Post/Author/DateTime	Post
msatran 10-19-07, 11:47 PM	I have been asked by the WizO's in a private email to stop posting messages with my new "Signature." This was actually kind of backhanded, as I really was using it in homage to a Roman Orator who I admire very much, and whose oratorical skills are legend. I will do so, but my dissatisfaction with this situation is well known already. So before I find other ways to express my displeasure which are perfectly legal according to their (extremely subjective) interpretation of things, I'll make myself some tea. Back now.... So, let's talk about the Forgotten Realms as a corporate, rather than as a fantasy, entity. The method by which they chose to rewrite the Realms, the method by which things have been handled on these boards, all of these smack of a rewriting of the Forgotten Realms in which the Realms itself is corporately modelled. I'm really looking forward to hearing from marketing directors, advertising executives, and other people who might have unique experience to bring to this discussion. I find the semiotics of this situation fascinating. So, that being said, let's look at the business model, the corporate plan, and the marketing angles, and see what they think they're doing. If you send me a harassment warning, I will intellectualize the discussion forthwith.
Charles Phipps 10-20-07, 12:02 AM	I think it's important to remember that the Forgotten Realms is a franchise first and foremost. It is a creation of Ed Greenwood as a book series but it's evolved well beyond that because he sold it to TSR and by proxy, they published it as an RPG setting. This means its changed and allowed Ed to publish much more about the series than any normal fantasy book series could possibly handle. The Wheel of Time is ridiculously long and wordy for a fantasy series (God Bless you and rest in peace RJ) but it contains nowhere near the level of detail that the Realms does because we have many sourcebooks solely about the parts and places of the Realms as an RPG world. However, the changes started as soon as the first book series because of Doug Niles Moonshaes trilogy. While the "artistic vision" of the creator was compromised, that allowed three very good books to be published. It also led to more controversial decisions like Maztica, Kara-Tur, Zhakara, and the Tuigan Horde that didn't exist in Ed's original conception. Not to mention the Time of Troubles that was solely a Mega-Event for the Realms to switch to 2E. However, these events and re-editions allow the Realms to have flourished where I think only JRR Tolkien's books have continued to be packaged and reprinted for new generations so consistently. Like Star Wars' EU, the Forgotten Realms is a very successful and "living" universe. The long lasting elements of the Forgotten Realms franchise also results in the fact that artistic control can't be maintained but has allowed the Realms to move beyond a purely RPG to also be a Comic book series, novels, and several times has come close to becoming a television series. This is because fans, like you and me, want it to be. It also is what causes the executives to be able to continue publishing the set. Ironically, I'd say the RPG is probably the least financially successful element of all of it. Like comic books, the franchise actually makes more money from Spiderman merchandise and movies than Spiderman has ever made as a comic book. The Bottom Line: May the Executives keep doing what they've done all this time.
msatran 10-20-07, 12:11 AM	Actually, there's a lot of us who would prefer that they chose completely different directions, Charles. And I'm surprised that you chose the word "Franchise" rather than the word "Product." D+D is the Franchise. Forgotten Realms is a marketing tool. That's the premise under which I'm working. Quite frankly, I think allowing the RPGA to have as much say over what happens as it's going to get is a colossal error. Those of us who aren't in the RPGA now have to kowtow to the organization and deal with it. Yes, I have a membership card because I play in the open every year. No, I don't want to play RPGA adventures, because I can go on the same adventure as someone who is halfway across the country from me, AND they can find the same magic items I can. I don't want to go on a later adventure with someone who has the same +3 Intelligent sword I do. Worse, if I'm a fill-in in a tournament slot, I suddenly have no ability to roleplay with my fellow people. Realistically, if I know as much about the adventure as I do, and my fellow PC's are all different from the guys in the last round, they should watch me like a hawk and KILL me the first time I screw up. The real problem is there's no roleplaying in the RPGA.
johnkretzer 10-20-07, 12:14 AM	I think it's important to remember that the Forgotten Realms is a franchise first and foremost. It is a creation of Ed Greenwood as a book series but it's evolved well beyond that because he sold it to TSR and by proxy, they published it as an RPG setting. This means its changed and allowed Ed to publish much more about the series than any normal fantasy book series could possibly handle. Just a point. Ed Greenwood started the Realms as a place to set stories in. Then later when he found D&D he turned it into his D&D campaign world. That is what he sold to TSR. It wasn't a world for the novels. The Wheel of Time is ridiculously long and wordy for a fantasy series (God Bless you and rest in peace RJ) but it contains nowhere near the level of detail that the Realms does because we have many sourcebooks solely about the parts and places of the Realms as an RPG world. However, the changes started as soon as the first book series because of Doug Niles Moonshaes trilogy. While the "artistic vision" of the creator was compromised, that allowed three very good books to be published. It also led to more controversial decisions like Maztica, Kara-Tur, Zhakara, and the Tuigan Horde that didn't exist in Ed's original conception. Not to mention the Time of Troubles that was solely a Mega-Event for the Realms to switch to 2E. However, these events and re-editions allow the Realms to have flourished where I think only JRR Tolkien's books have continued to be packaged and reprinted for new generations so consistently. Like Star Wars' EU, the Forgotten Realms is a very successful and "living" universe. The long lasting elements of the Forgotten Realms franchise also results in the fact that artistic control can't be maintained but has allowed the Realms to move beyond a purely RPG to also be a Comic book series, novels, and several times has come close to becoming a television series. This is because fans, like you and me, want it to be. It also is what causes the executives to be able to continue publishing the set. Ironically, I'd say the RPG is probably the least financially successful element of all of it. Like comic books, the franchise actually makes more money from Spiderman merchandise and movies than Spiderman has ever made as a comic book. I agree with most of you said except that the RPG is the least financialy successful element of all of it. I mean looking at amazon.com what is the highest selling D&D product? I believe it isn't a novel but a soucebook. Also just a point the FR that was published wasn't solely Ed's they added somethings like the Moonshae's etc...but these changes were ok because it all still seemed to fit. Since the Time of Troubles it has moved thing farther away from what it was. It seems to me that these changes seem to be authors wanting to either put their mark on the Realms or have ideas that don't fit the Realms so they changed the Realms...
Charles Phipps 10-20-07, 12:19 AM	D+D is the Franchise. Forgotten Realms is a marketing tool. That's the premise under which I'm working. And its an erroneous one. Forgotten Realms is a distinct franchise from D&D because Drizzt Do'Urden isn't part of the D&D Franchise. He's a Forgotten Realms character. D&D is a franchise that includes the RPG portion of the Forgotten Realms franchise. Quite frankly, I think allowing the RPGA to have as much say over what happens as it's going to get is a colossal error. Those of us who aren't in the RPGA now have to kowtow to the organization and deal with it. Yes, I have a membership card because I play in the open every year. Fan input is always a dicey affair, but the fact that you assume they're dictating is a bit silly. Also, pretending that they're a body as opposed to individuals WHOM ARE ALSO GAMERS JUST LIKE US is rather elitist. It's like me saying "I love White Wolf but why do I have to deal with them pandering to those :censored: Larpers." Also just a point the FR that was published wasn't solely Ed's they added somethings like the Moonshae's etc...but these changes were ok because it all still seemed to fit. Since the Time of Troubles it has moved thing farther away from what it was. It seems to me that these changes seem to be authors wanting to either put their mark on the Realms or have ideas that don't fit the Realms so they changed the Realms... They said that right before third edition and its my opinion that third edition is the best that the Realms has to offer. Yes, it's possible that the Realms might become an unrecognizable lump of suck like the SAGA edition of Dragonlance (which, mystifying to me, has its fans too). However, I think its possible it just might not. Besides, Dragonlance is still releasing books set during the War of the Lance.
