Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dargoth 05-04-05, 05:25 AM	According to Pazio Champions of Ruin will ship on May 5th
Tempus665 05-04-05, 08:27 AM	This will be such a tantalizing thread! :( :)
Bocklin 05-04-05, 08:58 AM	According to the website where I ordered it (in Germany), it will ship on the 13th. But count me on for this thread! Hope that the first ones to get their copy will not be so busy that they can't post a couple of spoilers... :) Bocklin
Nyat 05-04-05, 10:28 AM	It ships tomorrow? :drool: Perfect, I have nothing to do after school tomorrow anyway.
Wil_Upchurch 05-05-05, 07:12 PM	The worst part of these threads is the fact that y'all will have yours before I have mine. :D
Dargoth 05-05-05, 08:25 PM	The worst part of these threads is the fact that y'all will have yours before I have mine. :D Hey Wil Seeing as how RichB has released the Contents page for CoR, would you be willing to tell us which parts are yours? PS Game designer Ed Bonny says its out and he has a copy he got it from a FLG in Denville, NJ
Wil_Upchurch 05-05-05, 08:30 PM	Hey Wil Seeing as how RichB has released the Contents page for CoR, would you be willing to tell us which parts are yours? That's like asking the Wizard to come out from behind the curtain! What if you don't like my parts? What if I'm too ugly to go to the prom? What if...oops, wrong dream. :) Is that kind of info generally released by authors on the board? I'm no expert on the etiquette. :)
Dargoth 05-05-05, 08:32 PM	Yeah EricB and George K both owned up to there stuff in LEOF so it should be ok By the way have you poped over to Candlekeep.com before?
Gray Richardson 05-05-05, 09:06 PM	I just bought a copy from my local game shop here in Austin. Haven't read much yet. Looks great! :D
Freakboy 05-05-05, 09:14 PM	I just bought a copy from my local game shop here in Austin. Haven't read much yet. Looks great! :D Are there rules for initiates of Lolth?
Wil_Upchurch 05-05-05, 10:12 PM	I just bought a copy from my local game shop here in Austin. Haven't read much yet. Looks great! :D Maybe I'll have to run up to Dragon's Lair and take a look. :)
Patrakis 05-05-05, 10:17 PM	There is a section on initiates feats but nothing on Lolth. The faits that are covered are: Initiate of Ghaunadaur; Initiate of Gruumsh; Initiate of Kossuth; Initiate of Loviatar; Initiate of Shar; Initiate of Varae. Pat
Gray Richardson 05-05-05, 10:19 PM	Maybe I'll have to run up to Dragon's Lair and take a look. :)Try Thor's Hammer, they are open until midnight. ;)
Wil_Upchurch 05-05-05, 10:31 PM	Yeah EricB and George K both owned up to there stuff in LEOF so it should be ok By the way have you poped over to Candlekeep.com before? Dargoth, I visited there way back when as we were working on the Silverymoon netbook, but haven't been there lately...I hear there's been some big changes. In any case, looking at the ToC, I see the following sections that I worked on or wrote: CHAPTER 1: RACES Draegloth Extaminaar Krinth CHAPTER 2: TOOLS OF EVIL Feats (partial) New Spells (partial) Magic Items (partial) CHAPTER 3: PRESTIGE CLASSES Black Blood Cultist Night Mask Deathbringer Shade Hunter Thayan Gladiator Vengeance Knight CHAPTER 4: EVIL ORGANIZATIONS Cult of the Dragon Cults of the Moon Monks of the Dark Moon Sharran Cells The Unworthy of Ilsensine Zhentarim CHAPTER 5: EVIL PLACES Evil Nodes Shadow Weave Nodes Shrines Other Evil Sites CHAPTER 6: ENCOUNTERS WITH EVIL The Tone of Your Game What the Players Want Why Run an Evil Game? Enemies and Allies Nine ready-to-use villains, all statted up, with backstories and suggestions for use. CHAPTER 7: CHAMPIONS OF EVIL Dendar the Night Serpent Caverns of the Serpent Mother Kezef the Chaos Hound The Death Shallows Ityak-Ortheel, the Elf Eater
Wil_Upchurch 05-05-05, 10:34 PM	Try Thor's Hammer, they are open until midnight. ;) And go up North!??! :)
Gray Richardson 05-05-05, 10:50 PM	Oh, a South Austinite are you? Well, the North isn't so bad. We have Texpresso (best coffee in the world!), and two Alamo Drafthouses (although, you just got your own down on South Lamar) and all the best Dim Sum (though Marco Polo is pretty awesome!) And of course, we have Champions of Ruin! ;)
Wil_Upchurch 05-05-05, 11:15 PM	Oh, a South Austinite are you? Well, the North isn't so bad. We have Texpresso (best coffee in the world!), and two Alamo Drafthouses (although, you just got your own down on South Lamar) and all the best Dim Sum (though Marco Polo is pretty awesome!) And of course, we have Champions of Ruin! ;) Well, I do love Dim Sum. :) I might be moving up north off 183 soon, so I'll be more regular around Thor's Hammer if I do.
Gray Richardson 05-05-05, 11:43 PM	Well, I do love Dim Sum. :) I might be moving up north off 183 soon, so I'll be more regular around Thor's Hammer if I do.Cool beans! Esteemed authors are always a welcome edition to the neighborhood! ;)
Dargoth 05-06-05, 03:41 AM	Thanks Wil Feel free to drop in over at Candlekeep EricB and George K are regular visitors and we even have a pipeline to Ed Greenwood! By the way any word on when your next FR dungeon module will be published? and will it feature material from CoR?
Wil_Upchurch 05-06-05, 11:28 AM	Thanks Wil Feel free to drop in over at Candlekeep EricB and George K are regular visitors and we even have a pipeline to Ed Greenwood! By the way any word on when your next FR dungeon module will be published? and will it feature material from CoR? I have word, but of course can't pass it along. :) I asked if they wanted me to do a CoR release but got no response. It doesn't have anything from CoR in it, but there's definitely some cool evil. :) It's a sequel of sorts to Forest of Blood.
Ardashir 05-06-05, 03:06 PM	This book already sounds great. But how does the Black Blood Cultist differ from the PrC given in _Player's Guide to Faerun_? Or is this a reworking?
Faraer 05-06-05, 03:44 PM	Wil, Realms designers often volunteer which parts they worked on or say when asked. The alternative leaves authors as a semi-anonymous semi-interchangeable design pool. In an industry which has often shortchanged authors by not crediting them prominently, sometimes leaving their names off covers, I think it's essential that people know who wrote what so that they can rightly associate work they like with the person responsible for it, rather than misattribute their feelings to companies or trademarks. The role of developers and editors in RPG books makes this less simple, I know.
Kuje31 05-06-05, 04:02 PM	I grabbed my copy. :)
JWSIII 05-07-05, 01:41 AM	Can someone please tell me what CR malkazid and Bazim-Gorag are? Shemeska's question about CR 26 Elder Evils has me worried that the enemies have all been de-epiced for some reason...
FriendOfReligion 05-07-05, 02:41 AM	I grabbed my copy. :) Expostulate upon its merits and faults for the benefit of us poor scholars who can't even get our kith and kin to buy anything which is on our Amazon Wish Lists! As the song says, "Tell me more, tell me more!"
Bocklin 05-07-05, 06:32 AM	The faiths that are covered are: Initiate of Ghaunadaur; Initiate of Gruumsh; Initiate of Kossuth; Initiate of Loviatar; Initiate of Shar; Initiate of Varae. Pat Initiate of Loviatar again? Is it a reprint from Shining South? And who is Varae anyway? Thanks for sharing bits and pieces with us who are still waiting for our copy! ;) Bocklin
Tempus665 05-07-05, 07:48 AM	Initiate of Loviatar again? Is it a reprint from Shining South? It's the same. (As you can see here (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050505b&page=4). Take a look at the feat excerpt from CoR.) And who is Varae anyway? A serpentgod, now an aspect of Sseth. A large chunk of Varae worshippers were transformed into ophidians. (Serpent Kingdoms has more info on this deity.)
Dargoth 05-07-05, 09:53 AM	I am suprised that we got one Initiate featfor Ghaunadaur but not one for Lolth
Gray Richardson 05-07-05, 11:28 AM	When they were writing Champions of Ruin they asked Lolth about an initiate feat. But she remained silent on the issue.
Kuje31 05-07-05, 11:51 AM	Can someone please tell me what CR malkazid and Bazim-Gorag are? Shemeska's question about CR 26 Elder Evils has me worried that the enemies have all been de-epiced for some reason... Bazim-Gorag: CR 21 Malkizid: CR 27
Kuje31 05-07-05, 11:57 AM	Expostulate upon its merits and faults for the benefit of us poor scholars who can't even get our kith and kin to buy anything which is on our Amazon Wish Lists! As the song says, "Tell me more, tell me more!" My personal view and others will not agree with me, of course. The philosophies of evil section could be of some use but I'd like it to be a bit longer. 28 pages of prestige classes is a bit much. Yes they include NPC's and lore on how to fit them into the Realms but it's still a bit much. The evil items chapter, 4 pages, could have been a little larger. Spells I haven't really looked through but they to could have been a little larger. The organizations are nice but they made some changes to the ones that existed in the old lore and well I still prefer the old lore. I.E. they removed some NPC's that were leaders of the elven hunting human group and I don't think they explained what happened to those NPC's. The major evils seemed to be okay except for the Elder Evils. A deity can smack these around if you use the canon stats. I'd add some divine powers to them! The evil places chapter looks useful though. The paper seems to be the same paper they used in Lords of Madness and so for barely 160 page book 30 bucks seems a little pricey. But it's FR and well of course I'll buy them since I love this setting. So WOTC has another evil book out but it's nice and all but, like the BOVD, it seems lacking to me. :)
Gray Richardson 05-07-05, 12:01 PM	Can someone please tell me what CR malkazid and Bazim-Gorag are? Shemeska's question about CR 26 Elder Evils has me worried that the enemies have all been de-epiced for some reason...They are all epic. Epic is anything over CR 20. The stats are in-line with the stats for other fiend lords such as those found in Book of Vile Darkness. Some people may wish the stats were higher, but WotC has been fairly consistent with their stats--at least with respect to the fiend lords.
msatran 05-07-05, 12:28 PM	This book....unlike many of the previous FR books, sticks in my gullet in mechanical ways I will now digress on. Justice of Weald and Woe is earth-shatteringly broken. First of all, the class grants a set of truly amazing abilities to...the Eldreth Veluuthra, an organization that has maybe a total of 135 members. So how many people with this PRC are there? Maybe four? And if there are more members of the Eldreth Veluuthra out there, a little more detail on cell structure in the book would be nice. I love all the detail, but I'll be honest. We need more nationbooks about individual nations that are not three to five nation lumpy. Instead of a sourcebook that encompasses the entire Shining South, this book should have been a book on Dambrath, a Book on Halruaa, a book on Channath Vale, etc. Quite frankly, 160 pages on Waterdeep is not enough for me. I would pay twice as much for a sourcebook that actually had more details. A converted, nine level Undermountain Box, done similarly to that World's Largest Dungeon sourcebook? I would kill for that book. The problem is...my players wouldn't. I realize that Wizards is running a business, but what these books really need is a section like: What the Players Know, and separate information for the DM if the books remain in the current format. Nothing torques me off more than running eight to ten campaigns in the same gameworld and having a book come out five years later that says "Sorry, you got everything wrong about Organization X, Y, or Z in the Realms. Have a nice day, please change the veins in your neck." Make no mistake, I love the Realms, but I think I need more political detail, more social information, more culture and religion specific PRCs, and less about what happened in the past. THAT's the stuff your DM should be making up, because it's the "Forgotten" Realms. There is literally so much history to this world right now that a lot of the things that we used to consider Mysteries for the DM to Explore have now become demystified, which is why I consider the City of Shade to be one of the biggest mistakes ever to grace Anauroch, or the Realms in general.: Sarrukh, Netheril, the ancient Serpent Kingdoms, all of this stuff is actually TOO detailed. I genuinely liked it better when people didn't have ready access to all of this information and the DM had to make it up. What's the point of exploring ancient Netherese Ruins to find out what life might have been like back then when you can simply corral a few shade explorers in a tavern in a state that isn't opposed to the evil Netherese shadowmancers, and ask them? Keep in mind, you're not asking them for any particularly useful information, you're just asking them for information like "What is a day in the life of a typical citizen like?" These ancient and mysterious civilizations should have remained ancient and mysterious, from the Magelords of Athalantar to the Sharn and the Phaerimm. I know that people want games that are more powerful and more high fantasy, but for me, it's the stories about people that make this world tick, and I'm concerned that the Realms is really moving away from that.
Ardashir 05-07-05, 12:31 PM	When they were writing Champions of Ruin they asked Lolth about an initiate feat. But she remained silent on the issue. Well, she's feeling chatty again now, so maybe this time they'll get a response. Hopefully it will be something other than, "Die, worthless iblith!"
