Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dargoth 10-21-03, 07:56 PM	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/manyarrows Lots of stuff about Orcs and the Silver Marches
TomCosta 10-22-03, 09:01 AM	Thanks. Glad you liked it.
loki87 10-22-03, 09:22 AM	Great article, Tom. I have one question though: Over the ensuing years, he has subsumed other tribes into his own, and now has at his disposal a veritable army of over two thousand orc warriors... Is that supposed to say "two-hundred thousand" orc warriors? Anyway, keep up the great work! :D
TomCosta 10-22-03, 02:54 PM	I think the number is accurate as written based on what was in the various sources. IIRC, that number is straight from Silver Marches. I'll double check. If you don't hear from me it's correct. :-)
Mirtek 10-22-03, 05:42 PM	Originally posted by loki87 Is that supposed to say "two-hundred thousand" orc warriors? Well, it could have been that many, if they just had learned to work together instead of fighting each other
avian tiefling 10-22-03, 09:38 PM	Originally posted by Mirtek Well, it could have been that many, if they just had learned to work together instead of fighting each other :heehee: large numbers of orcs working together :rofl:
Mirtek 10-22-03, 09:40 PM	Originally posted by avian tiefling :heehee: orc working together. :rofl: During a quarter century of D&D history Orcs have been lawful evil, that is until 3e suddenly changed them to chaotic evil without any real explanation or reason (except reducing the orc vs. elves thing to a pure evil vs. good conflict, without the law vs. chaos component). Until 3e orcs were pretty organized and well structured.
Dargoth 10-22-03, 09:43 PM	Originally posted by Mirtek During a quarter century of D&D history Orcs have been lawful evil, that is until 3e suddenly changed them to chaotic evil without any real explanation or reason (except reducing the orc vs. elves thing to a pure evil vs. good conflict, without the law vs. chaos component). Until 2e orcs were pretty organized and well structured. Well now Orcs reflect there deities While Orcs where LE, there gods have always been CE now with the 2 step rule this would mean the Orc gods could not have Orc followers
avian tiefling 10-22-03, 09:46 PM	hypothetically, it should be true that the more orcs you have gathered in the same general vicinity, the more the chances that one will start a fight that could escalate to a full fledged riot. :fight!:
Mirtek 10-22-03, 09:48 PM	Originally posted by Dargoth Well now Orcs reflect there deities While Orcs where LE, there gods have always been CE now with the 2 step rule this would mean the Orc gods could not have Orc followers No, in the past the orc gods were LE as well. It all suddenly changed with 3e And of course they had their realm on a Lawful Evil Plane At first they lived in the Nine Hells, but later moved to Acheron, the off-game explanation was to seperate them from the archfiends, since it was hard to explain why the many real gods of Hell didn't already depose of the weaker archfiends, AFAIK there never has been a real in-game explanations, only in-game rumors.
loki87 10-22-03, 09:56 PM	Originally posted by Mirtek No, in the past the orc gods were LE as well. It all suddenly changed with 3e Hmmm, I always thought Gruumsh was CE. :confused: *searches frantically for his Faiths and Avatars book*
Dargoth 10-22-03, 09:56 PM	Originally posted by loki87 Hmmm, I always thought Gruumsh was CE. :confused: *searches frantically for his Faiths and Avatars book* me to
Mirtek 10-22-03, 09:57 PM	Originally posted by loki87 *searches frantically for his Faiths and Avatars book* He isn't in F&A. He also not in either DDG or P&P. He's in Monster Mythology and he was indeed LE in 2e (and had his realm in Acheron, a LE plane)
loki87 10-22-03, 10:32 PM	Originally posted by Mirtek He isn't in F&A. He also not in either DDG or P&P. He's in Monster Mythology and he was indeed LE in 2e (and had his realm in Acheron, a LE plane) You are quite correct, sir! All that aside, I think I prefer orcs as CE, it just seems to fit my thinking of them. Let the Hobgoblins be the more organized ones, while orcs should embody chaos and bloodlust!
TomCosta 10-23-03, 08:55 AM	A couple things. The two-thousand number comes straight from the 3E FRCS, p. 175. And as has already been stated by Mirtek, orcs and their gods were always LE (except for the orc god of thieves IIRC, who was always NE) going all the way back to 1E and through 2E. This is part of the reason they were based on the LE/LN plane of Acheron in previous editions (though they were briefly placed in the Hells).
Crust 10-23-03, 09:52 AM	Really, really cool article. Makes me wish I had set up my campaign in the North.
loki87 10-23-03, 10:11 AM	Originally posted by TomCosta A couple things. The two-thousand number comes straight from the 3E FRCS, p. 175. Thanks for the double-check, Tom. The only reason I asked, is that with orc hordes 40,000 and 150,000 strong, two-thousand seemed like such a small number. However, it does make sense, since Obould is rebuilding his power. Anyway, thanks again for a great article. I can't wait to DM my next FR campaign. :D
Masakado 10-23-03, 10:27 AM	Originally posted by loki87 Thanks for the double-check, Tom. The only reason I asked, is that with orc hordes 40,000 and 150,000 strong, two-thousand seemed like such a small number. That's the thing. Population figures have always been sorta wacko. I remember in 2ed when Calimshan had a population of two million. ;) Thanks to this article, it seems as though my Silver Marches sourcebook will finally see a tour of duty. :thumbsup:
cwslyclgh 10-23-03, 01:09 PM	according to Silver Marches (page 34) Oubold has 2000 or so orcs that live with him in in his fortress (of Darkarrow Keep), and another 2,500 or so that live near by in caves and villages. which still leaves him a bit on the small side as far as number of "fighting orcs" goes for orc tribes listed in that book (such as the Tornsykulls w/5000 etc.)
TomCosta 10-23-03, 02:15 PM	Keep in mind two things. There was never any effort to rationalize the population numbers prior to 3E, so the numbers were completely screwy in prior editions. I think the 3E FR team did a great job in trying to rationalize it with more plausable numbers that reflected a more Medieval/Renaissance-level population numbers. I'd chalk up older numbers to the difficulty of deriving accurate numbers without modern polling and sampling techniques and telecommunications and a very natural desire to exaggerate these sort of things to make them seem more impressive. Regarding Obould specifically, despite his abilities, he got hammered when he lost the citadel, so getting 2000 warriors (not his entire population, just the warriors) is pretty impressive, especially when you consider the new numbers being used for the various military forces.
satans_advocate 10-23-03, 02:45 PM	yea if you look at the armies in the silver marches book and look at the numbers the silver marches are in my opinion outclassed. if somehow obould does get full cooperation from the frost giants with no betrayals oboulds army can pretty well smash any silver marches army. kind of ironic that while the orcs are organizing the silver marches are squabling amoungst themselves.
