Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Drax Alcronis 04-23-04, 10:08 AM	What would or should be the consequences to the FR if Khelben, Elminster, Storm Silverhand and The Simbul were Destroyed? My DM posed this question. At first the debate went well, but it quickly degenerated. If you don't agree with the premise of the thread, please refrain from posting, since your input will more than likely be ingnored and not appreciated.. As the player of Palm, I am prepared to answer specifics questions about him and his actions, or lack therof. Those who insult or otherwise try to derail the topic, will be promptly reported. Questions? The last thread had many, I was unavailable to take part as I was outta town. I am here now. Fire away.
WizO_BigSister 04-23-04, 06:26 PM	A lot of people will not have read the first thread for various reasons. I have to say my first reaction when reading the questions is "how were they destroyed?" I am not nit-picking ... how they were destroyed makes a huge difference to what the consequences would be. Were they assisinated or murdered; did they die as part of a Faerun wide epidemic; did they all die from the same reason ... I hope you can see what I mean. Most important of all ... do people pn Faerun know how they died? If I was going to give you a meaningful answer I'd need to know when they were destrpyed as well ... was it all at the same time, or were there big gaps between them. With these two questions answered I might be able to offer some help :) _____________________________________ *Puts on WizO hat* ... remember to be nice to each other people; remember two wrongs do not make a right; and remember the golden rule “It is ok to disagree with what someone has written; it is not ok to attack the person who wrote it. If you can't tell the difference then maybe you shouldn't make the post!"
Shodo Panda 04-23-04, 06:35 PM	points bigsister to this thread explaining how they died http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=196640&perpage=30&pagenumber=1 and this is the thread this one spawned off http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=222543&perpage=30&pagenumber=1
Lady Claransa Trent 04-23-04, 07:40 PM	I think one of the problems with the previous threads was that your DM was not actually looking for consequences, but for justification. Granted some of the posters clearly disagreed with the premise, but other posters offered realistic consequences and were insulted and belittled by your DM. I truly believe that in this situation there were be SEVERE consequences. First, Palm's entry into the Forgotten Realms, combined with his agressive actions would be viewed as a threat by the entire pantheon. Even deities opposed to Mystra, such as Bane, would be likely to band together against Palm. The reason I believe this is that a DR20 god with 93 levels is going to be viewed a huge competion to the god of tyranny. Before Palm, Bane had at least a hope that one day he could eventually destroy other deities, like Mystra. He doesn't have a chance against Palm, therefore would be willing to ally with others to remove this much greater threat. Then he can happily go back to hating Mystra, with at least a remote chance of eventually killing her, and the other gods. I don't this destroys your campaign, it just makes it much more difficult. Killing off three Chosen of a very powerful deity should have very difficult consequences. Also Mystra would stop at nothing to get her Chosen back. If this means she has act in a very agressive manner, and perhaps kill and sould bind several of Palm's high ranking followers, I think she would do this. She can call upon the remaining Chosen, as well as Halaster Blackcloak and other very, very powerful mages to accomplish this goal. Aligned deities, like Azuth (and likely therefore the Magister), Savras, Kelemvor, Oghma, Deneir, Milil, and Corellon Larethian (and therefore the entire Seldarine), would likely come to Mystra's aid, unless there is a good reason that you haven't yet presented as to why they wouldn't. I also believe (for the above mentioned reasons) that even Bane would be likely to help. He could likely compel Loviatar, Mask and Talona to aid him. Even Shar could become involved. As it was previously stated that one of Palm's reasons to keep the Chosen from Mystra was to force her to turn neutral, as he feels the deity of magic should be unbiased, the same logic could apply to Shar, who is evil, yet controls the Shadow Weave. If Bane was unable to compel Talona to aid him, it is likely that Shar could. That said, I don't think this means that your PCs are faced with an impossible situation. There are many ways to prevent a potential Armageddon. Palm could try to arrange a face-to-face meeting with Mystra. He could offer to aid her in taking over the Shadow Weave from Shar and return her Chosen to her. As hinted at in the FRCS, once Mystra took over the Shadow Weave, and its dark powers, her alignment would likely shift to neutral - achieving Palm's goal of establishing a neutral god of magic. As I previously stated in the old thread, I think your campaign is in danger of degenerating as you just run around killing off all powerful NPC's in the realms. However as I also said, this isn't the only possible outcome, and even if that's how it ends up, as long as your having fun it doesn't really matter. I hope you can take this as advice about consequences, and not respond the same way your DM did. You can use it or not, it's your choice, but there's no reason to attack people who offer opinions that don't fit your plan. "Those who insult or otherwise try to derail the topic, will be promptly reported." - that goes both ways, at least as far insulting behaviour goes. Good luck! :)
WizO_BigSister 04-23-04, 09:12 PM	Shodo one of the reasons I asked for these questions to be addressed rather than re-reading the old thread is that I knew lots of other people would ask the same question, and I wanted to leave all of the problems in the last threads behind ... not bring old flame wars over here. It would be incredibly useful for all concerned if we could have a little summary of the answers to those questions without having to read several pages of flame war.