Kuje31 05-07-05, 12:36 PM	I know that people want games that are more powerful and more high fantasy, but for me, it's the stories about people that make this world tick, and I'm concerned that the Realms is really moving away from that. Echoes this. This is FR but it's hard to find it now. :(
Yokinobu 05-07-05, 01:37 PM	The Slaad Lord has the same CR as a White Slaad. That doesn't suck or anything....yeah.
Wil_Upchurch 05-07-05, 04:21 PM	The Slaad Lord has the same CR as a White Slaad. That kinda sucks. Why does that suck? Disclaimer: I didn't write the slaad lord, I'm just really curious why the relative CRs matters in the eyes of the poster. :)
Tempus665 05-07-05, 04:25 PM	I think it's because a lot of these evil guys have been around for quite a while, and since CR indicates what level party is needed to battle and be the victor over these critters, many people expected a higher CR. (The CR they're at now isn't really that high for games that involve the Epic Level Handbook.) :)
Wil_Upchurch 05-07-05, 06:14 PM	I think it's because a lot of these evil guys have been around for quite a while, and since CR indicates what level party is needed to battle and be the victor over these critters, many people expected a higher CR. (The CR they're at now isn't really that high for games that involve the Epic Level Handbook.) :) True enough, but what would happen if they were all some super godawful high CRs? Then they'd be useless except as window dressing to the 95% of games out there that don't play into epic levels. Putting these guys at CR 21-27 (note that this is just an example, I'm not saying there's some design rule to put them in this range) let's them be super powerful creatures that just might be in range of a 19th or 20th level party, were they super prepared. I guess there could be some "Timmy" value to giving a book full of epic-level creatures, but I don't think it's a practical design decision. :)
Myssa Rei 05-07-05, 10:29 PM	CRs aren't all that relevant, considering the fact that the average player won't even encounter these beings in their lifetimes. These are things of myth and legend, after all... Their power easily boggles the minds of (most) mortals. I have to admit, compared to the nasties depicted in the Epic-level handbook, they might seem tame. However, taken from the perspective of your everyday adventurer in Faerun, those depicted are downright terrifying.
Yokinobu 05-07-05, 11:45 PM	I apologize for my previous post. I should've realized that someone who had a hand in the book might be reading this thread. It's just that it seems that a unique slaad lord should be above and beyond the second most powerful type of slaad.
Nyat 05-07-05, 11:51 PM	I just find it silly that Mask actually runs away from a CR 21 Kezef. Why doesn't he just stab it in the face repeatedly and be done with it? I just like to see internal consistancy with stuff, and when the gods are afraid of something they could slap around while sleeping I feel like something is wrong. At the very least I think the Elder Evils should be stronger than the non-diefic NPCs of the realms, like the chosen (these are the Elder Evils for crying out loud!). How is Dendar supposed to end the world if she gets taken out by the chosen of Mystra? As a side note, Epic Lichs just became a lot scarier with Aumvor's Fragmented Phylactery. Good thing Szass Tam doesn't have epic casting.
Wil_Upchurch 05-08-05, 12:56 AM	I apologize for my previous post. I should've realized that someone who had a hand in the book might be reading this thread. It's just that it seems that a unique slaad lord should be above and beyond the second most powerful type of slaad. No need to apologize, I thought you started an interesting discussion, so I jumped in. :) Like I said, I had no hand in crafting the slaad lord, I just don't think he necessarily has to be more powerful. I mean, kings aren't the highest-CR creatures in their realms...power comes from more than that. I certainly understand the desire to have some of these great evils be jaw-droppingly powerful...it's just so cool! I think for the most part, though, that they are powerful enough to be cool and also be useful. At least a high-level group could drive off Kezef or the Elf Eater, but they'd still be hard-pressed to destroy them outright. In regards to Mask, keep in mind that power of these magnitudes is more than just stats. Kezef might have some specific effect on Mask that the god fears, perhaps it has to do with dreams, since we know Mask often contacts his minions in that way. Besides, Mask doesn't have Champions of Ruin...how does he know how powerful Kezef really is? :) The Chaos Hound *did* bite off Tyr's hand, eh? That should be enough for a god to want to stay away...gods have a lot to lose should they be wrong about the power level of an opponent.
WizO_BigSister 05-08-05, 01:46 AM	Thanks for the apology Yokinobu. We welcome your opinions on the new books, but it does help if you avoid sarcasm and very negative comments. We do want to keep at least some of the game designers reading these forums, and these threads are shown to the development team. Actually saying why you think something sucked, and how you would improve it is much more useful. I am glad to see that's where this discussion has headed.
Sammael_the_Chosen 05-08-05, 02:25 AM	True enough, but what would happen if they were all some super godawful high CRs? Then they'd be useless except as window dressing to the 95% of games out there that don't play into epic levels. Putting these guys at CR 21-27 (note that this is just an example, I'm not saying there's some design rule to put them in this range) let's them be super powerful creatures that just might be in range of a 19th or 20th level party, were they super prepared. I guess there could be some "Timmy" value to giving a book full of epic-level creatures, but I don't think it's a practical design decision. :) If I'm translating this right, it's OK to reduce a creature's power level since it should be "killable" by a 19th-20th level party? Why weren't the gods reduced to that level, then, rather than statted as 20 HD outsiders with 60 or so class levels? After all, what's the point of putting stats in a book if the creature is useless except as window dressing? (not a personal attack, more of a stab at WotC design philosophy and lack of any internal consistency whatsoever)
Wil_Upchurch 05-08-05, 02:45 AM	If I'm translating this right, it's OK to reduce a creature's power level since it should be "killable" by a 19th-20th level party? Why weren't the gods reduced to that level, then, rather than statted as 20 HD outsiders with 60 or so class levels? After all, what's the point of putting stats in a book if the creature is useless except as window dressing? (not a personal attack, more of a stab at WotC design philosophy and lack of any internal consistency whatsoever) Keep in mind that I'm not representing WotC design philosophy (I hope I made that clear earlier), rather I'm giving my own views on the material I produced. I haven't yet seen the book, so I can't comment on any changes that were made (although I have great respect for the development and design teams at WotC). With that out of the way, are these gods we're discussing? No, they are not. This book presented a lot of super-powerful creatures, but it's not an epic-level supplement. I wanted the elder evils to be extremely powerful creatures...they're tougher than the tarrasque! :) ...but I didn't think they deserved to be godlike. I don't believe their stats as presented in CoR are in any way a downgrade from earlier editions, nor were they artificially reduced to fit into some Evil WotC Design Philosophy (TM). :)
Yokinobu 05-08-05, 03:07 AM	Well, when you have have powerful, unique creatures with a relatively low CR for their age and infamy, one must ask, "why haven't they been destroyed by someone or something yet?" Then I come to the vague conclusion that guile and resourcefulness have kept them alive so long. But all the cunning in the world shouldn't save Kezef from deities, since he of course poses a threat to their immortality from what I understand. And thus, I really have a problem with the Eternal Elder Evils being so defeatable, not so much creatures like Bazim-Gorag. They have after all been around since the creation of Abeir-Toril. I don't know. I realize the designers had to have taken these things into consideration, so their must be a good enough reason. If I were a DMing a campaign, I might let epic characters battle one of the Elder Evils, but I would always put them just out of reach of destruction by some event, as if Ao himself(?) was protecting them. Not that he really would, but I think their destruction would bring about a slight inbalance to the Realms(which is why I think they should be harder to kill). Remember the Deities Do's and Don'ts Web Enhancement for Faiths and Pantheons? I think this would have been a good subject to address, had it been applicable at the time.
msatran 05-08-05, 03:18 AM	I don't use the stats for the Gods in the Faiths and Pantheons book. Here's how the gods work in my FR game. You dare to challenge the gods? Present your case to said deity. Hope you like crow. If you wish to slay said deity, guess what? There are no dice rolled. The god just says "I win initiative. SMITE!" PC takes 2^38th power or whatever other horrible number you choose points of damage, and cannot be ressurrected. The idea that anyone can take on an eternal, cosmically mighty being that can level continents, uproot mountains, flatten the Simbul's excessively impressive chest, grant spells to thousands of clerics every day, and turn fertile fields into deserts is horsepucky. The gods are a DM tool that provide plot points for clerics, druids, and other motivated mortals. They are not supposed to be fought, battled, or opposed directly.
Sammael_the_Chosen 05-08-05, 03:28 AM	I don't use the stats for the Gods in the Faiths and Pantheons book. Here's how the gods work in my FR game. Good for you. That's my take as well. But keep in mind that the core D&D design team that came up with Deities and Demigods disagrees, and that, as a consequence, the FR gods were statted (wasting a HUMONGOUS amount of space in the process) in Faiths and Pantheons. Now, the Elder Eternal Evils are 1) so powerful that the gods are afraid of them and 2) unkillable by all accounts. Thus, they shouldn't have been statted; or, at best, they shouldn't have been statted in such a way as to allow a party of moderately epic characters to kill them without breaking a sweat. Dendar is so powerful that she can devour the SUN. Kezef bit Tyr's hand off and chased Mask across the planes. The Seldarine can't stop the Elf-Eater when Malar unleashes him from the depths of the Abyss. Yet... Elminster could easily kill all three, being... oh... 10+ CRs above them.
Gray Richardson 05-08-05, 03:32 AM	Wil is right. The 2E stats were even weaker. Just for comparison here are some highlights of the 2E stats of the EEE's from Powers & Pantheons: Dendar: AC -2, HD 28 (224 HP), Thaco -9, # attacks: 1 (3d20+10 bite), Special Defenses: +5 or better weapon to hit, Regeneration 5, Magic Resistance 90% Kezef: AC -6, HD 26 (208 HP), Thaco -7, Attacks 1 (1d20+10), Special Defenses: +3 or better weapon to hit, Regeneration 5, Magic Resistance 70% Elf-Eater: AC: -10 carapace, 2 tentacles, -6 legs; HD 27 (216 HP), Thaco -7, # attacks: 40 (up to 8 on one target) (damage: 1d10 per tentacle), Regeneration 2, Magic Resistance 25% As you can see, the Elder Eternal Evils were considerably weaker in their 2E incarnations, and I think the 3E conversions of them are comparable, even an improvement over the 2E stats, while still honoring the spirit of established FR lore.
Gray Richardson 05-08-05, 03:38 AM	Here is another thought. Maybe they are called Eternal Evils for a reason. Maybe they can't really be killed permanently. Maybe they represent something so fundamental to the cosmos that they just come back to life the next day after getting killed. Maybe even the gods do not posess the power to kill them. Perhaps the best one can hope for is to imprison them (as they did with Kezef) or banish them to the Abyss (as they did to the elf-eater) or keep them busy and continuously have them expend their power (as they do to Dendar) so that they do not build up enough power to become a threat.
Sammael_the_Chosen 05-08-05, 03:41 AM	Ahhh... the wonders of 2E. Let's go over these stats. Dendar: AC -2, HD 28 (224 HP), Thaco -9, # attacks: 1 (3d20+10 bite), Special Defenses: +5 or better weapon to hit, Regeneration 5, Magic Resistance 90% THAC0 -9 means that Dendar is going to hit pretty much everyone, all the time. 3d20+10 damage kills nearly every character (you stopped rolling for HP after 10th level, remember) in two or three bites. 224 HP is a lot, as there aren't very many ways to increase weapon damage. +5 weapons are rare. MR 90% means that ANY wizard, regardless of his level, has a 90% chance of spell failure against her. Kezef: AC -6, HD 26 (208 HP), Thaco -7, Attacks 1 (1d20+10), Special Defenses: +3 or better weapon to hit, Regeneration 5, Magic Resistance 70% As with Dendar, but slightly weaker. Elf-Eater: AC: -10 carapace, 2 tentacles, -6 legs; HD 27 (216 HP), Thaco -7, # attacks: 40 (up to 8 on one target) (damage: 1d10 per tentacle), Regeneration 2, Magic Resistance 25% 8 attacks at THAC0 -7 for 8d10 points of damage total? That's not insignificant in 2E. In 3E, it's nothing to be worried about. BTW, how were Dendar's nightmare attacks and Kezef's putrid breath and howl translated?