ElGrecoETAC 10-23-03, 04:02 PM	Keep in mind also that the article referred to in this thread states that these Orcs in Obould's secret HQ are the toughest he had. They are likely more capable and experienced than the average Horde Orc. Obould is specifically cited as holding this "elite" force in reserve, to be used after the Horde weakens the Silver Marches. I imagine that he COUNTS on the Horde losing, but inflicting enough damage where he can take the Citadel back with his own warriors. Then, it's a simple matter of cult of personality/victory during bad times rallying the remnants of the Horde to his banner. Whether that actually works or not remains to be seen, of course. Poor Obould--too visionary and logical to be an Orc. ;)
Celtavian 10-24-03, 02:17 AM	The only thing that bothers me about Obould is that he is 9th level in the FRCS. C'mon now, a 9th level orc barbarian with a 12th or 13th level orc shaman at his disposal would be dead meat in the Silver Marches. I fail to see why they couldn't have made him an epic 20th plus level Orc Barbarian. Then he would seem like someone the Silver Marches should fear. I hope by the time he attacks he is that level. Other wise my suspension of disbelief will be ruined. When writing novels based on D&D, there should be at least some semblance of believability if someone were analyzing the novel using the game rules. Even if it is simply "the orc gods protect Obould". At the moment, Alustriel or one of the many high level magi in the Silver Marches could annihilate him. If he is that much of a threat, you think they would have done so.
Mirtek 10-24-03, 05:31 AM	Originally posted by Celtavian I fail to see why they couldn't have made him an epic 20th plus level Orc Barbarian. Then he would seem like someone the Silver Marches should fear. I hope by the time he attacks he is that level. Other wise my suspension of disbelief will be ruined. When writing novels based on D&D, there should be at least some semblance of believability if someone were analyzing the novel using the game rules. Even if it is simply "the orc gods protect Obould". Most people are spoiled by all the epic level stuff and fail to notice that 9th level is awesome. Even his own elite orcs are War3 a t best (maybe elite only refers to the fact that the are Ftr1 instead of the ordinary War1). 9th level is already high level and far above the common soldier you will encounter in any ordinary army. He could cut his way through several units of the Silver Marches army all on his own.
Nightdruid 10-24-03, 07:36 AM	Originally posted by loki87 Thanks for the double-check, Tom. The only reason I asked, is that with orc hordes 40,000 and 150,000 strong, two-thousand seemed like such a small number. However, it does make sense, since Obould is rebuilding his power. Well, gotta remember that most of those 190,000 orcs are dead (since an army of about 1,000 wimpy dwarves and 'umans beat the survivors ;) ). It's only been 5 years in game time since that battle. Even for orcs, it'll take quite some time to rebuild their hordes, probably another couple of generations. Couple of questions, though. 1) I'm kinda shocked that Obould didn't lose any sons (or wives, for that matter) in the fall of the Citadel. Also, the number of his sons & wives seems a little low; he probably should have lost a bunch at the fall, and his 8 sons are all that's left (out of say 50 or more). 2) When exactly were the orc gods in the Nine Hells? The original MotP? I've heard that referenced often, but I'm not sure on the source.
Crust 10-24-03, 07:44 AM	Celtavian does have a point. Any one of Alustriel's lesser magelings could quite easily scry Obould, teleport in, and waste him with a prismatic spray. Case closed. Of course, Obould's power lies in numbers, but a wizard of at least 15th level could prepare spells enough so that he or she could not only casually slay Obould, but take out a number of his upper-level orcs, and a few of his sons, with a moderate ammount of effort and escape without suffering so much as a scratch. And we have the Hunter's Blades Trilogy. Are we supposed to be excited about the seemingly eventual meeting between Obould and Drizzt? Obould is a novice compared to any of Drizzt companions, and the dark elf himself would probably cut him down without even knowing he just slew the orc leader. People might be spoiled with the epic levels that are possible now, but for an entire region of Faerun to be one their toes over an orc, that orc had better be enough to give Breunor, Alustriel, and Emerus something to sweat over. Obould ain't it. Then, of course, if Obould can convince half his army to commit mass suicide (as was done long ago at the Battle of Many Arrows), then we might have... well, something, I suppose.
The Eye of the Cyclop 10-24-03, 08:25 AM	As you probably didn't realize yet, the final showdown will surely put Drizzt against that frost giant ***** Gertti. CR18 against CR18. That would be a good fight.
Crust 10-24-03, 08:40 AM	I was under the impression that Gerti would die of old age before the end of the series. She seems to be on death's door... Either that, or she'll be killed and another giant (possibly her son?) will take her place.
Masakado 10-24-03, 09:14 AM	Originally posted by Crust Celtavian does have a point. Any one of Alustriel's lesser magelings could quite easily scry Obould, teleport in, and waste him with a prismatic spray. Case closed.. And what would this accomplish? If you look at the dynamics of the tribe, Obould is probably (if there is such a thing) the most level-headed orc of the tribe. Killing Obould would throw the tribe into temporary chaos, but most likely Obould would soon be replaced by one of the war-mongering, Gruumsh-fearing orcs & a war would loom over the horizon much sooner than it would with Obould at the helm of the tribe. As Obould rebuilds, the rest of the Marches has time to fortify in preparation for an enemy with whom they're well acquainted with..... ..... and have beaten before.... badly... :ayyyy!: Sun Tzu says that if you must fight, fight the enemy you know, not the enemy you don't know. Also, there aren't an abundance of 15th level mages in the Marches, & the orcs are probably aware that most of the powerful mages that lie in the region most likely hail from Silverymoon. What happens when the orcs slaughter some hinter village's occupants to the last man, woman & child in retaliation for an Silverymoon-planned magical assassination? I would not want to be Taern Hornblade nor Alustriel if that happened. Originally posted by Crust Then, of course, if Obould can convince half his army to commit mass suicide (as was done long ago at the Battle of Many Arrows), then we might have... well, something, I suppose. You folks are not thinking like orcs, which is good, I suppose. The orcs will not suicide against Silverymoon. They will raid lesser protected villages that the Marches Compact is supposed to defend, and murder everyone. Knowing orcs, they'll also leave plenty of hints as to why they've gone homocidal. Probably a few selectively-placed, pike-impaled heads with "Vengence for Obould" carved in the forehead, or something equally dramatic. :tantrum: Orcs are crazy like that.. :looloo: There are already tempers flaring on the Marches council because of the orcs. Stirring them up would be a good way to send council members packing in their own respective directions, as they will be split on how to best handle the situation. Especially if Silverymoon is directly implicated in Obould's killing, & the increase in orc raids can be directly attributed to the assassination.
Crust 10-24-03, 09:37 AM	Very well said. Though, I imagine there are a bunch of powerful wizards in Silverymoon. I can't imagine the only moderately powerful wizards there are Thunderspells and Alustriel. Just because they're not in a soucebook doesn't mean they don't exist.
Masakado 10-24-03, 09:49 AM	Originally posted by Crust Very well said. Though, I imagine there are a bunch of powerful wizards in Silverymoon. I can't imagine the only moderately powerful wizard there are Thunderspells and Alustriel. Just because they're not in a soucebook doesn't mean they don't exist. Very true, but Silverymoon (and Luskan to a lesser extent) has been synonimous with "magic" in the North for quite some time. If Obould were killed by a magical attack, the orcs would probably assume by reflex that Silverymoon was responsible, even if they later on they were proved to be wrong. It's not like the orcs would care about being wrong, nor stop their raids if evidence came to light to exonerate Silverymoon. The assassination will provoke the orcs to be particularly vengeful & bloodthirsty.. Like they need a reason to be vengeful & bloodthirsty in the first place.. ;) Luskan would have more to gain by sending one of their own Hosttower mages to kill Obould, than Silverymoon would.
