Cheers for Rich Baker...Jeers for Pazio publishing [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cheers for Rich Baker...Jeers for Pazio publishing [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dargoth
07-21-03, 05:07 AM Well I finally got Dungeon 101 and got to flip through Rich Bs Prison of the Flamebringer

Cheers for Rich Baker

Well done Rich POFB, is an awesome module I look forward to tormenting my PCs with it sometime in the future.

Have you thought about making more Slaad lords so theres a CN equvilant to the Arch Devils and Demon Princes (mind you there are several alignments that lack upper high level outsiders as well)

That was the good part of Dungeon 101

Which brings me to "Jeers for Pazio of Publishing"

Having read through Richs module I then turned the page..... Only to find that was it the next page was the back end of Polyhedron!

But wait I minute I was sure there was more than Prison of the Flamebringer on the contents page for Dungeon. and I was right there are TWO additional articles that arent present in my magazine. Upon closer inspection I found out why "BONUS SUBSCRIBER ONLY" yes a third of the magazine is missing

Apparently my $6.99 USD isnt worth the same as someone who gives pazio a $45 subscription, despite the fact we both bought the SAME magazine.

Well I am sorely tempted to report this to the ACCC (Australias consumer affairs watch dog)

It is illegal, here to discriminate against a consumer based on which vendor they bought their product from.

Needless to say Im disgusted and as such I will not be buying another Issues of Dungeon or Dragon magazine until this policy is revoked.

I am not a 2nd class customer and I will not be treated as such by Pazio Publishing.
Yamo
07-21-03, 06:22 AM Well I am sorely tempted to report this to the ACCC (Australias consumer affairs watch dog)

It is illegal, here to discriminate against a consumer based on which vendor they bought their product from.

Do it. I'm ******-off, too. If you have legal recourse and I don't, at least somebody can make those bums pay.
Masakado
07-21-03, 12:09 PM Originally posted by Dargoth

Apparently my $6.99 USD isnt worth the same as someone who gives pazio a $45 subscription, despite the fact we both bought the SAME magazine.

Here's a hypothetical:

I buy a general admin ticket to an Atlanta Braves game & sit in the nosebleed seats with the bleacher bums. My attendance is sporadic at best (I only go when they are playing the Mets).

Someone else buys a season pass & sits behind home plate. They are loyal Braves fans & rarely (if ever) miss a game.

The season pass holders show up regardless of the weather and regardless of the Braves' opposition.

We're both in the same stadium, watching the same game, but obviously, the season pass holder will probably enjoy his experience a lot more than I will.

What's the difference? As with anything, true membership has it's perks.

I do agree that the Paizo's policy stinks prima facea, and unless there is a guarantee that there will be a Realms-centered adventure in every edition of Dungeon, my purchasing of the magazine will continue to be sporadic at best.

On the other hand, I also respect Paizo's attempts to appease and reward those loyal readers who bothered to subscribe, and therefore support the title and not the content alone.

Perhaps if Paizo truly added something extra for subscribers (Bonus CD, DM sheets) instead of leaving out a third of the magazine for we fair-weather buyers, there wouldn't be so much anger & venom.

While it's true that you are by no means a 2nd Class customer, Dargoth, it's probably also true that you do not support the magazine as much as a subscriber does, or would.
Another Gnome
07-21-03, 02:30 PM Well, I for one don't mind if a magazine gives free treats to subscribers, but actually cutting out something that's mentioned in the table of content sounds more like cheating than advertising.

I don't know if Paizo actually needs to care one bit about Australian laws in this situation or if they can simply refer to some loophole, but best of luck to you anyway if you do report them, Dargoth.
Masakado
07-21-03, 02:56 PM Originally posted by Another Gnome
Well, I for one don't mind if a magazine gives free treats to subscribers, but actually cutting out something that's mentioned in the table of content sounds more like cheating than advertising.

Whether or not the material is indeed cut is subject to interpretation, as is the notion of what constitutes "bonus material."

As mentioned before, the Table of Contents does show, in a roundabout way, that the material is included as a bonus for subscribers.

