Coinage [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Coinage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Majorafire77
11-15-05, 08:57 PM I have a few questions about coinage and currency in FR, as it seems to have changed from earlier editions and even in its current form seems a bit strange.

The old Forgotten Realms Campaign Set (available in PDF form from a couple of different places) has "electrum pieces" as well as a different money system than that of 3.x FR. Would I be right in assuming that those pieces aren't used anymore and noone really pays attention to them? Is there anyone who plays FR 3.x who uses the system presented in the set?

In the 3e FRCS, it mentions shaved coins. Shaved coins can be made out of any coin material and are worth an amount based on how much has been shaved off, correct? What about shaved versions of strange currency. Are there shaved iron steelpence, Shaar rings, and Gond Bells? Does the same go for pearls used as currency?

Another thing that confuses me about the money in FR is how it is worth different amounts in different areas? How does that work? How could a Gond bell be worth 20 gp when donating it to a temple to the deity but only be worth 10 gp anywhere else? What about pearls? I can get a green tayar for 1 gp under the sea and sell it for 20 on shore, then go back and buy 20 more until the supply runs out? How does this not **** with the economy of Faerun?
Ocrus of Wessek
11-15-05, 10:14 PM I have a few questions about coinage and currency in FR, as it seems to have changed from earlier editions and even in its current form seems a bit strange.

The old Forgotten Realms Campaign Set (available in PDF form from a couple of different places) has "electrum pieces" as well as a different money system than that of 3.x FR. Would I be right in assuming that those pieces aren't used anymore and noone really pays attention to them? Is there anyone who plays FR 3.x who uses the system presented in the set?

In the 3e FRCS, it mentions shaved coins. Shaved coins can be made out of any coin material and are worth an amount based on how much has been shaved off, correct? What about shaved versions of strange currency. Are there shaved iron steelpence, Shaar rings, and Gond Bells? Does the same go for pearls used as currency?

Another thing that confuses me about the money in FR is how it is worth different amounts in different areas? How does that work? How could a Gond bell be worth 20 gp when donating it to a temple to the deity but only be worth 10 gp anywhere else? What about pearls? I can get a green tayar for 1 gp under the sea and sell it for 20 on shore, then go back and buy 20 more until the supply runs out? How does this not **** with the economy of Faerun?
1.) If it's not detailed in the 3rd edition coinage rules then i guess it's not used. however monetary systems and type of coinage don't affect overall gameplay, so if your DM or you wants to use the original rules then use them.

2.) Grating a diamond into diamond dust doesn't decrease the value, so it shouldn't for other forms of currency, though why you would want to use steel shavings as a for of currency eludes me. if you're paying with shaved currency the value becomes based on weight rather than amount possesed.

3.) Basically Ed modeled FR's ecomony on a real world version. it's based on one thing, supply and demand, lets look at the example you provided. As you buy more and more green tayers selling them for huge profits on the mainland, you will provide a greater supply for people living on land, while at the same time you will deplete the supply in the ocean, thus you will lower the prices on land, and raise them at sea.
In general this doesn't effect the economy because adventuring parties don't waste their time buying and selling commodoties.
That kind of thing happens on the currency exchange all the time in RW anyway, people see a currency, and based on research buy huge amounts of it while it is valued at less than an american dollar for instance, then when the value increases by a significant amount they sell for large profits.

one last time it works in the real world, so even if your party did decide to become venture capitalists the system would still work.
i hope that clears things up, although you may still have questions.
Tobus Neth
11-15-05, 10:36 PM [QUOTE
one last time it works in the real world, so even if your party did decide to become venture capitalists the system would still work.
i hope that clears things up, although you may still have questions.[/QUOTE]

You nailed that.
dragonheart
11-16-05, 07:48 AM In the real world up until the middle of the 20th century major coins (ie dollars or their equivalent) were valued based on the amount of precious metal they contained. Shaving coins was a way to cheat on that value by reducing the amount of metal in fact while having the coin appear to be full size/value so you could then use the shaved gold as extra money. It is enough of a problem (or was) that us and much of the world's coinage still has a ribbed edge today to make any shaving obvious. WHat really tended to happen in the ancient world was that folks used their local coins at face value unless the shaving got too obvious but any foreign coins were treated as bullion of uncertainpurity and weighed and tested for purity then converted to value as pure gold/silver. THis is where the "bite" test for coins came from - only a nearly pure gold coin was soft enough for you to bite it and leave a tooth mark or bend it slightly. Other tools used were "touchstones" where the coin was rubbed against the stone leaving a streak - the color changed as the gold purity decreases. A final test would be an actual density test - measure the weight and volume (displaced water) then calculate the density and from that the amount of gold/platinum/silver.