Crust 10-24-03, 10:03 AM	Wouldn't that be an interesting vice to close down around the orcs? It really makes me wonder how effective a dozen or so flying, fire-and-lightning-hurling mages would be against a horde of orcs.
Masakado 10-24-03, 10:34 AM	Originally posted by Crust Wouldn't that be an interesting vice to close down around the orcs? It really makes me wonder how effective a dozen or so flying, fire-and-lightning-hurling mages would be against a horde of orcs. An interesting scenario I might have to run for fun one weekend. :mage:
ATRAUS 10-24-03, 06:38 PM	I don't know about any of you, but I have taken Obould and ran with him. I agree with some of the folks who suggested bumping him up a bit and increasing the size of his army. Of course, as DM's we all do this as we advance the timelines of our respective worlds. Obould has become a major villain in my campaign (though no one in the party has ever laid eyes on him) and forging their own army to defend against him has become the focus of the campaign. Also, Masakado makes excellent points in his Sun Tzu analysis of the situation. Players see wars as relatively simple affairs with a lot of sword swinging and spell slinging. As DM's, we have to consider things like politicial and economic ramifications of such things so that our game world has a sense of realism. As an aside, what is more fun as a DM, than an orc with a brain and perhaps some magic support? Players never expect that. I think Sun Tzu would agree. hehe
satans_advocate 10-26-03, 12:28 AM	yea, i mean obould is intelligent, a bloody genius amoung the orcs. dont just make him another mindless horde general. make him political. in my opinion what the book tried to instill is how fragile it all was, the outward appearence was a facade to the fragility of the alliance. All the orcs need is to attack outlying communities that the bigger cities cant afford to protect and than you will have a seperation of allies. when that is done he can attack with impunity as long as he stays away from the citadels and silverymoon
Celtavian 10-26-03, 02:05 AM	Originally posted by Mirtek Most people are spoiled by all the epic level stuff and fail to notice that 9th level is awesome. Even his own elite orcs are War3 a t best (maybe elite only refers to the fact that the are Ftr1 instead of the ordinary War1). 9th level is already high level and far above the common soldier you will encounter in any ordinary army. He could cut his way through several units of the Silver Marches army all on his own. The Forgotten Realms has set certain standards for power that must be taken into account when designing enemies. I did not create these standards, but I understand how they work from both a story and game rule perspective. I don't expect a writer to religiously follow the rules. That would make it impossible to write an interesting novel. But I do expect them to understand and use some semblance of the rules. That means designing enemies that could at least feasibly challenge the good powers of a certain area. I'm sorry to say a 9th level Orc Barbarian couldn't even challenge Alustriel's children. That is not a good, believable villain.
Masakado 10-27-03, 03:43 PM	Originally posted by Celtavian I'm sorry to say a 9th level Orc Barbarian couldn't even challenge Alustriel's children. That is not a good, believable villain. Why would Obould bother to challenge one of Alustriel's children in direct combat? That's what a 10,000 member strong orc horde is for. Obould didn't get to be where he is by placing himself in harm's way whenever possible. Obould's consort doubles as his assassin. That should speak volumes. As with Black Lorog, most of Obould's menace comes from the remarkably competant orcs he surrounds himself with, & not his own personal might. Also note that none of the Aerasumé boys go looking for trouble at the Citadel of Many Arrows, either. ;) Statements like Celt's are proof positive that post 2ed FR is in dire need of old-school fluff books. Too much focus on stats. :rolleyes:
Knightcrawler 10-27-03, 07:54 PM	I'm thinking that we the Players Guide comes out that there will be an update to Obould. They'll most likely add a couple of levels of the Orc Warlord PrC from races of Faerun. It seems custom made just for him.
Masakado 10-27-03, 07:59 PM	Originally posted by Knightcrawler I'm thinking that we the Players Guide comes out that there will be an update to Obould. They'll most likely add a couple of levels of the Orc Warlord PrC from races of Faerun. It seems custom made just for him. :thumbsup: I was thinking the same thing. I'd have posted to the "Faerunian NPC Eratta" thread & have the Shadowsil revamp him, but that thread is ginormous in size.
loki87 10-27-03, 08:02 PM	I'm sorry to say a 9th level Orc Barbarian couldn't even challenge Alustriel's children. That is not a good, believable villain. Obould is as powerful as anyone in the Realms, because he has the means to rally tens or even hundreds of thousands of orcs to fight for him. The so-called powers of the Silver Marches are having a hard time keeping their fledgling nation together, let alone massing any kind of serious defense. The problem with playing the game is you assume that big stats = worldly or political power. I'm here to tell you that some of the most powerful beings in the Realms couldn't even take out a 2nd level party by themselves in combat. But who the hell needs levels when you enough gold to buy your own army of high level characters, or enough clout to force an entire nation to your will. Experience points do not necessarily equal power.
Celtavian 10-28-03, 02:27 AM	Originally posted by Masakado Why would Obould bother to challenge one of Alustriel's children in direct combat? That's what a 10,000 member strong orc horde is for. Obould didn't get to be where he is by placing himself in harm's way whenever possible. Obould's consort doubles as his assassin. That should speak volumes. As with Black Lorog, most of Obould's menace comes from the remarkably competant orcs he surrounds himself with, & not his own personal might. Also note that none of the Aerasumé boys go looking for trouble at the Citadel of Many Arrows, either. ;) Statements like Celt's are proof positive that post 2ed FR is in dire need of old-school fluff books. Too much focus on stats. :rolleyes: He should still have a reasonable chance of slaying a powerful foe in battle. If the very leader of the orcs can't even stand up in single combat against the leader of another army, then he is too weak. Get a clue. He is not fearsome. He is not even a single bit scary as is. Follow the standards of the game. For example, at least Manshoon is at least reasonably believable as a villain. He is high level. He is long-lived. He is powerful. Very believable villain even against foes like the Chosen in the books and as a statted out character. Artemis Entreri is equal to Driz'zt in almost every way. Very tough sword. Quick, agile, very capable. He is a very believable and challenging villain for Driz'zt in the books and as a statted out character. The books and the game should somewhat coincide. That means Obould should be the equal or nearly the equal of his foes. A 9th level Barbarian orc don't cut it and utterly ruins my suspension of disbelief. Every single orc horde I've ever created has a 9th level or higher orc running it. This is not only better from a rules perspective, but also fits the story of an epic orc king that inspires fear when he comes. Your proclamation that I'm too worried about stats is :rolleyes: I want a believable story. You don't hear me complain about other villains like Manshoon or Artemis because they were thought out both from a story and game standpoint. I don't see why they wouldn't do the same with this legendary orc king.
