Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Uinidal 03-14-07, 03:06 AM	Ok it's been about two weeks since Cormyr is supposed to be on sale.Where i live i expect that it'll arrive in about a month so i want to ask if anyone has got the book and your opinion about it.
Panurg 03-14-07, 06:44 AM	It's an adventure, not a real Region Sourcebook, what can it be? Even if it is better than Mysteries of the Moonsea it is only half the fun a regional book could be. Nontheless I'll buy it, I'm a collector for 14 years and I wont stop now. Though I'm a bit unsatisfied about it. :ahem: And waiting for the Grand History of the Realms. :waits:
rolig 03-14-07, 09:14 AM	i was thinking of getting it... but they've had not gotten it in store yet. so i just got mysteries of the moonsea:D. If you have not got that book... get it... 1-18 lvl is better than 4-8 lvl;)
Lord Karsus 03-14-07, 10:16 AM	Nontheless I'll buy it, I'm a collector for 14 years and I wont stop now. Though I'm a bit unsatisfied about it. :ahem: -Don't do that. That gives the signal that you don't care what kind of garbage WotC puts in a book- you'll still buy it. That's not a good sign to give...
MarkusTay63 03-14-07, 10:19 AM	Psssst... Hey Karsus... Too late... THEY ALREADY KNOW!!! :bored:
Lord Karsus 03-14-07, 10:30 AM	-Apparently.
Panurg 03-14-07, 10:34 AM	I respect and understand your statement very much Lord Crazy, but what is the option? If no one buys these silly books, they will stop producing it. I think the time, is over when supplying players with new (and intersting) stuff was more a question of fun (or honor? stupid sound though it may fit somehow) and a hobby of the "designers". Look how many poeple nowadays work on a single book ... I know we should have principles, but I'm a self-loving RPG guy who starves for more pretty books for his shelf. :devil: No its not that bad, but you know ...
Uinidal 03-14-07, 12:47 PM	i If you have not got that book... get it... 1-18 lvl is better than 4-8 lvl;) Yeap i alraeady have that one.Contrary to many people i like it although it's very human oriented,other races might have problem to move around some of the cities. Anyway i started this post to get some opinions from people who have read Cormyr.I already knew from previous posts that there people who don't like pre-genereated adventures but i'm not one of them and most probably i'm gonna buy that book.As i have said again the problem is that on the average less books of the Realms are being printed in 3rd edition every year compared to the 2nd where there were more than 70 accesory books and more than 20 adventures.
Khaelieth 03-14-07, 01:05 PM	My first ever D&D campaign ended with a super adventure. I was Greyhawk/Forgotten Realms, meaning I switched between them with spells or something, and it was in Greyhawk. It was an experience I never will forget.
Renvale999 03-14-07, 01:21 PM	-Don't do that. That gives the signal that you don't care what kind of garbage WotC puts in a book- you'll still buy it. That's not a good sign to give... To be honest, alot of the stuff WOTC has put out hasn't been that bad. Mysteries of the Moonsea was different, but it wasn't garbage, not by a long shot. Magic of Incarnum...again different, but not a bad book. I think alot of people say things are garbage for the simple fact that they don't like something, which I think is wrong. There are some books that I won't pick up simply because I don't want them in my campaign world, whether that be FR, Eberron, Greyhawk or anything else that I'm running. But to call them garbage, well to be honest LK, that's insulting...alot of people put ALOT of effort into creating that book..I gamed with an editor of the Kingdom of Kalamar setting, I saw the amount of time and effort that goes into making a role-playng book..now you may not like the material...call if different, call it weird or simply say it doesn't fit on your gaming shelf, but don't call it garbage.
Khaelieth 03-14-07, 01:28 PM	I don't work amount determines whether somethings garbage or not. Take Sex Pistols as an example! They can't play, they can't sing, but the result is great! I've preordered Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave. They seem to be onto something with it I think. But another question; Does anyone know whether there will be a novel about it and whether it'll be canon lore? I certainly hope not.
The Heretic 03-14-07, 04:59 PM	My LGS says that the release date for this product is March 20th, and probably won't be in stores until the 21st.
Brenigin 03-14-07, 05:05 PM	The 3-adventure series is loosely linked to Paul Kemp's Shadow War trilogy. Book 1, Shadowbred, is out now. Very, very good. I am also keen to hear from anyone who's got their hands on Cormyr:TotW. I'm getting my players to start thinking about characters, and want to make sure they fit well with what's ahead.
Lord Karsus 03-14-07, 07:13 PM	But to call them garbage, well to be honest LK, that's insulting...alot of people put ALOT of effort into creating that book..I gamed with an editor of the Kingdom of Kalamar setting, I saw the amount of time and effort that goes into making a role-playng book..now you may not like the material...call if different, call it weird or simply say it doesn't fit on your gaming shelf, but don't call it garbage. -I'll say this much- the quality of the text of multiple FR products have been progressivley getting worse, in terms of the usefulness of the information they contain. If no one buys these silly books, they will stop producing it. -Well, that kinda is the point. If the your current legislative body is doing a bad job, do you vote for the same people, just because they already are the current legislators, so you figure, "Eh, why not..."? No, you vote for someone else, in hopes that they are elected. The closest thing we have to votes are our dollars. If we spend a lot, WotC says, "OK, we are doing something right. Full speed ahead." If we don't spend a lot, WotC says, "Hmm...Something is going wrong. Let's see what the problem is, and work out the kinks".
Daydreamer 03-15-07, 06:26 AM	Having said all that...this book might actually be good! Im curious it mentions that its part of a group of such 'super adventures' what are the other adventures that are a part of this series?
Uinidal 03-15-07, 06:44 AM	It has already being said the other two books are Shadodale:The Scouring of the Land and Anauroch:The Sundering of the World.If you go to the products page and check them though in the cover of Anauroch it says Anauroch:The Emire of Shade.Anyway these are the three books and judging by their titles they're going to be major realms events.There also threads about the other two books.
Krash 03-15-07, 07:05 AM	-I'll say this much- the quality of the text of multiple FR products have been progressively getting worse, in terms of the usefulness of the information they contain. I'd be interested to know which of the 'multiple FR products' you've read haven't provided useful information. -- George Krashos
Lord Karsus 03-15-07, 09:11 AM	I'd be interested to know which of the 'multiple FR products' you've read haven't provided useful information. -- George Krashos -In my opinion, both Mystery of the Moonsea and Dragons of Faerûn have both been lacking, though the latter to a much lesser degree. MotM, for the obvious reasons. DoF, I think, has too much information on the specific Dragons that are mentioned. I was really hoping that DoF was going to be more like a FR Draconomicon, talking about habits, ecology, and things like that. Unfortunatley for me, it didn't really go into too much depth about that. I bought it anyway, but I haven't really gotten a chance to use anything inside of it in a game, yet (items, information, etc.).
Daydreamer 03-15-07, 09:25 AM	Perhaps because the draconimicon already exists? The realease dates for these adventures, do the preceed cormyr? or are they further back ones. IM trying to look it up, but having trouble accesing d&ds main page for some reason.
Lord Karsus 03-15-07, 09:27 AM	Perhaps because the draconimicon already exists? -Not a 3e, FR specific one. Mind you, the 2e FR Draconomicon is old (as in FR Time), though a lot of the information, admittedly, probably hasn't changed. The realease dates for these adventures, do the preceed cormyr? or are they further back ones. -Cormyr is the first installment. Shadowdale is next, and Anauroch is the final part.
The Heretic 03-15-07, 10:20 AM	- DoF, I think, has too much information on the specific Dragons that are mentioned. I was really hoping that DoF was going to be more like a FR Draconomicon, talking about habits, ecology, and things like that. Unfortunatley for me, it didn't really go into too much depth about that. I bought it anyway, but I haven't really gotten a chance to use anything inside of it in a game, yet (items, information, etc.). LK, what about habits, ecology and "things like that" necessitates a 3E treatment? The material in the 2E Draconomicon is just as relevant now as it was then. I, for one, hate to buy the same product over and over again.
