Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Crust 01-23-04, 02:18 PM	How do you folks take care of this? Let's say the group slays an ancient red dragon, leaving behind a hoard the size of a small beach filled with coins, gems, art objects, and items. That group has a few spellcasters capable of using teleport multiple times. Would you as a DM allow them to use teleport to transport the entire hoard back and forth from lair to stronghold? How difficult would you determine that process to be? I realize that teleport allows high level spellcasters to transport heavy loads along with them, but would being in contact with a pile of coins and gems allow the spellcaster to automatically transport their limit of weight allowance along with them, or would those coins have to be placed in a chest or large bag, allowing the chest or bag's weight to count for the travel weight? Would the piled coins sort of "join hands" in the teleport weight dispersment? My group is dragon hunting, and if they succeed, they'll have a huge hoard to deal with. Is it realistic to think that they (a cleric14, wizard19, sorcerer14, barbarian16... this is a quick estimate) could use their teleport spells to transport the entire hoard in one trip (after doing all the math), or would a long process of teleports be in order? Would most of the treasure have to be hauled out of there? What do you think? How would you handle it?
Wooly Rupert 01-23-04, 02:39 PM	I'd rule that they had to bag it all up, or otherwise put it into containers. I can not recall any instances, in game or in novels, where something was teleported along just because someone was standing on it. Of course, you could have a bit of fun: say that they can teleport stuff by being in contact with it. Then, when they get to their destination, only the coins they were physically in direct contact with made the trip! :smirk: On a side note, there's always been one thing that bugged me about dragons' hoards. Dragons are big critters, and are usually portrayed as sprawling out on their hoard. But seriously, how much room is a few thousand coins gonna take up? I used to use pennies in maragarita shakers as bookends. I had two that were shaped like José Cuervo bottles, and those both held about $7 worth of pennies. That's 700 pennies, in a container six inches high, three inches wide, and two inches deep (approximately). Granted, a gold piece will be larger than a penny, but still, it should take hundreds of thousands -- if not millions -- of coins to make a bed large enough for a dragon. Anyway, that's always been a minor quibble on my part.
Crust 01-23-04, 03:04 PM	A size comparison in relation to a man-sized individual would help.
Cunning Linguist 01-23-04, 03:33 PM	Then don't let there be any gold there.. This dragon loved copper.. 1.000.000 copper is still only 10.000 gold.
El_Machinae 01-23-04, 05:14 PM	The portable hole is your friend. Even making the coins rather large, you can fit many coins into a portable hole.
J. Grenemyer 01-23-04, 05:49 PM	Hi Crust, Originally posted by Crust How do you folks take care of this? I’ve ruled that unless my players can fit each and every hoard item into some sort of fixed container (or group of containers within reach of the teleporting PC’s), then multiple teleport trips are required. I don’t think Teleport will allow for loose coins that are touching each other to be counted as one item for purposes of weight limit. Thus, my players make use a spell called Rapid Journey (from the Scarred Lands setting) that allows for multiple teleports to and from a specific set of points over a limited duration. That’s how they move lots of stuff. ;) In terms of loose coins, gems and (relatively) small art pieces/items my players make heavy use of Bags of Holding (several crafted “in-house” by the characters themselves). My players have their characters take the time to pack everything up in as many bags as possible, then cast Rapid Journey. They tend not to count coins until they get everything home, which speeds up the packing process. I don’t have an exact method of estimating how long a hoard takes to get packed up. I just have the players tell me how many PC’s and Cohorts will help and compare this to the physical size of the hoard (in 5x5 squares); then I make a guestimate. Once home, they use another spell from the Scarred Lands setting (the name escapes me) to magically count all the coins. At this point they also begin identifying and appraising items. Lastly, depending on how devious you as a DM are, you could always have Manshoon, another Dragon, Halaster, etc.. place a Teleport Snare/Teleport Redirect within the PC’s path. Perhaps a Manshoon Clone is up to his creator’s old tricks again (of waiting for –or even baiting– a group of adventurers to kill a dragon so that Manshoon doesn’t have to, then attacking and killing off the weakened adventurers right after the Dragon battle). Thus, he could have scried the battle with the Dragon and then cast a Redirect just after it ended. The redirect might lead to his private dungeons deep beneath Zhentil Keep, or perhaps a forgotten level of Undermountain. This way the PC’s will have to fight their way out if they want to keep their treasure. :smirk: :D
