| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| thalious03-07-04, 09:35 PM | What would or should be the consequences to the FR if Khelben, Elminster, Storm Silverhand and The Simbul were Destroyed? |
| Wooly Rupert03-07-04, 10:17 PM | Post removed. I'll not help anyone who insults me for having a contrary opinion. |
| thalious03-07-04, 10:48 PM | Originally posted by Wooly Rupert All four: Mystra, if bringing them back to life wasn't an option, would likely elevate some new Chosen to replace them. Who would she choose to replace them, because IMC, all four have been destroyed by the PCs and NPCs and Mystra won't be able to bring them back to life or even wish for them back since their souls were destroyed after being trapped. |
| Wooly Rupert03-07-04, 11:22 PM | *shrugs* I dunno, I didn't think it thru that far. As I say, I think this premise quite unlikely... Hmm... Malchor Harpell would be a possibility... As would Gemidan Idogyr (I think that's his last name)... Those are the only ones that readily come to mind. |
| thalious03-07-04, 11:28 PM | Originally posted by Wooly Rupert *shrugs* I dunno, I didn't think it thru that far. As I say, I think this premise quite unlikely... I know that most FR lovers cringe at the idea of any of Greenwoods Sacred Cows getting axed, but that is what happened IMC and I am loving it. |
| Misyrr03-08-04, 01:37 AM | I'd say Hallaster Blackcloak would be a good candidate for a new Chosen of Mystra should there ever be need of one. |
| ElGrecoETAC03-08-04, 02:51 AM | Not to sound like a jerk, but isn't this something that maybe should have been planned/addressed prior to said killings? I mean... killing four Chosen of Mystra--that can't be a surprise to a DM. :rolleyes: It sounds to me like your PCs were really out to get them (for whatever reason), and you didn't really feel like stopping them (in fact, you said it's working out great) or even leaving a loophole for their foes' return. Thus, I'd veer away from the idea of "who would replace them." See how your Realms would be when a significant part of the balance is removed suddenly.... :smirk: Remember, being a Chosen is not just carrying a "kewl" label--it's being invested with some of Mystra's being. Killing those four kills some of Mystra, and it's not just assumed that she would be able to just crank out four more without weakening herself enough to make her vulnerable. Right off of the top of my head, an immediate response would be shutting off any of the PCs who practice Weave-based magic. I'd say the clergy of Mystra would be aligned against the PCs as well, but I can't see any dire danger coming from them if they can eliminate four of the most powerful beings in Faerun. The other posters offered very plausible side effects of those four being removed--especially Shadowdale and Aglarond falling swiftly. As for Waterdeep, considering the relationship the Elves had with Khelben, I would not be surprised if his death prompted Queen Amlaruil to shore up Waterdeep against further agression. Anyways... your ballgame. ;) |
| Cunning Linguist03-08-04, 03:43 AM | How about killing them with Shadow Weave magic items that also steals there soul? You would be sucking up there essens, and taking power away from mystra (Since Chosen have some part of mystras power). You can't raise them either then. In this case I see a nasty Avatar coming for the group of players who has taken them down.. |
| Monsoon2803-08-04, 04:07 AM | Elminster and Storm: Zhentil Keep would finally take over Shadowdale, most likely. They could then strengthen that and seriously threaten the other Dales. Gotta agree with this, considering Cormyr is in no condition to do anything about it. Waterdeep would survive, but the Moonstars would likely go independent, or even fall apart/join the Harper's depending on the strength of the rest of their leadership. Another option is that Laeral and the Moonstars might hunt down and try to assassinate your PC's. Simbul: correct me if i'm wrong, but I thought she had a clone?? Wouldn't this clone then activate and replace the original (though it would at a lower level.) Insuring that Aglarond still had its leader. As for New Chosen being selected, that's up to you really, but I'd leave the spots vacant for a little while until Mytra was certain she had very suitable candidates. Are your Player's playing Evil PC's? If so maybe an organization would try to recruit them, like the Zhentarim. Just my thoughts? |
| thalious03-08-04, 05:34 AM | Originally posted by Monsoon28 Are your Player's playing Evil PC's? If so maybe an organization would try to recruit them, like the Zhentarim. Just my thoughts? I am running a layered campaign. I have multiple players. One session the party is evil, the other is more good. The Zhentarim would have considered hiring them, but...... the other party has recently sacked Zhentil Keep along with the slaying of Scyllua and Fzoul, thus the Zhentarim is in a state of confusion at best. |
| thalious03-08-04, 05:39 AM | Originally posted by ElGrecoETAC Not to sound like a jerk, but isn't this something that maybe should have been planned/addressed prior to said killings? I mean... killing four Chosen of Mystra--that can't be a surprise to a DM. :rolleyes: Right off of the top of my head, an immediate response would be shutting off any of the PCs who practice Weave-based magic. I'd say the clergy of Mystra would be aligned against the PCs as well, but I can't see any dire danger coming from them if they can eliminate four of the most powerful beings in Faerun. Mystra did cut off the evil party from weave magic. They researched and found access to the Etherweave, thus bypassing Mystra. I let my players play the PCs how they want. I was not taken by surprise by the results, I am just asking people who have more FR knowledge than I what some consequences would or should be. I knew little of the FR until I bought the FRCS. What I have learned and read of Mystra, I and my players don't like her or her chosen, so....... it seems liked a Gimme for a plot hook. |
| Gez03-08-04, 06:26 AM | Originally posted by thalious What would or should be the consequences to the FR if Khelben, Elminster, Storm Silverhand and The Simbul were Destroyed? Half the people on these boards would reply, "Ha, it already happened in my campaign", and the other half would respond "No way, they're so powerful they can't be killed". |
| Amoun03-08-04, 10:45 AM | I somehow doubt that Mystra would cut off the murderers from the weave... if anything she would have made one of their spells targeted at her chosen fizzle... The reason behind this is simple, Mystra doesnt want people to go to the Shadow Weave, that would only grant Shar more power and clout. Meddling with magiks cast at the chosen would make sense but banning individuals because she doesnt like what they are doing is doubtful... she grew out of that phase... at least thats my humble opinion |
| trentlanthier03-08-04, 11:00 AM | I second Halaster (My personal favorite Epic mage in the realms. As for new chosen? I might beg to differ to say that she may become enough for Shar to move in and try and get a more "Neutral" god/dess of magic in their. Anyways don't let anyone tell you what can or can't happen in your Campaign after all Rule 0 is in effect. |
| Dawnspeaker03-08-04, 01:56 PM | On a side note about Halaster in Elminster in Hell he was made a Chosen by Mystra, just as a reference point. no details since we aren't suppose to go into those. |
| Kuje3103-08-04, 02:12 PM | Originally posted by Dawnspeaker On a side note about Halaster in Elminster in Hell he was made a Chosen by Mystra, just as a reference point. no details since we aren't suppose to go into those. Actually Ed has said repeatedly that he is NOT a Chosen. He isn't insane any more but he is most differently not a Chosen. This was just posted on another message board by Ed and his go between, earlier today in fact. 1. Halaster has been around for a LONG time, and for almost all of that time he’s been an enigma. Steven Schend and I pretty well agreed that he was only insane as long as he was in Undermountain, and it seems that ‘the new’ Mystra has freed him from the worst magical effects of its thrall, returning him to sanity. She did NOT make him a Chosen, but instead made a ‘separate peace’ with him, giving him the status of a free-willed agent (from time to time she’ll ask him to do something for her, with new spells or augmented powers as his reward or price, but she will do absolutely nothing to coerce him into service, nor look upon him unfavorably if he refuses). Whether he’ll become a threat to the wider Realms, or a ‘good guy,’ depends on him. Right at the moment, I personally have no plans for a Halaster novel, but it wouldn’t surprise me if the good folks at WotC are pondering this topic for some scribe’s pen. He is a perfect main character for a pull-out-the-stops spellhurling novel, after all. :} |
| Wooly Rupert03-08-04, 02:14 PM | Originally posted by Dawnspeaker On a side note about Halaster in Elminster in Hell he was made a Chosen by Mystra, just as a reference point. no details since we aren't suppose to go into those. Except Ed has since stated that Halaster is not a Chosen... |
| adrian03-08-04, 02:29 PM | thalious, i'm curious, what level/class are your guys and how did they kill them? |
| thalious03-08-04, 03:10 PM | Originally posted by adrian thalious, i'm curious, what level/class are your guys and how did they kill them? Long story..... I'll try to make it short and consise. The party who took out Elminster, Storm, and the Simbul were as follows. Talios Stoneleaf: Grey Elf: Wizard, Loremaster, Arcanist, TCL=25th level Talios is the Chosen of a PC god named Palm. Annika Toreme: Human: Wizard, Divine Mage (homebrew PrC) TCL= 25th Seth Wilcox: Human: Rogue, Ranger, Assassin TCL=24th Cassitus The Knife: Abyssal-Drow: Rogue, Fighter, Outlaw TCL= 20th Yuri The Drunk: Tiefling: Rogue, Ranger, Fighter, Outlaw, TCL=21st How they took them out, I shall post that part as I review my records. Elminster was greeted by the party with a Anti-Magic Ray that took out his staff, followed by a Quickend Dimensional Anchor cast by Talios. Annika delayed her action to prepare Dispel Magic to use for a counterspell if needed. Seth fired his +5 Hand Crossbow tipped with poison and hit Elminster, the bolt hurt him, but the poison was useless since EL was Chosen. Yuri and Cassitus fell upon Elminster as well. Elminster unable to cast spells or flee was hacked down and then Soul Binded by Annika. Storm Silverhand showed up late to defend her . She was hit by a Quickend Dimensional Anchor. At the sight of Elminsters' dead body, Storm attacked the party as well casting a message spell to get help from the Simbul. Storm Silverhand failed her save versus Trap the Soul cast by Annika. The Simbul showed up 1 round later and Disintegrated Yuri. Cassitus fled at that moment. Seth fired his Hand Crossbow and missed. Annika cast Quickend Silent Dimensional Anchor on the Simbul. Talios then used his Artifact called the Staff of Palm (item given to the PC by a homebrew God IMC) and casted a Heightend to 20th level Trap the Soul that the Simbul failed her save versus. Cassitus who returned to see the outcome was Soul Trapped by Annika as soon as she saw him. |
| thalious03-11-04, 06:01 PM | I am sure I have missed some details in the description given above, but that is basically how it went down actionwise. |
| Nimzz03-11-04, 08:27 PM | well i personally see shar stealing a march on mystra and would except to see alot more out of shade...i think that mystra hold go for halaster as a chosen but for other chosen she would be coppetting with shar for mages... for one thing Mystra and her chosen will become much more nueteral |
| TinManFan03-11-04, 08:47 PM | Well, I see someone (A Magistar or someone) Disjunctioning those Soul Bind stones and Mystra Ressurecting some VERY :censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored::censored: Chosen. However, if you don't want your PC's crying because someone did something sneaky to them (Be sure to glare at them at that point), remember there are other Evil organizations out there other than the Zents. The Red Wizards would be quite happy for applications! After which Szass Tzam, or however the hell you spell that ****ing lich's name would Trap the Souls of your guys's PC and munch on them quite slurpingly. Be sure to make lip smacking sounds when you describe that. (Remember, He's Epic, a chain Trap the Soul would be Nifty!) Also, remember that Mystra could pop up and start chucking those +5 Shuriken of Returning at your guys. I think she can chuck 8 a round. Now put some spell storing on those things and have them cast mean spells on your players and it's 1st level time again. I always hated Big Game NPC Hunts. Sometimes, I think they should make 2 kinds of stats for NPC. Happy Gamer Stats and Min Maxed "YOU THINK YOU CAN TOUCH ME?" stats |
| Monsoon2803-12-04, 02:03 AM | Why didn't Elminster just use Silver Fire then or Dispel magic/break enchantment of his own? Btw which versions did you use FRCS or the Epic level Handbook? You do know that at minimum, El could of Shapechanged into something big and bad with alot of AC and a gross BAB? Just curious is all, and you failed to mention how Khelben was taken out. As an aside, I think you might of been too generous with a staff that can heighten Trap the Soul to 20th and be used numerous times. But if it fits your campaign go ahead. Peace... |
| Mumm-Ra03-12-04, 07:25 AM | Why didn't El and simbul have spellturning effects on themselves? Why didn't they use silver fire to break through the dimensional anchor and amagic? Why didn't simbul use epic spells to make herself immune to all those dangerous spells and abilities like antimagic, trap the soul, temporal stasis, mord disjunction? An epic counterspell capable of counterspellign anything would have worked fine. Why didn't they have rings of counterspells and greater counterspells with trap the soul in it? Hehe had I played the chosen the way they are supposed to be played, your party wouldn't have stood a chance in hell. Having said that, I have no problem with killing chosen off, its just that it takes a much cleverer and powerful party to achieve it. But hey if it works for you, go for it! |
| Wooly Rupert03-12-04, 10:59 AM | Originally posted by Mumm-Ra Hehe had I played the chosen the way they are supposed to be played, your party wouldn't have stood a chance in hell. Having said that, I have no problem with killing chosen off, its just that it takes a much cleverer and powerful party to achieve it. I concur. All of these people have been around for centuries, and they know how to put up a fight... It should take more than a group of adventurers to lay any one of them low, much less several of them. |
| KrazyDave03-12-04, 11:00 AM | It doesn't matter HOW they were taken out (It's not your campaign afterall...) As far as what happens next? Well Storm DOES have a few more sisters out there- not to mention the "dead" one- she could prove a problem for the PC's if played properly. The main thing to remember- the game is for the PC's- so imho, others should be out for revenge, but don't stack the deck too much against them. You should make their lives very interesting because of this. For being cut off from the weave- I don't think that they should be- if Mystrya wanted to "baby" her chosen, then she should've stepped in sooner- perhaps she want's to convert the PC's to her cause instead of loosing them to Shar? Just some more points to think about |
| thalious03-12-04, 05:05 PM | I have played the chosen as epic characters using the FRCS stats as starting point, then I customized them and min/maxed them. The Chosen have more than once humbled the PCs and others IMC. It should be noted that IMC there are 3 new Gods. Each one is a retired character of Uber Levels. 2 are controlled by PCs, one is controlled by me. As DMing duties rotate, each DM uses their God as their Icon. I don't care to fully explain the system as it is experimental, heavyily roleplay based, and difficult to explain in text. PC God #1 is Divine Rank 20 He is known to mortals as Palm. Palm is a Grey Elf (came to Toril via Spelljamming) Wizard, Rogue, Monk, Fatespinner, Blood Magus, Assassin. His Alignment is Neutral. His domains are Death, Elf, Time, Fate, Luck, Magic, Knowledge. He is the founder of the Etherweave, which like the Shadow Weave is not subject to Mystra's Will. Palm has a longstanding and open hatred for Mystra and her alignment bias and Palm has vowed to force Mystra to become Neutral, give up her Domains concerning Magic, or destroy her outright. Palm has used his Power of Luck Salient Ability to give bad luck to Mystra's Chosen when they faced Talios, Annika, Yuri, Cassitus and Seth who are worshippers of Palm. As for Khelben..... he was attack directly be Palm, drained of all his essence and utterly destroyed. |
