Post/Author/DateTime	Post
18DELTA 10-10-07, 10:56 PM	Chris Perkins Blog (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14049296#post14049296) For the past several days, I've been fighting off the plague that's creeping through the office. Congestion, runny nose, sore throat, restless nights. I didn't need to take sick days, but I've had just about all the chicken soup I can stomach. Speaking of plagues, I'd like to use this blog entry to talk a little bit about the 4th Edition incarnation of the Forgotten Realms campaign setting. For the past year, we've been seeding our books with hints of what's to come, but rumors and spoilers really started to fly with the recent release of The Grand History of the Realms (which advances the FR timeline by 10 years) and R.A. Salvatore's The Orc King. Both books make reference to something called the Spellplague. Before I talk about the origins of the Spellplague, let me back up. As R&D began work on 4th Edition mechanics and world-building, we knew that decisions made would have a ripple effect on our existing campaign settings. For example, changes to the 4E magic system would require us to revisit how magic behaves on our shared worlds. Two years ago at Gen Con, members of the R&D and Book Publishing teams (Bill Slavicsek, myself, Phil Athans, Rich Baker, and others) met secretly with several FR novelists (including Ed Greenwood and R.A. Salvatore) to present our thoughts about 4E FR, gather feedback, bat around ideas, and talk about "the big stories" that could be told in novels. Following this summit meeting, Phil Athans (our manager of Book Publishing), Rich Baker, and Bruce Cordell started to put together a first draft of the 4th Edition FR Story Bible, which FR novelists could then use as a reference guide. This bible contained, among many other things, the first words written about the Spellplague. The Spellplague is an event that allows us to incorporate 4th Edition elements into the existing scheme of the world. The Grand History of the Realms very briefly describes the events that trigger the Spellplague, so I won't steal that book's thunder here. However, I believe the Spellplague is a very elegant way to merge the current campaign setting with 4E. It allows us to keep all the things about FR that are good about the Realms and jettison the things that are bad for the Realms or haven't gained much traction with the FR community. There are things about the Spellplague that we deliberately haven't revealed — yet. Once we realized the impact of 4E revisions to the FR world, we dove deep into existing Realmslore to find something that would enable us to merge 4E and FR in a way that didn't involve gods stomping across the face of Faerûn. And we found it. We even dropped a hint in the final print issue of Dragon magazine earlier this year. Don't believe me? Check out the "Unsolved Mysteries of D&D" article in Dragon #359. (Hats off to the fan on the FR message boards who actually picked up on it.) We've also dropped a hint or two in recent book products, including Expedition to Undermountain (which ties the fate of Halaster to the impending Spellplague) and the adventure trilogy of Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave, Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land, and Anauroch: The Empire of Shade. Hints aside, I'd like to take a moment to share 10 important things worth knowing about the 4E Forgotten Realms: (1) It's a D&D campaign setting and an FR campaign setting. It feels like FR, but also it uses 4E game mechanics and incorporates all 4E races and classes. The Spellplague and its effects on the world enable us to integrate new 4E mechanics and world elements into the setting in a manner that doesn't require us to ignore canon or rewrite history. Large parts of the world won't be affected horribly. We're not going to destroy Cormyr, level Waterdeep, or blow up Silverymoon, for instance. We like these places as much as anyone. However, there are some parts of the world that aren't quite so beloved and don't have much happening in or around them. Many of these areas are likely to undergo some level of change. (2) 4E FR embraces, at least in part, the "points of light" concept talked about on D&D Insider. There will be places in 4E FR that haven't been explored or mapped. Some of these "dark areas" may be explored in novels; most will be set aside for DMs who want to insert their own cool stuff into the campaign setting. In effect, the Spellplague allows us to put some of the "forgotten" back into the Forgotten Realms. (3) In 4E FR, the PCs matter. The PCs are the ones accomplishing the truly heroic quests. There aren't a bunch of high-level NPCs running around who can step in to clean up the PCs' messes or do things the PCs can't. (4) FR novels will remain part of the FR canon. As with previous editions, DMs are free (even encouraged) to run FR campaigns that ignore canonical elements that don't suit their individual campaigns. (5) Running adventures and campaigns in 4E FR doesn't require encyclopedic knowledge of Realms history. Anyone who reads the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide will feel like they can run a Realms-based adventure or campaign without treading on thousands of years of history. The Grand History of the Realms nicely encapsulates all of the setting's pertinent historical moments; the 4E books will focus more on the present and provide DMs with the tools they need to run exciting FR adventures across all of Faerûn. (6) The 4E FR setting will have a smaller pantheon. In general, there will be less overlap in the gods' portfolios. Consequently, some 3E deities have been 'demoted,' effectively becoming agents or emissaries of more powerful gods. A handful of deities have been killed off. There are also a few new deities to fill holes. (7) Elminster and Drizzt are still around in 4E FR, as are several other iconic FR characters (including many popular campaign villains). On that note, FR wouldn't be FR without the contributions of Ed Greenwood and R.A. Salvatore. Two years ago, Ed and Bob expressed some initial concern about advancing the FR timeline; however, they quickly realized that the change gave them the "space" to tell more interesting stories, reveal some new characters, and write about some new places in the world. Ed and Bob are on deck to receive the 4E rules documents shortly, and in addition to his other FR commitments, Ed will be contributing 50,000 words to the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide releasing in August 2008. (8) Writing of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide began in early 2006 with the geography chapter, and we intend to have a complete first draft before the end of the year. The book's format is much more user-friendly; the book also features an index. (9) 4E FR will receive a lot of continuing support on D&D Insider, in the form of an official wikipedia, regular Dragon® articles, Dungeon® adventures, and online tools (including FR race options for the D&D Character Creator). In all, there will be more Realms support online than we were ever able to provide in the printed magazines, largely because we're no longer limited by page count. (10) Numerous individuals have contributed to the shaping of 4E FR. If you don't like what you hear, I urge you to point your accusing finger at me. I am the D&D story manager, so world design pretty much falls to me and collaterally to my team of designers (see my closing remarks, below). - - - - - Closing Remarks Some FR fans have accused Rich Baker of killing FR with this latest revision, probably because Rich has been R&D's voice to the FR community for the past several years (a role he fulfills voluntarily, I might add). I don't know anyone who loves the Realms more than Rich save Elminster himself, so let's not wallow in ignorance here. As I said above, there is no one person leading the 4E relaunch of the FR campaign setting. It's a team effort. Rich has certainly been involved in 4E FR from the start, but so have Bruce Cordell, James Wyatt, and others. Rich, Bruce, and James all report to me, so if you have issues, send them my way. That said, we in R&D are tickled by the "Rich Baker must be stopped!" campaign. In fact, we're thinking about getting t-shirts made. (Our "Scott Rouse must be stopped!" t-shirts are looking a bit worn out.) Seriously, guys, Rich is tremendously invested in the Realms (his FR novel Condemnation made the New York Times best-seller list, ya know!). Please don't make him wish he was an Eberron fan! Let me close by saying that we'll be shedding more light on 4E FR in the coming months (mostly on D&D Insider), as we get closer to the release date. The story we've cooked up for the Realms is really cool — I'm talking Hollywood blockbuster cool — and I guarantee that new fans and old fans alike will have good reason to play in FR campaigns. 18D:P
MarkusTay63 10-10-07, 11:08 PM	Elegant? I suppose thats one way of looking at it... At least he said 'hats off' to me. :D Amazing how he is basically admitting to EVERYTHING I've been saying for the last month or so. They're bringing back Abeir, and making more room for the writers to write. Wasn't Condemnation one of those self-serving Drow novels?
18DELTA 10-10-07, 11:11 PM	So MarkusTay63, figured it out? If so what was it? "Chris Perkins must be stopped!!!":pbbbtt:
Dark Wizard 10-10-07, 11:43 PM	I'm glad the designers are showing this side of them, it's a bit defensive, a bit wait-and-see, a bit fun, a bit "Don't-you-think-we-know-what-we're-doing". Overall a more lively side to them, they showed confidence in their work and lots of it, so that's somewhat good. Then again, maybe each designer wants their name to be on the "(Insert Designer Here) Must Be Stopped" T-Shirts. :D I think they might have wanted the initial wave of negativity. They wanted it to pass over and possibly to see an natural reaction from fans without designer input. Then they step in for damage control to a more friendly environment once the vitriol boiled over. (Notice the increased number of designer replies after a short time and Rich Baker answering more questions despite the criticism.) A few points (1 & 2). They're keeping the famous places intact apparently. Though they want to "forget" some places. This might work, but it might throw a wrench into peoples games even more. I've read a lot of gamer campaigns that focus on the other areas (non-core/Heartlands areas) in order to avoid the Chosen and nemeses. I think there are more games running in the side areas than WotC thinks. On points 3 and 4, I'm going to ask for such to be stated clearly in the FRCS. I don't want to see people complaining about lack of player and DM freedom anymore. Point 5, honestly I figured the original FRCS 3e was this already. Again, state that the FRCS is all that's needed to run an FR game and not mountains of previous publications. Some people are harder to get through to than others. Point 6, new gods, that's more like it. Enough with this negativity sink, WotC want us to feel less doom and gloom, ease up on the Doom Sayer lingo and show us something new that's worth reading about. Point 7, that actually sounds like the natural reaction Ed and RAS might have. Point 8, an index is nice. User-friendly is good. It probably should be a player guide that we never actually got for 3e. (Oh, the problems WotC could have solved.) Point 9, I hope so. Good Realms content is one of the major "ifs" that could entice me over to D&DI. Point 10, yeah, it's all your fault ::points::. Where are the pitchforks? j/k That's commendable, can't have Rich soak up all the ignominy. :D Okay, so this came out longer than I planned. BTW - Yes to "Rich Baker Must Be Stopped" T-Shirts. WotC could sell them next GenCon (or other appropriately big gaming event).
MarkusTay63 10-10-07, 11:51 PM	I can sell them at my 'torch & pitchfork' booth! :P Yeah, at least they sound confident, so we'll wait and see. I was thinking that it might be a case of "let them assume the worst", and then turn around and show us it's not so bad. After everything we've suspected, anything short of planet-breaking will be a relief. Perhaps they've aquired the services of a corporate psychologist - people will be much more willing to buy into the setting now, with minimal complaints, after the big scare. Although I still think its just a matter of them wanting to create 'buzz', which they certainly did. You know, the whole "there's no such thing as bad publicity" thing.
Dark Wizard 10-11-07, 12:13 AM	Still some of their other designers need to get on the same marketing page. By now they should stop implying concepts like stale, bloated, unbalanced, too NPC-focused when it comes to the Realms and start selling the new Realms to people. Unfortunately they already took a collective dump on the old Realms in order to do spit polish the new one. They need a little more elegance yet.
18DELTA 10-11-07, 12:42 AM	This is why the WotC designers are finally posting, and talking about the realms! http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13987656&postcount=237 Its kinda sad, yet funny at the same time.:embarrass Chris Perkins must be stopped!!!:rofl: :pbbbtt:
Dark Wizard 10-11-07, 12:49 AM	I noticed how fast the moderators removed the recent spam from the boards but allowed virtually all of us to voice our often heated, loud, and critical opinions for weeks. I think that says something.
18DELTA 10-11-07, 01:03 AM	Well the "normal" posters do not post that sort of drivel!:D Chris Perkins must be stopped!!!
Rauric 10-11-07, 01:15 AM	No, it is a totally different kind of drivel. ;)
Stigger 10-11-07, 01:24 AM	I, for one, am still far from convinced that 4e Realms is something that I want anything to do with.
18DELTA 10-11-07, 01:26 AM	No, it is a totally different kind of drivel. ;) True so true. Heck I know I have posted some drivel, but wtf was that. Oh well he/she is now on the ignore list. And because I think its funny Chris Perkins must be stopped!!!;) :P
MarkusTay63 10-11-07, 01:40 AM	I, for one, am still far from convinced that 4e Realms is something that I want anything to do with.The new FRCG will be the deciding factor - if it isn't good, the Realms are dead for good. It's that simple.
Stigger 10-11-07, 01:44 AM	This is true Markus, and I will in all fairness give it an objective look when it hits the shelves, it would be stupid of me to do otherwise. But thus far, the information that's been presented isn't giving me much reason to hold out anything but the bleakest of hopes.
18DELTA 10-11-07, 02:52 AM	Well on a serious note. Chris Perkins must be... must maintain control, ok better. His blog lessened some of my fears about the direction the Realms were heading. I will decide for my self. Still not to sure about all the changes tho!:D
johnkretzer 10-11-07, 02:54 AM	I think the reasons are just as empty as before...also um..DMMs had place in the Realms that was left uncovered...then they decide to mess with them...how do we know they won't do it again. I also think it is funny that he said please direct your comments to me, but did elaborate on how. Does anybody know how to do this?
Mrakvampire 10-11-07, 03:05 AM	(1) It's a D&D campaign setting and an FR campaign setting. It feels like FR, but also it uses 4E game mechanics and incorporates all 4E races and classes. The Spellplague and its effects on the world enable us to integrate new 4E mechanics and world elements into the setting in a manner that doesn't require us to ignore canon or rewrite history. Large parts of the world won't be affected horribly. We're not going to destroy Cormyr, level Waterdeep, or blow up Silverymoon, for instance. We like these places as much as anyone. However, there are some parts of the world that aren't quite so beloved and don't have much happening in or around them. Many of these areas are likely to undergo some level of change. I DO NOT NEED Eberron's changelings/warforged in my FR game. Let them rot in Eberron - I do not need an universal setting - I want FR. You create GOOD KINDOM (OMFG!) of orcs in... Silver Marches! You kill majority of magic-users - and still you claim that large parts of world won't be affected??? Whom you think you are fooling? (2) 4E FR embraces, at least in part, the "points of light" concept talked about on D&D Insider. There will be places in 4E FR that haven't been explored or mapped. Some of these "dark areas" may be explored in novels; most will be set aside for DMs who want to insert their own cool stuff into the campaign setting. In effect, the Spellplague allows us to put some of the "forgotten" back into the Forgotten Realms. Richard Baker CLEARLY stated some time ago that this concept WILL NOT be used in Faerun. So you are saying that Richard Baker is a liar? (3) In 4E FR, the PCs matter. The PCs are the ones accomplishing the truly heroic quests. There aren't a bunch of high-level NPCs running around who can step in to clean up the PCs' messes or do things the PCs can't. Oh, so those high-level NPC will suddenly dissapear/die? A world famous for it's high magic and epic heroes now becomes low-level low-magic world? And you state that it still the same FR? And btw - it's POOR DM who uses high level NPC as way to steal attention from PCs, and removing high level NPCs will simply make a DM's work even harder (no pregenerated NPCs for high level play) - a bad DM can ruin even a low-level game (PC are 1-4th level) with omg (!) uber 7th level NPC. So, using your logic, maybe we should remove all NPCs at all? (4) FR novels will remain part of the FR canon. As with previous editions, DMs are free (even encouraged) to run FR campaigns that ignore canonical elements that don't suit their individual campaigns. Hahaha. Main 'problem' of FR is still not solved. (5) Running adventures and campaigns in 4E FR doesn't require encyclopedic knowledge of Realms history. Anyone who reads the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide will feel like they can run a Realms-based adventure or campaign without treading on thousands of years of history. The Grand History of the Realms nicely encapsulates all of the setting's pertinent historical moments; the 4E books will focus more on the present and provide DMs with the tools they need to run exciting FR adventures across all of Faerûn. As it was in 3E. You have no critical need to use 2E material to run 3E FR campaign. You create imaginary problems, and then try to solve them - all by yourself. (6) The 4E FR setting will have a smaller pantheon. In general, there will be less overlap in the gods' portfolios. Consequently, some 3E deities have been 'demoted,' effectively becoming agents or emissaries of more powerful gods. A handful of deities have been killed off. There are also a few new deities to fill holes. Why? Your 12-years old gamers can not remember names of more than 3 gods? Large and beautiful pantheon is a trademark of Forgotten Realms - it's a DIETY-INFLUENCED world. If you change this - you change Realms greatly. (7) Elminster and Drizzt are still around in 4E FR, as are several other iconic FR characters (including many popular campaign villains). On that note, FR wouldn't be FR without the contributions of Ed Greenwood and R.A. Salvatore. Two years ago, Ed and Bob expressed some initial concern about advancing the FR timeline; however, they quickly realized that the change gave them the "space" to tell more interesting stories, reveal some new characters, and write about some new places in the world. Ed and Bob are on deck to receive the 4E rules documents shortly, and in addition to his other FR commitments, Ed will be contributing 50,000 words to the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide releasing in August 2008. Ahh... They realized... After they understood that they cannot change your insane plans? 50,000 words? Let me guess - it will be information/essay about Realms PAST? :D Because Ed have stated that he will continue to support OLD realms, explore HISTORY (and never stated that he will write about present 'new' realms) (10) Numerous individuals have contributed to the shaping of 4E FR. If you don't like what you hear, I urge you to point your accusing finger at me. I am the D&D story manager, so world design pretty much falls to me and collaterally to my team of designers (see my closing remarks, below). So, be prepared for angry mob with torches and pitchforks. Don't you understand that your 'story' - is a dagger in heart of many and many FR fans? Or new possible gamers are more valuable to you than old fans, who were WITH TSR/WOTC all these YEARS? I don't know anyone who loves the Realms more than Rich save Elminster himself I know - Ed Greenwood. Seriously, guys, Rich is tremendously invested in the Realms (his FR novel Condemnation made the New York Times best-seller list, ya know!). Please don't make him wish he was an Eberron fan! It would be better IF YOU didn't make US wish we were Eberron fans! I'm talking Hollywood blockbuster cool — and I guarantee that new fans and old fans alike will have good reason to play in FR campaigns. Hollywood rarely creates really good, interesting films, with strong story... In conclusion - you destroy or change Realms and still hope that old fans will live with it? Someone - maybe, but as far as I know - majority will instead play 3.5 or 2.0 campaigns.