Fire_Wraith 10-20-07, 03:04 AM	I find it interesting that no one has brought up one of the real strengths of the Forgotten Realms brand - the Computer games. While the novels, and a certain dark elven ranger, have certainly brought a number of new fans to the Realms, the Realms have by far had the strongest presence in the digital world out of all the various D&D campaign worlds. The fact that many of these games, from the Gold Box Series (The Pool of Radiance series and Savage Frontier series being set in FR), the Eye of the Beholder series, to Baldur's Gate I and II (perhaps the best of them all, storywise), to the more recent Neverwinter Nights games, along with a host of other individual games set in the Realms. I'm sure there are more than a few people here that were introduced to the Realms by one of these games (myself included).
sillaric_culdanin 10-20-07, 05:50 AM	Alright, a couple of quick notes since a couple people have brought Amazon and its ever-changing bestseller lists. With regard to novels, on the general Books bestsellers list not a single Wotc published book appears (although Laurel K. Hamilton who writes for Ravenloft has onoe of her Merry Gentry books towards the end of the list). Now if you narrow that down to Sci-Fi/Fantasy Books then Orc King shows up at #6, but the only other WotC product is the Rules Compendium which appears at #36. Now for some truly interesting stuff if you go to the bestsellers list for Roleplaying Games & Fantasy under Puzzles and Games you will find that although WotC dominates this category (as it should) there are a number of surprises (at least for me). Rules Compendium tops the list, of course, but the next highest ranked gaming book is Dragons of Eberron. As a matter of fact after GHotR at #5 there isn't a single FR-specific book until Waterdeep shows up at #57. Of the setting-specific books the Eberron books show better overall, with two in the top 25. Even more shocking is that both the 4E player's handbook and monster manual (the DMG isn't listed yet) are already in the top 30 just based on preorders (and as an aside both have a release date of June 6, 2008 now). The reason for this is that it seems to me that maybe the Realms isn't selling quite as well as we would all hope... maybe the shake-up is designed to reverse the sagging sales that seem to have infected our beloved setting.
Rauric 10-20-07, 07:39 AM	Just a point. Ed Greenwood started the Realms as a place to set stories in. Then later when he found D&D he turned it into his D&D campaign world. That is what he sold to TSR. It wasn't a world for the novels. I agree with most of you said except that the RPG is the least financialy successful element of all of it. I mean looking at amazon.com what is the highest selling D&D product? I believe it isn't a novel but a soucebook. Also just a point the FR that was published wasn't solely Ed's they added somethings like the Moonshae's etc...but these changes were ok because it all still seemed to fit. Since the Time of Troubles it has moved thing farther away from what it was. It seems to me that these changes seem to be authors wanting to either put their mark on the Realms or have ideas that don't fit the Realms so they changed the Realms... Sourcebooks are pricey though. Novels are like 7 to 8 bucks. Someone would much rather save money on something that costs 30 bucks than 8 I believe. It is a mental thing. Saving money off of 8 dollars seems like nothing but saving off of 30 dallars makes ya feel frugal. ;) I think WOTC makes it's money from FR novels. Lots more people read books than roleplay. That is why Drizzt aint dead yet. Actually itt is the reason we have 20 plus books about him in the course of 20 years. I am sure he wanted to drop the character for a few years but if he didn't write stories about him someone else would have. Plus they will probably make more dough from PC games as well.
Charles Phipps 10-20-07, 10:45 AM	On the other hand, one can understand that change isn't always for the better. There's a reason that Bond films are reasonably generic. You can't... * Do an old Bond. * Do a chaste bond or married Bond (for very long) * Do a non-violent Bond * Resolve Bond's inner turmoil. The Franchise depends on keeping the elements that make them popular (toys, violence, and sex) in a reasonable crowd pleasing context. Deviating from this formula too much has the same probability as starting a new setting that's probably far less successful.
Asgetrion 10-20-07, 12:14 PM	Now if you narrow that down to Sci-Fi/Fantasy Books then Orc King shows up at #6, but the only other WotC product is the Rules Compendium which appears at #36. Hmmm... this feels a bit weird to me -- maybe I'm in the vocal minority, then, but I wouldn't buy 'The Orc King' just out of "curiosity" (towards 4E FR) and neither do I think it is a "solid" (in terms of literary quality) book enough to interest me in the least. Don't get me wrong -- I think it *is* a "milestone" novel in the Realms, from a general perspective, but still I'm a bit surprised to see that it's selling so well, because I've seen many fans showing their disapproval over this novel. This may even send the signal (to WoTC) that all the changes in 4E FR have been "right" and approved by the majority of the fans (which may even be the case)? Now for some truly interesting stuff if you go to the bestsellers list for Roleplaying Games & Fantasy under Puzzles and Games you will find that although WotC dominates this category (as it should) there are a number of surprises (at least for me). Rules Compendium tops the list, of course, but the next highest ranked gaming book is Dragons of Eberron. As a matter of fact after GHotR at #5 there isn't a single FR-specific book until Waterdeep shows up at #57. Of the setting-specific books the Eberron books show better overall, with two in the top 25. Even more shocking is that both the 4E player's handbook and monster manual (the DMG isn't listed yet) are already in the top 30 just based on preorders (and as an aside both have a release date of June 6, 2008 now). The reason for this is that it seems to me that maybe the Realms isn't selling quite as well as we would all hope... maybe the shake-up is designed to reverse the sagging sales that seem to have infected our beloved setting. The fact that the Rules Compendium is topping the list may indicate that many fans might indeed stick with playing 3E -- even those that have not yet transferred to 3.5 Edition, but might do so because they do not like what they've seen of 4E? I might buy this book, too, because I'll get a "reprinted" version of the 3.5 Edition rules set (we're still playing 3.0 in my group). If we assume that Eberron books sell better than FR ones, it might explain why they're trying to "force" FR into the same mold as Eberron. I'd really like to hear how GHotR has done in the "overall" sales -- most of the DMs I know (myself included) have bought it. But has it sold better than an average FR book? How about an average splat book, or an Eberron book?
MerrikCale 10-20-07, 12:29 PM	Hmmm... this feels a bit weird to me -- maybe I'm in the vocal minority, then, but I wouldn't buy 'The Orc King' just out of "curiosity" (towards 4E FR) and neither do I think it is a "solid" (in terms of literary quality) book enough to interest me in the least. you are very much in the minority as RAS books far outsell other realms novels and the like
Charles Phipps 10-20-07, 01:03 PM	Of course, my take is that fans are randomly making up accusations because they're a pessimistic bunch that prefers to rumor monger and slander than shell out 29.99 for a new book. So far, FR has been compared to.... * MMORPG * Eberron * Dragonlance SAGA * The End of The World ;-) But yes, it's the nature of a corporate beast that they always want to try and remain "Trendy"
Fabius Maximus 10-20-07, 05:29 PM	you are very much in the minority as RAS books far outsell other realms novels and the like Well, there is a saying here: "Crap tastes good. Billions of flies cannot err."
MerrikCale 10-20-07, 09:17 PM	Well, there is a saying here: "Crap tastes good. Billions of flies cannot err." perhaps, but I always liked RAS books myself
Asgetrion 10-20-07, 10:56 PM	Of course, my take is that fans are randomly making up accusations because they're a pessimistic bunch that prefers to rumor monger and slander than shell out 29.99 for a new book. So far, FR has been compared to.... * MMORPG * Eberron * Dragonlance SAGA * The End of The World ;-) But yes, it's the nature of a corporate beast that they always want to try and remain "Trendy" Hey, Dragonlance SAGA is a pretty cool rules set! ;) As for the others in your list, they seem to fit the bill quite well... at least, that's how I see it on basis of what we've heard so far of the changes taking place in FR. And why "shell out" money for a book if you don't like the contents? I am going to take a peek at 4E Core Books and FRCG at my local gaming store, but most likely I'm going to skip this edition and wait for 5E.
Charles Phipps 10-20-07, 11:08 PM	I don't see any similarity to MMORPGs or Eberron. Really, point them out please. Cause, I'm actually curious. (MMORPGs are just D&D anyway, so I'm trying to wrap my mind around that one unless 4E will have a Real Cash for Fictional Gold option)
Rauric 10-20-07, 11:36 PM	When people say it is being modeled LIKE Eberron I think they mean the treatment of gods and NPCs. EB has less gods than FR and it has less uber-NPCs than FR. I think it is a shame about the gods in a way. The Novel dept is the thing that turned them into the monstrosity that they are perceived to be.
Charles Phipps 10-20-07, 11:52 PM	To be honest, I felt that the pantheon was a bit too much like Greyhawks. A smaller pantheon is better but I can imagine people thinking otherwise.
msatran 10-21-07, 01:00 AM	I think the problem here is that they are trying to create pantheons based on a corporate model, and having pantheons based on a corporate model is sort of like trying to psychoanalyze a computer. It's comparing apples and oranges. Their choices of actions, in general, stink. Do you really think that Wizards will make the smart move and show up at Origins next year to promote D+D 4e three weeks out of the box? They would if they gave a damn about the gaming community. This is why I think the corporate model is flawed for RPGs. Just make the worlds and then let them roll. The constant reset buttons for theme make me highly annoyed.