SALDAR 01-23-04, 06:12 PM	The coin pictured in the PHB (At work with no books handy so no page number; I think it's in the adventuring chapter) is about one inch in diameter and represents a standard coin in the game. There is no thickness provided so the following is conjecture, you can use your own judgement. A quarter has a diameter close to the standard coin pictured, about one inch, and is 1/16th of an inch thick. The modern production of coins uses a press that exerts an extreme amount of force to stamp a coin. This causes the metal within the coin to be compressed and wear very slowly. Such technology was not used to produce ancient coinage for the most part, ancient coins were made by pouring molten metal into a mold. Ancient coins of precious metals would have to be thicker as they were not made of harder metals and were not compressed. So with this I'm suggesting a thickness of 1/8th inch for a standard coin (If you don't care for this measurement then adjust it as you see fit, it's your game and I don't want to start a multi page post over something as trivial as coinage in the game.) These dimensions, 1 inch dia. and 1/8th inch thick, would allow 8 coins per cubic inch if stacked neatly. A cubic foot would contain 13,824 coins (12"X12"X12"X8coins), if stacked neatly. If not stacked there would be fewer coins per cubic foot. I believe that in a sidebar in the Draconomican it mentions 10,000 coins per cubic foot, most likely unstacked. This may seem like a lot of coins to lose by not stacking (almost 28%), but if you really want to you can use this 0 level Wiz/Sor spell: Saldar's Damn That's Neat, which places all small loose objects of approximately 1/3rd of an ounce within a 1 cubic foot area into neat little piles. (No save, No SR, CT 1 Standard Action, Arcane School of Penny Pinching) I'm not going to discuss the weights and densities of the different metals used in coins simply because the coinage system within the game would comprise its own chapter in a rulebook and IMO we really don't need it to be that complex. If you wish to do the physics please do, I'll not argue.
SALDAR 01-24-04, 08:45 PM	FYI a Portable Hole contains 282.74 cubic feet of space. This will hold 2,827,400 loose coins or 3,908,597 neatly stacked coins. Other dimensional containers have weight limits so calculate 50 coins per pound by the rules.
Amoun 01-25-04, 07:24 AM	out of curiosity where did you find that the portable hole holds that much? I read the entry and it only states an extradimensional space 10 ft deep. As I remember that it was the same in 2nd edition... I'll have to check in my old books... its been a while... Nope, Encyclopedia Arcana states the same thing... So if you can tell me I'd be grateful. (I mean even if it was a shaped as a box it could only hold 360 cubic feet and thats if its filled to the brim)
SALDAR 01-26-04, 12:09 AM	Basic algebra. The area of a circle is pi times the radius squared. A cylinder is pi times the radius squared times the length. In the case of a portable hole the diameter is 6 feet (radius of 3) and it is 10 feet deep (the length). Pi is approximately 3.14, but I used the calculator in Windows without rounding it off and got a larger answer. Using the rounded version you get 3.14*3*3*10 equals 282.6 cubic feet. Using the Windows scientific calculator gets you the larger amount of 282.743338823081.... cubic feet.
SALDAR 01-26-04, 12:26 AM	It's me again. As to Crust's original question, make them bag it, box it, stuff their pockets. Coins and gems are objects and you can only teleport those objects you, or the other creatures you are teleporting with, are touching or carrying. The spell description in the 3.5 PHB spells it out clearly.
Veers Unleashed 01-26-04, 05:49 AM	Hehe, you guys are so quick to bag, box, portable hole and teleport this stuff away. This was an ancient red? Well me laddies, Red equals fire. Fire is hot. When in fear for its life that red would breathe. Coins, armor, weapons exposed to heat tends to melt. So you get a whole new scenario, i.e. how long does it take a group of adventurers to cut said melted treasure into manageable chunks (and before you say it, no group worth it's salt would leave a scrap behind unless death himself were coming....even if he was, someone would be willing to fight a delaying action to make sure that lone Tiger Eye gemstone didn’t fall out of his pocket on the mad dash out). Following this line, what you have after the conflagration is something wholly different than a nice pile/bed of coins but a large clod of fused gems, treasure and coinslag. Granted it's mostly where he breathed but it's still a large area. I've done this to players, they hated me. This is my way of saying, "Congratulations on a dragon well slaughtered boys". Followed by, "Detect magic? Oh yes, yes, Magic items abound....there is part of a hilt glowing heartily...sticking out of the fused morass of treasure, Muhahaha" Killing a dragon is no small feat; neither should be packing off his hoard. All this takes time, how long before other treasure seekers show up? Keep those high level dragonslayers on their toes guys, don't let them "Walk" off without a scare or some further work :smirk: . Play on, Veers
Wooly Rupert 01-26-04, 12:52 PM	Originally posted by Veers Unleashed Hehe, you guys are so quick to bag, box, portable hole and teleport this stuff away. This was an ancient red? Well me laddies, Red equals fire. Fire is hot. When in fear for its life that red would breathe. Coins, armor, weapons exposed to heat tends to melt. So you get a whole new scenario, i.e. how long does it take a group of adventurers to cut said melted treasure into manageable chunks (and before you say it, no group worth it's salt would leave a scrap behind unless death himself were coming....even if he was, someone would be willing to fight a delaying action to make sure that lone Tiger Eye gemstone didn’t fall out of his pocket on the mad dash out). Following this line, what you have after the conflagration is something wholly different than a nice pile/bed of coins but a large clod of fused gems, treasure and coinslag. Granted it's mostly where he breathed but it's still a large area. I've done this to players, they hated me. This is my way of saying, "Congratulations on a dragon well slaughtered boys". Followed by, "Detect magic? Oh yes, yes, Magic items abound....there is part of a hilt glowing heartily...sticking out of the fused morass of treasure, Muhahaha" Killing a dragon is no small feat; neither should be packing off his hoard. All this takes time, how long before other treasure seekers show up? Keep those high level dragonslayers on their toes guys, don't let them "Walk" off without a scare or some further work :smirk: . Play on, Veers I disagree with you on this. Dragons love their hoards. And dragons know the effects of their breath weapons. Dragons also know that others will try to steal their hoards. Many dragons will do something intelligent, like locate their hoard in another room or rooms. And even if the combat does take place in the treasure room, the dragon won't breathe directly on the gold unless someone is standing on it. Besides, I'd say that it would take at least a couple of rounds of direct dragonfire to melt gold. Otherwise, a dragon could hiccup and melt half the hoard...