Celtavian 10-28-03, 02:29 AM	Originally posted by loki87 I'm sorry to say a 9th level Orc Barbarian couldn't even challenge Alustriel's children. That is not a good, believable villain. Obould is as powerful as anyone in the Realms, because he has the means to rally tens or even hundreds of thousands of orcs to fight for him. The so-called powers of the Silver Marches are having a hard time keeping their fledgling nation together, let alone massing any kind of serious defense. The problem with playing the game is you assume that big stats = worldly or political power. I'm here to tell you that some of the most powerful beings in the Realms couldn't even take out a 2nd level party by themselves in combat. But who the hell needs levels when you enough gold to buy your own army of high level characters, or enough clout to force an entire nation to your will. Experience points do not necessarily equal power. This is patently false. Why would you even utter this nonsense given the number of powerful people in the Realms? Overall the Realms has been fairly good at tying level, stats and power to their heroes and villains from a story and game standpoint.
Crust 10-28-03, 08:04 AM	Originally posted by Knightcrawler I'm thinking that we the Players Guide comes out that there will be an update to Obould. They'll most likely add a couple of levels of the Orc Warlord PrC from races of Faerun. It seems custom made just for him. But this shouldn't even need to be done. The most annoying thing about FR (and 3.0/3.5, whatever) is the fact that books are released without the slightest thought toward future releases. The FRCS comes out, and we have this half-a$$ed take on epic levels. Fine. Then Lords of Darkness comes out, and we have Larloch with 12 improved spell capacity slots, making him a titan of spellcasting might, dropping the jaws of all who view his stats. Then the Epic book is released, totally squashing the epic rules in the FRCS, creating nothing more than wasted pages in a dated book that's only 2 years old! Then 3.5 comes out... :rolleyes: Who knows how many books 3.5 has made obsolete? The entire brown book set? How many feats in the half dozen sourcebooks are now subject to annoying change with the creation of 3.5? How many spells should be changed to coincide with the new rules? Why wasn't this stuff thought out beforehand? It's amazing how sloppy this whole process seems from my viewpoint. Sure, I don't work behind the scenes, so maybe I should keep my mouth shut, but this is the sort of thing that I think professionals would WANT to have figured out before they publish a book. Now that 3.5 exists, people are expecting revamped stats, new rules re-explaining the info in the FRCS... This should never have had to happen. It's like Wizards is being given a change to turn in a second draft on a failed assignment. It doesn't sit well. I wonder how the design teams and writers feel about this? Are they happy about this sort of blunder?
Masakado 10-28-03, 08:26 AM	Originally posted by Celtavian Get a clue. He is not fearsome. He is not even a single bit scary as is. Follow the standards of the game. Please. Despite being surrounded by all of these powerful foes (Taern, Alustriel, etc.) as well as being defeated in combat by them, Obould is still alive to command his armies, which is a testament to his resourcefulness. Originally posted by Celtavian The books and the game should somewhat coincide. That means Obould should be the equal or nearly the equal of his foes. A 9th level Barbarian orc don't cut it and utterly ruins my suspension of disbelief.. Why? Because Obould is just an orc & doesn't spit lighting, or have a +9 Keen Icy Burst Sword o' Doom, therefore he cannot match a Chosen of Mystra on the battlefield? As I said before, Obould doesn't need to personally oppose his foes on the battlefield. Why should he? That's what armies are for. We're talking about rulers. Few, if any, of the conflicts that the individuals we're discussing may be involved in, will be solved by one-on-one combat between rulers. They will be solved by armies & strategy, & if Obould is stupid enough, or arrogant enough, to be goaded into personal combat with someone that can easily beat him, then he deserves whatever fate he gets. Your "mano y mano" rule doesn't quite wash with me. By your logic, Lex Luthor is not a believable villain because he doesn't have a kajillion powers like Superman does, and Cardinal Richelieu (Three Musketeers bad guy version) isn't a believable villain because he's nowhere near the caliber of swordsman that D'artangian is. "If you give me six lines written by the most honest man, I will find something in them to hang him." —Cardinal Richelieu (Real Life Quote) Your logic is quite lacking. And, naturally, your logic begs the question, "If so many of Obould's enemies are much higher in personal power than he is, why isn't Obould dead yet?" None of the "powerful regional entities" have taken advantage of Obould's relative weakness & marched on the Citadel, nor have they tried to take him out themselves, so there must be something more to Obould than mere character levels. Again, too much focus on raw stats. Originally posted by Celtavian I want a believable story. You don't hear me complain about other villains like Manshoon or Artemis because they were thought out both from a story and game standpoint. I don't see why they wouldn't do the same with this legendary orc king. As mentioned above, I'd like to see a couple of levels of the Orc Warlord PrC tacked onto Obould because, IMO, the PrC would certainly flesh him out a bit more. Statwise, he's fine.
Celtavian 10-29-03, 07:42 AM	Originally posted by Masakado Please. Despite being surrounded by all of these powerful foes (Taern, Alustriel, etc.) as well as being defeated in combat by them, Obould is still alive to command his armies, which is a testament to his resourcefulness. No, it isn't. It's a testament to poor design of the character. They shouldn't even have bothered statting him out if they were going to make him a gnat against giants. Why? Because Obould is just an orc & doesn't spit lighting, or have a +9 Keen Icy Burst Sword o' Doom, therefore he cannot match a Chosen of Mystra on the battlefield? Taking shots when I didn't once imply that he needed such powerful weaponry. You really don't know what I mean do you. I'm talking about making an Azoun-like orc king. A level 20 or so orc fighter with a powerful magical weapon reasonable for a FR king claimed perhaps from one of the many enemies he must have defeated to become such a prominent orc king or maybe passed to him from his father. I do own alot of FR source material and more than a few novels. I'm not thinking like a player who needs a "+9 keen, icy burst sword o' doom" to think of a character as powerful. I'm thinking in terms of a FR DM and reader who feels that they have done a good job of making villains commensurate to the hero. Where the hero's challenge is believable from a both a story and game standpoint. To me that means being personally powerful as well as being clever and tactical. As I said before, Obould doesn't need to personally oppose his foes on the battlefield. Why should he? That's what armies are for. An army still needs symmetrical forces to do the job. If you read about the attack upon Myth Drannor, they brought quite a bit of power to do the job. They needed it. I don't believe a single orc army of 100,000 or 200,000 is enough to do the job. It will be annihilated without a powerful figurehead with equally powerful help. All past major Realmsian threats had a powerful figurehead. In Cormyr, an ancient red dragon. The Shades in Evereska. Three very powerful Loth's against Myth Drannor. We're talking about rulers. Few, if any, of the conflicts that the individuals we're discussing may be involved in, will be solved by one-on-one combat between rulers. They will be solved by armies & strategy, & if Obould is stupid enough, or arrogant enough, to be goaded into personal combat with someone that can easily beat him, then he deserves whatever fate he gets. Your "mano y mano" rule doesn't quite wash with me. It does in the FR. Ever read much FR source material about their battles or the major Realms threats. The rulers generally fight, even the wizards eventually get drawn into the fight. Or do you feel this precedent hasn't been set in the FR? I'll bet money Alustriel and the other rulers in the Silver Marches will be hammering away with their armies. You