Dargoth 05-08-05, 08:39 PM	Dendar is so powerful that she can devour the SUN. Thats not quite correct Dendar can swallow the sun WHEN shes consumed enough forgotten Nightmares. There is actually a reason why Dendar may have such a low CR now, as I said above Dendar gains power (and size) by consuming the forgotten Nightmares of mortals, however during the novel Prince of Lies she was forced to release a large number of Nightmares against Cyrics minions in the Realm of the Dead. Releasing all those Nightmare may well have reduced Dendars power (and in game terms CR)
BrianCritchley 05-08-05, 08:42 PM	Justice of Weald and Woe is earth-shatteringly broken. First of all, the class grants a set of truly amazing abilities to...the Eldreth Veluuthra, an organization that has maybe a total of 135 members. so? it's a small orginization but powerful. We need more nationbooks about individual nations that are not three to five nation lumpy. Instead of a sourcebook that encompasses the entire Shining South, this book should have been a book on Dambrath, a Book on Halruaa, a book on Channath Vale, etc. sure that'd be great but how many people would BUY IT that way? they need to make the subject material borad eneugh to appeal to large numbers of people. Nothing torques me off more than running eight to ten campaigns in the same gameworld and having a book come out five years later that says "Sorry, you got everything wrong about Organization X, Y, or Z in the Realms. Have a nice day, please change the veins in your neck." more dfetail ain't gonna solve that. unless you expect WOTC to just snap their fingers and delvier you all the detail. RIGHT NOW
GothicDan 05-08-05, 09:08 PM	I personally am glad that I did not buy this book - with absolutely no disrespect meant towards any of the authors involved. I long ago realized that my vision of classical FR (1E/2E) was not the direction in which modern FR was going. Slaadi Lords being Epic levels lower than the levels of iconic characters? Eternal Evils of a lower CR than the same? I don't understand this. It took an avatar of Angarradh (a Greater God) to even momentarily hold off the Ityak-Ortheel (Elaine Cunningham's Evermeet book). This was a Greater God fighting, directly, not running due to am ambiguity of knowledge about the creature's power, the Elf-Eater. How the heck could the Eternal Evils be anything other than divine, in keeping with the consistency of previously etablished lore? I really, personally, don't give a zarking (ha, ha) darn about how likely it would be for me to be able to use X creature of Y CR in an adventure in which my PCs of Z level are going to go up against them. And in 2E, the Eternal Evils were utterly kick-arse compared to even high level NPCs. 90% magic resistance? Unless a wizard had a lot of pierce any shield spells memorized (9th level spell, mind you), he was very much out of luck.
GothicDan 05-08-05, 09:15 PM	And just to further support Sammael in his analysis of the 2E stats... Let's take into account, qualitatively, some average 2E stats. Your typical 2E Fighter of 20th level probably had a Con of, let's say 15 - which may seem very low nowadays, but in 2E, most Fighters went for their highest scores in Strength, and it was nearly impossible for said Fighter to raise their stats. Let's say they averaged a 6 on their first 10 dice rolls. Their Con gives them a +1 HP/level. So that's 7 HP for 10 levels, or 70 HP. For the next 10 levels, he got 3 HP per level, so that's a whopping 100 HP of damage. So, a 20th level fighter with 100 HP, and let's be generous, and say an AC of.. -8. And a THAC0 of -9. First Round: Fighter hits Dendar for, oh, 30 HP of damage (very respectable for 2E - providing that his weapon is +5) the first hit, 25 the second hit. Dendar hits fighter for 40 HP of damage. She regenerates 5 HP (so she's taken effectively 50. Second Round: Fighter hits Dendar for 32 and 22. Dendar hits fighter for 42 HP of damage. She regenerates 5 HP. ... One can quickly see where this is going. And this is Dendar not using ANY of her special abilities. And remember, in 2E, Fighters didn't -have- any special abilities. So let's not try to analyze creatures of such awesome power as the Eternal Evils by looking at their 2E stats, since they make no sense in context to 3E. And this is why the 2E creatures were MUCH more powerful, considering the context and rules of 2E, than the 3E ones are currently.
Meta_FR_DM 05-09-05, 02:42 AM	Just picked the book up; only been able to read it piecemeal. Here are my thoughts thus far, in no particular order: Magic Items The addition of a Lore section to the magic item descriptions is an idea that’s long overdue. It’s nice to see more fluff girding what is otherwise a very crunchy section of your average Realms book. The inclusion of Knowledge Skill DC’s with each item’s description is going to be a great way for Dungeon Masters to prompt their players to use their characters’ skills and get them thinking about the game world. The expanded breakdown of each magic item’s description with sub-headers (Lore, Description, Activation, Effect, Aura/Caster Level, Variants, etc…) and sub-section specific information under each header looks awfully useful to me. No more poring through an item’s description to find critical info. I really like seeing the Aura/Caster level info clearly designated. I also like seeing variants for a given item listed along with that item, such as can be found for the Hideous item property. Spells Aumvor’s Fragmented Phylactery is a great Epic Spell. It’s great because the DC is right where it needs to be for your 21-26th level NPC Lich Spellcaster. And 21-26th level Epic Liches are good because their level is just right for your atypical Epic Level party to face. Fragmented Phylactery is also great because of what it does (i.e. fragmenting phylacteries), making it harder to completely do away with a lich permanently, thus making liches more challenging and allowing Dungeon Masters to keep Lich NPC’s around to bedevil player characters with their seeming longevity. Realms books need more user-friendly epic spells like Fragmented Phylactery and Aumvor’s Soulshatter, because they can be used by Dungeon Masters (that is, used by a DM’s NPCs). The other Epic Spells in the book are very evocative (they get my imagination rolling) and the mechanics look sound….but then they’re not as likely to be used by DM’s due to their “any NPC who can cast this can slay your average Epic Party anway” DCs. Prestige Classes These just keep getting better and better. By better I mean seemingly longer descriptions (than Lost Empires’ PrC’s, it seemed like) and descriptions that speak to the mindset and attitudes of the Prestige Classes in the book. The Justice of Weald and Woe is a great example of this. The PrC’s description talks about how Justices and Evereskan Tomb Guards sometimes have cause to cooperate, due to their overlapping goals and beliefs, yet it takes pains to contrast how this overlap more often results in competition and even conflict. Yet the book does more by giving us a brief bit of Realmslore that details one example of the exception to the rule, in the form of a brief story of a Justice and a Tomb Guard who worked together to bring low a human wizard of the Arcane Brotherhood. This tale gives names, locations and background…again more good lore that serves to highlight the nature and purpose of the Justice of Weald and Woe. Contrast this with earlier statements in the thread that talk only about the Justice’s game mechanics….all the more reason in my opinion for Wizards to continue beefing up PrC lore, so the company can train its customers to look beyond the stats. Spells I wonder if Wil worked on all the arrow-related spells in this book? I don’t know if they are all reprints (they don’t look familiar), but I do know I like these spells a lot! It’s great to see the swift action mechanic incorporated in a way that fits its purpose and enhances the combat abilities of rangers and assassins. I’m disappointed these spells (including Arrow Split, Bloodfreeze Arrow, Brilliant Energy Arrow, Double Strike Arrow and Spellslayer Arrow) aren’t open to Wizards and Sorcerers (why should your Fighter/Wizard Arcane Archer need to take levels in Ranger to gain access to these spells?), but I’m sure a reasonable DM would open up the rules to accommodate this. I can already see my players trying to stack all these spells plus True Strike onto a single arrow…I wonder if that's possible within the rules. Opinions? Other spell highlights include Remorseless Charm, a permanent sort of inhibition and conscience-silencing magic which seems like a great spell to build a good adventure around. Let’s see, according to tavern tales lord Huld Belabranta of Waterdeep was once considered a ‘smiling and generous host,’ yet now rumors persist of something dark infesting his house and even his soul, which drives him to commit all manner of deads to acquire what he desires…. Did he become the victim of a Remorseless Charm when he viewed a piece of artwork depicting his son’s supposed debauched revelry with his now deceased mother?* Was the artwork secreted into Huld's home perhaps by agents of the Iron Throne or those of some other enterprise…perhaps even by Huld’s apprentice Rycc Khaernos in a bid unseat his master and gain favor with the ranks of the Arcane Brotherhood? Yup, good spells all around. Champions of Evil I like ‘em, a lot. I think the talk about how their stats are ‘wrong’ is pointless and dumb in the sense that its wrong to assume these stats need to reflect a level of power that can pit the Elder Evils against the gods. Their stats need to be where they’re at so Dungeon Masters can use them to challenge Epic Level characters. Simple. The stats also make the Elder Evils quite awesomely powerful compared to your average mortal Faerûnian. Further I think anyone wishing to field comments in this thread on the power levels for these beings ought to at least first read the book; a cursory glance at their descriptions and stats gives the lie to any statement that Elminster or an Epic party could go toe to toe with these beings and somehow come away victorious and unharmed. There’s no rule against tweaking stats to suit the Dungeon Master’s needs. Still need to read the rest of the book, but I like it so far. The new, less glossy paper (which isn't a downgrade, despite the B.S. rumors on the Eberron Forums) is a nice change. Dave M. *A piece of artwork and the viewing of such is part of the spell's requirement.
Dargoth 05-09-05, 03:58 AM	Remorseless Charm sounds like it might be the Spell Fallen Soul which appears in Dragon 312
Kessalin Talira 05-09-05, 04:43 AM	Gray, you read my mind. For my campaign, the three Eternal Evils all have the following: Eternal (Ex): If the Elder Evil is killed in any manner, it reforms in its lair or prison 24 hours later, fully restored (any negative conditions are removed, the being has full hit points and is fully capable of taking all actions it could before being destroyed). No known power in the cosmos, including the greatest efforts of the mightiest deities, can permanently destroy the Elder Evils. Kezef the Chaos Hound has no lair, and no longer has a prison; therefore he reappears in a random location in the Barrens of Doom and Despair, the plane of his former imprisonment for so many years. On the subject of the Epic Spells, I liked seeing some new factors thrown in, and I think they're about right in terms of power vs. cost. None are described or charted out, but in the epic spell Development blocks, factors and mitigating factors appear for the following: maximizing damage damage, area, and volume scaling by caster level augmenting the effects of magical items through use of the spell permanent disfigurement to the caster using an artifact as a material component These are all new to me; I haven't seen anything like them appearing anywhere else. If someone else has, could you please let me know where? The spells themselves are well done, I think. I haven't reverse-engineered the elemental spells yet, though I think there might be a slight discrepancy with the damage die size, type, and end result. Other than that, they look good. (Out of curiosity, how much does a cubic foot of water weigh? :twitch: ) As far as CRs for the various beings are concerned, I must look at things slightly backward from most. When I see that Dendar the Night Serpent is CR 26, it puts into perspective for me just how much the average (iconic N)PC accomplishes in the course of an adventuring life that brings them to that level. I don't look at that CR 26 and think "That seems really low" so much as I think "Elminster's had a ROUGH life". All things considered, there are things that can be changed about various parts of the book, such as making the Eternal Evils truly eternal, but overall I think it's a job well done on the part of the designers. Ityak-Ortheel will still scare the hell out of the PC's in my campaign... they have to deal with it sometime in the next few levels, so the 3.5 conversion couldn't come at a much better time.
Ardashir 05-09-05, 11:10 AM	Somewhat OT, but concerning the Ityak-Ortheel/Elf-Eater: if it can face down the entire Seldarine, then why does it take marching orders from Malar? I always got the idea he was the inbred yokel cousin of the Faerunian gods; indeed, that the only reason he even _is_ a god is because no one else wants his sphere of influence. ("You control psychos, werebeasts, and drunken murderers -- yes, I truly want to give up rulership of Faerun's tyrants to claim your worshippers, Malar.") Indeed, if the Elf-Eater really is all that, I wonder why Malar hasn't unleashed him to smack some humility into other deities when they mock him.