Stigger 10-11-07, 03:06 AM	I'd say something snippy about throwing daggers as a mail medium, but it would be impolitic of me... ;)
Alediran 10-11-07, 09:46 AM	We should change "Richard Baker must be stopped" to the "4ed FR team Must be Stopped", so he doesn't feels lonely while the others smile at the same time they dissect the Realms.
Straploknight 10-11-07, 09:55 AM	I can sell them at my 'torch & pitchfork' booth! :P Hah, your torch and pitchfork booth will pale next to my 'greek fire' booth, technology FTW!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-11-07, 12:01 PM	Okay, how do they decide which parts of the Realms "aren't so beloved?" Some of us love the less talked about parts of the Realms. I love Silverymoon, Cormyr, and Waterdeep with all my heart...but I don't think I love them more than many OTHER places in the Realms. There aren't a bunch of high-level NPCs running around who can step in to clean up the PCs' messes or do things the PCs can't. See what I said about player narcissism? This seems to be promoting just that (ie. "I'm upset because there are other, more experienced people in the setting who can do things my fresh-faced lvl 1 character can't...") Lastly: Hollywood blockbusters ain't always that great!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-11-07, 12:31 PM	(10) Numerous individuals have contributed to the shaping of 4E FR. If you don't like what you hear, I urge you to point your accusing finger at me. I did, Chris, when you implied that the Chosen of Mystra were "omnipotent forces for good". Nothing personal, but that remark was false and I do hold you responsible for it.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-11-07, 12:39 PM	I, for one, am still far from convinced that 4e Realms is something that I want anything to do with. Agreed, I think I'd just prefer to stick to the old Realms. I prefer the old Realms, and I can save money at the same time. End of story.
Alediran 10-11-07, 12:41 PM	Agreed, I think I'd just prefer to stick to the old Realms. I prefer the old Realms, and I can save money at the same time. End of story. We should even begin an alternative realms website. Since I'm a web developer I could do the structure and programing of the web, if anybody here knows about image design we could do a good website for it.
Suin Bahhar 10-11-07, 12:46 PM	I still don't see the designers love for what the setting IS. Show me more love WotC.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-11-07, 12:57 PM	We should even begin an alternative realms website. Since I'm a web developer I could do the structure and programing of the web, if anybody here knows about image design we could do a good website for it. If you could do that, I would certainly advocate it (and possibly participate).:)
Alediran 10-11-07, 01:01 PM	I need time at least to get an internet connection at home (I'm posting from my work). After that I can make almost anything we would need (a board system, a relational knowledge compendium like wikipedia, etc)
LdyShayna 10-11-07, 01:38 PM	I haven't been to the WotC forums in a long time, and I haven't taken part in the...errr...heated debate on the upcoming changes, but I would like to comment on some of the items in this blog entry in a (hopefully) constructive manner, to explain my continuing reservations over the proposed changes. (1) It's a D&D campaign setting and an FR campaign setting. It feels like FR, but also it uses 4E game mechanics and incorporates all 4E races and classes. The Spellplague and its effects on the world enable us to integrate new 4E mechanics and world elements into the setting in a manner that doesn't require us to ignore canon or rewrite history. Large parts of the world won't be affected horribly. We're not going to destroy Cormyr, level Waterdeep, or blow up Silverymoon, for instance. We like these places as much as anyone. However, there are some parts of the world that aren't quite so beloved and don't have much happening in or around them. Many of these areas are likely to undergo some level of change. As noted above, it would be nice to know what part you don't think are very beloved. In my experience, a lot of people I've seen stay away from the canon areas so as not to need to worry about ongoing novels and meta-stories. I really like reading about Cormyr and Waterdeep and Silverymoon, and even enjoy creating characters that I'll never use in a campaign just because of all the cool ideas, but I've not ever actually played a game set in any of these places, personally. I wonder how much I'm an anomoly, I guess. So the questions from me on this item are: How did you identify what parts are not as beloved? Did you throw around the idea that people might have adventures in such lesser developed areas to give them more elbow room? If so, how did you feel you addressed this? Some people will need to be disappointed, of course. But I'm curious how this was approached. (2) 4E FR embraces, at least in part, the "points of light" concept talked about on D&D Insider. There will be places in 4E FR that haven't been explored or mapped. Some of these "dark areas" may be explored in novels; most will be set aside for DMs who want to insert their own cool stuff into the campaign setting. In effect, the Spellplague allows us to put some of the "forgotten" back into the Forgotten Realms. Hmmm...this really depends on how much "at least in part" effects the balance of the Realms. I've always imagined the Western Heartlands and parts of the North like this with, say, the overland route from Baldur's Gate to Cormyr being fairly wild in a lot of places. I guess I don't see how significant changes would be needed to have the Realms have points of light areas. IE, I don't see how this would drive significant changes. So the questions from me on this item are: Did you feel that a a lot of the Forgotten Realms were too tame? Do you agree the regions I gave reflect the points of light idea you were going for, or were you picturing something significantly different? I have questions with how the Spellplague effects this, but I imagine those will have to wait until you guys are ready to say more about the concrete effects of this event. (3) In 4E FR, the PCs matter. The PCs are the ones accomplishing the truly heroic quests. There aren't a bunch of high-level NPCs running around who can step in to clean up the PCs' messes or do things the PCs can't. Hmmm...so many relative terms, here. How high are high level, and how many of a bunch are too much? I will agree that having powerful forces for Good can limit the kinds of Realms Shaking Events that DMs can do without getting their attention, I don't believe that they will be getting intimately involved in most of the types of adventures I've played in. IE, a massive inter-planar invasion would certain get such characters involved, and may not allow the PCs to be The Big Heroes, but more mundane or regional threats may very well not be an issue. Also, a lot of the people I've talked to who use this as a reason not to like the Realms specifically point to Elminster and Drizzt as characters they don't like. So I don't think you will be convincing any of them on this point. So the questions from me on this item are: What level do you think to be 'high level' in this context? Are we talking epic level, or would a 12th level fighter/city leader also be pruned? IE, are you setting up so that an inter-planar invasion type scenario would definitely not have ANY NPCs powerful enough to act, or do you feel that even regional disturbances are stifled in the current setting? (4) I rarely read the novels, to be honest, so this will be as I always have treated it. (5) Running adventures and campaigns in 4E FR doesn't require encyclopedic knowledge of Realms history. Anyone who reads the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide will feel like they can run a Realms-based adventure or campaign without treading on thousands of years of history. The Grand History of the Realms nicely encapsulates all of the setting's pertinent historical moments; the 4E books will focus more on the present and provide DMs with the tools they need to run exciting FR adventures across all of Faerûn. Err? To be honest, I really though the FRCS book for 3E did this just fine. Get that and the Player's Handbook, and you could run in the Realms. Want to know more? There's other sourcebooks, novels, etc. However, I didn't really think it REQUIRED encyclopedic knowledge to run. I'm, frankly, puzzled by this one.Makes it hard for my summary questions. :) So the questions from me on this item are: If further novels are still canon, and the history of the Realms is NOT being retconned, how are you changing anything in this regard as to 'needing encyclopedic knowledge' to feel like you're not 'treading on thousands of years of history'? If the Grans History of the Realms is the history and the new FRCS is the current...errr..how is that different from how it is now? Not trying to be pedantic here. I really don't get what you're saying on this one. (6) The 4E FR setting will have a smaller pantheon. In general, there will be less overlap in the gods' portfolios. Consequently, some 3E deities have been 'demoted,' effectively becoming agents or emissaries of more powerful gods. A handful of deities have been killed off. There are also a few new deities to fill holes. I'm not happy with this one. I liked the wide range of gods, and regional powers, and such. Really enjoyed it. I played paladins of Torm, because paladins of Tyr and paladins of Ilmater were very different. And that's just paladins, who have a fairly strict code of behavior! Clerics were just a blast to play. This is going to be a touch sell to me, especially if you lay your mitts on my Torm. :P Also, what I've seen of the events that result in Mystra's death seem very out of character for the gods involved. I could swallow the results a tad better if the events at least made sense to me. I do wonder if you guys would be willing to take another look at those events, because that alone causes those little frown line sin my forehead to start forming...and we can't have that, can we? :) No real questions, as I assume there's not much you will say until you're ready to say who bites the big one, who is demoted for being redundant, and such. This is one of the areas I'm most irritated about, though. (7). Hmmm...OK. (8) User friendly and indexes are good. Can you give a briefly outline of how the book is structured? (9) Well, not killing the setting by killing support is good, but I hope you'll understand that it needs to appeal to fans of the setting to have this matter a whole lot. :) (10) Judging from what I've read in the last few weeks, you might want to specify which fingers you want pointed in your direction. Index, pinkie, some other ruder finger.... I don't expect a line by line response, of course, but I would surely like to see the answers to some of my questions in blogs or releases before I can feel better about the changes to the FR you guys have been talking about.
MarkusTay63 10-11-07, 01:56 PM	I would have to agree with all of the above - especially the part about Elminster and Drizzt. If you are trying to attract the kind of gamer who avoids FR, then they should have been the first to go. As it stands now, you kept what they hate, and annoyed the cr@p out of long-time fans. How small was this design summit, and did anyone present NOT have ulterior motives when 're-designing' the Realms? :confused: Intelligent corporations base many of their business decisions on what a test panel of consumers think. It seems the only folks who actually like everything they are hearing are the guys who are also saying them. Kudos for much mutual back-slapping there. :bored: If you could do that, I would certainly advocate it (and possibly participate).:) Something like that may eventually happen anyway, and I believe someone somewhere posted a link to his own new site with homebrew FR material not too long ago. And then there's always Ck..... :D My biggest problem NOW with the current decisions is the removal of the 'less frequently used' areas. These are exactly the areas that people who want to avoid the 'novel plots' campaign in. Are they forcing us to game in their plots now? And they say their will be new 'untouchable areas' for DMs only - and then Mr.Perkins goes on to say "unless used by an author". What does that mean exactly? Will we have less then a year before every author who thinks his ideas are "uber cool-alicious" starts to fill them up - just like last time? Thats what caused the problem in the first place! We were PROMISED in the 1e box that we would get 'designer free' zones, and it was a lie - why should we believe you now? It has been proven time and time agin that writers have too big of an ego to play with each others toys, so they look for empty areas to develop their own cr@p. Read the blurb on the back of The Bloodstone Lands if you don't believe me - RAS was SUPPOSED to place his original trilogy there!!! Then he carved out a nook of his own in the far northwest where no one else could bother him. That's how author's think - they want to CREATE stuff, not use what's given to them! The Writers of FR novels need to study how other 'shared worlds' evolved, like Thieves World - the authors need to learn to put their humungous egos aside and play nice with the Realms and each other. I don't like Tilverton... I think I'll just smush it and smash it and make it go away..." You do NOT learn from your mistakes, you are REPEATING them. As long as the writers are given free reign to create 'bigger and better' RSEs which effect the setting, FR will never again be a viable setting for intelligent gamers. I don't really care how good the new setting is - you already plan to ruin it once again so there's no reason for players to buy into it. :( And why does the Wizards website have so many glitches since yesterday? :ahem: Your new DI seems a good concept, but obviously your employees are not up to the task of maintaining such an involved network or handling the kind of though-put your hoping for. More promises with lackluster results, IMHO.
Uzzy 10-11-07, 02:48 PM	Well, I suppose with all the money WoTC are going to save us, we can all go out for a drink. And flirt with Dan. Ahem. Anyway Chris. Kudos for stepping up like you did. I too also think that the whole 'Rich Baker must be stopped' thing going on in these forums is rather silly. Now then, you've asked for the finger to be pointed at you, so I will. Along with some comments. (1) It's a D&D campaign setting and an FR campaign setting. It feels like FR, but also it uses 4E game mechanics and incorporates all 4E races and classes. The Spellplague and its effects on the world enable us to integrate new 4E mechanics and world elements into the setting in a manner that doesn't require us to ignore canon or rewrite history. Large parts of the world won't be affected horribly. We're not going to destroy Cormyr, level Waterdeep, or blow up Silverymoon, for instance. We like these places as much as anyone. However, there are some parts of the world that aren't quite so beloved and don't have much happening in or around them. Many of these areas are likely to undergo some level of change. Firstly, how will Waterdeep survive when the wards that prevent the city falling into Undermountain disappear? Additionally, how does Silverymoon survive the failing of it's Mythal, and the probable mass insanity of the Spellguard + Alustrial? More importantly, who decides what areas are less loved? (2) 4E FR embraces, at least in part, the "points of light" concept talked about on D&D Insider. There will be places in 4E FR that haven't been explored or mapped. Some of these "dark areas" may be explored in novels; most will be set aside for DMs who want to insert their own cool stuff into the campaign setting. In effect, the Spellplague allows us to put some of the "forgotten" back into the Forgotten Realms. Did that before. Those areas got filled in! A cynic might also say that you can't be bothered to map in large areas. Another cynic might say that Rich Baker has already said that the Realms won't be converting to the 'Points of Light' concept. Who's right? (3) In 4E FR, the PCs matter. The PCs are the ones accomplishing the truly heroic quests. There aren't a bunch of high-level NPCs running around who can step in to clean up the PCs' messes or do things the PCs can't. Now this gets me annoyed. The only reason that this perception has been spread is thanks to you at WoTC. You have continually failed to use those high-level NPC's in the way Ed Greenwood intended them to be. You have failed to use your own FRCS, particularly the 'Concerns of the Mighty' sidebar and the 'Make the PC's the stars' section. Instead, these high level NPC's have been used in a 'Justice League of the Realms' type role. Killing them off isn't the answer. Using them as intended is. This is a problem of your own making. I had not expected head designers to be using the same language as people who simply do not understand the Realms. (4) FR novels will remain part of the FR canon. As with previous editions, DMs are free (even encouraged) to run FR campaigns that ignore canonical elements that don't suit their individual campaigns. To start, I'll mention the positives. Keeping FR novels as canon is a good thing. But that's not the problem. The problem is the continual stream of RSE's in novels that often overlap. Get rid of the constant RSE's, and make more novels that concentrate on a smaller scale. To quote someone from EnWorld, make them so it doesn't matter if they are canon or not! And give Elaine Cunningham a new contract. (5) Running adventures and campaigns in 4E FR doesn't require encyclopedic knowledge of Realms history. Anyone who reads the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide will feel like they can run a Realms-based adventure or campaign without treading on thousands of years of history. The Grand History of the Realms nicely encapsulates all of the setting's pertinent historical moments; the 4E books will focus more on the present and provide DMs with the tools they need to run exciting FR adventures across all of Faerûn. This, again, is a problem of your own making. Firstly though, the FRCS gives people all the information they need to run a campaign. So the idea that people need an encyclopaedic level of knowledge of the Realms to do so is just ridiculous. What I really need is easily accessible information about the current state of play in the Realms. Give me a current clack once a year, that shows the events of the past year in novels and sourcebooks, and I'll be happy. P.s. When is the present? P.p.s. If Grand History of the Realms was meant to encapsulate the entire FR story up to now, don't you think you should have given it an Art Budget? I'm sorry, the book is fantastic, but the art is appalling. There's a Warforged masquerading as Dragon! (6) The 4E FR setting will have a smaller pantheon. In general, there will be less overlap in the gods' portfolios. Consequently, some 3E deities have been 'demoted,' effectively becoming agents or emissaries of more powerful gods. A handful of deities have been killed off. There are also a few new deities to fill holes. *sigh* Why? What's the need? The Gods are a huge part of the Realms. There is simply no need for this change, and I happen to like the lesser deities. (9) 4E FR will receive a lot of continuing support on D&D Insider, in the form of an official wikipedia, regular Dragon® articles, Dungeon® adventures, and online tools (including FR race options for the D&D Character Creator). In all, there will be more Realms support online than we were ever able to provide in the printed magazines, largely because we're no longer limited by page count. I wait to be impressed by online content from WoTC. I was highly impressed by the online service provided by Paizo though. An official wikipedia sounds like a nightmare. Please don't make him wish he was an Eberron fan! Don't make us wish we were either! Eberron seems safe from the grinder for now, which is nice. I wouldn't want to see more settings destroyed to please those who hate the setting. Let me close by saying that we'll be shedding more light on 4E FR in the coming months (mostly on D&D Insider), as we get closer to the release date. The story we've cooked up for the Realms is really cool — I'm talking Hollywood blockbuster cool — and I guarantee that new fans and old fans alike will have good reason to play in FR campaigns. Firstly, Hollywood blockbusters with remotely decent plot are hard to find. Secondly, I've plenty of reasons to play in FR campaigns. Just not your version of the FR. Finally. Creating something is much harder then destroying something, and you managed to mess up destroying the parts of the Realms that you wanted to do. I am still waiting to see anything that would make me want to buy a 4th Edition Realms product.
