10-17-07, 04:00 PM	Simple. You don't buy books where stuff stays the same. It's simple economics.
MerrikCale 10-17-07, 11:04 PM	But at the same time, I'm not losing sleep over this, either. I'm not laying awake in bed at night thinking up ways to get revenge on Rich Baker, et al. you're not?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-18-07, 10:05 AM	you're not? Nope. I've sure ranted about Rich's work plenty of times, but I have nothing against him as a person. Same goes for pretty much everyone else on the design team--I may seriously disagree with their ideas for the Realms, and even go so far as to think of them as ignorant about how the Realms are supposed to work, but at the end of the day they are just people, and there are more important things in life.
Stigger 10-18-07, 10:21 AM	I'm losing sleep over this... either that or I'm having another bout of insomnia, one of the two. I'll just take the easy way out, blame the 4e Realms team, and start looking in the yellow pages for Assassins R' Us nearest outlet... should be one at a local strip mall somewhere... ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-18-07, 10:25 AM	I'm losing sleep over this... either that or I'm having another bout of insomnia, one of the two. I'll just take the easy way out, blame the 4e Realms team, and start looking in the yellow pages for Assassins R' Us nearest outlet... should be one at a local strip mall somewhere... ;) Heh! I might do that, too, if I get bored or something.
MerrikCale 10-18-07, 09:35 PM	but at the end of the day they are just people, hmmmm...perhaps