Charles Phipps 10-21-07, 01:16 AM	Is it really the corporate model, though? Richard might think simplifying it is good for the story.
msatran 10-21-07, 01:21 AM	The entire point of the Forgotten Realms, Charles, was that it was never simple, and there was always another mystery to be discovered. Instead of a game for smart people, you have a game for morons. I think that's fairly clear.
Charles Phipps 10-21-07, 01:24 AM	The entire point of the Forgotten Realms, Charles, was that it was never simple, and there was always another mystery to be discovered. Instead of a game for smart people, you have a game for morons. I think that's fairly clear. A game, which As Designed by Ed Greenwood, never had huge pantheons to begin with but was only the Faerun pantheon. I think fans have to make a note that simple does not necessarily mean worse. Toril has accumulated a rather ridiculous amount of fluff over the years. Honestly, I wouldn't mind if they formally divorced Kara Tur from the setting along with all the other "grafted" worlds but it's clear they're not so they're not changing as much as they could to bring it back to Ed's original vision.
Dark Wizard 10-21-07, 01:25 AM	Is it really the corporate model, though? Richard might think simplifying it is good for the story. Personally I think it should just be "a story," one of many. The designers see it as one big single story. The thing that really kept me in the Realms once I found my way to the setting was that it can have many things going on all at once at varying rates and times. The GHotR tagged on 10 years at the end from the current timeline, yet they bunched all the deicides all in the last two years. It just seemed like such a convenient way of wrapping things up for the new edition.
msatran 10-21-07, 01:28 AM	This is what professional writers who tell amateurs what to do and what not to do call "A beer truck ending." With a beer truck ending, main characters suddenly take actions that they have no business taking or are totally out of character, and then suddenly, they get hit by a beer truck, and die.
johnkretzer 10-21-07, 01:33 AM	(MMORPGs are just D&D anyway, so I'm trying to wrap my mind around that one unless 4E will have a Real Cash for Fictional Gold option) Just wait for the RPGA...yeah I know that it is not officialy condoned(atleast I hope it isn't) but I know it happens...
Charles Phipps 10-21-07, 01:42 AM	This is what professional writers who tell amateurs what to do and what not to do call "A beer truck ending." With a beer truck ending, main characters suddenly take actions that they have no business taking or are totally out of character, and then suddenly, they get hit by a beer truck, and die. Since the first books of the Forgotten Realms, that's been the case. I believe that the "Sun Rises and Sets on Khelben" Moonstars plot, the Manshoon Wars, and Xvim are still some of the silliest plots of all time. By comparison, this is small potatoes. Though I am amazed that people hated and complained about Midnight and her NG/interfering nature fo years and now are complaining greatly about her death. Where was the uproar when Khelben died?
msatran 10-21-07, 01:45 AM	There was no uproar when Khelben died because he died heroically doing what he was born to do instead of dying stupidly. Steven Schend did a fantastic job! If you're going to send a character out, send him out the right way!
johnkretzer 10-21-07, 01:49 AM	Though I am amazed that people hated and complained about Midnight and her NG/interfering nature fo years and now are complaining greatly about her death. Where was the uproar when Khelben died? I think if you actualy look at the people complaining about "Midnight and her NG/interfering nature" and the people who are now complaining about her death...you'll find it to be two different groups of people. As I have said many times before just chalking up fans complaints to just 'fan whining and you can't please them no matter what you do' isn't really looking at it correctly. Also from what I understand Khelban's death was a good death that was in character and didn't just end his story( he lives on though his children) though I haven't actualy read it so I admitt that is hearsay.
Charles Phipps 10-21-07, 01:55 AM	There was no uproar when Khelben died because he died heroically doing what he was born to do instead of dying stupidly. Steven Schend did a fantastic job! If you're going to send a character out, send him out the right way! I actually didn't think it was appropriate for him. Khelben is unceremoniously replaced by a nobody at his tower with no single hymn or hew to his past in the passing of one of the Realm's greatest mages. But I suppose it's a case of can't please everybody.
18DELTA 10-21-07, 02:07 AM	Well, there is a saying here: "Crap tastes good. Billions of flies cannot err." Fabius that is so going into my sig!!!:)
Dark Wizard 10-21-07, 02:13 AM	With Mystra's death the designers didn't fix any problem, they didn't deal with it, try to state the lore more clearly. They merely got rid of that entire piece of the Realms. Besides, the NG aspect of Mystra was dealt with going on what, 14 real years now and more in game years? The company essentially just admitted (wrongly) that Mystra dominated the Realms in all ways to the detriment of the setting and the only way to fix it was to forcibly beat the setting into shape. Regardless of my preferences towards the Realms, that just seems like a "dirty" way to fix anything. It still leaves tons of baggage to deal with, or going by how events unfolded to gloss over. As for Khelben, he at least had a novel to tell the end of his story not some blurb in a sourcebook. He left a potentially huge legacy to fill in for him, his apprentice, his wife, his twin children and an entire lost city. Also, going by what I've read of Khelben, he probably wouldn't want his passing to be well known, I mean, he has many plots contingent on people thinking things are how they've always been. Oh, I think a big difference lies in Khelben's death not disrupting things a great deal or ending in a line as ominous as this, "Sages in centuries to come mark the Weave's destruction in the Year of Blue Fire as the end of the old world, and the terrible beginning of the new." Wizard gets points for stirring the pot, though they didn't really contribute ingredients to the soup and instead just set up dietary restrictions for everyone. If this changes, more people may come around.
Charles Phipps 10-21-07, 02:24 AM	"Sages in centuries to come mark the Weave's destruction in the Year of Blue Fire as the end of the old world, and the terrible beginning of the new." We all know that means nothing, right?
johnkretzer 10-21-07, 02:28 AM	We all know that means nothing, right? Or it could mean everything. With what they are saying I think it says exactly what it says.
18DELTA 10-21-07, 02:29 AM	The entire point of the Forgotten Realms, Charles, was that it was never simple, and there was always another mystery to be discovered. Instead of a game for smart people, you have a game for morons. I think that's fairly clear. I agree with you in the fact that the Realms were never meant to be simple from its beginning till now. WotC wants the Realms to be simple and moronic for the Living Realms masses. Sorry dude but thats the facts of life.:( This is the flaw of having a moving time line, when WotC goes and changes stuff around we get the Spellplague! My :twocents:
sillaric_culdanin 10-21-07, 02:52 AM	Guys, did you look at the sales stats from Amazon? The Realms isn't exactly selling like hotcakes... at least it doesn't seem so. Rule Compendium (which I used on Thursday, btw) is easily the most useful tool they've produced since the 3.5 player's handbook for DMs... I really wouldn't take it as a sign that people are riding against the change to 4e... especially when the 4e player's handbook is already at #17 and the monster manual is at #20 (both moved up since I posted originally last night) just in pre-orders. 4e is gonna hit with a bang it seems. Charles brought up a valid point earlier about the irony of Mystra's destruction causing this sort of uproar when just a couple years ago (when I last hunted the Boards regularly) it seemed that every other hot thread was about someone or other being against Mystra's omnipotent power or silly (for a goddess of something so unaligned as magic) NG alignment. For all we know those fans whose opinion led to the current design decisions won-out because they are the ones that buy more books? I wouldn't begin to know how they could have gathered such data but frankly Hasbro is a huge friggin' company and who knows what sort of resources they have to bring to bear. With regard to those surprised by the fact that Bob's newest book is selling so well... I guess I have to say... well, DUH! You don't get contracted to write 20 or so novels about the same character if they don't sell incredibly well. Novel-wise I'm pretty sure that's there's more words in print about Drizzt than the entire rest of the FR cast put together. The novels sell incredibly well... something to think about, before the release the Storm Dragon (an Eberron novel by James Wyatt and the first hardcover for Keith's world) it was listed in a headline on both Bloomberg and Yahoo Finance for Hasbro's stock... I follow Hasbro regularly because a I own a bit of stock and I can't recall an announcement like that for an FR sourcebook in memory. The RPG books are a niche industry for Hasbro and even if 4e was to fail (which I hightly doubt) I would bet the title to my house that they would still publish FR novels (and probably Eberron novels as well).