MarkusTay63 10-11-07, 03:41 PM	Once again, I agree wholeheartedly with another poster. The thing that makes most 'Hollywood Blockbusters" such big hits are their HUGE graphics budget. The storylines in recent movies aren't nearly as good as the ones from 40 or even 20 years ago - they don't need to be because they are filled with eye-candy. Where was the eye-candy in the GHotR? Once again, the ball was dropped. So what you are saying is that you are going to hand us the new-style Hollywood movie plots without any of the special effects that actually make them worth watching? Good call. :rolleyes: More importantly, who decides what areas are less loved?Quite. :waits: Once again, it was the people who have an invested interest (read: money) that made these decisions, not some arbitrary panel of customers. So, if it wasn't making THEM money, does that mean it wasn't 'cool'? I think they threw the baby out with the bath-water - but I'm willing to give the FRCG a chance none-the-less.
Stigger 10-11-07, 04:37 PM	Been noticing a lot of problems with the site myself... glad its not just me really. Otherwise, what was said up there by and large. I can't really say I'm mad or upset by all of this however, its moved into resignation. But, like a fool, I keep coming back looking for a ray of light I don't think will actually be there... suppose its the hopeless romantic in me. :D
johnkretzer 10-11-07, 05:30 PM	Oh and one other thing about the blog...it confirms it they do talk abour msatran at meetings...now he will be insufferable :doh: Just joking....:D But in all seriousness is there away so that us on the boards might be able to get answears from Chris Perkins directly instaed of the much beleagured Mr. Baker?
MarkusTay63 10-11-07, 06:48 PM	Doubtful, but I suppose we could direct our questions to HIM in the "ask the desiners" thread. Also, do you think everyone at WotC are now wearing 'Msatran must be stopped' T-shirts? :P
Asgetrion 10-11-07, 07:22 PM	Oh and one other thing about the blog...it confirms it they do talk abour msatran at meetings...now he will be insufferable :doh: Just joking....:D :shocked: :heehee Indeed it appears so! Hopefully Big M won't let that get to his head! ;) :P
MerrikCale 10-11-07, 09:10 PM	:shocked: :heehee Indeed it appears so! Hopefully Big M won't let that get to his head! ;) :P That ship has sailed Sign me up for a "Chris Perkins Must be stopped" bumper sticker
18DELTA 10-11-07, 11:58 PM	That ship has sailed Sign me up for a "Chris Perkins Must be stopped" bumper sticker I want a coffee cup. Maybe a"Chris Perkins Must be Stopped!!!" lunch box. :D ;) :P
Mula 10-12-07, 12:21 AM	Wow. From some posts, I get the impression that some areas are going to DISAPPEAR from the map completely. "Less used areas," as someone put it. Yet, the blog says,Large parts of the world won't be affected horribly. We're not going to destroy Cormyr, level Waterdeep, or blow up Silverymoon, for instance. We like these places as much as anyone. However, there are some parts of the world that aren't quite so beloved and don't have much happening in or around them. Many of these areas are likely to undergo some level of change."Less used?" I read, "less liked" and "nonactive" areas. There ARE less liked areas in Faerûn, namely Mulhorand, Chessenta, Unther - the tacked on RL cultures. I hope they're going to address these.
msatran 10-12-07, 12:29 AM	Actually, I can't support Chris Perkins must be stopped, he obviously wants to keep his job. The issue at hand, is, of course, this. All they did was read the boards. My other problem is that to me, the Realms ISN'T about hollywood blockbusters, though it is certainly about cheesecake. The goal of the Realms isn't to produce cosmic, earthshaking events, though they do occasionally happen. The Realms is the fantasy equivalent of Veronica Mars. Or, perhaps, to be more accurate, Veronica Mars is the noir version of the Realms. The characters are well developed, the stories are well written and well thought out, and little shopkeepers matter. Character epiphanies about who they ARE matter as much as fighting the bad guys. Now it seems they're taking all that away and replacing it with more cosmic jokermen. But all they had to do was ask me, or Dan, or Rhee, or heck, ask Ed Greenwood. Stop caring about contracts and start caring about GOOD stories again. That whole Watercourse trilogy, where I was forced to horribly endure 1000 pages of Ayn Rand tribute to move a forty mile trench upstairs, so to speak, was abhorrent. The fact that they chose to idolize one of the worst writers ever on the face of the planet doesn't speak well for the line of novels either. What's next? Bulwer-Lytton? Richard Baker Must Be Stopped!
Lord Karsus 10-12-07, 12:34 AM	-Maybe it was just me, but did anyone else, feel after reading that, that they consider us dumb? Not dumb as in 'Hey, they are consumers, and will just buy anything we throw out there', but dumb as in, 'Eh, they won't notice- they're all pretty stupid'.
booze 10-12-07, 08:57 AM	-Maybe it was just me, but did anyone else, feel after reading that, that they consider us dumb? Not dumb as in 'Hey, they are consumers, and will just buy anything we throw out there', but dumb as in, 'Eh, they won't notice- they're all pretty stupid'. that was my 1st thought exactly the worst is how they want to recreat the feeling of Point of Light... isn't it obvious that after you leave a Real city you are all alone for days and days of marching save for bandits and monsters or maybe once in a while a caravan? and there are more than enough dark and/or evil places... undiscovered and unclaimed teretory
Lord Karsus 10-12-07, 10:51 AM	that was my 1st thought exactly -That's good. As long as it wasn't just me.
selunatic2397 10-12-07, 02:34 PM	-That's good. As long as it wasn't just me. Me too.
Iakhovas 10-12-07, 03:36 PM	That whole Watercourse trilogy, where I was forced to horribly endure 1000 pages of Ayn Rand tribute to move a forty mile trench upstairs, so to speak, was abhorrent.Wow. Am I the only one that really enjoyed this trilogy? :confused:
MarkusTay63 10-12-07, 03:46 PM	First, I'd like to start off by quoting myself from another thread. It all boils down to this - the novels should NOT be canon. I treat the novels as happening in an alternate (canon) Toril, whilst mine continues on without them. Once the novel events appear in a sourcebook, then I will say "such-and-such happened", but it doesn't effect my game because it already happened. I purposely set my sessions in areas that aren't involved in any current story-lines - it just works out easier that way.Now, we move onto what Mr. Perkins had to say - Large parts of the world won't be affected horribly. We're not going to destroy Cormyr, level Waterdeep, or blow up Silverymoon, for instance. We like these places as much as anyone. However, there are some parts of the world that aren't quite so beloved and don't have much happening in or around them. Many of these areas are likely to undergo some level of change.Hmmmm... so basically, the areas thet WotC considers the ones that need to be ditched are the ones they haven't given us sourcebooks about in a couple of editions? :uh-huh: The ones that get 1-2 sourcebooks per edition are the ones they think people care about, and the ones THEY have been ignoring are considered 'less interesting' - even though those are the ONLY areas where we can develop our OWN campaigns? So let me get this straight - it cheeses them off that we are coming up with our own material for areas THEY don't personally like, so they are getting rid of all those areas we've been using, so that we can march like good little soldiers down a path of their choosing. And, in the process, have to buy all those horrendous pre-fab modules that they keep coming out with... They are forcing us to play in the regions that they like, because they created it and they feel that what they create is soooo much better then anything we can come up with. On the one hand, we are being promised new 'blank areas' to develop (unless an author sees fit to place something there, which you KNOW they will the day after the FRCG is released), yet they are getting rid of the few spots left that we could have made our own. It appears they feel that they are so much smarter then us - that they now know what we will like even better then we do. They must have John Frickin' Edwards on staff or something! This whole "we know whats good for you" attitude reaks of high-level psionic powers! :eek: Seriously, can you tell that I am COMPLETELY HOSTILE once again?! I don't think I'm going to next year's Gencon after all - I'd probably get arrested. -Maybe it was just me, but did anyone else, feel after reading that, that they consider us dumb? Not dumb as in 'Hey, they are consumers, and will just buy anything we throw out there', but dumb as in, 'Eh, they won't notice- they're all pretty stupid'.Obviously they have had this attitude for quite some time. You see, we are too ignorant to know what we like, so they have to tell us. We are just a bunch of mindless Lemmings running toward the cliff at this point (in their eyes). 3e is good; 3e Realms are better - I'm not going anywhere. I do NOT like to be told what I LIKE!!! :rant: Also, I believe that RAS is the ONLY FR author to write a best-seller outside of FR, although I could be mistaken. What that tells me is that they are NOT good authors, we are just REALLY stupid consumers. :bored:
johnkretzer 10-12-07, 04:37 PM	-Maybe it was just me, but did anyone else, feel after reading that, that they consider us dumb? Not dumb as in 'Hey, they are consumers, and will just buy anything we throw out there', but dumb as in, 'Eh, they won't notice- they're all pretty stupid'. Yes you are not the only one...pretty much the only new thing here is that they said leave R. Baker alone( which I can respect one should support their employees or fellow co-workers) and a attemp to counter msatran's 'Rich Baker must be stopped' campaign by making it a joke. Which again I can understand...though I hope people saw though it for what it really was. Others wise it was much of the Gygaxian line of 'this is how we play D&D and run the FR...you should too and if you don't like it you are not cool like us' But I have since 4th editionb got announced that they have veiwed their consumers to be,"' Hey, they are consumers, and will just buy anything we throw out there".
Lord Karsus 10-12-07, 05:29 PM	So let me get this straight - it cheeses them off that we are coming up with our own material for areas THEY don't personally like, so they are getting rid of all those areas we've been using, so that we can march like good little soldiers down a path of their choosing. And, in the process, have to buy all those horrendous pre-fab modules that they keep coming out with... -Well, he didn't say 'destroy'. He said 'change'. Only they know exactly what 'change' means. It could be a change in weather patterns, causing it to rain more often in X, or it could be a volcanic eruption that totally devastates X. We'll see, I guess. Also, I believe that RAS is the ONLY FR author to write a best-seller outside of FR, although I could be mistaken. What that tells me is that they are NOT good authors, we are just REALLY stupid consumers. :bored: -Elaine Cunningham might have, as she has also written a few Star Wars novels. -The ability to write a best-selling novel, as we all know here, does not, in any way, reflect upon the ability for any writer to fill his/her novel with accurate, researched Realmslore. Something tells me that the reviewers at the NY Times, or whomever, aren't the most well versed in Realmslore. -Anyway, I just like to remind people from time to time that being best-selling novel, award winning writer does not automatically make you better than, say, a writer with less accolaides.
Mr_Miscellany 10-12-07, 05:50 PM	I'm glad Chris took the time to talk to us, and still am looking forward to what's in store for the Realms! Meh on all you nay-sayers. :P
booze 10-12-07, 05:59 PM	-Well, he didn't say 'destroy'. He said 'change'. Only they know exactly what 'change' means. It could be a change in weather patterns, causing it to rain more often in X, or it could be a volcanic eruption that totally devastates X. We'll see, I guess. but don't we all know which of the two is far more likely? ;)
MarkusTay63 10-12-07, 07:10 PM	Sorry for the tirade, but that just yanked my chain totally the wrong way. I go out of my way to find all those little corners that TSR/WotC ignores and develop them cohesively for myself and others as alternate regions to game in that won't be effected by an author's whims. Those areas were far and few between, and was all we had for our homebrew material. And they thought their was something wrong with that. Whatever, the novel crowd always takes precedence over the gamers, so thats why I've decided to move on. The thread about "What would you do with the Realms?" got me thinking - I might as well go full bore and divorce myself from the canon Realms completely with the coming of 4e. It obvious to me that I no longer get that warm, fuzzy feeling inside when I think about the realms - so I'll just part friends with it and go my own way. I still hope the 4e FR setting will be a huge hit, though - I'd hate to see it just die off like GH. :( -Elaine Cunningham might have, as she has also written a few Star Wars novels.That would be fitting - she IS an excellent author. :)
msatran 10-12-07, 11:34 PM	Well, truth be told, if they jump more than 20 years, I am COMPLETELY done. I won't NEED any new material because I have the ability to just run stuff out of the old books. Who needs an RSE? Bang. You're 4th edition, I flip the Sundering Switch have a good time. If I need to run an RSE, I run an adventure where the PC's must flip the Sundering Switch themselves, because the Sharrans don't realize that if they cast Telamont's Take Over the World From the Bedroom spell, it will actually cause simultaneous backlash from hundreds of Mythals all over the globe and destroy everything. I'll HATE doing it, but I'll run it.
GreyLord 10-13-07, 02:23 AM	You know what, with what they are saying in saving the major areas, it isn't sounding too bad. Many people play in the major areas, and in the areas less played or less well known, or at least less detailed, you can ignore or continue your own histories as you like. It's not like they can cater to EVERY single campaign individually out there. I think I'll see what they do with the realms, and if they affect a small area that we may have cleared of beasts, well then we'll simply ignore that little part of the puzzle and continue on our way. I think it could be a lot less dramatic than some may think, and in some ways could be a lot of fun. I suppose we'll all see, hopefully people here will at least give it a chance. If they are keeping the major areas, and what seems to be the major deities, much of that is keeping the heart of the realms and the realms ideas. It's the added addendums, and small out reaches, and other miscellany that it sounds like they are shedding. In those areas, it would be hard to define in any set way as the way one party might have it, won't be the same way another party would have it. I'd rather have them touch one of the thousands upon thousands of small areas they could deal with, then totally wipe out the major areas like Corymr into non-existence. Wipe out all the big major areas and such and then it just becomes a map that just happens to look the same as the Realms, keep the same areas, with a little change, and it becomes more of a history and background. At the same time, it sounds like they are keeping most of the major deities, which is also good sounding. I'm thinking it may not have as big an impact on our games as people may have thought at first, but again, I'd say wait and see. Overall, I think some of what they are saying may turn out well, however.
Lord Karsus 10-13-07, 01:15 PM	but don't we all know which of the two is far more likely? ;) -Who knows? I am sure that there are some areas that they will change rather drastically, and I am sure there are some areas that they won't. We can't make generalizations because: A) We don't know exactly what regions they are talking about B) Every region is unique, and can only be fiddled around with so much. The thread about "What would you do with the Realms?" got me thinking - I might as well go full bore and divorce myself from the canon Realms completely with the coming of 4e. It obvious to me that I no longer get that warm, fuzzy feeling inside when I think about the realms - so I'll just part friends with it and go my own way. -You can always come over and play in my setting. :)
msatran 10-13-07, 02:10 PM	Iak, please understand. I have a masters degree in English Literature. Most literary professors consider Ayn Rand a colossal mistake. I dare you to read Atlas Shrugged, or The Virtue of Selfishness. All these books are is a rewriting of Ayn Rand through a fantasy lens, and she was awful to start with. It's not that the events themselves are bad. This is like copying the writing of a fourth grader and being thoroughly disgusted iwth your audience, and yet, you write the novels anyway because you like the writing style. These books were actually insulting to read.
Lord Karsus 10-13-07, 03:18 PM	-Hey, I happen to be a big supporter of the Objectivist philosophy of metaphysics and ethics.
Charles Phipps 10-13-07, 05:07 PM	Man, I can just see it now. You :censored: :censored: suckers! You :censored: eating pieces of :censored:! You did it! You destroyed my game! You destroyed :censored: Dambrath! Yes, its' where I've run a 14 year game and the best part of the Realms! :censored: WOTC! :censored: you! It was the only wortwhile place in the setting! :p Every part of the Realms is someone's favorite it seems.
MerrikCale 10-13-07, 09:11 PM	-Maybe it was just me, but did anyone else, feel after reading that, that they consider us dumb? Not dumb as in 'Hey, they are consumers, and will just buy anything we throw out there', but dumb as in, 'Eh, they won't notice- they're all pretty stupid'. I was saying just that on another Perkins' blog thread. For example, they keep saying "we need to cut down on gods and make other gods demigods subservient to greater gods, blah blah blah". They never say why. (Probably because there is no good reason). Instead, they just keep saying there are too many gods, there are too many gods. I get the feeling they think if they just keep saying we'll just figure it must be so. The same holds true for this nonsense about high level NPCs. Why do they ruin the game for PCs? The answer is basically they just do.
Charles Phipps 10-13-07, 10:02 PM	The same holds true for this nonsense about high level NPCs. Why do they ruin the game for PCs? The answer is basically they just do. Reply With Quote Uhhh, this may shock you but they're probably trying to appeal to people who AREN'T fans of FR with this. Who frequently give those exact two complaints.
johnkretzer 10-13-07, 10:37 PM	Uhhh, this may shock you but they're probably trying to appeal to people who AREN'T fans of FR with this. Who frequently give those exact two complaints. So what are we to do about this? You just said on another thread that people who don't complain would get listen too.... now there are listening to people who aren't even fans that complain? Also many people who aren't fans wouldn't know Mystra or the 7 sister if they were all waiting in bed for them...but they do know Drizzt and Elminster...they aren't going to come running if those two are still alive.