| ender03-12-04, 05:32 PM | Poor Chosen. Always getting picked on. :P Killings aside, there are many consequences of their deaths. The Shades, for example, would probably become more aggressive, since there are fewer Chosen to impede their plans. This could mean greater secret activity or outright war, depending on how you play the Shades in your campaign. The Thayans, if they are smart, will not invade Aglarond. Rather, they would take advantage of the Simbul's death by economically dominating the country. That way they can control the country, avoid messy wars and insurrections, and maintain their enclave system throughout the rest of Faerun. Don't forget, though, that the Chosen have a lot of friends who would be upset about their murders. The remaining five sisters, the Harpers, the Moonstars, the Simbul's apprentices, various archliches, baelnorns (including the Ssrinshee, wherever she is), watchghosts, and spectral harpists, a few former apprentices (such as Vangerdahast), the Knights of Myth Drannor, etc etc etc. Its a long list. No doubt any group that can kill three Chosen can handle the Knights of Myth Drannor, but all of these groups are very smart and have a lot of allies, and can easily make life very difficult for those who kill their friends. |
| Monsoon2803-13-04, 02:15 AM | Ok now there is to be conflict! From what's been said, Mystra would get involved since the PC are likely using the etherweave and not her weave. Secondly if Palm were to get directly involved and kill one of Mystra's chosen then it's VERY likely she is going to kill one Palm's Chosen (possiblely Talios?) Btw if power of divinity is faith-based how did Palm get so many followers in order to reach 20ranks? Doesn't really matter but i'm just curious. ;) |
| thalious03-13-04, 01:33 PM | While Mystra would love to take out Talios, she knows that doing such would start a full on War between the respective religions---a War she would likely lose. Khelben was taken out by Palm for entering and desecrating one of his Temples. As to Palm's DR of 20. He attained it through gaining worshippers, and through defeating others Gods and then taking a portion of their DR--Palm has done mostly the later. |
| mrmister03-13-04, 10:26 PM | "What would or should be the consequences to the FR if Khelben, Elminster, Storm Silverhand and The Simbul were Destroyed?" You'd no longer be beholden to WotC metaplots and Chosen munchkinism. Celebrate! In game terms, Evil would have a holiday. |
| thalious03-13-04, 11:19 PM | Originally posted by mrmister You'd no longer be beholden to WotC metaplots and Chosen munchkinism. Celebrate! In game terms, Evil would have a holiday. Evil is partying like it is the year 666. What to throw at the players next..... A Githyanki Invasion or a Drow uprising. |
| Alathayn03-14-04, 06:18 AM | Gith have only one char above level 16, Drow have lost they godess. How about a big bad Phaerim invasion? |
| Chosen0103-15-04, 04:55 AM | Since you’ve already utilized so much poetic license for your personal FR campaign, just make-up whatever consequences for your PCs’ actions. If you’re going to abide by what is plausible in FR canon, Mystra would have most likely destroyed your PCs and NPCs for killing her chosen. Originally posted by thalious I know that most FR lovers cringe at the idea of any of Greenwoods Sacred Cows getting axed, but that is what happened IMC and I am loving it. I hope you don’t try going into the Planescape forum saying you’ve killed one of their Sacred Cows (particularly, The Lady of Pain), they’re not as tolerant as people here in the FR boards. |
| thalious03-17-04, 03:46 PM | Originally posted by Chosen01 Since you’ve already utilized so much poetic license for your personal FR campaign, just make-up whatever consequences for your PCs’ actions. If you’re going to abide by what is plausible in FR canon, Mystra would have most likely destroyed your PCs and NPCs for killing her chosen. At some point, the PCs have to be able to defeat Mystra's Chosen IMO. I was was looking for ideas on what the people in the FR would do, think, react, which some people kindly provided. Opinion on whether or not it was right, done right, or even fair is of no concern to me. As for Mystra destroying the PCs and NPCs in question...... perhaps you did not read the whole thread. |
| TinManFan03-17-04, 05:48 PM | Just remember, she's a god of magic, so likely she knows tons of spells not just in FR. So if the can beat her chosen, fine. But then she gets her +5 Returning Shuriken with Keen, +1d6 of each element and the quad weapon spell on them. Oh, and for each attach, she chucks 4. Hey. Playing by the rules. |
| thalious03-17-04, 08:56 PM | Originally posted by TinManFan Just remember, she's a god of magic, so likely she knows tons of spells not just in FR. So if the can beat her chosen, fine. But then she gets her +5 Returning Shuriken with Keen, +1d6 of each element and the quad weapon spell on them. Oh, and for each attach, she chucks 4. Hey. Playing by the rules. She would be facing PC God #1 is Divine Rank 20 He is known to mortals as Palm. Palm is a Grey Elf (came to Toril via Spelljamming) Wizard, Rogue, Monk, Fatespinner, Blood Magus, Assassin. His Alignment is Neutral. His domains are Death, Elf, Time, Fate, Luck, Magic, Knowledge. This character would wipe the floor with Mystra IMO since he has 93 character levels along with his divine abilities. One of the main themes IMC is the Balancing of Magic that is taking place between the Gods and mortals alike. Part of this theme will be the conversion of Mystra to Neutral, destruction if she refuses, or her loss of station due to neglect---it really all depends on the roleplay of the players and the consequences of their actions or lack of them. |
| TinManFan03-17-04, 10:40 PM | Oh wow. You made a big bad guy. Oooh. Does that make you feel special? (I woulda put something else there, but it woulda been edited) Look. First off Quad Splat weapon = brokenness LOL. Have you seen those blasted Stars of hers?! Second, making an uber everything char is just not in the spirit of the game. What fun is it to know you can splat anything? If that's where you get your jollies, go play a PC/Console game and turn the cheat codes on. Personally I like playing a nice normal human (Well, ok, he's got a half dragon template) Wizard. It's fun, it has boundries and yeah, I still need to suck up to the big boys, but that promotes role playing. Can you say a big words like Role Playing? Doubt it. And remember, before he'd ever get that weave of his, she'd just cut him off from all magic. You did read that she can do that, right? More than likely, she'd just cut all the other gods off from magic and tell them to kill your very special little friend there and watch from the sidelines... (Occasionally throwing a few stars hehehe). Personally, I'd like that. That cosmology in FR needs some serious thinning out. |
| Monsoon2803-18-04, 04:43 AM | Originally posted by TinManFan Well aren't you special. I have a rubber ball. Would you like to try to hold it? Oh wow. You made a big bad guy. Oooh. Does that make you feel special? (I woulda put something else there, but it woulda been edited). :rofl: Now that you mention it, why should I be content to let my Dwarven Fighter remain a Lesser Deity all these years. I should have demanded everyone to worship ME and then started killing the entire pantheon...or at least those I didn't like. ;) Especially being a dwarf, it should be completely acceptable to meddle in the human pantheon without all of them getting upset! Sorry but for a thread on Consequences, killing a few chosen doesn't seem like much, when your talking about already killing numerous gods and starting a magic war with Mystra. It sounds to me like your worried about the spilt milk and not the fact the house is on fire. |
| TinManFan03-18-04, 12:05 PM | But you can't blackmail the entire pantheon with the loss of their powers and worshipers as effectively as Mystra can LOL. Sure the book says she hates doing that, but just skip that lil part of the paragraph. |
| roler03-18-04, 12:53 PM | I am surprised nobody has chimed in with how crackheaded this campaign sounds. "But if it fits into your campaign, go with it." Indeed. Alright some constructive stuff. If a god gets involved then Mystra and her allies would work together to take these guys down. If your group messed with the Zhents, then Bane would be working against them as well. They are screwed, or at least they should be. They bit off more than they can chew and they should probably bite it. They made too many enemies and using a god to aid them just lets the other gods get involved as well. This new god will should be toast along with the players. Shrug it happens. Sure it is a players game but if you let them get away with the impossible they will always expect to get everything they want. |
| roler03-18-04, 01:00 PM | Originally posted by mrmister "What would or should be the consequences to the FR if Khelben, Elminster, Storm Silverhand and The Simbul were Destroyed?" You'd no longer be beholden to WotC metaplots and Chosen munchkinism. Celebrate! In game terms, Evil would have a holiday. They go from one form of munchkinism to another in this game. Nothing to celebrate. |
| roler03-18-04, 01:06 PM | Originally posted by thalious While Mystra would love to take out Talios, she knows that doing such would start a full on War between the respective religions---a War she would likely lose. Khelben was taken out by Palm for entering and desecrating one of his Temples. As to Palm's DR of 20. He attained it through gaining worshippers, and through defeating others Gods and then taking a portion of their DR--Palm has done mostly the later. The other gods would most likely aid Mystra. They teamed up to smack down Gargauth. It is a possibility. Most gods like to deal with the god they know than the new crackheaded one that was devised by a player.:smirk: |
| Land Outcast03-18-04, 03:33 PM | IMO you are in all your right,:bow: . But, as roler said: If a god gets involved then Mystra and her allies would work together to take these guys down. :invasion: They would'nt let some fuzzy mortals and a God start putting all pantheon upright down, they would just hit them, and hit them,and hit them,and hit them,and hit them,and hit them,and hit them,and hit them... untill they were powder, because they know(they are gods:twitch: ) if some are destroyed, they follow. "Not all that is gold glitters nor all who wander are lost"---J.R.R. Tolkien |
| Mumm-Ra03-19-04, 01:18 PM | I am surprised nobody has chimed in with how crackheaded this campaign sounds. Ok. The campaign seems crackheaded. Btw I didnt laugh in such a long time when 'palm' was mentioned. Like..mrs palm? haha. Btw I gotta go. Mrs palm awaits. ROTFL |
| Roanth03-19-04, 02:22 PM | Originally posted by Mumm-Ra Ok. The campaign seems crackheaded. Btw I didnt laugh in such a long time when 'palm' was mentioned. Like..mrs palm? haha. Btw I gotta go. Mrs palm awaits. ROTFL ROFL |
| Wooly Rupert03-19-04, 03:09 PM | Originally posted by roler I am surprised nobody has chimed in with how crackheaded this campaign sounds. Sure it is a players game but if you let them get away with the impossible they will always expect to get everything they want. I thought it from the start, but was refraining from saying it. |
| ender03-19-04, 03:22 PM | Guys... I don't think any of this helps. There are a lot of crackheaded campaigns floating around on these boards, but people do not post them looking for us to poke fun at them. Thalious asked for constructive advice. Although now that you mention it... Chosen are pretty much crackheaded by their nature. If anyone runs a campaign that includes them as major players, things are bound to get out of hand pretty fast. That much raw power is difficult to deal with in any serious manner. |
| thalious03-19-04, 08:30 PM | Thank you to those who offered constructive input. (Edited for content by WizO Jedi.) |
| ender03-19-04, 09:11 PM | Ah, yes, this thread has completely degenerated. It was probably only a matter of time. |
| roler03-19-04, 09:13 PM | Originally posted by thalious Thank you to those who offered constructive input. (Continuity edit -- WizO Jedi) Uhhh, I did try to post some constructive input. The players shold be in for a really bad time. I don't try to kill my players but if they did something really foolish like attack Thay, destroy Evermeet or Kill Lloth then they would suffer for it. There is a reason none of the Uber-NPCs have not already done these things.Because the ramifications would be WAY too great. Meaning if El decided to wipe Lloth from the planes he would have to deal with all the :censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored::censored: off Lloth worshippers in Faerun. They would most likely unite to wipe his precious Shadowdale from the continent. Then they may see how working together can help them and may decide to start "branching out". They would adopt another god like Vaehrun, or maybe even Shar and cause alot of fuss on the surface world. All because El thought it was his duty to "Finally destroy that witch once and for all". That's a consequence. It's not nice or fun but it's pretty realistic. El did something dumb and people suffered for it. I think your PC went too far and should have to pay. I gave you a consequence. The gods would team up to take down your PCs and their pet godling. It may not be fun or nice but it is realistic. If you don't like it don't use it. The crackheaded thing was just my opinion. Everybody has some crackheaded stuff in their campaign. Even little crackheaded things like giving their PCs powerful items a little too soon or throwing in your own Quasi-Elminster here and there.:D It happens. I was surprised nobody said anything yet. I still say letting your players get away without any deaths ormajor personal ramifications is a bit cheap. It is a bad to precedent to set. They may think they can do this in every game. IMO there should be some restrictions. It allows the game to stay fresh and makes it alot more fun. Later. |
| Wooly Rupert03-19-04, 10:18 PM | Originally posted by thalious Thank you to those who offered constructive input. (Continuity edit -- WizO Jedi) :mad: :mad: THAT WAS ENTIRELY OUT OF LINE. :mad: :mad: I'm one who finds the premise of this thread unlikely, and yet I was the first to offer up constructive input. As for being part of the "Status Quo pack," as you put it... I am not part of any such "pack." Nor do I see the Chosen as "Sacred Cows" (again using your wording). The Chosen are not meant to be opponents to the PCs. That was not the intent of their creation. If, in the course of a novel or adventure published by WotC, one or more of the Chosen was slain in a believable manner, then I would accept that. I am one who believes that the iconic NPCs of the Realms -- be they Chosen, rulers, ranking Zhents, whatever -- should very rarely come into play as opponents for PCs to slay. Oppose, yes. Slay, no. A lot of these characters were designed to be quite powerful, and to far exceed the power of any PCs. In fact, in some of the older stuff, it says that you should adjust the levels of some of these guys to remain like 10 levels above that of the PCs. Also, under NO circumstances would I let a PC ascend to godhood. IMO, that would be quite munchy and not in keeping with the flavor of the Realms. That is obviously an opinion you do not share. Now, to quote your own sig: Originally posted by thalious DMs who whine about powergaming, min/maxing, and munchkins should just burn their books and dice and take up paint by numbers. Just because someone does not like playing the same way you do is no reason to insult them. I think that a lot of what you are referring to as the "Status Quo pack" are people who, like myself, prefer "roleplaying" as opposed to "rollplaying". That is a debate that has raged elsewhere for many years, and it's not worth getting into here. Do not insult me or anyone else because we do not like your style of play. :mad: |