As for the pearl trade and gemstone "shaving" you have to remember to figure in the costs of going down to the sea floor and getting those pearls then returning - they may be cheap and easy to find down there but their surface cost is based on surface rarity and the costs of recovery. If your a half aquatic elf or water genasai and can both breath on the surface and underwater then yes you probably could make a nice living buy buying low and selling high while living on the difference. Gems are a similar story - they are not that valuable in the rough state in areas where they are common and grow in value as they get rarer. However the idea that a 10,000 GP diamond is still worth 10,000 GP when powdered is hogwash - it might be worth only 1000 GP or maybe even less (as little as 100 GP). THe value is based on natural rareity - and big stones are NOT common. you can make that same pile of diamond dust from a lot of small low quality diamonds as easily as you can from one huge super quality gem so the dust's value is much less. Never but never crush large stones unless it is absolutely essential for some spell.

All of this obviously needs to be adapted somewhat to D&D and the FRs but even things like the usage of electrum are really upto the DM - according to some of the stuff from the source books and Ed Greenwood's published notes coinage is (as it was in the real world) ahighly variable and local thing so any rules you want to use for a region are good.
Kuje31
11-16-05, 11:56 AM Electrum coins still exist. I mean really, the mines just didn't dry up over night. :)

I still use electrum myself.

As for your money changing question, yes some nations devalue the coins from other nations and some don't. There's no hard and fast rule and it varies from nation to nation or city to city.
Alac Luin
11-16-05, 12:50 PM I'll try my hand at these
The old Forgotten Realms Campaign Set (available in PDF form from a couple of different places) has "electrum pieces" as well as a different money system than that of 3.x FR. Would I be right in assuming that those pieces aren't used anymore and noone really pays attention to them? Is there anyone who plays FR 3.x who uses the system presented in the set?
Electrum peices was a core d&d thing back then.
3.0 "got rid" of the electrum peices.
To be honest, I ignored electum peices back in 2ed. They added more work then they were worth. This is only my oppinion, and the few others I gamed with.

In the 3e FRCS, it mentions shaved coins. Shaved coins can be made out of any coin material and are worth an amount based on how much has been shaved off, correct? What about shaved versions of strange currency. Are there shaved iron steelpence, Shaar rings, and Gond Bells? Does the same go for pearls used as currency?
Shaveing a coin is for the truely deperate.
Shave a Gond bell, you will most likely remove all value from the item, you have just removed metal from the item, changing the tone of the bell, for what? A few brass fileings?
Shave a pearl, same thing, you have just removed the natural shean of the pearl, for pearl dust.
Another thing that confuses me about the money in FR is how it is worth different amounts in different areas? How does that work? How could a Gond bell be worth 20 gp when donating it to a temple to the deity but only be worth 10 gp anywhere else? What about pearls? I can get a green tayar for 1 gp under the sea and sell it for 20 on shore, then go back and buy 20 more until the supply runs out? How does this not **** with the economy of Faerun?
The gond bell is worth more to gond worshipers.
In real world terms, a brass cross will be worth more to a christan then say a jewish person.
The cross has more meaning to the christain.
To get the full 20 gp value, you will need to get far away from the shore.
Go to the seaside, stop in any of the torist shops and look at the price of the shells.
Now travel to Minisota or Arizona, to find a similar shell you may have to track down an art store or a similar specialty shop, look at the price of the shell.
EDIT: No offence is intended, I am assumeing US resedence here.
Old Sage
11-16-05, 07:49 PM Electrum coins still exist. I mean really, the mines just didn't dry up over night. :)And let us not forget the Muaraghal in Halruaa. It is considered to be the site of some of the purest electrum deposits that can be found in the Realms. We know the Halruaans have been mining near and around Lake Maeru for many hundreds of years.

Both Shining South tomes note that this particular electrum vein shows no sign of running out for quite some time.
Ocrus of Wessek
11-16-05, 07:58 PM However the idea that a 10,000 GP diamond is still worth 10,000 GP when powdered is hogwash - it might be worth only 1000 GP or maybe even less (as little as 100 GP). THe value is based on natural rareity - and big stones are NOT common. you can make that same pile of diamond dust from a lot of small low quality diamonds as easily as you can from one huge super quality gem so the dust's value is much less. Never but never crush large stones unless it is absolutely essential for some spell.