From my POV, a third of the magazine is missing, but I am a non-subscriber.
Another Gnome
07-21-03, 03:03 PM As mentioned before, the Table of Contents does show, in a roundabout way, that the material is included as a bonus for subscribers.

Aye, and I doubt any complaints actually hold water because of that. Still, it doesn't seem like a good way of advertising a product to me.
Masakado
07-21-03, 03:37 PM Aye, and I doubt any complaints actually hold water because of that. Still, it doesn't seem like a good way of advertising a product to me.

I completely agree.

As I mentioned before, I've no qualms with Paizo rewarding loyal customers. However, this way seems to further alienate those of us who do occasionaly pick up a copy of Dungeon when it has something that we specifically want to see.

If it had more Realms specific material (I like to run adventures on the fly & don't like to waste time converting a homebrew adventure) I'd purchase the magazine more often.

I'm not there yet, but when I get to the point where I feel like Dargoth (ie. it's worse than poor marketing, it's abuse) then I will follow his lead & boycott the publication.

As it stands now, with WoTC out of the module making biz & myself having a wife & child to take care of, I have precious few moments in which to craft something for a session and fewer options when it comes to ready-made material for game night.

Dungeon has always been the DM's friend up to this point.
Ranger REG
07-21-03, 04:28 PM Wise Gentlemen (and I say that loosely ... very loosely),

Before you get into that mob rage mentality, write to Paizo regarding the missing content.

Oh, and keep your letter short and to the point, without any snide comments that would only demean yourself to that of a neanderthal.

:bored:
Masakado
07-21-03, 04:45 PM Originally posted by Ranger REG
Wise Gentlemen (and I say that loosely ... very loosely).

Thanks for starting your post off with this!

Lets me know that I don't need to read the rest of it.

:rolleyes:
Another Gnome
07-21-03, 05:12 PM Ranger REG, I don't read Dungeon often enough to actually care, I'm just saying that Paizo has a really weird business strategy (trying to attract customers by penalizing them instead of rewarding), and I support Dargoth's point of view in this out of principle. It's an image thing more than a rational issue.

Sure, one might call me a hypocrite for complaining about this all the while jumping to WotC's defense wherever the revision is concerned, but hell do I care. The best thing about principles is that I can change mine to whatever suits me best.

[Edit: Hmph. Apparently I don't read the magazine enough to even name it correctly...]
Dargoth
07-21-03, 08:07 PM Originally posted by Another Gnome
Well, I for one don't mind if a magazine gives free treats to subscribers, but actually cutting out something that's mentioned in the table of content sounds more like cheating than advertising.

I don't know if Paizo actually needs to care one bit about Australian laws in this situation or if they can simply refer to some loophole, but best of luck to you anyway if you do report them, Dargoth.

They do actually

If a company sells there product in a country then they are subject to that countries laws and regulations..

Incidently there was a court case in Australia between an The Wallstreet journal and an Australian buisness men who accused the WSJ of slandering him.

The wallstreet journal lawyers tried to argue that as the publication was written and published in the US then the case should be tried in the US (Where the ceiling for awards for slander is lower than Australia)

However the Australian courts ruled that didnt matter where it was published it was where it was read that counts and court ruled that the lawsuit would take place in Australia.

While my beef with Pazio isnt about slander its about consumer rights, the above court case does show that foreign companys are subject to Australian laws and regulations regardless as to whether they have a presence in this country or not
Darth K'Trava
07-21-03, 09:35 PM This is common for Paizo. They do the same thing with the SW Insider magazine. Although the extra subscriber stuff isn't crucial like in this case. It's more the fun fannish stuff that's added in. Articles should all be present be it either a subscriber edition or newstand...
Celtavian
07-22-03, 02:33 AM Heck, I didn't even notice. I bought it for the module and didn't much care about the other content. If the content is worth the trouble then boycott, if it isn't, don't worry about it.
jayberg
07-22-03, 03:24 AM The problem is...

Paizo doesn't do international subscriptions!!

And that is one heck of a problem!!!