| roler03-20-04, 12:52 AM | Well I did call his campaign crackheaded. Kinda. Sorta. I didn't like that he overlooked my constructive (I hope) advice. I don't mind a change in the status quo. I just wouldn't let the PCs do something big, dangerous and rather dumb and not get blasted for it. When you mess with the gods it usually turns messy. Hell AO might step in and try to rectify this before it gets out of hand. Villains and good guys overstep their bounds and they get their butts bit every so often. Sometimes they die for it. I think you should make things turn real bad and bloody for your PCs with only two of them living through the ordeal. Then maybe call the campaign a wrap. |
| WizO_Jedi03-20-04, 06:14 AM | Let's keep this thread civil, gang, shall we? |
| Monsoon2803-20-04, 01:13 PM | I was thinking the samething about Ao, while he lets all the gods have their own agendas, he is known for 'laying the smackdown' to excessive trouble makers (like Cyric). Now we're be told how Palm is going around killing gods, enforcing his will on other gods, etc. None of these gods will dare take on Palm, and somehow Ao is just letting this happen?? Of coarse, the way this compaign is going, Palm will kill Ao and become an Overgod. Like a few others here, I started with trying to be helpful, but I guess we all feel this campaign has just gone over the top, or as was put so eloquently Crackheaded. ;) I'm a fan of keeping Iconic characters in the background, for just this sort of reason. Thalious enjoy your campaign, its yours to do as you will, but if you hate so many iconic characters then why not just do a home brew world instead of FR? That way you can avoid all these 'annoying' gods and their chosen. Peace... |
| thalious03-20-04, 01:50 PM | Originally posted by Monsoon28 enjoy your campaign, its yours to do as you will, but if you hate so many iconic characters then why not just do a home brew world instead of FR? That way you can avoid all these 'annoying' gods and their chosen. Peace... I choose the FR because of the semi-detailed maps, town entries, and yes NPCs. My players LOVE going after the "establishment", which is making my efforts at planning adventures and plots very easy. To those who were offended by my last post...... I thanked those who offered contructive input, if you did not, perhaps you should examine your reasons for even posting in my thread in the 1st place. |
| Wooly Rupert03-20-04, 03:43 PM | Originally posted by thalious To those who were offended by my last post...... I thanked those who offered contructive input, if you did not, perhaps you should examine your reasons for even posting in my thread in the 1st place. Yeah, you thanked those who offered constructive input. I was the first to do so. But I felt the premise was unlikely and stated such. I was again the first to do so. Later, when other people said the same thing, they were attacked for it. Since I agreed with them, I was also attacked. You insulted those who think the premise of this thread unlikely. What I'm reading here, and I apologize if I'm wrong: if we don't agree with you, we can shut up. That is why I was offended, and continue to be offended. :mad: |
| ender03-20-04, 03:56 PM | Originally posted by thalious To those who were offended by my last post...... I thanked those who offered contructive input, if you did not, perhaps you should examine your reasons for even posting in my thread in the 1st place. thalious, any way you slice it your previous post was out of line. It is simply not acceptable to hurl epithets like meteor swarms. I reread the posts, and every single poster offered constructive criticism, building cases for what realistic consequences for such drastic killings would be. If you feel that the posters were not being constructive, say so. If you feel insulted, then state your case civilly. I defended you when I felt the focus was heading away from constructive input, but I am not willing to defend anyone who is going to write dismissive, rude, and vulgar posts. These forums belong to all of us, and we each get to have our say in a polite manner, regardless of whether it is "your" thread or not. |
| thalious03-20-04, 05:36 PM | Originally posted by Wooly Rupert You insulted those who think the premise of this thread unlikely. What I'm reading here, and I apologize if I'm wrong: if we don't agree with you, we can shut up. That was the message I was trying to send. :) Those who don't agree or support the premise of the thread should IMO stay away from the subject. I am not looking for constructive debate, I was just asking for consequences, not a bunch of running of the mouth about how unlikely or "crackheaded" it is. Edited for content by BigSister |
| ender03-20-04, 05:50 PM | Originally posted by thalious That was the message I was trying to send. :) Those who don't agree or support the premise of the thread should IMO stayaway from the subject. I am not looking for constructive debate... continuty edit by BigSister Then you should not post here, plain and simple. You asked for some possible consequences, and we gave you what we thought was most likely. If that's not what you want, then I don't know why you started the thread in the first place. |
| thalious03-20-04, 06:08 PM | Asking for consequences about a given set of actions and events does not equate to a invitation to insult my campaign or plots. Care to continue this pointless tirade, take it up over PM or e-mail. |
| Drax Alcronis03-20-04, 06:26 PM | Originally posted by thalious What would or should be the consequences to the FR if Khelben, Elminster, Storm Silverhand and The Simbul were Destroyed? Hmmm, seems to me that Thalious framed his question rather well, I understand why he took a dim view upon some posters in this thread that failed to correctly read the english language. Their ignorance, our pain. |
| Wooly Rupert03-20-04, 07:24 PM | Originally posted by Drax Alcronis Hmmm, seems to me that Thalious framed his question rather well, I understand why he took a dim view upon some posters in this thread that failed to correctly read the english language. Their ignorance, our pain. Taking a dim view is one thing. Being insulting is another matter. |
| thalious03-20-04, 07:27 PM | Originally posted by Wooly Rupert Taking a dim view is one thing. Being insulting is another matter. Wooly, Sorry if I insulted you, I don't think I targeted you specifically. |
| thalious03-20-04, 07:29 PM | Originally posted by ender thalious, any way you slice it your previous post was out of line. It is simply not acceptable to hurl epithets like meteor swarms. :rolleyes: |
| Gadodel03-20-04, 07:32 PM | Originally posted by thalious What would or should be the consequences to the FR if Khelben, Elminster, Storm Silverhand and The Simbul were Destroyed? Three assumptions: 1. Other Mortals-not Gods did them in. 2. Other well known NPC's led said assailants. 3. Other NPC's of repute died too. The Consequences: 1. A vast power vacuum will be created. 2. Cities and Nations alike will suffer from the Geopolitical Machinations of mid to upper level NPC's. 3. The losses of Shadowdale and presumptive losses for Zhentil Keep would restore the Balance. However, Mulmaster and Sembia would be quick to strike into the Dalelands. 4. Surviving Zulkirs would be busy regaining territory, Aglarond would be invaded but Rashemen would aid them to prevent Thay's ascension to Supermacy. 5. The Silver Marches would aid/protect Waterdeep as it dealt with the loss of Khelben. 6. The Elves would return in force to reclaim lands that are now being contested over by various human factions. 7. Tethyr would send a large force to protect Shadowdale, as would Cormyr...thus defeating Mulmaster and Sembia's machinations. 8. The Drow and Shades would unleash vast forces everywhere, but would be repelled by a not so surprising force: The Dwarves. 9. Casualties would reach around 250,000 dead and 1,000,000 wounded Faerun wide. 10. Mystra would fall from power and the portfolio of Magic would not be owned by any one Deity in particular... |
| Wooly Rupert03-20-04, 07:33 PM | Originally posted by thalious That was the message I was trying to send. :) Those who don't agree or support the premise of the thread should IMO stay the flying F away from the subject. I am not looking for constructive debate, I was just asking for consequences, not a bunch of running of the mouth about how unlikely or "crackheaded" it is. What's the point? The actions you described are not likely to happen. If you're going to ignore that, then ignore our suggestions -- after all, those are based on what would likely happen. So if you're discarding one likelihood, you might as well discard the other. You are obviously more than willing to ignore anything that isn't exactly how you want it, so why are you asking for the opinion of others? It obviously doesn't matter to you what we think... You'll receive no further help from me, that's for certain. I'll not help anyone who insults me for it. |
| Wooly Rupert03-20-04, 07:34 PM | Originally posted by thalious Wooly, Sorry if I insulted you, I don't think I targeted you specifically. Yes, you did. You insulted all who disagreed with your premise, and I was the first to do so. |
| Gadodel03-20-04, 07:37 PM | Whoa guys! We are talking about fictional characters getting wacked. We shouldn't be taking shots at one another. I don't D&D anymore, but I do like some of the plots and schemes to discuss. And you two are cool posters to plot and scheme with! :cool: |
| thalious03-20-04, 07:42 PM | Originally posted by Wooly Rupert Yes, you did. You insulted all who disagreed with your premise, and I was the first to do so. Please show me where I specifically named you as the target of my insult? I did quote you when I made a NOW edited post, but I was not directing the closing shot at you. Sorry you feel that way. Life goes on, for me at least. |
| thalious03-20-04, 07:46 PM | Originally posted by Gadodel Three assumptions: 1. Other Mortals-not Gods did them in. 2. Other well known NPC's led said assailants. 3. Other NPC's of repute died too. The Consequences: 1. A vast power vacuum will be created. 2. Cities and Nations alike will suffer from the Geopolitical Machinations of mid to upper level NPC's. 3. The losses of Shadowdale and presumptive losses for Zhentil Keep would restore the Balance. However, Mulmaster and Sembia would be quick to strike into the Dalelands. 4. Surviving Zulkirs would be busy regaining territory, Aglarond would be invaded but Rashemen would aid them to prevent Thay's ascension to Supermacy. 5. The Silver Marches would aid/protect Waterdeep as it dealt with the loss of Khelben. 6. The Elves would return in force to reclaim lands that are now being contested over by various human factions. 7. Tethyr would send a large force to protect Shadowdale, as would Cormyr...thus defeating Mulmaster and Sembia's machinations. 8. The Drow and Shades would unleash vast forces everywhere, but would be repelled by a not so surprising force: The Dwarves. 9. Casualties would reach around 250,000 dead and 1,000,000 wounded Faerun wide. 10. Mystra would fall from power and the portfolio of Magic would not be owned by any one Deity in particular... This is exactly the kind of response I was looking for. Thank you! I am currently thinking on how to implement consequences # 3, 4, 6. |
| Wooly Rupert03-20-04, 07:50 PM | Originally posted by thalious Please show me where I specifically named you as the target of my insult? I did quote you when I made a NOW edited post, but I was not directing the closing shot at you. Sorry you feel that way. Life goes on, for me at least. You insulted those who did not think your premise was likely. I was one of those. Thus, you insulted me. |
| thalious03-20-04, 08:09 PM | Threads like this makes me re-wish to have the option to have polls that posters must answer. Those answer one way will gain access, those who answer another will not get access. IMO, people who dont agree with the premise of a thread, especially when the premise is as simple as mine was, should not waste my time posting since.... chances are, their input will be unwelcomed or useless since they do not agree with the base premise. Oh well. |
| Gadodel03-20-04, 08:13 PM | Er...anyway...back on topic...;) I think that the hotbed of activity would be in The Dalelands. Considering 3 of the 4 killed have heavy ties there. There is one group that would fight to keep The Dales independent: The Knights of Myth Drannor. I would see them or their friends the spearhead of the Elven Return. |
| thalious03-20-04, 08:25 PM | Originally posted by Gadodel Er...anyway...back on topic...;) I think that the hotbed of activity would be in The Dalelands. Considering 3 of the 4 killed have heavy ties there. There is one group that would fight to keep The Dales independent: The Knights of Myth Drannor. I would see them or their friends the spearhead of the Elven Return. Is there any 3E info on the Knights of Myth Drannor? Noteable facts IMC. Alusair has recently been ressurected after being assassinated by a PC. Fzoul was destroyed during the last battle of Zhentil Keep---which led to the Zhentarim moving their main HQ to Darkhold in order to regroup and plan to retake the city from a party of Evil PCs that took it over. |
| Gadodel03-20-04, 08:33 PM | Sadly, 3E didn't do any write ups for TKofMD. Alusair was wacked and brought back eh? Cormyr was probably weakened for a time. Hmmm... Fzoul is gone? Is Bane weaker now or does he have a new High Tyrant of more Power? Hmmm...very interesting facts... |
| thalious03-20-04, 08:37 PM | Yeah, Alusair was nailed, but the PCs failed to plan for the fact that she would more than likely have friend who would try to bring her back. Fzoul, was destroyed by a destruction spell, he rolled a 1 on his save. Otherwise, he more than likely would have survived and maybe even beaten the party, but the dice were against him. |
| Gadodel03-20-04, 08:39 PM | To be honest...it saddens me to hear that Fzoul was wacked. He was such a good bad guy...no pun intended. The four of Mystra can die...that's ok. ;) I'd like to hear what Bane did to get back up to full prestige after Fzoul's death. |
| thalious03-20-04, 08:49 PM | Fzoul is still freshly destroyed. Thus far, Bane (me) is still deciding what to do about it. Bane is more angry about losing Zhentil Keep than losing Fzoul. Oh yeah, Scyllua was captured and slain by one of the evil PCs and an agent of Tiamat. Bane IMO would seriously considering trying to strike an alliance with Palm since his forces have succeeded in destroying more than a couple of Mystra Chosen. What do you think? |
| Gadodel03-20-04, 08:59 PM | Hmmm...yes as Bane you should be upset about loosing Zhentil Keep. Though, you should reassert your authority in Mulmaster. Knowing this, you should weed out the weak by sending them against your foes in the Dalelands. Meanwhile, strike up a relationship with any Red Wizard you can. Also, you may want to check out that very fine Goddess to your west: Shar. The Shades might be useful pawns. |
| thalious03-20-04, 09:12 PM | I got some plans to use the Shades, especially since Lord Shadow is still alive and leading them. What are the plans of the Shades? I suspect they would like move to a more "lively" and populated area at some point since the Anauroch Desert is rather.....devoid of conquerable subjects. The Red Wizards namely Szass Tamm are in the process of working out an alliance with the Victors of Zhentil Keep, if successful, Szass Tam will have a legion of his undead moved in as reinforcements. It should be noted, I run games for many players, parties, and not everything listed or mentioned were done by any one particular group of players or PCs. The FRCS gives a little info about Mulmaster, but not a lot to go on. Where else could I get some 3E on Mulmaster? |
| Gadodel03-20-04, 09:28 PM | Actually, for Mulmaster; you could use 2E sources and just update where necessary. Hmmm...Tam would be a very good replacement for Fzoul. Quite good. |