Charles Phipps 10-13-07, 11:42 PM	Let me explain. 1. Forgotten Realms fans have made the same complaints. 2. They're trying to attract new readers. Let's face it though, Drizzt and El SELL. They're not a turn off to a lot of fans because their books have been best sellers and are iconic points of the game. It's a bit of a damned if you do and don't situation. But they want to expand the market while not losing much of the old. That's a hard tightrope to walk.
johnkretzer 10-14-07, 12:17 AM	Let me explain. 1. Forgotten Realms fans have made the same complaints. 2. They're trying to attract new readers. Let's face it though, Drizzt and El SELL. They're not a turn off to a lot of fans because their books have been best sellers and are iconic points of the game. It's a bit of a damned if you do and don't situation. But they want to expand the market while not losing much of the old. That's a hard tightrope to walk. I agree and I applaud the idea of trying to get new fans and keep the old fans...the problem is: 1) Alot of fans who complained about the god, high level NPCs etc have gone over to Eberron...so where is the lost in that? I thought they fixed it the best way they could in giving a alternative world that appeals to people that FR didn't appeal to. Heck I like both worlds...and if I had a choice right now I'll go with Eberron because the new FR just seems like a cheap clone of it to me. Or are they are going to give us a alternative? 2) Trying to get new people to play D&D at all has always came from the existing fan base. I think in the 30 years of playing I have gotten maybe 100s of people to try it...with about half of them still playing and buying books. Now let us just say that 25%(I think the number will be higher) of us move on and not buy into the changes...why do they suddenly think it will attract new people? And from where? I mean RPG is very hard to get people try to start with because it so hard for people who don't play to understand and it is hard to explain. Just the concept of it is tough forget about the mechanics. I don't see commercials really working here. 3) The other souce people had was the Local Gaming Store(LGS). Which this will kill. The LGS (atleast in my area) are just barely surviving as it is. With the big retail bookstores and online sales undercutting them and releasing books early it is very hard for them to make money. Now with the large online support(which I am not against though since there hasn't been anything that will make me convert yet it is useless) what is there that your LGS can provide? Alot of them are marginalizing their RPG playing space and floor space devoted to RPG material to sell other things(like paint ball guns, sports trading card, etc.) to survive. 4) Alot of the changes seem to attract the MMORPG crowd. Which I am not against, personaly I think this phenome is slightly unhealthy for society. But this is unlike to happen because(well again this from my personal experience) because the people who play MMORPGs like it because of everything that table top doesn't offer, Quick leveling to the point where people just log on and just to level...unless you have a friendly DM who has no life this won't ever happen. Being able to 'beat' the game...also D&D has never been about beating the game and really can't be(Though the RPGA has always tried with their touraments). I just don't see how the can change the game to attract those people. Sure the online table idea might get a few MMORPG players to play on that since there are some who play to get their D&D fix...but I think in the end they'll just move on anyway. 5) Alot of the changes to the FR are just based on perception generated by the same people. It makes me wonder that if they did it so they could have a excuse to destroy the Realms and rebuild it in their own image. I mean I have seen and thought about a thousand different ways to get the result they want without ticking off a percentage of old players...and could attrqact new players.
Charles Phipps 10-14-07, 12:29 AM	5) Alot of the changes to the FR are just based on perception generated by the same people. It makes me wonder that if they did it so they could have a excuse to destroy the Realms and rebuild it in their own image. I mean I have seen and thought about a thousand different ways to get the result they want without ticking off a percentage of old players...and could attrqact new players. I think it's important to note that no one enters the RPG Industry to get rich. I learned that lesson ridiculously quickly as the CEO of a vaporware company (fellow gamers are NOT good business partners). I'm fairly sure Richard Baker genuinely loves the Realms and mostly just wants to try and do something that deals with some of the existing criticisms while also streamlining the setting. I'm not saying he's infalliable but I think we should see what he has first before we carry on in our fear. And while you raise a good point, I'm almost certain any changes would be comed down on unless they were a direct continuation of the existing property solely without modification (and no one would buy that). Third Edition Forgotten Realms recieved tremendous flak even when it was far better.
johnkretzer 10-14-07, 12:41 AM	I think it's important to note that no one enters the RPG Industry to get rich. I learned that lesson ridiculously quickly as the CEO of a vaporware company (fellow gamers are NOT good business partners). I'm fairly sure Richard Baker genuinely loves the Realms and mostly just wants to try and do something that deals with some of the existing criticisms while also streamlining the setting. I agree with you. I think though part of the problem is that R. Baker and company loves the Realms. They think they are improving things because it is what they like. I think a more compromise approach is a better way to handle this. It is a failing of creative people that egos do get in the way. I'm not saying he's infalliable but I think we should see what he has first before we carry on in our fear. The problem is to me a major thing is that what I see already has already caused 'fear' though I think a better word is disapointment. And while you raise a good point, I'm almost certain any changes would be comed down on unless they were a direct continuation of the existing property solely without modification (and no one would buy that). Third Edition Forgotten Realms recieved tremendous flak even when it was far better. The problem is that they have never tried a different approach why not try to graduely grow the realms? Why do we have to have 10 years TLA every time?
Charles Phipps 10-14-07, 01:02 AM	I agree with you. I think though part of the problem is that R. Baker and company loves the Realms. They think they are improving things because it is what they like. I think a more compromise approach is a better way to handle this. It is a failing of creative people that egos do get in the way. True, only time will tell if their changes are better for the majority of gamers or whether it's a mistake to (potentially) offend the existing fanbase. People are panicking but it might lead to a better campaign setting. The problem is that they have never tried a different approach why not try to graduely grow the realms? Why do we have to have 10 years TLA every time? Compared to the TOT and the Great Skip, I think that the decades between where events were fairly minor (I can only think of the Tuigan horde as an entire Realmshaking event) that's pretty damn gradual. How MUCH slower do you want to go?
Lord Karsus 10-14-07, 01:22 AM	How MUCH slower do you want to go? -With a limited amount of sourcebooks and novels, I'd like to see 2 actual years, or a year and a half for every 1 Realms year. But, that's just me.
johnkretzer 10-14-07, 02:06 AM	-With a limited amount of sourcebooks and novels, I'd like to see 2 actual years, or a year and a half for every 1 Realms year. But, that's just me. That sounds about right to me too. Lord Karsus prove his wisdom. I guess all that time spent as a Vestige did some good.
Panurg 10-14-07, 10:49 AM	-Maybe it was just me, but did anyone else, feel after reading that, that they consider us dumb? Not dumb as in 'Hey, they are consumers, and will just buy anything we throw out there', but dumb as in, 'Eh, they won't notice- they're all pretty stupid'. Reading the entry of CP makes me feel exactly the same way. :mad:
msatran 10-14-07, 02:43 PM	Yeah. I was insulted. You think all this anger doesn't come from being insulted? Richard Baker Must Be Stopped!
Charles Phipps 10-14-07, 04:19 PM	Insulted? Dude wants to make the story better. That's not insulting.
johnkretzer 10-14-07, 04:52 PM	Insulted? Dude wants to make the story better. That's not insulting. No they are rewriting the story. To us who never had the problems they mentioned it is insulting. I mean I am not being contractory here, but it seems to me very high handed in enforcing their story.
Lord Karsus 10-14-07, 04:53 PM	-Yes, insulted. Chris says in multiple points that the Realms will be dynamically changed, but does not include why. For example, eliminating various lower-ranked deities. Why? What purpose does this serve? The setting will follow the 'Points of Light' approach. What was wrong with the way things already were? The PCs matter in the current Realms- elminiating various higher leveled NPCs doesn't serve anything but randomly eliminating various higher leveled NPCs. Why? -His closing marks then border on mocking. As fans of the setting, we have as much a right to be concerned with the direction it is going in as much as a voter has about his/her country. We "vote" (buy) too, don't we? Basically saying, "Why the hell are all of you guys worried? Rich Baker is here. He can't hurt the setting...He's Rich Baker! He's the best thing that's happened to the Realms since...since the Shadow Weave!" doesn't cut it for me, and I am insulted that it is percieved that it should. -Perhaps if he had more time/space to elaborate on the proposed changes to the campaign, I wouldn't find as much fault as I currently do in what was written. But, until then, I feel insulted. And, unlike some other posters currently, I am relativley level headed. I'm not putting on my Nike's and grabbing quarters at this point.
Charles Phipps 10-14-07, 04:55 PM	No they are rewriting the story. To us who never had the problems they mentioned it is insulting. I mean I am not being contractory here, but it seems to me very high handed in enforcing their story. It's not a story, it's a setting. Next, it's not insulting because they're trying to do a work that will be enjoyable to the fans. It's like critics being offended when they don't like a movie. Some Tolkien fans hated the removal of Tom Bombadil and the Scouring of the Shire. However, no matter how huge a Tolkien fan you are, I don't think that anyone has any right to feel personally offended by it. The attachment many gamers have to a property is understandable but a bit scary sometimes.
johnkretzer 10-14-07, 05:16 PM	It's not a story, it's a setting. Next, it's not insulting because they're trying to do a work that will be enjoyable to the fans. It's like critics being offended when they don't like a movie. Some Tolkien fans hated the removal of Tom Bombadil and the Scouring of the Shire. However, no matter how huge a Tolkien fan you are, I don't think that anyone has any right to feel personally offended by it. The attachment many gamers have to a property is understandable but a bit scary sometimes. I agree it is a setting which they are treating like a story. Also you said they are: Dude wants to make the story better. So what is it? A story or a setting? Also if there is a major difference between fans of a stactic setting like LotR. Personaly I would have like to see those things included in but otherwise not that big of a deal to me. The FR on the other hand is much more on a investment to me and others fans because we have created our own stories and characters to fit the Realms. I agree those fans of the LotR who felt offended by those omisions were overreacting. But the changes to the Realms is completely different because there is a greater investment of time, creativity, logic, tinkering in a RPG then any novel can match. And now they have given us a choice either throw out that investment and convert or continue without new blood and support and wither and die. That is very insulting. Please note I am sure that their market reasearch( though flaw that it is) tells them that is what will happen. I don't think it will happen, but that is besides the point because they believe it will happen. Which colors all of their actions.
Charles Phipps 10-14-07, 07:01 PM	That is very insulting. Good rebuttal. Still, no matter what events happen, it's going to have this same problem and a static setting would deeply insult me. So I'm going to give them a chance to show me why they did it.
Suin Bahhar 10-14-07, 07:49 PM	I believe strongly that any stories in our current timelines and campaigns can still be told thanks to these boards and wonderfull places like candlekeep. The realms of the mid to late 14th century can still be embellished and expanded on in stories of your campaigns with the collective knowledge of the community. Have faith in the realms in your heart. The new Toril will have a profound effect on the community as a whole, and could very well breathe new life and creativity in to the older lore bits and pieces of FR as well. Maybe I'm ranting but this is what I would wish to happen in the coming months.
Mr_Miscellany 10-14-07, 09:59 PM	The whining needs to stop. And believe me, it’s happening everywhere, whether here or on the Realms-L mailing list. Speaking of the later, a tiny handful of people from that forum immediately put a negative spin on the coming 4E changes and jumped at the chance to characterize as arrogant and insulting everything Rich Baker wrote in his blog or posted to the List in response to the attacks (and some legitimate criticism) he was getting on the mailing list. They even jumped the gun by pinning the blame for what was happening squarely on his shoulders. A wee bunch of idiots it turns out, as Perkin’s blog shows. This is almost exactly like eight years ago, when the transition from 2E to 3E produced the exact same sort of lame behavior, personal attacks masquerading as criticim and whining that we’re seeing now. All because people felt they were being “insulted”. Other excuses included claims that it was OK to behave this way out of a (overblown) sense of brand loyalty. Give me a break. Forum members and List members alike should be able to post legitimate criticisms, to debate the merits and flaws of the changes (to the limit of what’s factually known) and to respond as news about the Realms breaks. But none of us should have to suffer people trolling the more upbeat threads, with posts that make sure everyone else that’s positive or at least cautiously optimistic has to suffer others’ angst and whining. Nor should Baker or Perkins or any Forum/List member have to suffer personal attacks. There’s never an excuse for that. As it is we’re about two months or so post-news about the Realms and another handful of people have cropped up here to keep the drumbeat of dissatisfaction going well past the point where anyone else would say, “OK, I’ve made my dissatisfaction known, now it’s time to be a mature human being and decide what to do.” I hope that people will at least keep the “I’m not happy” posts limited to those topics that actually warrant such responses. Let the rest of us be happy, at least a little. ;)
WhrenKehrsyn 10-14-07, 10:01 PM	I, like others here, dont like what Im seeing so far. Aside from ripping the Weave out of the setting I wouldnt have many issues with the changes if they were being handled better. When I read GHotR I was amazed at just how forced and nonsensical the ten year skip events seemed. While I may not have liked gods dying, if it made sense I could handle it. What the book lists, however, doesnt. When previous edition changes occured I didnt always agree with the changes either. But those chages impacts werent so big that I couldnt buy new books and find them useful to the game despite ignoring some changes. Things like ripping out the Weave change the Realms in a way that theres no reason for me to buy new supplements. They are recreating the Realms and and missing things that made it unique and different from so many other settings means that to preserve that I will essentially be homebrewing my own setting at this point. I dont see any reason at all why I would want to buy 4e FR. 'You havent seen all theyre planning though!' is something I see being said around the boards, and its true, I havent. They may have some awesome things planned that I dont know about, but no matter how awesome those things are they dont change what I do know. However cool their changes to Waterdeep or wherever is doesnt make the Weave come back. On to NPCs upstaging PCs. It is completely unfathomable to me how this could possibly be. It doesnt take a very seasoned DM to keep an NPC out of the game. The notion that said NPCs can and would solve all the worlds issues is absurd as well. Why and how would they? When a Jewish temple pops up in Catholic rural northern New Mexico and makes a few converts or whatever, the Pope doesnt come rushing in to stop it. When a person murders 3 people in Illinois the head of the FBI doesnt show up to save the day. Why would it be different in the Realms? When a minor problem pops up and only through the PCs investigations is it discovered its something larger and more sinister why would the high end NPCs even know about the thing and come running to show up the PCs. If upshowing NPCs is a problem instead of blaming the setting why not discuss metagaming with the players and monitor it to keep it to a minimum? Unloved lands. Im not even sure how WotC decides what lands are less liked to be honest. I suspect by less liked they mean the ones they havent published sourcebooks for and therefore havent had fans throwing money at. Why do these places have to be heavily reworked or removed? Why cant they be left alone like they have been thus far? If WotC doesnt want to make books for those places they have to be removed? Im not adverse to change, but change does not always mean better. So much of this seems like change for changes sake. Little of it makes sense to me and none of what Ive seen appears to make it better.
johnkretzer 10-14-07, 11:50 PM	The whining needs to stop. And believe me, it’s happening everywhere, whether here or on the Realms-L mailing list. Did you post a similar message asking for the 'whining' to stop about there being too many gods? Or Mystra and the 7 Sisters being too powerful? Or that there is too much lore? Also characterizing criticism as 'whining' is insultive. Speaking of the later, a tiny handful of people from that forum immediately put a negative spin on the coming 4E changes and jumped at the chance to characterize as arrogant and insulting everything Rich Baker wrote in his blog or posted to the List in response to the attacks (and some legitimate criticism) he was getting on the mailing list. They even jumped the gun by pinning the blame for what was happening squarely on his shoulders. A wee bunch of idiots it turns out, as Perkin’s blog shows. Actualy Mr. Baker has said he worked on the orginal outline for the changes. This is almost exactly like eight years ago, when the transition from 2E to 3E produced the exact same sort of lame behavior, personal attacks masquerading as criticim and whining that we’re seeing now. All because people felt they were being “insulted”. Other excuses included claims that it was OK to behave this way out of a (overblown) sense of brand loyalty. To be honest I wasn't on these boards 8 years ago so I can't judge this...what was complain about then? I am curious. Give me a break. Ok you have my permission to go away annd not read this if you disagree with it. And if you believe that this is useless in that the majority of people will like the changes they there is no worries. Forum members and List members alike should be able to post legitimate criticisms, to debate the merits and flaws of the changes (to the limit of what’s factually known) and to respond as news about the Realms breaks. Ok that is what we are doing...except no one has debated much for the merits except for what they like.... But none of us should have to suffer people trolling the more upbeat threads, with posts that make sure everyone else that’s positive or at least cautiously optimistic has to suffer others’ angst and whining. They you go again....and I though you just say we should engage in the debate of the merits and flaws? Also you pro-change side has posted on the 'negative' threads why can't we do the same on the more 'positive' threads? Nor should Baker or Perkins or any Forum/List member have to suffer personal attacks. There’s never an excuse for that. I agree and really haven't. Though if they consider me questioning their knowledge of the Realms or disagreeing with their changes as personal attacks maybe they should look for a new proffession. As it is we’re about two months or so post-news about the Realms and another handful of people have cropped up here to keep the drumbeat of dissatisfaction going well past the point where anyone else would say, “OK, I’ve made my dissatisfaction known, now it’s time to be a mature human being and decide what to do.”. I have decided what to do as a mature human being....continue to post my reaction to it so I can be heard. Not just forgotten in the 'flood' (though really they haven't been alot of those) of positive reactions. I hope that people will at least keep the “I’m not happy” posts limited to those topics that actually warrant such responses. Let the rest of us be happy, at least a little. ;) Who is stopping you...don't read the post that you don't like since it seems that you are close minded enough that they won't change your opinion in the least you aren't really gaining anything from them.