Dark Wizard 10-21-07, 03:00 AM	We all know that means nothing, right? How do we know it means nothing? Have you read the 4E FRCG? We can't tell for certain yet, but why put something like that line if nothing happens? I really don't care for the answers to that potential question, especially if its just for marketing gimmicks. Things might end up worst than they are now with how the Realms are perceived by newcomers and non-fans. It would just be more of that big Realms mess they would say, the same its been for 20 years. That would be annoying because it didn't have to be like that. Overall, the end of the GHotR seems like a giant misstep to me. They saw fit to reveal many of these destructive changes in that book but to see the constructive changes we have to wait a few months. I don't know, maybe my attention span is just short, I grow bored of the new Realms rapidly and it isn't even out yet. I mean this with all honestly. It seems like I have to jump through too many hoops to get into the new Realms. This is not the same as the season finale of a TV show with a cliffhanger. I run my one FR game in the meanwhile and in the middle of it I might just find something else more worthwhile or decide I like where my Realms games are headed and depart from the new Realms. So I say 'meh' to the whole thing, they just made it harder to keep me as a fan as the new FR has to be that much better to reignite by interest.
sillaric_culdanin 10-21-07, 03:13 AM	DW, aren't you guilty of what you just blamed Charles for? He hasn't read the FRCG, yet... but neither have you. I respect your opinion of what's been released but I have to say that having followed the FR since before the ToT (and gaming in it the entire time as a DM) I have always loved the FR as one grand story unfolding before my eyes. It was complex in a way that even Tolkien never approached but I still enjoyed the Realms as a grand tale with both the novels and sourcebooks as little chapters or tiny threads in the overall tapestry. Although I drool over history bits (I loved Lost Empires and Serpent Kingdoms) I am a full-blown addict when it comes to current events (which was why Powers of Faerun was easily my favorite sourcebook before GHotR came out). The idea of filling in 10 or 100 years with fun novels and history notes in sourcebooks for the new edition makes me giddily excited. Now, that being said, I don't like ruining the end of the story with the Orc King 1400s stuff. Have a bunch of novels detail the events between 1377ish and whenever the next FRCG starts and the FRCG fill in the gaps that don't get novel treatments but why give away the end so soon? Its like when you watch a show on Fox like Gordon Ramsay's hilarious Kitchen Nightmares and they show those stupid little preview bits right before commericals that show the best part... I just don't get it. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't mind where the Realms is going... I just wish I could have enjoyed the process rather than been shown Vader throwing Palpatine into the Death Star II's power core before ever watching Star Wars... its just not fair.
Dark Wizard 10-21-07, 03:30 AM	DW, aren't you guilty of what you just blamed Charles for? He hasn't read the FRCG, yet... but neither have you. Unless WotC really chickens out of this something has changed in the Realms going by GHotR, but it's true, pre-emptive judgment is wrong from both views. I like to think of it as him doing the same thing those of his discussion position asks others not to do. There's a lot of that going around lately. I've refrained from using that line on anyone, but that just made it easy to use the old rhetorical question. :P I respect your opinion of what's been released but I have to say that having followed the FR since before the ToT (and gaming in it the entire time as a DM) I have always loved the FR as one grand story unfolding before my eyes. It was complex in a way that even Tolkien never approached but I still enjoyed the Realms as a grand tale with both the novels and sourcebooks as little chapters or tiny threads in the overall tapestry. Although I drool over history bits (I loved Lost Empires and Serpent Kingdoms) I am a full-blown addict when it comes to current events (which was why Powers of Faerun was easily my favorite sourcebook before GHotR came out). The idea of filling in 10 or 100 years with fun novels and history notes in sourcebooks for the new edition makes me giddily excited. Now, that being said, I don't like ruining the end of the story with the Orc King 1400s stuff. Have a bunch of novels detail the events between 1377ish and whenever the next FRCG starts and the FRCG fill in the gaps that don't get novel treatments but why give away the end so soon? Its like when you watch a show on Fox like Gordon Ramsay's hilarious Kitchen Nightmares and they show those stupid little preview bits right before commericals that show the best part... I just don't get it. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't mind where the Realms is going... I just wish I could have enjoyed the process rather than been shown Vader throwing Palpatine into the Death Star II's power core before ever watching Star Wars... its just not fair. I guess this sums it up for me, WotC made a bad movie trailer that gave away all the big twists and they have to work extra harder to make sure the movie has enough interesting new parts to make it good. In my opinion that's not taking a risk, it's taking an unnecessary risk, but it's their setting property I just play in it once in a while with a novel read here or there. ;)
Fire_Wraith 10-21-07, 06:35 AM	Charles brought up a valid point earlier about the irony of Mystra's destruction causing this sort of uproar when just a couple years ago (when I last hunted the Boards regularly) it seemed that every other hot thread was about someone or other being against Mystra's omnipotent power or silly (for a goddess of something so unaligned as magic) NG alignment. For all we know those fans whose opinion led to the current design decisions won-out because they are the ones that buy more books? I wouldn't begin to know how they could have gathered such data but frankly Hasbro is a huge friggin' company and who knows what sort of resources they have to bring to bear. It's a mistake to consider the noise generated on internet forums as the sole source of opinion in fandom. Consider this - prior to hearing about these changes, I never bothered to read these forums, let alone post here. Why? I had no reason to. I was happy with the way things were, and I imagine a lot of others were, too. Others may not have been happy, but weren't aware of the boards... et cetera. Others even now may be just as upset (or more) with the new changes, but aren't posting here for the same sort of reasons. Bottom line, if WoTC is basing their decisions on the small group of opinionated fans who wanted Mystra gone... well, it's quite a leap of logic to assume that's the majority opinion. But then, it may not be a question of whether this is about majority or minority opinion, to begin with.
sillaric_culdanin 10-21-07, 06:54 AM	To tell the truth, I think they're basing their decisions on the sales numbers... not on the opinions of any one group or another. To put it simply there are probably a couple hundred, maybe a thousand (though I doubt it) people who post regularly on the FR boards. Even if every one of them purchased, or didn't purchase for that matter, a particular product it wouldn't make or break that products ability to meet its sales goals. As I said, Hasbro is a huge company and they've probably been polling and focusing grouping and polling for a year (more likely two) about the changes they're making to the Realms and D&D in general... well that's my assumption anyway, could be wrong but I've worked for big companies like that in the past and they rarely make that sort of mistake... they may create a bad product, it happens alot in the gaming industry and in that it fails on its own merits, but I really don't see them walking blindly into the Abyss.
Reneshat 10-21-07, 07:17 AM	I have been asked by the WizO's in a private email to stop posting messages with my new "Signature." So I finally read this post, and I find that you have stopped your signature. This makes my signature, which of course was poking fun at yours, pointless. In a way this is a blessing, seeing how I had already used my original ideas and was having to stop and ponder for sometimes upwards of minutes at the end of each post for some other utterly ridiculous and negative thing to say about Rich Baker. Still I can't help but feel a slight pain as I acknowledge the passing of something that has brought me many minutes of joy. Oh well, there are more important things to waste my time at work with. Rich Baker is a dirty commie.
Reneshat 10-21-07, 07:25 AM	I don't want to go on a later adventure with someone who has the same +3 Intelligent sword I do. Ha, shows how much you know. Living Greyhawk never gives out items as cool as a +3 intelligent sword. Heck you are lucky if you get "access" to a +1 stick, at level 12. Of course with +5 wands and wizard implements, +1 sticks will suddenly become useful in 4ed, so they will have to change their treasure "access" for Living Forgotten Realms. After all, we wouldn't want players to get "access" to a potentially game unbalancing item like a +1 stick.
Reneshat 10-21-07, 07:33 AM	Just wait for the RPGA...yeah I know that it is not officialy condoned(atleast I hope it isn't) but I know it happens... You can't sell your gold. Your kobold card on the other hand....