Evil-fuma 03-15-07, 05:24 PM	I Have to agree with LK here, the recent realms lore books have been slightly disappointing, and with this mega adventure, well, I don't run pre-made adventures so i probably wont buy any of them and am a little ticked off that I'm going to have to wait 9 months for any realms Source Books. Thank god for the new dragon articles and the columns on this website for at least providing us with some realms lore, i can only hope we get more source books next year and less adventures.
Brenigin 03-15-07, 05:30 PM	Well, I thought Dragons of Faerun was excellent, Mysteries of the Moonsea was useful and interesting, and I'm very excited about this adventure arc. I know that doesn't match the feelings of everyone here, but with more interesting Realms material popping up online for free, something in Dragon each month, and some excellent stuff going on in the novels department, I'm loving my Realms right now.
The ShapeLess One 03-15-07, 06:27 PM	I liked DoF, I did not care to much of MotM. I thought it was like the region souce books. It was not so I was dissapointed. I alos disliked it because I don't like premade adventures & my players dislike premade adventures. Though some of the info it gave was still useful not a complete waste of a book.
miscellany 03-15-07, 11:17 PM	My FLGS says the 20th is the date for this book to show up at their shop I hope it's soon 'cause Mr. Miscellany is going bonkers with the waiting for this book he wants to use it like ASAP for our Epic Campaign since he's got so much going on in Cormyr right now anways. Mizz Miscellany ps: Ladies, is it wrong to drool over...say...300 sets of bulging pectorals? Mr. Misc. says yes and as for me I say HELL NO BRING 'EM ON 300 was a great movie in sooooo many ways. :drool:
Lord Karsus 03-15-07, 11:32 PM	LK, what about habits, ecology and "things like that" necessitates a 3E treatment? The material in the 2E Draconomicon is just as relevant now as it was then. I, for one, hate to buy the same product over and over again. -Well, the 2e Draconomicon has 128 pages. Of those 128 pages, 39 are dedicated to pre-made adventures. So almost 1/3 of the book is adventure, leaving only 80 pages or so of Realmslore. -Anyway, I was hoping that Dragons of Faerûn would expand more upon the mythical Age of Dragons, when Dragons ruled over Faerûn. Maybe give it a little coverage a la Serpent Kingdoms. It didn't, no biggie. I was also hoping that DoF would elaborate more on the Draconic deities in Faerûn that Draconomicon briefly mentioned. Again, not too much was done here. Overall, DoF wasn't a horrible book. I just think that the emphsis on the book was off. While having the stats of a whole plethora of Dragons is all fine and good, I think the book would have been better off containing more information, rather than stats.
Daydreamer 03-16-07, 03:03 AM	I love to run published adventures, so ill probalby take a serious look at this...eventually im dmin eberron atm actually. I hope they release these adventurs very close together, otherwise ud have to shelve ur characters to wait for the next one.
KoboldSlayer 03-16-07, 10:02 AM	I recieved my copy of Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave yesterday. I have only scratched the surface of it, but so far it looks like a well-written adventure. It takes the players lots of places and provides a reason for doing so. It also provides infomation relevant to running an adventure in the region, particularly a map of, and some detailed information on, the city of Wheloon. If you're looking for it for an adventure to run to spring-board a campaign, this looks like a really good resource. If you're looking for it as an in-depth sourcebook for Cormyr in general, this is not it. For my part, I love to run the published adventures, as I don't have nearly the time required to write my own between other obligations. And I'm very pleased that Wizards has published this excellent product with plenty of adventure and just enough source material to make it work. Thanks, Wizards!
Uinidal 03-16-07, 01:17 PM	Cool.At last an answer.Please man if you wish when you take a better look i'd like to have your opinion again.I hope this one it's not like Pool of Radiance which was totaly hack n' slash but has some plot as well.
Lord Karsus 03-16-07, 02:16 PM	I hope this one it's not like Pool of Radiance which was totaly hack n' slash but has some plot as well. -Well, being as that the storyline is going to span three books, and that it ties into the Twilight War trilogy, I'd say it's a little more advanced that pure 'Hack-and-Slash'.
Zsych 03-17-07, 07:28 AM	The name sounds very suspicious. I'm not sure I'd ever write a book with something like 'the tearing of the Weave' in the name. A summary of the ideas in it would be nice btw :)
miscellany 03-17-07, 09:39 PM	Just called my FLGS and they are saying late next week or possibly the one after....DRAT I can't wait any longer! :/
createvmind 03-18-07, 11:47 AM	TTotW combined with The Shadow War trilogy is pretty much all you need to flesh out any campaign within the general region. I get the sense that LK likes to immerse himself in the finer details of events and locations as do I but I doubt WoTC is going to push products in that direction with their market base getting younger IMHO. We are the minority now, the majority want to be pointed in a direction to commence with the hacking and slashing, likely uncaring of the local flora and fauna that get obliterated in the process. I too am a collector of the products now and trust me having well over 100 faerun novels alone I can vouch for some pretty "NOT GOOG" products being put out. The nature of the beast it seems, I just hope they don't go the route of White wolf and say "Hey ummm we're just going to do everything over, thanks for buying all our previous products but were not using them anymore." I will never buy another vampire book again after the "Gehenna" fiasco.
ClobberinTime 03-18-07, 04:25 PM	Not having the book, but having read the stuff on the Web site, it looks like the 'Tearing of the Weave' part was suitably small for 4th to 8th level characters. I need to take a look at this book before I will buy it, I am trying to be more picky about what I buy these days, Ravenloft has sat on my shelf for weeks and weeks as I obsess over where to put it in the realms. Personally I really dug DoF, it actually forced me to buy a copy of the Draconomicon, 3.5 ed, which is also a great book. The rules in there add alot to any BBEBG not just a dragon. To me things don't come alive unless they are sufficiently detailed. So I really liked the detailed accounts of the dragons, their history etc... Things like they started doing with the names of the magic items in that book give things alot of flavor... Anyways, i just hope I can be strong and exercise some judgement when I see this at the book store.
Lord Karsus 03-18-07, 11:48 PM	I get the sense that LK likes to immerse himself in the finer details of events and locations as do I but I doubt WoTC is going to push products in that direction with their market base getting younger IMHO. We are the minority now, the majority want to be pointed in a direction to commence with the hacking and slashing, likely uncaring of the local flora and fauna that get obliterated in the process. -Maybe they will all learn, one day...One day... Personally I really dug DoF, it actually forced me to buy a copy of the Draconomicon, 3.5 ed, which is also a great book. The rules in there add alot to any BBEBG not just a dragon. -See, I did it the other way around (bought Draconomcon a while ago), and I think that is one of the main reasons I wasn't that thrilled with DoF. I was expecting a Draconomicon, FR-Style, and DoF wasn't exactly that.
miscellany 03-19-07, 02:02 AM	We are the minority now, ...and if we're keeping our facts straight, we were the minority then too. Let us not become so enamored of how doggedly we bear our great crosses that we trick ourselves into telling tales of carrying them uphill both ways...after all, that wouldn't be true. ;)
Stigger 03-19-07, 02:24 AM	Don't even want to think about it heading the way of the entire WoD Apocalypse/Gehenna/Ascension route... As to retrospect coloring our view of the past... it tends to always be better back in the days viewed through nostalgia when it was all fresh and new. Hard to beat a first impression really. I preferred a lot of 2e personally, fluff wise, but I never got all that into it because of the ruleset and happily chucked it for 3.x when that came to be. Which was good since it was at about the same time that WW and the WoD started to go to hell in a handbasket. As to Cormyr... went to look for it today, but it hadn't come in yet. Picked up the Magic Item Compendium though, and am so far really very pleased with it. Much better and far more useful than I was expecting it to be... so it gives me at least some small glimmer of hope for Cormyr and the rest of the series.
Uinidal 03-19-07, 03:24 AM	Which are the books of the shadow war trilogy.I looked through the products but couldn't find them.