SALDAR 01-27-04, 09:00 PM	Wooly Rupert is correct. The image of a dragon just lounging around upon a bed of coins may be a good subject for a piece of artwork. Within the reality of the game, though, the dragon has spent a lot of time and energy collecting its hoard and is intimately aware of every piece. Why would it just turn it into a pile of slag and ashes (or whatever depending on the breed), thus destroying its innate value. Considering it is this innate value that makes the hoard important to the dragon and its peers or potential mates as a symbol of the dragon's status. This would be as sensible as a wizard casting a fireball that would destroy his or her spell books along with the enemy. Once the dragon wins the fight, which in the mind of a dragon is the only conceivable outcome, all that would be left is rubbish. Besides, after a party has spent the necessary time in tracking down a dragon's lair and fighting their way through its minions, guardians, protective spells, and other defenses, taking away or destroyng the value of that which they have so rightfully earned can lead to a lack of interest in the game or hard feelings between the players and the DM. Congratulations, you just won the Super Bowl but you don't get the trophy, the money, or the ring.
Veers Unleashed 01-28-04, 01:52 AM	Originally posted by Wooly Rupert Besides, I'd say that it would take at least a couple of rounds of direct dragonfire to melt gold. Otherwise, a dragon could hiccup and melt half the hoard... Normally i dont quote sources, heres one exception. From Dragon Magazine # 138 pg 32 "Fire for Effect" by Richard W. Emerich Exceptionally hot fires: ....some examples of which are, fireballs, firestorms, flame strikes and dragons breath etc. One can assign a temperature range of 1,250-1,950° C (2,280-3,540° F) From WebElements Periodic Table (http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/) Melting point of.... Gold: Melting point [/K]: 1337.33 [or 1064.18 °C (1947.52 °F)] Silver: Melting point [/K]: 1234.93 [or 961.78 °C (1763.2 °F)] Copper: Melting point [/K]: 1357.77 [or 1084.62 °C (1984.32 °F)] Platinum: Melting point [/K]: 2041.4 [or 1768.3 °C (3214.9 °F)] the [/K] stands for kelvin, the basic unit of thermodynamic temperature adopted under the System International d'Unites. If i looked hard enough i could present melting points for Admantium and electrum. But i have proven my point, when it breathes on anything, these listed precious metals melt. One application of its breath or the above mentioned spells will do the trick. As a dying dragon, i would fry my hoard. But thats me (shrugs). Play on, Veers
Wooly Rupert 01-28-04, 02:16 AM	Originally posted by Veers Unleashed But i have proven my point, when it breathes on anything, these listed precious metals melt. One application of its breath or the above mentioned spells will do the trick. As a dying dragon, i would fry my hoard. But thats me (shrugs). Play on, Veers Sorry, but you have not proven your point. Sure, you've proven that dragonfire will melt gold. That was not the issue... Granted, a dragon's breath is hot enough to melt gold. But the dragon would have to breathe directly on the gold, and maintain the fire, to melt the gold. It will not instantaneously melt as soon as heat touches it. Look at it this way: You can drop an ice cube into boiling water. Sure, the ice will melt, but it's not instantaneous. Ditto for a big glob of butter in a frying pan. So when that dragon breathes fire on its hoard, one round of fire won't do too much damage. The outermost coins will prolly soften, and any details minted on the coins would become less clear... I'd say that the second round, most (but not all of the mound of gold) would start to get soft like that, while the outermost level is starting to drip. Third round, the outermost level is now pouring, the majority is softened and starting to run. Some coins in the very bottom may still be reasonably intact. Fourth round, you've got a golden puddle. That's all assuming, of course, that the dragon can breathe fire for four consecutive rounds... Now, are the adventurers just gonna stand around and watch this happen? No, they'll be doing their best to finish off the dragon. Besides, let's look a bit more at the nature of dragons. Someone comes to kill you. You're big and bad, how can these puny little mammals present any kind of threat? So combat starts, and things turn against you. Things continue to go bad, and you realize you're doomed. Your choices at this point: A) go down fighting, taking as many of the puny mammals with you as possible B) be spiteful, destroy your beloved hoard, while ignoring these puny mammals who are taking the opportunity to do further damage to you -- meaning they could kill you before you do any damage to the gold you've spent years collecting or C) beat a hasty retreat, swearing revenge. Seriously now, what dragon would go for option B? I'm sorry, but I think that's about as plausible as the average episode of Scooby Doo.