I was a subscriber until Paizo took over. Nevermind that they never let me know that they wouldn't continue my subscription. Now I just don't have any way to get the subscriber only content. :smirk:

I don't want to rant. I just think that their business strategy does lack a lot. Like international subscriptions....
sanishiver
07-22-03, 03:48 AM Dargoth,

I have to say I think the net result of an effort to "report" Paizo would be them deciding it's better not to sell in Australia to begin with. :(

Paizo is well within their right to: Choose to publish bonus content for subscribers. To choose to make it known so people will (hopefully) subscribe instead of buy randomly. To choose not to do international subscriptions.

That's not breaking the law...that's just life. ;)

Besides, you missed out on a single 7 page, mid-level, non-world specific adventure, that would have increased your page count from ~125 to ~132.

$6.99 is easily worth 125 pages.

And what about the economics? Can Paizo expect to make back the money it would need to spend in order to print 7 more pages for every magazine? Better to spend a little extra and keep your regulars.

Just some food for thought.

:cool:
Dargoth
07-22-03, 05:01 AM Originally posted by sanishiver
Dargoth,

I have to say I think the net result of an effort to "report" Paizo would be them deciding it's better not to sell in Australia to begin with. :(

Paizo is well within their right to: Choose to publish bonus content for subscribers. To choose to make it known so people will (hopefully) subscribe instead of buy randomly. To choose not to do international subscriptions.

That's not breaking the law...that's just life. ;)

Besides, you missed out on a single 7 page, mid-level, non-world specific adventure, that would have increased your page count from ~125 to ~132.

$6.99 is easily worth 125 pages.

And what about the economics? Can Paizo expect to make back the money it would need to spend in order to print 7 more pages for every magazine? Better to spend a little extra and keep your regulars.

Just some food for thought.

:cool:

umm excuse me?

Its 18 pages at least

"The chasm bridge" is 18 pages by itself and theres a "Map of Mystery article" after that

As for spending money

Pazio are wasting money by doing Two runs of the magazine same magazine which I bet you there passing onto the consumer.

Inshort the whole idea of doing two version of the magazine is stupid in the exstreme and not to mention costly.

Its obvious that whoever wrote Pazios Buisness plan had a previous job as a village idiot

and no your wrong

Pazio are not within there rights, Pazio are involved in Monopolistic trading which is against the law.

in the same way Microsoft isnt allowed to sell a complete version of Win XP at one store but only sell partial version at other stores

Pazios conduct is Monopolistic
Thrudjelmer
07-22-03, 08:38 AM Well, if the start cutting content from Dragon Magazine in a like fashion, they'll definitely be losing me as a customer. As it is, I rarely buy Dungeon so I hadn't noticed.
Patrakis
07-22-03, 12:46 PM On the subject of international subscription i have to disagree.

They offer subscription to Canadians (I know American tend to forget that big nation to the north), and through the internet.

On the subject of bonus content to subscriber, i must say i subscribed when i realised i missed potential great stuff. Now i get my mag cheaper and i get more material (like the DM screen in 310) free.

It beats sueing them or anything like that. So much energy wasted on something so trivial.

Consumer rights??

Geez.

I dont know how many issue you buy in a year but for me, buying 6 issues was costing me the same amount as a year subscription. So unless you buy less than that, it's not even worth not subscribing.
VengefulGazeofGod
07-22-03, 01:12 PM They should just stop distribution of there products in Australia.
And, how are they involved in any type of monopoly?
:cool:
Dargoth
08-12-03, 08:51 PM It would seem Pazio do listen after all

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1062508#post1062508

Erik Mona: I'm killing the subscriber section. You heard it here first. Many, many, many readers complained that this section unfairly harmed retailers, and the idea seemed to annoy more people than it pleased. Again, this simplifies things. Determining what's in this month's Dungeon shouldn't be a math problem
Another Gnome
08-13-03, 03:51 AM Well, I guess some cheering is in order then:

:bounce:

Good for you! And hopefully for them as well!
Dargoth
08-13-03, 05:09 AM Originally posted by Another Gnome
Well, I guess some cheering is in order then:

:bounce:

Good for you! And hopefully for them as well!