Old Sage 03-19-07, 03:58 AM	They're Paul Kemp's 'Twilight War' books -- the first of which was only just released last November. They are:- Book 1 - Shadowbred (http://www.candlekeep.com/bookshelf/novels/956167400.htm) Book 2 - Shadowstorm (http://www.candlekeep.com/bookshelf/novels/ttw-2.htm) Book 3 - Shadowrealm (http://www.candlekeep.com/bookshelf/novels/ttw-3.htm)
Uinidal 03-19-07, 07:54 AM	Thanks man.By th e way it's been some time since we had some news from candlekeep.
Old Sage 03-19-07, 08:08 AM	News about what?
Uinidal 03-19-07, 08:18 AM	well i mean the last update was at january 10,more than two months ago.
Old Sage 03-19-07, 08:45 AM	There's a new site update due, with plenty of exciting material, sometime between now and the end of the month. We're just finalising a few of the last submissions to the site.
Lord Karsus 03-19-07, 09:53 AM	...and if we're keeping our facts straight, we were the minority then too. Let us not become so enamored of how doggedly we bear our great crosses that we trick ourselves into telling tales of carrying them uphill both ways...after all, that wouldn't be true. ;) -...What does all that mean? I've never heard the expression before. I mean, I am assuming that the gist of it is meaning something like, "You make it seem like you suffer so much", but I might be wrong. -Preportionately, there are probably more players now who are into the Hack-Slash-and-Kill now than there was "then". The rules are to "blame" somewhat, as are the players who are playing the game, and...society. It's always easy to blame society...
ClobberinTime 03-19-07, 10:54 AM	I really really doubt that there are more hack and slashers now than there were before. Hell read Gygax's crews campaign notes, they were the ultimate hacker/slashers, mainly because they brought a wargamers mentality to things. Back in those days thats what D+D was. Honestly, I don't think its the game that is changing, its you guys that are changing. When its happening its hard to see, but in general Adults like the roleplaying aspects of D+D and the kids like the Hack and Slash stuff. So as you guys are out growing the Hacking and Slashing you are starting to notice its prevalence and misperceiving this as being something new, when in fact its your perspective that has changed, not the statistics of the D+D player. On this note too, 1ed was the most hack and slash ever, and its audience was also proportionally the youngest.
ShadezofDis 03-19-07, 12:22 PM	I tend to agree with Clobberin. I used to play the game where the flight of dragons was going to attack the town and never even thought for a second what that'd mean to the local economy. (much less where the dragons came from, what they were up too, and a million other details that can make or break a game for me these days) I've moved from writing a bunch of "bad ass stats" and killing things to trying to develope a living, breathing character with motivations and goals beyond "I'm trying to get to level 20!" Further, I value consistancy above just about everything else, if something is consistant then I can generally come up with a valid reason for it. (as an example "the reason most of the high power casters of the realms don't do more is because they all have a bullseye on them and plenty of people waiting till their guard is down, if they decide to beat off the orcan invasion then they might just be asking for an ambush, best to work through proxies in such a case") Might be a poor example because that's one of the biggest complaints I've seen for the realms. Regardless, I'll probably check out the adventure and there might even be lore that may be liftable from the adventure (but then it will likely clash with older material, again, the consistancy problem) but I can't say I'm at all excited about the book nor am I excited that the published adventures are becoming more common and that "crunch" is more prevelant that "fluff" (though, I'd replace the two terms, stats are fluff to me, I don't care how or what you've stated, I care how things function in the realms and that has a lot more to do with laws, local power struggles, social norms, etc. Which reminds me, I'd give an arm or a leg for a book that described some of the legal systems of the realms, that would probably have been the most useful book for a few of my old games) Anyhow, as it's said, I run my realms and you run yours. It's just a shame that my realms needs are such a low priority (and please don't give me the "blah blah blah business" run down, I'm a professional and I know how business works, it still makes me sad :p) and seemingly unprofitable.
ClobberinTime 03-19-07, 12:28 PM	Shadez-If you haven't bought PoF, buy it, you'll love it, can't say it specifically goes into laws that much, but definitley customs and gives you a pretty good idea for how things work.
Lord Karsus 03-19-07, 01:52 PM	I really really doubt that there are more hack and slashers now than there were before. Hell read Gygax's crews campaign notes, they were the ultimate hacker/slashers, mainly because they brought a wargamers mentality to things. Back in those days thats what D+D was. Honestly, I don't think its the game that is changing, its you guys that are changing. When its happening its hard to see, but in general Adults like the roleplaying aspects of D+D and the kids like the Hack and Slash stuff. So as you guys are out growing the Hacking and Slashing you are starting to notice its prevalence and misperceiving this as being something new, when in fact its your perspective that has changed, not the statistics of the D+D player. On this note too, 1ed was the most hack and slash ever, and its audience was also proportionally the youngest. -I'm not an adult yet...Phew... -When I mentioned the rules changing to suport more hacking and slashing, I meant this: Asides for DMs awarding Ad Hoc EXP for good roleplaying, problem-solving, and whatever else, there are no other ways to recieve EXP asides for killing and such. Alright, maybe certain spells (Wish, Miracle), but let's ignore those for now. Gone are the days (offically) where a Wizard can gain EXP for sitting in his tower and being wizardly, a Cleric sitting in his temple and being devout, a Monk sitting in his monestary being...Monkish, and so on.
ShadezofDis 03-19-07, 02:02 PM	Shadez-If you haven't bought PoF, buy it, you'll love it, can't say it specifically goes into laws that much, but definitley customs and gives you a pretty good idea for how things work. I've got it and while it does give a glimpse into the legal workings it still leaves the DM the job of codifying the laws of a place (and if you're players are anything like mine they'll be sure to hit the one example that you haven't planned for). As a for instance, I'm running a game in Turmish, since all I really know of the legal workings in Turmish is that it's a republic that's mainly ruled by the coin, I've had to extrapolate that into a legal system (the general plot is that they've been hired to find an area to build a horse ranch) and I figured since it's a republic ruled by well educated buisinessmen/women then I'd create a lot of paperwork to deal with (writs of rights to arms, writs of gainful employment, writs to allow the trading of goods, ect ect) Basically, it's been a beast for me to come up with a working system that I've had to build from the ground up (and I've tried lifting from various sources and have successfully encorporated some things) Anyhow, like I said, my players and I tend to play a different game than the "find a dungeon, clear the dungeon, profit, repeat" and in order to create a believable intrigue I need to have the backstory worked out to an extent. Just to give an example of how things run; The players have been hired by a Sembian noble (actually a bastard born child, which is why he's in Turmish creating a business rather than in Sembia enjoying nobility) to find a good area to create a horse ranch. Already the players have begun trying to dig into the noble's past (one PC is from Sembia and has family there, so he's sent a letter asking them to find out what they can) and will likely try and figure out everything they can about this man (he actually happens to be an ex-pc of mine and isn't at all what he appears to be, but he'll be playing this part exclusively for the next decade or two) But basically, I need to have backstory on just about everything I present or my players will tear it apart and I'll be left saying "Well. . . I actually don't have a clue how people are going to react to those actions. ..." I'm pretty sure I'm not as clear as I should be to get my point across, my basic stance is that I far prefer the "fluff" to the "crunch" :D
Katowice 03-19-07, 03:53 PM	Just FYI, if you live in Virginia, our local Borders had half a dozen copies of Cormyr when I went in on St. Paddy's Day.
createvmind 03-19-07, 04:08 PM	Pushing 40, I guess you're right, I am getting old, but I've always been into the story and been fortunate to have DM's who were as well. Now as a DM I toil endlessly trying to find tidbits that will make my players go "Oooooooh snap!";)
Lord Karsus 03-19-07, 04:34 PM	Pushing 40, I guess you're right, I am getting old, but I've always been into the story and been fortunate to have DM's who were as well. Now as a DM I toil endlessly trying to find tidbits that will make my players go "Oooooooh snap!";) -I wish I was that lucky. The two/three DMs I've played with have all been the "Details!? Who cares about details!? Roll the dice and kill things!!" kind of people. Now, I'm the DM, and I am making sure to inject as much..."reality" and "color" into my world as possible. Much to my dismay, of my two players, one sometimes seems to care, and the other usually doesn't seem to care. But, it's always amusing when they miss a clue, or something like that because of their tendencies.