want to bet against me? Bruenor, Taern, the other dwarf kings, etc, etc. Wanna bet? By your logic, Lex Luthor is not a believable villain because he doesn't have a kajillion powers like Superman does, and Cardinal Richelieu (Three Musketeers bad guy version) isn't a believable villain because he's nowhere near the caliber of swordsman that D'artangian is. Different setting entirely. Lex Luthor and Cardinal Richelieu are hardly orc kings who had to earn their position through battle. This is comparing apples and oranges. You think these two villains are in any way similar to Obould Many-arrows? Not to mention the stories with Lex Luthor and Cardinal Richilieu were entirely different. I know them both fairly well. I could point out to you how these villains were well-designed to deal with their enemies with the established framework of the literary world in which they live. Remember, the established world also has alot of to do with villain design. FR has certain established parameters on magic and power. "If you give me six lines written by the most honest man, I will find something in them to hang him." —Cardinal Richelieu (Real Life Quote) Your logic is quite lacking. And, naturally, your logic begs the question, "If so many of Obould's enemies are much higher in personal power than he is, why isn't Obould dead yet?" None of the "powerful regional entities" have taken advantage of Obould's relative weakness & marched on the Citadel, nor have they tried to take him out themselves, so there must be something more to Obould than mere character levels. Again, too much focus on raw stats. Too little focus on stats, thus to little focus on believability. You give no reason why the leaders of the Silver Marches haven't annihilated this guy? According to this guys level and the level of his cohorts, he shouldn't be anything more than the standard threat of a huge orc horde. Big deal. This is the FR where more than a few of the principal defenders of the Silver Marches have stood against worse than Obould can offer. The defenders of the Silver Marches repelled an invasion force from Menzoberanzzan led by villains many times more powerful than Obould. The situation with Oboulds level and stats may not hurt your suspension of disbelief, but it certainly does mine. I expect the game rules to be used as a framework for balancing a powerful hero versus a powerful enemy. I don't expect exact balance or the authors to be slaves to the rules. But there should be a semblance of equality to validate the threat. As mentioned above, I'd like to see a couple of levels of the Orc Warlord PrC tacked onto Obould because, IMO, the PrC would certainly flesh him out a bit more. Statwise, he's fine. I'd like to see Obould raised to an Azoun level orc with some serious Arthurian-type history. He should be powerful enough to slay a firegiant or two in single combat. His battle prowess should be so far ahead of his brethern that few if any would dare to challenge him. That's the kind of orc king I want to see. He should have some bad ass Orc or half-orc wizard or sorcerer working for him as well as a higher level cleric and a serious contingent of slaverishly loyal priests of Gruumsh who see him as some kind of Chosen King both through his acts and his incredible leadership.
Masakado 10-29-03, 10:19 AM	Originally posted by Celtavian This is comparing apples and oranges. You think these two villains are in any way similar to Obould Many-arrows? Your litmus test of proper villainy was that the villain should match up to the hero & be able to physically challenge the hero. Luthor obviously cannot match Superman in physical ability, yet he is Superman's most formidable foil. Cardinal Richilieu cannot match D'artangian in swordplay, yet he is D'artangian's most dangerous foe in Dumas's novels. For Obould to pass your exam he'd have to be as powerful as his most powerful regional enemy, which would probably be Alustriel, one of Mystra's chosen. Not exactly realistic criteria. Originally posted by Celtavian Remember, the established world also has alot of to do with villain design. FR has certain established parameters on magic and power. Yet toads like Pasha Pook are, at one time or another, able to command the services of an Artemis Entreri because their gold does the talking, not their class levels... :rolleyes: For all of Artemis's personal formidability, at heart, he is little more than a hired thug. Certainly not a king, like Obould is. Originally posted by Celtavian Not to mention the stories with Lex Luthor and Cardinal Richilieu were entirely different. The stories are incidental, as it is your criteria that is the issue. Luthor, Richelieu & Obould in no way, shape, or form, are able to match their respective enemies strength for strength, yet for you to properly suspend your disbelief, they must be able to do so. Do you stand by your seemingly, blanket criteria, or is it case by case? Originally posted by Celtavian You give no reason why the leaders of the Silver Marches haven't annihilated this guy. That would be your job as it is your claim that Obould is a pushover. If Obould is so inferior, why is he still around? Answer please? Originally posted by Celtavian That's the kind of orc king I want to see. He should have some bad ass Orc or half-orc wizard or sorcerer working for him as well as a higher level cleric and a serious contingent of slaverishly loyal priests of Gruumsh who see him as some kind of Chosen King both through his acts and his incredible leadership. You claim not to focus too much on stats, yet insist that Obould needs to be some 20th level terror in order to be a believeable villain. Some of the most powerful entities on Faerun are 20th level, so level packing is pretty silly. Also, take a peek at your description of your "ideal" Obould and note some things: 1) Gruumsh is the chief of the Orcish pantheon. Since when would it be realistic for his chief clerics to "slaver?" If anything, they'd be just as large a power block as the chieftain's retinue, especially since the priests are spellcasters & act as the earthy representation of the Orcish gods. 2) Obould does have a respectable spellcasting advisor in Black Lorog. Obould's wife is also an assassin, & one of his most loyal, chief warriors, IIRC, is a tanarukk. How do you draw companionship like that without personal stroke? I respect the fact that you feel that Obould must be some mythical figure in order to be believable: that's your rightful opinion. I find Obould to be interesting because he's still solidly in charge of his own, despite the enemies within his camp, as well as very powerful enemies outside of it.
Crust 10-29-03, 11:01 AM	This is an interesting arguement. I'm pretty happy by and large with Obould. He's an orc, for crying out loud. He's not allowed to be compared to Azoun, or Yamun Kahan, or the arch wizards of Shade, or the trio of nycaloths. Obould is not going to have Aurthurian-level skills, weapons, and stats because he's a dirty demihuman whose training consists of hacking down the enemy with a bigger sword. He's not going to be trained by veteran knights and schooled by arch wizards like the future monarch of a gods-fearing nation of largely lawful good citizens who want to better themselves and the country, by and large. Orcs are just above the level of animals, and Obould's 9 levels certainly put him at the top of the orc food chain. Also, I don't really see Obould as the full-on leader of these orcs. Gerti's role seems to be much larger. She's the brains, it seems. I'm really excited to see how the Silver Marches handles Obould. I'm anxious to see how his end comes about (or if he is ever killed at all). I'm anxious to see the leaders come to blows. Certainly Breunor and Emerus will get up to their beards in blood, of that I have no doubt. I doubt Alustriel will ever roll initiative against the orc horde. I also doubt Taern will. Though, with RAS at the helm, I could see him having Alustriel cast a handful of fireballs at the orc horde, or summon a few elementals or a planar ally to aid the good army. If Greenwood were doing this, I bet he'd have Alustriel link up with a few other Chosen to craft some horrid spell wheel that disintegrates scores of orcs, or put some other interesting spellcrafting idea to work. I'm excited about Obould's future. Sure, he's lame compared to the other horrors of the Realms, but it'll be funny to see how he comes to his end. I bet one of his own orcs kills him with a careless backswing.