| thalious03-20-04, 09:33 PM | Originally posted by Gadodel Actually, for Mulmaster; you could use 2E sources and just update where necessary. Are 2E sources open for download on the Wizards site? |
| Gadodel03-20-04, 09:35 PM | Hmmm...that I don't know for sure. Oh...another thing to think about...The Shadow Thieves might be able to get their claws back into Waterdeep with the big distraction of Khelben's loss. |
| thalious03-20-04, 09:41 PM | Odd you should mention them. Currently, there is a Guild War brewing between the established rogues and those who are loyal to Palm's Order of Blood--the roguely arm of the religion. Would the Shadow Theives be inclined to try to move into a area where a war of sorts is about to break out? |
| Gadodel03-20-04, 09:51 PM | Absolutely. Look what they have lost in Amn. They need to regain or take some territory. |
| thalious03-20-04, 10:02 PM | Well, I am going to sit down with my Lord of Darkness book and give that group a good look and see how they would go about it and whom they would use. One reason they might be wary of entering the Guild War in waterdeep is because the Order of Blood are protected by Palmish Wizards, are publicly known to have played a role in the fall of Khelben. Would the Shadow Theives just move in, or would try to broker a deal? |
| Gadodel03-20-04, 10:06 PM | They would simply just move in. They would do it quietly. Perhaps have a legitimate business front until they get more folks in. They would most certainly make their name known again, probably by killing off lesser rogues of minor guilds at first. Then, go after someone big-just to let everyone know who is back in town. Remember, it was one of Khelben's relatives that chased The Shadow Thieves out. They may try to go after the group that took out Khelben just to show everyone who really has the power. |
| thalious03-20-04, 10:13 PM | Hmm, interesting ideas. If I could put together all the information about Palm and his organizations into text, I would send it to you to look over and compare to the Shadow Theives. Sadly, it would take me near as many years of play that the PC has been through in order for me to do it. I know little to none of the Shadow Theives. Palm as stated earlier, is a PC Greater God of Theives, Hand to Hand combat, Magic, and ambition. Do the Shadow Theives have any Divine support to back them up against Palm and his forces? |
| Gadodel03-20-04, 10:17 PM | Their Deities vary. It is a large organization. One of the largest in Faerun. Oh...what of the Moonstars and Harpers in the wake of this? I suspect their operations really suffered. Who would move in to fill in that problem? |
| thalious03-20-04, 10:31 PM | Khelben's wife now leads the Moonstars, but she is being tempted by evil offering her a chance at revenge. Is there any 3E info available on the Moonstars other than the blurb in the FRCS. The Harpers....... are shocked at the losses of the Chosen. Who is left among them that would have the power to keep them united---or as united as Harpers can be. Thus far, the Harpers are scouting out some new recruits (some good PCs IMC) to help bolster their now weakend forces. As to who might fill the gap left open at the losses of prominent good NPCs...... thus far, the players are ignoring the matter. :schemes: Which means, I get to fill the void. Just who, what and how to go about doing it. |
| Gadodel03-20-04, 11:39 PM | Well, this storyline might surely lure the Harpers from their "operating behind the scenes" approach. |
| roler03-21-04, 01:50 AM | Originally posted by thalious Fzoul is still freshly destroyed. Thus far, Bane (me) is still deciding what to do about it. Bane is more angry about losing Zhentil Keep than losing Fzoul. Oh yeah, Scyllua was captured and slain by one of the evil PCs and an agent of Tiamat. Bane IMO would seriously considering trying to strike an alliance with Palm since his forces have succeeded in destroying more than a couple of Mystra Chosen. What do you think? 1).This Palm has helped the PCs who sacked Zhentil Keep, right? Bane most likely would try and find a way to take this guy and his cronies out. 2).Bane's own Chosen was slain by the PCs (maybe with their gods help?) Bane is not that indecisive. He would mobilize anybody he could against this new threat. He would even ally with some of the other gods the PCs have messed with, like Mystra. 3). Three of Mystra's Chosen were killed. She would try and mobilize her other Chosen and Church to stop this threat. She may try and ally with Bane perhaps or ask gods of the good Pantheon to aid her. Seeing this new upstart god as a threat they would accept her offer (and Banes for that matter). 4). The Shades will try and mobilize against their weakened enemies. 5). Thay would throw an olive branch to the Church of Mystra or Bane since they would veiw these new upstarts as wild and chaotic. Deal with the Devil you know, right? 6).The Drow near the Dalelands might start their invasion of the Dales or the Moonsea (since the Zhents moved to Darkhold). 7). Evermeet might even come into the picture and take up sides with Mystra. Bad times for your PCs then. The true consequences are that your PCs bit off more than they could chew and did it in a very grandiose, typical cartoon villain(sorry) fashion. They attacked several chosen of multiple gods. These gods they messed with are not lightweights either. They are two of the biggest guns the Realms have. They were not even slick, or sly about it. Lots of people know who the PCs are and what they did right? They don't have a government, country, or army backing them do they? Even if they did they would still most likely bite it. Sorry. Rewarding your PCs for not thinking just will make them bad gamers in the long run. Unless they realize this is a once in a lifetime "fantasy campaign" that most likely will not be repeated. If they try this stuff with other DMs they might be in for a rude awakening. I understand their dislike for the established NPCs of the world but there are better although slower methods that they might have taken. |
| thalious03-21-04, 05:53 AM | Originally posted by roler 1).This Palm has helped the PCs who sacked Zhentil Keep, right? Bane most likely would try and find a way to take this guy and his cronies out. 2).Bane's own Chosen was slain by the PCs (maybe with their gods help?) Bane is not that indecisive. He would mobilize anybody he could against this new threat. He would even ally with some of the other gods the PCs have messed with, like Mystra. 3). Three of Mystra's Chosen were killed. She would try and mobilize her other Chosen and Church to stop this threat. She may try and ally with Bane perhaps or ask gods of the good Pantheon to aid her. Seeing this new upstart god as a threat they would accept her offer (and Banes for that matter). 4). The Shades will try and mobilize against their weakened enemies. 5). Thay would throw an olive branch to the Church of Mystra or Bane since they would veiw these new upstarts as wild and chaotic. Deal with the Devil you know, right? 6).The Drow near the Dalelands might start their invasion of the Dales or the Moonsea (since the Zhents moved to Darkhold). 7). Evermeet might even come into the picture and take up sides with Mystra. Bad times for your PCs then. By the Book. The PC Gods IMC would wipe the floor with the Gods of the Realms. Palm being the toughest. He is a 93rd level character. Classes are: Wizard, Rogue, Blood Magus, Fate Spinner, Assassin, and Monk. Keep in mind that my campaign is run on the idea of "Clash of the Titans". Each of my players has one of their favorite Uber Characters (characters they have played for over ten years that did not die) that survived an series of ascension quests to become gods. From there, each player builds up their religion by using Agents/Worshippers of their respective PC god. Thanks for the input. Lots of ideas to mill over. |
| Roanth03-22-04, 10:06 AM | "By the Book. The PC Gods IMC would wipe the floor with the Gods of the Realms. Palm being the toughest. He is a 93rd level character. Classes are: Wizard, Rogue, Blood Magus, Fate Spinner, Assassin, and Monk. " If that is the case, when does Ao step in or does he allow the pantheon and realms that he has very carefully set up to fall into chaos as a bunch of "outsiders" come in and destroy the balance that has existed in FR for centuries? I have no problem with you whacking important NPCs or even bringing in new deities to challenge for portfolios, but the heavy handed, all encompassing way you have done it makes it somewhat difficult for me to give advice as to what "consequences" would be. Reading through the posts these are the two basic themes I have picked up: 1. Uber PC-demi-gods are whacking iconic PCs and even gods left and right with little thought of consequences. 2. These PC's are protected by a deity (Palm) that can wipe the floor with remaining deities, thus giving a great sense of invulnerability to PC's. In my own humble opinion, speaking of PC "consequences" in this setting is specious. They know their patron can give them total immunity from divine retribution and feel free to continue their path of destruction (which I have no problem with). It seems to me that all the remaining FR groups who are standing in the PC's way are just going to be manuevering to determine which will be the last to fall. I think that some people have offered good advice as to what other deities to but this is always answered by other deities to weak, palm kill. If the deities of FR are powerless to act, what are NPC's going to do? Not trying to knock your DM'ing style or campaign, but if I was a PC in this campaign I might almost be getting bored by slaying iconic NPC's, etc. knowing that I am in very little real danger. That said here are my three possible consequences list. 1. Ao steps in and returns sanity to realms. 2. Actively agitate to have PC's turn on each other. They seem to be the only ones who can stop each other (puts Palm in interesting position of choosing one follower over another) 3. All remaining gods and mortal orginizations call truce to turn on this new threat to the realms. Creates a Homeric sized struggle between new and old forces. If palm and his followers win, new pantheon, new political map, new realms. Anyways, it does sound like a very interesting campaign. Good luck dealing with those power drunk PC's. Is there anywhere you post updates about what is going on? Would be interested to see how everything turns out. |
| Monsoon2803-22-04, 12:04 PM | Keep in mind that my campaign is run on the idea of "Clash of the Titans". Each of my players has one of their favorite Uber Characters 3. All remaining gods and mortal orginizations call truce to turn on this new threat to the realms. Creates a Homeric sized struggle between new and old forces. If palm and his followers win, new pantheon, new political map, new realms. "That's great, it starts with an earthquake, birds and snakes, an aeroplane and Lenny Bruce is not afraid. Eye of a hurricane, listen to yourself churn - world serves its own needs, dummy serve your own needs. Feed it off an aux speak, grunt, no, strength, Ladder start to clatter with fear fight down height. Wire in a fire, representing seven games, a government for hire and a combat site. Left of west and coming in a hurry with the furies breathing down your neck. Team by team reporters baffled, trumped, tethered cropped. Look at that low playing! Fine, then. Uh oh, overflow, population, common food, but it'll do. Save yourself, serve yourself. World serves its own needs, listen to your heart bleed dummy with the rapture and the revered and the right, right. You vitriolic, patriotic, slam, fight, bright light, feeling pretty psyched. It's the end of the world as we know it. It's the end of the world as we know it. It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel" - R.E.M. :D Sorry if there were ever a time, this would be the perfect campaign for this song. :smirk: |
| GothWulf03-23-04, 01:11 AM | Palm as stated earlier, is a PC Greater God of Theives, Hand to Hand combat, Magic, and ambition "By the Book. The PC Gods IMC would wipe the floor with the Gods of the Realms. Palm being the toughest. He is a 93rd level character. Classes are: Wizard, Rogue, Blood Magus, Fate Spinner, Assassin, and Monk. " Not complaining or anyhting, but since you mentioned "by the book" I felt I had to bring it up..... By the book, Palm can only be the god of Hand to Hand Combat, and Ambition <neither of which, IMO, are enough to get him enough worshippers to be a greater power> since, Im assuming, he belongs to the human pantheon.....by the rules, porfolios are not allowed to overlap....Mystra already holds the porfolio of Magic <and before you bring up that he made his own weave, so did Shar, and SHE doesnt have it either> and Mask holds the porfolio of Thieves <though again, Im assuming that the way he got it was by offing Mask>. Anyway, back to your question...... 1. Bane would simply bring Fazoul back to life if he decided he needed him that badly. <he was killed by a PC....therefore a god can reverse anything that happens to him> 2. Mystra would do the same to all her chosen for the same reasons....<same deal as for Fazoul....though perhapts not Khelban, since he was destroyed directly by another god> 3. Most of the religions of the realms, why maybe not joining forces, would be commanded to slay any followers of Palm on sight <with the possible exception of the followers of Cyric, who are too busy trying to kill each other and everyone else to bother with hunting down anyone in particular>, thus weakening him to where he was easy prey for the other gods. 4. Don't forget the Seldarine would more then likely become involved as well, him starting off as an elf and all. or....there's always MY personal favorite...... 5. Shar and Selune petition Lord AO to return all of their ancient power to them, and start the pantheon ALL over. <highly unlikely...but come on....SOMEONE has to admit that it would be VERY interesting to run :) > And before you think Im picking on your pet god, Im not....I have one of my own <posted in another thread>, its simply that everyone else has mostly focused on the "political ramifications" and I decided to take it to a "higer level" so to speak...<snicker>. Anyway, this is the reactions I see among the gods, IMHO. Wulfie |
| thalious03-23-04, 07:12 PM | IMC, I ruled that more than one God could hold the same Portfolio and or Domains as another God and then compete with the others in a bid for dominance. I am not running a Traditional FR campaign, my players did not want me to, not did I. We all agreed to how my campaign works and everyone is happy. Bane can't bring back the soul of one who is Soul Trapped, nor can Mystra. Thus their Chosen are out of the picture until they can manage to free them. The other religions are not going to stop their squabbling to deal with Palm, Arcane, or Ratimics, as they are too busy fighting among themselves. Bane is more likely to side with Palm in order to use the Etherweave, rather than give Lip Service to Mystra who is a good aligned God. This campaign is a carry over from a Homebrew campaign that I have been running since 2E and have transplanted into the FR via Spelljamming. Some of the characters involved here, namely, Palm, Arcane, and Ratimics are all over 10 years old. I admit, that if I were running a Traditonal FR campaign from scratch with all new characters, that none of this would be happening, but such is not the case. Why are people so opposed to my homebrewing of the FR? My players like it and have fun. Seems to me that is all that is required for a good night of D&D. |