Lord Karsus 10-15-07, 11:45 AM	On to NPCs upstaging PCs. It is completely unfathomable to me how this could possibly be. It doesnt take a very seasoned DM to keep an NPC out of the game. The notion that said NPCs can and would solve all the worlds issues is absurd as well. Why and how would they? When a Jewish temple pops up in Catholic rural northern New Mexico and makes a few converts or whatever, the Pope doesnt come rushing in to stop it. When a person murders 3 people in Illinois the head of the FBI doesnt show up to save the day. Why would it be different in the Realms? When a minor problem pops up and only through the PCs investigations is it discovered its something larger and more sinister why would the high end NPCs even know about the thing and come running to show up the PCs. If upshowing NPCs is a problem instead of blaming the setting why not discuss metagaming with the players and monitor it to keep it to a minimum? -Those are some good analogies. The problem with 'generic D&D campaign' is that what the PCs do starts off relativley minor (saving Little Jimmy from the three Orcs who kidnapped him), but grow in scope, size and importance. Circa 10th level or so, the PCs are powerhouses, and can deal with world changing events, literally. For example, a 10th level adventure can inclusing stopping a mad wizard from activating a magical device that can disfigure everyone in Cormyr. It's at times like these when someone can definitley wonder, "Well, where is Vangey, if all of Cormyr is going to be in the magical radius?".
18DELTA 10-15-07, 08:35 PM	-Those are some good analogies. The problem with 'generic D&D campaign' is that what the PCs do starts off relativley minor (saving Little Jimmy from the three Orcs who kidnapped him), but grow in scope, size and importance. Circa 10th level or so, the PCs are powerhouses, and can deal with world changing events, literally. For example, a 10th level adventure can inclusing stopping a mad wizard from activating a magical device that can disfigure everyone in Cormyr. It's at times like these when someone can definitley wonder, "Well, where is Vangey, if all of Cormyr is going to be in the magical radius?". Vangey is having brunch and can not be bothered with trivial matters!!!;) :P
MerrikCale 10-15-07, 08:38 PM	Uhhh, this may shock you but they're probably trying to appeal to people who AREN'T fans of FR with this. Who frequently give those exact two complaints. what the complaints? And appealing to new readers is fine, but not at the expense of the ones you have.
Lord Karsus 10-15-07, 11:26 PM	Vangey is having brunch and can not be bothered with trivial matters!!!;) :P -Could Vangey consider everyone in Cormyr being disfigured "trivial"? I guess he could, theoretically. He is that kind of guy...
18DELTA 10-15-07, 11:42 PM	-Could Vangey consider everyone in Cormyr being disfigured "trivial"? I guess he could, theoretically. He is that kind of guy... Well the DM knows that the players are supposed to defeat that threat. If they fail well Vangey and the War Wizards can handle it.:) Cause he was having brunch right then.
johnkretzer 10-16-07, 12:09 AM	-Those are some good analogies. The problem with 'generic D&D campaign' is that what the PCs do starts off relativley minor (saving Little Jimmy from the three Orcs who kidnapped him), but grow in scope, size and importance. Circa 10th level or so, the PCs are powerhouses, and can deal with world changing events, literally. For example, a 10th level adventure can inclusing stopping a mad wizard from activating a magical device that can disfigure everyone in Cormyr. It's at times like these when someone can definitley wonder, "Well, where is Vangey, if all of Cormyr is going to be in the magical radius?". That is simple the PCs were hired by the goverement to deal with it....why would they send more resoucces to a problem the PCs can handle... What is it with people reaching for the chainsaw when a scapel will do...bot in game and out of game...
Stigger 10-16-07, 03:07 AM	Why does it matter what Vangey is doing or isn't? Someone says to me, in game, "The Crown needs you to handle this problem", my first reaction is "I'm on my way, have my glory and gold waiting when I get back", not "Well, that's great, but why aren't the War Wizards doing it?"... Speaking as a DM, my first response to a question like that would be "because you're expendable and they don't want to risk the personnel on this just now... deal with it", which would of course come OOC. Which should, in my opinion, be such an obvious answer that to imply otherwise is to gravely insult me as a DM. If you can't handle stupid questions like that, you shouldn't be DM'ing, period, much less complaining to the Company over your own failings and inadequacies...
Charles Phipps 10-16-07, 03:35 PM	I've always felt that there's a variety of reasons the PCs are Chosen to handle individual assignments. Here are my Top Ten Favorites... 1. Deniability. 2. Overstretched Resources. 3. Expendability. 4. Fear of Widening the Conflict 5. Auguries. 6. PCs are the most genuinely skilled available at the time. 7. Insufficient evidence to justify greater resources. 8. Stealth concerns 9. Diversions that end up doing the actual job. 10. PCs blunt instrument tactics will perhaps flush out more subtle players.
Lord Karsus 10-16-07, 03:44 PM	5. Auguries. -I especially like this one. I might pull that out when/if my players ever question why they are doing something. Thanks.
Stigger 10-16-07, 06:28 PM	Not a bad list at all really...
Charles Phipps 10-16-07, 07:14 PM	I always tend to go with the idea that Faerun is already run by the Powers of EvilTM right at the time they're starting their career adventuring. The Zhents, Iron Throne, Knights of the Shield, and so on more or less run all the Trade in the Realms. Every city but those run by good guys specifically are controlled by some corrupt group or another. All of the "good" cities also are littered with corruption underneath their leadership. Cities like Silverymoon, Waterdeep, and Suzail are the exception not the rule. So, the important thing to remember is that 9/10 the Chosen are occupied trying to preserve their little remaining pockets of freedom/justice against the horde of much weaker/banal evil that dominates the Realms. Ever wonder why PCs encounter crap EVERY time they go someplace new? That's because it's THAT commonplace. The only real question is can the PCs do enough good to actually cause the tide to stem a bit.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-17-07, 12:03 PM	Hmmmm... so basically, the areas thet WotC considers the ones that need to be ditched are the ones they haven't given us sourcebooks about in a couple of editions? :uh-huh: Yep, I know. That's why I'm wondering how they decided what areas are "less liked".
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-17-07, 12:13 PM	Oh, and regarding giving Rich Baker a chance. I already dislike a lot of his previous creative work, so I, personally, have no logical reason to give him yet another chance. Most likely, his design ideas simply don't jive with mine.
Charles Phipps 10-17-07, 12:41 PM	Which ones are those, Rinona?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-17-07, 12:48 PM	Which ones are those, Rinona? *laughs* I guess you haven't seen my posts regarding the Last Mythal series? Those aren't the only works of Rich that I dislike, but they stick out in my mind the most.
Charles Phipps 10-17-07, 02:51 PM	Sadly no, could you link me to them? I'd be interested in hearing your take. I last left these boards around "Silver Marches"
msatran 10-17-07, 03:59 PM	Demonic Military Incompetence. That's one of my big Richard Baker hatreds. The City of Shade. Another totally unnecessary cosmic rubbish heap.
Stigger 10-17-07, 04:32 PM	Didn't he give us the whole Shadow Weave garbage as well? As to your worldview of Faerun Charles... I'm fairly certain you've never read 2e's Volo's Guides if you've come away with that impression of the Realms. To be honest, I find it unfathomable as to how you came to that conclusion based on the stuff in the game books. Novels I could perhaps see, but one of the reasons I ignore them largely is the whole medieval society flavor they tend to adopt, which doesn't really make sense if you take into account the factors that formed and shape European society... and the small detail that many of those factors aren't really present on Faerun. Makes my teeth hurt just thinking about it really.
Charles Phipps 10-17-07, 04:51 PM	Didn't he give us the whole Shadow Weave garbage as well? As to your worldview of Faerun Charles... I'm fairly certain you've never read 2e's Volo's Guides if you've come away with that impression of the Realms. To be honest, I find it unfathomable as to how you came to that conclusion based on the stuff in the game books. Novels I could perhaps see, but one of the reasons I ignore them largely is the whole medieval society flavor they tend to adopt, which doesn't really make sense if you take into account the factors that formed and shape European society... and the small detail that many of those factors aren't really present on Faerun. Makes my teeth hurt just thinking about it really. Which worldview is that? I don't consider Faerun a Medieval society either. It's actually much more primitive, more or less a large collection of city-states and a few minor kingdoms like Ancient Greece with only a few genuine countries in the continent. There's pretty much no structure to the land with the majority of the world being utterly wild and untamed. In our games, the Silver Marches was a *HUGE* deal because it proved that races could pull out of the Dark Ages and form a genuine nation from the disparate factions that are most lands. The PCs are working on building the nation of Vanaheim around Baldur's Gate now.
Asgetrion 10-17-07, 05:21 PM	Which worldview is that? I don't consider Faerun a Medieval society either. It's actually much more primitive, more or less a large collection of city-states and a few minor kingdoms like Ancient Greece with only a few genuine countries in the continent. There's pretty much no structure to the land with the majority of the world being utterly wild and untamed. In our games, the Silver Marches was a *HUGE* deal because it proved that races could pull out of the Dark Ages and form a genuine nation from the disparate factions that are most lands. The PCs are working on building the nation of Vanaheim around Baldur's Gate now. Hmmm... I rather see the "civilized" parts of Faerûn being a "magical" medieval society that is much more sophisticated than medieval (Dark Ages) Europe due to many magical, cultural and technological innovations (e.g. 'Continual Flame'-street lamps, wide-spread literacy, elven and Netherese influences, etc.). Yet every DM is free to portray the setting exactly as they want to -- I'm not arguing about that -- and there certainly are those savage and primitive areas, such as the Savage Frontier. Still, I wouldn't compare Faerûn to historical Real World periods or countries.
Stigger 10-17-07, 05:24 PM	Primitive? Hardly primitive on a cultural and societal level. Perhaps on a political level, if one wants to view it that way, but within the context of the culture those political systems make quite a bit of sense. Tethyrian culture, which dominates much of the 'untamed' areas tends to be distrustful towards centralized authority and very negative on 'imperial' attitudes, given their history with Calimshan. That they prefer smaller communities should come as no surprise really. I'm not sure what being a formal country has to do with sophistication though, as most of those medieval societies and governments were considerably less successful that those we see as examples in Faerun. If one looks at the example of places like Genoa or Venice, they by and large were a lot more successful and innovative than their contemporaries, whose existance is largely attributable more to "might makes right" than to any advanced societal models. As to the worldview, I refer to the one you mentioned above with Evil ruling in general and only pockets of goodness being scattered here and there and on the apparent verge of collapse. I can't fathom where that impression would come from. Unless I misunderstood you and that's simply the atmosphere you like to run for your own campaigns.
Charles Phipps 10-17-07, 07:34 PM	Technology wise, I tend to think the Realms is about the level of the High Renassiance and early industrial (about Elizabethean) actually. It's just gunpowder never became popular because of it's relative uselessness by comparison to enchanted arrows and magical weaponry. But politically, I've always stated that the Realms would be a lot nicer place if everyone was united under a few political entities that could hunt down the vast number of wandering monsters and insane Wizard Kings that have carved up the place. They just CAN'T though because the Realms are *that* divided. More resources=Safer Realms. As to the worldview, I refer to the one you mentioned above with Evil ruling in general and only pockets of goodness being scattered here and there and on the apparent verge of collapse. I can't fathom where that impression would come from. Unless I misunderstood you and that's simply the atmosphere you like to run for your own campaigns. Actually, I was just throwing that out as a DM's option. In general, I do tend to indicate that the Zhents/Thayans/Knights of the Shield/Iron Throne tend to have their way of the world whenever they're not opposed by the Chosen or the PCs. But they're not numerous enough to RULE. Also, cities like Westgate and Luskan are outright Hellholes.
Stigger 10-17-07, 07:57 PM	More centralized governments often cause as many problems as they solve... and large empires in general tend to collapse like a flan in a cupboard after a while. Besides, I never got the impression that the Realms was bursting with enough of a population to be able to settle all those 'unclaimed' places. Birth control seems to be fairly widespread and easily available, so there isn't the impetus for constant expansion since the populations seem to be relatively self-regulating and controlled when compared with Earth. Beyond that, the centralization you seem to be suggesting isn't necessarily a solution, as traditionaly independent places that suddenly found themselves in a larger nation are going to be natural hotbeds of rebellion, creating just as many problems as the centralization solves in the long run. Really the only thing you'd really be changing is the type of problems the Realms face, nothing else. Unity has to be achieved through desire of the common man, otherwise its just Empire building, which historically hasn't fared too well in the Realms over time. Its a vicious cycle, more efficient resource gathering means larger scale production, which in turn means more resources consumed that leads to more resources being needed, which leads to warfare and conquest of your neighbors, etcetera and so forth. I'd much rather have the smaller, decentralized states that don't lead to constant warfare and competition for resources on the scale larger, centralized states would. One of the problems I tend to have with Eberron is that sort of political situation being built in from the start with what I think are inevitable future consequences. My one problem with that view of the Zhents/Thayvians/whoever is that it doesn't take into account groups like the Harpers, various churches, or other likeminded organizations. Champions of Valor would be advisable to look at if you are interested in 'the other side of the coin', as it were. Unless of course you just prefer a darker setting, which kinda seems to be the case, which I obviously don't prefer. Ah well, different strokes for different folks and all that.
Charles Phipps 10-17-07, 08:13 PM	More centralized governments often cause as many problems as they solve... and large empires in general tend to collapse like a flan in a cupboard after a while. Self-sufficient villages and City States seem to work for the Realms. However, in a realistic setting, I believe that it would be a far safer and more civilized place if there were a small number of nation-states as opposed to a 1000 micro-states. Besides, I never got the impression that the Realms was bursting with enough of a population to be able to settle all those 'unclaimed' places. Well, I think the Realms are as inhabited as Europe was, the problem is that the inhabitants include a great number of people that would as soon kill you as look at you. Most of Faerun is probably settled, I just tend to think that the settlements include everything from Bullywugs to Trolls as much as villages of Demihuman Race X. Beyond that, the centralization you seem to be suggesting isn't necessarily a solution, as traditionaly independent places that suddenly found themselves in a larger nation are going to be natural hotbeds of rebellion, creating just as many problems as the centralization solves in the long run. Oh, don't get me wrong, it's not happening in the Realms. In mine or any other Realms. It took the threat of King Obould's armies + Alustriel's diplomacy to bring the Silver Marches together in a single nation and even that is clearly a very loosely affiliated set of states with a minimal tie to the Federal Government (Alustriel). Bruenor is still King after all. One of the problems I tend to have with Eberron is that sort of political situation being built in from the start with what I think are inevitable future consequences. In a nutshell, Eberron is built around the idea of how modern states suck. It just got through World War 1 and it's inevitable there will be a World War 2 in the setting. That's really built into almost everything that's written about the setting, the current peace being a lie. The tension from the 4-way Cold War is the subtitute for "Orcs attack" in the land. My one problem with that view of the Zhents/Thayvians/whoever is that it doesn't take into account groups like the Harpers, various churches, or other likeminded organizations. Champions of Valor would be advisable to look at if you are interested in 'the other side of the coin', as it were. Unless of course you just prefer a darker setting, which kinda seems to be the case, which I obviously don't prefer. Ah well, different strokes for different folks and all that. Frankly, I think you're reading way more into my works than I intended. For me, I tend to treat the Zhents/KotS/Iron Throne as legitimate merchantile entities as much as Evil ConspiraciesTM. As I described the Zhents to a player "You know why no one doesn't raise Zhentil Keep? Because, no matter how many times they try to kill King Azoun or his family, it is less dangerous to his crown to let them plot than try to remove their coin from the Realm. Your player characters have bought stuff from Zhentil Keep merchants and probably a third of what you own came through them at one point." In general, I stick with the Harpers being very NECESSARY groups because the Realms needs constant battling against the evils of the Realm. The paladin orders and heroes of the Realm are needed against just the various monsters and horrors out there to keep the Realm functioning. For me, the conspiracies of Faerun are very competent and GROWING in power rather than weakening. Without the players, for every Zhent plot that fails, 9 more suceed. That's why every PC victory is important. It's not that the Realms is a dystopia, it's just the Zhents are GOOD at what they do.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-17-07, 08:14 PM	Sadly no, could you link me to them? I'd be interested in hearing your take. I last left these boards around "Silver Marches" Much of my Last Mythal ranting is on Candlekeep, actually. :) Check out my posts in the Book Club forum.
Charles Phipps 10-17-07, 08:18 PM	Righto.
Stigger 10-18-07, 06:06 AM	Interesting... the track record the Zhents have built themselves is kinda crap... and I seem to recall Fzoul being mentioned once or twice as a raving lunatic... so not quite sure how you come to the conclusion that they're good at what they do. My view of them is apparently quite different. Cult of the Dragon, now they used to be dangerous... same with the Red Wizards, who still are, but in a different way. Zhents though... I always equated them with the Boris and Natasha of evil in the Realms. Children compared to the silk tigers that are Calishite pashas, the Rundeen, or Knights of the Shield. Personally, I tend to ascribe their military strength and the necessity of of keeping it where it is to hold Thar in check as being why they're still around and the real reasons their neighbors haven't crushed them like the insects they are.