Masakado 10-29-03, 11:31 AM	Originally posted by Crust Also, I don't really see Obould as the full-on leader of these orcs. Gerti's role seems to be much larger. She's the brains, it seems. I was going to mention this, but didn't get around to it. My thanks for mentioning it. And I totally agree with your sentiments. IMO, Obould's orcs are only part of what is shaping up to be a unified threat, which puts the situation in a completely different light. It's not a simple "us vs. the orcs" issue.
Nightdruid 10-29-03, 11:40 AM	Have to say I agree that Obould's level is just fine. He doesn't even command all that many orcs any more; most of his tribe perished 5 years ago. He commands at best a moderate-sized tribe, one of scores of tribes in the North. He doesn't rate as high as Azoun because he doesn't rule a nation; he's more like the lord of a fief ;)
Mirtek 10-30-03, 06:43 AM	Originally posted by loki87 Obould is as powerful as anyone in the Realms, because he has the means to rally tens or even hundreds of thousands of orcs to fight for him. Only that (judging by CR), Alustriel alone is the equal to app. 16,000 orcs (ordinary 1st level warrior orcs) And she could certainly destroy even more than twice this number, while invisible flying over the battlefields and throwing meteor swarms, chain lightnings, and so on at will
Mirtek 10-30-03, 06:49 AM	Originally posted by Masakado Your litmus test of proper villainy was that the villain should match up to the hero & be able to physically challenge the hero. Luthor obviously cannot match Superman in physical ability, yet he is Superman's most formidable foil. Cardinal Richilieu cannot match D'artangian in swordplay, yet he is D'artangian's most dangerous foe in Dumas's novels. For Obould to pass your exam he'd have to be as powerful as his most powerful regional enemy, which would probably be Alustriel, one of Mystra's chosen. The thing is: Superman doesn't just slay Luthor because it is to good and righteous to do so. D'artangian doesn't just slay Cardinal Richilieu because Richilieu's guard is something that could stop him and even if he would kill Richilieu, he would end up in prison forever for murder. But there's nothing that prevents Alustriel from just visiting his keep, killing Obould along with any ten thousands orcs which happen to be around as well, destroying his castle and teleport back to drink a cup of tea with Elminster. IMO the reason isn't that Obould is too weak, a 9th char should be an awesome, legendary person, the problem with the FR is that all these 9th level guys pale compared to all the epic level guys you find behind each stone you turn And even is 100,000 orcs come from the mountains to avenge this murder, she and 2-3 other wizards would be enough to crush such a horde, without even needing to send out an army.
Masakado 10-30-03, 08:25 AM	Originally posted by Mirtek The thing is: Superman doesn't just slay Luthor because it is to good and righteous to do so. D'artangian doesn't just slay Cardinal Richilieu because Richilieu's guard is something that could stop him and even if he would kill Richilieu, he would end up in prison forever for murder. But there's nothing that prevents Alustriel from just visiting his keep, killing Obould along with any ten thousands orcs which happen to be around as well, destroying his castle and teleport back to drink a cup of tea with Elminster. All of this is incidental, Mirtek, & is overanalysis. The simple litmus test was that the villain should be able to physically match up with his rival in order for belief to properly be suspended, & the examples clearly show that this is not a necessity. Luthor, Richelieu & Obould are beliveable villains, even though they do not match up to their more powerful rivals. However, if overanalysis is the order of the day, then the question that I posed to Celt, I pose to you. If there is nothing to prevent Alustriel from simply porting in, handing out GBH with Silver Fire, & then porting out.... ....then why hasn't she done it yet?
Kalex the Omen 10-30-03, 08:30 AM	Originally posted by Knightcrawler I'm thinking that we the Players Guide comes out that there will be an update to Obould. They'll most likely add a couple of levels of the Orc Warlord PrC from races of Faerun. It seems custom made just for him. What would make you think that? Rich Baker has stated that the PGtF is for Players, and has no DM only information in it. I'd expect absolutely no NPC write-ups in it at all. The world according to Kalex the Omen
Mirtek 10-30-03, 09:06 AM	Originally posted by Masakado If there is nothing to prevent Alustriel from simply porting in, handing out GBH with Silver Fire, & then porting out.... ....then why hasn't she done it yet? Because: It would ruin the authors plot, plain and simple. The fact that the plot is completly unrealistic (even in a fantasy point of view), because Alustriel could hust do exactly that at any time, is just ignored. No one cares how many rules are broken/ignored as long as the end result is a novel which sells good. This isn't the first time such things have been done and certainly not the last time. As long as D&D novels are written, their authors won't care about how all these storylines would work within the D&D rules. Just take the "silly" (from a rules point of view) god war in Evermeet: Surely, a gravely wounded Corellon, barely managing to stand stumbling the long way toward his home makes a great dramatic chapter in a novel. On the other hand a Corellon needing but a single thought to heal all his wounds and teleport home in a mere second is much more boring. But according to the rules he has the power to do that and thus i was asking me why he didn't he just do this the whole time i was reading this part of the book.
Masakado 10-30-03, 09:35 AM	Originally posted by Mirtek Because: It would ruin the authors plot, plain and simple. Precisely, just as Superman's murder of Luthor, or D'artangian's slaying of Richelieu would disrupt the plots of their respected works. The "circuit breakers" to prevent plot sabotage (The Man of Steel's flawless morality, Richelieu's influence & real-life historical significance) are already built in. Hoping that D'artangian will completely foil Richelieu's plans is akin to thinking that the Jackal has a snowball's chance in the hot place of succeeding in his assassination attempt of Charles De Gaulle. :cool: It's also hard to picture the legendary "Gentle Lady of Silverymoon" engaging in the wanton slaughter of an orc tribe (a deed more suited to The Simbul), but there's nothing about her CG alignment that suggests that she wouldn't get her hands dirty if the situation merited it. I'd like to think that's not in Alustriel's character, but such conjecture is merely my own opinion about her personality. But the fact remains that she hasn't yet. The fact also remains that a litmus test that requires every single villain to be able to physically match up to their rivals is trivial, as villains have other means at their disposal to give heroes grief other than pure, personal physical or magical ability.
Nightdruid 10-30-03, 10:09 AM	Originally posted by Masakado If there is nothing to prevent Alustriel from simply porting in, handing out GBH with Silver Fire, & then porting out.... ....then why hasn't she done it yet? Probably because she isn't a cold-blooded, murdering assassin...:smirk:
Masakado 10-30-03, 10:12 AM	Originally posted by Nightdruid Probably because she isn't a cold-blooded, murdering assassin...:smirk: Finally, someone that interprets Alustriel the same way I do. :D
Nightdruid 10-30-03, 10:26 AM	Originally posted by Masakado Finally, someone that interprets Alustriel the same way I do. :D :D I just don't see her as a hit-man. She's not a 'dark hero' who goes out and slaughters foes because they *might* be a threat; that'd be a last resort, when the orcs are at the gates. The idea of teleporting into the lair of the orc chief and taking him out with a volley of fireballs sounds more like the act of a mobster than the gentle ruler of a fledling nation :smirk: At least that's how I see her ;)
Crust 10-30-03, 11:44 AM	Personally, I'd rather see Drizzt waste Obould. I really hope he cuts his way through Obould's stronghold, wading casually through orc guards, all the while his cold eyes centered on Obould as the orc ignites his sword and starts to sweat. The one-on-one battle would only last a few moments. Of course, that probably won't be what happens at all.