| roler03-23-04, 08:39 PM | Originally posted by thalious The other religions are not going to stop their squabbling to deal with Palm, Arcane, or Ratimics, as they are too busy fighting among themselves. Bane is more likely to side with Palm in order to use the Etherweave, rather than give Lip Service to Mystra who is a good aligned God. Mortal followers and allies of Palm whacked one of Bane's CHOSEN and messed with a city that was the epicenter of his religion right?. So he is just going to side with the god who did this? He is the god of HATRED & TYRANNY not STUPIDITY & FOOLISHNESS. That isn't meant as a slam just a frank proclaimation of who Bane is and what he represents. He is THE god that WILL RULE the whole world someday. In his mind anyway. You work FOR him not WITH him. If you mess with his followers, like Cyric did, you get force fed your own "urination device".:smirk: Bane is a tough enemy. He would sooner side with Cyric, Gargauth, Mask or Mystra before he would work with someone who .... edited by Bigsister for content "holdings" on Toril. What does Bane give a damn about any "Etherweave"? Do you see him getting all bent out of shape over Shar and her dreaded "Shadow Weave"? He doesn't need that crutch. He's got a ton of worshippers. Lots of petty little tyrants, and some big ones as well. He "cares" when they die or lose faith. That's it. He is the king of tyrants. If someone powerful killed a evil local Sheriff's favorite wizard or prostitute, would that evil Sheriff side with the Ahole who did it or would he get some allies even unlikely ones to take this powerful upstart down? There should be a reckoning here. A very long lived, wise, intelligent god whose seen petty upstarts come and go against a petty upstart godling, who was just recently mortal. If you want your PCs to wipe the floor with everyone fine whatever. Bane just would not side with this godling. He would lose face with the whole Pantheon. Plus Ao should have gotten involved here somewhere IMO. |
| thalious03-24-04, 08:12 AM | roler, what are you posting about. Maybe you should re-read the thread. Palm has yet to act against Bane. Other PCs IMC were the ones who killed Fzoul and sacked Zhentil Keep. |
| Roanth03-24-04, 09:55 AM | I certainly have no problem with you running whatever type of campaign you enoy. However the post of the thread was "consequences". In my simple mind that means what would third parties do to gang up or punish the PCs who have altered the basic foundations FR is set on. However, whenever someone mentions an idea of how a FR deity or organization would act to make the PCs feel the "consequences" of their actions your response is either they are in league with Palm, scared of Palm because he could mop the floor with them, or dead and gone. In this setting, as I stated before, there are NO "consequences" in the punitive sense for the PCs. Simply put, they are untouchable. If "consequences" means how will the realms shake out politically so I know who my PC's will kill next, that is a different story. Maybe you should clarify what you are asking for |
| Anthor Del Niera03-25-04, 10:07 AM | Alright then, this seems to be an active thread, albiet one at risk of getting closed. Oh well. I feel an urgent need to take part, for one reason or another. Here we go, then. First of all, trap the soul does not stop the salient divine ability of life and death. So Mystra (or an ally) would bring the Chosen back. I feel that it was a mistake to have the players kill the Chosen in the first place, at least at the level that they are, but I understand that you perhaps went a bit easy on them. I understand that. Plot continuity and everything. Perhaps it would be wise of you to further explain your system of running. You mentioned in an early post that it was too complex to explain here, but I'd like you to give it a try. You're asking for a lot here, and I'm interested, so I think the posters here are owed that at least. Second point, then, is the level of this Palm individual. He is 93rd level and 20 divine rank. And intimidating other gods to fall under his will. Therefore he is already more powerful and disruptive than Cyric was when he came to trial, and it's fairly obvious how close that was. Ao would strip his powers, or simply slay him. Of this I can assure you. For better plot continuity, for as I said, I understand that you won't just kill off your players, I would have Palm stripped of all divine might, and most of his character levels. Also, what were the gods doing while a character was levelling to 93? Out of curiousity, again. Didn't they notice? They usually stop things like that. And if you're using giant epic rules, you might want to go by the book, and level gods up a little farther. You know, even the playing field. Make the game make a little more sense. Not a big deal. A third point. I had one just a moment ago, but I seem to have forgotten it. Not to worry. I'll just type until it comes, and it shall be magnificent. Trust me. I've thought this through. Oh. Yes. Palm would not want a Godswar either, I think. He's awfully powerful, but even if you don't make the other gods an appropriate power level, they'd band together to take him. It'd be kind of funny. Bane and Mystra, Cyric and Kelemvor. Shar and Selune, for that matter. Yes. Shar and Selune. Imagine that. Cute, huh? Even the Red Wizards wouldn't allow it to happen. Threatens their power too much. The players would find that they had no allies on Faerun, that the world had united against them. And I would be quite plainly appalled if you allowed them to win against odds like that. And when assassins of Cyric and Shar start killing off all of the worshippers of Palm, and Talona spreads blight through their lands, and even the Watchknights of Helm deny them protection, they will turn from their upstart god, and they will cry out for a new lord. Heh. And as for a last point, if you are asking for advice, don't simply tell people they are wrong. They're not. I've seen very little here that doesn't hold to the facts of the realms. Simply disregarding the vast majority of the advice with the counter, "No, that's not how it would happen. " isn't really a plausible way to get help. Great way to get flames, but not help. You have yet to insult me, perhaps because I haven't posted here. I'm more than happy to help you out, as long as you adhere to simple standards of decency. Thanks. |
| thalious03-25-04, 05:10 PM | I thought I gave some background on how my FR campaign came to be? It started way back in 2E and ended up on in the FR as a result from Spelljamming. Why didn't or don't the FR Gods gang up and destroy Palm? Or why doesn't AO? Easy answer, it would wreck part of the campaign, Palm is forbidden from directly acting against others, unless others act againt him or his followers first. Palm is only battling with Mystra--which I think pointed out a few posts ago, is okay and part of the Campaign since Palm and Mystra share common domains and interests. Palm does not wish to Destroy Mystra, he does however seek to drive her from good to neutrality, since Palm thinks that Mystra is too biased. Palm is True Neutral. AO (me) decided to give Palm a chance to assert dominance in the areas he now has as his domain and portfolio. I think that Palm is doing a good job. Not perfect, but what is? I did not start out to insult anyone. My first post was pretty simple. In hindsight I should have added more info about my campaign so others could a better idea of what kind of campaign I am running. "First of all, trap the soul does not stop the salient divine ability of life and death. So Mystra (or an ally) would bring the Chosen back. I feel that it was a mistake to have the players kill the Chosen in the first place, at least at the level that they are, but I understand that you perhaps went a bit easy on them. I understand that. Plot continuity and everything." Palm has the Death Domain, as well as the SA of Life and Death. He also is the current "owner" of the souls in question and since he is higher rank, lower ranked Gods can't just take them away from him on a whim. Looking back, I probably did not play the Chosen to their fullest, but in my defense, I have no personal history or real knowledge of the FR, other than having played an adventure or three there and reading a couple books with Drizz't and Cadderly. I bought the FRCS mainly because it had detailed Map, town entries, and NPCs that I could make easy use of IMC. "I would have Palm stripped of all divine might, and most of his character levels. Also, what were the gods doing while a character was levelling to 93? Out of curiousity, again. Didn't they notice? They usually stop things like that. And if you're using giant epic rules, you might want to go by the book, and level gods up a little farther. You know, even the playing field. Make the game make a little more sense. Not a big deal." Palm only came to Toril in the twilight of his Career. He is techinically retired from active play for obvious reasons (the character is nigh unbeatable, so are the other PC Gods). My players know how tough the characters are, and they know I could slay them, but it would be totally contrived. We made a deal, they could keep their favorite and most powerful characters, so long as they did not directly intefere with mortal affairs. Keep in mind that direct action means that the character cannot themself show up and face an enemy, but they can dispatch "agents" to do their bidding. Each Player is bulding up their own respective Religion around their God (former UBER PC). Each players has rolled up characters that are followers/worshippers of their respective Gods, some players have even made characters that worship a different PC god than there own. This is all an experiment, but thus far it works and I don't think any of the PCs are abusing the system. I am not a easy DM. Here is a link to my graveyard and the many PCs and NPCs that reside within. My graveyard (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44927) |
| Gadodel03-25-04, 06:14 PM | All I know, even though I no longer play D&D; (I play Modern et al) my character "Gadodel" would enjoy participating in this campaign. As a True Neutral sort of character, he would enjoy it a lot... |
| Anthor Del Niera03-25-04, 06:19 PM | A polite response. I approve. Ao is not the DM, the DM is above even him. I get your point, however. Thank you for at least admitting the things that you did, about perhaps not playing the Chosen to their maximum potential. This shows that you are at least aware of a problem. I'd be happy to suggest things in the future that will allow you to play ancient archmages. Things like deathward. And autocounterspells. Stuff like that. Not a big deal. What's done is done, and it would mess with plot continuity to go back. I still recommend levelling the gods to sane amounts to keep up, or having them "vested with Ao's might" to level them to an appropriate level. But that's not a big deal. Like I said, your players have lost an and all allies in the realms, or at least would have in my game. You didn't mention that Palm now has the souls. That changes things. Consider rebuilding most of the major NPCs in Faerun. The ones in the epic level handbook are a little weak, at least by epic standards. A lot weak, actually. Make them keep up. Szass Tam and Larloch may well team up in this case. Neither will interfere directly, at least not right away, but this killing spree threatens their very life. Larloch himself is an agent of Mystra, in many cases. I use the word agent loosely here. There is a section in the DMG about what to do when players get out of control. It isn't as handy when the players really are among the most powerful in the world, but there it is regardless. There are still Chosen of Mystra. Several sisters haven't died, and the Srinshee herself. Mystra will call on her. Agent versus agent, after all. It's only fair. Now is the time to pull out all the stops on the players. What they have done has dire, world shaking consequences. Mystra will start recruiting. Can you imagine what Larloch and Szass Tam would look like with a Chosen template? Albeit temporarily, but still... If they survive, either they are incredibly lucky and resourceful, or you have gone too easy on them. Don't forget all those elven high mages. And Shade Enclave, working with Faerun like they did against the phaerrim. Oh, correction. Your players can work with the phaerrim for a little while. And earn the enimity of the sharn, of course. But they can... |
| KrazyDave03-26-04, 08:35 AM | "This is suppose to be a Happy Occasion! Let's not bicker and argue 'bout who killed who..." After all the posts going back and forth on "why" things can't happen like they did in your realm. (That is funny...it IS your realm afterall) I've kinda lost sight of exactly what advice/ideas your looking for. Others, myself included, have posted ideas and "consequences" to your player's actions, but it doesn't seem like this is exactly what your looking for. If you could please define that more for me, then perhaps I can offer ideas for you to use as you see fit. Thanks for reading this, Dave :cool: |
| thalious03-26-04, 02:20 PM | KrazyDave, What am I looking for regarding advice now? Overall, I think the other posters have answered my questions in part or whole. One thing that strikes me as odd in some of the advice is that, opposing aligned Gods would work together against Palm, when Palm has only battled with Mystra--whom as I recall is the enemy of other Gods, i.e. Bane, Shar, Cyric, and others. Seriously, why would Szass Tam side with Mystra? Szass Tam stands to gain much more by siding with Palm IMO. Mystra is Good. Szass Tam is Evil. Palm is True Neutral. Seems to me on that axis alone, Szass Tam would more inclined to side with Palm. I know next to nothing about Larloch, so I am not sure what if anything Larloch would or would not do. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Anthor Del Niera, Why would the ALL the FR turn against PCs for what they did? I have to go, I shall return to answer more later. |
| Anthor Del Niera03-26-04, 02:41 PM | I feel that the vast, vast majority of the Realms would turn on the PCs because the PCs have become a threat. They are rather unpredictable, and obviously quite powerful. Killing off that many Chosen would make them considered among the most powerful individuals in the Realms. It's the same reason Szass Tam or Larloch never went and killed off Elminster. (Perhaps Szass would have a tough time of it, but we'll use 2e Larloch, cause he didn't then, either.) The best way to unite the masses is to throw a lion in the street, then calmly tell the people you will do away with it. Then do so. They will flock to your banner. The best way to win large portions of the Realms, for the Red Wizards, is to do away with the slayers of the Chosen. Hell, they're getting Aglarond in your game as it is. (Simbul? Dead? Ha.) Shade, again, has tons to gain from the confusion. They can set into motion the original plan to melt the High Ice, restoring the Anauroch to it's Netherese glory. Still they'll put forth a token effort (maybe sending a single prince, remember, tactics. Shades come when nobody is prepared...) to destroy your PCs. Zhents work same as the Red Wizards. As for the good groups, I think it's pretty obvious what's going on. |
| TinManFan03-26-04, 02:43 PM | Better to deal with the supplier of Magic you know than the one you don't. Plus seems to me you're whining cause you find out your guy might be ganged up on now and gee, isn't that just wrong... |
| thalious03-26-04, 03:20 PM | Originally posted by TinManFan Better to deal with the supplier of Magic you know than the one you don't. Plus seems to me you're whining cause you find out your guy might be ganged up on now and gee, isn't that just wrong... I am questioning the rationale for such unified action(s) on the part of the FR when such action(s) are not shown in their record of past events, where is a precendent for such action(s) on the part of the FR? As to your whining claim........ seems to me, your presence in this thread is serving no use, so why even bother posting here, are you that bored. |