FriendOfReligion 05-09-05, 05:18 PM	My personal view and others will not agree with me, of course. The philosophies of evil section could be of some use but I'd like it to be a bit longer. (Snipping of the answer to my own question, the answering of which was a gracious gesture on the part of Kuje, for which I thank him.) The paper seems to be the same paper they used in Lords of Madness and so for barely 160 page book 30 bucks seems a little pricey. But it's FR and well of course I'll buy them since I love this setting. So WOTC has another evil book out but it's nice and all but, like the BOVD, it seems lacking to me. :) Something which has bothered me for many long years is that players seem to have no grasp of the environment from which they come. At its worst, a player might say that his character comes from Waterdeep and be utterly clueless as to the major NPCs of the city. Are Waterdhavian schools as bad as American that people don't even know the name of the person who has ruled their country for years?! Much as I enjoy the philosophical badinage associated with discussions of "Good" and "Evil," I would greatly welcome a great big book on Toril which explores day-to-day living amongst the ordinary mass of folks, so that players would have some idea of what "life on the farm" was like, and so that DMs can flesh out the milieu of adventures. One of the most informative pieces I have ever read about the Forgotten Realms was "Small Presses of Waterdeep." The mere fact that there are cheap books and daily newspapers places Waterdeep into an easily identifiable socio-historic and economic niche -- it's not just some vaguely Medieval city, it is Venice or Antwerp at the beginning of the 16th century, filled with excitement, with news from all parts of the world and daily expectations of further amazement caused by the "wonders" and "marvels" newly discovered by the gnomes of Lantan or the conquistadores of Amn. 90%+ of the players of D&D have no idea how a "traditional" farm works; a "splat book" about basic occupations in a Medieval-verging-on-Renaissance world would be very helpful. With the exception of sailors, few non-fantastic professions have been delineated for D&D in general and the Realms in particular. Even some simple information such as whether or not peasants are bound to the land or are free to travel would be of great benefit. If a farm dweller person is free to travel but poor compared to a city-dweller because of a lack of coinage, then -- wham -- an "adventurer" is born. (And just where the heck do all of these rural hamlets get the heaps of money which they offer to PCs for protection from bandits or monsters? Whatever happened to protecting villagers in exchange for a bowl of rice or all the beans and tortillas you can eat?) Do the peasants of the Western Heartlands have to work nine days a week? What about the slaves of Mulhorrand? Maybe those questions have been answered elsewhere, but a related question arises: are there many "saint's days" which are non-working feast days, as Medieval Catholic peasants enjoyed in Europe (working fewer days each year, in fact, then "rich" moderns)? Is crop rotation practiced with one field left fallow each year? (A fallow field surround by sown -- what a lovely place to have PCs stumble into on a chill, moonless night in Eleint (especially on the anniversary of the palace slaughter in Tethyr a few years back). Add a farm boy met before sundown desperate to get home before dark and refusing to explain why, "Because ye'll tell 'em, ye'll tell 'em ye will!" If their characters aren't farmers and haven't spent points in Profession (Farmer), they could spend hours of fruitful role-playing exploring the field and wondering why nothing is growing there, although they may turn up some rusted bits of metal which might have come from broken weapons or armor, or sharp flint arrowheads -- it would certainly separate the ROLL players from the ROLE players. And won't there be lots of fun rolling when they have finally come to take fallow fields for granted, let their guard down while walking through them, and "a body meets a body, a-cumming through the rye," and that body looks as though it died a few weeks ago, but is coming at them! BOO! They're flat-footed.) :schemes: The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting is a wonderful book, but there just isn't anything available explaining how ordinary D&D folks live if they're not adventurers. There is a big need for one, I think. The Realms may be filled "Champions of Ruin," and "Vile Darkness," "Exalted Deeds," and "Lords of Darkness," but the bottom line is that the Zhents are only "evil" because they are sharp trade competitors of their neighbors. To brand the Zhentarim as "Evil" is like calling the Venetians "evil" because they edged the Genoese out of Constantinople. Darned few of the people who are actively "evil" in the FR are consciously supporting the ethos of "Evil," they are mostly people just out to make a fast raven or put some pottage on the table for the kids, which is true in most Primes, I think. :teach: (Attention publishers: I will write for pay! Inquire of the homeless man holding this sign.)
Gray Richardson 05-09-05, 08:18 PM	Somewhat OT, but concerning the Ityak-Ortheel/Elf-Eater: if it can face down the entire Seldarine, then why does it take marching orders from Malar? I always got the idea he was the inbred yokel cousin of the Faerunian gods; indeed, that the only reason he even _is_ a god is because no one else wants his sphere of influence. ("You control psychos, werebeasts, and drunken murderers -- yes, I truly want to give up rulership of Faerun's tyrants to claim your worshippers, Malar.") Indeed, if the Elf-Eater really is all that, I wonder why Malar hasn't unleashed him to smack some humility into other deities when they mock him.The Elf-Eater was formed from the mingled blood of Gruumsh & Corellon in their epic battle where Corellon blinded Gruumsh's eye. The Elf-Eater is not bound to Malar in anyway except that Malar keeps transporting it to Faerun to eat elves. It really likes to eat elves and so in as much as it thinks of Malar at all it probably appreciates that he lets it out on occasion. The Elf-Eater's only consuming passion is to passionately consume elves. It would not be bothered to stray from that purpose, even if Malar let it out of the Abyss and commanded it to attack another target. In the past the Elf-Eater has been let loose by other gods. Malar seems to be the only one that cares to free it from time to time. He just does it to punish the elves. I don't think that he hates the elves enough to try to exterminate them completely. Malar does get enraged enough at them though to visit a giant predator down upon them once every century or so.
ClobberinTime 05-10-05, 10:56 AM	Haven't any of you complainers realized yet that the new FR is only designed to support play up until 23rd or 24th level PCs at max. As such we have a wealth of material to draw on. If you are using 3.5 canon, you gotta send your PCs onto the planes after that. Plus, its not like there are millions of humans above level 20 in the FR. Kuje whats the grand total even from 2e, like 30 or 40, and almost all of those mages. So the other thing is that Elminster versus the Demon Prince is supposed to be a pretty 50-50 fight. which like many epic combats is pretty rock scissors paper and hard for all of them. Will- Sorry they scared you off, good luck with everything.
Kuje31 05-10-05, 11:34 AM	Plus, its not like there are millions of humans above level 20 in the FR. Kuje whats the grand total even from 2e, like 30 or 40, and almost all of those mages. So the other thing is that Elminster versus the Demon Prince is supposed to be a pretty 50-50 fight. which like many epic combats is pretty rock scissors paper and hard for all of them. There's about 120+ 21st+ mages in the old lore. Clerics are second and then fighters and thieves just maybe have 10 total if you combine those two classes together.
GothicDan 05-10-05, 12:01 PM	I think that Kuje's numbers reflected the idea that Faerun was made for ALL levels of roleplay, including the upper echelons of Epic (25+). I mean, think about the archmages of other worlds, just as an example. How many ones can you think that were above 20th level? Krynn: NONE. Greyhawk: What.. a dozen or so? (I am sure Rip would be able to answer that). That being said.. I TOTALLY agree with you, FriendofReligion. YES! I'd actually -buy- a 3.5 book like the one you described. And also.. If you are using 3.5 canon, you gotta send your PCs onto the planes after that. And the 3.5 FR Planes have not been fleshed out at all, almost. So this makes this "alternative" (sending players to the FR Planes after 24th level, which is what you think that WotC assumes we should do) not at all viable within the context of WotC's own mindset (disconnecting Faerun from the rest of the very-well-described cosmologies).
Navar 05-10-05, 12:23 PM	Haven't any of you complainers realized yet that the new FR is only designed to support play up until 23rd or 24th level PCs at max. As such we have a wealth of material to draw on. If you are using 3.5 canon, you gotta send your PCs onto the planes after that. This is GOOD though. 99% of games don't go epic. Plus, its not like there are millions of humans above level 20 in the FR. Kuje whats the grand total even from 2e, like 30 or 40, and almost all of those mages. So the other thing is that Elminster versus the Demon Prince is supposed to be a pretty 50-50 fight. which like many epic combats is pretty rock scissors paper and hard for all of them. Will- Sorry they scared you off, good luck with everything. Also Elminster has the one feat that breaks a wizard Vs. anything with spells, and spell like abilities. Spellfire wielder.
ClobberinTime 05-10-05, 01:14 PM	Wow 120 arch mages, that doesn't include counting those that appear in different places twice right? How many above 25th level?? 20 or so. Given that yeah I could see how one might want the CRs to be a little higher. Like I am sure someone said maybe those are just avatars, or the base creatures and we can easily add class levels to them to improve them. Honestly one of the reasons I switched from GH was that there was nothing there after level 20 or so there are maybe 10 characters on oerth higher than level 20.
Kuje31 05-10-05, 01:57 PM	Wow 120 arch mages, that doesn't include counting those that appear in different places twice right? How many above 25th level?? 20 or so. Given that yeah I could see how one might want the CRs to be a little higher. Aye those are just those that are listed without having them appear in other sourcebooks. There looks to be about 135 wizards alone that are 21st+. Granted some of these are dead or undead. :) As for those above 25th, theres about 51 of them.
ClobberinTime 05-10-05, 03:38 PM	Ay caramba batman, thats kinda crazy. Kuje could you guestimate how many of them are still alive? Wow, this world is set up for epic play, epic mage killers in fact.....
Kuje31 05-10-05, 03:45 PM	Ay caramba batman, thats kinda crazy. Kuje could you guestimate how many of them are still alive? Wow, this world is set up for epic play, epic mage killers in fact..... I'd say more then 75% of those 25+ are still alive or undead.
GothicDan 05-10-05, 10:19 PM	FR is set up for all levels of play, which is why it seems fishy to me that the EEE's should be set up to be "killable" by a target level range, when they are supposed to be THE most powerful things around, rivaling the gods, which are still supremely stronger than even the Archmages of FR. So, what do you do when you kill the EEE's at level, say, 26? If you can do that, certainly all of the other uber-Epic NPCs (Larloch, Ioliaum, the Srinshee, the Simbul, Elminster), and even the gods themselves are going to be too afraid to tangle with you. You go to the Planes, you say? Huh, too bad there's next to nothing detailed about FR's planes or its inhabitants near a CR that could challenge you. Sure, there are the Gods, but... They're probably quivering in their boots, still, from you taking out the EEE's like that, which they had nightmares about themselves. Strange. Very strange. The ELH is supposedly unlimited in level scope, and yet the world that historically would have the MOST use for the ELH has its most mythologically powerful baddies capped at CRs that are made for the -lowest- Epic Level characters (considering 21-25 has a limit of 0 as the Epic Level 'function' goes to infinity, which it does), which means that the rest of the ELH is pretty much useless. Wow, there's about 100 pages that we paid for that we'll never need. Even on the standard Great Wheel, if you decide to link it to the FR cosmology, the Abyssal Lords and the Lords of the Nine are in the exact same predicament as the EEE - their CRs are far too low to reflect the sheer level of power that they should have, which at least equaled that of the deities themselves. But, who needs a wholistic analysis of a situation, eh? :) Certainly not WotC; they do what makes them the most money, and for that I cannot blame them. I can dislike it, however, and that's what I do.
BobROE 05-10-05, 11:17 PM	If the EEE are suppose to be as powerful as their mythology suggests (and I'm not saying they shouldn't be) why do people want stats for them? I mean everyone considers the god stats in P&P a waste of space so what's the point of getting stats for creatures that are suppose to be powerful enough to challenge them? What good are the stats for a CR 70 creature other than to look at? Do lots of people have games running at around 70th level? Perhaps it's just that the ELH sold so badly that WotC knows that most groups don't play past 20th level, and thus CR 25ish creatures are really powerful.
FriendOfReligion 05-11-05, 01:29 AM	If the EEE are suppose to be as powerful as their mythology suggests (and I'm not saying they shouldn't be) why do people want stats for them? I mean everyone considers the god stats in P&P a waste of space so what's the point of getting stats for creatures that are suppose to be powerful enough to challenge them? What good are the stats for a CR 70 creature other than to look at? Do lots of people have games running at around 70th level? Perhaps it's just that the ELH sold so badly that WotC knows that most groups don't play past 20th level, and thus CR 25ish creatures are really powerful. There are at least two threads in which the stats for Larloch are hotly debated. Good grief, he's got a horde of other liches enslaved! What else do players need to know before they get the message that if they attack him they will all die -- or worse? Mask is a god with a lot of "whump" at his disposal, but he won't take a stand against Kezef, yet some players think they can take down the Chaos Hound. If they are that strong why aren't they killing gods and supplanting them? Oy! But giving the EEEs low stats means that other monsters are also given lower stats so that they won't exceed the EEEs. That's not good. OT: As for the ELH, I don't think the comparison is quite fair. When I first looked through it, my impression was: so what? Nothing in the book immediately grabbed my attention and made me think, "WOW! Life is totally different after 20th level!" 5 level prestige classes, new feats, but no super-dooper powers that I could see, not at first glance, anyway. Someone finally gave me a copy and I got to look at it in more detail and saw that it was pretty much a 3rd edition version of Dungeon Master's Option: High Level Campaigns, for which I paid many dollars on eBay recently. To be honest, I would rather take 10 levels each of a couple of other PrC to reach 30th level -- doing so would make my character an Outsider with some other fantastic prestige level 10 power. However, after carefully reading the ELH feats, I must say that I like them and would take them in preference to many others I have seen, and that includes the wide selection in Mongoose's Ultimate Book of Feats. Back on topic: the slow dribble of information WOTC is releasing about Champions of Ruin hasn't impressed me yet. Three new races? Jayzus! That's ... what? ... 812 "races" to choose from now? How about focusing on human beings as original D&D did, especially since the only regular players who don't have human characters are min-maxing Munchkins. "Hmmm, Joe, your character sheet says that your character is a one quarter minotaur, one quarter dragon, one quarter tinker gnome tiefling, and that Asmodeus is your grand-uncle on your mother's side... hmmm ... read my lips: Not In My Campaign." More evil organizations? What? We didn't have enough already with the Cult of the Dragon, the Zhentarim, the Krakens, the Fire Knives, the Assassins, Thayan enclave merchants -- remember them from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting? WOTC has, apparently -- and, let's see, miscellaneous Banites, Cyricists, monster rulers in Tethyr, Orc warlords, Shades, multiplying Myrkulites, Shadow Weave wizards, Shadowmasters of Telflamm, People of the Black Blood (are the good lycanthropes the People of the White Blood?), Malaugryms, the Xanathar's Guild, the Black Network (again -- are the good guys "the White Network?"), the Arcane Brotherhood, the Twisted Rune, wicked Amnian conquistadores, Drow up the wazoo, undead in Shoonach, Damaran bandits, Eternal Elder Evils, and people with B.O.? We needed more evil organizations in Faerun? Hell, gimme a deck of Illuminati cards and I can add a bunch more: the Waterdhavian Illuminati, the Gnomes of Zazesspur, Spelljammer Cultists, the International Jhaamdathan Conspiracy, and those dread tomes, the Protocols of the Elders of Halruaa and the Nethernomicon. ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!! WOTC, puh-leeze just develop and enrich what already exists. Is that too much to ask? No more new races. No more new prestige classes. No more new feats. Just deep, thorough resource books on the countries and regions of the Realms, deep, thorough histories of the ancient cultures, vivid, detailed travelogues (remember Volo's Guides? we players do!).... Oh, and maybe you could tell us what's up with Mask and Kezef so we can put Mask back into play as a god again.