Celtavian 10-31-03, 02:47 AM	Originally posted by Masakado Your litmus test of proper villainy was that the villain should match up to the hero & be able to physically challenge the hero. Actually that is not "my litmus test". The villain should be able to hold their own and inspire confidence that they can do so. Let me list my expectations: 1. Obould should be at least an equal warrior to the majority of dwarf and human kings that rule the Silver Marches in fighting ability. He should be able to crush a Fire or Frost giant or two in single combat. He should also be able to kill in single combat almost any summoned creature (barring possibly gated in very powerful outsiders) the good guys could throw at him with minimal aid. 2. He should have advisers powerful enough to protect him from the magical threat posed by the many powerful clerics, magi and druids that wander the Silver Marches. That means having a nice contingent of Orc Priests and possibly a few mercernary wizards or sorcerers. If an Orc king is going to be the threat that Obould is supposed to pose, then design the main and support villains capable of handling the reaction to their attack. This is the FR, sheer numbers do not equate into power with wizards like Alustriel in charge who can call upon additional wizards so potent the hope of victory is slim. Right now this guy doesn't pose a threat to the Silver Marches IMO. He is just annoying. Luthor obviously cannot match Superman in physical ability, yet he is Superman's most formidable foil. They gave him super intelligence and access to a vast array of resources to be Superman's foil. They also gave Superman a weakness that Luthor could exploit, in fact a few. His physical weakness is kryptonite. His mental weaknesses (not really a weakness, but an exploitable character trait) is his compassion for humanity and his unwillingness to kill (Superman could have ended this along time ago by killing Luthor, but he won't.). No one in the Silver Marches has these same weaknesses. They would kill Obould as soon as look at him if they could get their hands on him. Cardinal Richilieu cannot match D'artangian in swordplay, yet he is D'artangian's most dangerous foe in Dumas's novels. Did he attack D'artangian with a sword? No. He didn't. Is Obould going to lead his army to attack the Silver Marches. Yes, he is. If D'artangian could have killed the Cardinal without severe repercussions would he have? I say he would have. There are no repercussions for killing Obould. He is an open threat that gives cohesioin to normally adversarial orc tribes. Why not kill himg? Given the way he is made, it wouldn't be much of a problem to do. For Obould to pass your exam he'd have to be as powerful as his most powerful regional enemy, which would probably be Alustriel, one of Mystra's chosen. Not exactly realistic criteria. Your words not mine. I undersand there are a variety of ways to construct a villain to make him formidable without having to make him exactly the same. Equal in power does not mean the same. It means equal to the threat he is dealing with. I say a level 20 Orc fighter with several powerful advisors is a good believable threat. He may not be able to match Alustriel in magical combat, but he should certainly be able to stand up to the other fighters in the area and not be taken care by a summoning spell or a group of mid-level assassins. Yet toads like Pasha Pook are, at one time or another, able to command the services of an Artemis Entreri because their gold does the talking, not their class levels... :rolleyes: For all of Artemis's personal formidability, at heart, he is little more than a hired thug. Certainly not a king, like Obould is. The Pasha did not earn his power like Obould. He was given it. You are really bringing up poor examples. This is an orc king who rose through battle. He is more akin to Genghis Kahn than some rich Pasha handed his title because of social convention. You are using examples that have no place in orc culture or the rough culture of the Silver Marches. I would not even be debating you right now if this were Calimshan. You are not taking into account the environment of the Silver Marches. A place where powerful barbarian tribes rove, dwarves ready for battle reside in their halls building troves of weapons for the day when an orc horde tries to sweep them, human kingdoms of battle-hardened men are everready for an invasion, a city ruled by a powerful Chosen of Mystra with a few 100 reasonably high level wizards at her command. This is the Silver Marches, not some civilized place where some level 9 ragtag orc king can play games of political intrigue. The stories are incidental, as it is your criteria that is the issue. Luthor, Richelieu & Obould in no way, shape, or form, are able to match their respective enemies strength for strength, yet for you to properly suspend your disbelief, they must be able to do so. Do you stand by your seemingly, blanket criteria, or is it case by case? It was never my blanket criteria. I will once again reiterate that when I say equal, I don't mean the same. That would be your job as it is your claim that Obould is a pushover. If Obould is so inferior, why is he still around? Answer please? That is kind of my whole point. I don't know why he is still around. I can't personaly think of one good reason why this level 9 Orc King is still around if he poses such a threat to the Silver Marches. Why do you think my suspension of disbelief is ruined? The only reason I keep thinking of is that the author wants him around. There are no game reasons. He isn't strong enough by himself to pose a major threat. As I stated earlier, the Silver Marches has already proven they can repel an invasion force from Menzoberanzzan. Why are some orcs scaring them? I can't figure it out. You claim not to focus too much on stats, yet insist that Obould needs to be some 20th level terror in order to be a believeable villain. Some of the most powerful entities on Faerun are 20th level, so level packing is pretty silly. Also, take a peek at your description of your "ideal" Obould and note some things: 1) Gruumsh is the chief of the Orcish pantheon. Since when would it be realistic for his chief clerics to "slaver?" If anything, they'd be just as large a power block as the chieftain's retinue, especially since the priests are spellcasters & act as the earthy representation of the Orcish gods. 2) Obould does have a respectable spellcasting advisor in Black Lorog. Obould's wife is also an assassin, & one of his most loyal, chief warriors, IIRC, is a tanarukk. How do you draw companionship like that without personal stroke? I respect the fact that you feel that Obould must be some mythical figure in order to be believable: that's your rightful opinion. I find Obould to be interesting because he's still solidly in charge of his own, despite the enemies within his camp, as well as very powerful enemies outside of it. That's your opinion and your welcome to it. I think he should be substantially higher level. I also think he should have quite a few levels of Orc Warlord. You want to threaten the Silver Marches, you better bring the power to do so. The Silver Marches aren't like other areas of Faerun. It isn't a civilized place of people unused to danger. These are battle-hardened folk who will fight to the last if they are threatened. If Obould is that serious a threat, he needs to be one tough son of a *****.