Drax Alcronis 04-23-04, 09:46 PM	I can't and won't speak for the motives and planning of the DM, I am a player. Someone in another thread posted something I think applies here. Our campaign is homebrew that is based and set in the FR, but is quickly become a total homebrew world. I can see how more traditional FR players and DM would scoff at what has transpired in our games. That being the case, I think the suggestion that we pose our questions and such in the homebrew section is a good idea. I just talked with my DM--not hard to since we live in the same house and he agrees that the homebrew section is where these topics should have and will in the future be posted. Sorry for ruffling feathers. Peace, while it lasts.
Lady Claransa Trent 04-24-04, 01:44 AM	Hey Drax, I think the posting on the homebrew section is a good idea, however, please don't think I'm scoffing at your campaign and what has happened. I'm just trying to present realistic consequences to what has happened. I hope I don't sound like I'm mocking your campaign - I did point out what I perceive as some potential problems, but as I said they may not even become problems in your campaign. Regardless, as I keep saying as long as your having fun it doesn't matter what everyone else thinks. I do think consequences that will present difficult, but not impossible, problems for your campaign is a good thing, and will make it more fun in the end. Good luck! :)
Bloodtide_the_Red 04-24-04, 10:20 PM	Guess the most basic answer to "What would or should be the consequences to the FR if Khelben, Elminster, Storm Silverhand and The Simbul were Destroyed?" is nothing. Even if you could get all them together, and kill them all of in a half hour...they would be back by the end of the day. Little 'mundane' magic aside like clones, true resurection and wishes that at least a 100 folks each could use to bring each one of them right back.....Mystra could easly just pop in and do it. Even if you could somehow(though doubt it's possible without cheating) kill them forever. It wouln't matter all that much as Mystra would just appoint new Chosen. And not 1st level folks to 'bulid' up to power. First of all, theas folks would likey already exist..kept secret naturaly. Even though, there is nothing stopping Mystra from appointing Chosen when she need them. Pick a powerful arcane person that agrees to follow/worship Mystra and snap...new Chosen. Halaster would be a good example. And just for a tiny side note....your 'death of the Chosen' does not look too solid. Looks more like the DM just let you kill them....... BT
Slacker 04-25-04, 02:22 AM	I think a more interesting question would be; What if Khelban, Elminster, and The Simbul fell to madness? It's slowly been happening already. When you've lived for centuries, you watch as loved ones die while you never age. You no longer know why you do the right thing. I can see Khelban becoming a control freak over the future of Faerun. We'd have Moonstars openly warring against Harpers, Zhents, and any others that oppose their will. Elminster loses his last bit of sanity and hides away the world. He becomes invalid, incapable of either harming or helping the people of Toril. The Simbul gives in to her paranoia, launching attacks on Thay and other nations she believes are in league with the Red Wizards. Just some ideas anyway.
thalious 04-25-04, 03:14 AM	By the book and the immunities listed, the Chosen were not immune to Trap the Soul. Like I said, I and the group are homebrewing the world. We did not want those particular Chosen around. I planned the mission, the players played it and they managed to win. Check my Graveyard Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44927) for all the PCs and NPCs that have fallen IMC. I am not easy on the players.