Karsus the Mad 05-11-05, 04:39 AM	On the subject of the Epic Spells, I liked seeing some new factors thrown in, and I think they're about right in terms of power vs. cost. None are described or charted out, but in the epic spell Development blocks, factors and mitigating factors appear for the following. These are all new to me; I haven't seen anything like them appearing anywhere else. If someone else has, could you please let me know where? Whoa....I don't think wotc scanned my sys or read my mind, so it has to be coincidence......will have to check out this book to see how close I got to what the writers came up with.....but to answer you, I've seen them on my system since I've come up with a some of these on my own some time ago. I won't put the details up here, as it's not the topic of this thread, but some of the factors and mitigating factors i've devised on my own are variant increase area/range, increase variables by level, metamagic enhancement on the fly, caster loses a level, caster dies, living sacrifices, permanently expend spell slot, decrease corruptible duration, artifact fueling......wonder if this means I also have a great mind like the great ones....then again, I probably just got lucky. From what I've heard of this book, it sounds awesome. I'd like to thank the creative people that worked so hard on this. Definitely can't wait to get my hands on it.
Yokinobu 05-11-05, 07:48 AM	I whole-heartedly agree with FriendOfReligion. Disappointment with the EEE's aside, I was not impressed with the fact that they introduced two new races. Besides the races being ECL +0 despite their powerful ancestry, I just didn't think they were necessary. It's like the designers felt obligated to add races just because it's a new book, even if it's not justfied. Well, there would have been plenty of old one's that could be elaborated upon, if they had looked. Krinth? Where were these guys when I read the Archwizards trilogy, or Lord of Darkness? I have a feeling that years from now, the Forgotten Realms won't even be the same setting as it used to be.
GothicDan 05-11-05, 02:04 PM	Coming from a guy who is a firm believer in less is more, I agree with Friend of Religion. That's all I'll say. I wonder if WotC will start letting us buy -parts- of sourcebooks at a reduced price? ;) "Hm.. I'll take out the sections on new feats, new races, new skills, new prestige classes, variant prestige classes, gi-zarking-gantic blocks of NPC/sample monster stats.. 20 dollars? Deal!"
Meta_FR_DM 05-12-05, 02:31 AM	I wonder if GothicDan ever read the web supplement to Faiths and Pantheons? That'd sure answer a lot of his questions. Dave -can we get back to talking about the book now?- M
FriendOfReligion 05-12-05, 04:17 AM	Oops. Wrong button. Please delete.
FriendOfReligion 05-12-05, 04:21 AM	Coming from a guy who is a firm believer in less is more, I agree with Friend of Religion. That's all I'll say. I wonder if WotC will start letting us buy -parts- of sourcebooks at a reduced price? ;) "Hm.. I'll take out the sections on new feats, new races, new skills, new prestige classes, variant prestige classes, gi-zarking-gantic blocks of NPC/sample monster stats.. 20 dollars? Deal!" I'm a grouser, whiner, complainer, and cynic from childhood (thanks, Dad!), and I've been complaining for a year or more that the FR books WOTC is publishing include all of the information about locales, people, and things. It creates a situation in which a player who can out-spend his or her DM can play rules lawyer and argue from a position of legalistic superiority. (Not in any game of mine, of course, but not all DMs are as sophisticated and stone-hearted as I am.) Obviously it's more profitable for WOTC to publish books this way, and Hasbro milks WOTC as their corporate cash cow. We gamers would be much better served if "Player's Handbooks" didn't contradict "Campaign Settings" (like the one the DM owns), with declarations on their website and on the boards that the most recent book they have published is authoritative, no matter what earlier books say. Did the DM spend FORTY DOLLARS on the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting and ANOTHER THIRTY-THREE DOLLARS on Faiths and Avatars which categorically states that there are no other deities in the Realms than the ones named in that book? TOO BAD! One of the players just spent thirty dollars on Serpent Kingdoms and WOTC says that that is authoritative, not the SEVENTY-THREE DOLLARS in books spent by the DM. If a player can afford to spend $100 but a DM can only afford $70, the DM is screwed. Of course, Rule Zero (which isn't 0 in 3.$, anymore) still holds. The DM is always right. Except that WOTC says that a player who buys more of their books than the DM does is more right. Now, even a DM who has bought $100 or more in FR books may find himself or herself badgered by a player who has just spent THIRTY MORE DOLLARS to play one of these new evil races, or fight some new evil organization or ... :mad: Champions of Ruin may be terrific (and we have one of the co-authors telling us that it is), but if it contradicts anything in the books which I own, my players will not be allowed to over-rule me and my books. Instead of urging my players to buy new FR books, the message they all get from me, loud and clear, is: "If it's not in a book which I own, it doesn't exist, and any rule in a book which I don't own has no applicability. Period. End of report." I advised a potential player just a few days ago that he only needed to know about the area from whence his character hails (I like the idea of regional feats and I'll allow those, too), so he only needed to know one section of the Campaign Setting, and I suggested that he buy Faiths and Pantheons if he wanted to play a priest. Anything else his character will learn by adventuring. But ... player o' mine, don't tell me that Bane is god of this thing or that thing, because in my campaign he is still dead because my campaign is only a year on from the end of the Time of Troubles. Don't bother to buy the latest FR books, because if I don't have 'em and they contradict what I do have, I won't allow their content in my game. (People think I'm kidding when I urge them to buy me things from my Amazon.com Wish List. I'm not. The more books I own the more things I will allow in my campaign.) Oh, eventually my campaign will catch up with the current WOTC timeline for the game, and Bane will almost certainly come back from the dead, but he may not be the only one. The monster conquest of Zazesspur? One of my own, personal, player characters comes from there, so it may not happen. If Champions of Ruin or some other new book devotes a whole chapter to it, too d----d bad. Hence, I reiterate my frequent plea: ENOUGH WITH THE F'ING THIRTY AND FORTY DOLLAR HARDBACKS!!!!! I am quite happy with 2nd edition "perfect bound" products which would cost about $15 in today's money, and if there was a perfect bound book for the Sword Coast North, I would buy it. If there was was one for Calimport, I would buy it. Oh wait. There is a perfect bound book for Calimport, but it's out-of-print. I intend to buy it, though, and when I do, it will be the Calimport of my campaign, not the Calimport which is crammed into six pages of some hardback book which costs enough money to feed a family of six in the Sudan for a month. Believe me, if WOTC published dozens of $10-$15 perfect bound books on small geographical areas and revealed no "DM knowledge" in them, I would be quite happy to go out and buy one for East Spithole if a player has a character from there, but I'm not shelling out forty dollars just so that someone can introduce a favorite character into my campaign. If I don't have the book for that area, the player can roll up a new character. Harsh -- yes, but not as harsh as me being forced to spend hundreds of dollars for 3.$$$$ edition hardback books. I've got Cult of the Dragon, the 2nd edition book, as a PDF. If WOTC says, "No, that 'Cult of the Dragon' is no longer canon -- this ($30) 'Cult of the Dragon' is canon," my reply is that all I need to convert a 2nd edition book to 3rd edition is a piece of paper, a pencil, a calculator, and my copy of the conversion booklet. With those simple tools and my current collection of 2nd edition TSR adventures and setting books, I have more of Toril at hand than my players could ever possibly make it through in our real world lifetimes, and I will never need to buy another WOTC product again, worlds within worlds, amen. I suggest that Hasbro take my advice. Let them have WOTC publish a $15 perect bound book on The Dalelands, for instance. If they don't include "DM knowledge," I'm sure their relative margin of profit will be considerably higher and the level of player hostility to the company considerably lower. For those who insist on hardbacks, once a year they can issue a hardback which has the contents of three or four of the perfect bound books. I suspect that their highest return would come if they issued a hardback covering three areas and simultaneously published three separate perfect bound books covering exactly the same content, which together would cost more together than the hardback, creating an incentive for people who can afford them to buy the hardbacks, but allowing players and DMs who want information about one small region to happily buy the single (much cheaper) book for that area alone. *VO*L*U*M*E* is what they should be considering. Let's say that I want to send my players to Aglarond. Am I going to suggest that they all go out and spend THIRTY DOLLARS -- each! -- for Unapproachable East? Heck, no! But I have it, and I don't want my players having all of that secret "DM knowledge" with which it, like all their FR books is packed. If there was, however, a highly detailed perfect bound book about Aglarond which cost only $15, I'd suggest that they all go out and buy it. Which has the higher profit margin for Hasbro? One DM having one copy of Unapproachable East and telling his five players to absolutely, positively not buy it -- or one DM having one copy of Unapproachable East and telling his five players to go spend $15 each on a perfect bound book about Aglarond? (The DM would have to buy it, too, since such a book would certainly have to have more fine details than are in Unapproachable East.) Champions of Ruin has three new "races" for PCs, new prestie clas ... oh, heck, pull up any press release for any WOTC book -- they all say the same d----d thing! What else does it have? Details about secret, evil organizations -- except that they aren't secret! The players who are buying the book for the three new "races," etc., etc., aren't all going to voluntarily stop reading halfway through their THIRTY DOLLAR book just because their DM asks them to -- they bought it, so they are going to read it, and then whatever secret organizations are in the book become pointless to run because all of the players already know as much -- or more -- about them than the DM! If the DM has the players discover some cryptic rune tattooed on an NPC's arm, where's the adventure if every player automatically knows that it is the secret symbol of the International Jhamdaathan Conspiracy, whose current headquarters are located at Number 12 S l u t Street in Waterdeep, and the secret password to get in is, "Ooga-wunga-bunga," and anyone with their "secret" rune tattooed in that particular shade of burgindy on their right forearm is a 3rd level prestige class Mannish-acting Man who can shoot fire out of his left nostril as a supernatural class ability and can summon three pixies twice per day as a free action? Ah ... didn't something get lost along the way in Hasbro's eternal drive to squeeze more golden eggs out of the geese in Renton? Something called "mystery" or "surprise"? DM: You see someone who has a burgundy-colored tattoo on his right forearm. It is of a dragon swallowing an elf who is wearing a black Vera Wang. At the moment the man is facing the back door and ... Player: Oooh! He's a 3rd level Mannish-acting Man of the International Jhamdaathan Conspiracy! He's worth 250 x.p. if we pour cranberry juice into his left ear -- that's the only thing that kills them. DM: Okay, 250 x.p. divided by 5. 50 points each. Gee, look at the time, we've been playing for almost four minutes! See you all next week. You'll be facing a one-sixteenth kender, one-sixteenth tree sloth, one-eighth shadow dragon, one-eighth ghostwise halfling, one-eighth sahaugin, half-orc aasimar 6th-level Psionic Warrior/3rd-level Fighter/5th-level Wizard/5th-level Ranger who has the Blind Fighting feat, but you can kill him by firing an arrow made from Vile Tumtum Tree wood blessed by an 8th-level Shadow Weave-using/8th-level priestess of Shar named Doris. You will all get 150 x.p. So ... ah ... see you in two weeks when I'll have a real challenge for you....