ClobberinTime 03-19-07, 06:33 PM	In 1st ed no player or npc for that matter ever made magic items, ever, they were all basically the equivalent of minor artifacts, in fact there weren't even rules to create them. I thought that the AoW adventure path was pretty fair with story awards, I would hold that out as a proper way to use the rules. Probably 10-20% of the characters expts came from story awards. I think that Red Hand of Doom also had a bunch of experience awards too, do the RAW eliminate this?
Lord Karsus 03-19-07, 11:15 PM	In 1st ed no player or npc for that matter ever made magic items, ever, they were all basically the equivalent of minor artifacts, in fact there weren't even rules to create them. I thought that the AoW adventure path was pretty fair with story awards, I would hold that out as a proper way to use the rules. Probably 10-20% of the characters expts came from story awards. I think that Red Hand of Doom also had a bunch of experience awards too, do the RAW eliminate this? -I originally said to not count Ad Hoc Roleplaying EXP awards. I never played either adventure, so I really can't comment on those story awards. What I meant is that there are no explicit rules that say, "When Wizard spends X amount of time in his study studying, he gains Z EXP", or "When Cleric spends X amount of time in devout prayer, he gains Z EXP", and so on. Those are absent from the rules (Core Rules, at least- I don't have any of those "Complete" books).
Stigger 03-20-07, 12:38 AM	Love the Complete series myself, a lot of really good stuff in there... well, Divine is kinda crap actually, but Mage and Arcane are well worth it. But no, there are no rules that say you gain Z xp for X amount of whatever that's not combat there either.
createvmind 03-20-07, 12:38 AM	In none of the complete booke either.
Lord Karsus 03-20-07, 09:04 AM	-Oh well. So that's officially absent, then.
ShadezofDis 03-20-07, 09:59 AM	-Oh well. So that's officially absent, then. Yep, so far as I know. Though I've been working on a homebrew set of "training" xp awards, though I still have to work in the good old "Well, in the course of your research you accidentally blew up your lab" type tables and make sure that the system doesn't "over award" for training. And that's in addition to your skill/feat/prestige training (because, well, I'm a jerk DM like that *g*)
KoboldSlayer 03-20-07, 10:29 AM	Cool.At last an answer.Please man if you wish when you take a better look i'd like to have your opinion again.I hope this one it's not like Pool of Radiance which was totaly hack n' slash but has some plot as well. (I am not including any spoilers, just very general things, because I don't know how to use the spoiler buttons.) The book is divided into three sections that go together to form the whole. It looks like each section would span one to two games sessions (or probably more for my group because we only play a 4-hour session instead of the 6 to 8-hour ones I used to run). I've read the first one all the way through, including all tactical encounters, because that's what I'll run first. And I've skimmed the others briefly. The first section, definitely, is not "just" a hack and slash. There's some hacking and slashing that's got to be done, like any good adventure. But there's some roleplaying and diplomacy and problem-solving that's got to be done, too. I suppose you COULD hack your way through the whole thing...if you were a masochist. Or you could try to talk your way through the whole thing...if your character is suicidal. But, actually, it's one of the best mixes of combat plus roleplay that I've seen. It should make your roleplayers and your "roll-players" both happy. You need to do both, and do both smartly. The combat, also, is laid out very well and has enough terrain, furnishings, and such to make the combats more interesting than just "ho-hum, there's a goblin here and a PC there and we're in an empty room" (and it includes the quick rules for using the settings, such as cover...what happens if you want to use this particular furniture for higher ground, etc.). I think if you run the combat as intended, it will be much more cinematic than the usual line up the NPCs and knock 'em down layouts that some adventures come with.
Uinidal 03-20-07, 12:44 PM	Thank you very much man!What you say is really interesting and it seems to me that we have similar views of what role-playing is.I'll wait eagerly until the book reaches the stores here and definetely go get one.
miscellany 03-21-07, 03:05 AM	La la lala. Dee dee dedee!!! I have the book now so you can as me.....questions!!!!! ::::::::::::::::::::: In 1st ed no player or npc for that matter ever made magic items, ever, they were all basically the equivalent of minor artifacts, in fact there weren't even rules to create them. ??? How far back do you mean by “1st ed”? The DM's guide circa 1979 has rules for the Fabrication of Magic Items, Inlcuding Potions and Scrolls (page 116) and goes on to list all kinds of cool things like the rules for magic item creation by enslaved magic users, what sorts of ingredients one needs for potions (Potion of Longevity = Dragon's Blood, Treant Sap and Elf Blood....sounds tasty!) and instructions on how to make scroll ink, including (but not limited to) 1 oz. giant squid, *6 pumpkin seeds, 1 basilisk eye... Are we talking like the white book pamphlet? ...there are no other ways to recieve EXP asides for killing and such. Alright, maybe certain spells (Wish, Miracle), but let's ignore those for now. Gone are the days (offically) where a Wizard can gain EXP for sitting in his tower and being wizardly, a Cleric sitting in his temple and being devout, a Monk sitting in his monestary being...Monkish, and so on. Well, a PC doesn’t necessarily have to kill a creature or NPC to defeat them (that is, overcome the challenge such creatures/NPCs represent), and the DMG (page 37) makes that explicit with regard to awarding experience. Of course, it’s silly to award XP for characters that do....well, nothing. :::::::::::::::::::::::: I have the Magic Item Compendium now too! Tee hee! :D
Stigger 03-21-07, 04:01 AM	I'm pretty certain LK was getting at more academic/spiritual/philosophical activities that aren't really part of coming into conflict with anything. The wizard sitting in his tower, reading tomes, researching spells, gazing at the heavens, playing in the lab, etcetera for academic purposes, rather than going out and killing/defeating things. I mean, if that were the only way to get experience, the clergy of Lliira and Eldath would for the most part be utterly and completely screwed and rarely get past 1st level... an exhaggeration certainly, but I think it conveys the point.
Lord Karsus 03-21-07, 09:25 AM	Of course, it’s silly to award XP for characters that do....well, nothing. I'm pretty certain LK was getting at more academic/spiritual/philosophical activities that aren't really part of coming into conflict with anything. The wizard sitting in his tower, reading tomes, researching spells, gazing at the heavens, playing in the lab, etcetera for academic purposes, rather than going out and killing/defeating things. -Stigger is correct. With my players, there has been a joking going around for some time now. "Well, I want to learn a new language...Time to kill me an Orc."
ShadezofDis 03-21-07, 09:32 AM	-Stigger is correct. With my players, there has been a joking going around for some time now. "Well, I want to learn a new language...Time to kill me an Orc." Good thing I'd already finished my coffee :p
Uinidal 03-21-07, 01:03 PM	La la lala. Dee dee dedee!!! I have the book now so you can as me.....questions!!!!! ::::::::::::::::::: I have the Magic Item Compendium now too! Tee hee! :D Well then tell us your opinion about the book!Do you think the plot is good?And moreover do the players get an idea of the plot?Cause sometimes in adventures the DM might know what's going on through information that is meant to be read only by him but the players only see foes coming at them and nothing more.Finally what about Magic Item Compendium?Is it worth the time(and our money)?
ClobberinTime 03-21-07, 01:31 PM	Its possible I was misremembering, and I haven't looked at the old DMG for at least 10 years, my copy is in a vault at my mom's, by vault in this case I mean under piles and piles of childhood leftovers, :) I am pretty sure though the rules you are talking about in the 1ed 1979 DMG only go so far as potions, and scrolls, and those are less rules than they are a set of recipes, they aren't very systematic and leave almost everything up to the DM. Does it actually go over the permanency spell and the loss of 1 con point in there? Hell maybe I'm just wrong and it was all there.