roler 04-25-04, 03:57 AM	Okay I have calmed down a bit. This is YOUR campaign and I was a bit harsh with the nasty comments. Even though I think I did post some possible consequences. I know the realms pretty well. If there was an Uber-god such Palm most of the gods would work against him. Even if he was neutral. They teamed up against Gargauth at one point when he went too far. You are running a really EPIC game, so why not include the gods. It won't be as catastrophic as you think. If Palm uses his worshippers to do his bidding , so would the other gods. This list of gods most likely includes, Sleune, Oghma, Mystra, Finder, Kelemvor, Lathander, Helm & Bane. Yes Bane. He can side with enemies to overthrow a being that could into a worse tyrant than himself. His ego would let him do that. He IS an intellegent god after all. I mean why did they kill the Chosen? Most of the Chosen are good and the do good deeds. Except for Khelben. If they killed them to gain power for thmselves or their god than that is an evil act. Why did they kill the chosen of Bane. Not to stop him from doing evil, but to acquire power right? That act is pretty close to being evil there as well. If the nations see beings that are powerful enough to kill several chosens of two gods they will plot against these beings and possibly team up against them. Evil can work with good, look at the Tugian Horde campaign. The Zhents sent a 1000 or so orcs to help Azoun fight off the horselords. Sure they were meant as cannon fodder but they helped. Right? If Palm can affect the realms and his minions , then so catook the wrong god's power.n the other gods. Savras the god of diviners would have seen the attack on the Chosen and warned Mystra. She in turn would have warned her Chosen (aka children). The Chosen are kind of like a failsafe device for Toril. They keep the evil spellcasters in check from ripping it apart like Karsus almost did. I don't even think he was evil, just crazy and drunk with power. Like a typical gamer. he had a great idea, steal a gods power. He just just took the wrong god's power. It was a plan a typical gamer might have tried if he/she had the ability. It failed because it was not a well thought out plan. Which often happens. The Chosen are to keep the Phaerimm, Shades, Red Wizards ect, ect in check. Now that a bunch of them are dead what happens to Toril? That should be part of your Consequence. The world is in deep trouble because you killed its magical "antibodies". So, whacha think?
ywhtptgtfo 04-26-04, 01:25 AM	If you are adamant in keep on killing the chosens, you can proceed with roler's suggestions, which is the rise of the evil spellcasters. With Mystra's weakening in Palm's hand, Shar has gain a huge opportunity in dominating the sphere of magic and shouding the realms with darkness. At the same time, Talos and Cyric take this as the chance to steal Mystra's power (destruction and illusionary magic). This is also when Palm learns that his actions are foolish and have upsetted the balance. Huge magical battles will proceed and Palm will be caught completely off-guard by the Shadow Weave. He will then lay off his predation on Mystra and work with her and certain other deities to stop Shar, Cyric, and Talo's threat. (Start adventuring) In the end, Mystra reclaims her Weave and absorbs the Shadow Weave and becomes neutral. The balance is again achieved and Palmy is happy because Mystra is now neutral. Then they will kiss each other and live happily ever after. On the other hand, Shar will remain the bitter woman that she is and adds Palm to her very long list of enemies (i.e. next plan --> Shadow Ether Weave). Notes: 1. It will be a good idea if Palm's earlier actions are justified as part of Shar's machinations. 2. Shar must be strong and possess a lot of secret weapons, else the campaign cannot be too challenging. Since Shar is the goddess of secrets, it might be nice if you prepare a lot of surprises for your players. 3. It is up to you to choose what plots to use. The one above is just one of the logical storylines you can use.
Entaru 04-26-04, 02:33 AM	Eh.