FriendOfReligion 05-12-05, 05:10 AM	If the EEE are suppose to be as powerful as their mythology suggests (and I'm not saying they shouldn't be) why do people want stats for them? I mean everyone considers the god stats in P&P a waste of space so what's the point of getting stats for creatures that are suppose to be powerful enough to challenge them? What good are the stats for a CR 70 creature other than to look at? Do lots of people have games running at around 70th level? Perhaps it's just that the ELH sold so badly that WotC knows that most groups don't play past 20th level, and thus CR 25ish creatures are really powerful. Here are the results of one poll from a D&D Meet-up Group as to their favorite level and style of play. (The sample is small and statistically invalid, but smaller groups have decided more important things than what game books should be published, like, "Who should be President of the United States?".) Low Level 1-5 7 votes (87%) Mid Level 6-12 6 votes (75%) High Level 13+ 2 votes (25%) Epic Level 1 vote (12%) PRGA 3 votes (37%) Home Brew Campaign 2 votes (25%) Campaign Setting Like GH or FR. 7 votes (87%) If Hasbro decided that this was a statistically valid sample, the results would be clear: 1-12th level adventures for Greyhawk or FR are what the gaming public wants. Against characters of that level, a CR 25 EEE would be horrifically powerful. But Kezef isn't very scary if Trebor Munchkin can slap him on the snout with the latest issue of the Sigil Daily Chant and do 200 points of damage to him! Maybe Hasbro should take the hint and leave über-gaming books to other publishers operating under the OGL. Lest my meaning be lost or misconstrued, I am not opposed to über-gaming. No, no no! There is a place for it, but I think players should have to work long and hard to reach the levels when they can take on Powers. Earlier I mentioned DM's Option: High Level Gaming. I checked that out from the library a few years ago and spent two weeks developing a spell which -- theoretically! -- could reach from Abeir-Toril to Darkon and affect Azalin himself. It would have required my character to be at least three levels higher than he was, material components gathered from several planes and demiplanes, and a ritual casting circle of wizards who were already then at what is now called Epic level. It was, in fact, an Epic-level spell. DM's Option IS Epic level gaming, and it's good stuff. My character might have been killed ten times over just trying to get those material components -- losing a level each time! -- and it might have taken many years of real time before he could cast it -- with a chance of spell failure, of course! -- but it would have been darned satisfying even if the spell fried us all or sucked us into Ravenloft. That's what I determined was required to take on Azalin. An Eternal Elder Evil should be much harder than him. If players want to take on Powers, I say give them a chance -- after their characters have spent years preparing to do so. That's game years and real years. If someone has been gaming for five to ten years and nurtured a character all the way up to Epic level, let him do some Epic thing ... and then retire the character ... dead or alive. Most character will wind up dead from such attempts, but not even I am not so heartless as to deny a sporting chance to a player who has been working for years towards a single goal -- as long as he knows that he has a better chance of winning $100,000,000 in Power Ball than he has of succeeding against a creature who terrifies the gods themselves! Alas, I cannot prove a word of it. .
JWSIII 05-12-05, 05:50 AM	I absolutely think that players should spend real years to take on Elder Evils. The problem is that after a half yaer of play following the 13.33 encounters per level system, the players are level 20 - therefor, EEE's should be much higher CR precisely so that players cannot whonk them right out of the starting gate so to speak - Epic is, imo, designed so play can continue past a certain real life timeframe of 6 months playing 1/week. And any game that requires only six months of saturday nights to spank Kezef has lost a great deal of mystery and challenge imo.
Wil_Upchurch 05-12-05, 10:38 AM	I absolutely think that players should spend real years to take on Elder Evils. The problem is that after a half yaer of play following the 13.33 encounters per level system, the players are level 20 - therefor, EEE's should be much higher CR precisely so that players cannot whonk them right out of the starting gate so to speak - Epic is, imo, designed so play can continue past a certain real life timeframe of 6 months playing 1/week. And any game that requires only six months of saturday nights to spank Kezef has lost a great deal of mystery and challenge imo. I am quite amazed that your group gets through almost 10 level-appropriate encounters per game session! I don't even think we matched that playing through Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil or City of the Spider Queen. Sounds like an action-packed game! Believe me, guys, if I was infinite monkeys with infinite time, I'd write a Champions of Ruin book for each and every one of you. :)
Sammael_the_Chosen 05-12-05, 10:51 AM	Actually, assuming 2 games per week (and many younger people play even more frequently than that), that's an average of 4.9 appropriate-level encounters per session. Which is certainly not impossible. As for me, I am happy if I can manage to hold one game per week, and I rarely have more than one encounter per game (if even that).
Wil_Upchurch 05-12-05, 11:47 AM	Actually, assuming 2 games per week (and many younger people play even more frequently than that), that's an average of 4.9 appropriate-level encounters per session. Which is certainly not impossible. Yeah, I was assuming 1/week in his case, since that's what he said in his post. :P Not to wander too far off topic, but I don't think I've ever had a 6-month period of weekly games that averaged 5 level-appropriate XP-generating encounters. That's a heckuva run! As far as the EEEs are concerned, I don't think saying that I based their power on how long it would take a group to beat them would fly very well around here. ;) There's really not much to say other than what Rich and I already have. The EEEs are consistent with my design philosophy as well as that of WotC (which luckily match pretty well :) ), and I don't think their stats as presented countermand any previous writeups or lore. Elminster doesn't pull out his FR books and think "hmm, which monster should I kill today?" He doesn't want to risk his life to kill an elder evil willy nilly, otherwise he'd spend his time flying around killing everything he didn't like. There may be other reasons, too. Suppose he kills the Elf Eater while it is rampaging...think Malar's going to like that much? :D
Kuje31 05-12-05, 12:01 PM	I'm going to have to disagree with part of Friend's rant. :) After DM'ing in FR and even being a player in FR, no one tells me what I include in my games nor do I try to dictate to DM's what they include in thier games. I did it once and I heard about it forever. :) So what I'm saying here is Player's can by books and there are going to be times that they do know more then the DM. It's the "problem" sometimes of using a published world.
Wil_Upchurch 05-12-05, 12:36 PM	After DM'ing in FR and even being a player in FR, no one tells me what I include in my games nor do I try to dictate to DM's what they include in thier games. I did it once and I heard about it forever. :) Now you understand what's it like to be an author...*everyone* thinks we're trying to tell them what to do in their game! :P ;)
Chephren 05-15-05, 03:15 PM	I haven't read through the whole book, yet. Like many of the older gamers, priorities shift and change so that spending a whole night, pouring through the book until dawn isn't really an option anymore. But oh, the memories. ;) Anyway, when I read a FR book nowadays, I hit the crunchy bits first to see if there is anything interesting to grab my attention, or something I could suggest to my players. Once that is out of the way, then I move on to a long and indepth read into the fluff. I also enjoyed the additional information regarding magic items, and I hope that is a new format. I've tried time and time again to explain to my more powergamer players that magic items are special in some regard, but they haven't really grasped that concept yet since it's not really printed or in the rules. The prestige classes are interesting and I do enjoy the information regarding their role in the realms. Oh, and the arrow spells are very cool. One of my players is a playing a range-using assassin and will love to see these. While what I've read so far has been interesting, I was really hoping for more of a continuation of LoD. I guess more of a timeline update about the organizations that were described in the LoD. Maybe fleshing out organizations that haven't been represented yet in 3.X. As it stands, using both books in conjunction, a GM whould be very happy. Regardless, I enjoy the book. It will definitely add to my campaign, though I wish I had it during my last campaign (the "heroes" were evil or at least immoral/amoral). But then the same lament could be said for the upcoming Waterdeep book. It was set in said city. ;) I'd also like to give my opinion on the whole "Fiction vs stats" sub-topic. I really look at it like one looks at a movie based on the book. The book is often way better than the movie will ever be and the same can be said here. The author has a story to tell and they tell it. Often because fans demand it, the game company creates stats for the characters in the book. Maybe they match, maybe they don't, but ultimately the stats won't be as cool as the fiction version. Also, basing a creature's power purely on CR is really irrelevant if that creature is intelligent, or if the party is not prepared to encounter that type of creature. I've never taken CR seriously and only use it as a guideline. Oh, and finally. If something doesn't work, just adjust it. Countless times I've run something in FR that has been refuted by the books (and I'm pretty much a canon DM). Either I ignore it, or I explain it to my players and tell them that I'm the GM, this is how it works. I've lost a few powergamers, or rules lawyers that way, but am now left with players who enjoy my GMing style. Also, if something isn't written in the books, make it up. This is supposed to be a game of imagination and creativity, as well as butt-kicking and spell-slinging. Ed and his minions have delivered a TON of content over the years, which is cool, but it's not completely necessary. For GMs with little time to plan and create, the books are very useful. For GMs who are low on cash and have time to invest into their games, only the main books are really needed.
Freakboy 05-15-05, 08:16 PM	I'm a grouser, whiner, complainer, and cynic from childhood (thanks, Dad!), and I've been complaining for a year or more that the FR books WOTC is publishing include all of the information about locales, people, and things. It creates a situation in which a player who can out-spend his or her DM can play rules lawyer and argue from a position of legalistic superiority. (Not in any game of mine, of course, but not all DMs are as sophisticated and stone-hearted as I am.) Obviously it's more profitable for WOTC to publish books this way, and Hasbro milks WOTC as their corporate cash cow. We gamers would be much better served if "Player's Handbooks" didn't contradict "Campaign Settings" (like the one the DM owns), with declarations on their website and on the boards that the most recent book they have published is authoritative, no matter what earlier books say. Did the DM spend FORTY DOLLARS on the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting and ANOTHER THIRTY-THREE DOLLARS on Faiths and Avatars which categorically states that there are no other deities in the Realms than the ones named in that book? TOO BAD! One of the players just spent thirty dollars on Serpent Kingdoms and WOTC says that that is authoritative, not the SEVENTY-THREE DOLLARS in books spent by the DM. If a player can afford to spend $100 but a DM can only afford $70, the DM is screwed. Of course, Rule Zero (which isn't 0 in 3.$, anymore) still holds. The DM is always right. Except that WOTC says that a player who buys more of their books than the DM does is more right. Now, even a DM who has bought $100 or more in FR books may find himself or herself badgered by a player who has just spent THIRTY MORE DOLLARS to play one of these new evil races, or fight some new evil organization or ... :mad: Champions of Ruin may be terrific (and we have one of the co-authors telling us that it is), but if it contradicts anything in the books which I own, my players will not be allowed to over-rule me and my books. Instead of urging my players to buy new FR books, the message they all get from me, loud and clear, is: "If it's not in a book which I own, it doesn't exist, and any rule in a book which I don't own has no applicability. Period. End of report." I advised a potential player just a few days ago that he only needed to know about the area from whence his character hails (I like the idea of regional feats and I'll allow those, too), so he only needed to know one section of the Campaign Setting, and I suggested that he buy Faiths and Pantheons if he wanted to play a priest. Anything else his character will learn by adventuring. But ... player o' mine, don't tell me that Bane is god of this thing or that thing, because in my campaign he is still dead because my campaign is only a year on from the end of the Time of Troubles. Don't bother to buy the latest FR books, because if I don't have 'em and they contradict what I do have, I won't allow their content in my game. (People think I'm kidding when I urge them to buy me things from my Amazon.com Wish List. I'm not. The more books I own the more things I will allow in my campaign.) Oh, eventually my campaign will catch up with the current WOTC timeline for the game, and Bane will almost certainly come back from the dead, but he may not be the only one. The monster conquest of Zazesspur? One of my own, personal, player characters comes from there, so it may not happen. If Champions of Ruin or some other new book devotes a whole chapter to it, too d----d bad. Hence, I reiterate my frequent plea: ENOUGH WITH THE F'ING THIRTY AND FORTY DOLLAR HARDBACKS!!!!! I am quite happy with 2nd edition "perfect bound" products which would cost about $15 in today's money, and if there was a perfect bound book for the Sword Coast North, I would buy it. If there was was one for Calimport, I would buy it. Oh wait. There is a perfect bound book for Calimport, but it's out-of-print. I intend to buy it, though, and when I do, it will be the Calimport of my campaign, not the Calimport which is crammed into six pages of some hardback book which costs enough money to feed a family of six in the Sudan for a month. Believe me, if WOTC published dozens of $10-$15 perfect bound books on small geographical areas and revealed no "DM knowledge" in them, I would be quite happy to go out and buy one for East Spithole if a player has a character from there, but I'm not shelling out forty dollars just so that someone can introduce a favorite character into my campaign. If I don't have the book for that area, the player can roll up a new character. Harsh -- yes, but not as harsh as me being forced to spend hundreds of dollars for 3.