I was operating under the assumption that the only reason anyone would be stupid enough to crush up a diamond would be for a spell. in that case it would still be worth the same amount. For instance if a spell reqiures let us sat 500gp worth of diamond dust, then crushing up a single 500 gp will yield the same result as say crushing up 5 100 gp diamonds.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Majorafire77 11-15-05, 08:57 PM	I have a few questions about coinage and currency in FR, as it seems to have changed from earlier editions and even in its current form seems a bit strange. The old Forgotten Realms Campaign Set (available in PDF form from a couple of different places) has "electrum pieces" as well as a different money system than that of 3.x FR. Would I be right in assuming that those pieces aren't used anymore and noone really pays attention to them? Is there anyone who plays FR 3.x who uses the system presented in the set? In the 3e FRCS, it mentions shaved coins. Shaved coins can be made out of any coin material and are worth an amount based on how much has been shaved off, correct? What about shaved versions of strange currency. Are there shaved iron steelpence, Shaar rings, and Gond Bells? Does the same go for pearls used as currency? Another thing that confuses me about the money in FR is how it is worth different amounts in different areas? How does that work? How could a Gond bell be worth 20 gp when donating it to a temple to the deity but only be worth 10 gp anywhere else? What about pearls? I can get a green tayar for 1 gp under the sea and sell it for 20 on shore, then go back and buy 20 more until the supply runs out? How does this not **** with the economy of Faerun?
Ocrus of Wessek 11-15-05, 10:14 PM	I have a few questions about coinage and currency in FR, as it seems to have changed from earlier editions and even in its current form seems a bit strange. The old Forgotten Realms Campaign Set (available in PDF form from a couple of different places) has "electrum pieces" as well as a different money system than that of 3.x FR. Would I be right in assuming that those pieces aren't used anymore and noone really pays attention to them? Is there anyone who plays FR 3.x who uses the system presented in the set? In the 3e FRCS, it mentions shaved coins. Shaved coins can be made out of any coin material and are worth an amount based on how much has been shaved off, correct? What about shaved versions of strange currency. Are there shaved iron steelpence, Shaar rings, and Gond Bells? Does the same go for pearls used as currency? Another thing that confuses me about the money in FR is how it is worth different amounts in different areas? How does that work? How could a Gond bell be worth 20 gp when donating it to a temple to the deity but only be worth 10 gp anywhere else? What about pearls? I can get a green tayar for 1 gp under the sea and sell it for 20 on shore, then go back and buy 20 more until the supply runs out? How does this not **** with the economy of Faerun? 1.) If it's not detailed in the 3rd edition coinage rules then i guess it's not used. however monetary systems and type of coinage don't affect overall gameplay, so if your DM or you wants to use the original rules then use them. 2.) Grating a diamond into diamond dust doesn't decrease the value, so it shouldn't for other forms of currency, though why you would want to use steel shavings as a for of currency eludes me. if you're paying with shaved currency the value becomes based on weight rather than amount possesed. 3.) Basically Ed modeled FR's ecomony on a real world version. it's based on one thing, supply and demand, lets look at the example you provided. As you buy more and more green tayers selling them for huge profits on the mainland, you will provide a greater supply for people living on land, while at the same time you will deplete the supply in the ocean, thus you will lower the prices on land, and raise them at sea. In general this doesn't effect the economy because adventuring parties don't waste their time buying and selling commodoties. That kind of thing happens on the currency exchange all the time in RW anyway, people see a currency, and based on research buy huge amounts of it while it is valued at less than an american dollar for instance, then when the value increases by a significant amount they sell for large profits. one last time it works in the real world, so even if your party did decide to become venture capitalists the system would still work. i hope that clears things up, although you may still have questions.
Tobus Neth 11-15-05, 10:36 PM	[QUOTE one last time it works in the real world, so even if your party did decide to become venture capitalists the system would still work. i hope that clears things up, although you may still have questions.[/QUOTE] You nailed that.
dragonheart 11-16-05, 07:48 AM	In the real world up until the middle of the 20th century major coins (ie dollars or their equivalent) were valued based on the amount of precious metal they contained. Shaving coins was a way to cheat on that value by reducing the amount of metal in fact while having the coin appear to be full size/value so you could then use the shaved gold as extra money. It is enough of a problem (or was) that us and much of the world's coinage still has a ribbed edge today to make any shaving obvious. WHat really tended to happen in the ancient world was that folks used their local coins at face value unless the shaving got too obvious but any foreign coins were treated as bullion of uncertainpurity and weighed and tested for purity then converted to value as pure gold/silver. THis is where the "bite" test for coins came from - only a nearly pure gold coin was soft enough for you to bite it and leave a tooth mark