Apparently theres another FR module coming out in Dungeon 103 set in the Silver marches

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dargoth 07-21-03, 05:07 AM	Well I finally got Dungeon 101 and got to flip through Rich Bs Prison of the Flamebringer Cheers for Rich Baker Well done Rich POFB, is an awesome module I look forward to tormenting my PCs with it sometime in the future. Have you thought about making more Slaad lords so theres a CN equvilant to the Arch Devils and Demon Princes (mind you there are several alignments that lack upper high level outsiders as well) That was the good part of Dungeon 101 Which brings me to "Jeers for Pazio of Publishing" Having read through Richs module I then turned the page..... Only to find that was it the next page was the back end of Polyhedron! But wait I minute I was sure there was more than Prison of the Flamebringer on the contents page for Dungeon. and I was right there are TWO additional articles that arent present in my magazine. Upon closer inspection I found out why "BONUS SUBSCRIBER ONLY" yes a third of the magazine is missing Apparently my $6.99 USD isnt worth the same as someone who gives pazio a $45 subscription, despite the fact we both bought the SAME magazine. Well I am sorely tempted to report this to the ACCC (Australias consumer affairs watch dog) It is illegal, here to discriminate against a consumer based on which vendor they bought their product from. Needless to say Im disgusted and as such I will not be buying another Issues of Dungeon or Dragon magazine until this policy is revoked. I am not a 2nd class customer and I will not be treated as such by Pazio Publishing.
Yamo 07-21-03, 06:22 AM	Well I am sorely tempted to report this to the ACCC (Australias consumer affairs watch dog) It is illegal, here to discriminate against a consumer based on which vendor they bought their product from. Do it. I'm ******-off, too. If you have legal recourse and I don't, at least somebody can make those bums pay.
Masakado 07-21-03, 12:09 PM	Originally posted by Dargoth Apparently my $6.99 USD isnt worth the same as someone who gives pazio a $45 subscription, despite the fact we both bought the SAME magazine. Here's a hypothetical: I buy a general admin ticket to an Atlanta Braves game & sit in the nosebleed seats with the bleacher bums. My attendance is sporadic at best (I only go when they are playing the Mets). Someone else buys a season pass & sits behind home plate. They are loyal Braves fans & rarely (if ever) miss a game. The season pass holders show up regardless of the weather and regardless of the Braves' opposition. We're both in the same stadium, watching the same game, but obviously, the season pass holder will probably enjoy his experience a lot more than I will. What's the difference? As with anything, true membership has it's perks. I do agree that the Paizo's policy stinks prima facea, and unless there is a guarantee that there will be a Realms-centered adventure in every edition of Dungeon, my purchasing of the magazine will continue to be sporadic at best. On the other hand, I also respect Paizo's attempts to appease and reward those loyal readers who bothered to subscribe, and therefore support the title and not the content alone. Perhaps if Paizo truly added something extra for subscribers (Bonus CD, DM sheets) instead of leaving out a third of the magazine for we fair-weather buyers, there wouldn't be so much anger & venom. While it's true that you are by no means a 2nd Class customer, Dargoth, it's probably also true that you do not support the magazine as much as a subscriber does, or would.
Another Gnome 07-21-03, 02:30 PM	Well, I for one don't mind if a magazine gives free treats to subscribers, but actually cutting out something that's mentioned in the table of content sounds more like cheating than advertising. I don't know if Paizo actually needs to care one bit about Australian laws in this situation or if they can simply refer to some loophole, but best of luck to you anyway if you do report them, Dargoth.
Masakado 07-21-03, 02:56 PM	Originally posted by Another Gnome Well, I for one don't mind if a magazine gives free treats to subscribers, but actually cutting out something that's mentioned in the table of content sounds more like cheating than advertising. Whether or not the material is indeed cut is subject to interpretation, as is the notion of what constitutes "bonus material." As mentioned before, the Table of Contents does show, in a roundabout way, that the material is included as a bonus for subscribers. From my POV, a third of the magazine is missing, but I am a non-subscriber.