Celtavian 10-31-03, 02:59 AM	Originally posted by Crust This is an interesting arguement. I'm pretty happy by and large with Obould. He's an orc, for crying out loud. He's not allowed to be compared to Azoun, or Yamun Kahan, or the arch wizards of Shade, or the trio of nycaloths. Obould is not going to have Aurthurian-level skills, weapons, and stats because he's a dirty demihuman whose training consists of hacking down the enemy with a bigger sword. He's not going to be trained by veteran knights and schooled by arch wizards like the future monarch of a gods-fearing nation of largely lawful good citizens who want to better themselves and the country, by and large. Orcs are just above the level of animals, and Obould's 9 levels certainly put him at the top of the orc food chain. Also, I don't really see Obould as the full-on leader of these orcs. Gerti's role seems to be much larger. She's the brains, it seems. I'm really excited to see how the Silver Marches handles Obould. I'm anxious to see how his end comes about (or if he is ever killed at all). I'm anxious to see the leaders come to blows. Certainly Breunor and Emerus will get up to their beards in blood, of that I have no doubt. I doubt Alustriel will ever roll initiative against the orc horde. I also doubt Taern will. Though, with RAS at the helm, I could see him having Alustriel cast a handful of fireballs at the orc horde, or summon a few elementals or a planar ally to aid the good army. If Greenwood were doing this, I bet he'd have Alustriel link up with a few other Chosen to craft some horrid spell wheel that disintegrates scores of orcs, or put some other interesting spellcrafting idea to work. I'm excited about Obould's future. Sure, he's lame compared to the other horrors of the Realms, but it'll be funny to see how he comes to his end. I bet one of his own orcs kills him with a careless backswing. If that turns out to be the case, then it will another standard horde of "been there, done that" orcs. I was personally hoping for a serious take on an orc king equivalent to Yamun Khahan. An orc with a destiny capable of threatening the Silver Marches on his own with a group of powerful advisers. Oh well. If Obould is just some pawn in a bigger game, then his level is fine. I was kind of hoping Obould would be the major player, since orcs are always used as pawns.
Masakado 10-31-03, 10:00 AM	Originally posted by Celtavian The Pasha did not earn his power like Obould. He was given it. What does the way Pasha Pook got his power have to do with what we were discussing? That being villain design & the illusion of "equality of threat vs. hero"? Refresher: Celtavian said: Remember, the established world also has alot of to do with villain design. FR has certain established parameters on magic and power. Masakado said: Yet toads like Pasha Pook are, at one time or another, able to command the services of an Artemis Entreri because their gold does the talking, not their class levels... Originally posted by Celtavian There are no repercussions for killing Obould. I would say that if the orcs decided to burn down villages & towns like Deadsnows to the ground in retaliation for Obould's death, there would be significant reprocussions, eh? Again, I don't see the need for Obould to be a 20th level half-fiendish orc o' doom in order to be believable. If anything, given that orcs are a notoriously short-lived race, a 20th level orc would be rather unbelievable, especially one that solos giants. I'm also not convinced that it would take an abnormally large amount of power to compromise the Silver Marches, as the March Compact is a fragile alliance at best, and close to breaking at worst. Not only is their unity in question, but so is their response time in the face of a serious threat. Also, I think Obould is smart enough to realize that he won't make any significant inroads on his own, but fortunately enough for him, there are several tribes of hobgoblins & other meanies to negotiate with in order to bolster his forces. What worked on Arabel might work on someplace like Citadel Adbar: overwhelm disciplined armies with sheer numbers. All debate aside, I do agree with many of your sentiments. I would like to see Obould take the forefront in matters concerning the Silver Marches, but I don't see it happening at his current troop strength, nor his personal prowess level. His tribe is, most likely, being manipulated by Gerti into serving as her shock troops while the giants reap the true spoils. As you've eloquently stated, "That's been done before."
Mirtek 10-31-03, 10:38 AM	Originally posted by Masakado I would say that if the orcs decided to burn down villages & towns like Deadsnows to the ground in retaliation for Obould's death, there would be significant reprocussions, eh? Only that the orcs would never be able to burn down a village as long as their are NPCs like Alustriel who can easily slay 16,000 orcs on their own.
Masakado 10-31-03, 10:41 AM	Originally posted by Mirtek Only that the orcs would never be able to burn down a village as long as their are NPCs like Alustriel who can easily slay 16,000 orcs on their own. Which NPC's are these & where will they be coming from? Having the ability to slay 16,000 orcs isn't the same as having the opportunity to slay 16,000 orcs. The calvary doesn't arrive in the nick of time on every occasion, now does it? Sometimes it doesn't arrive at all. *remembers that there is a good movie about the Alamo coming out pretty soon.*
cwslyclgh 10-31-03, 02:29 PM	Only that the orcs would never be able to burn down a village as long as their are NPCs like Alustriel who can easily slay 16,000 orcs on their own. like they arrived to save that village that the companions of the hall were in during the thousand orcs.... it is highly unlikly that Alustriel or anybody else of power would even know that dead snows had been destroyed until several days if not weeks after the occurance.
Derulbaskul 10-31-03, 09:00 PM	Originally posted by TomCosta (snip) And as has already been stated by Mirtek, orcs and their gods were always LE (except for the orc god of thieves IIRC, who was always NE) going all the way back to 1E and through 2E. This is part of the reason they were based on the LE/LN plane of Acheron in previous editions (though they were briefly placed in the Hells). Nope. Originally, well, "old blue book" originally, orcs were CE and, IMO, that's what they should be. Also, and this is also IMO, Acheron was a really, really silly choice as the home plane. Acheron is Lawful Lawful Evil (ie, more Lawful than Evil) and orcs were always more Evil than Lawful. Anyway, I think 3E got the orc racial alignment correct. Anyway, I am glad FR3E got rid of the Great Wheel. Too many of the deities were given, IMO, the wrong planes, not just the orcs. Look at Bane: he was more Evil than Lawful but he got shunted off to Acheron as well rather than Baator or Gehenna where, IMO, he belonged. Selune was sent to Ysgard, for Chaotic Chaotic Good, whereas she is defitely more Good than Chaotic. OK, all IMO only, but I like the new cosmography because it takes care of these anomalies. Cheers D
Celtavian 11-01-03, 01:14 AM	I'm not going to spoil The Lone Drow for anyone. I finished reading some spoilers on the book that tell about Obould's activities. I guess Obould isn't really facing the entire Silver Marches so much as a particular section. Between 3 and 6 more levels is about all he needs to be formidable for what he is facing, at least that is what I think.
Alratan 11-01-03, 05:29 PM	The real question with Obould is not how such a low level orc king avoids being nuked by Alusteriel, it's why she dosen't teleport in, extended dominate him, and have him run his horde into the ground. Indeed, that question always puzzles me, in general, high level good mages could shatter humanoid structures because any leadership could always be turned against them , and the humanoids don't have the Court Wizard equivilents to stop them
Celtavian 11-02-03, 02:28 AM	Originally posted by Alratan The real question with Obould is not how such a low level orc king avoids being nuked by Alusteriel, it's why she dosen't teleport in, extended dominate him, and have him run his horde into the ground. Indeed, that question always puzzles me, in general, high level good mages could shatter humanoid structures because any leadership could always be turned against them , and the humanoids don't have the Court Wizard equivilents to stop them High level wizards are omniscient. Any humanoid tribe would have to be considered a major threat to get the notice of powerful good wizards. Obould seems to have done just that and is probably on the radar of several good wizards.