or bend it slightly. Other tools used were "touchstones" where the coin was rubbed against the stone leaving a streak - the color changed as the gold purity decreases. A final test would be an actual density test - measure the weight and volume (displaced water) then calculate the density and from that the amount of gold/platinum/silver. As for the pearl trade and gemstone "shaving" you have to remember to figure in the costs of going down to the sea floor and getting those pearls then returning - they may be cheap and easy to find down there but their surface cost is based on surface rarity and the costs of recovery. If your a half aquatic elf or water genasai and can both breath on the surface and underwater then yes you probably could make a nice living buy buying low and selling high while living on the difference. Gems are a similar story - they are not that valuable in the rough state in areas where they are common and grow in value as they get rarer. However the idea that a 10,000 GP diamond is still worth 10,000 GP when powdered is hogwash - it might be worth only 1000 GP or maybe even less (as little as 100 GP). THe value is based on natural rareity - and big stones are NOT common. you can make that same pile of diamond dust from a lot of small low quality diamonds as easily as you can from one huge super quality gem so the dust's value is much less. Never but never crush large stones unless it is absolutely essential for some spell. All of this obviously needs to be adapted somewhat to D&D and the FRs but even things like the usage of electrum are really upto the DM - according to some of the stuff from the source books and Ed Greenwood's published notes coinage is (as it was in the real world) ahighly variable and local thing so any rules you want to use for a region are good.
Kuje31 11-16-05, 11:56 AM	Electrum coins still exist. I mean really, the mines just didn't dry up over night. :) I still use electrum myself. As for your money changing question, yes some nations devalue the coins from other nations and some don't. There's no hard and fast rule and it varies from nation to nation or city to city.
Alac Luin 11-16-05, 12:50 PM	I'll try my hand at these The old Forgotten Realms Campaign Set (available in PDF form from a couple of different places) has "electrum pieces" as well as a different money system than that of 3.x FR. Would I be right in assuming that those pieces aren't used anymore and noone really pays attention to them? Is there anyone who plays FR 3.x who uses the system presented in the set? Electrum peices was a core d&d thing back then. 3.0 "got rid" of the electrum peices. To be honest, I ignored electum peices back in 2ed. They added more work then they were worth. This is only my oppinion, and the few others I gamed with. In the 3e FRCS, it mentions shaved coins. Shaved coins can be made out of any coin material and are worth an amount based on how much has been shaved off, correct? What about shaved versions of strange currency. Are there shaved iron steelpence, Shaar rings, and Gond Bells? Does the same go for pearls used as currency? Shaveing a coin is for the truely deperate. Shave a Gond bell, you will most likely remove all value from the item, you have just removed metal from the item, changing the tone of the bell, for what? A few brass fileings? Shave a pearl, same thing, you have just removed the natural shean of the pearl, for pearl dust. Another thing that confuses me about the money in FR is how it is worth different amounts in different areas? How does that work? How could a Gond bell be worth 20 gp when donating it to a temple to the deity but only be worth 10 gp anywhere else? What about pearls? I can get a green tayar for 1 gp under the sea and sell it for 20 on shore, then go back and buy 20 more until the supply runs out? How does this not **** with the economy of Faerun? The gond bell is worth more to gond worshipers. In real world terms, a brass cross will be worth more to a christan then say a jewish person. The cross has more meaning to the christain. To get the full 20 gp value, you will need to get far away from the shore. Go to the seaside, stop in any of the torist shops and look at the price of the shells. Now travel to Minisota or Arizona, to find a similar shell you may have to track down an art store or a similar specialty shop, look at the price of the shell. EDIT: No offence is intended, I am assumeing US resedence here.
Old Sage 11-16-05, 07:49 PM	Electrum coins still exist. I mean really, the mines just didn't dry up over night. :)And let us not forget the Muaraghal in Halruaa. It is considered to be the site of some of the purest electrum deposits that can be found in the Realms. We know the Halruaans have been mining near and around Lake Maeru for many hundreds of years. Both Shining South tomes note that this particular electrum vein shows no sign of running out for quite some time.
Ocrus of Wessek 11-16-05, 07:58 PM	However the idea that a 10,000 GP diamond is still worth 10,000 GP when powdered is hogwash - it might be worth only 1000 GP or maybe even less (as little as 100 GP). THe value is based on natural rareity - and big stones are NOT common. you can make that same pile of diamond dust from a lot of small low quality diamonds as easily as you can from one huge super quality gem so the dust's value is much less. Never but never crush large stones unless it is absolutely essential for some spell. I was operating under the assumption that the only reason anyone would be stupid enough to crush up a diamond would be for a spell. in that case it would still be worth the same amount. For instance if a spell reqiures let us sat 500gp worth of diamond dust, then crushing up a single 500 gp will yield the same result as say crushing up 5 100 gp diamonds.