Veers Unleashed 01-28-04, 07:23 AM	Originally posted by Wooly Rupert Sorry, but you have not proven your point. Sure, you've proven that dragonfire will melt gold. That was not the issue... Granted, a dragon's breath is hot enough to melt gold. But the dragon would have to breathe directly on the gold, and maintain the fire, to melt the gold. It will not instantaneously melt as soon as heat touches it. Look at it this way: You can drop an ice cube into boiling water. Sure, the ice will melt, but it's not instantaneous. Ditto for a big glob of butter in a frying pan. You're right there. But this isn't ice cubes and butter. This is coinage exposed to magical dragon fire. The word magical on its own denotes fantasy. As a D.M. you take certain liberties do you not? My original post was in the spirit of the thread, i merely intended to show that if said Dragon was indeed with his hoard at the time of the attack and he did indeed breathe during combat, things wouldn't be so easily carted off. So when that dragon breathes fire on its hoard, one round of fire won't do too much damage. The outermost coins will prolly soften, and any details minted on the coins would become less clear... I'd say that the second round, most (but not all of the mound of gold) would start to get soft like that, while the outermost level is starting to drip. Third round, the outermost level is now pouring, the majority is softened and starting to run. Some coins in the very bottom may still be reasonably intact. Fourth round, you've got a golden puddle. Fair enough, this is how you would handle it. My nice shell of melted treasure over the remainder after a single breath is how i would have done so. Two D.M.s, two opinions. That's all assuming, of course, that the dragon can breathe fire for four consecutive rounds... It couldn't, we don't have to assume that. In AD&D the Forgotten Realms dragon could in one breath, cause damage equal to three times it's hit points. If we triple the heat in my preceding post (a necessarry thing to inflict three times the damage in the same amount of time) we approach if not exceed the boiling points for the same metals. Which by the way were the rules used during the period i had this happen. Besides, let's look a bit more at the nature of dragons. Someone comes to kill you. You're big and bad, how can these puny little mammals present any kind of threat? So combat starts, and things turn against you. Things continue to go bad, and you realize you're doomed. Your choices at this point: A) go down fighting, taking as many of the puny mammals with you as possible B) be spiteful, destroy your beloved hoard, while ignoring these puny mammals who are taking the opportunity to do further damage to you -- meaning they could kill you before you do any damage to the gold you've spent years collecting or C) beat a hasty retreat, swearing revenge. Each option answered: A). A dragon that is in his/her hoard and must kill these interlopers quickly is going to breathe, it's his/her natural reaction during combat and it's best weapon. Sure it'll lose a bit of its hoard, which is easily remedied by some raiding. Or it's minions can finish the process and make some nice rare alloy brick-a-brak, something no one else has in their hoard (a plus on the mating scale in the dragons mind). B). I don't recall saying that this particular dragon was intentionally trying to destroy it's hoard. C). If the combat occurred in its hoard, it would by default be breathing in combat while retreating and planning revenge. Seriously now, what dragon would go for option B? I agree whole-heartedly, no dragon in its right mind would go for option B. In my post it was collateral damage from a dragon breathing in it's hoard during combat. At no point in either post did i say, "All the treasure is melted" nor did i say, "So the adventurers get nothing". What i did say is, "Granted it's mostly where he breathed but it's still a large area. And, "Killing a dragon is no small feat; neither should be packing off his hoard." The damaged treasure was but another example of the difficulties you would incur, post combat, requiring a little extra time and work to make off with the hoard. I'm sorry, but I think that's about as plausible as the average episode of Scooby Doo. If it were an episode of scooby doo, the adventurers would slay the dragon and pull off the mask revealing the face of Bill Gates. Who would say. "And i would have gotten away with it too if it wasnt for you meddling kids...now you pay taxes on it (Sinister laugh)." Play on but play nice, Veers
Maia Lythar-Starym 01-28-04, 11:11 AM	4 PC's vs. an ancient Red Dragon. I do not think that they can pull this off. But if they do, I would make them pack it up in bags, chests, any such containers. I wouldn't fret on the exact amount of coinage. Give them totals as far as what the hoard is worth as opposed to how many copper pieces are there. Remember this dragon is not just sleeping in a cave without any safegaurds or traps.:rolleyes: This dragon would also have well laid out defensive plans. As well as some type of cohorts or defenders. A few Fire Elementals, etc. Also the Dragon could have some type of magical protection from Cold Based Attacks. :ayyyy!: Also the dragon would probaly have some way to use different types of attacks, Lightning bolts, Acid attacks, etc. The dragon would know that the PC's would come in protected from fire based attacks. This Dragon did not become ancient by being careless.