| thalious03-26-04, 03:39 PM | Originally posted by Anthor Del Niera I feel that the vast, vast majority of the Realms would turn on the PCs because the PCs have become a threat. They are rather unpredictable, and obviously quite powerful. Killing off that many Chosen would make them considered among the most powerful individuals in the Realms. My PCs have shown a great amount of power and could be a threat to others (like many other FR NPCs who currently operate), unpredictability...... I think not. The PCs in queston here are operating in the open according to the edicts and proclamations of their God. I could see others being jealous of their success. Namely, Bane, Cyric, and many mortals who have sought to do the very things the PCs succeeded in accomplishing. Another thing to keep in mind, not everyone in the FR is favorably inclined to Mystra and might actually welcome Palm, his followers and the changes he proposes to make. The most powerful Mortal in the FR is Lord Shadow who I re-created at 45th level and he could IMO destroy the PC in question with little effort. Originally posted by Anthor Del Niera The best way to unite the masses is to throw a lion in the street, then calmly tell the people you will do away with it. Then do so. They will flock to your banner. The best way to win large portions of the Realms, for the Red Wizards, is to do away with the slayers of the Chosen. Hell, they're getting Aglarond in your game as it is. (Simbul? Dead? Ha.) Nice analogy, but not all people are threatend by the presence of a lion in the street. Why would the Red Wizards need to slay the PCs to gain Aglarond, when they could take them over anyways and not have to expend precious resources and personell chasing the PCs who have to date never acted against them? One of the PCs is planning on approaching Szass Tam to strike a alliance (yet to be RPed). Originally posted by Anthor Del Niera Shade, again, has tons to gain from the confusion. They can set into motion the original plan to melt the High Ice, restoring the Anauroch to it's Netherese glory. Still they'll put forth a token effort (maybe sending a single prince, remember, tactics. Shades come when nobody is prepared...) to destroy your PCs. I have already planned what Lord Shadow and the Shades are going to do (I shall not post, since some of players browse the boards.) Safe to say, the Shades should they succeed in the attaining their first goals will be a threat to many including the PCs. |
| Roanth03-26-04, 03:54 PM | I think the general disconnect between you (Thalious) and most of the people posting on this board is knowledge of the realms. I can see how from your objective perspective palm and his followers logically shouldn't pose a threat and could co-exist with others. I think the attitude for people who have been following the realms for years is that a new group coming to power in the manner your guys have would strike a note of discord amongst denizens of Realms who would want to see the threat eliminated. Your question on precedent for ganging up can't be answered because the realms historically have been rather insular in regards to para-dimensional interlopers like palm and his clan. The difference in your view as to how the realms would react and most other people's is going to be very different because of different realms perceptions. It is a subjective, rather than an objective, difference in point of view. Anyways, I am not sure that the bridge between realms verterans and yourself on the philosophy and nature of the realms can be bridged. You are probably better off going with your own instincts as to how things would play out, unless you are interested in how players who fundamentally view the realms differently then you would handle the situation (which I believe you have, over and over again). Given what you have stated in earlier posts it doesn't look like that type of advice will be very useful to you in the playing of your campaign. To restate my earlier post, my view is that realms people unite to destory the interloper palm! :angel: Once again that is a subjective viewpoint based on my experience in adventuring and DM'ing in the realms. |
| thalious03-26-04, 04:07 PM | Roanth, You are probably right about not being able to bridge the gap between the Status Quo supporters and my own campaign. I have noticed that many FR veterans seem to be very Status Quo oriented--makes me wonder if those same people are of a similiar political leaning. As a DM with players who tend to gnaw at the bit when given the chance to buck the establishment, creating adventures along those lines, the PCs going after the Chosens was inevitable and well recieved by the players. I do like hearing from the Veterans about the Realms, though I don't have to agree with what is suggested. |
| Anthor Del Niera03-26-04, 04:32 PM | It's not a matter of what is and isn't the status quo, it's a matter of what is and isn't logical. I have given my opinion on the matter, and have no desire to discuss this further. You inform us what an innovative game you are running, yet fall prey to the very same things that most new DMs do. You have invested your ego into this Palm individual, it appears, and for him to lose is unthinkable to you. And then you come to the boards, ask for help, and then disregard what nearly every single person tells you. Go with your gut, then. I'm in no position to tell you you're playing the game wrong. Hmm... I need a witty personal insult to go here. But I'm so lazy and uncreative that I can't think of any. Don't expect any more help from me. I doubt you'll get any from anyone else. I'm not going to start a flame war... I simply won't post in this thread anymore. BTW: Maybe your characters should go to Sigil next. I hear there's an opening for the Etherweave in the Lady of Pain's city... |
| TinManFan03-26-04, 04:34 PM | The reason us vets like the status quo is that qith things staying relatively the same, you can expect certain things to stay stable. If you go and kill this royal family, it'll plunge the whole area of such n such into a war. Without the stability, things won't be as you expect it AKA as the book you shelled out 40 bucks for is useless. With the kingdom in war, you'd have to expect the majority of the NPC's listed in the book would be busy fighting and stuff and not around to give you quests or sell you magical goodies. Also, it brings into concern the problems of day to day life in a war torn are. People usually only like to play in such an enviroment for so long until they decide to go stop the war by killing lotsa stuff or just going someplace else. Either decision leads to lots of useful NPC's getting swept under the mat. Now the reason people (liek me) have a problem with your campaign is that there are only about 10-15 people in the realms that people have read about that are presented in the books. Only those chars are the ones people know the most about and are comfortable playing. You've killed or are in the process of ferreting out, the majority of them and that strikes people as a "Someone I actually know how to role play got offed by people way too powerful. WTF?!" |
| adrian03-26-04, 04:51 PM | thalious, please don't take this as an insult, i'm just curious. how old are you? once again, this is not an insult, just that some of your comments make me feel you're young (your status quo comments make me feel you're somewhat anarchistic in your attitude) and on the other side you've played these charachters for 10 years. this comes from my curiosity about how young do people start to play this game more than anything else (i'we started playing it somewhat late in life). as for your question about the realms uniting, i'd say that the tuigan horde thing is a pretty good example of what people would do. |
| thalious03-26-04, 05:01 PM | Age is a frame mind. Am I anarchistic? Guilty. |
| Misyrr03-26-04, 05:35 PM | I'm not quite sure as to what this thread is really about... At first you asked a question: "What would or should be the consequences to the FR if Khelben, Elminster, Storm Silverhand and The Simbul were Destroyed?" Now it has become obvious that any answer you're given doesn't matter overly much since you've a super god supported by Ao, and his master (yourself) that simply makes any answer null. You're not playing in the Forgotten Realms, as far as I can tell, you're entirely re-creating it. Why not create your own setting from the get go? |
| adrian03-26-04, 05:39 PM | actualy, you're not. anarchists belive in abolishing the rules beacuse we don't realy need them to live normal lives, not breaking them because they don't like them. but that's another discussion. you call people "status quo people" as if that was a bad thing. none of us would play in the realms if we didn't like them. so it's natural nobody wants any drastic changes. when people want change, they go to another setting. |
| thalious03-26-04, 06:44 PM | Originally posted by Misyrr Now it has become obvious that any answer you're given doesn't matter overly much since you've a super god supported by Ao, and his master (yourself) that simply makes any answer null. You're not playing in the Forgotten Realms, as far as I can tell, you're entirely re-creating it. Why not create your own setting from the get go? I have accepted the suggestions from more than one poster here and taken to task the answers from some others. Thus far, it seems that many of the answers provided are cheap blanket solutions that would not stand up to a logical examination (in game terms). Yeah, I am re-creating the FR to suit my needs. Doesn't everyone to a degree? The reason I posted this in the first place was to get some opinions, not Witched at for letting my players slaughter some sacred cows. Read my first post. It was simply stated. There is more to the FR than the Chosen. |
| thalious03-26-04, 06:53 PM | Originally posted by adrian actualy, you're not. anarchists belive in abolishing the rules beacuse we don't realy need them to live normal lives, not breaking them because they don't like them. but that's another discussion. you call people "status quo people" as if that was a bad thing. none of us would play in the realms if we didn't like them. so it's natural nobody wants any drastic changes. when people want change, they go to another setting. I know some anarchists who would disagree with your opin regarding rules. Not only do we not need rules, but many of us don't like them either. IMO, the status quo is a vestige of too much comfort in ones surroundings, which is generally a bad thing. To the DMs: Don't your players get sick and tired of the same ol FR? Mine sure were. One player asked if the I was going to be like his old DM and stomp on their plans/fun by using the Chosen like the FBI. |
| Monsoon2803-26-04, 08:10 PM | Let's try to keep this civil... @Thalious Dude! It doesn't help when you start calling out names and allegations about political standings. I think this is part of what bothered Wooly, and Age is not a state of mind you have either been alive for 25years or you haven't, what age you act is a state of mind. either way let's address the issue. Part of the problem is that you've referenced different campaigns you are running in the same setting, so this god did this and that PC did that...problem is people probably thought you were referring to Palm or the original killers, and in fact were also talking about other gods (Raticus? and one other I believe) and at least to one other PC groups, this HAS caused confusion which is why some people think you are referring to Palm and his followers in killing Manshoon and whom ever else, and why they're talking about allegiances between Mystra and Bane. You need to clear up which gods and PC's did what before you state a incident. Secondly you say Palm is TN alignment, The definition of TN is Balance, while Mystra may of upset the balance of magic when midnight took over the portfolio (midnight being good) but this was resolved by Shar creating the Shadow Weave (her being evil), so Palm would now be upsetting the balance rather then correcting it. What he would be better suited for is in offerring a third option for those who are of like mind. (But then in my option, Azuth was already a good option for Neutrals such as myself). Lastly dude, I think you really needed to start (in this thread) with mentioning that your campaign was more of a 'Clash of the Titans' type of adventure, and with future combants you've really got to play NPC's to their fullest and average level party of 25 level characters taking out CR 39 npc's just doesn't fly and I think this is where some of the complaint stem from, not of any 'status quo' being upset. Hope this clarifies some things for everyone, and please let's try to avoid a Flame War (god, I can't believe I just said that, I use to be such a Anarchist). Peace... |
| adrian03-27-04, 03:26 AM | Originally posted by thalious I know some anarchists who would disagree with your opin regarding rules. Not only do we not need rules, but many of us don't like them either. yea, rules aren't liked because they are here. that doesn't meen that if they weren't actualy written you should't follow some of them, at least the rules of common sence. a book i read about anarchism asked a question in it's opening lines. if you were waiting to get in on a bus, and there wasn't anyone around to enforce the rule of waiting in line, would you push ahead or wait your turn to get on? guess which answer would come from an anarchyst. IMO, the status quo is a vestige of too much comfort in ones surroundings, which is generally a bad thing. [/B] could be. but it also could be a great thing for young radicals to rebel against. what would they rebel against if there wasn't a long standing system? against anarchy? To the DMs: Don't your players get sick and tired of the same ol FR? Mine sure were. One player asked if the I was going to be like his old DM and stomp on their plans/fun by using the Chosen like the FBI. [/B] why do you play in the realms then? as someone pointed out, this palm seems to be doing his best to upset the balance (that old status quo). why don't you change his alligment? |
| Nightingale 703-27-04, 12:16 PM | I'm going to try to tackle the issue here:First of all,Thallious you said you want to give the Realms a good stir.I respect that,even though I don't fully agree. The fact is that major things HAVE been going on in the Realms:The Dawn Cataclysm,the Time of Troubles,the Return of Shade,the Silence of Lolth,are major events that have drastically shaped Faerun.So you can't actually talk about "boring old Realms",now can you?The point is that whoever brought those changes got consequences coming along his choices. A prime example would be Cyric after he was deified in the end of Time of Troubles.He seems to be a good analog for Palm. He got powerful,he whacked several gods,he had agents,or avatars harass several mortal agents of other deities,and in the end he got JUDGED by the Council of the deities,invested with Ao's strength in order to contain him.Your Palm acted pretty much in a similar way.From what you told us he has offed several gods,and he offed Khelben for desecrating a temple of his(which I find a little far-fetched.You despoil a temple and the god offs you just like that?What are the offensive spells in the cleric's spell list for?) I admit I don't know much about the circumstances of Palm's actions,but killing gods that you don't agree with seems CE to me.If he is a god of Balance he could see that his acts along with the acts of his Chosen has thrown Toril in FAR greater turmoil than a good Goddess of Magic.Ao would be a litttle bit :censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored::censored: with his precious balanced creation coming upside down by a band of plane hopping gods and mortals. Having a player who rages against the Status Quo being a Chosen of a god of balance seems somewhat off,doesn't it? If I recall correctly you said that you don't want to unite Faerun against the PC's because that would mean the end of the campaign.Well there is not much any advise can do for this.This is metagaming plot immunity.I don't like it,but if you do,more power to you then,though that means you are ready to let your PCs do anything they want without fear of reprisal. What I'm seeing(and correct me if I'm wrong) is a group of rebellious players,that built evil characters with the only purpose to enforce a Royal Rumble in Faerun. One more thing I'm curious about is why the PCs wanted to kill the Chosen.I mean the characters,not the players mind you.Did they have a valid reason,or was it just a metagaming decision?The fact that Palm is at odds with Mystra is not the answer I believe,since not all the PCs are devoted to Palm. |
| thalious03-27-04, 06:54 PM | For the record, Palm has not slain any Gods. He has defeated a few though. I have to eat, I shall return and post more on this. |