Derren S. 04-26-04, 03:28 AM	Logical consequences: Mystra calls in her alies and kills high level Palm priets/chosen. Bane would push for destroying Palm and many neutral deities will follow because Palm upsetted the balance, even the enraged Mystra migh join. This leads to a godwar Palm will loose because he has no allies and as soon his followers are killed his DvR drop enough to be slayed by other gods. After that (or in the meantime) Thay and other evil groups will, now that the strongest defender of good are gone, increase their power base and set their "world-domination" plans in motion because no one can stop them now. That would mean that evil will become much stronger in the realms, especially Shar. PS: For those who don't know the chosen can't be brought back because their soul is destroyed (BoVD)
Ty Cobb 04-26-04, 03:42 AM	Originally posted by Entaru Wiz_OBigsister. I ask that you please put a stop to these spamming threads. They have been beaten to death. Please boycott this topic guys and I hope Wiz_O closes them. I donīt agree with you at all. First it is not on you to decide when a thread gets closed. Second, why do you attack other posters by asking for a boycott. If you donīt care, you do not have to reply to the thread. Third, have you ever heard of Freedom of Speech? Orginally posted by WizO_BigSister Shodo one of the reasons I asked for these questions to be addressed rather than re-reading the old thread is that I knew lots of other people would ask the same question, and I wanted to leave all of the problems in the last threads behind ... not bring old flame wars over here. It would be incredibly useful for all concerned if we could have a little summary of the answers to those questions without having to read several pages of flame war. This is exactly what I mean. Thank you.:)
thalious 04-26-04, 04:50 AM	Originally posted by ywhtptgtfo On the other hand, Shar will remain the bitter woman that she is and adds Palm to her very long list of enemies (i.e. next plan --> Shadow Ether Weave). Notes: 1. It will be a good idea if Palm's earlier actions are justified as part of Shar's machinations. 2. Shar must be strong and possess a lot of secret weapons, else the campaign cannot be too challenging. Since Shar is the goddess of secrets, it might be nice if you prepare a lot of surprises for your players. 3. It is up to you to choose what plots to use. The one above is just one of the logical storylines you can use. I like this suggestion very much. I am going to mill it over. I have purposely not had Shar make any moves that the players have noticed in order to keep her more of a surprise and also to allow me to learn more about her and her RP style. Yes, her being a God Secrets will certainly not go unused. Timing is everything. As of Tonight's session. From afar, Palm assisted (power of luck, bad luck to Orcus) his ally and friend Ratimics in a battle with Orcus that result in Orcus fleeing. I still don't see or plan to have ALL the Gods in the FR unite against Palm or any other God IMC.
WizO_BigSister 04-26-04, 10:32 PM	I have no intention of closing this thread. People are making useful suggestions, and discussing what could happen in a positive and constructive way. So to all those filling this thread was comments about how it will fail ... well it isn't failing :D So please stop spamming this thread with complaints ... thanks muchly :angel: btw requests to boycott any part of this site or any products made by the WotC are against the CoC. Please remember this :)
thalious 04-26-04, 11:30 PM	Cassitus had himself cloned tonight by talios, then had himself killed by Kaltrop, then Talios and Kaltrop went to Suzail and turned in Cassitus' body for the reward that was posted for his capture. The Royal Guard had a priest of Kelemvor determine that the body was Cassitus, since Cassitus a few months earlier had tried to collect on his own bounty by using a Similacrum of himself--which failed horribly, though Cassitus managed to escape. After the verification of Cassitus's Death, the party was paid 60,000 5K golds bars, which was half to posted reward--the other half was held by request from Clergy Mystra as a fine for Talios' part in the slaying of Chosen. Very crafty RP and spell usage by the player of talios and cassitus. Cassitus' soul has been united with his clone body, and Cassitus has taken to the seas in a long ship and he his now preying upon merchants and others along the sword coast. Talios is designing himself a submergable ship that can fly through the air as well. Annika is staying in Tilverton at the Temple of Palm and researching more spells. A Doppleganger Ur-Priest has joined up on Cassitus' Crew and has taken the identity of a Cleric of Umberlee in order to conceal his true nature and self. Dove Falconhand has been made aware of Cassitus' Scam and she is continuing to seek him, sadly for her, Cassitus recently gained a Ring of Mindblank from Artemis when Cassitus being a half-fiend casted Destruction to which Artemis failed his save. Last Dove knows, Cassitus was spotted in the City Athkatla. Urmlaspyr had 9000 followers of Ratimics peacefully move into town after negotiation with the city leaders, also it is hard to repel 5000 armed soldiers landing on the beach along with their families.
Entaru 04-27-04, 12:36 AM	Besides Palm being too closely affiliated with the PCs. Can we get the official stats on the PCs levels, PrCs, and stats? Cassitus has been killed by his own PCs, Dove, disintegrated by the Simbul, and had his body taken by Mystra, but he's still alive? But the Chosen aren't?....I still don't know how none of the Chosen's contingencies went off. Now Artemis is dead? Is your group scanning over various books and statblocks then trophy hunting well-known NPCs or something if they happen to carry the right magical items? I'm seriously rooting for High Prince Telemont to utterly destroy these PCs for Shar btw. Thus, I look forward to reading of their total demise in the PC graveyard thread...