Wooly Rupert 01-28-04, 11:11 AM	Originally posted by Veers Unleashed You're right there. But this isn't ice cubes and butter. This is coinage exposed to magical dragon fire. The word magical on its own denotes fantasy. As a D.M. you take certain liberties do you not? My original post was in the spirit of the thread, i merely intended to show that if said Dragon was indeed with his hoard at the time of the attack and he did indeed breathe during combat, things wouldn't be so easily carted off. Even so... Are you saying that just breathing in the vicinity of the hoard would cause the gold to melt? Because if it's that hot, the heat would melt the adventurers, too, even if they were nowhere near the flames. Dragonfire is hot, but not that hot. That's why I say it would take a sustained blast to melt the gold. Originally posted by Veers Unleashed Fair enough, this is how you would handle it. My nice shell of melted treasure over the remainder after a single breath is how i would have done so. Two D.M.s, two opinions. Fair enough. Originally posted by Veers Unleashed It couldn't, we don't have to assume that. In AD&D the Forgotten Realms dragon could in one breath, cause damage equal to three times it's hit points. If we triple the heat in my preceding post (a necessarry thing to inflict three times the damage in the same amount of time) we approach if not exceed the boiling points for the same metals. Which by the way were the rules used during the period i had this happen. I'm not familiar with these rules... Why would you triple the heat? Wouldn't that necessary triple the damage of the breath weapon? Originally posted by Veers Unleashed B). I don't recall saying that this particular dragon was intentionally trying to destroy it's hoard. What you said was: Originally posted by Veers Unleashed As a dying dragon, i would fry my hoard. But thats me (shrugs). I'm sorry, but I read that as an attempt to destroy the hoard. All that melting the gold would accomplish is to make it harder to cart off, and maybe cause a small loss of monetary value (harder to spend a lump than a coin). But any adventurers resourceful enough to kill a dragon in it's lair are gonna be resourceful enough to cart off the gold, no matter what form its in. So it becomes a pointless operation for the dragon. Might as well direct that last breathe at the cleric or the mage, and really inconvenience the adventurers. Originally posted by Veers Unleashed C). If the combat occurred in its hoard, it would by default be breathing in combat while retreating and planning revenge. I agree whole-heartedly, no dragon in its right mind would go for option B. In my post it was collateral damage from a dragon breathing in it's hoard during combat. But again, unless the adventurers are standing directly on the hoard, then only backwash is going to hit the gold. If the heat is so intense to melt the gold just on a backwash, then -- as I said earlier -- the adventurers are gonna be melting, too. I don't know the melting point for flesh, but I'm sure its substantially lower than that of gold. Originally posted by Veers Unleashed At no point in either post did i say, "All the treasure is melted" nor did i say, "So the adventurers get nothing". What i did say is, "Granted it's mostly where he breathed but it's still a large area. And, "Killing a dragon is no small feat; neither should be packing off his hoard." The damaged treasure was but another example of the difficulties you would incur, post combat, requiring a little extra time and work to make off with the hoard. 'Tis true, you did not say that. I was a little too quick to reply, perhaps. But I don't think that the hoard is that likely to get damaged... Originally posted by Veers Unleashed If it were an episode of scooby doo, the adventurers would slay the dragon and pull off the mask revealing the face of Bill Gates. Who would say. "And i would have gotten away with it too if it wasnt for you meddling kids...now you pay taxes on it (Sinister laugh)." You forgot the licensing fees! :D
Lashan 01-28-04, 05:18 PM	I've always wanted to have carrying away a dragon's horde to be an adventure unto itself. I mean, everyone steals from Tolkien, and look what he did with a dragon's treasure! The Battle of Five Armies! As for teleporting, there are a number of ways to handle it. I am sure that it would take quite a few teleport spells to get it back home. One thing is where is it you are teleporting it to? Is that a secure area? Are there servants around? If they aren't stealing, they can gossip. Theives hear gossip. Perhaps someone will break in while they are teleporting, or even try to crack their skulls when they come home. That right there could be an adventure. Wasn't there a free web adventure that dealt with a teleport beacon? I think it was a gizyankorwhatevertheyarecalled that created a teleport trap. It pulled all teleports into it. That could be a good one to use on them trying to teleport a hoard away. One thing to watch out for is who knows they are hunting the dragon? If word spreads that they are hunting the dragon, I am sure there would be interested parties trying to scry to see what happened. Even if the players lost, the interested parties could try to go in and finish off the Dragon. Perhaps there are evil people who wouldn't mind taking the hoard, if possible. Is one of the items in the hoard an heirloom? Perhaps a noble family wants possession of a prize magic item back? Lots of things could happen with a dead dragon's hoard...and that's not even counting the Cult of the Dragon and dracoliches!