Charles Phipps 10-18-07, 10:28 AM	Interesting... the track record the Zhents have built themselves is kinda crap... Ugh, god, don't remind me. and I seem to recall Fzoul being mentioned once or twice as a raving lunatic... 3E's portrayal of Fzoul as a political mastermind and genius is one that I very much enjoy. His conquest of Mulmaster, his deal with Khelban, and other activities have gone a long way to repairing his image. But yes, I always liked the Prince of Lies portrayal. A man who willingly stood up to "his" god and took him down. I don't quite ever recall any lunatic portrayals though. Either from Ruins of Zhentil Keep or otherwise. Of course, I love Ed Greenwood's take on Manshoon, which that he's THE Genius at the Realms for manipulation. Plots within plots and all that. Whenever there's a 9/10 level intricate scheme that the players unravel. If it's not a god behind it then it's probably Manshoon. It fits my idea of him from RoZK. My view of them is apparently quite different. Cult of the Dragon, now they used to be dangerous... same with the Red Wizards, who still are, but in a different way. Zhents though... I always equated them with the Boris and Natasha of evil in the Realms. Where did you get that portrayal? The Cult of the Dragon occupies the role for "these guys really shouldn't be let out of the asylum" in my campaign. I mean, it takes a special breed of person who devotes themselves to worshipping undead flying dinosaurs. For me, the Zhents are the guys with almost as many wizards as the Thayans (see Lords of Darkness for that statement) but mostly united under Manshoon. In my campaign, the PCs were recently manipulated into uniting Thar under an Obould type Orc Chief only to find out to their horror he was a worshipper of Bane and this was all the work of Fzoul and Manshoon whom effectively conquered the region thanks to them. Children compared to the silk tigers that are Calishite pashas, the Rundeen, or Knights of the Shield. Personally, I tend to ascribe their military strength and the necessity of of keeping it where it is to hold Thar in check as being why they're still around and the real reasons their neighbors haven't crushed them like the insects they are. For me, they're sort of a combination all purpose Mordor/Illuminati. I've often debated how a fight would go between them and the KotS as well as the Iron Throne (the later is the subject of a future campaign if my current one lasts---the end result will probably be it absorbed into the Black Network as a proxy group. The Knights of the Shield are led by Gargauth directly so that would be a *LOT* more difficult). One thing I've already done is switch the Red Wizard enclaves over to being Zhent enclaves, which better fits them as a trading Empire than the Tharchs. The Zhents may not be as powerful as the Red Wizards or Netherese, they may not be as secret as the KOTS, but they're the guys most likely to conquer Faerun. I confess, the novels are the one place that this view of them isn't too much backed up in. The various books that use them tend to be rather "unsubtle" about Zhent shemes.
Stigger 10-19-07, 12:57 AM	Sure the Cult of the Dragon types are insane, well, some of them anyway, but it tends to work for them since they're generally more willing to do whatever it takes, even if no rational person would ever consider it... it's not a recipe for long term success, but in the short term it does tend to be remarkably effective. That view tends to come from the old 2e Cult of the Dragon sourcebook mostly, with some Cloak and Dagger tossed in. Interestingly, I've never seen the Zhents as being even remotely united up until very recently. Generally the impression was that it was fear and greed keeping those wizards in a vague semblance of loyalty, but that they (and everyone else really) would cut and run the second it looked to be to their advantage. Too much ego and arrogance to really accomplish anything of actual significance. As to old Fzoul's recent performance, well, it's not terribly consistent with his old self, but maybe the Bane's Chosen thing lifted him from the mire of mediocrity he was in. Really, if it weren't for his fanaticism and ruthlessness, I think he would have self-destructed a while ago... that and the small detail that Semmemon would pick up the pieces after his latest scheme blew up in his face. At least that was the impression that most of the sourcebooks always left me with... Not sure I buy Ed's take on Manshoon though. He's never really come across to me as particularly competant. Ruthless, Evil, and Driven, sure, but never really nearly as competant as his pupil Semmemon. Of course that could just be what we're supposed to think of him and he's doing a very good job of it... never know I suppose. Presumably, we're not going to find out either really, if the Spellplague means what I suspect it does. I will say that I can't see the Zhents opening up enclaves though... one, they're just too hated and known to get the political traction and goodwill necessary to start them in the first place. Two, why would they ever seek to give away magic that could potentially be used against them? That doesn't really fit the profile of a tyrant to be honest... Three, why would anyone who wasn't goodly or insane ever try to fight them head to head? The Iron Throne strikes me as something of a joke really, minor leagues at best, so yeah, they'd probably get squashed even in the non-combat forms on confrontation. But the Knights of the Sheild? Sorry, just way beyond the brutish thug tactics the Zhents seem to use (sourcebooks tend to picture them that way too really, not just the novels)... the Zhents would likely never even see the KotS coming until it was too late, and even then they still probably wouldn't know what hit them. Presuming they bothered to face them as a group in the first place, which isn't likely from the start. Sorry, I just can't see them conquering Faerun... not nearly enough finesse for it from what I've seen. And even if they could, they certainly couldn't hold it for long.
Asgetrion 10-19-07, 07:10 AM	Where did you get that portrayal? The Cult of the Dragon occupies the role for "these guys really shouldn't be let out of the asylum" in my campaign. I mean, it takes a special breed of person who devotes themselves to worshipping undead flying dinosaurs. Well, not dinosaurs exactly (I think dragons ar far more than that ;)) but I think that's a very good description of them -- the first sentence really got me laughing! :D For me, the Zhents are the guys with almost as many wizards as the Thayans (see Lords of Darkness for that statement) but mostly united under Manshoon. In my campaign, the PCs were recently manipulated into uniting Thar under an Obould type Orc Chief only to find out to their horror he was a worshipper of Bane and this was all the work of Fzoul and Manshoon whom effectively conquered the region thanks to them. Now this is a very nasty idea, which I might steal for my campaign -- I certainly think it is a very reasonable and believable goal for the Zhentarim to unite Thar under a Bane-worshipping ruler. A very nice idea that would work as a longer campaign, too. :) I once toyed with the idea that 1st level PCs would be searching a complex under Westgate and stumbled into a hidden stash of Manshoon clones (two of them) -- just as one of them awakened :) (i.e. Manshoon was killed just moments ago). He'd become their mentor and guide them subtly into working for evil and send them into Zhentarim missions (without their knowledge, of course). Then, at higher levels the PCs would the true identity and name of this benevolent and charismatic archmage that has been guiding them for years...
Charles Phipps 10-19-07, 10:22 AM	Sure the Cult of the Dragon types are insane, well, some of them anyway, but it tends to work for them since they're generally more willing to do whatever it takes, even if no rational person would ever consider it... it's not a recipe for long term success, but in the short term it does tend to be remarkably effective. That view tends to come from the old 2e Cult of the Dragon sourcebook mostly, with some Cloak and Dagger tossed in. Yes, The CoDSB really surprised me with the idea they secretly control Sembia. It's like the least likely group in Faerun you'd think would manage the Faerun Merchant Prince state. I've only used them a couple of times in the past though. Interestingly, I've never seen the Zhents as being even remotely united up until very recently. Generally the impression was that it was fear and greed keeping those wizards in a vague semblance of loyalty, but that they (and everyone else really) would cut and run the second it looked to be to their advantage. Too much ego and arrogance to really accomplish anything of actual significance. Strange, we seemed to be reversed in our assessment here of "What the Books Show" vs. "What the Books say." For me, the Zhentariam are a hotbed of intrigue and counterplotting within but they rarely let this get in the way of their success. It requires PCs to nudge any personal conflicts into outright disaster. (Sort of like the Sith academy in Revenge of the Sith) As to old Fzoul's recent performance, well, it's not terribly consistent with his old self, but maybe the Bane's Chosen thing lifted him from the mire of mediocrity he was in. Really, if it weren't for his fanaticism and ruthlessness, I think he would have self-destructed a while ago... I always treated Fzoul as the counterpart to Manshoon. Fzoul is extremely straight forward and a believer in military discipline, the glories of war, honoring pacts (within reason), and never leaving a man behind on the field. He inspires a lot of genuine loyalty amongst the ranks and its easy to see why a lot of people willingly stayed Banite under him. At least that was the impression that most of the sourcebooks always left me with... Not sure I buy Ed's take on Manshoon though. He's never really come across to me as particularly competant. Ruthless, Evil, and Driven, sure, but never really nearly as competant as his pupil Semmemon. Manshoon is the "Other Half of Doctor Doom" (weird analogy but I tend to run Fzoul and Manshoon as the two sides of Doctor Doom if you're a comic book fan). But yeah, he's pretty much the master manipulator. I'm going with Ed's take on the Manshoon clones that they're all secretly controlled by one single Manshoon. Ergo, that means that Westgate is currently controlled by the Zhentariam as well along with the Night Masks. Re: Semmenon I tend to run Semmenon as the guy whose actually interested in the Zhentariam as a business. Fzoul and Manshoon are both extraordinarilly compentent but aim extremely big. When Fzoul wants to convert Tethyr to Bane worship or Manshoon replace Piergion's daughter with a construct, Semmenon is building trade relations. Thus he's usually looking a lot more successful but he just tends to dream small. I also think he's sort of a perpetual lackey. He's currently being bullied by Ashemmi (cheating harlot that she is), the Pereghost, and Dag Zoreth into going along with their scheme for wrecking Cormyr. I will say that I can't see the Zhents opening up enclaves though... one, they're just too hated and known to get the political traction and goodwill necessary to start them in the first place. Someone is buying from the Zhentariam since their primary function is a Trading Network. To me, I tend to think the Zhents are viewed like Saudi Princes or communist China at certain points during the early years of trade with the U.S. No one particularly LIKES them but they're vital for the economy. Next adventure has the PCs visiting Suzail during the height of the Cormyr civil war. Manshoon and Fzoul are visiting to offer a year's supply of grain to King Azoun (who is decidedly skeptical to say the least), mercenaries, and magical aid as a good will gesture. Their reasons being A. Semmenon and the Pereghost are Cyricists. B. It always helps to spread a little good will from people stupider than King Azoun. C. It's a chance to make trade contacts and convert individuals to Banism. It'll be a nice time to force the PCs to sit down across the table from their mortal enemies. Two, why would they ever seek to give away magic that could potentially be used against them? That doesn't really fit the profile of a tyrant to be honest... I figure Manshoon will probably keep the magic they sell to certain items that wont' really impact their relationship but force individuals into a dependency on the Zhentarim. Furthermore, it'll keep a lot of his feuding wizards occupied making magical items. Finally, Manshoon can help pick out wizard potential candidates from his buyers whom may end up joining the Black Network. Fzoul....might be a tad more sceptical. But the Knights of the Sheild? Sorry, just way beyond the brutish thug tactics the Zhents seem to use (sourcebooks tend to picture them that way too really, not just the novels)... I'd almost be tempted to write off Lord Orgauth as an attempt by the KOTS to take over the Zhentarim. That fits the kind of subtle intrigue they'd do.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-19-07, 01:31 PM	Semmemon and Ashemmi seem to truly love each other--one isn't bullying the other. For updated information about these two, check out on the recent issues of Dragon (3 or 4 months ago, I think). There's a Volo's Guide article on them.
Charles Phipps 10-19-07, 02:14 PM	Ashemmi also has a child by Dag Zoreth. I would state that they do love one another but they do have a dysfunctional relationship.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-19-07, 02:40 PM	As I said, check out the article in Dragon.
Sol_Odlanier 10-19-07, 02:41 PM	This is REALLY of topic but I just want to say (if just to light up the mood that has been going on lately...) that between LK, MarkusTay, and Rinonalyn I've Recived SO much lore and wisdom of the Realms. I log in just to read what you guys have to say about FR. I DM 3 Campains (two of them in PuertoRico) and all I get a lot of help from you three. I thank all three of you.:clap: :bow: And about the whole 4E stuff, it just make me sad cuz not everybody can aford all this changes. I mean I can but my friends back home swure can't.
Charles Phipps 10-19-07, 02:43 PM	Okay, what Dragon was that? Anyone remember?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-19-07, 02:46 PM	This is REALLY of topic but I just want to say (if just to light up the mood that has been going on lately...) that between LK, MarkusTay, and Rinonalyn I've Recived SO much lore and wisdom of the Realms. I log in just to read what you guys have to say about FR. I DM 3 Campains (two of them in PuertoRico) and all I get a lot of help you three. I thank all three of you.:clap: :bow: :embarrass Gosh, I'm so flattered. Thank you for the kind words, and I'm happy to have helped you!:)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-19-07, 02:49 PM	Okay, what Dragon was that? Anyone remember? I did a search. It's Dragon 357.
Charles Phipps 10-19-07, 02:55 PM	And I agree, you give a wonderful set of information and opinions. I'm very glad to read your stuff.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-19-07, 04:24 PM	And I agree, you give a wonderful set of information and opinions. I'm very glad to read your stuff. Me? Well, thank you.:embarrass :)
Stigger 10-19-07, 05:17 PM	Yes, The CoDSB really surprised me with the idea they secretly control Sembia. It's like the least likely group in Faerun you'd think would manage the Faerun Merchant Prince state. I've only used them a couple of times in the past though. That took me a bit off guard when I read it as well, but it does make a strange amount of sense in that they do have a central rallying point to get behind, and no matter what their individual motivations, the end result is still largely the same, that being profit to gift/bribe their draconic allies/minions. It makes for a remarkable amount of unity, despite the internal politics of dominance. Strange, we seemed to be reversed in our assessment here of "What the Books Show" vs. "What the Books say." For me, the Zhentariam are a hotbed of intrigue and counterplotting within but they rarely let this get in the way of their success. It requires PCs to nudge any personal conflicts into outright disaster. (Sort of like the Sith academy in Revenge of the Sith) Interesting... we're both seeing the same thing, however it seems we interpret it differently. You don't see it getting in the way of their success, I however don't see it as likely that the plotting and intrigue won't harm them in the long run. Fear and terror among their own minions is hardly the way to build up a cohesive whole who will stick together to the end. It might inspire discipline, but there's not much holding them together once that discipline is cracked. I always treated Fzoul as the counterpart to Manshoon. Fzoul is extremely straight forward and a believer in military discipline, the glories of war, honoring pacts (within reason), and never leaving a man behind on the field. He inspires a lot of genuine loyalty amongst the ranks and its easy to see why a lot of people willingly stayed Banite under him. Interesting... he always struck me as a raving lunatic, along the lines of an Invader Zim type who just happened to have ridden the wave of Manshoon's success to a position of power. Were he as 'scary' as he was supposed to be, then constantly being foiled by Semmemon in his earlier bids for power says to me that Semmemon is a whole lot scarier if he was able to keep him in check, seemingly at will. Though the most recent incarnation of him does seem to have matured and gotten past that whole Zim bit... now if only he would lose that mustache, I might be able to take him seriously. Manshoon is the "Other Half of Doctor Doom" (weird analogy but I tend to run Fzoul and Manshoon as the two sides of Doctor Doom if you're a comic book fan). But yeah, he's pretty much the master manipulator. I'm going with Ed's take on the Manshoon clones that they're all secretly controlled by one single Manshoon. Ergo, that means that Westgate is currently controlled by the Zhentariam as well along with the Night Masks. Re: Semmenon I tend to run Semmenon as the guy whose actually interested in the Zhentariam as a business. Fzoul and Manshoon are both extraordinarilly compentent but aim extremely big. When Fzoul wants to convert Tethyr to Bane worship or Manshoon replace Piergion's daughter with a construct, Semmenon is building trade relations. Thus he's usually looking a lot more successful but he just tends to dream small. I also think he's sort of a perpetual lackey. He's currently being bullied by Ashemmi (cheating harlot that she is), the Pereghost, and Dag Zoreth into going along with their scheme for wrecking Cormyr. As to your take on Semmemon... I can't quite rectify it with what was said about him in Cloak & Dagger, FR Adventures, Villain's Lorebook, for 2e, or even the 3e FRCS... the second and third paragraph on his entry there seem pretty unamibiguous in their characterizations of him. I am curious as to where it says he's a Cyricist though... it mentioned him allying with them, but my impression is that his motivation was as a pragmatic counter to Bane rather than some religious devotion. His personality as its been described seems particularly ill-suited to being a Cyricist as they've been described. Though I am curious as to where the Ashemmi's child by Dag came from, I don't recall ever seeing that one anywhere? Someone is buying from the Zhentariam since their primary function is a Trading Network. To me, I tend to think the Zhents are viewed like Saudi Princes or communist China at certain points during the early years of trade with the U.S. No one particularly LIKES them but they're vital for the economy. The opening of Cloak & Dagger's section on the Zhentarim gives a slightly different view on how the group is seen... the whole "Long believed to be a cabal of evil wizards, priest, merchants, and rogues out to dominate all they survey..." isn't really all that ambiguous in the intent. Sure people buy from them a lot, but that's largely because they aren't aware of the source, since they didn't seem to go around advertising themselves, as local adventurers probably take a fairly dim view of their presence. ;) I figure Manshoon will probably keep the magic they sell to certain items that wont' really impact their relationship but force individuals into a dependency on the Zhentarim. Furthermore, it'll keep a lot of his feuding wizards occupied making magical items. Finally, Manshoon can help pick out wizard potential candidates from his buyers whom may end up joining the Black Network. Fzoul....might be a tad more sceptical. Occupied making magical items... One of the reasons the Red Wizards are so successful with it are the 1,000 Red Wizards, and their 5,000 associate wizards who help them out and are essentially their lackeys... somehow I have a feeling that Manshoon just doesn't have access to 6,000 wizards. He just doesn't have the population under his rule to support those kinda of numbers. There is just near-absolutely no way the Zhents could compete with those sorts of numbers. I'd almost be tempted to write off Lord Orgauth as an attempt by the KOTS to take over the Zhentarim. That fits the kind of subtle intrigue they'd do. Yeah, it did seem like their style really, though I would put that one more on their master rather than them.