Another Gnome 07-21-03, 03:03 PM	As mentioned before, the Table of Contents does show, in a roundabout way, that the material is included as a bonus for subscribers. Aye, and I doubt any complaints actually hold water because of that. Still, it doesn't seem like a good way of advertising a product to me.
Masakado 07-21-03, 03:37 PM	Aye, and I doubt any complaints actually hold water because of that. Still, it doesn't seem like a good way of advertising a product to me. I completely agree. As I mentioned before, I've no qualms with Paizo rewarding loyal customers. However, this way seems to further alienate those of us who do occasionaly pick up a copy of Dungeon when it has something that we specifically want to see. If it had more Realms specific material (I like to run adventures on the fly & don't like to waste time converting a homebrew adventure) I'd purchase the magazine more often. I'm not there yet, but when I get to the point where I feel like Dargoth (ie. it's worse than poor marketing, it's abuse) then I will follow his lead & boycott the publication. As it stands now, with WoTC out of the module making biz & myself having a wife & child to take care of, I have precious few moments in which to craft something for a session and fewer options when it comes to ready-made material for game night. Dungeon has always been the DM's friend up to this point.
Ranger REG 07-21-03, 04:28 PM	Wise Gentlemen (and I say that loosely ... very loosely), Before you get into that mob rage mentality, write to Paizo regarding the missing content. Oh, and keep your letter short and to the point, without any snide comments that would only demean yourself to that of a neanderthal. :bored:
Masakado 07-21-03, 04:45 PM	Originally posted by Ranger REG Wise Gentlemen (and I say that loosely ... very loosely). Thanks for starting your post off with this! Lets me know that I don't need to read the rest of it. :rolleyes:
Another Gnome 07-21-03, 05:12 PM	Ranger REG, I don't read Dungeon often enough to actually care, I'm just saying that Paizo has a really weird business strategy (trying to attract customers by penalizing them instead of rewarding), and I support Dargoth's point of view in this out of principle. It's an image thing more than a rational issue. Sure, one might call me a hypocrite for complaining about this all the while jumping to WotC's defense wherever the revision is concerned, but hell do I care. The best thing about principles is that I can change mine to whatever suits me best. [Edit: Hmph. Apparently I don't read the magazine enough to even name it correctly...]
Dargoth 07-21-03, 08:07 PM	Originally posted by Another Gnome Well, I for one don't mind if a magazine gives free treats to subscribers, but actually cutting out something that's mentioned in the table of content sounds more like cheating than advertising. I don't know if Paizo actually needs to care one bit about Australian laws in this situation or if they can simply refer to some loophole, but best of luck to you anyway if you do report them, Dargoth. They do actually If a company sells there product in a country then they are subject to that countries laws and regulations.. Incidently there was a court case in Australia between an The Wallstreet journal and an Australian buisness men who accused the WSJ of slandering him. The wallstreet journal lawyers tried to argue that as the publication was written and published in the US then the case should be tried in the US (Where the ceiling for awards for slander is lower than Australia) However the Australian courts ruled that didnt matter where it was published it was where it was read that counts and court ruled that the lawsuit would take place in Australia. While my beef with Pazio isnt about slander its about consumer rights, the above court case does show that foreign companys are subject to Australian laws and regulations regardless as to whether they have a presence in this country or not
Darth K'Trava 07-21-03, 09:35 PM	This is common for Paizo. They do the same thing with the SW Insider magazine. Although the extra subscriber stuff isn't crucial like in this case. It's more the fun fannish stuff that's added in. Articles should all be present be it either a subscriber edition or newstand...
Celtavian 07-22-03, 02:33 AM	Heck, I didn't even notice. I bought it for the module and didn't much care about the other content. If the content is worth the trouble then boycott, if it isn't, don't worry about it.
jayberg 07-22-03, 03:24 AM	The problem is... Paizo doesn't do international subscriptions!! And that is one heck of a problem!!! I was a subscriber until Paizo took over. Nevermind that they never let me know that they wouldn't continue my subscription. Now I just don't have any way to get the subscriber only content. :smirk: I don't want to rant. I just think that their business strategy does lack a lot. Like international subscriptions....