dragonheart 02-19-04, 11:38 AM	first to answer the initial question - bag it - bags boxes, portable holes, bags of holding etc (and a few shrink item spells along the way wouldn't hurt either). then teleport - with all the possible problems others have mentioned. As to the breath melting the gold and the levels heat - the temperatures stated are typical of extremely hot fires and forges -these are the next level down from "magical" fire like a breath weapon or fireball - I read this to mean that magical fires reach temperatures not normally reachable by humans until the 1800s or 1900s so I would start the temperatures at around 2500 C and place a top end around 5000 C - about all that is left is pure carbon ash - everything else has evaporated if it really reaches this temperature - of course as it cools downs in contacting the walls etc it reprecipitates coating the walls in gold copper, silver, platinum and iron and maybe in many little gemstones as well. have fun scraping the walss clean for the next year. this might well also destroy most of the magic items - at least those not protected by anti fire magic. Luckily this doesn't generally happen because the breath only lasts 1 round (about 6 seconds) - not enough time to get very hot despite the temperature. As someone who has actually had their booted foot in molten lava I can tell you it takes few seconds for the heat to transfer. so even if the dragon breathed directly on the hoard it is doubtful that it would melt. third - numbers of coins etc. you might look in the new Draconomicon for its discussion of this as it has sample dragon hoards and addresses this issue directly. 4th - my own question - why are dragon hoards so small? when I worked it out for myself for an adventure in my campaign a hoard of 280,000 GPV turned out to contain @40,000 gpv in coins, another 40,000 gpv in gems and the rest in magic items (a total of 11 items) almost seems a bit paltry :D
Mirtek 02-19-04, 06:49 PM	Originally posted by Wooly Rupert and maintain the fire, to melt the gold. It will not instantaneously melt as soon as heat touches it. Actually it would, at least according to D&D rules. 20d10 fire damage against hardness 5(?) and only a few HP would melt the gold instandly. Sure, the dragon would avoid to endanger his treasure at nearly all cost, but if it's his very last option (or if he 100% knows that it's too late and he's going to die) he won't hestitate.
Herr Doktor 02-19-04, 07:38 PM	What sort of cocky jerk of a party attacks a dragon in its lair anyway? As for the teleportation... I agree with most of what has been said above. If they are standing on a few coins then whatever they are directly touching can come along with them, which I suppose would mean that burrying oneself in coins could allow you to carry far more per teleport use.
Wooly Rupert 02-19-04, 10:55 PM	Originally posted by Mirtek Actually it would, at least according to D&D rules. 20d10 fire damage against hardness 5(?) and only a few HP would melt the gold instandly. Sure, the dragon would avoid to endanger his treasure at nearly all cost, but if it's his very last option (or if he 100% knows that it's too late and he's going to die) he won't hestitate. Maybe the outermost layer... Go back and read my entire post. It'd take a while to melt all of the gold. If dragonfire was that effective, then a dragon could bore a tunnel through a mountain in a matter of minutes.
Derren S. 02-20-04, 04:31 AM	Originally posted by Wooly Rupert If dragonfire was that effective, then a dragon could bore a tunnel through a mountain in a matter of minutes. By the rules they can. Gold has Hardness, Gold has HP. And when enough damage is done to it it melts. And Dragon breath covers a very large area.