Charles Phipps 10-19-07, 06:11 PM	You've convinced me on the Cult of the Dragon. Interesting... we're both seeing the same thing, however it seems we interpret it differently. You don't see it getting in the way of their success, I however don't see it as likely that the plotting and intrigue won't harm them in the long run. Fear and terror among their own minions is hardly the way to build up a cohesive whole who will stick together to the end. It might inspire discipline, but there's not much holding them together once that discipline is cracked. My basic idea is how exactly the Zhentariam express their rivalries and backstabbing. Manshoon and Fzoul, in my games, encourage rivals to one up one another and form alliances/plots outside of Zhentil Keep. So 9/10, the Zhents are working to expand themselves and their wealth. Intrigue occasionally holds them back and causes problems but, in general, it's a positive thing. You know, except when there's a major thing :censored: them over like Cyric's purge of the Banites or vice versa. Manshoon and Fzoul, with some justification, figure that everyone stays motivated when they think someone is watching their back. Also, no one ever comfortably is resting their laurels. Interesting... he always struck me as a raving lunatic, along the lines of an Invader Zim type who just happened to have ridden the wave of Manshoon's success to a position of power. Okay, here's a bit on Fzoul. Ruins of Zhentil Keep Pg. 107 A consumate politician, Fzoul has something good to say for someone who can do him good and nothing but scorn for those who cannot affect his career. He is also quite patient. His exploration of the intricacies of Banite politics had been slow but sure before the unfortunate demise of Bane and the rise of Cyric. Ruins of Zhentil Keep Pg. 107 Manshoon believes Fzoul is a master administrator and invaluable to the Zhentariam. In fact, because of his longstanding previous command of many of the (now) priests of Cyric within the Zhentariam, Fzoul's influence with the everyday memers of the organization is now greater than Manshoon I always took Fzoul to be actually the LEAST insane member of Bane's clergy, which is the irony of his heresy. Orthodox Baneism says that the Priests of Bane should conquer the world and rule with an iron fist while Fzoul suggested that they were better off supporting existing monarchs. His recruitment by Manshoon (also in RoZK) is one where the two of them have a backdoor deal where both weigh the ups and downs of an alliance in a civilized manner. Of course, it's easy to have Fzoul be a lunatic evil priest and also quite a lot of fun so I don't have any objections to the way you run it. As to your take on Semmemon... I can't quite rectify it with what was said about him in Cloak & Dagger, FR Adventures, Villain's Lorebook, for 2e, or even the 3e FRCS... the second and third paragraph on his entry there seem pretty unamibiguous in their characterizations of him. Well it's mostly just the case that Fzoul and Manshoon are the Big BoysTM in the Zhents. Semmenon is perfectly capable in his own right but he's just not quite in the same league as his two masters. Ruins of Zhentil Keep keeps him trying to play the other against one another in waiting for his chance to take over and also "has plots that take months or even years to reach fruitition." But your portrayal as somehow he's the only competent member of the Ruling Triumviate of the Zhents is really kinda out there. For me, he's the Crassus of the Julius Caesar-Pompey-Lepidus Triumviante. I.e. He's the other guy. I freely admit I may be selling Semmenon short here. The opening of Cloak & Dagger's section on the Zhentarim gives a slightly different view on how the group is seen... the whole "Long believed to be a cabal of evil wizards, priest, merchants, and rogues out to dominate all they survey..." isn't really all that ambiguous in the intent. Sure people buy from them a lot, but that's largely because they aren't aware of the source, since they didn't seem to go around advertising themselves, as local adventurers probably take a fairly dim view of their presence. I should clarify the Zhents are like the KOTS in that the Black Network CONTROLS huge amounts of trade but most of it is through proxy organizations. There's a mercenary company called the Iron Knights, the East Dragon Coast-Maztica Company, and The Guild of Honorable Merchants that are all Zhent front companies. The Enclaves would be owned and operated by Zhentil Keep, which is controlled by the Zhentariam but not officially so. The analogy I gave my players is the Zhentilar are Fascists, Zhentil Keep is Sicily, and somehow controlling both is the Zhentariam which is the Mob crossed with the Thule Society. Occupied making magical items... One of the reasons the Red Wizards are so successful with it are the 1,000 Red Wizards, and their 5,000 associate wizards who help them out and are essentially their lackeys... somehow I have a feeling that Manshoon just doesn't have access to 6,000 wizards. He just doesn't have the population under his rule to support those kinda of numbers. There is just near-absolutely no way the Zhents could compete with those sorts of numbers. In my campaign, there's no competition because the Thayans are too busy with legions of slaves in their blasted magical wastelands to worry about building a trade network. I wouldn't put it past Manshoon to figure out some way of mass producing magical items though. Like a lightning bolt catcher or something. That's breaking canon though. Of course, I kinda break canon and list Manshoon as one of the Top Ten Wizards of the Realm; Larloch, Elminster, Simbul, Alustriel, Manshoon, Ssass Tam, Khelban, Larael, Halastar, and Irenicus are commonly listed by Vangey as THE Magical personages of note. (Lord Shade will replace Lusty on that list when he arrives in our campaign) Yeah, it did seem like their style really, though I would put that one more on their master rather than them. I must now steal this!
Stigger 10-20-07, 02:49 AM	Not a bad take on the Zhent intrigues up there, that might work for them in the same way it does the Cult of the Dragon. Nice bit of finessing there. As to Fzoul there, I can't say I've ever read the Ruins of Zhentil Keep, or even looked at it beyond the maps that showed up in the FRIA. That cover just put me off it, and I was kinda disappointed with the Moonsea sourcebook in the first place, so it never really piqued my interest. Don't use the Zhents much though, so it's never really be an issue for me. That description does cast him in a significantly different light, but I think from it I would have put him in the role you stuck Semmemon in myself, kinda their cheerleader and secretary rather than someone of real power. Of course if I used him in any serious way I'd probably would have had some deity obliterate him for all the Divine Musical Chairs he seems to have played... I'm still rooting for Semmemon myself... but I can see your point about him sort of. From the events in Blackstaff its fairly obvious his heart really isn't in the whole "evil" thing, but then neither is Ashemmi's from what I could tell. My own personal thought is that he wouldn't make a bad replacement for Khelben and his duties eventually. The proxy organization bit is more what I would have done with them myself actually. I like the idea of them as a cross between the mob and Thule Society... that has a nice ring to it. Not too sure about the blasted wasteland thing with Thay, as I seem to recall them being mentioned as the largest grain and produce exporters on the Inner Sea, and that a lot of people rely on those exports to make ends meet. The Enclave bit just seemed a logical extension from that to me. Although I can see your point as I've yet to see an explanation of just how they keep themselves from being overwhelmed with slave revolts every 10 minutes. Same could go for the Calishites as well really. Actually its not a bad list of wizards. I don't see the Really UBER ones making their existances widely known if they could help it... I don't really see knowledge of the Twisted Rune or its members being much known outside of a very select circle, with an even smaller circle of people who know what that roster even remotely looks like.
Charles Phipps 10-20-07, 08:19 AM	Very good conversation on the Zhents, Stigger. You've provided me with a lot of food for thought. I checked out Dragon 357# and the Semmenon article and he's actually moved away from evil, it would seem that he's since become Lawful Neutral. Now he's actively working to oppose the Zhents and Ashemmi has become Chaotic Good. Ashemmi's child with Dag Zoreth (Cyricist Priest CE) was done by Elaine Cunningham in the novel Thornhold. It was pretty controversial at the time, I recall. The article explains it was when she was being emotionally isolated by Manshoon (ie. Evil). I don't know if I'll go with this in my campaign. Semmenon makes a nice villain, though I'll probably definitely add the idea that he was genuinely in love with Ashemmi and that she was mentally warped through and through. I hate ruining a good adventure story and I'll let it fall to the players actions if they want to forgive a man whom helped devastate Cormyr. And yeah, I think I went overboard with hyperbole in describing Thay, but I always mark it as the strangest part of Faerun. Sort of a display of everything that is absolutely wrong with wizardry thanks to everything they've done. You do make a good point that they could be doing a lot with their mystical muscle that they don't. I always ran Calisham slavery as removed from chattle slavery, it's still a horrible horrible evil institution but I keep them able to survive because Calishites conditions are always kept just slightly better than intolerable and they dangle the carrot of freedom to become an exploiter yourself. But yeah, it occupies the rich, beautiful, unpleasant and sleazy portion of my descriptor of the Realms. And thanks on the Wizards.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-20-07, 10:51 PM	Stigger, you might also want to check out that article I mentioned--both Semmemon and Ashemmi have moved away from evil.:) And he has been associated with Khelben, in fact. I think you said you don't read the novels, but you might be interested in reading the Blackstaff novel.
Lord Zeb 10-23-07, 04:33 PM	First off, I've really dug the last few pages of this discussion about the Zhents, Thayans, their in-game roles and applications and personalities. The first few pages of criticism I only skimmed...but I couldn't help but going back to this: Firstly, how will Waterdeep survive when the wards that prevent the city falling into Undermountain disappear? Additionally, how does Silverymoon survive the failing of it's Mythal, and the probable mass insanity of the Spellguard + Alustrial? I wondered that myself, until I realized that the Molester clone would wake up. :P:rofl: :smirk: :rimshot:
Stigger 10-24-07, 05:57 PM	I read Blackstaff actually... mostly because Steven Schend's name was on it really. :D Thanks for the heads up on Thornhold, even if I am going to be ignoring the event for at-home consumption. Might have to look at the article though, could be interesting. Not like I'm up for much else at the moment... laying a bit low after yet another bit of dental surgery. At least it wasn't another 13mm metal slug stuck into my jaw. :D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-24-07, 06:31 PM	I read Blackstaff actually... mostly because Steven Schend's name was on it really. :D Thanks for the heads up on Thornhold, even if I am going to be ignoring the event for at-home consumption. Might have to look at the article though, could be interesting. Not like I'm up for much else at the moment... laying a bit low after yet another bit of dental surgery. At least it wasn't another 13mm metal slug stuck into my jaw. :D I think the article would interest you.:) And I hope you feel better!
Charles Phipps 10-24-07, 10:01 PM	I'm not sure the two of them moving away from evil was a good story choice to be honest. Of course, if I do incorporate them, there might be a good story in there. Semmenon and Ashemmi came pretty damn close to ruining the character's lives on numerous occasions along with being responsible for the deaths of countless friends/innocents. With the Moonstars things, my players will NOT be understanding.
MarkusTay63 10-25-07, 06:41 PM	However it messes up some folks games, it does make for a good story. We are talking about two people who up until now have only cared about themselves, but now that they've grown to care for each each other, they've opened a door that cannot be easily shut again. :) With Christmas coming, I figure this quote is apt - "And what happened then...? Well...in Who-ville they say That the Grinch's small heart Grew three sizes that day! And the minute his heart didn't feel quite so tight, He whizzed with his load through the bright morning light And he brought back the toys! And the food for the feast! And he... ...HE HIMSELF...! The Grinch carved the roast beast!" I'm hoping Fzoul is the Roast Beast. :D
sillaric_culdanin 10-25-07, 07:35 PM	Hmmmm.... this conversation was awesome to listen in on. As Delta said above I think, yummy, yummy food for thought. I find it a bit bizarre though to see Markus type 'However it messes up some folks games, it does make for a good story.' Isn't that a part of why everyone is agains the changes to the Realms?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-25-07, 07:50 PM	Well, Sememmon and Ashemmi have been moving away from villainy for quite awhile now--the article I mentioned represents a current look at a situation that has been in development for a long time, not a 180 degree turn that was just sprung on us.
Charles Phipps 10-25-07, 08:01 PM	Well, Sememmon and Ashemmi have been moving away from villainy for quite awhile now--the article I mentioned represents a current look at a situation that has been in development for a long time, not a 180 degree turn that was just sprung on us. Maybe. The last time I saw Semmenon and Ashemmi, they were hanging out in Darkhold. In any case, my games won't be affected in all likelihood because Semmenon was one of the most hated :censored: the PCs ever faced. It's unlikely the PCs will forgive the thousands of dead they've left behind. Still, it's a pretty surprising change.
sillaric_culdanin 10-25-07, 08:03 PM	Well, Sememmon and Ashemmi have been moving away from villainy for quite awhile now--the article I mentioned represents a current look at a situation that has been in development for a long time, not a 180 degree turn that was just sprung on us. That's amusing in that we haven't seen the whole story yet. We have a blurb in a timeline... and that's it. That's like going to the end of say... Terry Goodkind's new Phantom (or more accurately looking at the book cover text from the final book in the series) before ever reading Wizard's First Rule then complaining about the content.
jasmith 10-25-07, 08:11 PM	[QUOTE=MarkusTay63;14170379]However it messes up some folks games, it does make for a good story. That's something I'm wondering about. Just how DO Realms DM's keep things canon, and how many of you try? Using out of the way areas is an obvious enough answer, but if I set a game in the Realms, I would want to use Waterdeep or maybe the Silver Marches. I'm thinking of running a Realms game in my next 3.5 campaign, so I'm curious. I wouldn't feel it necessary to adhere to canon, at least not strictly. But part of the allure is that so many players are conversant with the Realms, and already involved with the setting.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-25-07, 08:17 PM	That's amusing in that we haven't seen the whole story yet. So very glad to have amused you.
Charles Phipps 10-25-07, 08:51 PM	[QUOTE=MarkusTay63;14170379]However it messes up some folks games, it does make for a good story. That's something I'm wondering about. Just how DO Realms DM's keep things canon, and how many of you try? Using out of the way areas is an obvious enough answer, but if I set a game in the Realms, I would want to use Waterdeep or maybe the Silver Marches. I'm thinking of running a Realms game in my next 3.5 campaign, so I'm curious. I wouldn't feel it necessary to adhere to canon, at least not strictly. But part of the allure is that so many players are conversant with the Realms, and already involved with the setting. If you're honestly concerned about keeping things canon, I tend to think there's a number of things that allow you to do so. * Use your own villains. * Success means a stabilization of the Status Quo. * Any places that are burned to the ground/slaughtered to the last man are original creations. * The Realms Major personalities are either marginalized or stay largely off camera. That pretty much gives you the benefit you need.
MarkusTay63 10-28-07, 09:31 AM	That quote wasn't me - just the first sentence was. :rolleyes: Hmmmm.... this conversation was awesome to listen in on. As Delta said above I think, yummy, yummy food for thought. I find it a bit bizarre though to see Markus type 'However it messes up some folks games, it does make for a good story.' Isn't that a part of why everyone is agains the changes to the Realms?True, I usually complain when authors change the realms; but Semmenon becoming more neutral in outlook isn't exactly 'Realms-Shaking'. I enjoy a good yarn as much as the next guy (isn't that how FR started?), I just detest novels for the sake of authors changing the whole Realms because they, a single person, has decided they wanted to see something they thought would be 'cool'. For instance: Shade isn't cool - it's dumb, plain and simple. Bringing it back was moronic, and if there is an Empire of Netheril in 4e FR I already know I won't like it, but to each his own. Too many things have happened in novels that have had major effects on the Realms, but something as simple as two evil characters falling in love I can live with. And I suppose thats easy for me to say because I 've never used Semmenon in my games. Even if I had, though, he's not all that different. No one said he was going to become the next St. Dionysius, he's just grown smarter over the years. Fighting off the 'good' guys take up 95% of one's time, so if you can work 'with' them, so much the better. In the end, he can still accomplish his goals of wealth and power. ;)
Charles Phipps 10-28-07, 01:21 PM	And I suppose thats easy for me to say because I 've never used Semmenon in my games. Even if I had, though, he's not all that different. No one said he was going to become the next St. Dionysius, he's just grown smarter over the years. Fighting off the 'good' guys take up 95% of one's time, so if you can work 'with' them, so much the better. In the end, he can still accomplish his goals of wealth and power. That's the irony of this stupid argument. You know what, Shade has only recently shown up in my games despite years of existence. They're just too blindingly and ridiculously powerful for me to use in any meaningful way. I could use one of my usual maguffins for thwarting divine plots for them but that would feel cheap. For the most part, they just sit in Anauroch in my campaign and transform it into New Netheril. However, Semmenon becoming LN and Ashemmi CG? I was taken a little off guard regarding this, because my player characters pretty much have a blood oath against the pair of them. My players never dreamed of defeating Fzoul or Manshoon but their characters have had dreams of slaying both. If I bring it into canon, I run the risk of losing two very important villains but also coping with player roleplaying about "We're supposed to forgive you for the thousands of people youve killed and torture we've endured!?" What's a small change can be a big one in your game.
johnkretzer 10-28-07, 01:31 PM	That's the irony of this stupid argument. You know what, Shade has only recently shown up in my games despite years of existence. They're just too blindingly and ridiculously powerful for me to use in any meaningful way. I could use one of my usual maguffins for thwarting divine plots for them but that would feel cheap. For the most part, they just sit in Anauroch in my campaign and transform it into New Netheril. However, Semmenon becoming LN and Ashemmi CG? I was taken a little off guard regarding this, because my player characters pretty much have a blood oath against the pair of them. My players never dreamed of defeating Fzoul or Manshoon but their characters have had dreams of slaying both. If I bring it into canon, I run the risk of losing two very important villains but also coping with player roleplaying about "We're supposed to forgive you for the thousands of people youve killed and torture we've endured!?" And they reply is "no but allow us to redeem ourselves before we to face justice of the afterlife..." or something along similar lines...or have them come to the PCs aid at the right time...or just have the alignment shift to be false. They are lots of way to treat this all of them fun.