Stryfe 04-27-04, 02:04 AM	I can't remember where, but it has been stated that El has contingencies pretaining to "soul removal". His body and soul are instanly taken to Spellhold, Safehold ???, anyways, his secret hidey-hole and reunited. Think it was in either the RotA or the ToT books. Therefore, El doesn't die and comes back, mad as all get out for the Simbul dying and eats Palm's toes one by one :cool:
Heron_Marked_Blade 04-27-04, 08:16 AM	Originally posted by Stryfe I can't remember where, but it has been stated that El has contingencies pretaining to "soul removal". His body and soul are instanly taken to Spellhold, Safehold ???, anyways, his secret hidey-hole and reunited. Think it was in either the RotA or the ToT books. Therefore, El doesn't die and comes back, mad as all get out for the Simbul dying and eats Palm's toes one by one :cool: Elminster's Evasion, off the top of my head. Found in FRCS as well as 3.5 PGtF.
ywhtptgtfo 04-27-04, 08:06 PM	If he likes, he probably can excuse the chosens' disappearance by saying Shar is indirectly and secretly involved. Maybe Shar trapped the chosens and created illusions such that they were killed by Palm's little kids?
thalious 04-27-04, 09:59 PM	I don't have cassitus's sheet here, it went home with the player. He is 21st level, Half-fiend/Drow Rogue 13th, Assassin 2nd, Outlaw 6. Palm is a PC, thus he is naturally associated closely with certain PCs. Keep in mind the Ratimics is a God who has been a long time friend of Palm. Shar will play her hand when the time is right. Perhaps certain Fallen Chosen will be involved in those plans. Perhaps Mystra and Shar saw past their differences earlier on and just have begun to bare fruit from the plans
thalious 05-08-04, 06:14 PM	Seth Wilcox L-E Human Male Monk 10th, Ranger 5th, Assassin 10th, Fighter 4th. Possessed willingly by Palm (a homebrew PC God IMC) using his Possess Mortal SA. Seth was slain by Phoenix a.k.a. a Mystra Avatar when he failed his save versus Implosion. Phoenix then Soul Binded Seth to insure that he did not return. Also she can use his soul to trade for the return of one of her Chosen. *This is just a summary of the battle, not a round by round account.* Drizzt Do'urden (NPC) Barb 2nd, Ranger 5th, Fighter 10th, Tempest 10th. Was slain in battle by Seth Wilcox when Allustriel and Drizzt found Seth in New Tilverton. They were seeking him in order to capture or kill him for his role in the deaths of Chosens of Mystra. Allustriel and Drizzt had Seth at a disadvantage early in the fight, but Seth made full use of feats such as Trip, Stunning fist, and Mantis Leap to stay alive. Seth caused Allustriels Contingency Teleport to go off when Seth dropped her to -3 after making a full attack upon her and hitting 3 of 4 times with his +6 Keen Speed Ninja-To. Drizzt now alone faced Seth. Seth Tripped then Stunned Drizzt and then hit him with each of his other attacks and hurt him badly, the next round Drizzt came out rage and fell dead. *This is just a summary of the battle, not a round by round account.* Drizzt's body is currently possessed by a Drow Priestess of Lolth who bought it from Seth for 10,000 Platnium, she plans to put the body to good use (sell to House Baenre or maybe ressurect and then sacrifice to Lolth) unless the PCs decide to retrieve him.
thalious 05-09-04, 06:06 AM	While sleeping and unaware, Half-Elf Male Fancy Feet Hogan (Paladin 11th, Fighter 2nd, Wizard 2nd, Bladesinger 10th, Duelist 2nd, Bladedancer 2nd) was beheaded in one swing from the Corrupted Hand of Erthanans' +5 Keen Sharpness Scimitar. Erthanan (Rogue 4th, Sorcerer 7th, Fighter 4th, Arcane Archer 10th, Order of Bow 2nd, Deepwood Sniper 3rd.) like Hogan was a worshipper of Ratimics, but he was possessed by the Goddess Shar (FR) and she made Erthanan kill Hogan in order to let Ratimics know who the boss really is. Then she mindraped him and has decided to keep him for herself. Alacia Alcronis (NPC Cohort) (Rogue 20th, Cleric 20th, Monk 7th, Shadow Dancer 10th.) who is the wife of the PC God Palm was tempted and converted willingly to Shar. She Killed Drax's top enchanter a Grey Elf Male Wizard 20th Loremaster 10th named Eldan Brightbow. Alacia was tired of being neglect by Palm and his now discovered affair with Kiaransalee. Erthanan just unlucky to fail his save versus Shar's Possess Mortal SA.