$$$$ edition hardback books. I've got Cult of the Dragon, the 2nd edition book, as a PDF. If WOTC says, "No, that 'Cult of the Dragon' is no longer canon -- this ($30) 'Cult of the Dragon' is canon," my reply is that all I need to convert a 2nd edition book to 3rd edition is a piece of paper, a pencil, a calculator, and my copy of the conversion booklet. With those simple tools and my current collection of 2nd edition TSR adventures and setting books, I have more of Toril at hand than my players could ever possibly make it through in our real world lifetimes, and I will never need to buy another WOTC product again, worlds within worlds, amen. I suggest that Hasbro take my advice. Let them have WOTC publish a $15 perect bound book on The Dalelands, for instance. If they don't include "DM knowledge," I'm sure their relative margin of profit will be considerably higher and the level of player hostility to the company considerably lower. For those who insist on hardbacks, once a year they can issue a hardback which has the contents of three or four of the perfect bound books. I suspect that their highest return would come if they issued a hardback covering three areas and simultaneously published three separate perfect bound books covering exactly the same content, which together would cost more together than the hardback, creating an incentive for people who can afford them to buy the hardbacks, but allowing players and DMs who want information about one small region to happily buy the single (much cheaper) book for that area alone. *VO*L*U*M*E* is what they should be considering. Let's say that I want to send my players to Aglarond. Am I going to suggest that they all go out and spend THIRTY DOLLARS -- each! -- for Unapproachable East? Heck, no! But I have it, and I don't want my players having all of that secret "DM knowledge" with which it, like all their FR books is packed. If there was, however, a highly detailed perfect bound book about Aglarond which cost only $15, I'd suggest that they all go out and buy it. Which has the higher profit margin for Hasbro? One DM having one copy of Unapproachable East and telling his five players to absolutely, positively not buy it -- or one DM having one copy of Unapproachable East and telling his five players to go spend $15 each on a perfect bound book about Aglarond? (The DM would have to buy it, too, since such a book would certainly have to have more fine details than are in Unapproachable East.) Champions of Ruin has three new "races" for PCs, new prestie clas ... oh, heck, pull up any press release for any WOTC book -- they all say the same d----d thing! What else does it have? Details about secret, evil organizations -- except that they aren't secret! The players who are buying the book for the three new "races," etc., etc., aren't all going to voluntarily stop reading halfway through their THIRTY DOLLAR book just because their DM asks them to -- they bought it, so they are going to read it, and then whatever secret organizations are in the book become pointless to run because all of the players already know as much -- or more -- about them than the DM! If the DM has the players discover some cryptic rune tattooed on an NPC's arm, where's the adventure if every player automatically knows that it is the secret symbol of the International Jhamdaathan Conspiracy, whose current headquarters are located at Number 12 S l u t Street in Waterdeep, and the secret password to get in is, "Ooga-wunga-bunga," and anyone with their "secret" rune tattooed in that particular shade of burgindy on their right forearm is a 3rd level prestige class Mannish-acting Man who can shoot fire out of his left nostril as a supernatural class ability and can summon three pixies twice per day as a free action? Ah ... didn't something get lost along the way in Hasbro's eternal drive to squeeze more golden eggs out of the geese in Renton? Something called "mystery" or "surprise"? DM: You see someone who has a burgundy-colored tattoo on his right forearm. It is of a dragon swallowing an elf who is wearing a black Vera Wang. At the moment the man is facing the back door and ... Player: Oooh! He's a 3rd level Mannish-acting Man of the International Jhamdaathan Conspiracy! He's worth 250 x.p. if we pour cranberry juice into his left ear -- that's the only thing that kills them. DM: Okay, 250 x.p. divided by 5. 50 points each. Gee, look at the time, we've been playing for almost four minutes! See you all next week. You'll be facing a one-sixteenth kender, one-sixteenth tree sloth, one-eighth shadow dragon, one-eighth ghostwise halfling, one-eighth sahaugin, half-orc aasimar 6th-level Psionic Warrior/3rd-level Fighter/5th-level Wizard/5th-level Ranger who has the Blind Fighting feat, but you can kill him by firing an arrow made from Vile Tumtum Tree wood blessed by an 8th-level Shadow Weave-using/8th-level priestess of Shar named Doris. You will all get 150 x.p. So ... ah ... see you in two weeks when I'll have a real challenge for you.... So basically your biggest gripe is that WotC is trying to make money. You know, that they keep making new books to sell that have more appeal than detailed information on farmers in Dambrath. Of course they are going to make material that players want to buy to add new races, PRC's, feats, spells, etc. If they didn't, then they would run out of sellable material in oohhhh a year or two. If that happens, then they don't make ANY new products. Like it or not, WotC is a business that makes games. In order to continue to make money, they have to make products that people will buy that are new. If they don't, they go out of business and everyone is playing with the same group of 15 books they made the first year to keep those who don't have enough money to buy everything happy. If a player wants to go out and get CoR because it has a race he likes, I say go for it. If they are buying books, they are helping support my hobby. Candidly, noone in these forumns buys enough WotC products to keep the company in business if all WotC made was the books they wanted to see. WotC has to make products that a broad range of folks, from DM's, to players, to collectors, to folks who just want to read the latest new evil organization will buy. That is the point. To sell books. It would be great if it were about love or hope or peace or even making gamer geeks utterly blissful, but the reality is that they have to sell enough products to stay financially viable. Otherwise, no game. So they make books like this that people get excited about because the EEE are in them. Or they get it because they want to play a Draegloth. It would be great for DM's if it was a DM only book that you had to have a super secret DM decoder ring to decipher so the grubby players didn't get their hands on forbidden lore. It doesn't work that way though. A lot of players are DM's and vica versa. I'm sure that WotC product design is based off market research that shows what the "average" Forgotten Realms gamer wants to see. By making those books with appeal at many levels, they have the best chance of selling to the largest group of gamers. Getting mad because they aren't making 15$ perfect bounds about the intrigues for the average merchant in Calimport is pointless. There isn't a market worth acknowledging for such a highly specialized "niche" book that doesnt' have a direct application to the things typical adventuring parties do, like explore ancient ruins and delving into moldy dungeons. I haven't met a player yet that wants to play a spice merchant in Waterdeep. So why bother giving more than a few lines in the campaign setting or a blurb on a web enhancement about it? Who is going to buy it? I know you said you would, but in the bigger picture how many gamers would? Even the relatively small portion of FR gamers who visit this forumn are not necessarily an indication of the majority. That sort of info is best obtained by market research like the cards you can fill out and send in the back of many Realms products. I'm not trying to attack your position, I just think it is narrow minded. You are certainly entitled to think anything you like, but it isn't the most practical or realistic perspective IMO. Just some thoughts.
Meta_FR_DM 05-15-05, 08:21 PM	Hence, I reiterate my frequent plea: ENOUGH WITH THE F'ING THIRTY AND FORTY DOLLAR HARDBACKS!!!!! Spoken like someone who knows absolutely everything about publishing costs, has access to all customer feedback and doesn’t mind paying his employees pennies instead of dollars. God forbid game authors be allowed to feed their children. Dave -and they say I'm disruptive?- M.
Yokinobu 05-15-05, 10:24 PM	A shame the cost of these books can't be avoided, because I assure you many customers are deterred from paying for the hard version at their current price. Why pay $30 plus tax for a book when you can wait a month and a half later and download it in PDF format for free on any of several P2P programs?
Kuje31 05-15-05, 10:27 PM	A shame the cost of these books can't be avoided, because I assure you many customers are deterred from paying for the hard version at their current price. Why pay $30 plus tax for a book when you can wait a month and a half later and download it in PDF format for free on any of several P2P programs? Because some of us don't do that? I've never downloaded a RPG book that has been printed and sent to stores because I value my hard copies better then a computer file for many reasons. Now if it is a PDF that is never going to see print then I'll purchase it but I don't, and will not, download it over P2P places.
Karsus the Mad 05-15-05, 10:35 PM	Originally Posted by Yokinobu A shame the cost of these books can't be avoided, because I assure you many customers are deterred from paying for the hard version at their current price. Why pay $30 plus tax for a book when you can wait a month and a half later and download it in PDF format for free on any of several P2P programs? Because some of us don't do that? I've never downloaded a RPG book that has been printed and sent to stores because I value my hard copies better then a puter file. Now if it is a PDF that is never going to see print then I'll purchase it but I don't, and will not, download it over P2P places. I'm sure that's illegal somehow....And I doubt all the 3/3.5 D&D products found on such networks as Kaazalite and Imesh are legal. Either way, one, it's wrong, two, it hurts wotc (thus the writers who actually create the product), and third, it eventually hurts us players. I'm sure there's plenty of people that would rather have free products (who doesn't?), but I'd rather have the writers that created the product to get a nice check for all their work, thus encourage them to write even more great work. And to boot, downloading from such networks is dangerous. There's a lot of stuff firewalls and AV's simply can't detect/delete. So everytime you use those P2P's, you risk causing yourself a lot more money in damages than simply spending the money to get the real deal.
Sammael_the_Chosen 05-16-05, 02:53 AM	I believe the discussion of p2p file sharing in any form is wholly inappropriate for this forum. It may be illegal in some countries and legal in others, but it is certainly disrespectful towards the publisher to condone this form of piracy on their message boards.
GothicDan 05-16-05, 09:40 AM	I agree: Inappropriate to discussion. Also: I agree that the current price of the books is what is needed in our inflated economy to get the authors/WotC any sort of profit. I just happen to have a gi-freaking-gantic tuition to worry about, about which I have nightmares several times a week. Come on, scholarship. That being said, this is why I don't play for 3E FR books any more. The content isn't what I like, so I'm not paying to buy it. If books were published that I enjoyed more often (such as Serpent Kingdoms), then I might try to scrape up enough money (over the course of several months - literally) to buy it. And that's what these forums are for, really: getting opinions and feedback from the consumers. That's why so many of us "complain and whine" instead of ignore the printed material. That's just an utterly passive stance that will get you no where in life. If we want to try to change something, we have to be vocal about it, or else WotC will never know what we want.* *Note how I did not say what -all- of us want.
Demetrios 05-16-05, 11:46 AM	Hmm, at the risk of actually putting this thread back on topic, I have a couple of comments concerning the book that is the actual subject of the thread... First of all, it's been an interesting read thus far, and from what I've skimmed through of the rest, it looks to be very interesting... I love the idea of the anathema spell - I wonder why no one had thought of it before... One thing I do have a problem with is the "Fiend Lords and Spells" sidebar - not what is in it, but what was left out. It says (following BoVD) that after gaining the various feats listed, clerics can gain spells from powerful fiends. It lists example fiends - but fails to list which domains each one grants! I know the information can be found in other sources (such as BoVD again), but it would have been useful to have them listed here as well. And what about domains granted by Realms-specific fiends? Eltab has his granted domains listed, but Malkizid doesn't, nor are there any listed for other, less-detailed Realms fiends. A consolidated list for granted domains notable fiends would be very helpful...
Yokinobu 05-16-05, 11:58 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Because some of us don't do that? I've never downloaded a RPG book that has been printed and sent to stores because I value my hard copies better then a computer file for many reasons. Now if it is a PDF that is never going to see print then I'll purchase it but I don't, and will not, download it over P2P places. Obviously. Originally posted by Sammael_the_Chosen I believe the discussion of p2p file sharing in any form is wholly inappropriate for this forum. It may be illegal in some countries and legal in others, but it is certainly disrespectful towards the publisher to condone this form of piracy on their message boards. I condone nothing. I was simply pointing out the reasoning some D20 fans have for downloading PDF D20 books, including FR books, which is relevant considering the previous rant by FriendOfReligion. I would never partake in such piracy, but I would harmlessly mention the inescapable cycle thats is wholly detrimental to FR book production, profit, and quality. Sorry to keep this going, but I believe a few of you read me wrong, and felt that this misconception need to be addressed.
Bocklin 05-17-05, 03:27 AM	One thing I do have a problem with is the "Fiend Lords and Spells" sidebar - not what is in it, but what was left out. It says (following BoVD) that after gaining the various feats listed, clerics can gain spells from powerful fiends. It lists example fiends - but fails to list which domains each one grants! I know the information can be found in other sources (such as BoVD again), but it would have been useful to have them listed here as well. And what about domains granted by Realms-specific fiends? Eltab has his granted domains listed, but Malkizid doesn't, nor are there any listed for other, less-detailed Realms fiends. A consolidated list for granted domains notable fiends would be very helpful... "I had a Dream..." that this Thread will ever really be on topic. ;) But to come to your comment, Demetrios, I agree with you. I noticed it this week end and it is quite annoying. Another thing that is left out: what happens to the soul of a Cleric who devotes himself to an Fiend (by the way of that Feat) when he dies? Is it possible to Raise him? I might go post that one later on the designers thread (or maybe Will Upchurch is still on this Thread and has some tip for us?). Bocklin
Enslaved DM 05-17-05, 05:49 AM	Eldar Evils that aren't powerful enough to threaten gods is a screw up. All previous material supports that power level and dropping their power level down means someone dropped the ball. Slaad Lords that are lower CR than a Black Slaad is also a mistake. They don't rule because of law and tradition. The rule because of power (and maybe secret lore). Every other type of outsider has steady progression of power as you rise up the hierarchy and Slaad Lords have less reason than most to be an exception. BTW, that means they are weaker than the Death Slaad who guards the Spawning Stone.
Tempus665 05-17-05, 06:45 AM	Eldar Evils that aren't powerful enough to threaten gods is a screw up. All previous material supports that power level and dropping their power level down means someone dropped the ball. According to FR Adventures, a level 11 Wizard (Defender of Suzail) destroyed 4 dragons. Anything's possible.
Enslaved DM 05-17-05, 09:12 AM	11th level wizards can kill dragons. They can't kill really powerful dragons, but they can kill young and moderately powerful dragons. That doesn't address my complaint.