sanishiver 07-22-03, 03:48 AM	Dargoth, I have to say I think the net result of an effort to "report" Paizo would be them deciding it's better not to sell in Australia to begin with. :( Paizo is well within their right to: Choose to publish bonus content for subscribers. To choose to make it known so people will (hopefully) subscribe instead of buy randomly. To choose not to do international subscriptions. That's not breaking the law...that's just life. ;) Besides, you missed out on a single 7 page, mid-level, non-world specific adventure, that would have increased your page count from ~125 to ~132. $6.99 is easily worth 125 pages. And what about the economics? Can Paizo expect to make back the money it would need to spend in order to print 7 more pages for every magazine? Better to spend a little extra and keep your regulars. Just some food for thought. :cool:
Dargoth 07-22-03, 05:01 AM	Originally posted by sanishiver Dargoth, I have to say I think the net result of an effort to "report" Paizo would be them deciding it's better not to sell in Australia to begin with. :( Paizo is well within their right to: Choose to publish bonus content for subscribers. To choose to make it known so people will (hopefully) subscribe instead of buy randomly. To choose not to do international subscriptions. That's not breaking the law...that's just life. ;) Besides, you missed out on a single 7 page, mid-level, non-world specific adventure, that would have increased your page count from ~125 to ~132. $6.99 is easily worth 125 pages. And what about the economics? Can Paizo expect to make back the money it would need to spend in order to print 7 more pages for every magazine? Better to spend a little extra and keep your regulars. Just some food for thought. :cool: umm excuse me? Its 18 pages at least "The chasm bridge" is 18 pages by itself and theres a "Map of Mystery article" after that As for spending money Pazio are wasting money by doing Two runs of the magazine same magazine which I bet you there passing onto the consumer. Inshort the whole idea of doing two version of the magazine is stupid in the exstreme and not to mention costly. Its obvious that whoever wrote Pazios Buisness plan had a previous job as a village idiot and no your wrong Pazio are not within there rights, Pazio are involved in Monopolistic trading which is against the law. in the same way Microsoft isnt allowed to sell a complete version of Win XP at one store but only sell partial version at other stores Pazios conduct is Monopolistic
Thrudjelmer 07-22-03, 08:38 AM	Well, if the start cutting content from Dragon Magazine in a like fashion, they'll definitely be losing me as a customer. As it is, I rarely buy Dungeon so I hadn't noticed.
Patrakis 07-22-03, 12:46 PM	On the subject of international subscription i have to disagree. They offer subscription to Canadians (I know American tend to forget that big nation to the north), and through the internet. On the subject of bonus content to subscriber, i must say i subscribed when i realised i missed potential great stuff. Now i get my mag cheaper and i get more material (like the DM screen in 310) free. It beats sueing them or anything like that. So much energy wasted on something so trivial. Consumer rights?? Geez. I dont know how many issue you buy in a year but for me, buying 6 issues was costing me the same amount as a year subscription. So unless you buy less than that, it's not even worth not subscribing.
VengefulGazeofGod 07-22-03, 01:12 PM	They should just stop distribution of there products in Australia. And, how are they involved in any type of monopoly? :cool:
Dargoth 08-12-03, 08:51 PM	It would seem Pazio do listen after all http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1062508#post1062508 Erik Mona: I'm killing the subscriber section. You heard it here first. Many, many, many readers complained that this section unfairly harmed retailers, and the idea seemed to annoy more people than it pleased. Again, this simplifies things. Determining what's in this month's Dungeon shouldn't be a math problem
Another Gnome 08-13-03, 03:51 AM	Well, I guess some cheering is in order then: :bounce: Good for you! And hopefully for them as well!
Dargoth 08-13-03, 05:09 AM	Originally posted by Another Gnome Well, I guess some cheering is in order then: :bounce: Good for you! And hopefully for them as well! Apparently theres another FR module coming out in Dungeon 103 set in the Silver marches