Monsoon28 02-20-04, 09:28 AM	Crusty: Do you have the 3E Draconomicon? As I understand it you have a Part with effectively a EL just under 16 vs. a Ancient Red with a CR:23. If they are to have any chance I would at least suggest that the Wizard have the 3 following spells, with a few extra copies on Scroll. 1./ Firstly and Most Importantly Lower Spell Resistance or else your Cleric and Sorceror are pretty much useless. 2./ Suppress Dragon Breath: Need I say more. 3./ Earthbind or else your Barbarian will be stuck with Bows and Thrown weapons. ************* Btw...in regards to Combat, If you look at the Typical Red Dragon Layer, it is unlikely that it will be fighting in its Storage Chamber so I wouldn't worry about it destroying its treasure. Some coppers for your time...
Wooly Rupert 02-20-04, 10:42 AM	Originally posted by Derren S. By the rules they can. Gold has Hardness, Gold has HP. And when enough damage is done to it it melts. And Dragon breath covers a very large area. If I have a cutting torch, it would be possible to use it to cut my car in half -- the torch is designed to be that hot. But if I put the flame on the car for only six seconds and then pull it away, it won't do much more than burn off paint and dimple the metal. Thus I maintain that a single breath of dragonfire is not going to be sufficient to melt a pile of gold coins. At most, it would melt the outermost layer. I have said all I'm saying on this one. I got tired of this argument a while ago.
Misyrr 02-20-04, 11:13 AM	I'd say that if they plan on taking the entirety of the dragon's horde then they'd better plan on sacrificing a large amount of time just searching its lair for every last coin and bauble. They'll need to pack it all away in chests and sacks so that they may actually carry it as they teleport back to their stronghold. As for the contention of wether dragon fire melts gold or not. I'm going to have to agree with Wooly. In the DMG (3.5) on page 303 there are rules about Heat Dangers and Catching on Fire. It says that instantaneous effects produce flame that comes and goes in a flash, and so does not set PCs on fire, nor their clothes or hair. I can't find a place where it specifically says that a dragon's breath weapon is an instantaneous effect, but I'm pretty sure it is. If the dragon has the Lingering Breath feat from the new Draconomicon or some other way of continuous breathing, then I might see the risk of melting down giant stacks of gold as feasible.
Mirtek 02-20-04, 12:46 PM	Originally posted by Wooly Rupert If I have a cutting torch, it would be possible to use it to cut my car in half -- the torch is designed to be that hot. But if I put the flame on the car for only six seconds and then pull it away, it won't do much more than burn off paint and dimple the metal. Thus I maintain that a single breath of dragonfire is not going to be sufficient to melt a pile of gold coins. At most, it would melt the outermost layer. I have said all I'm saying on this one. I got tired of this argument a while ago. And in D&D a torch couldn't melt gold (or your car), since it's damage won't even overcome the hardness. But an acient dragons breath could burn both, gold and your car, quite easily. Compared to D20 Modern, dragon breath does more damage than a cruise missle. And never forget that it isn't ordinary fire, but that dragon breath is (Su)
Wooly Rupert 02-20-04, 01:11 PM	Originally posted by Mirtek And in D&D a torch couldn't melt gold (or your car), since it's damage won't even overcome the hardness. But an acient dragons breath could burn both, gold and your car, quite easily. Compared to D20 Modern, dragon breath does more damage than a cruise missle. And never forget that it isn't ordinary fire, but that dragon breath is (Su) I never denied that a dragon's breath could melt gold. My whole point is that 6 seconds of heat is not going to do it! Anything will melt. But for a substance to melt, it has to be brought up to its melting point. Gold is not going to go from room temperature to whatever its melting point is in a mere six seconds, not from dragonfire. I don't care if it's supernatural, extraordinary, magical, or Just Plain Nifty. The single burst of heat is not enough to flash-melt gold. If you had enough heat to melt gold in less than six seconds, that heat would also melt stone, and set on fire any flammable objects (including PCs) in a large radius. Let me give you a real-world example. I used to work in the kitchen of a restaurant, and we had deep friers. The grease in those deep friers was 350°. Water freezes at 32°. More than once, I tossed ice into the frier (I liked the noise it made). The grease was more than 11 times the melting point of ice. But it still took time for that ice to melt. Mere seconds, certainly, but it still took time. Had I been quick, I coulda fished out the ice before it was totally melted. However, going by the arguments others have been using, that ice would have vanished in a puff of steam, before it even sank. That did not happen, because it didn't heat up *quite* that fast. Thus, 6 seconds of dragonfire, even if directed against a pile of gold coins, is not going to leave you a puddle of molten gold. You would more likely have a pile of gold coins under a fused shell of coins, but all of the gold would not melt at a mere touch of heat. Kindly re-read all of my posts before replying. I am thoroughly tired of arguing about this! So can we leave off with this topic?