| thalious03-28-04, 05:41 PM | All the PCs who took part in the destruction of Chosens of Mystra were worshippers of Palm. The PCs who took out Fzoul are not in question in this thread and are also not worshippers of Palm. Q. Did my rebellious PCs make evil character soley to slay Chosen. A. No, the characters in question were created to be played. Their Alignments range from Neutral to Chaotic Evil. The characters were played for close to two years before the battle with the Chosen happened. Q. Why do I play in the FR? A. I have answered this in previous posts. |
| Khalon04-08-04, 12:42 AM | Fear not! For mighty Khalon will poke them with his mighty Rod of Equalizing making everything ok again! :angel: That wass off topic, sorry. Just had to! |
| thalious04-16-04, 11:57 PM | One of the Slayers of Chosen, Yuri in particular was taken out by Dove Falconhand. The circumstances were simple enough. Yuri having a weakness for pretty women was lured out of the Tall Tales Tavern in New Tilverton on the presumption of paid "relations". After walking a few blocks, Dove casted hold monster and Yuri failed his save, upon which Dove Coup De Grace Yuri and then left town with his body. Now Dove shall bring retribution unto Cassitus and Annika. How would or should she go about doing this? |
| ywhtptgtfo04-18-04, 02:51 AM | To the DMs: Don't your players get sick and tired of the same ol FR? Mine sure were. One player asked if the I was going to be like his old DM and stomp on their plans/fun by using the Chosen like the FBI. I have never played PnP FR before, but I read a lot of the books regarding the plots and stuff. It is acceptable to stir up the realms and take out a few gods. However, the main issue would be how you are going to do it. I suppose one of the main reasons of why others criticize your ideas is that the plot is unrealistic and lacks style (at least in my opinion). I don't favour writing up plots with few variables being accounted for. Deities in your campaign probably need to have their own intrigues spinning to keep things less easy as you make it to be. Perhaps Shar could take a particular "interest" on Palm's Etherweave and the PC's. Since Palm is seriously affecting the balance, he is in danger of suffering total sanction unless he lays off his predation on Mystra and starts being a good boy. )No, Bane and Shar wouldn't like to miss the opportunity of bringing down a power that outclasses them by that much). Since this Palm is even more powerful than Corellon, there should be interesting things going on between him and the elven pantheon. To improve the balance of power, it is suggested that you drasticly boost the powers of all deities in the realms as others have said. As for your earlier opinion about Chosens being used as FBI, I believe it is only one way of DMing since there are just so many ways to keep PC's in line. Also, FR cannot be boring if DMing style is not repeated over and over again. P.S. How old are you? I only want the numerical response. - Regards |
| Lord Mortanius04-18-04, 05:35 AM | If Lord Shade is level 45, what about the original FR Pantheon? You essentially gave him power to rival Velsharoon! |
| thalious04-18-04, 02:16 PM | 29 years old. In general, I have not redone the stats on the Gods, since the PCs will not be doing direct battle with them. What about MC seems unrealistic and lacking stlye? |
| ywhtptgtfo04-19-04, 03:01 AM | It is just a personal preference. I would prefer not to have an almighty and unchallenged demi-overpower as the protagonists' divine ally. According to the present conditions, Mystra is pretty much helpless against this Palmy guy of yours. It might be better to either make your deity as power as her or heighten the power of the rest of the pantheon. A very close divine conflict might be something you'd like to have not complete pwnage. |
| Lady Claransa Trent04-19-04, 04:32 AM | I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for offering consequences here rather than praise for the campaign, but here's my 2cp anyway: 1 - I definitely do believe that the FR pantheon would band together. Granted there are severe alignment differences, and long standing rivalries between many of these deities. However, the good deities are long-sighted enough to realize that Palm is obviously a threat to their pantheon (I realize he may not kill them or attack them, but having a God in the pantheon who is so far beyond them IS a threat to their power, although maybe not to their personal safety), and would work with evil gods if necessary to stop this new, super-powerful god. Evil powers like Bane would rather work with Mystra, as much as he hates her, rather than "work with" Palm. It's unlikely Bane would ally with a god so much beyond his abilities or would do anything to aid such a God in becoming established in the Realms. No matter how much he despises Mystra, for the god of Tyranny to allow a 93rd level DR 20 god into "his" pantheon is unfathomable. At least with the "status quo" Bane has a chance of someday actually taking out his rivals. Not so with Palm. 2 - The various political forces of the Realms would likely act similarly to the deities. Even groups that despise Mystra and her Chosen are unlikely to want a group of 25th level PCs running around the Realms wreaking havoc (especially when they can put the smack down on CR 39 characters). In Elminster in Hell (I know we're not supposed to discuss novels, but I"m mentioning it as secondary info) we see Mystra getting NPCs like Halaster to help her. So I don't think it would be too unlikely to see NPCs like Tam or Larloch helping her out, especially for the right reward. 3 - While Palm may officially be "retired", his action of taking the gems with the Chosens' souls is an attack on Mystra. So if Mystra reacted by ensuring his Chosen got slain, I can't see how that would be out of line. If Palm started a new Godswar over it, Ao would step in. Granted the PCs in your group killed the Chosen without Palm, but he has now stepped in to ensure Mystra can't get them back. So Mystra retaliating is pretty reasonable. Anyway, those are some possible consequences. Some advice - I think you're way too insulting and defensive over criticism. You came to a FORGOTTEN REALMS board and talked about your campaign that is, to some extent at least, dismantling the Realms. You can claim it's just supporters of the status quo getting upset over your "revolutionary" approach to roleplaying. Rather, I think it's more of a case of fans of something seeing you destroying something they care about. I understand it's your campaign and you can run it anyway you see fit, but what kind of reaction did you really expect? Considering your approach to things you don't want to hear, I don't believe you could have seriously expected mature and respectful suggestions. You get what you give... I'm surprised you've never encountered this, but most DM's who have run campaigns like this (extremely high powered campaigns in established worlds who kill off iconic characters) end up seeing the campaigns run out of steam. It's only fun so long to wave your hand kill off every powerful NPC that you can find. Maybe you and your PCs haven't encountered this, or have managed to get past it, but it is a problem many of DMs have encountered, so I think that's where at least part of the criticism comes from. Regardless, it's your campaign, and if you and your friends are having fun, keep going the way you are. I know some players in my group would absolutely love your campaign while others would absolutely hate it. But I hope you can realize that posting on a FR board about your party running around changing the Realms in a big way is goind to cause you to get some negative feedback. Rise above it, don't respond with worse. It's not because these people are necessarily old conservatives supporting the "status quo" it's because you're being perceived as attacking something that many people care about. Your manner in dealing with criticism, or perceived criticism, only reinforces this perception. |
| Monsoon2804-19-04, 09:30 AM | Now Dove shall bring retribution unto Cassitus and Annika. How would or should she go about doing this? Do they still do Mercenary/Adventure type work? Dove could have one of the Harpers try to set up a meeting, offer them a job to go to XX and retrieve/kill XX only problem is that XX is an abush for Dove and some Harper's or whomever. If either of the above is a Cleric/Mage Divinations could spoil the ambush but is less likely to happen if they have not reason to question the mission. Of coarse you are your own best judge on what the char. will do. Simple plan but often the simple one's work out the best. |
| thalious04-20-04, 08:21 PM | After much thinking, some more gaming, and reading eye fulls from you, I have implemented the following consequences and plots. The actions of the PCs to date will be included too. Mystra, having lost Elminster, Khelben, The Simbul, and Storm Silverhand has acquiesed to Palm's demand to become neutral rather than engage in all out war with Palm, Ratimics, and Arcane that could have severely weakend her. As a result of this, Mystra has split herself so to speak into two divine entities. One being the everlasting Weave itself and the other is a DV 5 Material Plane Proxy/Queen named Phoenix that has set up residence in Yulash. This insures Mystra's survival as a Greater God and also allows her to act directly in the Realms since her other form is that of a Demi-God (by house rules, Demi-Gods may continue to inhabit and act feely in the realms of Mortals, while Lesser Gods on up must use agents and worshippers to act or be acting in direct representation of their domains/portfolio. Mystra considered trying to unite all of the other Gods of Faerun, but realized that such a battle would result in the destruction of Toril. Palm and Mystra have decided to show this new peace by sponsoring the reclaimation of Myth Drannor. Palm, having succeeded in his initial plan, has now turned his attention to assisting the forces of good in their upcoming battles versus evil namely the Reclaimation of Myth Drannor, also Palm has learned that an attack on his Chosen City of New Tilverton is being planned by Orcus and Lolth and he is busy preparing defenses. Ratimics is preparing to land a force of 9000 of his worshippers in Urmlaspyr to assert Ratimics presence in Sembia as well as establish trade relations with New Tilverton and assist in the brewing War between Yulash and the Port of Szass Tam (formerly Zhentil Keep). Arcane, is attempting to convince the Council of Dragons to have the entire race move away from the Material Plane in hopes the such a move will result in less proliferation of magic and magical items. Also, Arcane is very interested in helping a rogue Githyanki to destroy the Lich Queen as she offends his portfolio of Freedom. Cassitus, is assembling a crew of top notch seafarers to man his ship that he plans to use to rob merchants vessels and take female slaves. Annika has returned to New Tilverton to learn more spells and research the area of Myth Drannor in order to be better prepared for the upcoming Quest to Reclaim Myth Drannor. Yuri, is still dead, but a Doppleganger assumed his Identity and is continuing "Yuri's" crime spree and is looking for Cassitus in order to cash in on the 1 million GP bounty on his head for the various crimes he has been part of. Talios, is busy coordinating a Turf War between the Order of Blood (Palm's Rogues/Assassins Guild) and the Dockside Gang. Talios has cleared most of them out and is beginning to shift his attention to some problems arising from Undermountain since Halaster has abandoned it upon his being cured of his insanity and becoming a Chosen of Mystra to help fill the gap left by the departed Chosens. Szass Tam, is busy establishing a western base of operation in the Fallen Zhentil Keep now called the Port of Szass Tam of course. Once completed he shall unleash hordes of Undead to keep the nearby areas busy while he searches for another Orb of Dragon Control. :devil: Bane is consolidating his forces and has found another Chosen named Thirym Bolligard 25th Fighter along with making Manshoon Chosen as well. The Lich Queen plans to invade Elturel with in a month. Xill are snatching bodies from around the Everlund Area. An ogre mage named Malice is running an extremely successful and brutal sex slave operation in Calimport. Drow in Cormanthor are quietly strengthening their positions in response to news of the soon to come Quest to Retake Myth Drannor. |
| roler04-20-04, 10:52 PM | Originally posted by thalious also Palm has learned that an attack on his Chosen City of New Tilverton is being planned by Orcus and Lolth and he is busy preparing defenses. [/B] ???? If Palm knew of this attack on HIS Chosen and is preparing, then why couldn't Bane and Mystra do the same?:banghead: It makes no sense. If your PC god can interfere in the world or affect it to help his followers they should have been able to do the same thing. Plus if Mystras Chosen are soul trapped she would not rest until they were released. Some of them are her own children for gods sake!!!!! On a side note, Manshoon from what I remember doesn't really care about religion that much. That is why Fzoul was made a Chosen and not the M man. He is all about gaining power through his own tools and efforts. I don't think he would want to be anyones puppet, which is what he would see any Chosen as. IMO. |
| thalious04-21-04, 12:13 AM | Originally posted by roler ???? If Palm knew of this attack on HIS Chosen and is preparing, then why couldn't Bane and Mystra do the same?:banghead: It makes no sense. If your PC god can interfere in the world or affect it to help his followers they should have been able to do the same thing. Plus if Mystras Chosen are soul trapped she would not rest until they were released. Some of them are her own children for gods sake!!!!! On a side note, Manshoon from what I remember doesn't really care about religion that much. That is why Fzoul was made a Chosen and not the M man. He is all about gaining power through his own tools and efforts. I don't think he would want to be anyones puppet, which is what he would see any Chosen as. IMO. Palm learned of the attack on his city which is comprised of some very clever and intelligent agents through his Order of Blood Organization. The soul trapped Chosens souls were sold to other planar buyers and were consumed by the buyers per rules in the BoVD, thus Mystra has no choice but to bid farewell unto the fallen. Manshoon has many clones IMC. Whose to say the Chosen one is the "real" Manshoon. Would the Real Manshoon please stand up? I know that per the DDG a god is supposed to have foresight into the past an future regarding their domains and such. I and my players agreed to abandon that rule, since it made surprise and deception rather useless and unplayable. Can a FR campaign exist and be fun without having some Chosen of Mystra around? I and my group think that it can. |
| Nyat04-21-04, 12:37 AM | I don't see why Ao hasn't stepped in yet. And if Palm knows that Lolth and Orcus are planning on launching an assault why doesn't he just kill them? He is level 93 and DR 20. He should just smack them around if hes all that hes cracked up to be (which is why I don't think Ao would have allowd him in in the first place). And why would the prime be destroyed in a battle of the gods? were they planning on fighting on the prime? And if so, then why are the gods on drugs? And why is Mystra such a pansy? Your campaign makes my head hurt....I'm just going to pretend like I never read this thread.... |
| roler04-21-04, 01:14 AM | Originally posted by thalious Palm learned of the attack on his city which is comprised of some very clever and intelligent agents through his Order of Blood Organization. The soul trapped Chosens souls were sold to other planar buyers and were consumed by the buyers per rules in the BoVD, thus Mystra has no choice but to bid farewell unto the fallen. Manshoon has many clones IMC. Whose to say the Chosen one is the "real" Manshoon. Would the Real Manshoon please stand up? I know that per the DDG a god is supposed to have foresight into the past an future regarding their domains and such. I and my players agreed to abandon that rule, since it made surprise and deception rather useless and unplayable. Can a FR campaign exist and be fun without having some Chosen of Mystra around? I and my group think that it can. Sooooo freaking crackheaded! They are gods! Not PCs!!! They should know what is happening so it is difficult for PCs to do anything to depose those gods. THAT IS WHY THEY ARE CALLED GODS!!! They are NOT uber NPCs that are meant to be beaten down. This is not DragonBall Z or Rifts! It is the Realms. Status Quo does change but at a reasonable pace. Gods can plot against other gods and take their portfolio but no god will ever be allowed to become an ubergod like this Palm. Many gods good & evil, got together to depose Gargauth. I don't even think he was half the threat your Goku uhhh I mean Palm is. That's it I'm done. Please people, do not respond to anything this "DM" has to say. His response will just be more crackheaded drivel. He wants to let his players do things that don't make sense and then get away with it. |