Lord Karsus 03-21-07, 02:28 PM	...my copy is in a vault at my mom's, by vault in this case I mean under piles and piles of childhood leftovers, :) -"Rediscovering" things is very, very fun. My grandmother died earlier this year, and while everyone was emptying out her apartment, I found a lot of old stuff I made up when I was younger (5-10 range). I found a couple of homemade X-Men comics, where me and my friends at the time just happened to be X-Men, I found some half-written rules for a Mario RPG game I seemed to have been making up at the time, I found a couple of old toys...Good stuff. :)
Subotai 03-21-07, 02:51 PM	Picked up C:TOW, and it looks good, but I wonder why they put it in hardcover.
Lord Karsus 03-21-07, 04:14 PM	Picked up C:TOW, and it looks good, but I wonder why they put it in hardcover. -The three softcover FR sourcebooks (Magic of Faerûn , Lords of Darkness and Silver Marches) apparently didn't catch on enough, so the entire softcover thing was scrapped. The prices for hardcover and softcover sourcebooks are the same, though, so we'd might as well have hardcover books, since they are more durable.
Stigger 03-22-07, 02:26 AM	Magic Item Compendium is well worth the money if you ask me. A lot of really useful stuff in there, as well as some new gimmicks that are going to quickly become favorites of mine. The weapon and armor crystals alone make the book worth it. They're essentially removeable enchantments that add on to your existing armor/weapons to optimize them for a given situation without having to permanently enchant them. They're a bit on the weak side, compared to permanent enchantments, but they do let you turn a basic +X weapon/armor into a real workhorse that's at least decent for any given situation with the right crystals at hand. The lesser variety will even work on mundane armor/weapons if I recall correctly... really tremendously cool stuff there. Runestaffs look pretty decent too... basically they let you expend a spell slot to power certain effects from the staff instead of using charges. A bit situational, but handy in the right context. Otherwise, it's essentially a compilation of the greatest hits for items and item properties that are spread out over a few dozen books, all in one handy easy to find place. The reference tables in the back are very well put together as well, making item creation very fast and easy. I'd heartily recommend it.
Subotai 03-22-07, 09:28 AM	-The three softcover FR sourcebooks (Magic of Faerûn , Lords of Darkness and Silver Marches) apparently didn't catch on enough, so the entire softcover thing was scrapped. The prices for hardcover and softcover sourcebooks are the same, though, so we'd might as well have hardcover books, since they are more durable. Good point. Surprised to hear about the three previous releases, I thought they were decent.
Lord Karsus 03-22-07, 09:29 AM	Good point. Surprised to hear about the three previous releases, I thought they were decent. -I thought they were decent, too, in terms of actual physical quality, and information contained with.
Stigger 03-22-07, 12:19 PM	Very decent... Magic of Faerun in particular was an excellent book, I thought.
miscellany 03-23-07, 01:49 AM	SPOILERS Well then tell us your opinion about the book!Do you think the plot is good?And moreover do the players get an idea of the plot?Cause sometimes in adventures the DM might know what's going on through information that is meant to be read only by him but the players only see foes coming at them and nothing more.Finally what about Magic Item Compendium?Is it worth the time(and our money)? Why, glad you should ask! ;) I must say I find it hard to slow my thoughts enough to coherently list (and not forget) everything I like about these (two) books. But let us start with your questions: PLOT: Yes, I think the plot all around is great, but I find that I don’t care for the plot/adventure hooks. If anything, the one (last) hook that gets just a few lines is actually IMO is the best is the one where the PCs get screwed over by priests of the Temple of Mystra and go gunning for those priests in response. DO PLAYERS GET TO KNOW WHAT’S GOING ON? The adventure wastes no time in letting the players in on what’s happening and what they need to do, which is good. Interested players are players that deviate from the plot a whole lot less, making things easier on a DM. WHAT DO I THINK: I can sure as heck say there are plenty of foes to face in this adventure, but DAMN if WotC doesn’t make things easy for a DM. The new encounter format simply kicks ass. All you need to DM is right on one page. On top of that a DM could totally take any of these pages and use them for one shot encounters outside of the adventure. The maps are great and each encounter area gets reproduced so DMs have tons of detail to work with. Lastly I’ll say I really like how the adventure right up front educates DMs on rules for cover, fighting in water (and how that affects line of sight, etc.. for spells). <more later; my turn on the computer is over for now> :)
Katowice 03-23-07, 01:48 PM	I agree that the encounter format is good, however, they should have formatted it like the rest of the text in the booki.e., the "Forgotten Realms" style. The font and graphics selection likes something out of one of the generic D&D books, not a Forgotten Realms book.
Uinidal 03-23-07, 01:55 PM	Another opinion that makes me happy!I hope the other books of the trilogy are of the same quality.I defenitely wanna check the new encounter system cause up to now while i dm the thing that takes most time during sessions is combat.Well i don't care either for the adventure hooks but i like to have the players in anticipation of what is going to happen next,thinking over situations etc.That's why i want adventures to have a good "scenario". Thanks for the info though and enjoy your game!
Faraer 03-23-07, 02:08 PM	Magic of Faerûn was actually supposed to be hardback, but there was some kind of miscommunication. I don't think anything is publicly known about the sales of Silver Marches. It's more that Wizards, like the rest of the RPG industry, just realized that hardbacks (especially 160pp plus) sold more than paperbacks almost universally.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-25-07, 12:06 AM	> I'm pretty certain LK was getting at more academic/spiritual/philosophical > activities that aren't really part of coming into conflict with anything. The > wizard sitting in his tower, reading tomes, researching spells, gazing at the > heavens, playing in the lab, etcetera for academic purposes, rather than going > out and killing/defeating things. I mean, if that were the only way to get > experience, the clergy of Lliira and Eldath would for the most part be utterly > and completely screwed and rarely get past 1st level... an exhaggeration > certainly, but I think it conveys the point. You gain XP by overcoming challenges. Those types of NPCs are presumably facing various challenges in the course of their activities, just not the sort of challenges that your typical adventurer goes after.
Stigger 03-25-07, 02:08 AM	Sure, that would be a reasonable assumption, but I think the complaint was more centered around the fact that those options aren't given guidelines for use by PC's... which he, and I, believe should be presented for non-conventional campaigns. Sure you can house rule it, but it would be nice to have an idea about it. One of my major complaints about expending XP for crafting magical items stems from that fact... no one in their right mind would ever do it if you're losing accumulated knowledge and experience by crafting them. I could conceivably learn something about the way magic interacted with the world, figure out ways to make the crafting of the item more efficient, and practice my spellcasting while making a magical item, but according to the rules I'm actually losing experience with magic and the potential to gain new knowledge by doing so... how does that make any sense at all?
protonik 03-25-07, 02:31 AM	-Well, that kinda is the point. If the your current legislative body is doing a bad job, do you vote for the same people, just because they already are the current legislators, so you figure, "Eh, why not..."? No, you vote for someone else, in hopes that they are elected. The closest thing we have to votes are our dollars. If we spend a lot, WotC says, "OK, we are doing something right. Full speed ahead." If we don't spend a lot, WotC says, "Hmm...Something is going wrong. Let's see what the problem is, and work out the kinks". But the thing is that unlike Government, WOTC could see the declining sales of FR and say, oh, you know what? Uh uh. Then give Ed and the Realms the fat pink sheet and a gold watch out the door. The best thing to do is fill out the survey cards and write to the company about what you want to see rather than not buy it. Some Realms is better than no Realms and so what, they published an adventure instead of a region book. Its set in a region that has had enough sourcebooks to use the paper to make a forest the size of Rhode Island. Is it that they haven't done more regional books and sales on those have been in steady decline? I think that might be the real reason, that and people have been asking for adventures.