Rauric 10-21-07, 08:21 AM	Again I think it is sales. Possibly the increase of Eberron sales. If this is true that means a new campaign world that doesn't have the years of fans and years of novels backing it up is doing well. Maybe better than the Realms. IF that is true and if FR sales are not doing so hot (or not as well as the Execs want) then this is a reason for the change. Alot of fans/players that I know were just happy that they are not killing El or Waterdeep. The rest are going to pick up the books anyway and keep the things they want. Not one has told me they are going to ignore the realms. Plus strictly EB fans I have talked to say they will try the Realms now. Of course that is just a group of 30 gamers in a gaming store, it is really not any decent form of marketing research. It is just smalltime "goob" research.;)
Fire_Wraith 10-21-07, 11:35 AM	Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the change is entirely driven by flagging sales (which I'm not convinced of). The goal of any sort of marketing campaign is to expand the customer base. It really doesn't take a college degree in marketing to figure out that the best way to do this is to keep your old customers, while attracting new ones. Now, anytime you make a change, you may well lose some people, but as long as that falls under a certain number, it's probably not a big deal, especially if the new customers coming in exceed the old ones going out. However, trying to change your product to become more like something that it isn't has a possibility of irritating your current customers, and failing to attract the sort of people who already liked the other product to begin with. A classic (no pun intended) example of this would be when Coca-cola changed their formula and came out with "New Coke" back in the 80s... and most people hated it, because it was too much like Pepsi. Coke sales dropped, and they then started selling "Classic Coke" using the old formula... and pretty soon New Coke disappeared from the shelves. In the case of RPGs, there's a bit more to it. It's not a matter of buying breakfast cereal, soft drink, or a sports car. As we have seen here, RPG fans are oftentimes rather involved in their hobby, and the core customer base pays a lot of attention to these sorts of details and changes. Furthermore, there's another very important fact to keep in mind, and that is that unlike many other hobbies, there are largely three main ways that people get brought in as players of D&D/Forgotten Realms/etc: 1) Novels 2) Computer Games 3) Word of Mouth The third is perhaps the most important, because it's the one that most directly leads to actual D&D gaming, whereas the other two may or may not lead you to playing the tabletop game (as opposed to general interest in the Realms overall). The absolute best source of word of mouth is... well, I would tend to think it's the longtime players and DMs that are fans of the Realms. Thus, I would think that WoTC would generally want to at least try to avoid causing a major uproar among a number of the longtime players, because not looking to take care of the needs of their established customer base could hurt sales in the long run, both in immediate losses of people who don't buy the books, but in people they tell not to buy the books (or people they don't tell to do so, for that matter).
MarkusTay63 10-21-07, 01:54 PM	No one sends me PM's to stop... I feel left out. :( All I get are warnings that I shouldn't bypass their inefectual filters by using the word that is both a female dog and a slang term for complaining. :P BTW - If they really are serious about this whole DI thing, they need to get filters that CAN'T be easily bypassed... and servers that don't crash the first time a goodly number of people log-on. If anything has given me so little faith in 4e, it's their 'countdown to doom' when 4e was announced. It clearly shows that their ideas are too big for their infrastructure, on ALL fronts. I understand that it is cheaper to hire 'new kids', but the quality you get from them is sub-par then what you get from an 'old hat'. Hire back some of the old-timers and this thing might stand a chance. Too much 'young blood' trying to change everything. And by 'young-blood', I'm not talking about age, I'm talking about people who have little to NO experience with FR. A friend of mine used to work for Hewlitt-Packard. He was a regional salesman who had but three clients - each good for about 5-20 MILLION a year (I'm not talking about home computers here). After working for them for 25 years, they decided they could hire three college kids to do his job for the same money. They also asked HIM to train his replacements (which he DIDN'T). Two years later they begged him back when they lost their clients - with a big salary increase. :D Bringing in new blood might seem to satisfy the bottom line, but there is a reason why people love the 'old gaurd'. As far as I'm concerned, FR has gone from a beloved world to a product - one they try to produce as cost-effectively as possible. They are making the same mistakes that Games Workshop made when they went from a small, caring company (Citadel) to a mega-corporation. Their decisions have alienated their core customers, most of whom have 'jumped ship' for other companies. Their forums have closed down (do to the rampant negativity - sound familiar?) and their quarterlies have been tanking for the last couple years. I guess my argument is this - making money is all fine and good, but NOT when you lose sight of what you are doing.
18DELTA 10-21-07, 06:49 PM	:bow: MarkusTay63 :bow:
Fingoldfin 10-21-07, 07:21 PM	MarkusTay63 and Fire Wraith: Well said.:clap:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-21-07, 07:24 PM	Though I am amazed that people hated and complained about Midnight and her NG/interfering nature fo years and now are complaining greatly about her death. I personally NEVER had any problems with Mystra. Her alignment was fine, and she didn't interfere more than any other deity. So, there's no hypocrisy in my dissatisfaction with her death. I'd think that most of the people who disliked her are happy with the recent turn of events--in fact, that's the impression I'm getting around here! Where was the uproar when Khelben died? Oh, people were (and still are) upset. I was pretty POed at Khelben's death. However, Steven Schend wrote a great novel about that particular event--it felt like an organic development of Khelben's story, and gave us some new plot threads to be excited about. So by and large, Khelben's death was probably accepted more than, say, Halaster's death because it wasn't done in such an arbitrary, "we really need to get rid of this NPC" type of way.
sillaric_culdanin 10-21-07, 08:25 PM	Maybe I'm a bit weird, but I didn't mind Halaster's death either. I thought that they at least sent the old bat on his way with a bit of heroic pride... even if he failed miserably at whatever he was attempting to do to hold off the Spellplague.
18DELTA 10-21-07, 08:25 PM	Yeah and then they go and dump the "Spellplague" on us to ruin everything. I wonder how many gods are going to be in each region of the Living Realms, cause we cant clutter up our nice neat little game region with a bunch of gods.:rolleyes: Rant over!:D
sillaric_culdanin 10-21-07, 08:40 PM	Fire_Wraith, While I agree that word of mouth has the most direct tie to actual RPG involvement I have to believe that the number of players brough to D&D by the novels and CRPG games numerically outweighs the number brought in because someone said to a friend, 'Hey, you wanna try this?". I think you're forgetting the fact that D&D still, even in our enlightened age ;), still carries many GIGANTIC taboos along with it. I'd bet that the reemergence of the fantasy genre in film (LotR, Harry Potter and the other less successful stuff - read Eragon, etc) has had as much overall numerical influence as word of mouth in the last 5-6 years. The problem with the assumption you're making about losing the core of the fan base is that the people that frequent these boards of representative of it... and frankly we may not be at all. The boards are a microcosm and have traditionally attracted and retained a certain type of fan more than others. In my experience the main faction within the Boards population (at least those that post the 'most' visibly) are Realms purists who love the Realms as close to Ed's vision as possible and are only rarely surprised by their ability to enjoy a product produced by WotC or a novel not written by Ed, Elaine (and now Steve, who rocks btw). Unfortunately for those of that bent, they don't invest in consumer products the way non-purists do... or at least that's my assumption. In the end, you may be right... WotC's 4e Realms may be like New Coke... but then again it could the hybrid car or frankly Toyota after year 2004. It all comes down to whether the product they create is of a high quality or not... New Coke didn't fail because it was New, it failed because it sucked. I don't agree that the changes they've made are guaranteed to break the Realms, make the Realms not the Realms or even be bad literature. I for one think the changes may make the Realms an even cooler place to DM in, play in and read novels about... and frankly I make a lot of money, don't have a mom, wife or priest against my purchasing everything under the sun with the FR logo on it and I have a great gaming group to share it with.
msatran 10-25-07, 11:43 AM	The problem is not 4th edition. The problem is what they're doing to the Realms to make it 4th Edition. 4th Edition mechanics? Sure, you can have streamlined mechanics, I don't have a problem with that. I have problems with some of the ideas (Orb, Staff, Wand most notably) and the action system as they've presented it. It's the FLAVOR that makes the problems. In fact, if they had hit us with this out of the blue, I would have definitely told them to **** me. Succubi are Devils? WHAT? Light the crack pipe, ladies and gentlemen, the theme has been thrown out with the bathwater. It's forcing the Realms to fit the FLAVOR of 4th edition that's the problem here rather than changing the mechanics. Mechanically, you can have any event you want. But the event that they chose (Rather than some sort of human determined warfare, or character driven threat) was just another big mystical brouhaha with no character significance or good storytelling potential. Where is the storytelling potential in magical disease? They could have told a great story about how the Pasha of Calimshan decides for some reason that Caladnei needs to be in Calimshan, and that this miserable ***** of a woman should not defile the Cormyrean regent with her touch, blah blah blah, it interferes with his political standing and his trade agreements, even more blah blah, how can such a potentate as he be offended by his lessers so? And so, insulted, he gathers his army and goes to war with Cormyr. That would level two of the most powerful countries in the world, decimate thousands of mages, and kill thousands of people.