Kuje31 02-20-04, 02:17 PM	Originally posted by Wooly Rupert I never denied that a dragon's breath could melt gold. My whole point is that 6 seconds of heat is not going to do it! Hey Wooly, I have to agree with you here. There would probably be hundred if not thousands of coins in a hoard and I am sorry but there is NO way all of those coins are going to melt in six seconds or less. Yes maybe as Wooly said, the outer layer might, but it is NOT possible for ALL of them to melt in six seconds!
Hizar 02-20-04, 03:25 PM	While I agree that they need to bag it and that bags of holding and other interdiminsional products serve well. I would question teleporting it afterward. Doesn't teleporting a interdiminsional product cuase a rift destroying everything? I can't quote a rule right now but I know of a certine Harpel that Salvatore said did it once, with a chest of holding and a teleport. lets just say it wasn't good.
Mirtek 02-20-04, 03:33 PM	Originally posted by Wooly Rupert My whole point is that 6 seconds of heat is not going to do it! And my whole point is that, according to D&D rules, it is going to do it. It's just a matter of Hardness/HP versus damage Originally posted by Wooly Rupert I don't care if it's supernatural, extraordinary, magical, or Just Plain Nifty. The single burst of heat is not enough to flash-melt gold. Well, it's magic. Enough said. IMO it would be a pitty if a dragon's breath couldn't melt anything. That would take away a lot of flavor. E.G. i am currently reading The Nether Scrolls and during their journey the characters came past a place of a red dragon attack. The novel described a huge deformation of rock, which came to be because the rock had melted under the breath attack and then later cooled down again. Originally posted by Wooly Rupert If you had enough heat to melt gold in less than six seconds, that heat would also melt stone, and set on fire any flammable objects (including PCs) in a large radius. Just annother part where D&D rules are not realistic. Per D&D rules a high level fighter could also be submerged in lava and come out alive.
Ashalorn 02-20-04, 03:50 PM	Just to insert rules support for Wooly's belief that only the outer layer would melt: big damage from breath weapon -> overcomes hardness and hp of outer layer of gold -> outer layer is melted. breath weapon has line of effect to inner layer blocked by outer layer -> inner layer benefits from total cover -> inner layer is untouched. :)
tauster 02-20-04, 04:03 PM	Originally posted by Ashalorn big damage from breath weapon -> overcomes hardness and hp of outer layer of gold -> outer layer is melted. breath weapon has line of effect to inner layer blocked by outer layer -> inner layer benefits from total cover -> inner layer is untouched. :) that´s just great, plain great! *applauds* :) i wish i´d come up with that kind of rules-application when my players start to argue with me over some thing or another! another topic, briefly adressed by hizar: bags of holding: i know that it´s not the best idea to enter an extradimensional space when having another one with you. ...or do i have to open a bag of holding inside a portable hole to be sent to the astral plane? can´t remember... :rolleyes: now what about gates and portals? can i go through a portal/gate with a bag of holding in my backpack or a folded (=closed) portable hole? and what about teleporting? disaster or not? tauster
Mirtek 02-20-04, 04:45 PM	Originally posted by Ashalorn Just to insert rules support for Wooly's belief that only the outer layer would melt: big damage from breath weapon -> overcomes hardness and hp of outer layer of gold -> outer layer is melted. breath weapon has line of effect to inner layer blocked by outer layer -> inner layer benefits from total cover -> inner layer is untouched.:) But the layers aren't airtight. The fire will "flow" through the spaces between the piled gold and melt more than just the coins who happen to lay on top. It might not reach all before the melted layers grant total cover to the coins behind them, but it should still melt a big part of a stack of coins.
dragonheart 02-21-04, 01:06 PM	Mirtek - in your campaign all the gold melts - for the rest of us it doesn't. as to the teleports and extra dimensional containers I've always read the various rules as saying that two open items nerf each other, you and everything in both; placing one container in another does the same thing but the instantaneous nature of a teleport prevents that from happening since you were never really "in" or at least you were out before the containers had a chance to react to each other.
SALDAR 02-21-04, 10:12 PM	Opening two extradimensional containers near each other is not a problem as the container itself is basically a doorway allowing access into an extradimensional space. Placing one in the other causes the problem as your trying to place one extradimensional space into another. This also keeps players from filling a portable hole with bags of holding full of gold, thus eliminating the weight of the bags. As for teleporting, portals, gates, etc., they do not affect these containers as they are not extradimensional "spaces". They are simply ways of bending space to get from point A to point B quickly, just like stepping through a doorway or onto an elevator. As for melting or not melting, it's not part of the original post and is up to the individual gaming groups involved, who should discuss it without arguing over it. It's just a game.