GothicDan 03-25-07, 10:55 AM	Then give Ed and the Realms the fat pink sheet and a gold watch out the door. Ed sold the Realms willingly. The best thing to do is fill out the survey cards and write to the company about what you want to see rather than not buy it. Incorrect. All of the WotC employees have told us to state our opinion with our wallets. Some Realms is better than no Realms and so what, I'm of the opinion that if you're going to do something, do it right or don't do it at all. ;) they published an adventure instead of a region book. Its set in a region that has had enough sourcebooks to use the paper to make a forest the size of Rhode Island. What 3E books/supplements have covered Cormyr? Is it that they haven't done more regional books and sales on those have been in steady decline? I think that might be the real reason, that and people have been asking for adventures. Nope. Rich Baker has said that they still plan on doing regional sourcebooks, and they said that it's not due to buyer input that they're doing the adventures. They said that it's an entirely experimental format thing.
miscellany 03-25-07, 12:00 PM	Incorrect. All of the WotC employees have told us to state our opinion with our wallets. Incorrect part deux. While it's true many WotC employees have said some variation of "vote with your wallet", it is also not true that consumers should only do A) use your wallet, or B) fill out the cards. The correct answer is to do both. The more information WotC has, the better it can serve its customers. :D
Stigger 03-25-07, 02:06 PM	Amusingly, it was only yesterday that I actually noticed those cards even existed...
Dexter_Blacktyde 03-25-07, 07:57 PM	La la lala. Dee dee dedee!!! I have the book now so you can as me.....questions!!!!! Very well, then: Is it the typical D&D hackfest, or does it offer more than a string of encounters? And what about the adventure / regional information ratio? DB
Lord Karsus 03-25-07, 11:59 PM	But the thing is that... -Yeah, there isn't anything I have to say that Dan didn't already mention. While it's true many WotC employees have said some variation of "vote with your wallet", it is also not true that consumers should only do A) use your wallet, or B) fill out the cards. The correct answer is to do both. -Heh, you'd have to buy a WotC product in order to get the card, anyway, unless you are an odd, odd individual who steals the feedback/subscription postcards from books/magazines/comics, etc. -And they do exist, unfortunatley...:shifty:
miscellany 03-30-07, 01:49 AM	SPOILERS....YE BE WARNED, AND ALL THAT. Very well, then: Is it the typical D&D hackfest, or does it offer more than a string of encounters? And what about the adventure / regional information ratio? I’ll start with your last first and then answer your first last, OK? ;) (reposted from another tread) This book devotes 4.5 pages in its appendix to a description for DMs of Southeastern Cormyr and the unique character of the Cormite Citizens that populate it. It also includes information on Wheloon (including its Appearance, History and its Leaders) and includes a half page color map with 18 keyed points of interest within Wheloon (with each described on pages 149 and 151); The Vast Swamp (including three points of interest: The Lost Refuge, Orvaskyte Keep and Elven Ruins --not all of which are part of the adventure but let DMs expand play if they want); and Other Sites of Interest (The Golden Ruins, Hermit's Wood, Tomb of Chonis and the Unknown Shrine --again for additional play). The appendix includes a quarter-page sized map of Southeastern Cormyr for DMs so they can reference all the regional locations on the Vast Swamp, as well as the surrounding towns and cities (Jundirill, Hultail, Thunderstone, Highcastle, Hidden Vale, Kirinwood, Battlerise, Monksblade, Dreamer's Rock) ...all linked either by the Hullack Trail or the Way of the Manticore. IMO as a DM and book buyer I think it would make this tome too unwieldy to have its pages filled with a deeper description of the outlying areas beyond Wheloon. Better to do as was done: Give over the majority of pages to the adventure and leave just enough to wet a DMs appetite for more play. (OK now on to the second...err, the first question!) There’s definitely some hacking and slashing to be had, but damn if WotC didn’t go out of their way to make it fun for players and easy for DM’s. Aside from the Tactical Encounter Format and the Encounter Maps* (golden, just golden), the book starts right off with a refresher for DMs on how to conduct combat in the dark and in water (ergo some of that to be had in this adventure). About the only thing it didn’t do was to remind DMs they should do more than say, “It’s dark, don’t forget to roll a miss chance” when they run encounters. Something I liked about the first part of the adventure was the fact that the bad guys are smart...if the PCs go on a rampage but don’t finish the dead, the bad guys don’t sit on their collective asses waiting to get hacked to death at some future date. Instead they bust their humps to hire more defenders and replenish their higher-level NPC losses. There are gamers all over the country (world?) who don’t yet know their arrogant selves are about to get served when their favorite character strolls back into a room in the Temple of Mystra they previously cleared, only to be surprised by more Temple Guards eager to gut intruders and avenge fallen comrades. There’s even an assassin encounter (page 22, 23) beyond the Temple designed to lure the PCs to their deaths should they attack the Temple then withdraw. What else....ah yes, Chapter Story Awards! At the end of each chapter comes a list of bullet points that detail experience awards PCs can earn when they complete certain tasks in the adventure. Chapter one has 7, chapter two has 5, chapter three has 5, chapter four has 4, and chapter five has 4, for a total of 25 story awards. And here Lord Karsus was complaining the other day about how 3E only lets you earn XP for killing things...he should play this adventure and get his smile back. Lastly....The Black Chronology. Yeah I know: Coolness. So don’t think of 1374 as the Year of Lightening Storms, but instead as the Year of the Unraveling. Just as 1365 is really the Year of Joyous Elves, and 1385 is the Year of Revelation. Let the Book of the Black guide you, and all will be revealed in time by the Lady of Loss. See? Even awesomer now than 10 seconds ago. OK...if you have specific questions then fire away! :D *A topic worth its own post from me later, when I can get around to it
Dexter_Blacktyde 03-30-07, 02:18 AM	Thanks for the report! :) It still seems to be the typical WotC fare, although apparently with some improvements (nice to have tips that deal with circumstances the GM would otherwise have to look up elsewhere, and equally nice to see that some thought seems to have gone into the encounters beyond "Hey, at least it's cool") - and the story awards sound positively revolutionary for WotC's standards :D Just to be on the safe side, I'll issue another SPOILER warning for this question: Would you be so kind to give a little more detailed information about the Black Chronology? (From what I hear I gather that it's the Shadow Weave Roll of Years, correct? What is its background? I mean, beyond the obvious, of course *g*) DB
miscellany 03-30-07, 02:56 AM	SPOILERS....YE BE WARNED AGAIN! ARGHH! Would you be so kind to give a little more detailed information about the Black Chronology? (From what I hear I gather that it's the Shadow Weave Roll of Years, correct? What is its background? I mean, beyond the obvious, of course *g*) Don’t look now, but Watchful Skull Blackwill Akhmelere is praying to Cyric for answers to those same questions! His companion in darkness Skull Servant Ethar discovered a ruined parchment dating to the time of a monastery presumably dominated by Sharan Monks and the like, whereupon some 34 years worth of alternate names for the years were listed. Even now Ethar and Blackwill ponder its meanings and wonder whether the Book of the Black might reveal more years. As might be guessed, Ethar’s allies amongst the Sharans were so obviously tight-lipped on the subject they could be said to have lied by saying nothing. Despayr, for its part, was too hard to read for Ethar to determine if its ignorance was real or feigned (though Cyric would know as He always does). Little else can I say, less Shar get all nasty on me and make me cry a river. :D Going to the bookstore? Page 158/159 are your friend!
Dexter_Blacktyde 03-30-07, 03:22 AM	Many thanks! :) DB
Skeptical Clown 03-30-07, 08:13 AM	The reason there are no XP listings for non-combat activities is obvious; there is no XP listing for ANYTHING, other than for Challenge Ratings. Characters gain XP for overcoming Challenges of the appropriate level, not for slaying orcs. Traps and monsters have Challenge Ratings because it the difficulty that a monster or trap poses to a player character is quantifiable, and both are something that WOTC has provided to the players. Encounters that are not traps or monsters are, on the other hand, entirely subjective--what Challenge Rating do you assign to studying? So it is left to the DM to concoct Challenge Ratings for those unconventional encounters.