Charles Phipps 10-25-07, 06:32 PM	And so, insulted, he gathers his army and goes to war with Cormyr. That would level two of the most powerful countries in the world, decimate thousands of mages, and kill thousands of people. Well putting aside it's horribly misogynist nature as a plot (I do have to say that Caladnei's love affairs are an interesting thing in the "So Saith Ed" thread that will be posted soon-Ed was quite enlightening to me), It only affects Cormyr and Calisham. Really something utterly irrelevant to most of my games. It needs to effect the entire world.
sillaric_culdanin 10-25-07, 06:51 PM	What Charles said is correct, although it would likely draw in some others as well, it certainly wouldn't be world-spanning (aside from the fact that there is no sovereign of all of Calimshan, only Calimport itself ;)). You could of course expand the idea and say a dozen such pointless wars erupted across the face of the continent... but isn't that even more contrived than the Spellplague? In the end, WotC won't please everyone but if we want the Realms to survive (fiscally that is) and continue to get published they have to make money. Since I don't think anyone posting on these boards is currently managing a successful game/book publishing company, we really aren't in a place to criticize their decisions until we see the product. People point to the fact that the overly-verbal Eberron fans managed to win a battle by halting the move of their timeline... but to be honest I think it was a stupid bit of caving to the vocal minority. I was very disappointed not to see what even the near future held for Eberron, but... whatagonna do? For me, I can't wait to see what the Spellplague does/doesn't do to the Realms. I can't wait to see what the Realms looks like in 1385, or better yet 1485. If I don't think my players will like playing in the post-Spellplague Realms... we won't play there. I'll keep the game in the current century and maybe use the Spellplague in the future when we decide to actually start playing with the 4e ruleset. That's me, though. To each their own (and here's a friendly Nah nah nah NAH NAH :p that I get to see the Realms in the future ;)). No one is taking away your Realms... your Realms lives in your mind. The Realms on print is what its real owners (WotC) see fit to show us of it. Sad but true. I never wanted to see Batman with a silver cod-piece... but just because I've followed Batman/DC since I was 6 doens't mean that Batman and his entire wicked mythos are destroyed.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-25-07, 07:06 PM	People point to the fact that the overly-verbal Eberron fans managed to win a battle by halting the move of their timeline... but to be honest I think it was a stupid bit of caving to the vocal minority.[/I] I still think it's possible that WotC didn't cave at all--it was a planned publicity stunt. Lord Karsus brought up that theory, and while it is just a supposition, I wouldn't have any trouble believing it.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-25-07, 07:08 PM	To each their own (and here's a friendly Nah nah nah NAH NAH :p that I get to see the Realms in the future ;)). So do I...it's just a different future than how WotC has envisioned it.;) I'm totally happy with that. I can shape the future myself, instead of having it dictated to me.
sillaric_culdanin 10-25-07, 07:28 PM	Such equinamity... why so much vitriol about the changes if you don't really care? I'm not poking, I'm honestly curious. :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-25-07, 07:34 PM	Such equinamity... why so much vitriol about the changes if you don't really care? I'm not poking, I'm honestly curious. :) Oh really? Your question strikes me as both loaded and disingenuous (seriously). Did you see any vitriol in my post? I didn't think that post was vitriolic.
sillaric_culdanin 10-25-07, 07:39 PM	I'm sorry, I should have made myself more clear. I wasn't referring to that specific post... more the general theme of your posts anytime the 4e changes are mentioned. As a rule I don't ask 'loaded' questions and my wife beat any disingenuousness (is that a word?) out of me years ago. She's a master at rhetoric and forensics... I couldn't get away with it if I tried ;). Also, as a rule since you and I haven't ever posted to each other directly before... if I put a smiley in a post it means that I'm being serious (as in, when I say I'm honestly curious... I really am :)).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-25-07, 07:45 PM	I'm sorry, I should have made myself more clear. I wasn't referring to that specific post... more the general theme of your posts anytime the 4e changes are mentioned. As a rule I don't ask 'loaded' questions and my wife beat any disingenuousness (is that a word?) out of me years ago. She's a master at rhetoric and forensics... I couldn't get away with it if I tried ;). Also, as a rule since you and I haven't ever posted to each other directly before... if I put a smiley in a post it means that I'm being serious (as in, when I say I'm honestly curious... I really am :)). Disingenuous is definitely a word: dis·in·gen·u·ous (dĭs'ĭn-jěn'yōō-əs) Pronunciation Key adj. Not straightforward or candid; insincere or calculating: "an ambitious, disingenuous, philistine, and hypocritical operator, who ... exemplified ... the most disagreeable traits of his time" (David Cannadine). Pretending to be unaware or unsophisticated; faux-naïf. Maybe you were sincere. If indeed that is the case, I apologize for not being nice to you. But I really, really dislike being told I'm vitriolic when that's not the case. I've explained my thoughts on the matter so many times (and in usually a neutral tone, I think) that I am exhausted by it. The way you asked your question just p*ssed me off, quite frankly. I don't like the upcoming changes. I also do not intend to use them. But I still don't see why I should not state my opinion about them. Maybe I've repeated myself too often...but people who disagree with me have been repeating themselves too. If disagreeing with what WotC decides to do is "vitriolic", well, then I guess I'm vitriolic. But I'm quite sure that's not what the word means.
sillaric_culdanin 10-25-07, 08:00 PM	I meant disingenuousness, not disingenuous. Call vitriol what you like, you are among some dozen or so posters that spring instantly to mind when I think about those who expend energy to little or no purpose in opposing changes that are already made and ready for print... or close to it. While I agree that you seem to be opposed vociferously... the overall theme on the Boards these days (not including Charles' many threads) is very much about trashing the Realms design team from just about every angle. Playing innocent is... hmmm.... disingenuous, maybe? You see, I posted nice last time because I really hadn't meant offense, yet you give me a half-hearted 'I guess if that's what you meant, then sorry'. I could go back and quote back to you the comments you've posted in the past that I find vitriolic but you'd probably just get p*ssed off at me again. If you want sincerity or kindness... give it first. Lesson for life.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-25-07, 08:13 PM	I meant disingenuousness, not disingenuous. Call vitriol what you like, you are among some dozen or so posters that spring instantly to mind when I think about those who expend energy to little or no purpose in opposing changes that are already made and ready for print... or close to it. I think I'll be the one to decide whether or not I'm wasting my energy, thank you. While I agree that you seem to be opposed vociferously... the overall theme on the Boards these days (not including Charles' many threads) is very much about trashing the Realms design team from just about every angle. Playing innocent is... hmmm.... disingenuous, maybe? Umm, I'm not "playing innocent". I've been pretty straightfoward about my opinions, from the changes to the FR design team. I know of other work that certain people on the current design team have done, and I do not think those guys are the greatest thing since sliced bread. But I also don't think I've been excessively nasty about it, either. You see, I posted nice last time because I really hadn't meant offense, yet you give me a half-hearted 'I guess if that's what you meant, then sorry'. I could go back and quote back to you the comments you've posted in the past that I find vitriolic but you'd probably just get p*ssed off at me again. If you want sincerity or kindness... give it first. Lesson for life. Oh, please. I don't think you're in any position to be giving me "life lessons", and I explained why I was upset. I said that if you were sincere, I was sorry, and I meant it. If that's still not good enough, too bad.
Charles Phipps 10-25-07, 08:52 PM	I find the most amusing part in that I've suddenly become the Realms 4E Defense Fund Leader. And I'm a huge Mystra/Helm/Chosen fan.
MarkusTay63 10-25-07, 09:02 PM	And I don't like any of them, yet I'm against the changes (as written). Go figure. :rolleyes:
Dark Wizard 10-26-07, 12:14 AM	"Change places!"
johnkretzer 10-26-07, 03:19 AM	People point to the fact that the overly-verbal Eberron fans managed to win a battle by halting the move of their timeline... but to be honest I think it was a stupid bit of caving to the vocal minority. This funny as I believe that most if not all the changes of 4th edition are the result of them caving into a vocal minority. I also think their market research was very short sighted and skewed. I was very disappointed not to see what even the near future held for Eberron, but... whatagonna do? I am happy that my and my players vision will be allowed to grow naturaly without haveing to adjust future soucebooks of things that don't fit. For me, I can't wait to see what the Spellplague does/doesn't do to the Realms. I can't wait to see what the Realms looks like in 1385, or better yet 1485. As I have stated why would I since it is built on things that are largely inconsistent with what has happened in the past...no not really interested. No one is taking away your Realms... your Realms lives in your mind. The Realms on print is what its real owners (WotC) see fit to show us of it. Sad but true. I never wanted to see Batman with a silver cod-piece... but just because I've followed Batman/DC since I was 6 doens't mean that Batman and his entire wicked mythos are destroyed. They put Batman in a silver codpiece????? :eek: That is besides the point. Sure they have the right to do whatever they want to with it. But we have the right to critize them for it...or are you saying that people shouldn't be able to discuss their opinion about things like movie trailers? Or the back of a novel blub?