Wil_Upchurch 05-17-05, 01:15 PM	Another thing that is left out: what happens to the soul of a Cleric who devotes himself to an Fiend (by the way of that Feat) when he dies? Is it possible to Raise him? I might go post that one later on the designers thread (or maybe Will Upchurch is still on this Thread and has some tip for us?). I haven't received my books yet, and I didn't write those feats, so I'm afraid I can't be of much help there...sorry!
Gray Richardson 05-17-05, 02:00 PM	what happens to the soul of a Cleric who devotes himself to an Fiend (by the way of that Feat) when he dies? Is it possible to Raise him?Good question. When he dies his soul goes to the Fugue Plane to await pick up by his patron. That would be the fiend lord or his emissary. If he was keeping tabs on the soul he might know to send his emissary right away. Otherwise it will happen whenever he has time or inclination to check. Lets say it might take up to two weeks or even a month if the demon was not that organized. Baatezu probably have time tables as regular as clockwork for picking up their cultists, while Tanar'ri are more random and much less organized about such things. Yugoloths are probably somewhere in between. I would say the soul can be safely resurrected up until such time as it is collected by the fiend lord. After that, the fiend lord is not likely to allow any resurrection, as souls are a very valuable commodity on the fiendish planes, and archfiends want to hold on to every soul they can get.
Shemeska the Marauder 05-23-05, 02:07 AM	I would say the soul can be safely resurrected up until such time as it is collected by the fiend lord. After that, the fiend lord is not likely to allow any resurrection, as souls are a very valuable commodity on the fiendish planes, and archfiends want to hold on to every soul they can get. Ah yes. A person who worshipped a yugoloth lord dies and is used by the 'loths as petitioners generally are by them. A while later after all that hard scribe work by the arcanaloths of Gehenna there in their infernal sweatshops with ink stained hands, the mortal gets raised from the dead. A short time later a dozen mezzoloths show up to collect the library 'late fees' so to speak ;)
warlockco 05-23-05, 02:33 AM	Justice of Weald and Woe is earth-shatteringly broken. First of all, the class grants a set of truly amazing abilities to...the Eldreth Veluuthra, an organization that has maybe a total of 135 members. So how many people with this PRC are there? Maybe four? And if there are more members of the Eldreth Veluuthra out there, a little more detail on cell structure in the book would be nice. They might have created the PrC, but it isn't a PrC that is restricted to them. It is a PrC for defenders of Elvenkind, is my read on it.
Gray Richardson 05-23-05, 07:35 AM	Ah yes. A person who worshipped a yugoloth lord dies and is used by the 'loths as petitioners generally are by them. A while later after all that hard scribe work by the arcanaloths of Gehenna there in their infernal sweatshops with ink stained hands, the mortal gets raised from the dead. A short time later a dozen mezzoloths show up to collect the library 'late fees' so to speak ;)Ah, remind me to never borrow a book from a yugoloth. ;)
Ardashir 05-24-05, 11:53 AM	They might have created the PrC, but it isn't a PrC that is restricted to them. It is a PrC for defenders of Elvenkind, is my read on it. Fanatical to the point of insanity defenders of elvenkind, that is. I think they're a good, scary PrC for a campaign or adventure where you throw down with the Eldreth Veluuthra. BTW, while we're talking _Ruins_ PrCs here, let me add that I really like the Thayan Gladiator. Even if most PCs will spend more time wondering if they're getting ripped off by the Thayans as compared to being ripped apart, the info and such on the gladiator was just a lot of fun to me. Certainly they'll help dissuade anyone who thinks of harming the poor Red Wizards. The Avenging Knight will probably be of less use to me, as I've never been big on the Knights of the Shield (though they'd be of no small use to anyone in a North or Waterdeep campaign). And the Black Blood Cultists -- woo hoo! Though I wonder -- if they worship Malar, then why don't they wind up getting lycanthropy as well, either deliberately or by starting fights with therianthropes? Then again, someone has to be the flunky. And the Night Mask Slayer -- brr. Orbakh's 'new' outfit is getting as bad as the Zhentarim. The info on the villainous outfits was also appreciated on my end. Good to see old villains like the Cult of the Dragon & Zhents got remembered. Like the feats too, especially the 'Sworn to Yugoloths' and 'Sorrowsworn Knight'. 'Bout time the Yugoloths get their chops in the Realms... (Hey, Shemeska, you don't need any mortal representatives in the Realms, do you?) ;) One Feat question: did I read it right, or do the Feats involving Piercing and Slashing weapons only add one point of damage to every hit after the first in a round, while the one for Bludgeoning weapons adds 1d6? Was that a typo?
warlockco 05-24-05, 01:07 PM	One Feat question: did I read it right, or do the Feats involving Piercing and Slashing weapons only add one point of damage to every hit after the first in a round, while the one for Bludgeoning weapons adds 1d6? Was that a typo? In a different thread, we have come to a conclusion that it was a typo, mainly a "d6" getting lost. Reason being is the Table shows 1d6 and all othe other feats have 1d6, wouldn't make sense for Slashing to do just 1 point, and the other to do 1d6. Otherwise there is no reason to take Flay Foe. While the general rule is the body of text is more authoritive than that tables, I think in this case, we can go the other way around. Thanks Wil for point out my typo of typo :D
Wil_Upchurch 05-25-05, 06:34 PM	it was a type Typo. :devil: Sorry, go back to your regularly scheduled EEE-bashing. ;)
warlockco 05-25-05, 11:24 PM	Typo. :devil: Sorry, go back to your regularly scheduled EEE-bashing. ;) But I haven't bashed 3E in this thread..... :D
Bocklin 05-26-05, 03:18 AM	Sorry, go back to your regularly scheduled EEE-bashing. ;) Hey Will! Careful, please. The bashing was actually winding down and we had a real shot at bringing this Thread on topic... Let's not joke with that! ;) Bocklin
paradoxmage 05-26-05, 04:58 AM	Does anyone else think they screwed up the feat Flay Foe? The other feats like it (Skewer Foe and Pulverize Foe) each say 1d6 extra damage with each hit.
Bocklin 05-26-05, 05:00 AM	Does anyone else think they screwed up the feat Flay Foe? The other feats like it (Skewer Foe and Pulverize Foe) each say 1d6 extra damage with each hit. Check the fourth post before yours and you will have your reply! ;) Bocklin
Tempus665 05-27-05, 01:12 AM	I actually kinda like the new paper. :)
Yokinobu 05-28-05, 03:59 AM	I figured that the weakness of Flay Foe was a balance issue. Slashing weapons tend to be alot more common by my reckoning. By the way, Slad Chaos mentioned in the "Ask the Authors" thread about a feat on page 124 possessed by Leargath, called "Shadows of the Soul". I was wondering, Mr. Upchurch, if that was a feat that was considered but ultimately excluded from CoR for whatever reason. If it was, would you mind filling us in on its use? I haven't heard of it, but maybe it's a feat from another book. If that's the case, you need only name the source if you don't mind and I'll look it up myself. If this has already been addressed, then forgive my ignorance.
Tempus665 05-29-05, 03:46 AM	The only thing that bothers me (allow me to nitpick here) is that once again the book talks about weeks, not tendays.
Mumm-Ra 06-01-05, 01:24 PM	Someone on this thread mentioned something about a discrepancy between the eldreth veluuthra npc's in CoR and in LoD...as far as I am aware, the only difference is that some npc's have gained a lvl or two..the npc's are present in both books....
Guennarr 06-02-05, 09:33 AM	I like the content of the book, so I bought it. It nicely complements both FR- and D&D products published before. After all really evil adversaries are the "spice" in every campaign. I just wish that there had been some more information on motives for evil pcs/ npcs, and considerably less spells and magic items. It is not just because of my gaming group (which is not that much into magic *shrug*), I keep on wondering who is to use all these new spells? I dutifully bought all 3rd edition FR products so far, so there are already several hundred spells to choose from. So why spend most pages in this otherwise great supplement on even more spells and items?? Will there be ever a FR product which focuses on characters, organization, local habits, ethics (in other words: role playing aspects) and not on even more spells? A completely different topic is the relation of price and content. If I posted to the wrong thread, I beg your pardon. If this is the right thread, just read on: I consider it to be a bad trend, that "Champions of Ruin", as well as the upcoming "Waterdeep" just contains 160 pages - 15% less content with the same price tag on the back cover. Sure, WotC publishes by far the most beautifully illustrated D&D/ d20 products, still... . Most people would understand a modest price increase, if WotC explained it. This secretive strategy makes me feel... fooled, for a lack of a more fitting expression. What is other readers' opinion about this development? Does everyone in here feel ok about this hidden price increase? Again: if this is the wrong thread, don't flood me out, and btw.: obviously I am not a native speaker, so please don't pay too much attention to my grammar. ;-) Greetings from Cologne, Germany, Günther
Lord Arkhaven 06-02-05, 12:26 PM	Overall I enjoyed the book - as I do all the FR products. They are the best of the D&D line. I loved the Champions of Evil and hope there are more epic challanges along that line. Histories of legendary monsters is quite cool and very creative. High level games need more content. I liked that section of the book the best. Some decisions were just downright stupid, like turning the Corrupt Spell feat from a useful one into a worthless one that doesn't even follow the established metamagic rule set. One feat re-write is easy enough to ignore however. It has in fact become an all-too common practice. I am however greatly saddened by the rules editting. There are stats in that book like Damage Reduction 20/+2. There is a character with both Improved Critical and Keen and so his critical threat is listed as 15-20/x2. There are feats that are not found in any books and one character has seven levels of "Epic Wizard" or something like that. In short a great portion of this book was written in 3.0 and not properly updated. That someone so unlearned in the rules is stating out characters for WOTC is sad and that it is not being caught by editors makes it doubly so. Can WOTC not even staff writers who are knowledgeable in the product they are creating? If I found one or two errors I would not bother to say it but this book is loaded with indescrepancies. Again we are back to quality. WOTC seems to be abandoning the notion.
Alisttair 06-02-05, 12:38 PM	You gotta love the art work in this book, expecially the one of Dendar on page 141.
Lord Arkhaven 06-03-05, 11:09 AM	The artwork - as always - is quite good, though I no longer enjoy Baxa. His strokes are too vulgar and rushed looking. O'Connor make the game come alive for me. Everything he touches is awesome!
GothicDan 06-03-05, 12:42 PM	Re: Guenarr As far as the pricing goes, I've already personally summized my own sentiments. Too much money for a book that I'll only actually ever use at most a quarter of the material out of. As to there being too many spells? I'd be more concerned with the staggering number of Feats/Races/Prestige Classes that keep coming out. A Wizard can have an unlimited number of spells in his spellbook. However, characters most certainly cannot take an unlimited number of Feats/Races/Prestige Classes!
FishTyrant 06-06-05, 01:26 AM	In that vein of "too many prestige classes" let me quote from the upcoming DM's Guide 2. It's good policy to tightly limit the prestige classes available in your campaign. The prestige classes in the Dungeon Master's Guideand other sources are certainly not all-encompassing or definitive. They might not even be appropriate for your campaign. The best prestige classes for your campaign are the ones you tailor-make yourself. Now with WOTC plainly stating that the best prestige classes are the ones we create ourselves, why on earth are they printing up so many? Not to mention other companies throwing prestige classes around, as if they were copper pieces! I do apologize for the off topic remark, but I could not resist! :P
ruleslawyer 06-07-05, 01:28 AM	Because, in theory, they're meant to be design examples. However, I do agree that we've got enough "design examples" out there. I have to say that I fail to see what's so game-breaking about the Justice of Weald and Woe: Its abilities are too much a mixed bag to be all that (specialization, not diversity of abilities, is what tends to knock D&D game balance into a cocked hat; the incantatrix being a good example). What I found interesting about the PrCs in CoR was that I loved the way they were presented (context, organization details, sample NPCs) but loathed the PrCs themselves. A wannabe lycanthrope? A wannabe vampire? An almost-but-not-quite-good- enough blackguard? I really didn't see the utility of these classes. As to the NPCs: Look, the flavor text was fabulous. The stats were well-done in terms of consistency, and their abilities were interesting. Power levels are something that can be left to the individual DM to adjust; f'rex, I'm never going to have a PC party dare to fight any of these bad boys, so as far as I'm concerned, their CRs are irrelevant. Give the boys at Dicefreaks a run through these NPCs if you want someone to pump 'em up to godlike levels.
ywhtptgtfo 06-07-05, 04:50 AM	What doesn't make sense to me is that why would Shar try to undermine the City of Shade considering how devoted the city is to her cause.
warlockco 06-07-05, 05:31 AM	What doesn't make sense to me is that why would Shar try to undermine the City of Shade considering how devoted the city is to her cause. The City of Shade serves the High Prince first and foremost, devotion to Shar is an afterthought.