ShadezofDis 03-30-07, 11:04 AM	So it is left to the DM to concoct Challenge Ratings for those unconventional encounters. . . . so you're saying it's a-ok that WotC quantified the easy situations but left us holding the bag for the difficult situations? It's not that difficult to figure out a good challange for a party (well, after a half dozen games anyhow, without playing it's difficult) and I suppose it's not impossible to extrapolate CR's for different situations (ie. Getting the local ruler to listen to your wild tales of monsters in the hills, DC 20 diplomacy roll, if you're diplomacy is >=10 the CR is low for your level, if you're diplomacy is <10 the CR is above you're level, etc. However, it is still difficult to think about 1st level Bard with maxed diplomacy vs a 15th level fighter with no social skills, the CR would be lower for the bard and higher for the fighter. . . well then again I should stop on this tangent) Encounters that are not traps or monsters are, on the other hand, entirely subjective--what Challenge Rating do you assign to studying? If you're saying that "the situation depends upon the character who is studying and the subject that the character is studying" then I agree. . . but that's what Algebra is all about and the current 3.5 rules are math geek heaven (I'm exagerating there :p), see my above example about the local lord deal. . . of course, that situation is VERY open to abuse (ie. for the 1st level bard the DC 20 diplomacy would be a CR. . . 2? 3? ie. would be an appropriate challange for a 2nd level bard, 3rd level bard? For the 15th level fighter the CR of that situation would be. . . 16? 17? ie. with 0 social ranks the fighter needs a roll of 20 to succeed, the rough formula I'm playing with is . . . well. . . it sucks and that's the whole point, the more I think about the formula I came up with in the past half minute the more holes I see. . . and that's why I feel it would be best for the people who get paid to think about these things to do just that {think about these things}) Too many parenthesis :/
zerachial 03-30-07, 12:24 PM	SPOILER WARNING! I don't know if anyone else has this problem, but in my copy, in the open courtyard the description of Shan Thar mentions a guard by the name of "Thendric" and gives a response for Shan Thar is the characters ask about him and his info. Problem is - there's no info for interacting with a guard called Thendric. Wtf? Where'd he come from - and what's this about prisoners?? Am I the only person with that bit missing from my book? Z.
FineasBoggs 03-30-07, 01:32 PM	It's missing from mine as well and will no doubt be addressed in an upcoming errata. :rolleyes: In the meantime, it probably has something to do with a conversation you might have with Thendric in the guardhouse, where he mentions it odd that prisoners from jail have been taken into the temple and not seen again.
BobROE 03-30-07, 02:22 PM	SPOILER WARNING! I don't know if anyone else has this problem, but in my copy, in the open courtyard the description of Shan Thar mentions a guard by the name of "Thendric" and gives a response for Shan Thar is the characters ask about him and his info. Problem is - there's no info for interacting with a guard called Thendric. Wtf? Where'd he come from - and what's this about prisoners?? Am I the only person with that bit missing from my book? Z. Ya it looks like Thendric was removed from the adventure without removing all references to him. My guess that it was another adventure hook.
FineasBoggs 03-30-07, 02:53 PM	Thendric wasn't removed from the adventure. He is still listed as being found in the guardroom, just the conversation that would have needed to be referenced for the question to Shan Thar to be of use.
Skeptical Clown 03-30-07, 03:16 PM	. . . so you're saying it's a-ok that WotC quantified the easy situations but left us holding the bag for the difficult situations? No. What I'm saying is that WotC quantified what is quantifiable, and left us with the unquantifiable--they have, in fact, done the hard work, and left us with the comparably easy work. As they should. If they came up with a Challenge Rating for diplomatic encounters, one person might agree and ninenty-nine others would all disagree with its results. And all of them would be right, because any challenge rating for a non-combat task is totally arbitrary. You can do some sort of statistical analysis on D&D combat--there are general guidelines for how powerful a character should be, and you can play out, over a number of trials, how frequently a balanced party will come out successful. And even though a trap really only plays out once against a group, you can gauge the difficulty of avoiding the trap and the amount of damage that it does to the party to calculate how challenging an encounter it is. But how do you measure Diplomacy? The rules give only one mechanic, a single d20 roll. There is no statistical variation in one given encounter--you succeed or you fail. And success and failure are essentially arbitrary measurements of the DM; the rules can do no more than provide vague guidelines. The DC for a Diplomacy check might be exactly the same to beg for a loaf of bread from a miser, or to sway a king to not invade the neighboring kingdom. But the results are quite different. You can't develop a calculus for that. You just have to leave it to the discretion of the DM, like any other narrative mechanic. Now, you could argue that the mechanics for non-combat tasks are inadequate. But that's a different story, and not really related to whether there should be XP charts for non-combat tasks.
Purple Dragon Knight 03-30-07, 07:46 PM	Incorrect. All of the WotC employees have told us to state our opinion with our wallets.Excuse me?!? I don't remember hearing that at all from any of the FR designers. I'm sure it is fair to assume that a designer would like to see his product sell, as a reflection of his art, but please don't go around telling people that all WotC employees are capitalist pigs who do not care about what we think as gamers. If they wouldn't, they wouldn't even spare two seconds answering the numerous questions you post on the boards.
GothicDan 03-30-07, 09:12 PM	I'm not even going to respond on the fact that you're basically insinuating that I'm lying. It was said on Candlekeep. And I didn't infer they were 'capitalist pigs,' as you put it, unless you consider all lucrative corporations to be 'capitalist pigs.' Have a nice day.
Lord Karsus 03-30-07, 11:34 PM	-I seem to recall reading someone (author, designer, random WotC employee) saying that we do "speak with our wallets", so to speak. Might have been Rich Baker, since all I am really coming up with is his name right now. It was in regards, I think, to these new "Super Adventures", and if there were going to be more in the future. So, to translate, he was saying that if they sold good, and interest was high, there might be more. But, if they were colossal failures, then don't expect to see any more.
miscellany 03-30-07, 11:48 PM	KEEP IT ON TOPIC....pretty please? So it is left to the DM to concoct Challenge Ratings for those unconventional encounters. Hi Clown! I must say it's not up to a DM to find CRs at all. Really. Honest! PCs simply do or don't, say, reunite the heads from Fembrys's room with the headless bodies in the torture chamber. If they do that's 100 XP. If they don't then no award. It's either or with no CR involved. See? Have a nice day everyone! :D
Stigger 03-31-07, 04:11 AM	Quick note, I think Eric L Boyd said something to the effect that we should vote with our wallets on these boards not too long ago, if memory serves, though I don't recall the thread it was in. I've seen many of the designers say things to that effect. Interesting bit on the xp rewards though. Presuming it's as Miscellany says it is, I hope it's a trend they continue with.
Purple Dragon Knight 03-31-07, 04:38 PM	I'm not even going to respond on the fact that you're basically insinuating that I'm lying. It was said on Candlekeep. And I didn't infer they were 'capitalist pigs,' as you put it, unless you consider all lucrative corporations to be 'capitalist pigs.' Have a nice day.I think that is a response, yes, but not an admission that you made a sweeping generalization about WotC's employees. You said "All of the WotC employees have told us to state our opinion with our wallets." I think you are smart enough to know that this is clearly false.