AffableDoomwalker 10-26-07, 06:40 AM	I suppose my greatest concern is my deep-seated fear of the unknown. Which isn't at all helped by what I already know. Earlier someone called AGHotR a bad movie trailer, I disagree, movie trailers don't let you in on the end of the movie. The question that's been tugging at me is "whats the motivation?" Really, what is it? I can't help but wonder if this isn't a Time of Troubles ReDux, which really doesn't bother me all that much (I loved the time of troubles), but really, really bothers me; when 5th edition comes out will there be yet ANOTHER cataclysmic death-orgy? Is this becoming a trend? Do the guys in marketing go "Oop! Looks like another edition is on the horizon, get to writin' boys, this is gonna be a big one" when this sort of stuff comes up? Are they banking on the past success of a previous framework (that also met with serious opposition, but ultimately ended well for most everyone, if I recall) in hopes of a repeat performance? If so, are they so confident in their own abilities that the go ahead and give us the so-called 'juicy bits' ahead of time? Rich Bakers response to the backlash is either wholly honest or an excellent bluff. If the former, then I'm almost certain of corporate bureaucratic stupidity creeping into what should be an entirely artistic and creative process (arrogance). Of course, it could be honest to God faith in their plans for the future of the realms. If the latter, then... well, its the latter. I'm clearly unhappy with the changes, and honestly, I think I'd have been a lot less displeased had I found out after I'd bought the 5th ed. FRCS, and the information not come in a collection of footnotes, neatly packaged under an oxymoron; at least Bhaal went out with a bang. Quite frankly, as a company, Wizards has pretty much confused the everloving hell out of me.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-26-07, 10:26 AM	That is besides the point. Sure they have the right to do whatever they want to with it. But we have the right to critize them for it...or are you saying that people shouldn't be able to discuss their opinion about things like movie trailers? Or the back of a novel blub? That's correct. If we don't like it, we should keep our damn mouths shut about it!
Mr_Miscellany 10-26-07, 08:57 PM	Just a point. Ed Greenwood started the Realms as a place to set stories in. Then later when he found D&D he turned it into his D&D campaign world. That is what he sold to TSR. It wasn't a world for the novels. Incorrect. The setting was created as a place for Greenwood to set fictional fantasy stories in. One Comes, Unheralded, To Zirta is just such a fictional, pre-D&D story written by Greenwood and set in the Realms. Later Greenwood adapted the Realms for use as a D&D setting for his home campaign. But that didn't stop him from creating fiction that was based in the Realms. Similarly the sale of the Realms to TSR was not a "D&D Setting" only sale, as the concurrent publishing of the first Moonshae novels shows. Those novels were set in the Realms and the Moonshae's themselves were included as part of the setting with the release of the Gray Box set. From the start, the Realms were a setting for use in playing D&D and as a backdrop for novel fiction.
johnkretzer 10-27-07, 05:56 AM	Incorrect. The setting was created as a place for Greenwood to set fictional fantasy stories in. One Comes, Unheralded, To Zirta is just such a fictional, pre-D&D story written by Greenwood and set in the Realms. Later Greenwood adapted the Realms for use as a D&D setting for his home campaign. But that didn't stop him from creating fiction that was based in the Realms. Similarly the sale of the Realms to TSR was not a "D&D Setting" only sale, as the concurrent publishing of the first Moonshae novels shows. Those novels were set in the Realms and the Moonshae's themselves were included as part of the setting with the release of the Gray Box set. From the start, the Realms were a setting for use in playing D&D and as a backdrop for novel fiction. We just pretty much said the same thing....:confused: Also though back in the day it was better balanced as both but has been seemingly thrown away.
Selvarin 10-30-07, 01:11 AM	I suppose my greatest concern is my deep-seated fear of the unknown. Which isn't at all helped by what I already know. Earlier someone called AGHotR a bad movie trailer, I disagree, movie trailers don't let you in on the end of the movie. The question that's been tugging at me is "whats the motivation?" Really, what is it? I can't help but wonder if this isn't a Time of Troubles ReDux, which really doesn't bother me all that much (I loved the time of troubles), but really, really bothers me; when 5th edition comes out will there be yet ANOTHER cataclysmic death-orgy? Is this becoming a trend? Do the guys in marketing go "Oop! Looks like another edition is on the horizon, get to writin' boys, this is gonna be a big one" when this sort of stuff comes up? Are they banking on the past success of a previous framework (that also met with serious opposition, but ultimately ended well for most everyone, if I recall) in hopes of a repeat performance? If so, are they so confident in their own abilities that the go ahead and give us the so-called 'juicy bits' ahead of time? The point of it is that they knew a mountain of FR fans would be livid upon picking up the new 4e FR book in August 2008 only to find, X,Y,Z, etc. slashed and burned to the ground. Better to get everyone in a lather well before it's buying time. By then some angry gamers will be over it, accept, and fork over $30-$40. Besides, they need more audience members. If it pulls in more people who disliked the Realms for what it was before the changes then it's a net bonus. More new fans = no cuts = happy paid designers. And so on. So a tip of the hat to Rich for letting us in on it. We now know whether we want to stick around for the next car or find another mode of transportation. And, if I may say so...if some people on the team don't necessarily agree with the changes themselves (regardless of what's been said publicly), the fans' displeasure concerning certain things provides ammo for shifting some rationales. We may even be pleasantly surprised to find that the FR Traveland motorthome hasn't been converted to a short bus with stubby tires.
Charles Phipps 10-30-07, 05:43 PM	One thing I do have to ask..... Why the Hell do fans take it so personally every time an RPG company releases a new book set?
Selvarin 10-30-07, 06:16 PM	Hmm, why do people get ticked when their favorite protagonist (or villian) gets axed in a novel? Why do people get idgity when it looks like their favorite show's been canceled or where, just for the heck of it, writers drop something in the middle and it's like, "Hey get used to it."...? Let us ponder all the other situations where people get a little miffed about something they've invested into in some manner undergoes a serious set of changes. :twitch: If it's just a new set of books with a few new storylines, that's one thing. But this is more than that. Obviously people won't buy the books if they're just reprints, but some of this isn't as easy to ignore as, say, the idea of Thayan enclaves or mad Karanoks with their entropy stuff, or the quasi-gargoyle types who hate the gods.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-30-07, 06:19 PM	One thing I do have to ask..... Why the Hell do fans take it so personally every time an RPG company releases a new book set? Errr, I think there's a lot more to it than you are making it out to be.
Charles Phipps 10-30-07, 06:19 PM	Errr, I think there's a lot more to it than you are making it out to be. No, I'm not referring to the Realms. I'm referring to every time there's a new edition from 2nd, 3rd, 3.5, and now 4th that fans raise Hell over it. Its the same damn thing amongst Call of Cthulhu fans.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-30-07, 06:21 PM	No, I'm not referring to the Realms. I'm referring to every time there's a new edition from 2nd, 3rd, 3.5, and now 4th that fans raise Hell over it. Its the same damn thing amongst Call of Cthulhu fans. Well. As far as new editions go, I don't care all that much. Rules are rules--I've found I can adapt to new ones. I don't care much for drastic changes in the actual FR setting though.
Charles Phipps 10-30-07, 06:22 PM	Which isn't what I'm asking about. Mostly, I'm appalled by the fact that everyone seems to go to the money insult.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-30-07, 06:27 PM	Which isn't what I'm asking about. Mostly, I'm appalled by the fact that everyone seems to go to the money insult. What particular insult would that be?
MarkusTay63 10-30-07, 06:33 PM	No one minds spending money on something they enjoy, but when asked to spend money on a new edition simply becasue the company needs to stay afloat is just sad. Not that that is what's happening here, but amongst the pro-4e crowd many folks are saying to buy into it no matter what. I pride myself on being an educated consumer. I do not buy new cars every two or three years like some people - I drive them into the ground. I've owned two, and drove both for nearly 15 years. When monthly maintainance costs start to beome more then car payments, then I start shopping for a new one. I haven't yet driven 3e FR into the ground, it still 'runs fine', so why bother with the new material? I'm not going to purchase something I can't use. If they had continued producing sourcebooks for the current iteration of the Realms, then I would have gladly continued to plunk down my money for them. Like any relationship - if it's not meeting my needs I move on. Dragging things out just leads to emotional anguish - something I certainly don't need from a game. I find my current 'love' comfortable, so I'll stick with what I know, Thank You. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-30-07, 06:52 PM	Like any relationship - if it's not meeting my needs I move on. Dragging things out just leads to emotional anguish - something I certainly don't need from a game. I found my current 'love' comfortable, so I'll stick with what I know, Thank You. ;) Exactly. WotC isn't entitled to anyone's money. If WotC wants my money, they'll have to put out products I enjoy. That's not an insult, not a threat, just a simple, bare-faced fact of life.