Charles Phipps 10-28-07, 01:34 PM	And they reply is "no but allow us to redeem ourselves before we to face justice of the afterlife..." or something along similar lines...or have them come to the PCs aid at the right time...or just have the alignment shift to be false. They are lots of way to treat this all of them fun. Exactly. There's an excellent roleplaying opportunity that I never would have thought of for the way they took it in canon. Honestly, I'm certain the Paladin would tell them that they should face the punishment for their crimes in Cormyr (which would almost certainly be death) while the CG might be angry but willing to forgive. A main reason I'm not freaking out about the changes is I'm a great believer in "for every door that closes, two open."
Mr_Miscellany 10-28-07, 03:37 PM	I just detest novels for the sake of authors changing the whole Realms because they, a single person, has decided they wanted to see something they thought would be 'cool'. Dude, it’s statements like this that I’d wager make WotC staffers and authors think, “Sweet Christ, our forums are host to some massively uninformed people.” Markus’ broad, sweeping generalizations must be stopped! Heh, heh. For instance: Shade isn't cool - it's dumb, plain and simple. Bringing it back was moronic, …. And your inferred claim that it was one person (Rich Baker) was responsible for changing “the whole Realms” is equally, if not more, so. If you’re willing to pay for the plane ticket, I’ll be happy to put you up at my house for a week’s worth of intense re-education on how gaming products are produced, with a side-course on the history of past decisions that have effected the Realms. If you do well enough I might even show you my campaign notes, wherein is detailed a history of all the fun me and my fellow gamers have had for the last seven years whenever I used Shade and the Shadovar in our game. ::::::::::::::: As for Semmemon…I like him. Several years ago I decided he was very similar in looks to one of the PC mages in my campaign. That made for some very interesting role playing over the years, as individuals would approach that character from time to time with coded messages, warnings and/or threats. It took the PCs a couple years of real life time to catch on, but it was worth it. Having him change….I think that’s cool to. Ed Greenwood often states that the Realms are a living, breathing setting. So seeing changes happen to long established NPCs as the timeline advances is a good thing, IMO, because it fits Ed’s notion of the Realms is.
Dark Wizard 10-28-07, 03:46 PM	Not unless it's a huge change that completely shuts down most of the old plots and can't hope to replace what years of development built up fast enough. It is why large scale changes are risky, and I sure hope WotC really has this down as they say, but so far we have a lot of "trust us, just trust us" and not enough "trust us, here's a tidbit to help you transition, so you have a solid reason to keep your brand loyalty with us."
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-28-07, 06:38 PM	However, Semmenon becoming LN and Ashemmi CG? I was taken a little off guard regarding this, because my player characters pretty much have a blood oath against the pair of them. My players never dreamed of defeating Fzoul or Manshoon but their characters have had dreams of slaying both. If I bring it into canon, I run the risk of losing two very important villains but also coping with player roleplaying about "We're supposed to forgive you for the thousands of people youve killed and torture we've endured!?" What's a small change can be a big one in your game. I would say either ignore that change (always an option) or work with it. I think having PCs cope with Ashemmi and Semmemon is an awesome story idea--why not run with it? You're right--why should they be forgiven for heinous crimes they commited just because they're now trying to turn over a new leaf? Why should that mean anything to your PCs? Keep the blood oath and run with the story--see where it goes.
johnkretzer 10-28-07, 07:12 PM	Exactly. There's an excellent roleplaying opportunity that I never would have thought of for the way they took it in canon. Honestly, I'm certain the Paladin would tell them that they should face the punishment for their crimes in Cormyr (which would almost certainly be death) while the CG might be angry but willing to forgive. A main reason I'm not freaking out about the changes is I'm a great believer in "for every door that closes, two open." That is a minor change that is interesting to play with...the only changes we have seen is massive destruction of the old flavor(Cosomolgy, Elves, Demons and Devils, gods, etc) closing doors with the new ones being opened up(the Orc Kingdom, the reemergence of the city of Shade) not interesting or I have gone a different direction with(like Obould was killed in my FR, or the City of Shade was smashed beyond any recognization). Heck Ashemmi and Semmemon can still be good and still be in conflict with the party...there is really no change there. I can't bring back Obould(the PC made sure it was perament) and the orcs got scattered to the 4 winds.
Charles Phipps 10-28-07, 07:22 PM	As I stated in the Candlekeep Forums. No one plays in Canon FR except novels characters. Even Ed Greenwood plays on Toril-2, which is the "Golden Age" Forgotten Realms. It's just like Crisis on Infinite Earths. I play on FR-616 where there's all my slight changes to things and not so slight changes (Khelben will stay alive despite the time jump I'm sure but I'm still not quite caught up with 4E yet so that's largely a semantics change) It's possible to patch some of this. In J_K's Universe of Toril-2099, Alustriel might invite the Orcs to inhabit an uninhabited region so long as they renounce Gruumsh and allow teachers from Silverymoon amongst them. The PCs forced to work to help to bring Obould the II's kingdom to fruitation. and a New Netherese Empire might emerge with survivors from Shade working to make Anauroch a verdant paradise than engaging in war. But he might as well just keep his seperate IN THOSE AREAS.
MarkusTay63 10-28-07, 07:24 PM	@Mr_Miscellany - I'm trying to figure out how to respond to you, and everything I type I wind up erasing. For once, words fail me. Trust me, there is not on subject on this or any other planet you are capable of instructing me on. Are you going to next years Gencon? Perhaps you and I can have a little chat then. ;)
johnkretzer 10-28-07, 07:53 PM	As I stated in the Candlekeep Forums. No one plays in Canon FR except novels characters. Even Ed Greenwood plays on Toril-2, which is the "Golden Age" Forgotten Realms. It's just like Crisis on Infinite Earths. I play on FR-616 where there's all my slight changes to things and not so slight changes (Khelben will stay alive despite the time jump I'm sure but I'm still not quite caught up with 4E yet so that's largely a semantics change) It's possible to patch some of this. Oh I know this but I figure that WotC would be interesting to selling to the most people. Which is why I think more moderate and slower paced changes should be how they go. In J_K's Universe of Toril-2099, Alustriel might invite the Orcs to inhabit an uninhabited region so long as they renounce Gruumsh and allow teachers from Silverymoon amongst them. The PCs forced to work to help to bring Obould the II's kingdom to fruitation. Hey why is my FR game Toril 2099?:mad: ;) j/k Anyway I think maybe just maybe there is way to work this that would make me feel better about it. As I pointed out I like the history of the Odonti and I actualy like them then the WoW rip off of the savage but noble oppressed orcs they have started to paint the Northern Orcs as. Maybe Alustriel will invite them to start a community in the North. This can build as into a Kingdom as a protecorate of Silverymoon and well the PCs (among others) will have to protect them as well they are Eldath worshippers. And well old hatereds die hard. Hopefuly any new North soucebook will be compatible with this change. But this kingdom will grow quickly as some orcs might come in willingly looking for a better way and well now the PCs have a place to put the orc children and other non-combatents instead of putting them to the sword(which I always hate when good PCs do). and a New Netherese Empire might emerge with survivors from Shade working to make Anauroch a verdant paradise than engaging in war. This tougher to adjust to as it looks like they are going to take over Sembia(which plays a very big role in my game) and the fact that by level I mean level...there is maybe 30 something Shades left in the world and most of them are not in Anauroch. Though I guess the ones who left could attempt a take over of Sembia...mmmm. But that is a things that should be played out and not fiated. Though the city of Shade is right now a great adventure site... But he might as well just keep his seperate IN THOSE AREAS. Well Charles you are the first one to get my mind working on adapting some these changes with suggestions instead of the typical "You don't know enough" line. This is the reasons why I post my concerns is to get ideas. Thank you. While I need more thinking on the reemergence of the Netheril Empire I think I defintly like what you had inspired me to do with the "Orc Kingdom'.
Mr_Miscellany 10-28-07, 11:08 PM	Are you going to next years Gencon? Perhaps you and I can have a little chat then. ;) Sure! We could book one of the conference rooms. Probably'll need a big one, too. :D
GothicDan 10-28-07, 11:15 PM	Poor Markus. Mr. Miscellany's overbearing, offensive elitism was so much greater than even my own that he's been left without words. But now, bed time. Rush starts tomorrow! Stellis aequus durando!
Charles Phipps 10-28-07, 11:28 PM	Well glad I could help, I had often toyed with the Return of Netheril in my own games but never allied with Shar. If I wanted to do something akin to that, I'd probably have done it with Larloch and other Ancient Liches of that time working together and gathering up wizards who wanted to make their own super-mystical society. The possibility including exiles from Haruula and descendents of Netheril whom were interested in raising a new civilization. Frankly, with the destruction of Shade, I'd think the REAL rebirth of Netheril would be a lot more easilly accomplished.
MarkusTay63 10-28-07, 11:59 PM	Maybe in the 4e universe, Netheril never fell - both figuritvely and literally. Then Shade could still be there, but more of a normal flying city of archmages, rather then a creepy city of uber-shadow archmages. Hmmmm... trading one silly city of B-movie villains for a sky full of archmages.... Maybe thats not such a great deal afterall. :rolleyes: I think my curiousity is starting to overpower my Grognardianism. Does it count as "looking forward to" if you are eagerly awaiting for 4e FR, just so you can say "I told you so" for next five years? :P
johnkretzer 10-29-07, 01:29 AM	Well glad I could help, I had often toyed with the Return of Netheril in my own games but never allied with Shar. If I wanted to do something akin to that, I'd probably have done it with Larloch and other Ancient Liches of that time working together and gathering up wizards who wanted to make their own super-mystical society. The possibility including exiles from Haruula and descendents of Netheril whom were interested in raising a new civilization. Frankly, with the destruction of Shade, I'd think the REAL rebirth of Netheril would be a lot more easilly accomplished. This is what I did to the city of Shade(I think I went into this before on different threads) I look at it and thought what would the other power fraction be to the return of the city of Shade.... It is a treasure house of lost magical lore...I mean they are legends about it. So I decided that most of them would want it. Or atleast keep someone else from getting it. Thus after a vicious and short war that saw forces from Zhentarim, Thay, Calminshan, Cormry, Harpers, Sembia even hired the Flaming Fist Mercenaries(plus a few others) working somewhat together(the local commanders decided that it was better to put aside difference till the threat of the City of Shade was dealt with) till the city of Shade was destroyed. Then everything got really confusing real quick. Now those forces are fighting and salvaging over renamants. Personaly I want to run a campaign on this though it hasn't materialized yet... The remaining Shade as I mention are few in number and mostly have fled Anauroch. None of them are the uber NPCs(I have been generaly very disappointed in their high level NPCs of late and perfer to create my own) as they all die. Now I think I'll concentrate most of the Shade refugees in Sembia and have them attempt to control it. But I think you are right I think my opposition here is to ignore the new stuff as they um seem to be dead set on having a new Nerthril Empire and I can't allow that to happen in Anauroch as I have done too much work there to make it a cool campaign. And I can't allow Sembia to fall as I have lots of PCs who propably would want to get involved in the fighting and I hate saying oh hey guess what you castle is now in the new Nerthril Empire. So I have to see how that turns out.
Charles Phipps 10-29-07, 02:08 AM	PCS: Yay, we rule Netheril! John_Kretzer: No.
Charles Phipps 10-29-07, 02:15 AM	But yes, were I in your campaign and were in your position. Presuming you actually want to bring in line your game with canon and not want to disrupt your game then I would probably do this. 1. The PCs are being contacted by individuals who do want to start building up a Netherese Empire. Specifically, Ex-Sharn whom were freed from their epic curse by Khelben's curse. They're also supported by apprentices of the Skulls and more or less intend to start rebuilding Netheril the old fashioned way. They're interested in also trying to consolidate the magical gains they acquire. The PCs won't find them to be LG types but a mixture of alignments. Neither good or evil, they're mostly afraid of the Phaerimm's rebirth and interested in establishing a magical Empire to the North because they're afraid of being hedged out by the changing events elsewhere. Thus, it would be similiar to the Netheril of canon except that it would be far more reasonable in power magically and also more variable in alignment. Either that or you could bring back the Selune Worshipping Netherese City that's also supposed to be trapped somewhere, the PCs could find out about it and bring it forth to help fight the Phaerimm. 2. The best thing to do in this regard is to not jump your guns. Most likely the Shade plot in Sembia is going to be resolved in the Erevis Cale books as opposed to being a shade (pun intended) of things to come. However, in this case it's entirely possible that the PCs successfully thwart the efforts of the bad guys. And have to root out the Shade work in the land. Were I you, I'd give the Shades access to the Twilight Stone (Major Artifact) that allows individuals to be turned into Shadovar and make them having been rebuilding. Thus, the PCs accomplsihment isn't undone but there's an ample supply of bad guys to face.
johnkretzer 10-29-07, 02:30 AM	PCS: Yay, we rule Netheril! John_Kretzer: No. ? :confused: ?
Charles Phipps 10-29-07, 02:33 AM	? :confused: ? I'm making a crack. If you said an Empire was about to appear in my PC's backyard, they'd assume it was going to be theres.
johnkretzer 10-29-07, 02:35 AM	But yes, were I in your campaign and were in your position. Presuming you actually want to bring in line your game with canon and not want to disrupt your game then I would probably do this. I think I am going have to wait to see what happens with Sembia and Anauroch to decide what will actualy happens. And it is not bringing my game to canon...it just has to be close enough to canon that new players who know canon will have "ok so it is a little bit different" reaction...and not"Oh my god, what have you done?" I mean really I am against large changes to canon more because of canon facists then anything else.
Charles Phipps 10-29-07, 02:36 AM	Honestly, I sometimes loathe my players. Not one of them is a FR fan outside of our games.
johnkretzer 10-29-07, 02:37 AM	I'm making a crack. If you said an Empire was about to appear in my PC's backyard, they'd assume it was going to be theres. Ah...well I am sure one of mine players will have that dream...he might even succeed. Who knows? I never know where my campaigns might end.
WhrenKehrsyn 10-29-07, 04:19 PM	-Those are some good analogies. The problem with 'generic D&D campaign' is that what the PCs do starts off relativley minor (saving Little Jimmy from the three Orcs who kidnapped him), but grow in scope, size and importance. Circa 10th level or so, the PCs are powerhouses, and can deal with world changing events, literally. For example, a 10th level adventure can inclusing stopping a mad wizard from activating a magical device that can disfigure everyone in Cormyr. It's at times like these when someone can definitley wonder, "Well, where is Vangey, if all of Cormyr is going to be in the magical radius?". Hes working with the PCs, but on another aspect of the situation, and they just need to be dealing with the part they are. No one, not even the PCs or NPCs can be everywhere at once. Theres dozens of other reasons for Vangey or any other NPC to not be there. If a DM isnt competent enough to run a game thats not the fault of the setting and the setting shouldnt be punished for it.
Mr_Miscellany 10-29-07, 07:25 PM	Mr. Miscellany's overbearing, offensive elitism was so much greater than even my own that he's been left without words. Yawn. I think I'll borrow a phrase from Rinonalyrna: Your point? The 'throw it back in their faces' game only works when that's actually what you're doing, Dan. But keep trying! :P
Lord Karsus 10-31-07, 12:53 PM	If a DM isnt competent enough to run a game thats not the fault of the setting and the setting shouldnt be punished for it. -Which is the point of all of this. Yawn. I think I'll borrow a phrase from Rinonalyrna: Your point? The 'throw it back in their faces' game only works when that's actually what you're doing, Dan. But keep trying! :P -Eh, you're both about on par with each other. Dan is far to one side (the Right, I guess, for a lack of better words), and you're far to the other side (the Left, again, for a lack of better words). You're both equally overbearing.
Stigger 10-31-07, 04:10 PM	Can't we all just get along? :P
GothicDan 10-31-07, 09:12 PM	I mostly consider myself a centrist. I think everyone talks a lot of BS, on both sides, that everyone is ultimately out for themselves (and by extension, their personal, subjective beliefs), and that there's no way we can properly 'balance' the scales at this point - they're too large and fluctuate too much. So mostly, I do what I want and fight for what I want. Things that target 'groups' don't phase me. Like the idea about breeding homosexuality out of rams for purposes of breeding, doesn't upset me at all as it does a lot of gays who have learned about the idea. And... If Mr. Miscellany's above post isn't screaming elitism and personal bias, I don't know what is. Honestly, all "trying to throw it back in his face" aside, if that isn't it, then I need a few new dictionaries and such. Then again, we did have that huge, hypocritical thing about 'zealots' running around for a long time. Anyway, I've already derailed this WAY too much. If anyone ACTUALLY wants to discuss things, PM me or catch me via AIM amidst all of the research, GREs, classes, fraternity Rushing, and attempts to sleep.
18DELTA 05-05-08, 04:27 PM	-Talk about thread Ressurection!!!:P :bump: 18D:P
Stigger 05-05-08, 04:35 PM	*Pelts Delta with putrefying herring*
18DELTA 05-05-08, 04:44 PM	*Pelts Delta with putrefying herring* -:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :coolcthul 18D:P
Lord Karsus 05-05-08, 09:52 PM	-Yeah...Or, at least pick better threads to practice necromancy on.
18DELTA 05-06-08, 08:51 AM	-Yeah...Or, at least pick better threads to practice necromancy on. -Hey I am sharpening my Skillz.:P 18D;)
GreenKnight 05-06-08, 09:09 AM	http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/264957/2263702necro1.jpghttp://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/264957/2263703necro2.jpg
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-06-08, 01:03 PM	Let the dead remain in their graves. People just want to feel like they have power over death or something.:noway:
Alediran 05-06-08, 03:52 PM	Let the dead remain in their graves. People just want to feel like they have power over death or something.:noway: Silly Necromancers.