| Lady Claransa Trent04-21-04, 02:03 AM | Originally posted by roler That's it I'm done. Please people, do not respond to anything this "DM" has to say. His response will just be more crackheaded drivel. He wants to let his players do things that don't make sense and then get away with it. I agree and disagree with this statement. I do think it's very unbalanced and unrealistic play, which will result in "consequences" for the game which is, in my view, getting way out of hand. But at the same time, it's his game, and if his players are still having fun, then it's fine. But in the long run I don't think will end up working, but I can't say that for sure. But I still don't think that any of so-called "consequences" are realistic, but like I just said, if they're all having fun, who cares. |
| thalious04-21-04, 08:34 AM | Originally posted by Nyat And if Palm knows that Lolth and Orcus are planning on launching an assault why doesn't he just kill them? He is level 93 and DR 20. He should just smack them around if hes all that hes cracked up to be (which is why I don't think Ao would have allowd him in in the first place). And why would the prime be destroyed in a battle of the gods? were they planning on fighting on the prime? And if so, then why are the gods on drugs? And why is Mystra such a pansy? Your campaign makes my head hurt....I'm just going to pretend like I never read this thread.... I am portraying Mystra like a Liberal Democrat--that should explain why she is such a pansy. Palm is 93rd level and DV 20, but he is not the highest or most powerful being in the game world. Asmodeus for example is 98th level, but DV 5 at the moment. Also, if you bothered to read the rest of the thread, the player of Palm in particular agreed to not overuse or abuse his position. Which IMO, he has not done yet. Roler, your continued complaints, insults, and whining are old. Click. Problem solved, at least for me. Lady Claransa Trent, unrealiatic....... unbalanced....... this a fantasy RPG. And it takes place in the FR! Realism and balance have not been trade marks of this setting ever. To all the naysayers: It is easy to complain and *itch about a campaign or plot that you are not part of. |
| Nyat04-21-04, 11:09 AM | I am portraying Mystra like a Liberal Democrat--that should explain why she is such a pansy. I take that as a personal insult, I don't come here and start insulting republicans, and I'm pretty sure we aren't supposed to talk about politics on this forum. So leave your political views out of this. If Asmodeus is so powerful, why hasn't he conquered everything yet? And why have still not answered my question, where is Ao and why hasn't he smacked down Palm yet? Since I doubt Ao would allow such a powerful god to disrupt everything in the first place, and how does Palm have such a high DR? When he came to Faerun did thousands of people just spontaneously decide to worship a god they had never heard of? In Faerun DR is based on the amount of followers you have, so where are all these followers? And where did they all come from? And why did Ao let Palm come in the first place (since Ao decides whether or not you can be a god in his domain)? |
| thalious04-21-04, 11:57 AM | Originally posted by Nyat I take that as a personal insult, I don't come here and start insulting republicans, and I'm pretty sure we aren't supposed to talk about politics on this forum. So leave your political views out of this. If Asmodeus is so powerful, why hasn't he conquered everything yet? And why have still not answered my question, where is Ao and why hasn't he smacked down Palm yet? Since I doubt Ao would allow such a powerful god to disrupt everything in the first place, and how does Palm have such a high DR? When he came to Faerun did thousands of people just spontaneously decide to worship a god they had never heard of? In Faerun DR is based on the amount of followers you have, so where are all these followers? And where did they all come from? And why did Ao let Palm come in the first place (since Ao decides whether or not you can be a god in his domain)? Insulted..... get over it. :rolleyes: I just said I am portrying Mystra as a Liberal Democrat.... which would explain why Mystra won't effectively fight back or defend her people. If that statement somehow includes you, tough feces. I am AO IMC, I enjoy how Palm is conducting himself, thus no smack down shall be coming in the way you want at this time. If you read the thread, you'd have the answers you seek regarding how Palm came to Toril and how he attained his DR. P.S. I have no love for the Republican Party either. |
| Lady Claransa Trent04-21-04, 12:39 PM | Originally posted by roler That's it I'm done. Please people, do not respond to anything this "DM" has to say. His response will just be more crackheaded drivel. He wants to let his players do things that don't make sense and then get away with it. I stand corrected Ruler. |
| Heron_Marked_Blade04-21-04, 01:11 PM | @ thalious: What exactly is the purpose of this thread, again? I lost sight of it back on the first page. It seems you asked what the consequences would or should be for the death of the Chosen, but it also seems that you already have a very definite idea of what would or should happen in the Realms, and none of it seems very "consequential". Chosen = dead pansies; Mystra = "Liberal Democrat...pansy"; Ao = uncaring pansy; rest of Toril's many pantheons = scared pansies. Who's left to bring consequences? In fact, it seems that not only can your PCs do no wrong, but with the support of a greater deity who takes a direct interest in their actions, they can do anything they want with impunity. Besides which, the fact that your Realms has taken an abrupt left turn from the established Realms renders your question "what would or should be the consequences to the FR" moot; what would happen in "the Realms" is completely different from what would happen in YOUR "Realms". I'm not saying you're doing things incorrectly from the point of view of playing D&D; it's your campaign, and if you're having fun then you're doing something right. But, quite honestly, what's happened in your campaign would never happen in the Realms: Ao uncaring? DR 20 deity migrating wholesale into Toril Realmspace with enough followers to keep him at DR 20, and subjugating/usurping other gods' portfolios/positions? Three of the most powerful Chosen of arguably the most powerful goddess on Toril defeated by incredibly basic tactics and spell combinations? Another powerful Chosen killed by the new deity directly for "defiling his temple" (which seems out of character for the Chosen in question, based on the extensive information we have on him)? The Chosens' deity (the greater goddess of magic) doing nothing about it? Again, it's useless to ask for advice because whatever advice you receive isn't going to work in your campaign. Everything's been so arbitrary and powerful NPCs/deities dismissed so cleanly out of hand that the only person who can give advice to you is yourself. But by bringing your campaign to the FR boards (particularly since your campaign really isn't based in the established Realms; it's a homebrew creation based on the Realms, as you admitted) and asking for advice, you're implicitly allowing people to critique your plot and changes. And they CAN critique you, with good reason, because you're running the Realms (except you're not running the Realms at all) in direct contradiction to the extensive information on the Realms published by Ed Greenwood and the Wizards of the Coast. You're running a homebrew campaign, and you have the freedom to do whatever you want. You have, and will continue to do whatever you want. More power to you. But this thread doesn't belong on the Forgotten Realms forum because it has nothing (apart from character names and perhaps the map of Faerun) to do with the Forgotten Realms. |
| Heron_Marked_Blade04-21-04, 01:12 PM | Originally posted by Lady Claransa Trent I stand corrected Ruler. :D Lol! |
| Nyat04-21-04, 01:25 PM | Originally posted by Heron_Marked_Blade @ thalious: What exactly is the purpose of this thread, again? I lost sight of it back on the first page. It seems you asked what the consequences would or should be for the death of the Chosen, but it also seems that you already have a very definite idea of what would or should happen in the Realms, and none of it seems very "consequential". Chosen = dead pansies; Mystra = "Liberal Democrat...pansy"; Ao = uncaring pansy; rest of Toril's many pantheons = scared pansies. Who's left to bring consequences? In fact, it seems that not only can your PCs do no wrong, but with the support of a greater deity who takes a direct interest in their actions, they can do anything they want with impunity. Besides which, the fact that your Realms has taken an abrupt left turn from the established Realms renders your question "what would or should be the consequences to the FR" moot; what would happen in "the Realms" is completely different from what would happen in YOUR "Realms". I'm not saying you're doing things incorrectly from the point of view of playing D&D; it's your campaign, and if you're having fun then you're doing something right. But, quite honestly, what's happened in your campaign would never happen in the Realms: Ao uncaring? DR 20 deity migrating wholesale into Toril Realmspace with enough followers to keep him at DR 20, and subjugating/usurping other gods' portfolios/positions? Three of the most powerful Chosen of arguably the most powerful goddess on Toril defeated by incredibly basic tactics and spell combinations? Another powerful Chosen killed by the new deity directly for "defiling his temple" (which seems out of character for the Chosen in question, based on the extensive information we have on him)? The Chosens' deity (the greater goddess of magic) doing nothing about it? Again, it's useless to ask for advice because whatever advice you receive isn't going to work in your campaign. Everything's been so arbitrary and powerful NPCs/deities dismissed so cleanly out of hand that the only person who can give advice to you is yourself. But by bringing your campaign to the FR boards (particularly since your campaign really isn't based in the established Realms; it's a homebrew creation based on the Realms, as you admitted) and asking for advice, you're implicitly allowing people to critique your plot and changes. And they CAN critique you, with good reason, because you're running the Realms (except you're not running the Realms at all) in direct contradiction to the extensive information on the Realms published by Ed Greenwood and the Wizards of the Coast. You're running a homebrew campaign, and you have the freedom to do whatever you want. You have, and will continue to do whatever you want. More power to you. But this thread doesn't belong on the Forgotten Realms forum because it has nothing (apart from character names and perhaps the map of Faerun) to do with the Forgotten Realms. I completely agree. Insulted..... get over it. I just said I am portrying Mystra as a Liberal Democrat.... which would explain why Mystra won't effectively fight back or defend her people. If that statement somehow includes you, tough feces. Wow, you are a complete pompous bastard. As I said, politics aren't supposed to be discussed on these boards, so STFU about it. |
| Anthor Del Niera04-21-04, 01:49 PM | Little concerned that this is becoming a flamewar, everyone, so let's play nice. I say this with no authority, but I think it's a valid suggestion regardless. If the thread is really that asinine, let's let it die. Thalios... dude. No. Bad. You're certainly not going to get any help by insulting the boardsfolk. Apologize. I mean, seriously... you're going to have to remove your ego from your campaign and listen to what people have to say. Just take it easy. Nyat, Heron... just let it go. You're understandably offended, but again, flamewar on the horizon, not worth fighting over. Now, as for something of actual value. Thalios, Mystra's children were killed and their souls were consumed for a dark ritual. Do you honestly think that she will capitulate? Have you ever met a mother? Absolutely not. It may be hopeless, as apparently you (Ao, from what I gather. That's an argument for another time) have no desire to aid her and stop this monstrosity. Something that doesn't make much sense to me- When the players die, how do they justify having another epic character that has the same motivations as the first? That seems odd to me. Where in the Realms do all of these epic people come from? There are so many flaws, plot nuances you either haven't bothered with or we aren't intelligent enough to comprehend. You've asked your question, you've recieved your answers. Tell you what. You aren't going to get anything but flaming from these boards. I'm on AIM fairly often; would you like to discuss this on instant messenger? There you can answer questions in a little more fast-paced format. I'll send the record of the chat to anyone that wants it, and we can let this little battle end. How does that sound? J |
| thalious04-21-04, 02:17 PM | R.I.P. ol thread. You lasted far longer than I expected. For all the griping and the few casks of burning oil tossed, mostly be me, this has been a rather active thread and despite reaching no agreement, I managed to benefit from the discourse and dialog. I have admitted more than once, that I begen my campaign having almost no knowledge or history with the FR. Only one of my players did. The game had to start somewhere and go somewhere. I readily admitted I am homebrewing/taking over the creative "rights" of the FR for the purposes of running MC. Some of my attempts at trying to portray various NPCs have failed. I refer to my lack of history with the FR. I am sorry if I insulted anyone in specific by describing my RPing of Mystra as a Liberal Democrat. My choosing of that terminology was intended to explain how Mystra has conducted herself, her policies, dispatching of agents, and response to threats when speaking with a American poster or one familiar with the American stlye of conversation and slang. I am an orator, not a writer, so I find it tough nearly impossible sometimes to convey ideas and thought as effectively as I can in person where tone of voice and body language can help to convey the ideas and thoughts. Thank you to those of you who provided non-sarcastic thoughtful input, ideas, and replies. I'll be posting my campaign updates elsewhere, since MC in the FR is going to completely homebrewed by me and and the other players as DM duties rotate. Come to think of it, I get to be a player this weekend. I know my character are heading to Sembia to assist Ratimics' Church in establishing a base of operations in Urmlaspyr. :devil: |
| WizO_BigSister04-21-04, 02:45 PM | It seems that despite numerous polite reminders (by people including a WizO) about courtesy and respect several participants in this thread have decided to continually break the Code of Conduct (http://www.wizards.com/coc) May I remind you one last time of the Golden Rule ... “It is ok to disagree with what someone has written; it is not ok to attack the person who wrote it. If you can't tell the difference then maybe you shouldn't make the post!" I have only just become aware of the continuing flame war on this thread, and the fact it was left unclosed is not an indication that the WizO team approve of threads like this ... it is a reflection of the fact WizOs simoly cannot read all the posts. I am closing this thread, and will be taking further actions in private. |