Charles Phipps 10-30-07, 07:25 PM	I compare it to "World War HulK" and Marvel's "Civil War" (or any of the other events). Every year, WOTC and formerly TSR must create elaborate and big events "THE DEATH OF CAPTAIN AMERICA" to encourage buyers to pick up the issue.
MarkusTay63 10-30-07, 08:18 PM	I don't understand why companies feel this way. :( We don't need RSEs, and they certainly don't need them to sell products. A well-made product should sell itself, not rely on 'cheap gimmicks'. The key word in 'Creativity' is "creation". There is NOTHING creative about destruction. The old designers didn't have to tear stuff apart to keep us facinated, they respected what has gone before and built upon it. Whatever... what shall come to pass shall come to pass, and we can talk about it until we are blue in the face. I just hope they do a decent job of it. Thats really all I ask.
Selvarin 10-30-07, 08:31 PM	Sometimes stuff has to burned down before something new can take its place. *shrug* And in some respects it's logical to want to clear some of the brush out. Still, some of this pruning is less about FR 'needing' it and more about making it fit into a more generic mold. Oh well, in another 5-7 years they'll turn around and add most of it back. No 'mea culpa', just recognizing where they're at may be well away from where the fans are. It's a moving target. If people's vision diverges that far away from the gurus-in-charge's then there will be a shift. Maybe. Anyhow, there's a library's worth of material to draw from. We can now choose between 'Classic' and (in the future) 'Extra-Crispy' Realms. :P
MarkusTay63 10-30-07, 08:34 PM	Or Barbecue. :P That would be 'heavily modified' Realms (or FR meets Homebrew), like mine. :dancin:
Selvarin 10-30-07, 08:43 PM	Then there's Curried, Sauteed....*thinks*...'Sushi' Realms, even? Or maybe Al Dente.
Charles Phipps 10-30-07, 08:51 PM	We don't need RSEs, and they certainly don't need them to sell products. A well-made product should sell itself, not rely on 'cheap gimmicks'. Well, truth sells. I don't buy regular Marvel comics. Only events.
johnkretzer 10-30-07, 08:59 PM	Well, truth sells. I don't buy regular Marvel comics. Only events. I don't buy Mavel anymore because of the EVENTS. And I haven't continueing buying the FR because of the EVENTS. Personaly these big events always seem to detract from the beauty of it as a RPG setting.
Dark Wizard 10-30-07, 10:22 PM	I get comics if I think the story is good, whether it's the regular series or some crossover event.
MarkusTay63 10-30-07, 11:54 PM	Then there's Curried, Sauteed....*thinks*...'Sushi' Realms, even? Or maybe Al Dente.No, no, no... You're ruining the Kentucky Fried Chicken analogy now. :P There's only - Original Flavor Extra Crispy and Barbecue Those 'other cuisines' would be other settings, in this analogy. And yeah to the above statemnet - if it's good, I buy it. I usually ask around amongst people I know have similar tastes to mine, so I have about a 90% success rate with my purchases. That means I'm usually not the 'first kid on the block' with a shiney new toy, but at least I get stuff after they work out the bugs. ;)
Stigger 10-31-07, 02:08 AM	Interesting... I generally thought of the Realms as a place to set my own stories, and didn't give much thought to the 'official' story as anything other than backdrop, stuff happening 'over there'. Hell, that's most of the reason I don't follow the novels, they just don't matter in my Realms. If I like the idea from one I can certainly adapt it for the PCs, or run it as a sideline that the PCs observe or become involved in as a tangent, but that's a pretty rare occurrance for me. To my mind, the Realms are a setting, a place to adventure in, and most certainly not a story to passively watch unfold around me. Really, that should ideally be the idea behind any campaign setting. Small changes that won't affect the world I've built for my campaigns is what I would prefer, leaving the big stuff to me to implement as the DM. With 3e I could happily ignore the Shadow Weave and the Shades thing by and large, since it really didn't alter the world all that much beyond a couple of details, and most of those I could find some other way to explain that fit my campaign better should I choose to use them. This 4e change doesn't look like its going to allow that style, so it really has no place in my gaming group as far as I'm concerned, and hence that is my major problem with it. Now as to whether or not I have a right to complain publicly about this, I would say I do so long as WotC allows me to access their boards and doesn't tell me otherwise. If they tell me not to, well, in all honesty they run this place as a convenient, but certainly not requisite service to the community, and I'll abide by their rules since its their property in the first place. But until WotC tells me to shut up, I don't see why I shouldn't excercise my options and complain about what I feel is a terrible idea. Its as simple as that.
Mr_Miscellany 10-31-07, 03:44 AM	The old designers didn't have to tear stuff apart to keep us fascinated, they respected what has gone before and built upon it. That's a generalization that many, many individuals who have come before you would absolutely disagree with. The 2E to 3E transition saw the exact same baseless, "...these new people don't respect the Realms like the old designers did!" whining we're seeing now. Prior to that the Time of Troubles in its entirety stands in stark contrast to your generalization. This is me, keeping the rose-colored glasses off, and thus keeping it real. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Getting back to msatran’s opening post: Exegesis....to explain, or interpret. Fine, I’ll do a little of both. Firstly, while msatran uses the word “corporate” and I often use “business”, neither word should be misconstrued as having a different meaning or connotation than the other. The Forgotten Realms from the beginning (1987) were created and have been shaped from a business standpoint. From that time forward this has never been not the case. This is because the Realms, once purchased by TSR, were intended to became a property that would be sold to gamers in the form of a D&D campaign setting, which would stand alongside TSR’s other setting products of the time (Dragonlance and Greyhawk). As a newly minted Dungeons and Dragons setting first and foremost, the Forgotten Realms quite naturally were subject to the D&D rules set, and not surprisingly have been since before the setting was sold to TSR (see Ed Greenwood’s many thoughtful articles prior to 1987 in Dragon Magazine for examples of how he modified the Realms to fit D&D’s rules). The D&D rules set, as game designers and players have all recognized over time, has always been in need of improvement. The many editions of the game are TSR's and now WotC's attempts at improving D&D. It follows that the Realms will always change as the D&D rules set changes. Down the years this has always proven to be the case, whether the changes were made in-setting and in dramatic, world-shaking fashion(the ToT and the Spellplague for 1E to 2E and 3E to 4E, respectively) or minimally in-setting and in the background (2E to 3E). What hasn’t changed is the propensity for a vocal minority of setting fans and gamers to use the avenues of communication available to them to always make known repeatedly and as nauseam their displeasure at any and all such changes regardless of the actual level of ‘severity’ of each transition as made by the Realms from one rules set to another. Moving away from that last point, the Realms are also a setting that was and is meant to be built upon by numerous creators, and not just one (see my sig for a snippet of the original ‘mission statement’ of the Realms). As time has passed, some of what’s been written for the Realms by these many creators (including material by its original creator) have shown to be a detriment to the setting, have become outdated as the rules sets change, or have been at least been perceived as detrimental by whichever current group of individuals (read: that era’s FR Design Team) was responsible for shepherding the Realms from one rules set to the next. And so with each transition between rules sets, we also see changes made to the Realms proper that extend beyond what must be changed in the setting to accommodate the newest rules set. Again, it is important to recognize there are two kinds of changes that take place during each rules transition: setting changes due to rules revisions, and setting changes to clean up the setting. Just as well, these changes are all of them business decisions. As such they are internally reviewed, criticized, revised and ultimately approved by the larger corporate body within WotC (and TSR prior) responsible for overseeing the Realms as a product. No major decision regarding the Realms is made in a vacuum. Ever. (Unfortunately almost no one appears to understand this.) Therefore it is a fallacy to single out any one FR game designer (or novel author, for that matter) and claim a major change to the Realms is “that person’s fault.” Similar criticisms that use any number of personalizations about game designers, novel authors and WotC as a whole are thus by their nature wholly subjective and should be recognized as without factual merit by any discerning individual who seriously attempts to comprehend the logic and reasoning of such criticisms. Stigger’s last post is a great example of how non-personalized criticism works (and therefore can be taken seriously).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-31-07, 11:29 AM	And I have to agree with what Stigger wrote (again): To my mind, the Realms are a setting, a place to adventure in, and most certainly not a story to passively watch unfold around me. Exactly, and that's why so many people, myself included, dislike the constant stream of RSEs.