Stigger 03-31-07, 05:27 PM	I think it's probably safe to say that all of the ones who've stated an opinion on the matter have pretty much all said to vote with our wallets actually. Never seen one say anything to the contrary, those who've commented on it publicly anyway.
ericlboyd 03-31-07, 06:10 PM	Quick note, I think Eric L Boyd said something to the effect that we should vote with our wallets on these boards not too long ago, if memory serves, though I don't recall the thread it was in. I've seen many of the designers say things to that effect. Interesting bit on the xp rewards though. Presuming it's as Miscellany says it is, I hope it's a trend they continue with. Not me, as far as I remember. I try very hard to stay out of such discussions. As a freelancer, I just enjoy the privilege of writing for the Realms, whenever I'm asked and whatever the topic. I hope very much that you all enjoy Shadowdale (which I wrote a lot of) and the trilogy as a whole. --Eric
GothicDan 04-01-07, 02:57 AM	'All of the WotC employees' as in those who HAVE said anything on the matter. And those have been, as far as I know, SKR and Rich Baker, both of which said what I said above.
miscellany 04-01-07, 04:41 AM	So anyway...did I mention that the Tactical Encounter Format for this adventure gives all kinds of useful rules and advice to spice up combat? A new-to-the-game DM that uses even half the stuff in each of these encounters will come off looking like a genius, and after the adventure will have developed skills aplenty for use in future adventures. Take the Swamp Cabin Encounter (pages 120-121): Right off it's a multi-environment area. PCs start out on a rope suspension bridge (which can be cut, damage and made to colapse) over a chasm (150' down, so 10d6 plus 2d3 non-lethal falling damage possible) that leads to a waterfall (unattended objects and unconscious PCs in the water will move 5' a round and eventually will go right over the edge) and a pair of cabins perched precariously on rocks jutting up from the waterfall's edge (PCs can waid through the water and may end up fighting foes in it/from it). Once at the cabins, they can use miscellaneous small wooden crates as cover, to stand upon with a Jump check for a +1 bonus to melee attacks for higher ground, or slow foes as it costs 2 squares of movement to move through them. And that's just me paraphrasing; this book is packed with encounter details but is also really easy and sraightforward to use. Basically anything a PC might do will have been covered by the encounter information. And I haven't even gotten started on the Canoloths; how easy it is to use the Spot and Listen rules for them vs. the PCs, how far they can see, what their tactics are and the instructions the book gives the DM on how to run them and describe them in play to the players. All it will take is a DM having a Canoloth jump up on a crate, then roll a to-hit at +12 instead of +11 for players to realize they should be looking for imaginative ways to find advantages like higher ground during combat. :D :D
Stigger 04-01-07, 12:15 PM	Oops, sorry about that misattribution there Eric. :) That tactical encounter format is what has me most interested in the adventures. Not sure I have much interest in the adventure, I've never been a big fan of published adventures for any game honestly, but seeing the template and combining it with CC3 looks really promising.
Mr_Miscellany 04-08-07, 07:28 PM	SO is anyone planning to use this or currently playing it? I'm going to find some way to convert the challenges up in level for my Epic Realms Campaign. If you're going to run this please feel free to share your experiences here!
Azar_of_Faerun 04-08-07, 07:37 PM	Wow, it makes one wonder - if you consider the product garbage, what do you think of those that purchase it, or even *gasp* enjoy it? :confused:
Mr_Miscellany 04-08-07, 07:40 PM	Azar I hope you are not talking about me. I've posted a lot of positive comments about the adventure (under Miscellany's login). :confused:
Azar_of_Faerun 04-08-07, 07:49 PM	My apologies, that wasn't a direct reply to you Mr_Miscellany I meant it in general
Lord Karsus 04-08-07, 10:53 PM	Wow, it makes one wonder - if you consider the product garbage, what do you think of those that purchase it, or even *gasp* enjoy it? :confused: -We do live in a very polarized society, in terms of politics, religion and the like, today, but it's not mandatory to hate those who disagree with you.
ElberethSilverleaf 04-09-07, 12:25 AM	Well I bought the module last week. If it weren't for the fact that I bought it from my local comic/gaming store and I try to support indie businesses I would have returned it for a full refund! It's really not that good of a module in my opinion. WAAAY too expensive and not your money's worth. Wait until it shows up on the bittorrent or file sharing sites if you want this, then if you actually like it, go out and buy it, if not delete it from your hard drive.
ShadezofDis 04-09-07, 09:56 AM	Wow, it makes one wonder - if you consider the product garbage, what do you think of those that purchase it, or even *gasp* enjoy it? :confused: It makes me think that you enjoy a different aspect of the D&D game than I do (in a relative sense, you may very much like a game I ran but it would probably be quite different from a game you ran) Further, it's like the difference in music taste. I may LOVE some music that you find juvenile and immature but that'd does not mean you will find me juvenile and immature. (you may find me juvenile and immature, but it won't be due to what sort of music I like, it will be due to my actions *g*) Hope that clears that up :) (Note: other's may have different opinions, this is mine)
ShadezofDis 04-09-07, 10:14 AM	Skeptical, I disagree that it's impossible to work out a CR type system for non-combat actions. I don't feel this is a major detraction to the game but I do feel it's something that is missing. It seems we don't see eye to eye on this and I'm a-ok with that :)
ElberethSilverleaf 04-09-07, 05:50 PM	Thank Corellon! Someone who can respectfully agree to disagree! What a breath of fresh air after so many people can't accept a different point of view or take legit. criticism concerning their pet idea, class, axe to grind... I get so disgusted that so many disagreements devolve into petty insults.
Delendir 04-11-07, 11:06 AM	I got my copy of the book today and I've glanced through it. Basically I just speed through it, reading the conclusions and paragraphs with majority of the plot. It's actually the first pre-made adventure module I have bought since the Temple of the Elemental Evil. Neither me, nor my players, are fans of these books, since they always seem to fall short. This one seems promising and I think I won't regret the 30 euros I spent on it. Still, one thing stuck in my mind after I had browsed through the book; what's the connection between this book and the second part of the mega-adventure? I know this module has been designed so that you can play it through as a standalone adventure, but there really doesn't seem to be anything in it that would allow the DM to prepare for the second part of the big story, or even hints as to what comes next. I find this a bit annoying, since I always like consistency and a continues story arc, from one adventure to another. And I always plan ahead one or two adventures at a time.
Elvree 04-11-07, 04:02 PM	I am actually starting a campaign specifically to run this series. I love creating my own adventures but I just dont have time to put into it enough to make me satisfied with the final product. Now that thats out of the way, onto the breakdown. I love the format. The rules at the beginning for fighting in the dark and water etc...bravo! Makes life much easier. The "Delve" format for the encounters is superb. I dont think they could have done it any better whatsoever. I love the rules for jumping on crates and using chairs and pillars as cover etc. Plus all the stats for all the encounter on one page: WOW! No more, "Refer to page 7 for the stats of all the mindless henchmen" and flipping back and forth etc. I am a huge fan of the plot, although for my smarter than averege Players I think the title gives too much away as I have already had comments of..."Hmmm I bet Shar is involved somehow" I am a bit worried that if the pull the normal PC behavior they may miss alot of plot points but such is life. This is a great adventure and I look forward to running it and the next two! If there are any specific questions feel free to ask.
Altar_Boy 04-11-07, 06:36 PM	I got my copy of the book today and I've glanced through it. Basically I just speed through it, reading the conclusions and paragraphs with majority of the plot. It's actually the first pre-made adventure module I have bought since the Temple of the Elemental Evil. Neither me, nor my players, are fans of these books, since they always seem to fall short. This one seems promising and I think I won't regret the 30 euros I spent on it. Still, one thing stuck in my mind after I had browsed through the book; what's the connection between this book and the second part of the mega-adventure? I know this module has been designed so that you can play it through as a standalone adventure, but there really doesn't seem to be anything in it that would allow the DM to prepare for the second part of the big story, or even hints as to what comes next. I find this a bit annoying, since I always like consistency and a continues story arc, from one adventure to another. And I always plan ahead one or two adventures at a time. It seems like the authors were keen on making the adventures both as one and compartmentalized. Perhaps the trilogy's authors decided to place the connections solely in the second book. That way, those who buy just the first or last books are unburdened to buy the others, while those who want it all will have the connections in the second act.
miscellany 04-11-07, 10:56 PM	Ha Mr Miscellany is going to try and convert up this adventure to Epic Levels so's he can use it for his Realms Campaign boy I fear to see what Disapyer will be like when he's done advancing him! Poor players. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: